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Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Hell hath no fury like a farmer bankrupted.

If you still can’t see these things even now, maybe politics isn’t your forte and you should stop writing about it.

It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.

Republicans: “Abortion is murder but you can take a bus to get one.” Easy peasy.

They think we are photo bombing their nice little lives.

You don’t get to peddle hatred on saturday and offer condolences on sunday.

I’m more christian than these people and i’m an atheist.

Accused of treason; bitches about the ratings. I am in awe.

A democracy can’t function when people can’t distinguish facts from lies.

Trump’s cabinet: like a magic 8 ball that only gives wrong answers.

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

With all due respect and assumptions of good faith, please fuck off into the sun.

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

The fight for our country is always worth it. ~Kamala Harris

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

There are some who say that there are too many strawmen arguments on this blog.

… pundit janitors mopping up after the gop

These are not very smart people, and things got out of hand.

Beware of advice from anyone for whom Democrats are “they” and not “we.”

If a good thing happens for a bad reason, it’s still a good thing.

Whoever he was, that guy was nuts.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

Lick the third rail, it tastes like chocolate!

I’d like to think you all would remain faithful to me if i ever tried to have some of you killed.

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You are here: Home / Politics / Republican Stupidity / Just Making Shit Up

Just Making Shit Up

by John Cole|  August 20, 20097:01 pm| 107 Comments

This post is in: Republican Stupidity, Clown Shoes

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calvinball

Matt Yglesias catches Grassley and Enzi stating that any health care bill needs 75-80 votes in the Senate. Why? Just because! The new talking points must be out, because Bill Kristol’s personal puke funnel chimes in:

Maybe President Obama should stop wee-weeing and start trying to get some Republican support for his bill — as both Johnson and FDR successfully did. Getting a bill like this is not, in fact, always messy. Rather, there is clearly something particular about Obama’s approach that has created this mess.

At any rate, since 75-80 votes is what is needed, I guess we should move to repeal the Prescription Drug Act, which only got 54 votes in the Senate. Likewise, the 2001 tax cut only got 62 votes, putting it below the new requirement. The 2003 tax cuts only got 50 votes, which, under the “new” rules, means we have to roll those back. Finally, only Scalia and Roberts passed the 75 vote threshold for confirmation, so sorry about your luck Clarence and Sam.

These guys literally can say anything, and no one calls them on it. Ever.

(Image idea stolen shamelessly from Yglesias.)

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Reader Interactions

107Comments

  1. 1.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 20, 2009 at 7:02 pm

    personal puke funnel

    As Gawd is my witness, I will steal this without remorse.

  2. 2.

    jl

    August 20, 2009 at 7:04 pm

    Since Grassley has proved himself patently dishonest, and he feels free to lie repeatedly about important policy issues, and acts in ways that are impossible to interpret as anything other than egrgious bad faith,

    I DO NOT feel comfortable with any bill he would vote for.

    So, I guess, subtract one from that total.

  3. 3.

    Davis X. Machina

    August 20, 2009 at 7:06 pm

    You only argue about covering the spread if you lost the game.

    The GOP have given up — they’re going through the motions.

  4. 4.

    JK

    August 20, 2009 at 7:07 pm

    A few ago, The Daily Show had a sketch on this topic. If memory serves correct, I believe Democrats need 90 seats in order to achieve a double secret super duper majority in the Senate.

  5. 5.

    El Cid

    August 20, 2009 at 7:07 pm

    It would serve our national interest best if Democrats had to get 150 votes in the Senate in order to be allowed in the Senate chamber and that Republican sponsored legislation could pass with 1 Senator voting and that this would also be veto proof. Anything less would fail to Bring the Divided Nation Together and Give US Our Country Back.

  6. 6.

    Englischlehrer on vacation

    August 20, 2009 at 7:07 pm

    I dont think I have followed a debate as closely as this health insurance reform debate and it has become an emotional rollercoaster where you arent even sure that the ride is going to end in a somewhat satisfactory manner.

    How wife-beaten are the democrats that they cannot tell the opposition that they have tried to work with them but when the opposition”s m.o. is “destroy black panter”s presidency”, it is hard to negotiate.

    I think Democrats would have negotiated, like giving into some tort reform so a person cannot sue for 100 million dollars for concessions. It now looks like no matter what, the Republicans are negotiating nothing, just demanding that this be taken out or that cannot be in the bill and it doesnt make sense. It is making me crazy and my girlfriend says it makes me grumpy and she”s probably right.

  7. 7.

    IndieTarheel

    August 20, 2009 at 7:07 pm

    This was worth the read for the Calvinball reference alone.

  8. 8.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 20, 2009 at 7:08 pm

    Under the administration of President George W. Bush Congress used reconciliation to enact three major tax cuts.

    Shut your yapper Grassely, and bend over.

  9. 9.

    gbear

    August 20, 2009 at 7:11 pm

    @General Winfield Stuck: Well they needed to do that because the Democrats weren’t being bi-partisan. Things just never change…

  10. 10.

    calipygian

    August 20, 2009 at 7:14 pm

    The Dems allegedly have 60 in the Senate, which means in any NORMAL democracy that they have the majority.

    So we are paying attention to loser motherfuckers like Grassley and Enzi……….why are we paying attention to them again?

  11. 11.

    REN

    August 20, 2009 at 7:15 pm

    Since opinion on their old talking points is swinging against them, it’s time to change them . It’s what they always do.

  12. 12.

    David

    August 20, 2009 at 7:15 pm

    Also made up:

    Today’s Headline~
    David Frum and Peggy Noonan Ask:
    Has the Republican Party Become Some Kind of a Weird Death Cult?

  13. 13.

    J.

    August 20, 2009 at 7:18 pm

    God I miss “Calvin & Hobbes.”

  14. 14.

    Fulcanelli

    August 20, 2009 at 7:19 pm

    I’m waaayyyy past the point of feeling justified in pillow casing a few R congress critters just on principal for being such serial liars and obstinate douchebags. I think if we just grab a few and work ’em over, the rest might smarten up.

    On second thought, we may have to do the lot of ’em. Positive problem.

  15. 15.

    Jackie

    August 20, 2009 at 7:19 pm

    Are there any Iowans here? I understand Grassley is worried about being primaried. Why does he have no concern about the general? As I recall our president did pretty well in Iowa. Will no democrat run against him?

  16. 16.

    dmsilev

    August 20, 2009 at 7:20 pm

    Hell, Medicare only had 70 yea votes (link, including partisan breakdown), so that’s out. Social Security just barely squeaks by with 77 yeas.

    -dms

  17. 17.

    Napoleon

    August 20, 2009 at 7:20 pm

    @J.:

    The guy who drew/wrote it lives a couple miles or so from me. He draws landscapes now for fun (so it is said).

  18. 18.

    Maus

    August 20, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    “Why? Just because!”

    OH GOOD, time for Reid to have a new excuse!

  19. 19.

    Maus

    August 20, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    Er, Pelosi.

  20. 20.

    Maus

    August 20, 2009 at 7:22 pm

    Oh man, my brain is destroyed today. Remind me to get more sleep. Correcting corrections.

  21. 21.

    cleek

    August 20, 2009 at 7:22 pm

    personal puke funnel

    he’s like a little baby bird, eager to gobble down whatever mommy-bird can hork up.

  22. 22.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    August 20, 2009 at 7:24 pm

    If the Dems did things like the way W did, they could pass whatever piece of crap Baucus and Grassley cooked up between the two of them to make the Blue Dogs in the Senate happy and then Obama would just pencil in a full public option in his signing statement. Unitary Executive, beeotches!

  23. 23.

    Comrade Jake

    August 20, 2009 at 7:25 pm

    You know what struck me in Yglesias’ post? This:

    some Democrats, who are quietly urging Obama and congressional leaders to lower their expectations for what can be accomplished this year in the interest of building momentum for future reform.

    What the hell are some Democrats smoking?

  24. 24.

    freelancer

    August 20, 2009 at 7:26 pm

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ:

    Signing Statements, like Executive Orders can be rescinded by future presidents at their leisure, without any check from another branch. It’s their pro, but it’s also their con.

  25. 25.

    demkat620

    August 20, 2009 at 7:28 pm

    Did Goldfarb think that stuff was funny? God he is a moran.

  26. 26.

    Max

    August 20, 2009 at 7:28 pm

    I heard Chuckie T. pose an interesting theory on Grassley… His point was that Grassley wants out of the Gang of 6, so he’s doing/saying everything he can so that Obama will “fire” him, so then he can say, “well, I tried, but they threw me out of the room”. However, Chuckie T thinks that Obama is going to continue to wrap him in Gang of 6 love, so that Grassley will be forced to “quit”, and Obama can say “well, I tried, but he walked away from the table”.

    I sort of feel like Chuckie’s on to something. Even a broken clock is right two times a day.

  27. 27.

    Demo Woman

    August 20, 2009 at 7:29 pm

    @Comrade Jake: They won’t be back for another term, so why wait.

  28. 28.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 20, 2009 at 7:29 pm

    Sen. Charles E. Grassley, a key Republican negotiator in the quest for bipartisan health-care reform, said Wednesday that the outpouring of anger at town hall meetings this month has fundamentally altered the nature of the debate and convinced him that lawmakers should consider drastically scaling back the scope of the effort.

    WE should bow to screaming mobs carrying guns and Obama Hitler signs, and just say thanky you GOP for still being our friend and not killing us. It’s all your fault libtards. For getting uppity and winning elections.

  29. 29.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 20, 2009 at 7:30 pm

    forgot link from WAPO

  30. 30.

    Leelee for Obama

    August 20, 2009 at 7:30 pm

    Yeah, I read this on GOS and laughed right out loud. If Reid and Co. don’t tell these asshats to get stuffed, I swear I’ll move to Nevada so I can run against him myself, and I hate the f’ing desert. 80 votes my ass. It’s time to tell them to look up bipartisan in their Funk & Wagnalls. (This last for all old fans of Laugh In.)

  31. 31.

    DS

    August 20, 2009 at 7:32 pm

    The only way Obama could get twenty Republican senators to support something of his is if he carpet-bombed Iran and then danced the Charleston on top of Ahmadinejad’s grave.

  32. 32.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 20, 2009 at 7:34 pm

    @DS:

    They might vote yea at his Senate Impeachment Trial. Nah, they couldn’t be that mean.

  33. 33.

    Fulcanelli

    August 20, 2009 at 7:34 pm

    @Leelee for Obama: Sock it to ’em, LeeLee. Verrrrry eeeennteresting. But shtupid, these Bleu Dogs. Also. And then some.

  34. 34.

    Mnemosyne

    August 20, 2009 at 7:34 pm

    @Maus:

    Er, Pelosi.

    No, you were right the first time. Pelosi has hung tough this entire time and said that no bill will pass the House without a public option. It’s the squishy Senate we’re all worried about, and that’s Reid’s responsibility.

  35. 35.

    Polish the Guillotines

    August 20, 2009 at 7:35 pm

    I seem to recall during the campaign, weeks of wingnut comedy routines about “Obama thinks there’s 57 states!11!1!!”

    Today’s Republicans are:

    1) pathologically dishonest
    2) hopelessly corrupt
    3) lethally incompetent
    4) defiantly ignorant
    5) recklessly violent
    6) &tc

  36. 36.

    Anoniminous

    August 20, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    That deranged loon at the Obama speech the other day was packing his AR-15 to let the world know he would not be ground under by the tyranny of the majority.

    This seems to be the current Conservative Rant & Rave©.

  37. 37.

    Ash Can

    August 20, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    These guys will say anything, anything, to get traction in the press. And I do think being able to say “we tried, but the Repubs refuse to cooperate” earns the Dems brownie points among the great unwashed. However, a little more repetition and volume wouldn’t hurt the Dems any, to be sure. The Republicans are running around flailing and shouting and saying outrageous things, and the spectacle is attracting lots of media attention. The Dems need to crank it up to offset that.

    as both Johnson and FDR successfully did

    William “Concern Troll” Kristol is very, very concerned, but not concerned enough to point out that back in the days of FDR and LBJ, there were still a few Republicans around who were willing to negotiate with their Dem counterparts in good faith, and the party had not yet been completely hijacked by assholes and lunatics, such as it is today, by people such as, well, him.

  38. 38.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    August 20, 2009 at 7:37 pm

    @J.: You and me both, it was the best part of my day. Now replaced by “get fuzzy”

  39. 39.

    Meyer

    August 20, 2009 at 7:40 pm

    The Dems need to crank it up to offset that.

    I think they could make good use of the phrase “lying sack of shit.”

    It’s not in the least hyperbolic.

  40. 40.

    Leelee for Obama

    August 20, 2009 at 7:40 pm

    @Anoniminous: But will he refuse health services when he accidently blows his____off with his big gun? NOOOOOO! And it’ll be a member of a minority who takes care of him I’ll betcha.

  41. 41.

    Shawn in ShowMe

    August 20, 2009 at 7:40 pm

    So the Grassley narrative has shifted from “they don’t have enough votes” to “if they don’t beat us by 40, it’s not a legit victory” in less than 48 hours.

    How many times does Obama have to pull away from these fools down the stretch before the concern trolls stop betting against him?

  42. 42.

    Ash Can

    August 20, 2009 at 7:42 pm

    OK, I understand I goofed; that wasn’t Kristol. (How can you tell I hate clicking on links to drek?) Let’s just pretend we have an edit button, and my post above is adjusted accordingly. My basic point still stands, though.

  43. 43.

    geg6

    August 20, 2009 at 7:43 pm

    I have decided that this making shit up has become so ingrained from so many years of Republican dominance of the political landscape (and even during the Clenis years, it was still dominant) that regular people have taken to doing it, too. Today, move in day for freshmen, I had a mother in my office because the student’s bill was not paid, no one had contacted us to work on how to pay the bill (nor had they taken the effort to come to any of our summer orientations), and they said they had no assets to pay. When I asked, in a nice way, why no one had tried to work with us or try to plan for this moment, the woman flat out insisted that she had called and I’d called her back but she wasn’t available so it was my fault. Then she insisted that she had a letter from me in which I said that everything would be covered but didn’t have the letter with her. And then she said that she had a letter from the US Dept. of Ed that said they had recalculated her daughter’s FAFSA information and that it resulted in her daughter getting $16,000 in federal grants. But, again, she didn’t have this “letter” with her. All of this was said with a straight face and great vehemence which turned to absolute indignation when I said that I keep records of all my phone conversations and have no records of any with her, that I have copies of all letters I send and have none of letters to her or her daughter, and that there is no federal grant program that awards sums over $5000 or so. And she insisted I was lying. I felt very much like Barney Frank must have felt like with the wingnut at his town hall. I couldn’t believe how much this woman believed her own lies. And she was only the worst of the bunch today. So this sort of behavior is like a virus. People see the GOPers doing this stuff with no consequence (in fact, with great success and further rewarded with teevee face time 24/7) and figure why not?

  44. 44.

    Davis X. Machina

    August 20, 2009 at 7:43 pm

    The Grassley thing is very significant. The GOP struck their colors today I think he knows he can’t sustain a filibuster without active Democratic help, and that got less likely this week.

    Things on the ‘left of the left’ are heating up nicely, so Obama can go to the Senate Democratic ‘moderates’ and say “Guys, help a brother Senator out — those craaaazy liberals are going to eat me alive, especially in the House.”

    (Johnson used to go to the Dixiecrat rump in the Senate all the time and pull this one, with a fair amount of success.)

    I expect a tidal wave of intra-Democratic crap thrown at the left of the Party from the right yeah, sure, and from all sides, but I don’t plan to take 90% of it seriously.

    It ain’t over till it’s over, but it’s got distinctly over-ish features to it.

  45. 45.

    shelley matheis

    August 20, 2009 at 7:43 pm

    I absolutely love how there’s all this breathless reporting, now that Tom Ridge has a book to plug, that the Bush administration upped the terror level for it’s own political advantage.
    Is there anyone, alive at that time, who has any doubt? Jesus, the timing alone would make the biggest Bushie give pause.

    Oh, and fuck you, Ridge.

    (Damn, before the Bush years., my political discourse was a little more lady-like)

  46. 46.

    Leelee for Obama

    August 20, 2009 at 7:46 pm

    @Fulcanelli: Makes me wish Ruth Buzzy could use that purse of hers-like pillow casing but more hysterical.

  47. 47.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 20, 2009 at 7:46 pm

    as both Johnson and FDR successfully did

    Johnson had 67 dem votes in the senate after the 64 election. And FDR something around the same. Of course, back then, republicans were not batshit insane southern crackers, though a number of dems were. It depended on the issue how they broke down in voting and cannot be compared to present day parties. But yea, technically both got some GOP votes from socially liberal, yet fiscally conservative NE goopers. They did help out on civil rights issues, and sometimes even a little social safety net issues, yet less so, I think.

  48. 48.

    Shawn in ShowMe

    August 20, 2009 at 7:50 pm

    Things on the ‘left of the left’ are heating up nicely, so Obama can go to the Senate Democratic ‘moderates’ and say “Guys, help a brother Senator out—those craaaazy liberals are going to eat me alive, especially in the House.”

    Nah, Obama isn’t that shrewd. He’s just some a naive Clintonite who gets bossed around by his underlings. I mean, if you read it from the Poutrage blogset, it’s gotta be true.

  49. 49.

    Meyer

    August 20, 2009 at 7:51 pm

    Things on the ‘left of the left’ are heating up nicely, so Obama can go to the Senate Democratic ‘moderates’ and say “Guys, help a brother Senator out—those craaaazy liberals are going to eat me alive, especially in the House.”

    …and they are all looking at actblue raising a quarter of a million bucks in 48 hours – and actbue will do that for their soon-to-appear primary opponent, knowing they’ll piss off their base if they vote against HCR, latest poll from SUSA comes out showing strong continuing support for the public option, and the dems are suddenly forced to grow at least a single nut and maybe even two.

  50. 50.

    Davis X. Machina

    August 20, 2009 at 7:54 pm

    …and the dems are suddenly forced to grow at least a single nut and maybe even two.

    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom…

  51. 51.

    Leelee for Obama

    August 20, 2009 at 7:55 pm

    @Meyer: Smiling, rubbing hands together and humming-this is working out verrrrry nicely! Makes me wish I could send some ducats, but at least I can send encouraging e-mails. Wasn’t that SUSA poll the bomb?

  52. 52.

    lotus

    August 20, 2009 at 7:58 pm

    @shelley matheis:

    Shelley, did you see what befell Ambinder today? His snivels about Ridge pretty much invited commenters to lunch on his liver. (So they did. After Glenzilla and Marcy Wheeler already had.)

    Dee-licious.

  53. 53.

    freelancer

    August 20, 2009 at 8:05 pm

    @lotus:

    Jesus. the 3rd comment is about as effective a takedown as they get.

    http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/08/dont_cry_for_tom_ridge.php#comment-251743

  54. 54.

    Shawn in ShowMe

    August 20, 2009 at 8:07 pm

    dems are suddenly forced to grow at least a single nut and maybe even two.

    The only group whose rhetoric has changed substantially in the last 48 hours is the Republicans. They’re obviously spooked the polls. Obama and Pelosi have been sticking to the same narrative for weeks.

    Hoping for Reid to grow a pair, on the other hand, is like expecting Ann Coulter to apologize. It just ain’t happening. But as we saw with the stimulus bill, there are ways around him.

  55. 55.

    gwangung

    August 20, 2009 at 8:10 pm

    Things on the ‘left of the left’ are heating up nicely, so Obama can go to the Senate Democratic ‘moderates’ and say “Guys, help a brother Senator out—those craaaazy liberals are going to eat me alive, especially in the House.”

    I gotta repeat…did anyone sane and with an IQ above room temperature think ANYTHING would get done in this administration without pressure from the left?

    And really, seachange in administration will get a lot LESS done than a seachange in administration plus big honking VISIBLE chunk of the electorate along side it.

  56. 56.

    Koz

    August 20, 2009 at 8:11 pm

    All this is side-issue crap. The problem isn’t “them” (Chuck Grassley, cranky old dudes at town halls, whatever), it’s you. If anybody on the pro-“reform” side had anything resembling a message, we’d be hearing it now. But they don’t, so we aren’t.

  57. 57.

    Meyer

    August 20, 2009 at 8:18 pm

    The only group whose rhetoric has changed substantially in the last 48 hours is the Republicans. They’re obviously spooked the polls. Obama and Pelosi have been sticking to the same narrative for weeks.

    Pelosi is now saying she needs a public option. That’s quite a ratchet up.

    I think a lot changed here, not least of which is Waxman asking the insurance companies to supply financials. THAT is ominous – the implied threat there is, OK, if we don’t have a public option to keep you guys honest, we’re crawling through your books. Doubt they want that, pretty sure they’d take a public option over that.

    Speaking of financials, the health insurance companies surely had a chunk of change in the market and especially AIG. Has anyone figured out how much we’ve bailed them out?

    Because I mean, really, we should add that to the no-public-option side of the cost equation, shouldn’t we?

  58. 58.

    Anne Laurie

    August 20, 2009 at 8:28 pm

    @Davis X. Machina:

    You only argue about covering the spread if you lost the game.
    …
    The GOP have given up—they’re going through the motions.

    From your keyboard to the FSM’s noodly appendages.

  59. 59.

    tc125231

    August 20, 2009 at 8:32 pm

    @El Cid: No. What would serve the National Interest is establishment of a free National Barber for the Financial Elite and Republican leadership.

    The French did it several hundred years ago and the guff level from the scum is certainly more controlled.

  60. 60.

    Anne Laurie

    August 20, 2009 at 8:34 pm

    @geg6: Also known as ‘The Katy Abram Strategy’ (strategery?). Sincerity, and volume, should score higher than mere facts!

    Grassley and his ilk are making me wonder if we need a new tag for Squid-Cloud of Butthurt.

  61. 61.

    tc125231

    August 20, 2009 at 8:37 pm

    @Koz: Yean. Nothing like, “Our bestest insurance system produces demographically inferior results at a much higher per capita price,” will do for you.

    Why some of those words have more than one syllable! How could that be a good message?

    Go read McGerbil. You need a bed time story.

  62. 62.

    Koz

    August 20, 2009 at 8:40 pm

    tc125231, there is a difference between a problem and a solution. If there was an argument that “We are sure that plan X is better than the status quo, because….”, we ought to be hearing it. But we’re not, and that’s not “their” fault, it’s yours.

  63. 63.

    tc125231

    August 20, 2009 at 8:43 pm

    @lotus: Ambinder is worthless. Just another apologist for power.

  64. 64.

    tc125231

    August 20, 2009 at 8:46 pm

    @Koz: Yawn. The information is widely available. But fools like you apparently are unable to gather it.

    So prepare to be corn-holed fool. Just don’t whine about it later.

  65. 65.

    WereBear

    August 20, 2009 at 8:48 pm

    (Damn, before the Bush years., my political discourse was a little more lady-like)

    I have never, ever, sworn so much as I have the past few years. At the TV, during discussions, and to myself when I think about it.

    And I’m originally from the Midwest.

    But I learned to swear from Brooklyn.

  66. 66.

    Calouste

    August 20, 2009 at 8:54 pm

    @calipygian:

    The Dems allegedly have 60 in the Senate, which means in any NORMAL democracy that they have the majority.

    In normal democracies, votes go by a plurality, not even a majority. Only 89 Senators show up for a vote? 45 Yea’s will get it passed.

  67. 67.

    Koz

    August 20, 2009 at 8:54 pm

    “The information is widely available. But fools like you apparently are unable to gather it.”

    Uhhh, no. You can check out all the various liberal or pro-reform sites (including this one). All you hear about is Max Baucus, Glenn Beck, the Senate Parliamentarian, the liberal bloc in the House, whatever.

    The health care reform plans have real mechanical “Point A to Point B” political problems, but that’s the least of it. It’s a much bigger deal that they have no message.

  68. 68.

    Leelee for Obama

    August 20, 2009 at 9:03 pm

    @WereBear: Brooklyn in da house! Yeah, I have used many bad words in the last decade, even in front of my Mom! The bestest swearing comes from there. My early days left quite a vocabulary in my collective unconscious. and they only moved me to Long Island-so there were frequent return trips for refresher courses.

  69. 69.

    steve s

    August 20, 2009 at 9:06 pm

    @Ash Can:
    “August 20th, 2009 at 7:42 pm Reply to this comment
    Ash Can
    OK, I understand I goofed; that wasn’t Kristol.”

    Well, the important thing is you got to call someone a concern troll. Doesn’t matter if the person wasn’t actually trolling a message board, or was even the right person.

  70. 70.

    geg6

    August 20, 2009 at 9:17 pm

    Koz: Uuuuuh, are you an idiot? The various legislative proposals are discussed in great wonky depth at many progressive blogs, including Matt Y’s and Ezra’s to name the easiest two off the top of my head. Digby does health care in depth. And FDL has both Christy and Amanda, both of whom have made health policy a part of their areas of expertise due to the major health issues they’ve faced. But you’re typical. State something that is a bald lie as if it is fact and then blame the Democrats for being right. It’s mind numbingly stupid and you seem to think it makes you look smart.

  71. 71.

    gizmo

    August 20, 2009 at 9:42 pm

    The good people of Iowa deserve better than Charles Grassley.

  72. 72.

    Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist

    August 20, 2009 at 9:49 pm

    @Koz: Here you go. Read that, then get back to us.

  73. 73.

    Bokonon

    August 20, 2009 at 10:07 pm

    Hey … Bill Kristol? You know that “something particular” you wonder about in Obama’s approach? It is called being Barack Obama, and being President in 2009, and facing an opposition party that is dedicated to destroying both you and your party, and totally unwilling to engage in good faith.

    Not to mention enraged talk radio trolls like Limbaugh, a phony grass-roots movement drummed up with industry cash … Second Amendment nuts toting guns walking around and talking secession over “federal tyranny” … Sarah Palin trying to launch a populist third party on the back of her “death panel” claims … anti-abortion activists mobilizing over the possibility that a public plan might lead to abortion funding. All of which is Obama’s fault, of course.

    That’s the “something particular.” Gosh… wonder how you missed that, with your cute little rhetorical questions.

  74. 74.

    Makewi

    August 20, 2009 at 10:39 pm

    @calipygian:

    Because you don’t have 60 votes in the Senate and it’s better form to make this the fault of the GOP than it is to turn the rage inward.

    I will be surprised if this talk of using reconciliation is anything other than a bluff. In any case, the most that would pass under that provision is the spending for a program, and to even do this would be to risk the GOP shutting down Congress by forcing all bills to be read in their entirely every time they are discussed. For what? They’d still need to get the non financial aspects past the 60 vote line.

  75. 75.

    tripletee (formerly tBone)

    August 20, 2009 at 10:49 pm

    @Bokonon:

    There is clearly something particular about Obama’s approach that has created this mess.

    I think Goldfarb’s right. I just don’t know what it could be, though …. hmmm, that’s a real poser. *black black blackity black* I just can’t put my finger on it.

    @Comrade Jake:

    What the hell are some Democrats smoking?

    I believe the kids call it “insurance company pole.”

  76. 76.

    tripletee (formerly tBone)

    August 20, 2009 at 10:55 pm

    @Makewi:

    to even do this would be to risk the GOP shutting down Congress by forcing all bills to be read in their entirely every time they are discussed.

    Oooh, scary! Gosh, Dems had better just capitulate on health care reform then. Being obstructionist jackholes worked out so well for the Republicans in the mid-90s, after all.

    Seriously, dude, spoof well or don’t spoof at all. Reading your stuff is liking watching David Brent in the UK Office – I have to look away because I’m so embarrassed on your behalf.

  77. 77.

    Makewi

    August 20, 2009 at 11:44 pm

    @tripletee (formerly tBone):

    Then don’t read it. Or continue to whine about it. Either way, you will continue to be powerless to stop others from having opinions. Now run along and be embarrassed for someone who gives a crap about your existence.

  78. 78.

    Koz

    August 20, 2009 at 11:49 pm

    To geg6: Uhh, no. I’ve been reading Ezra pretty regularly. I read Matt less often, but was amused by this link:

    http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/08/the-limits-of-incrementalism.php

    In general (and those two in particular) liberals know that they want a health care reform “win” of some kind, but they haven’t been able to articulate the benefits of any particular plan that’s persuasive to anybody except themselves.

    The idea of switching advocacy from a single-payer to the “public option” to co-ops within the space of a week or so just emphasizes the Demos’ schizophrenia when they’re forced to deal with substance.

  79. 79.

    rikyrah

    August 20, 2009 at 11:51 pm

    I just don’t know what it could be, though …. hmmm, that’s a real poser. black black blackity black I just can’t put my finger on it.

    ok…this just made me LMAO….

  80. 80.

    Koz

    August 20, 2009 at 11:57 pm

    tripletee, again there are real problems with the political mechanics of health care reform, but those probs are much smaller than the fact that you’re losing the message war.

    Or to put it another way, for what was in play three weeks ago, if you forced the issue, I’m not sure you have 40 Senate votes, let alone 60.

  81. 81.

    tripletee

    August 21, 2009 at 12:01 am

    @Makewi:

    Now run along and be embarrassed for someone who gives a crap about your existence.

    Now that hurts. I was coming from a place of loving concern.

    @Koz:

    The idea of switching advocacy from a single-payer to the “public option” to co-ops within the space of a week or so

    Single-payer was never on the table and everyone knew that, which is why there’s been no serious push for it. Within the past week, advocacy has ramped up for the public option, with virtually no enthusiasm for co-ops. What imaginary Democrats are you watching, anyway?

  82. 82.

    tripletee

    August 21, 2009 at 12:08 am

    @Koz:

    Or to put it another way, for what was in play three weeks ago, if you forced the issue, I’m not sure you have 40 Senate votes, let alone 60.

    You sound very concerned. Very concerned indeed.

  83. 83.

    Koz

    August 21, 2009 at 12:09 am

    Tripletee, single payer is what most of the liberals who are pushing health care reform actually want, as the Ygesias link I mentioned concedes.

    Last weekend, the Administration (ie, the Democratic Administration) seemingly conceded the public option, but apparently some liberals in the House are trying to walk back this concession. The deal with coops is apparently from Kent Conrad who is trying to move the process along on its original path.

    In any case, it’s been pretty clear for a while (say, three months) that no one has tried to argue for the substance of any of this.

  84. 84.

    Koz

    August 21, 2009 at 12:15 am

    “You sound very concerned. Very concerned indeed.”

    No no no. I’m playing for the other team.

    What I do care about, is when we come back to power (which the way things are going might not be that long), that the liberals are actually going to believe this bullshit they’ve been deluding themselves with, and try some tit-for-tat scorched earth crap.

    What I am telling you now, in the hope of avoiding mindless obstruction and bitterness, is what the other side actually is motivated by.

  85. 85.

    wasabi gasp

    August 21, 2009 at 12:15 am

    Work the difference: say, if 60% of the electorate want it, 40 votes can pass it.

  86. 86.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 21, 2009 at 12:34 am

    @Koz:

    What I do care about, is when we come back to power (which the way things are going might not be that long)

    Dream on dude. while Obama’s polls have come down to the 50’s they are still quite good. And some of those that are unhappy are dems and maybe some indies that think Obama is not being forceful enough in pushing his hc reforms.

    And likewise,, GOP numbers have gone down to even further to somewhere just north of The Clap/ It will take quite a while for people to forget the wingnut clusterfuck of the past 7 years, though I do expect dems to lose some seats in the House and maybe 1 or 2 in the Senate.

    And this is perfectly normal for a midterm for the out of power party. Hell, Reagan and the GOP got their clock cleaned in 1982 and Reagans personal poll numbers went down even further than Obama’s.

    Personal appeal goes a long way for a presnit and can carry them even when folks aren’t all that happy with what they are doing at any given point in time.

  87. 87.

    tripletee (formerly tBone)

    August 21, 2009 at 12:43 am

    @Koz:

    What I am telling you now, in the hope of avoiding mindless obstruction and bitterness, is what the other side actually is motivated by.

    Um, really? Could you point out where, exactly, you did that? Because for someone chiding Democrats for lack of message discipline, you seem to traffic a great deal in meaningless generalities and vague ideas that never coalesce into a coherent point.

  88. 88.

    jsg

    August 21, 2009 at 12:46 am

    “personal puke funnel” muy bueno, gracias!

  89. 89.

    Koz

    August 21, 2009 at 1:00 am

    “Could you point out where, exactly, you did that?”

    Just what you quoted. We’re going to be back in power sooner than you think. When that happens, obviously you’ll probably oppose large parts of what the majority GOP proposes, but it’s best for the country as a whole if you have some motive other than tit-for-tat bitterness.

    In the case of health care right now, your team wants to pretend that everybody “really” agrees that somewhere in one of these Demo plans there’s a good solution, but only reason Pres Obama hasn’t signed one yet is bad faith. But that’s just plain wrong. The GOP opposes the increased spending and the collectivization of medicine. I’m personally appalled that your team can’t get a straight story about what your plan actually does, and from there try and argue what you hope it will accomplish.

  90. 90.

    BeccaM

    August 21, 2009 at 1:02 am

    Let us also not forget that when a few Democrats had the audacity to point out that a few of Bush’s judicial appointments were actually filibuster-worthy, the GOP Senators who numbered only 50 at the time actually threatened to overturn the filibuster entirely with a new rules change — with just 50 votes plus VP Cheney’s tie-breaker.

    They have no shame or dignity left.

  91. 91.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 21, 2009 at 1:11 am

    @BeccaM:

    They have no shame or dignity left.

    Arrogance and a ton of hubris. They really think they are the only true Americans and us treasonous libtards are just thwarting their natural leadership abilities.

    Like Koz, who has already forgotten the mess they made for Obama to clean up, and is spouting BS about how Obama has failed already, and the voters will snap back into their right mind and hand the reins back to the GOP. Last poll I saw was at 20 percent who thought wingnuts had the right solutions to our problems. The ones they caused BTW/

  92. 92.

    FlipYrWhig

    August 21, 2009 at 1:11 am

    mindless obstruction and bitterness

    Doesn’t it say that on the Republican Party logo?

  93. 93.

    Koz

    August 21, 2009 at 1:16 am

    “Last poll I saw was at 20 percent who thought wingnuts had the right solutions to our problems.”

    Objects in the mirror are closer than they appear. Rasmussen has the GOP leading the generic Congressional ballot by five points right now.

  94. 94.

    wasabi gasp

    August 21, 2009 at 1:16 am

    a ton of hubris

    If only I could stick that shit in a bong.

  95. 95.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 21, 2009 at 1:19 am

    Rasmussen has the GOP leading the generic Congressional ballot by five points right now.

    Rasmussen is full of shit. In between elections they are the equivilent to astroturf polling for wingnut fools to cling to for hope. When election time nears, they get serious again and do some pretty good polling, but not right now.

  96. 96.

    tripletee (formerly tBone)

    August 21, 2009 at 1:20 am

    @Koz:

    I’m personally appalled that your team can’t get a straight story about what your plan actually does, and from there try and argue what you hope it will accomplish

    Right about now I’m hoping it will cover voluntary euthanasia so I can get out of this Mobius strip of a conversation.

    In my absence, please feel free to carry on tut-tutting Democrats for our inexcusable failure to force you (in Clockwork Orange-style, if necessary) to listen, read, and comprehend our message on healthcare.

  97. 97.

    Koz

    August 21, 2009 at 1:27 am

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/generic_congressional_vote-901.html

    Well it’s not like Rasmussen is the only one, just the most recent.

  98. 98.

    Koz

    August 21, 2009 at 1:29 am

    “In my absence, please feel free to carry on tut-tutting Democrats for our inexcusable failure to force you (in Clockwork Orange-style, if necessary) to listen, read, and comprehend our message on healthcare.”

    Oh horseshit. You couldn’t coherently explain the public option in less than 200 words if your Medicare depended on it. But Henry Waxman is for it, and that’s good enough for you.

  99. 99.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 21, 2009 at 1:36 am

    One other at RCP. NPR poll with GOP up by one. Whoopity do.

    And here are some others

  100. 100.

    Yutsano

    August 21, 2009 at 2:18 am

    @General Winfield Stuck:
    My personal opinion: when Nate Silver makes a call on the Rep/Dem over/under (and BTW Nate has said over and over that the general Dem/Rep question is crap) then I’ll start maybe panicking that they’ll let the lunatics back in. Otherwise I’m gonna commence chill and let August slowly wind down.

  101. 101.

    Chris Baldwin

    August 21, 2009 at 6:51 am

    But Bill, when FDR and Johnson were in office the Republicans were sane…

  102. 102.

    zoe kentucky

    August 21, 2009 at 8:51 am

    Rachel Maddow had a segment about this new GOP meme last night– had a nice metaphor about how if this were a basketball game the GOP is trying to raise the hoop in the middle of the game.

  103. 103.

    zoe kentucky

    August 21, 2009 at 8:54 am

    Rachel also pointed out how the GOP has tried to change the fillibuster/supermajority rules– by going against the constitution, technically.

  104. 104.

    Koz

    August 21, 2009 at 11:01 am

    “…when Nate Silver makes a call on the Rep/Dem over/under (and BTW Nate has said over and over that the general Dem/Rep question is crap)….”

    http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/03/generic-ballot-blues.html

    That’s not exactly so. That post is from March, and in it Nate speculates that the GOP might get a net gain of 15 seats, extrapolating from the Carter Administration and a poll that showed the Demos +6 on the generic ballot.

    That was then. Now, the D’s are cratering, the GOP is leading in the generic ballot and gaining. But don’t pay any attention to this. I’m sure once you figure out how to get Mary Landrieu and Olympia Snowe to beat a filibuster, it’ll all turn around.

  105. 105.

    Corner Stone

    August 21, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    @geg6: Not making excuses for anyone but I wonder if this person is just in a tough spot and scared to death for her and her family?
    I got out of it that maybe they don’t have any way to pay the tuition, and hoping the old “Ostrich Technique” will take care of everything?

  106. 106.

    LongHairedWeirdo

    August 21, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    So, do you think they’re carrying water for the Republicans *intentionally*, or do you think that they’re not aware that anything less than total capitulation to every Republican demand will gain them *any* Republican votes?

    I mean, as soon as the public plan went out the window, the next big thing was how co-ops were toxic, no Republican would ever vote for them.

  107. 107.

    Tom M

    August 22, 2009 at 8:51 am

    When it comes to Congress, recent history shows that Dems need a significant advantage in national voting to gin seats. See this: from The Daily Howler

    KRUGMAN (10/13/06): My back-of-the-envelope calculations suggest that because of this ”geographic gerrymander,” even a substantial turnaround in total Congressional votes…would leave the House narrowly in Republican hands. It looks as if the Democrats need as much as a seven-point lead in the overall vote to take control.

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