We don’t have it:
Several news organizations reported Friday night that a Central Intelligence Agency report due to be made public next week details extreme tactics employed by agency interrogators, including what was described as a “mock execution.” Those news organizations’ reports could not be independently confirmed.
The content of the document, a 2004 report by the agency’s inspector general, was first described by Newsweek, which cited anonymous sources. The Associated Press and The Washington Post, also citing anonymous sources, reported some of the same details, including the claim that a threat of execution was used in dealing with one detainee, Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri.
A federal judge had ordered that the report be made public Monday in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union, The A.P. reported.
It’s going to be awesome spending the next week listening to cretins on right-wing blogs tell us that this is ok, because Al Qaeda actually executes people. Liberal media, also. We didn’t need to know this.
Just Some Fuckhead
When did the liberal media start executing people?
me
Walk on by…
Napoleon
@me:
Rats, you beat me too it.
r€nato
Let’s look forward, not backwards.
This is not the time to start pointing fingers and arguing over who did what to whom…
r€nato
Mock execution? It’s just a prank. Like a fraternity hazing. Are you liberals so worried about the rights of terrorists that you don’t even want us to play pranks on them?
Maude
Were the mock executions the original Death Panels?
dan robinson
Another example of the old saying “Absolute power tortures absolutely.”
asiangrrlMN
I know I am going to regret asking it, but mock executions? Is that anything like waterboarding simulating a drowning experience (it doesn’t. The person is actually drowning)? If so, then I’m not sure I want to know the answer.
I am with me and Peggy Noonan on this one. Sometimes, it’s better to just walk on by.
Ok. I just read the link and discovered what the mock execution reference was about. Words fail me.
No, wait. They don’t. What a bunch of sick, psychopathic, twisted fuckwads we have in the C.I.A. Makes me feel ever so much safer.
cmorenc
The right-wing noise machine will be filled with horns tooting how much more essential information that avoided further 9/11 style catastrophe was gained as a result than can ever be revealed, lest we give dangerously useful information to the terrorists in revealing it. And how various studies and inside sources now claiming that little to no useful info was gained this way, but rather it was all gained through conventional interrogation, all have political axes to grind which undermines their credibility (e.g. the FBI interrogators were just trying to regain and protect their turf).
It doesn’t matter what is objectively true or provable, the right-wing noise machine lives in worldview that is hermetically sealed to outside fact – they don’t need no stinkin’ facts, they create their own.
cmorenc
To the right-wing, it’s folks like John Bolton who have “moral authority”; the rest of us are Frenchies.
Tim F.
America does not torture!*
(*) “Torture” excludes everything we did (subject to revisions as reporting uncovers more things that we did).
(*) The reasons why we enhanced interrogated are different from the reasons why other countries torture.
(*) America is good and torture by good people is not torture because torture is always bad.
**These are all arguments either presented or treated as reasonable by major news outlets.
Davis X. Machina
I remember the outrage when this practice was used on the US embassy hostages in Iran.
Redhand
This squarely meets the definition of mental torture in the UN Convention Against Torture (CAT) that is part of US law. It’s right there in black and white: not even John Effing Yoo could ignore it (well, I know that’s wishful thinking) but the fact is that this if blatantly illegal.
dan robinson
But if we patriotic Americans do it, it isn’t torture.
TimO
“We didn’t need to know this.”
I’m sure I’ll be bashed but I tend to agree. It becomes another distraction. While it should never have been done because there was no need for it, if you’re not going to prosecute, then why air it out?
If you’re not going to stand Rummy, Shrub, Cheney, Yoo, and the rest of them in front of a war crimes court (like they should) and show the rest of the world that the US is honorable, then make sure the policy is ended, make a public statement condemning it, pay reparations and shove this stuff in the closet. Of course have it ready to pull out next time Neocon assholes decide to fuck with us again. Or when John Yoo tries to become dean of some law school.
Everybody knows it was done. Everybody knows nasty things go on all the time that we never hear about. Some things probably have saved lives and didn’t need to be publicized.
Remember when Kerry said he hoped to reduce the threat of terrorism to the point where it would be prosecuted in courts rather than launching military invasions? It sure as fuck is not done in the way the Bushies did it and its come to this.
After writing this, I debated trashing it but I’m throwing it out for discussion. These are my initial thoughts and something that’s been nagging me every time these things become public. It seems to be a choice of learning and moving on or wallowing in the horror of the Bush Years.
donovong
“We didn’t need to know this.”
No. Neither did we need to know about water-boarding. Or the fact that there were no WMD’s in Iraq. Nor did we need to know about Watergate, or My Lai, or Iran contra.
“La La La La La…I can’t here you!!”
Ignorance is bliss, right?
donovong
Hear, not here.
My kingdom for an edit button.
Svensker
Land of the Spied On, Home of the Vicious. Has a nice ring to it, dunnit?
We’re a fucking third world country, only with really big guns.
r€nato
@dan robinson:
I think Jon Stewart’s phrase was, ‘freedom tickling’.
bey
A drill. They threatened him with a goddamned power drill. What kind of a sick fuck thinks that’s ok?
It’s all torture (and shame on the NYT for not saying so), don’t get me wrong – waterboarding, threatening with a gun, dogs, stress positions – but when you whip out the power tools, you’ve gone beyond any semblance of human behavior.
You’ve entered a special monster-ridden place. Masks off.
Leelee for Obama
I said this yesterday, but,again-these people make me want to drown myself. How will our people ever be safe from the worst depredations if captured? They will be completely at the mercy of any force that takes them. And we’ll have no leverage AT ALL, to embarrass or cajole them. What an indication of what Bush et al thought of supporting our troops. Who gets the e-mails that demand prosecutions?
General Winfield Stuck
You think that’s bad. Just wait till we get Obama Death Panels. Fucking terrorists will thank us then.
asiangrrlMN
@TimO: I actually agree with you that if nothing is going to be done about it, we don’t need to spend so much time on it.
On the one hand, getting all this shit out is good so we can see to what extent the moral depravity ran in the W. posse, but on the other hand, with the constant spin spin spin done by the right and the media, all the issues will get distorted. If there was any Republican of standing with balls or ovaries who said, “This, quite simply, was wrong”, and if the traditional media gave out the clarion call as well, then these revelations would matter.
As it stands, it’s Kabuki theatre that leaves me feeling more depressed and drained and defeated than before.
To sum up: revelation in and of itself doesn’t help if there isn’t any follow through.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
When you go pointing your finger at us, remember that your three other fingers on that hand are pointing right back at you. Thus it is all your fault.
/wingnut
Male wingnuts are passing out all across America from the blood rushing from one head to the other after reading this. The only way to save them is to repeatedly kick them in the junk.
Then punch them in the neck and tell them that John Cole sez hi.
TimO
It sucks to be a realist.
Fuck it! HANG THEM ALL!
joe from Lowell
Just so we’re clear, this is the report that Obama won’t release, thus proving that he’s a sellout who’s JUST LIKE BUSH and not change we can believe in, right?
The release (or non-release) of which people like Glenn Greenwald have spent several months telling us is THE most telling piece of evidence about his commitment to human rights, justice, and the rule of law, right?
I trust such pundits will be revisiting their opinions in light of this development.
Leelee for Obama
@Leelee for Obama: I think that this revelation comes under the Roosevelt Rule: I want to do, now go out and make me.
Politically, this is very difficult, as we all know. If, big if, we can get all the other domestic stuff passed, so that we can re-build our country, then we can still prosecute this stuff. As much damage as Bush et al has done to other countries-the damage to our own will be un-fixable if it’s not done now. Having moral authority in the world is necessary, but without an economy, who in the world will care.
El Cid
I would think that the rightists would have a major problem with them being “mock” executions.
WereBear
What I don’t get is that they do make up their own facts; and yet they are so ugly and nasty.
If I wanted to live in my own twilight world of fantasy, it would have butterflies and unicorns and sunshine.
These people dwell in Hades. On purpose.
Davis X. Machina
Government incompetence. This is why we need private contractors.
mclaren
As a practical matter, wouldn’t you expect such tactics to destroy the interrogators’ credibility?
Imagine you get put through a drumhead military tribunal, you’re found guilty, told you’re going to be executed, you get your last meal, they drag you from your cell and put a black bag over your head, haul you out into a courtyard, the bag gets yanked off your head and the guy in charge of the firing squad asks if you have any last words. “Glory to allah!” you shout and then come the commands “Ready…aim…fire!” And the guns go off.
But they’re blanks.
So now they haul you back to your cell and the interrogators come back in and tell you that they’ve got your wife and children in custody and they’re going to torture them to death unless you give up your info.
A reasonable person would laugh uproariously. After all, if the interrogators have proven nothing they say can be trusted, why should you believe them now?
At this point, anyone who has been through a mock execution will simply sit back and smile. “Whatever you say is a lie, so it doesn’t matter,” will be the detainee’s response to any statement the interrogator makes from now on.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Like torture, this is just plain dumb. It’s a veritable “how-to” manual for “How not to get useful information from a prisoner.”
WereBear
I wasn’t about actually getting information.
It was about appearing to get information with these “extreme tactics” so they could more plausibly lie about it later.
And the sick power trips. Also.
Kirk Spencer
@mclaren: And with that and a bit of free association, something clicked in my mind.
These people are the Bolan and Remo fans. Mack Bolan (the Executioner) and Remo Williams (the Destroyer), that is. Law is for the little people, violence solves much, the enemy is always there and is everywhere, secrecy is the way…
They wanted to be Mack and Remo when they grew up, and failing that they wanted to be Mack and Remo’s BFFs.
El Cid
What is important to remember is that they KEPT US SAFE for, um, seven years.
r€nato
@El Cid:
In about 3 weeks, Obama will have officially kept us safe longer than GW Bush did.
El Cid
@r€nato: Yeah, but only by surrendering and allowing Al Qa’ida to run our Nazi healthcare DEATH PANELS.
wasabi gasp
Hoh boy, serve up a little fakin’ bacon and the hippies start bustin’ a yolk.
Jay B.
A reasonable person would laugh uproariously. After all, if the interrogators have proven nothing they say can be trusted, why should you believe them now?
Let me know after being kept awake for a few days, in between beatings, hearing the sound of a power drill in your ears and being told it’s going to be stuck in your forehead how loudly you’d be laughing.
sgwhiteinfla
Chuck Todd was shovelling so much CW last night on Bill Maher’s show it was ridiculous and I expect he will come out early and often to say that this story has the chance to kill health care reform. He fancies himself a fortune teller rather than a reporter and I am sure he will also predict that the Obama administration will just look the other way so they can get their legislative agenda through.
Don’t get me wrong, Todd’s views will end up being pretty much the Villager consensus but he seems to actually be getting worse. The guy made me want to reach through the screen and punch his smug obnoxious ass last night. He got exposed as the pretentious self absorbed prick that you only get to see a hint of on MSNBC.
joe from Lowell
Chuck Todd was so good as polling/public opinion analyst during the campaign, but as a general political pundit, he’s just another undistinguished hack.
So sad.
Jackie
Everytime I think , in order to keep the dems in line ,that maybe I outght to try to vote for a more moderate Republican , if they manage to make one( and I live in Cook County Illinois and we have at least a 15% graft surtax) I will remember this. I will never vote for another republican. I can live with theft and mismanagement but I will never forgive them for torture.
We had a decent Green ticket this year in local races and I threw them my protest votes. I can’t be the only left/center voter in the country who is now an official DFH. I may not have an attractive choice on the dem side but I’m always going to have someone to vote against.
SGEW
Dammit, we do.
Because:
Up until the day it kills you.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Jackie:
This.
We have two major political parties in this country. The party of corrupt hacks, bought-and-paid-for corporate whores, and pants-pissing cowards. And then we have the party of “say what you like about National Socialism, but at least it has an ethos” – or, as I sometimes refer to them, the Native Sons and Daughters of America Party.
The fear, anger, loathing and hatred that it provokes in me, having to choose between these two alternatives every 2 years, is going to be the death of me.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Jackie:
This.
We have two major political parties in this country. The party of corrupt hacks, bought-and-paid-for corporate whores, and pants-pissing cowards. And then we have the party of “say what you like about National Socia1-ism, but at least it has an ethos” – or, as I sometimes refer to them, the Native Sons and Daughters of America Party.
The fear, anger, loathing and hatred that it provokes in me, having to choose between these two alternatives every 2 years, is going to be the death of me.
/my apologies if this appears as a double comment, the prev version got stuck in moderation
henqiguai
From the top…
And on top of all the other reasons for why we do need to know this, you can also go with the “I know about it, but I choose to ignore it”. All about that informed choice and an informed citizenry and the workings of democracy and stuff. But that’s just me.
And along with all the other stuff that’s steadily coming out, these are the sorts of things that are constantly informing my choices when it comes to not only my vote, but also my vocal support/opposition and even presence at governmental meetings (small town, small government).
Ignorance is never informed.
Ye Cats
Pffft. They are only mock executions, no doubt Rumsfeld got mock executed every working day. And after standing for 8 hours too, also!
AhabTRuler
I think the word you are looking for is ‘establishment’. The Dem’s behavior is entirely predictable and totally unsurprising given how successful the Repub’s have been electorally over the past 30 or so years.
The radicals are in charge on the Right, and as of now they are more interested in burning the house down than dividing it, but the Dem’s still aren’t going to get too far ahead of corporate interests and independent voters (y’know, morons).
Chad N Freude
@TimO, @asiangrrlMN:
I respectfully disagree.
Because airing it may:
* raise the possibility of shaming those responsible even if they are not prosecuted.
* reduce the influence of those responsible.
* increase pressure to prosecute.
* reduce the likelihood that similar outrages will occur in the future.
Because Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it
And I object to the word “need” in this context. Is this depravity ever needed outside a script for “24”?
Chad N Freude
So much for trying to make a bullet list. Anyway, you get the idea.
AhabTRuler
@Chad N Freude: Don’t try anything fancy here, it will only end in frustration and disappointment. Completing a post with your blockquote intact should be considered a major victory alone.
valdivia
@joe from Lowell:
this.
ominira
Sigh. Can we swap Eric Holder for Balthazar Garzon just for a month or two?
ppcli
Yeah, Yeah. Dostoevski was mock-executed when he was a prisoner of the Tsar, and he was just fine afterwards. Just read his stuff An almost boringly normal guy. No psychological damage at all….
renko
John and TimO,
Yes, we do.
Objectively, what occurred during the bush regime must be publicly tried and prosecuted. The likely fact that it won’t be, doesn’t lessen the moral imperative that it SHOULD be.
Perhaps the way to look at it is that if we don’t learn about it, it will happen again.
Just look at the 70s and Cointelpro (which DID just reoccur).
Or look at raygun’s IranContra, Arms for Hostages, and Cocaine Running. Remember the BCCI scandal.
Any real investigations of those, fully prosecuted would have eliminated a good chunk of bush/cheney personnel from public life and political viability.
The fact that it’ll be politically inconvenient because of the GOP’s treasonous, anti-constitutional, Weimar-American brownshirt brigades doesn’t mean that investigations and (hopefully) prosecutions aren’t necessary.
(And, of course, obama’s signing off on the ongoing cover-ups doesn’t help).
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@AhabTRuler:
…and thus we have all of American progressive politics summed up a nice tidy little metaphor.
Good job!
Fred Beloit
Oh noes. We showed terrorists a weapon. Bet they never saw one of thems before. Well, at least we didn’t cut off their fingers. Yeah, yeah, I know, two wrongs don’t make a right. Just don’t try to sell the crazy that our enemies are OK guys.
http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-08-22-voa8.cfm
Cerberus
I’m actually oddly heartened by this news. I had pretty much assumed that we were carrying out actual executions back when we weren’t even letting international groups now who we were detaining. It’s good that we stopped at the mock aspect at least officially.
But yeah on the greater level, we need prosecutions. This is our post-war germany moment and we won’t be able to exorcize those demons unless we purge them now. Otherwise we’ll be like Japan, desperately trying to pretend we never went to China.
Chad N Freude
@Fred Beloit:
I must have missed the postings that said that. Could you point them out for me?
And I’m not sure what your point is. Does their not-OKness justify our being equally not OK?
bey
My best friend is convinced that the reason Obama isn’t pressing war crimes trials is fear of CIA/FBI/Secret Service retribution.
I’d feel a lot more comfortable dismissing that if she hadn’t been right about everything else.
Uloborus
I am also kind of interested this stuff keeps slipping out now when the Bushies kept it down to mere rumor. And all the while Obama waves his hand and mumbles tepidly, “No, no, executive privelege.”. He gets a lot of flak for continuing Bush policies on executive power, but they keep degrading. Not sure how I feel about that. Greenwald and his peers have an excellent point that morally Obama should flat-out repudiate this stuff regardless, I’m relectant to go whole hog on Obama Jujitsu, and I’m worried that things like this could be leaked just to further discredit republicans. But you know, slowly the Bush excesses seem to degrade, including secret-keeping, and I *think* Obama said once he’d rather these powers be taken away from him. I may be miscrediting discussion from constitutional lawyers like Greenwald.
Who I have the highest respect for, by the way. I don’t agree with his level of negativity, but we NEED people like him to intelligently, soberly, with reference to sources, remind us of our government’s failures.
Chad N Freude
@bey:
Perhaps your friend should watch fewer paranoid political thrillers. OTOH, we did once have J Edgar Hoover in charge of the FBI, so maybe …
Brick Oven Bill
The concept of limited war and proper care of prisoners is largely a European Christian concept. The more widely accepted method of historic conflict is total war. It is impossible to celebrate other cultures without acknowledging this fact. For instance, Native American warfare was genocidal warfare. African warfare is genocidal warfare. When Arab populations encounter Sub-Saharan populations, it results in ethnic cleansing. Muslim populations, when given the opportunity, practice genocide against Christian populations. Add Pol Pot, a thousand others, and you get the idea.
This concept that we have an obligation to treat prisoners from Neolithic backgrounds to first world standards is new, brought on by the surpluses provided by fossil fuels, as unleashed by the tractor. To win the battle of ideas with Islamic populations, it is necessary to go after the family members of Theological leadership, as evidenced by the successful efforts of Ataturk, Tito, Hussein, the Shah, and the US effort against the MILFs in the Philippines.
Short of these methods, the teachings of Mohammed will prevail. Mohammed taught total warfare, and was very visionary in his teachings. This is why we should just get out of the Middle East, and let those people live at whatever level of societal equilibrium they can achieve. You cannot wrestle with a pig without getting dirty.
Chad N Freude
@Uloborus:
And I think if he’d rather not have these powers he could repudiate them and not exercise them. OTOH maybe he’s an excessive-executive-power addict and needs an intervention.
TimO
@Chad N Freude: I agree for the most part, like I said, I wrote my comment with great reservation.
As far as “need”, I was referring to the need for intelligence on activites potentially harmful to our citizens, and the lack of need to; torture anyone, detain anyone without probable cause, or violate anyone’s human or civil rights.
I would love to see the entire Bush Administration lined up in a court room, Nuremberg style, but I don’t think it’s going to happen.
There are plenty of battles to fight right now and the Bushies will continue to be shamed through eternity. Most mid level Bushies, like Yoo, are under virtual house arrest in this country and can’t travel outside the U.S. and that gives me some satisfaction.
I suppose we could render them, drop them on the streets of Baghdad and let fate decide.
Chad N Freude
@Brick Oven Bill:
As in the Crusades. As in the Spanish Reconquest. Oh, wait, those were anti-Muslim wars, so I guess it was OK.
As in the Spanish colonization of the Americas.
Jackie
@TimO: I’m not certain that Dick Fucking Cheney wouldn’t end up running the place. The undead have powers.
Leelee for Obama
@TimO: Hell, we could just drop them in New Orleans and let nature take it’s course. Much less expensive.
The Grand Panjandrum
Former 2LT William Calley apologized for his war crimes. He is the only person convicted of war crimes for the murders of the people of My Lai village. The people who ordered these crimina acts were either acquitted or never brought to trial.
The Germans have committed know war crimes since WWII. We hanged most of the top level war criminals. The Germans got the message.
Sure we should know about our governments war crimes, but if we don’t put the entire chain of command on trial then nothing will change. Nothing. Thirty or forty years from now a new generation will be writing about Lyndie Englund and a few others who were brought to justice. Our children and grandchildren will bemoan another administration accused of war crimes. That is the price we pay when we don’t hold our leaders accountable.
Martian Buddy
Someone really, really needs to explain to those assholes that Amnesty International reports on human rights abuses are not “to-do” checklists.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@bey:
I have a very different theory (which, judging from your friend’s track record, is probably wrong). I think that based on his reading of US history and his background as a teacher of constitutional law, that Obama has two ongoing projects which he sees as his key legacy, which are meta-level with respect to our political system, and take priority over everything else. They are:
1 – Get everybody to chill the fuck out.
2 – Restore a balance of power between the WH and Congress.
The first problem, that of excessive polarization, is I think grounded in an insight which is strongly supported by the published works of Kevin Phillips, namely that US politics is driven by cultural divides which have a strong regional, sectarian and demographic component to them, and far too often when things heat up our political struggels degenerate into what is essentially civil war conducted by other means.
I don’t know if Obama has read or is a fan of Phillips’ books, or has come to his conclusions by other routes – for example by looking back at the political history of the 1960s and 1970s (cf. Perlstein’s books). Either way, there is plenty of evidence that our politics can and most recently has very much become something composed of more heat than light. And this is more destructive to the progressive side’s agenda than it is to a conservative agenda, because fear and anger play to the conservative movement’s tactical strengths. So calming everybody down is in the long run going to benefit progressives, but this is a long range strategy, not something which is going to pay off right away, perhaps not even within Obama’s term of office.
The second problem, that of the balance of power between the Hill and the WH, is obvious to anybody familiar with 18th and 19th Cen. US politics – and being a big Lincoln fan Obama obviously belongs in this category. We used to be a nation with a strong legislature and a weak executive. The wars of the 20th Cen, the increase in the size and scope of the Federal Govt under Presidents from Hoover thru Nixon, and especially the rise of the permanent national security apparatus during the Cold War, all drained power out of Congress and tilted the balance in favor of the executive branch. To the point where under George W Bush’s administration Congress might as well have not existed at all.
I think that Obama, having spent all of his political career prior to 2009 in legislatures, and especially having spent much of that time in the IL state legislature (statehouses are typically more powerful vs. their governor than is the case at the federal level), is temperamentally disposed towards the legislative process, and is looking to prod Congress into getting back into the habit of doing the goddamm job they were elected to do, rather than just being a rubber stamp of the WH. But this is going to be a long hard slog – sort of like occupational therapy for somebody who just woke up out of a coma. And for that reason it is something that is an overarching priority for Obama, which will color everything else that he does, even if it means giving up some things which we might be able to get with more forceful leadership from the WH (see for example: health care reform, public option).
The lesson I take away, if this analysis is correct, is that to get what we want out of the Obama administration we need to do two things – work primarily through Congress, and especially by way of organizing to get more progressive Dems elected over the course of the next several elections, and to keep our arguments as civil and reasonable sounding as possible, not screaming and yelling. If we do that, we will be working with the flow of the currents coming from the Obama WH rather than against that flow.
Chad N Freude
@Jackie:
Since Cheney’s name has been brought up, I feel compelled to draw attention to a really interesting Q&A with Barton Gellman at the WaPo.
For me, the money quote is
Jackie
@Chad N Freude: Of course it is a moral failing. Can’t have that sort of thing, a democracy might break out.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
“We didn’t need to know this.”
The German public saw the trains filled with Jews going one way, and coming back empty. They didn’t want to know or ask questions. At the end of the war, US troops forced the good burghers near the camps to tour the hell that had been set up in the cause of cleansing Germany.
I’m sure they didn’t want to know – but they needed to be showed.
You don’t want to know what your intelligence services are doing.
You’re a citizen of a democratic republic. What is being done is being done in your name. To deliberately remain ignorant is to silence yourself. To remain silent is to condone it. To condone it is to share in the responsibility.
You need to know what is happening. If you can’t cope with that, you should probably give up your citizenship, because you’re not able to accept your reponsibility as a citizen.
Brick Oven Bill
Both the Crusades and the Spanish treatment of Mesoamericans happened before the surpluses introduced by fossil fuels and the tractor. The American intervention in the Philippines happened right about the same time as the introduction of the tractor, and thus our handwringing of the time and the poem ‘White Man’s Burden’.
The University of Illinois’ mascot is a Chief of the Illini tribe. There were 20,000 Illini in the 1600s. These were nearly wiped out by the Iroquois. By 1800 there were only 250 Illini left, and they sought European Christian protection in 1803.
Cassidy
@Brick Oven Bill: I”m not sure you know what you’re talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war
Leelee for Obama
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: I have thought such as this, but you said it better and clearer. Jeebus, I hope you’re right.
Chad N Freude
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
I don’t wish to denigrate your theory, — I’d like to thing it’s correct — but, like all the other
mind-readinghypothetical analyses, it’s based on suppositions that amount to wishful thinking. One could just as easily construct an argument that Obama is attempting a Machiavellian change from a democratic republic to a fascist dictatorship, based on RedState style assumptions.Chad N Freude
@Chad N Freude:
That should have been “think”. Damn keyboard!
Chad N Freude
@Brick Oven Bill:
At least they were smart enough not to seek European Jewish protection.
I’m not smart enough to get the point you’re making here. Is it that European Christian warfare “before the surpluses introduced by fossil fuels and the tractor” doesn’t count? Is it that the behavior of European Christian colonists towards the indigenous peoples who burdened the white man was an example of “limited war and proper care of prisoners”?
gwangung
@Chad N Freude:
I’m not certain that ThatLeftTurn’s thesis is an over-riding strategy for Obama; however, I am convinced that it’s part of his underlying philosophy.
Given the tendency on the liberal blogs to place the onus on the administration for not doing this and not doing that, my thought is the progressive elements are not nearly as prepared as they should be to take advantage of Obama’s election. They certainly weren’t prepared for right wing pushback on health care, when it was clear to all that the Republicans staked everything on stopping it.
Winning elections is a necessary condition to enacting progressive ideas but it is not sufficient. But the behavior of progressive elements seem more predicated on the former than the latter.
Chad N Freude
@gwangung:
What you say about progressive elements is probably true, but I think it’s a pointless exercise to attempt to divine Obama’s underlying philosophy or his true intent from the available evidence, which appears to me to be filled with ambiguity, uncertainty, and contradiction.
Brick Oven Bill
The Wikipedia description of Total War does not do justice to the teachings of Mohammed. Total War requires the subjugation of females to maximize birthrates. Total War also includes polygamy, to promote propagation of the strongest male genes, and to free up the balance of the males to fight as sexually frusturated young men, as Allah does not allow these surplus males to pleasure themselves. Therefore creating cranky and effective warriors.
Also from the American Indian link above. The Illini tribe, showing mercy for their starving neighbors, sent 500 men with food to the Winnebago tribe. Who ate the food, and those 500 Illini who brought it to them. Somehow, those handwringers who wrote ‘Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee’ did not see fit to do a movie on this particular incident.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
or, as I sometimes refer to them, the Native Sons and Daughters of America Party.
I saw what you did there!
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@gwangung:
I think progressives have been hampered by unrealistic expectations. Realistically there are roughly six major power centers in DC – the WH, the Pentagon and its allies elsewhere in the sprawling national security complex, the Senate, the House, SCOTUS, and the media-infotainment complex. Dems, not all of whom are by any means progressive, have since 2006 gotten control over the WH and the House. That’s it. The Pentagon, SCOTUS and the media are all still dominated by the right, and the Senate is a battleground right now – there may be 60 Dems but structure and tradition in the Senate favor gridlock, which provides an advantage to the right counterbalancing the number of Dems in that chamber.
So to use a sports metaphor, it’s half-time and the game is tied. Progressives who think “We won! Can we go to Disneyland now?” are underestimating how much of the power in DC is still stacked against our agenda.
Cassidy
@Brick Oven Bill: Um…no. Total War is a tactic to break the back of your enemy by destroying supply lines, decimating the populace to change popular support, etc. The sum total of the effort is to starve your enemy and its support base. This has nothing to do with polygamy. Systematic rape can be a part of it, and is not only practiced by brown people; see Bosnia, Kosovo, etc.
Chad N Freude
@Brick Oven Bill:
I find your description of Total War as interesting as it is disconcerting. Could you provide an authoritative reference? Possibly a creditable historian?
I am also somewhat bemused by your discussion of the Illini tribe. Are you holding them up as examples of persecution by non-European-Christian peoples? Or are you suggesting that non-Christian-Europeans are barbarians? What are you trying to persuade your readers here to conclude?
Fred Beloit
Well, Chad Freude, #58, I never said I read it somewhere, but this will do for now:
http://www.seraphicpress.com/archives/2009/06/i_was_raped_by.php
Brick Oven Bill
Total War is the propagation of a particular genome. This includes maximizing birthrates of humans with similar genomes. This will likely in the future include the seeding of conquered females with embryos from the victors. This is much more efficient than rape.
Islam’s version of Total War has worked exceptionally well for 1400 years, numbering over 1 billion Muslims. But the weapons that modern medicine now present humanity are something that Hitler could only dream of. Islam in its current form cannot take advantage of these weapons based on its rejection of the Liberal Arts and faith-based issues.
People of unfortunate genetic makeup who are pushing for the assignment of varying values to human beings through this health plan, and a strong state are stupid. Strong states sooner or later become efficient.
I’d prefer to live in a traditional Christian society with a minimal government, but this does not appear to be in the cards. The 20th Century saw a seven-fold expansion of humanity, the 21st Century will most likely see the contraction of humanity. There will be competition for resources. The Illini and Winnebago tribes are examples of the nature of man when resources are scarce.
This outrage over a mock execution is kind of silly.
gil mann
Just don’t try to sell the crazy that our enemies are OK guys.
Gotta agree with Fred here. As the proprietor of Gil’s Bullshit Non-Sequitors for Mendacious Asswipes to Put in Other People’s Mouths Emporium, I’d really rather not have the competition. Niche market and all.
Chad N Freude
@Fred Beloit:
Thanks for the link. But
is presented without any supporting evidence. She may have sympathized before, but her sanity after is certainly open to question. Unless the author can come up with some sort of evidence, I will continue make the mistake of assuming she is living in her own private universe.
Chad N Freude
@Brick Oven Bill:
Have you considered Vatican City?
Chad N Freude
@Brick Oven Bill:
Help! Stop me before I draw another obvious inference!
Chad N Freude
@gil mann:
Are you? Talkin’ to me?
Phenobarbarella
I’ve argued with too many of these blockheaded asshats on right-wing blogs (or just right-wing asshats on ordinary blogs) to doubt your prediction of at least a week’s-worth of apologism-by-comparison regarding these mock executions the CIA (or was it Blackwater, under CIA authority?) supposedly carried out. You’re absolutely correct.
What has always gobsmacked me (even though it probably shouldn’t, at least not any longer) is how the very elementary logical chain of moral reasoning simply doesn’t occur to these wingnuts: is that really how we’re conducting ourselves (or setting our own thresholds for acceptable behavior)? That we’re not-quite-as-bad as the worst motherfuckers on the planet? That it’s somehow OK to waterboard and mock-execute, as long as we don’t actually saw prisoners’ heads off with dull knives and then broadcast the event on the Internet? When did we start allowing our own behavior to be dictated by what non-governmental nihilist assholes used as their standards of “wartime” behavior? Is this really the argument our good friends in right-blogsylvania wish to make? What does that say about them?
gil mann
@Chad N Freude:
Talkin’ to me?
It was meant for Fred. Pretty sloppy diss, though, I shoulda tightened it up a little.
angulimala
For some reason, mock executions bother me significantly less than excessive use of sleep deprivation or waterboarding or other forms of physical torture that promise unceasing agony without the release of death.
Dave_Violence
This has frat hazing stunt written all over it.
Davis X. Machina
@ ThatLeftTurnInABQ
If he does those two things, and only those two things, I could overlook a hell of a lot. One of the reasons why Congress has become a monkey house is that it hasn’t mattered, really, who got sent to it. Like student government on a national scale, when you know the principal really runs the show.
Davis X. Machina
hmn… blockquote tags seem not to be persistent across paragraph breaks….
@ ThatLeftTurnInABQ
If he does those two things, and only those two things, I could overlook a hell of a lot. One of the reasons why Congress has become a monkey house is that it hasn’t mattered, really, who got sent to it. Like student government on a national scale, when you know the principal really runs the show
Davis X. Machina
Better, but still not right.
Leelee for Obama
@Davis X. Machina: Once again Davis-that is pure gold. The monkey house describes it perfectly-sometimes better, most times not and the Senate is obstructionist by law. It should have to be manned (womaned?) by smart people, not talking heads.
Chad N Freude
@Davis X. Machina:
So far, it looks like going from absolute power in the WH to absolute power in the congressional minority.
The blockquote paragraph boundary feature has gotten me, too. All praise to our benevolent computer programming overlords.
Davis X. Machina
Part of the problem is the coalition nature of the Democratic ‘majority’. The present Congressional Democrats aren’t quite as obviously a duct-tape coalition as, say, the Democrats of 1854-60, but they’re close.
Much of the whole sixty-votes-nuclear-option-anonymous-hold-etc. foo-fraw is a symptom of a diseased, and diminished, Congress. It’s a political version of the fighting by the denizens of a lifeboat over the last keg of water — no one would bother to throw a punch if the water were present in normal amounts.
Comrade Luke
Please!
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let’s not bicker and argue over who killed who.
Fulcanelli
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: Great post, ABQ.
If I could add one thing it would be that we need to put the MSM, the Villagers and their corporate overlords in fear of not only losing advertising dollars, but in fear for their lives if they continue to spin and slant news coverage and discussion panels so overwhelmingly to the extreme right.
It’s one thing to go be an asshole politician, go on the TV and lie and spin, it’s another to broadcast, legitimize and perpetuate those lies to the overwhelming detriment of the voting, taxpaying public and not even dare question these self-serving, lying sacks of lizard shit to their faces.
Good Example: Lawrence O’Donnell pwning Texas Rep. Culbertson, calling him a liar repeatedly to his face. Wearing that big, Irish grin of his.
Bad Example: Tweety having death-eater Tom DeLay on repeatedly and yukking it up, acting as though DeLay was just a good ole’ boy who got caught with his fingers in the cookie jar instead of the corrupt, loathsome politician he is who just happens to single handedly embody everything that is utterly and hopelessly fucked with politicians in this country.
They are the ones who are fucking things up to the level it’s at. They are the messengers of our doom.
Chad N Freude
@Davis X. Machina:
Pretty much what you said. The rules that increase in number and complexity every time the majority changes. The growth of committees to parcel out Power! to colleagues with backs to scratch. Diseased and diminished indeed. Congress has come to be spelled d-y-s-f-u-n-c-t-i-o-n.
JK
Liz Cheney will be all over the airwaves next week defending this insanity.
Fran Townshend is a reprehensible lying asshole.
Interrobang
Wow, BOB thinks that all Muslims are genetically identical. Considering that I live in the sticks and I’ve met Muslims who look like everything from Han Chinese to African black to prospective members of Stormfront, that’s the stupidest fucking thing I’ve heard all day.
Cassidy
@Brick Oven Bill: You are the conversational equivalent of an out of body experience.
Chad N Freude
@Cassidy:
Especially since he never seems to respond directly to anyone. As they used to say “Out of body, out of mind”. Which, by the way, is the solution to the Mind/Body problem.
kay
Does anyone know anything about FOIA filings? Is there some reason the ACLU has to bankroll all this litigation?
Shouldn’t newspapers be interested in finding out what happened here?
I don’t know how a non-profit ended up doing all the heavy lifting on torture fact-gathering.