Now that the Republicans have spent the last two months whipping the blue hairs into a froth about Obamacare ending their Medicare, how are Republicans going to pivot and become “fiscal conservatives” again concerned about out of control entitlements, now that they are completely wedded to Medicare as it is?
Oh, that is right. They will just completely flip-flop, pretend they never said anything the last few weeks, and the media will let them. And to be honest, I’m so sick of the behavior of seniors the last couple of weeks, I might just recommend that the Democrats join the Republicans in killing off medicare.
Then maybe the old folks will recognize the need for health care reform. At the very least, they might put down their “Keep government out of my medicare” signs.
GReynoldsCT00
pretty much…
matoko_chan
next after healthcare reform is immigration.
that will be hilarious to see the conservatives majorly sucking up to hispanics while the Rage-grampaw demographic goes medieval on their asses.
Calouste
Well, obviously, the Republicans are not going to end Medicare, they are just going to improve it by putting it in the hands of those guys from Wall Street with that excellent trrack record. Oh, and less regulation. And tax cuts.
Leelee for Obama
Wow. A few days off and you come back with the bitters? I would have thought there would be a bit more mellow. That being said, you are probably right!
It just cracks me up that the Rethugs may very well have painted themselves into a corner if the MSM FINALLY calls them on their bullshit.
Violet
Government run health care is BAD. So get rid of Medicare and everyone wins. Those seniors love the market so much, let them experience it’s greatness again! Let them go on the open market for health insurance.
Then a year from now, let’s have those death panel discussions again. I bet grandma’s tune would change somewhat, once she finds out what those insurance death panels are really like.
Gosh, I’m hard-hearted. But I’m effing sick of watching all those old people screaming about how the rest of us don’t deserve what they already have.
GReynoldsCT00
you read Ross Douche-hat today?
John Cole
@GReynoldsCT00: I quit reading him.
mcc
Note, Obama’s been quietly signaling he intends to tackle some sort of social security or medicare reform next year.
Max
So true. I got into an argument in line for a Health Care townhall with a senior who kept calling Obama “communist” etc. Of course, that doesn’t apply to his Medicare, which by the looks of him, he relies on heavily. It made my blood boil.
As a Gen X’er, who pays the maximum social security annually, I hate that I have to pay for something that I will never be able to benefit from. The Boomers will bankrupt SS long before I reach retirement.
Not to continue the Boomer bashing, but I had a conversation with my Boomer parent over the weekend about Woodstock (she was there) and I swear we are still fighting against the same group of people the DFH’ers were fighting 40 years ago.
As least they had better drugs and music to make things better. Now, you can’t even find qualudes and don’t get me started on the state of music.
Nazgul35
Greatest Generation to everyone else:
“Frakoff, we got ours!”
matoko_chan
Well I want everyone to quit reading him….he is a douche.
And I’m sick of TNC and Sully carrying him up the blogverse arena ladder so he can get welfare epics.
Napoleon
Not only will the media not call them out on it but you will have the WaPo editorial page (and David Broder) cheering them on.
The Grand Panjandrum
Douthat had a similar question in his NY Times piece this morning. I’d quibble a bit with some of his characterizations of the various constituents in this brouhaha but the gist of his argument is sound. And maybe instead of cutting of Medicare we could just cut off their access to the interntrons. They seem to be the group that has the most trouble understanding that everything you read on the internet is not true.
But this isn’t all that surprising. About 30 years ago another generation of seniors was persuaded by Reagan that the evil gummint was always the problem, so after a lifetime of reaping all the benefits of union jobs and other progress made by Democrats they decided it was in their best interest to vote for a guy whose entire agenda was to dismantle the social safety net. Long story short: nuttin’ new brudda. Nuttin, at all. I’ve seen this movie before it just has a new cast. These guys don’t want their ox gored, plain and simple.
GReynoldsCT00
@John Cole:
I know he’s an ass but somebody linked to him today and he talks about how the R’s are essentially for Medicare before they find a way to be against it later on
MattF
So, um, about this euthanasia thing…
wrb
I’ve been liking the idea of killing medicare first, the offering universal health care.
No socialized medicine for me, the none for thee.
Maybe the seniors can join up into co-ops.
Or get jobs.
Take down the VA while we’re at it.
wrb
I’ve been liking the idea of killing medicare first, the offering universal health care.
No socialized medicine for me, the none for thee.
Maybe the seniors can join up into co-ops.
Or get jobs.
Take down the VA while we’re at it.
El Cid
Medicare is not an actual government program. It created itself out of the ether and it is the responsibility of all seniors top protect this mysterious, self-created organism from those liberals in the government who would dare disturb it with their radical experimentation.
malraux
In other words, the republicans will just walk through the paint and track it through the house, while the democrats will take the blame for not supervising the republicans better.
gypsy howell
By all means, let’s get government out of Medicare. And while we’re at it, let’s get the government out of VA care and health care insurance for the military.
Think of the wars we could fund!
gypsy howell
wrb beat me to it.
Napoleon
@Max:
Max said: “I hate that I have to pay for something that I will never be able to benefit from.”
Huh? You do know if all the bad things that people who really know SS predict will come about happen all that means is that your benefit, which will be higher then current beneficiaries benefits, will not be as high as they would have been otherwise. In other words (and I am making these numbers up, but what they demenstrate is accurate) a current beneficiary may get $100 a month and once you retire, with inflation and all, you may be entitled to $120 a month, but because of a funding shortfall you only get $115.
JenJen
According to CNN, there are at least two people with assault rifles in the crowd outside the President’s Phoenix event. Apparently legal in Arizona.
Joe Klein came on and said in his 40 years of covering American politics, he’s never seen anything like this.
There are a lot of people out there right now that are making me a little ashamed. And the media keeps rewarding the nuttiest of loon extremists with coverage and personal interviews.
ominira
@Leelee for Obama:
What’s that saying again about wishes, horses and beggars?
I’m trying to imagine what would possibly cause the MSM to forgo the entertainment ratings model and finally call anyone on their bullshit.
matoko_chan
Grand P
things have changed tho….the demographic timer is running out on the non-hispanic cauc majority.
The teabagger demographic cant talk to the youth or or college-grads or women or hispanics(demographics they desperately need), a ‘cuz they have been culturally disenfranchised.
The only voice they have left is
screamtalk radio.gypsy howell
@Napoleon:
Makes you wonder what Obama’s talking about when he says he wants to “start with Socia1 Security” per mcc @#8
Brian J
I decided a few weeks ago the Republicans just aren’t serious about either end of the reform package. They aren’t going to vote for the tax increases that are necessary to pay for whatever reform package, liberal or conservative, is voted on. And from what I saw from a post at Marginal Revolution, they are accepting the idea there’s no stopping seniors. Unless they disagree with the premises of that famous New Yorker article about the two Texas towns, in which case they disagree with reality, there’s plenty of money to be saved from Medicare without sacrificing quality. The only people who would suffer from fee-for-service reform are doctors, who would make a little less money. So here we have some reforms that would pass tomorrow if the Republicans joined with the Democrats. That they are loudly demanding for reform in this way suggests they are more concerned with winning elections than responsible governing.
Brian J
Aren’t demanding, I meant to say.
Mr Furious
@JenJen: You’ve got to be fucking kidding me.
Napoleon
@Max:
Oh and a PS, I will guarantee you that there is no one who reads this blog that will get screwed worse then me by the SS funding method. I hit the work force very close in time to when they redid the FICA tax to stick it to the working stiff so that suddenly the taxes were way higher then needed to fund SS, I have hit the max. salary level the vast majority of the years since then but really have never exceeded it by much. I will be screwed by the system, and that is even in the absence of a privatization like that proposed by Bush (which would have literally had the result of robbing me of years of over payments) or some radical decrease in benefits.
But you know its OK if overall we have a system that generally is achieving a better society.
gypsy howell
@Brian J:
That they are loudly demanding for reform in this way suggests they are more concerned with winning elections than responsible governing.
You’re just figuring this out?
Unless there’s a buck to be squeezed from us for their corporate cronies, “governance” has nothing to do with it.
Violet
@wrb:
Been saying this for some time. Why should seniors be the only ones who get to enjoy the benefits of government run healthcare? Since they hate it so much, let’s eliminate it. That thing costs tons of money anyway. We’d even make a dent in the deficit!
I bet seniors would have a different viewpoint on the value of government-run healthcare once they dipped their toes into the esteemed open market of health insurance. The phrase “death panel” would take on an entirely different – and much more accurate – meaning.
Leelee for Obama
@Nazgul35:Not really the Greatest Generation that’s out there. Those people are mostly wheelchairs ans walkers, if they can leave the house.
This group is the mid generation-Born before or during WW2. They have had a pretty good ride and see no reason why that should change one iota. Some of them, like my Sister are pre-60s hippies, others are as selfish as the day is long. My Boomer Gen is fairly evenly split-which is why the politics is teh-fucked up.
People who sacrificed little, gained much and called their little brothers and sister Commie bastards are not gonna be too concerned about someone else’s grandkids.
JenJen
@Mr Furious: Video and everything. Rick Sanchez has spent most of the hour on the guys with assault rifles.
The Other Steve
I think I’m going to go buy a gun. Not something I want to do with a child in the house, but I can keep it over at my buddies house. He has a big gun safe.
T. O'Hara
But I’d bet they’d vote for tort reform. Why isn’t that on the table, anyway?
Napoleon
@gypsy howell:
I don’t know if we should be pissed off or maybe it is a smart thing (depending on how he does it) as in it would have been a smart thing for Clinton to hit welfare reform right of the bat when he became president (along with healthcare). All he needs to do is raise the salary cap on FICA a little and the funding problems are gone.
Having said that I no longer trust him so would come down on the pissed off side of the equation.
gypsy howell
@Violet:
Exactly. Let’s see how many of them even get through the “pre-existing condition” screening. By the time the insurance companies were done with them, they’d be paying exorbitant premiums, have $20,000 deductibles and they wouldn’t be covered by any ailment they might have come upon in their 65+ years of life, which is probably pretty much everything. Let’s seem them afford THAT on their Social Security payments. Death panels might seem like a good way out at that point.
“Medicare for me, but not for thee”
ChrisS
@gypsy howell:
Keep in mind that soldiers are special people and a 4-year stint entitles you a lifetime of free medical care.
They are citizens+1.
Speaking as an AF vet that had a (benign) tumor removed, gratis, which I discovered after I quit my full-time job to take advantage of my GI Bill education benefits. I didn’t try to sign up for health care through the school, so I don’t know how that would have gone down, but whatevs, I’ve got a nifty scar on my neck now.
Leelee for Obama
ominira and malraux:
Perhaps watching Dick Armey twist in the wind while explaining why these people he’s frothing up in defense of their Medicare should sue to get out of Medicare could be a blood sport of sorts.
Eric Cantor explaining the Rethugs pie-chart on the budget or their health care plan would be pure comedy gold-almost funnier that Colbert, because it would be real-time.
Virginia Foxx could be forced to defend the euthanisia BS on the House Floor, to bongos.
THAT’S ENTERTAINMENT!
gypsy howell
@Leelee for Obama:
You nailed it.
Sentient Puddle
@JenJen:
That’s the influence of your NRA at work, folks. Defending our right to assassinate the president! Or something…
Calouste
@JenJen:
I think in most of Europe, anyone who shows up with an assault rifle in a crowd stands a better than 50% chance of ending up with a police sniper generated hole in their forehead. The crowd would also disperse pretty rapidly.
wrb
.But I’d bet they’d vote for tort reform. Why isn’t that on the table, anyway<
I don’t get that either.
A rational reform would include both public option and tort reform.
And I think tort reform would pull enough votes to pass a public option.
It seems the dems are as much the property of the trail lawyers as the pubs are of the health and insurance industries.
Thus, stalemate.
freelancer
@GReynoldsCT00:
Sadly’s shorter is quite facepalm inducing.
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/24056.html
jl
Might be good for us youngins to kil off Medicare out of spite. But poor ol’ John Cole has admitted he was 40.
Should have stopped at 39, like Jack Benny. Then he could do whatever he wants and not worry.
We will all need Medicare sooner or later, unless we have special secret plans for staying young. If you think the Republican/big business scam called Health Savings Accounts will carry you through old age, you need some mental health couseling right now.
Me, I am thinking about making plans to leave over next 20 years. Seriously. If this garbage keeps up, the US will not be a safe place to live. Never thought I would say that, and I always disliked people who said it before.
But I am thinking that very powerful forces in this country, which have no concern about the populations’ wellbeing, seem to be in total control. Amazing, to me that it has come to this: when I think about what I can do to prepare for a safe and sane old age, the first thing that comes to mind is to make plans to leave the country if necessary. Not as a protest, but as plain common sense.
If this nonsense keeps up, I will feel safer in the hands of those socialist nationalized healthcare death panels.
That is snark, of course. Do not need socialism or nationalized system for good health care. As Krguman said today in his column, the US could try the Swiss Approach.
That might be a good approach, unless the greedheads drum up a campaign against the fondue eating neutrality-monkey Swiss menace. Then we will know we are doomed, if our plutocratic overlords will not even allow a move to half-assed bogus Swiss system that still leaves them room for plenty of good (but not rip-off level) profits.
Max
@Napoleon:
At which age will that kick in? I’m 38 now, so I imagine that by the time I am able to retire, the age will be what, 77? That’s another 40 years of paying the maximum.
I’m sorry, but I’m not confident that it will be there for me when I need it.
gnomedad
@mcc:
Maybe Mr. 11-Dimensional Chess Player is looking at all the “Soshulism!” footage, thinking about SS reform down the road, and smiling.
jl
sorry, I was typing too quick in the last comment. I was not saying that the Swiss system is half-assed bogus. It is pretty good. I was trying to type that a US Swiss style system watered down by corporate lobbyists would be half-assed and bogus.
Evinfuilt
@Nazgul35:
I’m pretty sure all the people from “The Greatest Generation” are dead, now we’ve got the silent generation finally speaking their minds.
gypsy howell
@ChrisS:
I spent a weekend a couple years ago at a military-only boat club near Annapolis, with some friends who were USNA/Naval reserve. The people I met there (both Army & Navy) were the most self-satisfied, self-righteous group I ever ran across, with a sense of entitlement that made me wretch. Nothing but bloodsuckers, I thought.
ChrisS
@Sentient Puddle:
Yeah, but at least one of the guys was black, so it’s not like all republicans that hate Obama are old white guys.
/NRO
Fern
@JenJen:
“According to CNN, there are at least two people with assault rifles in the crowd outside the President’s Phoenix event. Apparently legal in Arizona.”
I will never, never understand Americans. I cannot image any reason in the world why a private individual should be allowed to own an assault rifle, let alone schlep one around in a crowd, and especially near an event that includes the president. Incomprehensible.
matoko_chan
rawr, AllahP gets it…..he titles Douthat’s post as “The GOP is winning the battle but losing the war.”
Tactics can carry a battle, but strategy wins the war.
Leelee for Obama
@gnomedad: To quote my very favorite line from Wallace Shawn : “You’d like to think that, wouldn’t you?”
I have a fantasy where Barack spends at least ten minutes a day thinking: Think this health care stuff pisses you off, wait till I fix Social Security, beyoches! Mean, I know, but a girl can dream.
Capn America
Every senior should be sent an official letter from the gov’t asking if they’re against government-run healthcare. If they say yes, cut their Medicare. Let’s not punish the millions of seniors who really need Medicare and aren’t crazy.
strawmanmunny
This whole deal is just depressing,aggravating,infuriating and nauseating.
It’s time to face the music. A vocal minority of this country is ignorant and enough of the rest of the country can be influenced by them, that it seems beyond repair.
You got people running around saying “Communist”,”Socialist”, “Nazi’s” with no understanding whatsoever of what those things really are. And on top of their ignorance, they have an unhealthy arrogance to go with it.
It’s one thing to be ignorant but don’t be so damn arrogant about it, please.
And I’m getting tired of the left wing too. They sound like a bunch of babies crying about everything little thing that gets “leaked”. OH NOES….we won’t get this, OH NOES…we won’t get that…..Jesus. It’s like being in the middle of a room with a baby in each corner…….of course, one of the babies is strapped to show just how “free” he is cause nothing says freedom like packing.
To me, the left wing wants payback for the last eight years. They want Obama to be Bush-left. Just cram crap down their throats. But Obama was never going to do that. It’s not his style. He is what he is. He’ll get something passed. It won’t be everything you want, but it will be a start. I’d much rather have that then go back to square one and wait another 15 years for the next chance.
One thing I’ll give Republicans. No matter how crazy, no matter how ignorant, no matter how out there they get, they back each other up. And they get plenty of each.
Calouste
@jl:
The US now spends 16% of it’s GDP on health care and insurance. That is for example almost double that of Britain and that ratio is not going to get better unless there is serious reform. It’s going to be hard for the US to compete on the world markets with that kind of overhead. And of course the percentage of the working force that in the US works as either billing specialists for the health care providers or claims
deniershandlers for the insurance companies in the US will actually be contributing to the real economy in some other capacity in other countries.kay
@JenJen:
I think it’s pretty nervy for people who insist on carrying an assault rifle to make all the people at an event like that nervous about getting shot by their stubborn insistence on carrying an assault rifle.
They’re not alone out on the militia compound, or whatever. They CHOSE to enter a crowd.
Perhaps they could show a little common sense and have some concern for vast majority of the people that came unarmed, and who they make very, very nervous.
Who raises these people? Why don’t they have any common sense or basic manners?
This is why we need laws. Conservatives won’t show any restraint. They can’t self-police.
Calouste
Can’t even use the word “special-ist” on this blog without going into moderation.
ruemara
I’m actually about to start my own death panel website and I think it’s time we all got our taxes back for the sochelizeem that is medicare. If I got none, why should I keep giving stuff to you?
SenyorDave
I talked with my mother last week, who will be 80 in a month, and she lives in a 55+ community. Most of her friends act like medicare is a mandate from God, and that since they have retired (and are part of the greatest generation), they can sit back and pass on this legacy of debt to others.
My mother never got that attitude, she actually votes for school budgets and stuff like that.
ChrisS
@gypsy howell:
I’m a vet, I had a great time in the AF and they paid me $36,000 for college when I got out. I lived in England for two years and the Pacific NW for another two.
But.
Under no circumstances do I understand the lame-ass hero worship that goes on in rightwing circles. I guess I just don’t believe in exceptionalism. In my four years I met all sorts of ne’er-do-wells and criminals including basic assholes and scum, up to rapists. But apparently, military personnel are slightly less sacrosanct than Jesus, angels, Trig, and tax-cuttin’ politicians.
Anyway, VA healthcare is a cherished gift from America to its defenders and the GOP would never even consider cutting any funding that goes to fightin’ wars – and that includes any money that goes to the troops. Ever.
the most self-satisfied, self-righteous
That group would be military spouses. I met very few that didn’t consider themselves to be the chosen ones.
Steve V
Isn’t AARP fairly solidly behind the basics of Obama’s proposals? I would think they can muster at least as many folks at town halls as Fox News can. I keep thinking there can be another wave of publicity or other activity coming before the senators return, I have no idea what shape it’s going to take (will be be OFA-dominated?) but I think it has to be more favorable for the reform side.
jl
@Capn America: Excellent idea. But a little check box asking the oldsters to affirm that they want to stay in the program, or want to opt out.
Odd thing is that the oldsters have been getting creamed in the US in terms of life-expectancy compared to socialist systems and their eldercide death panels. Life expectancy for 65 year old women was at a standstill in the US for almost twenty years. Life-expectancy for 65 year old men is doing likewise, but more slowly.
If trends continute, life expectancies for 65 year olds in the US will soon be bad outliers, even compared to places like Portugal.
Mudge
Dear Max, the GenXer..let me say one more time..I have been overpaying into Social Security for almost 30 years so that you do not have to go bankrupt paying my retirement. That money, real money that never found its way into my pocket, was placed in Social Security Trust Fund. That fund is solvent until 2038 or so. I’ll be dead.
Now, say all you want about the Trust Fund, that is has been spent, etc., but do not whine to me that I am responsible for your financial burden. I’m paid up on this one. Go invest your tax cut savings so you can pay back the Trust Fund.
Oh, and the old folks…they are the ones who have their life savings taken from them all the time by con artists. Why wouldn’t they fall for a political con?
kay
@JenJen:
Seriously. You’re at home on your compound, and you’re considering whether to bring your assault rifle to an event where the President is speaking, and where thousands of people will gather.
Your only concern is the strict legality of that act? Not a care in the world for the panic you’ll cause for all the people gathered, the Secret Service, local law enforcement, or anyone but yourself and your rights?
It’s the most inconsiderate, selfish, bone-headed act, but it’s LEGAL, by God! This is the thought process? Are they raised by ex-cons, or what?
Elie
kay
We have mass histeria within our culture right now…its been building for a while and will continue. Widely allowing people to arm themselves to the teeth cannot lead to anything but tragedy but our “leaders’ do not have the courage to take on the crazy to do it and the Republicans, having fanned this flame to white hot, will never be able to do anything to get the genie back into the bottle.
We are having a mass teen age hissy fit…we are (like teenagers), unable to completely take care of ourselves and make appropriate cause and effect decisions. People ran up their personal debt and behaved as though there would never be a pay up time. Now there is and we are damned mad that its going to cost a lot to fix what we allowed (including us and democrats) to get broken.
Health care is a side issue but just ties together a lot of our insecurity and immaturity. Again, we do not want to pay for anything but we want it all. We want, like teenagers, absolute freedom to drink and then get into a car. In this case, to bring loaded weapons into a public meeting with the President of the United States…only a teenager knows why that is so necessary.
I am trying so hard to still love this country and its people but it is truly difficult, including my bretheren on the left and progressive who have their own crazy. Here is their formula (from underpants gnomes)
1. Pull lever for Obama
2. ???? (bitch and moan, bitch and moan)
3. Perfect health care reform
HRA
“I’m pretty sure all the people from “The Greatest Generation” are dead, now we’ve got the silent generation finally speaking their minds.”
Not exactly. There are plenty of them still around.
I always wonder why the more affluent are given Medicare. One quite wealthy relative of mine was ecstatic at having been approved.
Elie
Mudge@ 66 —
Yep — what you said!
gypsy howell
@ChrisS:
Thanks for not taking personal offense at my comment, which I was afraid you might after I posted it. I’m happy your experience was a positive one. My point, which I didn’t articulate at all, was that very exceptionalism you mentioned. These people honestly seemed to think they were better and more deserving than the rest of us citizens. All the perks they get (and I remember thinking, as they were yakking, “wow. These folks have it made compared to the rest of us taxpaying schlubs, with guaranteed paychecks, healthcare, living expenses, military-only boat club memberships, pensions, education etc.”) Yet they’d be the first to deny any of that to any of their fellow citizens.
Indylib
@gypsy howell: Just out of curiosity do you happen to know whether these smug soldiers and sailors you met were officers or enlisted?
kay
@Elie:
For people that natter on constantly about personal responsibility they show incredibly poor judgment and plain bad manners, every single day.
Ya know what? I shouldn’t have to write a law that tells you it’s stupid and mean-spirited and inconsiderate to bring your assault rifle to a public gathering. Your mother should have told you that, under the heading of “you’re not the most important person in any crowd”, when you were ten years old.
It’s also stupid and mean-spirited and rude to make it impossible for people to hear, but then, it’s not yet ILLEGAL so I guess conservatives are okay with it.
Indylib
@ChrisS:
Fuck you, from a military spouse.
Max
@Mudge: Hostile much? My point is that the Boomers far out number the generations behind them, and that the social constructs in place for them will not be there for the future generations if reform doesn’t happen.
Not sure what tax cuts you are referring to. I’m single, with no kids, a renter and I cap out each year on SS contributions. Yeah, I pay more than my share too.
There are NO tax cuts for me.
My concern is what happens after 2038. I understand that its not your problem. Unfortunately, “its not my problem” is the running theme for many of the seniors that oppose health reform.
I’m glad that SS and Medicare are there for my parents. And I’m glad to pay more than my share. My frustration is with those of a certain age who don’t want the rest of the country to have the same benefits that they have.
gypsy howell
@Indylib:
Officers, I believe.
This was one of my very few experiences with a bunch of career military, so whether it was representative, I can’t say. But they were all full up on the godliness of their mission, and the entitlement of their perks.
gypsy howell
@Max:
I think what Mudge is referring to is the tax cuts you enjoyed by virtue of the fact that your tax rates were lowered at precisely the same time, and in direct consequence to boomers entering the work force and doubling up on SS. We paid our way – paid it forward, so to speak. The fact that republicans for 3 decade have used that surplus in the trust fund to argue for lower tax rates, well, that’s what you get for trusting republicans with your money I guess.
That’s what gets lost in the debate about boomers and social security.
JenJen
Talking Points Memo has more on the people carrying guns outside Obama’s VFW speech in Phoenix today.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/2009/08/man-carrying-an-assault-rifle-and-pistol-outside-obama-event.php?ref=fpa
This report says one man with an assault rifle, two men with handguns. CNN’s Ed Henry, as far as I can tell, is sticking by his claims that two men carried assault rifles.
It still blows my mind that this is happening at all. Is this the kind of thing that will dog Obama’s entire presidency? It’s utterly unprecedented, and horrible, just horrible, for the country, if you ask me.
kay
@JenJen:
I never, ever want to hear another conservative whine about Code Pink, or how former President Bush was treated.
Jay in Oregon
@ChrisS:
Sounds like they read Starship Troopers one time too many, and forgot that it was science fiction.
Sentient Puddle
Y’know, here’s what I don’t get…
Let’s suppose for a second that I’m lunatic enough to feel the need to bring my handgun to a presidential event. And let’s say that I decide to store it in a holster on my ankle while I’m toting around my sign, like that one lunatic from New Hampshire.
It sort of occurs to me that some other lunatic in the crowd behind me can quite easily yoink that gun and can start shooting before I’m really able to do much of anything to get that gun back (if I even can). Maybe carrying that gun out here wasn’t so smart to begin with, hrm?
And remember, this is occurring to me even though I’m certifiable. If this thought doesn’t cross the minds of these idiots bringing their guns to the rallies…argh, fill in the blank yourself. Words fail me.
asiangrrlMN
Yes yes! No Medicare for old people. Ebil s o c i al ism! It must be defeated from within!
As for the batshit crazy people bringing assault rifles to an event attended by the president, words fucking fail me as to what kind of dipshit idiots would even think this a peachy-keen idea. Really. You wanna make yourself a big, fat target for the Secret Service, the cops, and everyone else there to protect the president? You wanna be a dipshit martyr for the “Omigod! Islofascistmooslimblackity-black president iz in yur White House, bitchez, roolin’ yur country” cause? Really? And what the fuck good do you think that is going to do, you stupid pieces of shit?
Ok. I guess I did have something to say.
@kay: Damn right, kay. The worst thing to happen to W. is that he got a shoe thrown at him!
Anne Laurie
@Max:
Dude, I was born at the end of 1955 — the front end of the Back Boomers. Grew up with overcrowded schools, spent resources, and worn-down adults saying “Too bad you couldn’t have been here five years ago, this was all pretty nice back then.” Started working full-time during Jerry Ford’s Great Recession-Plus. Watched with disbelief and horror as the generation behind me “invented” Reaganism and cheered the Laffer Curve. Believe me, I have never assumed that Social Security would “be there” for me. The only people I know in my age cohort who’ve ever assumed they’d be able to retire at 65 and live off Social Security were Republicans, libertarians, and/or idiots.
The olds currently yelping ‘Keep the government out of “my” Medicare’ are from the pre-Boomer or early-Boomer demos. Katy Abram, poster behayma for the Teabaggers, says she’s 35 — Gen Y, right?
Look on the bright side, maybe the H1N1 will mercifully kill all the productive Youngs like you, and then us tired wrinklies will have no choice but to starve to death and it will serve us right.
Indylib
@gypsy howell: There is a difference in attitude, I promise you. Officers do tend to have an ego complex that you don’t see much of in enlisted personnel. The officers also make up only about 1/10
Offering healthcare benefits to enlisted military and their dependents is in part to make up for the fact that they get paid crappy salaries, have to move constantly and, at least in the Navy, usually work a lot more than 40 hours a week.
REN
I’m sure these people haven’t escaped the attention of the Secret Service. I hope one of them makes a threat within their earshot and finds himself in jail for a long time. Make no mistake about it, threatening POTUS is against FEDERAL law and Arizona be damned for being so stupid.
And John, lumping all seniors into this category is the same as lumping all Hispanics into the illegals category or all teenagers into the idiot category. I’m considered senior, my parents are very senior and we have fought for progressive causes and values all our lives. And that includes healthcare as a basic right,for all.
JenJen
Via TMP, late update from local TV news in Phoenix: No fewer than TWELVE people beared arms outside of the President’s speech there today:
http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1200460
Tax Analyst
Mudge
Mudge said:
“Dear Max, the GenXer..let me say one more time..I have been overpaying into Social Security for almost 30 years so that you do not have to go bankrupt paying my retirement. That money, real money that never found its way into my pocket, was placed in Social Security Trust Fund. That fund is solvent until 2038 or so. I’ll be dead.
Now, say all you want about the Trust Fund, that is has been spent, etc., but do not whine to me that I am responsible for your financial burden. I’m paid up on this one. Go invest your tax cut savings so you can pay back the Trust Fund.
Oh, and the old folks…they are the ones who have their life savings taken from them all the time by con artists. Why wouldn’t they fall for a political con?”
Thanks, Mudge. Max sounds a lot like all the GenXer’s who wanted to kill Social Security a few years back because, “I can make much more money for my retirement in the stock market.”, and also did a great deal of carping about paying for someone else’s retirement. I had a younger relative – a big Reagan fan, who talked that shit. He was bragging about how much his investments were earning. Today? Well, he’s broke and has no job and no remaining investments . Luckily for him if he survives long enough to reach old age he WILL have some sort of Social Security to at least give him a baseline existence. Hey, that’s HOW Social Security works. You pay into a pool to cover people who are elderly now and eventually you get old enough to enter that pool. Will you get more or less than if you had invested the money yourself? Who the hell knows? Who the hell cares? The idea is that as a society you don’t want to leave the support of a large group of people to depend upon their investing acumen (or gambling luck, as the case may be). It’s a good system and it’s not going away.
Prediction: Social Security will still be around when Max retires and there will not be any government “Death Panels” at that time.
Max
@Anne Laurie: I’m a dudette, Max, my namesake, is my dog.
I guess we all have our generational cross to bear.
Sadly, Katy is a Gen X’er – like me. Born roughly 1961 to 1979.
My mother was able to retire at 62, with a significant amount in personal savings, but she has a gap in health care because that doesn’t kick in until she’s 65. She’s pays a fortune on the open market for coverage. My stepmother, who is 60, lives very cheap and only works part time. She has no benefits.
I wish there was a cheaper option for them. Not free, just cheaper.
Tax Analyst
@ #68 Elie – Aren’t you being a little hard on teen-agers? Most of the ones I’ve met lately have a lot more common sense than the folks you are talking about.
I work with a lot of people in their early 20’s (pretty close to being teen-agers) and while they kid around a lot, they are for the most part a pretty mature and level-headed bunch.
Just don’t tell any of them that I said that, they’d never let me forget it.
Martian Buddy
I honestly thought that this was just a running gag on this site until I read a letter to the editor this weekend urging us to “stop the government from turning Medicare into socialized Medicare.
Max
@Tax Analyst: Boy, some of you are overly sensitive.
My point was that it is our responsibility as citizens to help others, yet, the seniors that John mentions in his post, and those that I encountered at the townhall meeting, DO NOT want the rest of our citizens to have the coverage that they benefit from.
I am willing to pay more if it would benefit the middle class that don’t qualify for assistance because they make too much, but can’t afford it because they make too little.
I don’t want to take SS private, never ever have I said that.
But after this thread, I’m with John… let’s kill Medicare.
General Winfield Stuck
It seems quite obvious, I would think, sir – we must seize the government and make our own negotiations.
Gummere: [incredulous] Seize the government?
Capt. Jerome, USMC: At BAYONET point!
Gummere: [snidely; to Dreighton] Well, I certainly would like to see that old son-of-a-bitch at bayonet point, huh?
[chuckles]
Gummere: But it’s ridiculous; it’s outrageous, it’s lunatic!
Adm. Chadwick: Yes, isn’t it though? I think Teddy should love it!
Gummere: But, what about the French, the Germans – the British? Why we’re in the shadow of Gibraltar!
Adm. Chadwick: [slams his hand on table and stands up] DAMN THE LEGATIONS!
Gummere: [uneasily] You realize, of course, that if we fail in even the slightest way, we’ll all be killed?
Adm. Chadwick: Yes, and the whole world will probably go to war.
Capt. Jerome, USMC: Gentlemen, if we fail and are killed, I certainly hope the world DOES go to war!
Anne Laurie
@Max:
If that part of my comment insulted you, I apologize. I consider ‘dude’ pansexual, but I know not everybody else does.
Max
@Anne Laurie: No offense at all. I use “dude” all the time. I just wanted to make sure I got credit for feminine compassion towards others.
:)
Elie
Max:
So help me understand why after this thread killing Medicare is the option you believe in…really?
Honestly, I am starting to believe that everyone in this country has gone batshit crazy.
We do not seem to understand how big things get done (its all in one step and it has to be perfect the first time and done really fast too).
We seem to be willing to kill a very important program for many many seniors (even if meant in jest) as a ploy to show em who’s boss and that we now wear grown up underpants, I guess..
Do you know how little it takes to put you into major health care debt? If we killed Medicare for retirees (and don’t forget it also covers the disabled for certain categories), one hospitalization of 10 – 20K would completely destroy what little savings they had and put them into penury. Is that what we would want even for those crazy folks foaming at the mouth at those town halls? Really? Some progressives you are .. “Let em go to hell” right?
Honestly, I might have to stop coming here for a while…the crazy seems to be spreading
Ash Can
I saw a photo somewhere today of one of the yahoos with a gun in Phoenix — a black guy with an assault rifle over his shoulder. Now, as Alan Keyes and the teabagger in the wheelchair have shown, wingnuttery is not limited to white folks. Nevertheless, I have to wonder what this guy’s actual agenda was. Was he making a pro-gun, anti-president statement? Or was he making a statement to those who were making a pro-gun, anti-president statement with their guns? What I mean is, were any of these people packing heat doing it as a way of saying to the wingnuts, “don’t forget, assholes, these laws that you love so much allow us to do this too”?
Now, two wrongs don’t make a right, and I disapprove of anyone displaying deadly weapons at a gathering like this, regardless of the reason. I’m just wondering if everyone’s reasons were the same.
Indylib
@Indylib: Jeebus, I hate not being able to edit. The completed sentence was supposed to say that Officers only make up about 1/6 of the military as a whole.
General Winfield Stuck
The year 2038 is a long time from now. So long, I expect to read news from our Mars Colony by then. That is if I weren’t dead already, of which the odds are good.
rs
I hope the guys with the assault rifles are enjoying the speech knowing they’re in the crosshairs of a sniper’s scope. Not to mention the fact that by the time they get in their car to leave, their personal lives will have been dissected and they’ll be on the radar of every level of law enforcement.
Health insurance reform is simple- Medicare for everyone. Health care reform is a much more complicated problem that has to include addressing the criminally high cost of malpractice insurance (tort reform is just one solution), the cost and manner in which we educate too few physicians (we have something to learn from the community, as opposed to hospital,based schooling Cuba uses) resulting in the US having the highest paid (2X anywhere else) doctors in the world, the cost of prescription drugs (largely due to our patent system as well as the tons of money spent on advertising and marketing), and RATIONING expensive and futile care to people who are now able (on dimes from the public pocket) to unilaterally decide they’re going to try and live forever.
Max
@Elie: No, I don’t want to kill Medicare. On the contrary, I want to expand it.
I have stated that I want to extend coverage to those that don’t have it. Including my mother and step-mother, who are both seniors.
My “kill medicare” snark was in response to the blowback from the Boomers on this thread who misconstrued what I was saying.
Yes, I understand how Medicare works and how it also helps the disabled. My father was disabled and on it until he passed away last year.
And with that, I’m bowing out of this because it really is taking a very strange turn.
Elie
Tax Analyst:
Yeah, I hear you and agree that my example of teenagers was probably overdone.
That said, there IS a phase (hopefully a phase, not permanent state) where cause and effect are not that well developed. Whatever that time period is, we are in it as a country..
Or are we just too overexposed and normalized to extremity in our media and general sociology? All our tv shows — esp those called “reality” shows are becoming crazier and crazier. I do think in some ways people might be modeling the extreme narcissism and irresponsibility that we see over and over.
Michael Vick, a guy who tortures animals and did for many years, we presume is ok to make over 6 figure income in football because some mentor — another football hero — says that he has paid his debt to society and is ok. By what measure do we have assurance of that? Funny — the cure, a jail term, is supposed to fix what is wrong in Michael Vick’s soul? And reading the bible with Tony Dungee is supposed to make this all better.
No wonder we see nothing but crazy everywhere!
Jacob Davies
The other thing to remember is that previous generations built the world we live in, even if many of them may be nominally economically unproductive now. We owe them a lot, collectively.
When you’re complaining about the Medicare bill from your paycheck, it’s best to remember that without the work that previous generations put in to transform this country & the world, you’d probably be working in the fields just to survive until you dropped dead at 45. We’re all extremely lucky by historical standards to live in a country where we have interesting, high-paying, highly-productive work available in the first place.
Workers of any age also benefit from Social Security and Medicaid’s promise of help should they be disabled or impoverished, and their families benefit from the insurance against bereavement. Just because you haven’t needed it yet doesn’t mean you won’t; just because you never needed it doesn’t mean you didn’t benefit from the security of knowing it was there.
That doesn’t justify bleeding the working population dry in pointless end-of-life interventions, that’s not fair either, though I think we’re quite some way from that situation. But I do think more realism about aging and death would go a long way – an acceptance of the fact that there comes a point where someone is just not going to “recover” in any meaningful sense. There are two good bits on this subject in the NYT today including (weirdly) one by Douthat. But I believe that most of that has to be done voluntarily, by a gradual change in attitude; it’s not something you can drop on people.
But I also am pretty pissed off by people who are currently benefiting from one part of the social safety net who wish to deny the rest of us the same kind of security out of bizarre, paranoid fears.
(*Although not all – many very elderly people still work, especially in knowledge-heavy jobs like university professors, doctors, etc. In other cases seniors effectively act as banks to their own family members, lending from their reserves, & making decisions about what things make sense to borrow for. And probably making better decisions than the actual banks did about creditworthiness. Then of course there is babysitting and childcare… “Hey, you can take the kids for the summer, right?”)
Elie
Sorry Max…I completely misundeerstood your comment and apologize for mischaracterizing your intent…, much less knowing anything about your family.
Been feeling a little bats myself lately. Hard to feel as though some sort of sanity is prevailing and that we aren’t just bouncing off walls.
I also want an expansion of Medicare and was being too vigorous in my defense
Mike
Geez, do you kids really think getting a SS check every month and having
Medicare coverage is enough to guarantee a comfortable old age?
You’d best have a paid off house and car plus several hundred K in savings
in addition to the “entitlements”. Why do you think some of these seniors
are so desperate to protect what they’ve got, even if they are
misguided? If they haven’t brought considerable assets into retirement,
they are living a meager existence at best.
Put that together with “stupid” and you’ve got yourself a town hall.
SamInMpls
I hate to say it but this post is exactly how I’ve come to feel about reform in the last 3 weeks.
gypsy howell
@Indylib: Offering healthcare benefits to enlisted military and their dependents is in part to make up for the fact that they get paid crappy salaries, have to move constantly and, at least in the Navy, usually work a lot more than 40 hours a week.
And this is different from the rest of the population how exactly?
What I take exception to is the exceptionalism that says the military is sacrificing more than the average worker.
Wile E. Quixote
@gypsy howell
Are you really that ignorant? Really, you have just displayed a positively Palinesque degree of ignorance and stupidity and after reading your comment it wouldn’t surprise me to hear you start babbling about death panels, or demanding to see Obama’s long form birth certificate.
Here’s the difference between being in the military and a civilian job, unlike jobs in the civilian world the military owns your ass and you can’t quit. You sign up for a hitch as an enlisted man in the military and they own you for as long as they like, as the guys who got stop-lossed during the Iraq War, or who were recalled from the IRR found out. You don’t get to say “Well, this job sucks, I quit.” because if you do quit you go to jail, and it’s not a fun jail either, it’s someplace like Fort Leavenworth. For officers you usually owe the military anywhere from four to eight years for your training, and again, you can’t quit. You might have done your eight years and have paid the military back but if they decide that they still need you you don’t get to resign your commission and leave.
There’s also the fact that there are a whole bunch of jobs in the military that are really dangerous. Even military training is dangerous because you do it with things like real tanks, real aircraft, real artillery and lots and lots and lots of live ammunition. This isn’t like being a member of the SEIU and having a lousy job where you clean hotel rooms or working at WalMart. In addition to the workload and salaries there’s also a very real risk to life and limb that most civilian workers don’t face, and those that do are paid a lot more for it than any member of the military.
If you really think that this is members of the military don’t sacrifice any more than the average American worker then you’re as fucking stupid as the idiots who want to get government out of Medicare. I mean really, you just wrote one of the stupidest things I have ever read on Balloon Juice. Are you trolling or something? If there were a Balloon Juice Hall of Stupid Fame you’d be in it along with BOB and myiq2xu for writing that.
Brachiator
@Elie:
Actually, it’s the law that says that Vick has paid his debt to society, not his mentor. And given Vick’s bankruptcy and the general disarray of his financial affairs, it is unlikely that even earning a 6 figure income is going to dig him out of the hole he is in. And I’m not sure what might fix his soul, so I will settle for him not harming another animal again.
Apart from this, I don’t know if Vick is a good example of current craziness.
Yep. That’s it. Medicare represents the fulfillment of a debt that was owed to seniors. The thing is to continue to go forward, not to harp on seniors for their perceived ingratitude.
Nancy Irving
I think (and hope and pray) that the oldsters screaming at town halls were no more representative of elderly Americans than younger tea-partiers are of younger Americans.
Houston
I don’t believe the oldsters screaming against socialized medicene are representative of the plus 65 population, anymore than I believe Katy Abrams, the current Joe-the-Plumber, represents her generation.
Oh, John, you’re so sexy when you’re radical. If we erased Medicare and Medicaid of the books, including the Republican mandated prescription drug boondoggle passed several years ago, we could at least start with a clean slate and maybe come up with a cost-effective, workable system. That would be right after we sent all Republicans into permanent exile.
Houston
I don’t believe the oldsters screaming against socialized medicine are representative of the plus 65 population, anymore than I believe Katy Abrams, the current Joe-the-Plumber, represents her generation.
Oh, John, you’re so sexy when you’re radical. If we erased Medicare and Medicaid of the books, including the Republican mandated prescription drug boondoggle passed several years ago, we could at least start with a clean slate and maybe come up with a cost-effective, workable system. That would be right after we sent all Republicans into permanent exile.