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You are here: Home / Now What, Senator Conrad?

Now What, Senator Conrad?

by John Cole|  August 17, 20097:22 pm| 82 Comments

This post is in: Assholes, Democratic Stupidity

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At some point, these folks are going to learn that no matter what happens, the Republicans are not going to vote for ANYTHING. As soon as they kill off the public option, they will pick off co-ops. Think I’m kidding? They managed to convince people that voluntarily talks with your doctor about a living will was a death panel killing grandma.

They are going to do everything they can to kill health care, because they know that if reform succeeds they will be out of office for generations. Figure it out, blue dogs.

*** Update ***

And right on cue, Freedomworks alum Pete Suderman advances the ball using Sully’s blog, linking to the American Spectator explaining that even if co-ops aren’t the public option, they’re still socialism. And remember, McMegan is on record against any health care reform, no matter what.

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Reader Interactions

82Comments

  1. 1.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 17, 2009 at 7:26 pm

    They are going to do everything they can to kill health care, because they know that if reform succeeds they will be out of office for generations.

    Bottom line in a (wing)nut shell.

  2. 2.

    Max

    August 17, 2009 at 7:30 pm

    I still believe there will be a public option. I think the media is suffering from a slow news August and trying to gin up something.

    Gibsy today, when asked…

    Reacting to reports the public option is dead, Gibbs said: “I got to tell you, this is one of the more curious things I’ve ever seen in my life. I was on a Sunday show, I said the same thing about a public option that I’ve said for I don’t know how many weeks. The Secretary reiterated what the President said the day before, and you’d think there was some new policy.”

    In other words… “nothing has changed”.

    But, the republicans have sure showed their hand today…. I’m looking at you Grassley.

  3. 3.

    Zifnab

    August 17, 2009 at 7:30 pm

    There are three House bills and one Senate bill, all with Public Option in them. I just don’t get how we came to the conclusion that the votes aren’t there. The Republicans are actively distancing themselves, at every opportunity, from even the most conservative Democrats. The “Third Way” folks are getting left out in the cold, and joining the GOP on this makes about as much sense as dropping trow for a rabid grizzly bear.

    As Grassley and the rest charge wrecklessly off into the right wing wilderness, what do Conrad and Baucus think they are going to do? What toxic mutant mockery of a health care bill are they planning to lead out of committee with the expectation that it’ll get any votes?

    I’d like to see Obama line these puppies up. Put the Senate Finance Bill on the floor and let the Progressives vote their conscience. When all the Republicans walk away and some of the Progressive Dems walk away, and the bill fails 30-70, maybe then someone will wake up and realize the Third Way bullshit is a dead end.

    Then put a real bill through Reconciliation and pass the damn thing with 50 + Joe Biden. And laugh your way all the way to the ballot box in 2010.

  4. 4.

    BombIranForChrist

    August 17, 2009 at 7:33 pm

    I am not sure if we’re allowed to post links here, but Digby highlights a point Sabato made today … that it is possible the Dems will lose 20 seats in the next election, but they may be all Blue Dogs.

    And will that be a bad thing?

  5. 5.

    Elizabelle

    August 17, 2009 at 7:35 pm

    Agreed, John.

    I think Obama was reluctant to go to the mat with 51 votes (as Howard Dean suggested) because Americans were so tired of being steamrolled by the Bush administration.

    I’ve seen his conciliation as talking over the head of GOP politicians to those voters who usually supported Republicans (before that party went off the rails). You know, the expanded “independents” category.

    But losing the public option is too great a price to pay.

    I would love to know what Byron Dorgan, North Dakota’s other senator, thinks of his colleague’s “compromise.”

    Granted, health co-ops are a huge step in the right direction. But you’re correct that they’re not likely to escape unscathed either.

    Roll ’em. **ck ’em. Go without the GOP and recalcitrant Blue Dogs if you must.

    Pains me to say that. But it will hurt more to lose this opportunity to strengthen healthcare and our fiscal future.

  6. 6.

    pcbedamned

    August 17, 2009 at 7:35 pm

    If anyone has taken the time to read any of the right-wing blogs, the WHOLE PURPOSE of opposing ANY BILL is to shut Obama down. They don’t care about anything that is actually in the bills…they just want to see Obama defeated in any way possible. And with all of the bi*ching going on in the left about their disappointment in Obama, it gives them fuel for the fire. To them, the left now sees that they have indeed elected an ’empty suit – and we told you so’. The left’s disappointment is looked upon as victory. I used to be a regular over at H*t A*r, (until they went completely batshit crazy – kinda like J.C.), that I know of what I speak. You are playing right into their hands…

  7. 7.

    Jay in Oregon

    August 17, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    And will that be a bad thing?

    Only because the punditocracy and Fox News will paint it as “voters, angry over a proposed government takeover of the healthcare system, punishing the Democrats”.

    You know I’m right.

  8. 8.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 17, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    @Zifnab:

    and joining the GOP on this makes about as much sense as dropping trow for a rabid grizzly bear.

    I’m wondering if somehow they hope Obama gives up on the PO and they won’t run the risk of getting strung up by the teabaggers in their district..

    Because If Obama doesn’t officially do so before it’s voting time, they will be forced to decide between facing the rabid wingnut mobs, or putting down the donkey that brutt them to the dance.

  9. 9.

    b-psycho

    August 17, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    @Zifnab: Hey, Grizzly bear pr0n could make you some money online…

  10. 10.

    DaBomb

    August 17, 2009 at 7:42 pm

    @Max: Yep. He’s right. As I have said on other blogs today, what Sebelius said is nothing new. She has said this several times before.

    But by all of the fanning church lady action, you would think that angels just flew out of Limbaugh’s ass speaking of the second coming of Allah.

    But as I have, just sit back and enjoy the ride. Social progress and civil rights don’t comes easy, and it’s usually a long battle.

  11. 11.

    DaBomb

    August 17, 2009 at 7:46 pm

    @pcbedamned: I believe that, the AP just published another story about how, the left is enraged with Obama. Don’t think that Drudge, picked that up and ran with it.

    We are just feeding the frenzy.

  12. 12.

    joe from Lowell

    August 17, 2009 at 7:49 pm

    I think the GOPers shot their wad. Obama is just now launching his counter-attack. He’s pretty good at that – in fact, ever since the campaign, counter-punching is what he done best.

    This isn’t even close to over.

  13. 13.

    Tsulagi

    August 17, 2009 at 7:51 pm

    Appropriate tag, “Democratic Stupidity.”

    Dems will keep chasing bipartisanship down that bottomless rabbit hole. In the end, majority of Pubs will vote against anything that is left.

    Next year for the midterms they’ll be claiming it was only them keeping the Dems from establishing death panels to whack granny and from killing the unborn. That if it weren’t for them, THE BEST HEALTHCARE IN THE WORLD would have been lost. Vote Republican to keep Karl Marx from choosing your doctor!

    For the general in ’12, they’ll use that too. And if there is anything in whatever health care bill passes and Obama signs that is perceived as a benefit or one that could be spun, Pubs will take credit for it.

  14. 14.

    Makewi

    August 17, 2009 at 7:55 pm

    Figure it out, blue dogs.

    They have, and even if you are willing to ignore the actual concerns over the underlying issues of the so-called death panels, the constituents of those blue dogs are not. The other side of this coin, and the one that you can’t seem to get your head around, is that if the Dems pass something without any GOP support and it makes the situation worse, which is a distinct possibility, then it won’t be the GOP out in the cold, it will be the Dems.

  15. 15.

    joes527

    August 17, 2009 at 7:56 pm

    @pcbedamned:

    They don’t care about anything that is actually in the bills

    That can’t be repeated enough. That’s what made the whole death panels thing so infuriating. No one – No One — NO ONE gave a rats ass about the provision in the bill. Those few folks on the right who HAD thought about that sort of thing were on the record as being in favour of the coverage.

    The whole death panel flap was about beating the democrats when the republicans demonstrably had nothing, and even the idiot MSM was telling the truth. True to form, the democrats caved.

    The content of the bill has not made, does not make, will continue to not make a stitch of difference. Democratic concessions are completely meaningless. This is all about republicans demonstrating that democrats are their bitch. And it is working for them.

    You are playing right into their hands

    Yeah well, they can bite my shiny metal ass. I have no feel for how well/poorly Obama is playing this. He is the executive, not the legislature, though he does have a role and he has been a part of what has happened to date.

    Congressional democrats however have clearly done as much to fuel the fail train as the republicans. Any thought that we can hide the spinelessness of our own from Hot Air by just not mentioning it here is nuts.

  16. 16.

    bleh

    August 17, 2009 at 7:59 pm

    Oh, they have. And they know you never stand up for anything until you have no alternative.

    How many votes have been taken outside of committees? OTOH, how many stories have been written about the “power” of the Blue Dogs? How sweet is it to be seen by your constituents — and maybe even the White House — as indispensable, before you even have to say which side you’re on?

    The real question is, when push comes to shove — on cloture in the Senate, and on reconciliation in both houses — will Rahm threaten to support primary opponents and/or sit out general elections in 2010?

  17. 17.

    bleh

    August 17, 2009 at 8:01 pm

    Jeez, what happened to the blockquote? Should be:

    Figure it out, Blue Dogs

  18. 18.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 17, 2009 at 8:07 pm

    and the one that you can’t seem to get your head around, is that if the Dems pass something without any GOP support and it makes the situation worse, which is a distinct possibility, then it won’t be the GOP out in the cold, it will be the Dems.

    No one here has said that, I don’t think. Of course that’s big boy rules, it is why we rallied the faithful to give dems such a huge majority and the WH. It’s a risk, as are most worthwhile things in life. And one made necessary by a collapsing status quo system. If it were to fail then the onus will lie upon us, and if it succeeds, the credit also.

    I also think if nothing is done, dems will get the blame when the bottom falls out of our healthcare system as it is. For the simple reason we have the numbers to do it alone. This is what we are trying to convince our timid reps of.

  19. 19.

    jwb

    August 17, 2009 at 8:10 pm

    @BombIranForChrist: If wingnuts replace the blue dogs, then yes, it is a bad thing.

  20. 20.

    jwb

    August 17, 2009 at 8:12 pm

    @DaBomb: “We are just feeding the frenzy.”

    You sound surprised.

  21. 21.

    jwb

    August 17, 2009 at 8:15 pm

    @Makewi: The Dems will be far worse off not passing anything than passing something that sucks, because the suckage won’t be immediately apparent, whereas not passing anything will. That’s why I’m convinced the Dems will pass something. The jury is still out whether it will be good, ok, or completely suck.

  22. 22.

    Makewi

    August 17, 2009 at 8:15 pm

    Of course that’s big boy rules, it is why we rallied the faithful to give dems such a huge majority and the WH.

    Except that’s really not how it went down. The Dems have such a huge majority for the simple reason that the GOP sucked so massively that the idea of voting for them was repulsive. That and the historical opportunity to elect the first black POTUS.

    So far, the Dems have not been proving themselves worthy, and the situation could easily reverse itself. I know it might seem weird to you, but the moderates in this country (40% voting block) can just as easily pull the level for either party and given the fact that conservatives outnumber liberals by something like 2 to 1, progressive politics will always be seen as fighting an uphill battle. Because it is.

  23. 23.

    bvac

    August 17, 2009 at 8:18 pm

    You know what, it’s the middle of August and no one gives a shit what’s happening right now. In a few months they won’t even remember what happened, then something Important will happen that will command peoples attention, and the Democrats will have another chance at making this happen.

  24. 24.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 17, 2009 at 8:20 pm

    The Dems have such a huge majority for the simple reason that the GOP sucked so massively

    It’s our secret weapon, Buckwheat/

  25. 25.

    Makewi

    August 17, 2009 at 8:23 pm

    @jwb:

    I agree that they will pass something. I highly doubt it will contain a public option and I highly doubt it will contain anything that actually provides for the prevention of denial of claims. It might amount to expanding of Medicare.

    Which will, given Bush’s Medicare part D, make Obama the almost exactly the Bush part 2 that so many were calling McCain during the election.

    Then again, I cannot actually see into the future and I may be wrong.

    Some states require insurance companies to pool the uninsurable for car insurance, as a way to ensure everyone has car insurance and to allow the risk to be spread by those who would not be willing to take it on themselves. Is there anything like this being proposed for health care?

  26. 26.

    Andrew

    August 17, 2009 at 8:25 pm

    The Dems have such a huge majority for the simple reason that the GOP sucked so massively that the idea of voting for them was repulsive. That and the historical opportunity to elect the first black POTUS.

    Citation needed.

  27. 27.

    Andrew

    August 17, 2009 at 8:27 pm

    Is there anything like this being proposed for health care?

    Yes, it’s called the public option, where the uninsurable are pooled into an public insurance plan; this allows the risk to be spread by those who weren’t able or willing to take it on themselves.

  28. 28.

    Tsulagi

    August 17, 2009 at 8:34 pm

    @Makewi:

    The Dems have such a huge majority for the simple reason that the GOP sucked so massively

    Yep.

    the moderates in this country (40% voting block) can just as easily pull the level for either party

    Yep.

    Problem, though, for the Goopers is that after their Big Bang of Tardation they just keep expanding. See evidence like waving numberless 19-page federal budgets, word salad speeches from leading “conservatives” like Palin, R-govs going AWOL on soulmate recon missions, etc.

  29. 29.

    Alyson

    August 17, 2009 at 8:39 pm

    AP headline sums it up:

    Health care concession riles left; right unmoved

  30. 30.

    Andrew

    August 17, 2009 at 8:39 pm

    Problem, though, for the Goopers is that after their Big Bang of Tardation they just keep expanding. See evidence like waving numberless 19-page federal budgets, word salad speeches from leading “conservatives” like Palin, R-govs going AWOL on soulmate recon missions, etc.

    That’s true. Even assuming Makewi is correct and the only reason Democrats are ascendant is because Republicans are giant, sucking, gaping, stupid assholes, that formulation just indicates an even greater Democratic majority in 2010.

  31. 31.

    Anne Laurie

    August 17, 2009 at 8:40 pm

    John, if it’s any consolation, remember that most Republicans & their Blue Dog allies thought the “Terri Shiavo Amendment” was going to be a giant candy-box fruit-basket-with-pineapple WIN for Brand Rethuglican(tm). How’d that work out for them, again?

    @BombIranForChrist:

    I am not sure if we’re allowed to post links here, but Digby highlights a point Sabato made today … that it is possible the Dems will lose 20 seats in the next election, but they may be all Blue Dogs.
    …
    And will that be a bad thing?

    It’s too much for a girl to dream of, but I like the way you think!

    P.S. We *can* post links, no more than two per post, as long as WordPress isn’t having one of its “spells”. According to Mr. Cole, the site is being re-designed from the ground up even as I type. So we live in hope that one day we’ll even get back the cheater buttons that let HTML incompetents like me post comments without pruffing them seventy-leven times first.

  32. 32.

    Alyson

    August 17, 2009 at 8:53 pm

    pcbedamned:

    Making decisions based on what the wingnuts are going to say is a completely reactive posture. Obama won the election, I believe, by being active, or at least assuming that posture. If he wants to be a great president instead of an empty suit, he needs to focus on action and you know, do something.

  33. 33.

    John S.

    August 17, 2009 at 8:56 pm

    I may be wrong

    Considering all the nonsense you spew, this is most certainly a foregone conclusion.

  34. 34.

    Mike in NC

    August 17, 2009 at 8:59 pm

    I cannot actually see into the future and I may be wrong.

    Humility duly noted, Nostradamus.

  35. 35.

    Makewi

    August 17, 2009 at 8:59 pm

    @Andrew:

    I see you didn’t understand the question.

    @Tsulagi

    You may be right, but the Dems have their own set of pressing issues to deal with. First, unemployment is rising and no party is going to retain power for long with close to 10% out of work. Second, this administration has overseen a massive spending spree for which you would be hard pressed to point to a tangible positive result. Third, the Dems should have easily passed things like Cap & Trade and health care reform given how large their majorities are, but they have stumbled by writing bills which are as potentially harmful to the voters as they are helpful. Last, Obama and the Dems may talk a good game but the promises they made on their way into DC have not been lived up to.

  36. 36.

    Andrew

    August 17, 2009 at 9:11 pm

    I see you didn’t understand the question.

    Oh, I understand it just fine. The only difference between what you were asking about and what the public option is, is what entity is administering the pooling.

  37. 37.

    arguingwithsignposts

    August 17, 2009 at 9:18 pm

    Does anyone know when these reforms are going to come online? The projections were for 2013 at the earliest. Any way you slice it, that’s a far spell into the future.

  38. 38.

    TuiMel

    August 17, 2009 at 9:18 pm

    I called Senator Conrad’s office today to ask if his comments on national television regarding “needing 60 votes” and “not having 60 votes” meant the good Senator would be supporting a Republican filibuster of any bill that had a public option. Person on the other end said she could not “speak for the Senator” but would take my comments. I told her that it galls me that a Senator from North Dakota would not permit a bill with a public option even come to a vote – particularly since both my Senators (Cantwell and Murray) had come out in support of a public options – particularly since the President supports it. I said I thought the Obama’s party should allow a public option its vote. If Conrad wants to vote “no” once on it is on the floor, he is, of course, free to sail on. But, I did not like some North Dakota Senator putting the screws to Seattle residents like me.

    Members of the Senate keep saying it takes 60 votes and we don’t have 60 votes. Instead of being inspired to make Ted Kennedy’s dream happen in his absence due to illness, they hide behind it. Cowards. Every.Effing.One of them.

  39. 39.

    Shygetz

    August 17, 2009 at 9:19 pm

    @Makewi:

    Which will, given Bush’s Medicare part D, make Obama the almost exactly the Bush part 2 that so many were calling McCain during the election.

    Yeah, because independents were taking to the streets over Medicare part D. The Justice Department is roiling over the controversy of whether or not to investigate the handling of Medicare part D. Exit polls clearly showed that when people voted in ’06 and ’08, the number one thing on their mind was Medicare part D.

    I’m sorry, but this comment alone should put you in commenting time-out for the remainder of the night.

  40. 40.

    WereBear

    August 17, 2009 at 9:19 pm

    @General Winfield Stuck: I salute you, General!

  41. 41.

    Makewi

    August 17, 2009 at 9:20 pm

    @Andrew:

    One agency cannot pool. A pool would necessitate the inclusion of more than one insurer. Which I spelled out in my initial question. Maybe you should read more carefully in the future.

  42. 42.

    Makewi

    August 17, 2009 at 9:24 pm

    @Shygetz:

    You may not be smart enough to understand what was being said there. Angry and partisan you got, but this comparison, which has nothing to do with elections or people with opinions, but rather has to do with outcomes, somehow eludes you.

  43. 43.

    Joshua Norton

    August 17, 2009 at 9:28 pm

    Weren’t these the same people whinging about everything being a nail? They can’t help themselves. They obviously don’t even know what social ism really is, but they still use it as a hammer to pound every issue.

    Since all they can handle is 10 second sound bites, I’ll keep this simple.

    Under social ism, goods and services are owned and controlled by the government rather than by private enterprise. The health reform proposals do not advocate government ownership of hospitals or require doctors and nurses to work for the government. Instead, they allow the private delivery system and private insurance to remain but offer a public plan as an option.

    If somebody is going to say the public plan option is social ism, then that person is the same whack-a-doo who would think Medicare is social ism.

  44. 44.

    Andrew

    August 17, 2009 at 9:30 pm

    One agency cannot pool. A pool would necessitate the inclusion of more than one insurer. Which I spelled out in my initial question. Maybe you should read more carefully in the future.

    Pooling of risk only requires the presence of a pool. It does not require, in any way, shape, or form, multiple insurers.

  45. 45.

    cleek

    August 17, 2009 at 9:31 pm

    They are going to do everything they can to kill health care, because they know that …

    it will weaken Obama. DeMint has admitted this openly. take his word for it.

    it will embolden the GOP and depress the Dems. and it’s working, as you can plainly see just by reading blogs.

    this is entirely about getting a Republican in the White House in 2012.

  46. 46.

    Andrew

    August 17, 2009 at 9:38 pm

    Or rather, to be clear, whose risk do you want to pool? The insurance companies’, or that of the insured?

    It seems plainly obvious to me that you’re talking about an initiative which is focused on reducing the insurance companies’ exposure to risk when they insure the “uninsurable”, thus making them more likely to want to insure.

    You accomplish the exact same effect by just pooling all of that “uninsurable” risk in a different, single pool, instead of simply connecting disparate pools and hoping that somehow increases their volume appreciably.

    So, in short, while the public option might not please you ideologically, it seems fits the sort of outcome you favor.

  47. 47.

    Thad

    August 17, 2009 at 9:44 pm

    Yeah, those evil co-ops are a commie plot all right… we also need to stomp out credit unions and farmers markets before the red tide sweeps away our democracy. :-/

  48. 48.

    Makewi

    August 17, 2009 at 9:45 pm

    @Andrew:

    Wrong. But feel free to simply redefine terms rather than trying to learn something. I mean pizza and cheeseburgers are both round foodstuffs so if the customer doesn’t like him he can get stuffed, right?

    An insurance pool is a group of insurance companies that pool their assets in order to share the loss potential of insuring large risks such as .. source

  49. 49.

    Makewi

    August 17, 2009 at 9:47 pm

    @Andrew:

    What should seem obvious to you, is that you are talking out your ass instead of trying to learn something. I see that as a long term problem for you, potentially.

  50. 50.

    jcricket

    August 17, 2009 at 10:08 pm

    And remember, McMegan is on record against any health care reform, no matter what.

    Her basic argument is “Some say there will be less innovation, and if you can’t prove otherwise, there will obviously be less, and that’s bad, and that makes healthcare reform bad, no matter what else it accomplishes.”

    Leaving aside the inability of proving a negative, I’ve noticed that no matter how many times her commenters school her on how innovation actually happens and how pharma actually works, it doesn’t matter – she never cedes ground or admits she was wrong.

    So to sum up: Megan, wrong on the facts, wrong on the hypothetical/theoretical level and falls victim to common logical fallacies.

    Why again is she to be listened to?

  51. 51.

    Midnight Marauder

    August 17, 2009 at 10:10 pm

    @Makewi:

    First, unemployment is rising and no party is going to retain power for long with close to 10% out of work.

    Unless they’re trying to do something about it, and the biggest thing standing in their way are Obstructionist Assholes.

    Second, this administration has overseen a massive spending spree for which you would be hard pressed to point to a tangible positive result.

    I will take “The United States of America Not Collapsing On Itself Like A Dying Star The Past 7 Months” for $600, Alex.

    Third, the Dems should have easily passed things like Cap & Trade and health care reform given how large their majorities are, but they have stumbled by writing bills which are as potentially harmful to the voters as they are helpful.

    These majorities you speak of are also filled with plenty of Obstructionist Assholes cleverly disguised as Democrats. And “potentially harmful to the voters as they are helpful”? What the fuck are you talking about, son? Do you mean “death panels”? Please tell me you mean “death panels”. Please.

    Last, Obama and the Dems may talk a good game but the promises they made on their way into DC have not been lived up to.

    They’re working on it. That’s what all this hullabaloo is about, sport.

    Maybe you should pay more attention from now on.

  52. 52.

    Makewi

    August 17, 2009 at 10:26 pm

    @Midnight Marauder:

    Maybe you should pay more attention from now on.

    Oh, I’m paying attention. You know who else is? Guys like Tom Tomorrow. It’d be hard to label that guy as a wingnut, but I guess your going to have to give it your best shot.

    I do like your insistence on using the “its the other guys preventing me from being super awesome” gambit, especially since “the other guys” has such a broad definition these days.

  53. 53.

    El Cid

    August 17, 2009 at 10:29 pm

    To this day, I am still able to be shocked, after all I’ve seen, that this utterly useless piece of lazy shit McArdle manages to get major exposure simply because she’s the latest peer to blather on brainless faux libertarian anti-liberal screeds. I prefer to read exileD’s pointing out that she comes from a family entirely funded by public money.

  54. 54.

    slag

    August 17, 2009 at 10:33 pm

    And right on cue, Freedomworks alum Pete Suderman advances the ball using Sully’s blog, linking to the American Spectator explaining that even if co-ops aren’t the public option, they’re still socialism.

    This is what they do. It’s what they’ve always done. Interestingly, I’ve noticed this thing happening with a few lefties (OK, Paul Krugman) on their mainstream blogs. I’m always surprised when it happens though because I’m not used to it. There are so few “out” lefties in the establishment media that this kind of interlinking really is a rarity. For the right, however, it’s just business as usual.

  55. 55.

    slag

    August 17, 2009 at 10:34 pm

    Damn! So even if I blockquote your soci alism, I get moderated? Suckage.

  56. 56.

    cleek

    August 17, 2009 at 10:43 pm

    And remember, McMegan is on record against any health care reform, no matter what.

    who cares. treat her like the idiot she is. give her the same respect you’d give Pam Atlas or Althouse.

  57. 57.

    JMY

    August 17, 2009 at 10:53 pm

    I’m still trying to find out where it says that the public option is dead? The WH needs to better clarify their statements because people will assume what has been said over the weekend means that there is no public option and the media just runs with it. It’s the same with the end of life provisions because of one individuals statement, when there is no clear indication that it is off the table. The bill from the Senate Finance Committee is one of several bills that have to be put together, so even if that bill doesn’t have a public option, but a co-op or no end of life provisions, the house bill i believe does.

  58. 58.

    Midnight Marauder

    August 17, 2009 at 10:58 pm

    @Makewi:

    I do like your insistence on using the “its the other guys preventing me from being super awesome” gambit, especially since “the other guys” has such a broad definition these days.

    Thanks. I’m glad you dig it.

    And “the other guys” really isn’t that broad these days. It’s actually pretty easy to point out Intellectually Honest vs. Obstructionist Asshole. Sure, there’s a little gray in there, but for the most part, it’s pretty straightforward.

  59. 59.

    Ailuridae

    August 17, 2009 at 11:07 pm

    @Makewi:

    You don’t understand what you are talking about re insurance pooling. It doesn’t take multiple insurance firms pooling together it requires multiple businesses buying insurance as a group and, in most instances finding the best rate from multiple insurers. This is to spread the risk and cost associated with a single dire illness in a small firm causing that firms premiums to rise to the point the company can no longer compete. Insurance pooling is often done via a trade association.

    From Nation’s Business:

    “Insurers had come to evaluate small firms separately by such factors as claims experience, worker’s health status, and even type of business,” explained Nation’s Business. “As a result, many small companies couldn’t buy health insurance at any price. Those that did have coverage lived in fear of a single serious illness because it could trigger skyrocketing rates or cancellation of coverage.”

    So here is an example of how an insurance pool would work:

    Say there are 100 identical 20 person firms in a geographical area all in the same business. Each would intially likely receive the same relatively reasonable rate on insurance. Say 90 of those firms would have no catastrophic illnesses in a two year period and 10 do. Those ten firms rates would sky rocket and the other 90 would hold stable. But those ten firms were just victims of randomness that might run them out of business.

    If the same 100 firms pooled together to buy insurance from the same group of companies the likelihood that the rate of catastrophic illness for the entire 2000 person group would mirror society at large is substantially higher than it is for any of the 100 initial 20 person firms.

    How does pooling work for the public plan? Well the self-employed are firms of one. If you get cancer and are lucky enough to not be subject to recission you can see your rates quintiple in a year. You can’t move plans (pre-exisiting condition) so you are stuck taking it or doing what most people do and rejoin a corporation. If you are one of 6 million people in a new public insurance plan that wouldn’t happen as there is now a massive pool of people where your risk of getting cancer or having a complicated pregnancy etc is borne out equal to that of society as a whole or, more accurately your actuarial class/subset. So indeed there is pooling in the public plan.

  60. 60.

    Accidental Blogger

    August 17, 2009 at 11:08 pm

    “And remember, McMegan is on record against any health care reform, no matter what. ”

    I honest to God tried to read McCardle’s blog with an open mind, but all that got me was splitting headaches from beating my head against my desk. She’s not interesting, insightful or even a particularly good writer. She spouts libertarian catchphrases and pretends to be an economics expert. How this qualifies her to write for a storied magazine like the Atlantic is amazing. Her opinion should be given about as much weight as Miss California’s because its almost as well reasoned.

  61. 61.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 17, 2009 at 11:16 pm

    @Accidental Blogger:

    Did you read her post with the graph Showing that since there are more people since 1980, ispso more pets and more visits the the vet, and that vet bills have not increased more than person medical bills, it somehow proves that having 40 million uninsured persons doesn’t add to healthcare costs.

    I nearly gave myself a lobotomy trying to unwind that one.

  62. 62.

    ominira

    August 17, 2009 at 11:21 pm

    @Ailuridae: Nice explanation of pooling. I have a feeling someone is being deliberately obtuse though.

  63. 63.

    les

    August 17, 2009 at 11:35 pm

    totally OT, but intended helpfully.

    who is this makewi fool?

    I found a lovely Mozilla make that Firefox extension called Format Toolbar Composer that subs for the previously helpful commands for comments. It’s here.

    And why is anyone paying attention to makewi again? I mean, listen to that name.

  64. 64.

    les

    August 17, 2009 at 11:37 pm

    Huh. Even with the toolbar, strike doesn’t work. but links do.

  65. 65.

    Leo

    August 17, 2009 at 11:39 pm

    Makewi’s troubled relationship with language is a continuing theme here, I’ve noticed.

  66. 66.

    BDeevDad

    August 17, 2009 at 11:40 pm

    I pray this is a rope-a-dope strategy but feel it is not. It boggles my mind that people can believe the crap they do (birthers, anti-vaxers, 9/11 truthers, flat earthers, monn landing was fake, etc) but health care in the USA is just fine.

  67. 67.

    Morbo

    August 18, 2009 at 12:00 am

    Sullivan’s vacations are definitely serving a constructive purpose, weaning me off of reading his blog. I’m almost free.

  68. 68.

    Ailuridae

    August 18, 2009 at 12:19 am

    @ominira:

    Thanks. That explanation was as much for those commenting at large. Besides Ezra Klein nobody is really doing the nuts and bolts explanations of detailslike pooling. When I see someone make a claim as simply or to be charitable confused as makewi’s re: pooling and then have it go unanswered it makes me worry that many of those arguing for the public option aren’t really sure of the details either.

  69. 69.

    Midnight Marauder

    August 18, 2009 at 12:27 am

    @Morbo:

    Sullivan’s vacations are definitely serving a constructive purpose, weaning me off of reading his blog. I’m almost free.

    You know, I was just thinking the same thing earlier tonight. I feel like I started to check out on his blog at the beginning of the summer, and then once the string of “fill-ins” and “guest bloggers” started, strangely, my interest in the Dish seemed to drop more and more.

    And I’m not really bothered by it. Funny that.

  70. 70.

    Tonal Crow

    August 18, 2009 at 12:28 am

    @Makewi:

    Second, this administration has overseen a massive spending spree for which you would be hard pressed to point to a tangible positive result.

    Due to that spending, we narrowly avoided Great Depression II. How soon we forget.

  71. 71.

    Seanly

    August 18, 2009 at 1:00 am

    If the Republicans are unmoved by trial balloons about dropping the public option, then fuck it & keep it in there. How strong would the blue dogs be without DNC support?

    After reading about the issues with Sweden’s insurance overhaul (short version: no public option, government subsidies having to increase to help more & more as mandated private insurance rises much faster than inflation), anything without the public option will be a futile waste of time.

  72. 72.

    Andrew

    August 18, 2009 at 1:05 am

    What should seem obvious to you, is that you are talking out your ass instead of trying to learn something. I see that as a long term problem for you, potentially.

    The way I see it, the less I learn from you, the better. You’ve got about as much depth as a kid’s wading pool.

  73. 73.

    Anne Laurie

    August 18, 2009 at 2:34 am

    @Thad:

    Yeah, those evil co-ops are a commie plot all right… we also need to stomp out credit unions and farmers markets before the red tide sweeps away our democracy.

    The CEOs at Bank of America and Whole Foods could not agree more!

  74. 74.

    Anne Laurie

    August 18, 2009 at 2:40 am

    @jcricket:

    So to sum up: Megan, wrong on the facts, wrong on the hypothetical/theoretical level and falls victim to common logical fallacies.
    …
    Why again is she to be listened to?

    Hey, the Atlantic doesn’t pay you to be that wrong, that illiterately; ergo, McArdle must be worthier. The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is up Megan’s dress never wrong!

  75. 75.

    oh really

    August 18, 2009 at 3:57 am

    They are going to do everything they can to kill health care, because they know that if reform succeeds they will be out of office for generations.

    I don’t think there is any legislation on the table at this point that will yield anywhere near that kind of advantage for Democrats.

    …if reform succeeds…

    That means that Democrats would have to pass legislation that really did address and solve the problems our system has, which would require junking all the current bills and starting over.

  76. 76.

    Ambergris

    August 18, 2009 at 4:43 am

    A suggestion,
    now that it is clear that Grassley will not vote for his own bill even if it contains everything he wants (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/08/17/2032642.aspx), now that Senator Burr has demanded to keep the private sector private (which is probably a statement against non-profit co-ops – http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/17/14299/2252), and now that the insurance lobby and their handlers are even calling co-ops socialism,
    isn’t it clear that the insurance companies are allied with the republicans and will not accept any deal at all? Aren’t the only Republicans you can get on your side Olympia Snowe and maybe Susan Collins? Isn’t Olympia Snowe’s idea of a public option with a trigger (maybe co-ops as the base model?) the best, or even the only way to get to 60 votes? Progressives might expect the insurance companies to fail these standards, and so, a public option might be in reach, from their point of view. Co-op fans will trust their idea and so there will be no public option, from their point of view. That’s the only idea I see to get 58/59 Democratic votes and maybe 1 or 2 republican votes…

  77. 77.

    Michael D.

    August 18, 2009 at 7:12 am

    Suderman:

    I don’t want to suggest that the extremes of the right and left are perfectly equivalent — they’re not. But the left isn’t entirely immune to outbursts of crazy.

    I don’t think anyone here would say that the left hasn’t occasionally been a little nuts too. But we don’t usually bring guns.

    I’m just a little tired of all the crazy going on in the healthcare debate. I’m particularly tired of using the Canadian system as the great Boogyman.

    Hey! I survived a very delicate operation to remove a tumor from around the next portion of my spine. Further, I had bone removed from my hip to replace three vertebrae.

    I never once had to wait in line for an MRI, bone scan, or CT scan. I never once had to wait for the government to choose a doctor for me. We almost decided to come to the US for treatment, but that was because we wanted to see Disney. I don’t recall though, if I had to go in front of a death panel, although I my grandma was secretly killed off so that her health expense savings would balance out mine or something, as I was younger and more deserving.

    Hey, News people and Scaremongers (redundant, I know!) Want someone who’s very experienced with the Canadian healthcare system?

    Come talk to me!

  78. 78.

    El Cid

    August 18, 2009 at 7:46 am

    I don’t want to suggest that the extremes of the right and left are perfectly equivalent—they’re not. But the left isn’t entirely immune to outbursts of crazy.

    There are always individuals.

    As far as being representative of something seeming like an identifiable stream of arguments, I’d put the arguments of the left over the arguments of the right over the last 40 years any time you want.

  79. 79.

    tc125231

    August 18, 2009 at 9:22 am

    @Anne Laurie: Hehehe.

    McGerbil is always wrong. It’s something about an inability to follow the simplest train of reasoning.

    An economics blogger? I don’t think so….

  80. 80.

    zoe kentucky in pittsburgh

    August 18, 2009 at 9:52 am

    Everyone needs to take a deep breath– it’s mid-August. There is nothing else going on in the news, at least not according to the MSM. Typically they’re just looking for any signs of drama, yesterday for the better part of the evening CNN had a permanent headline about “democrats revolting against Obama” or something similar.

    The truth of the matter is that the GOP is probably getting really excited right now, not realizing that all of this won’t matter in a few weeks. However, the GOP has proven to the American public they won’t vote for anything– they are against reform. Even moderate GOPers who are would like to vote for it can’t and won’t because they know that in the next election they’ll get taken out by Club For Growth challenger accusing them of voting for genocide against grandmas.

    If we get a decent bill at the end of this what happened in August won’t matter. There is still time to turn this around, mostly we all need to calm down and stop hypervenilating.

  81. 81.

    DR

    August 18, 2009 at 10:27 am

    Second, this administration has overseen a massive spending spree for which you would be hard pressed to point to a tangible positive result.

    Well, you conservatives usually like to point to the stock market.

    Remember when the DOW was below 7,000?

  82. 82.

    rachel

    August 18, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    If it were up to teh sozialistic Canadian healthcare system, Michael D. would be dead by now! /IBD

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