Been a long, long week and it is only Wednesday, so I went over to Brian and Tammy’s for dinner. Bruschetta and spaghetti with meatballs and some mojitos (a thematically challenged dinner and beverage combo, but good, nonetheless). All was well until Tammy bent over to give Lily kisses and she bit Tammy on the nose. Have to work on that, I suppose. At any rate, Sam and Lily got along:
As a bonus, here is Sammie walking around with a leaf latched on to her whiskers:
Hope all is well your way.
John +fuggetaboutit
JK
For JGabriel or anyone else who thinks they have a firm grasp of their rock music history and genres.
We had an interesting discussion earlier about the distinctions between art rock, prog rock, and glam rock.
If you were explaining the history of rock music to an anal retentive novice who insisted on a label or tag being applied to the following: The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Who, Led Zeppelin, what tags would you assign to these bands?
jwb
Love the leaf. (Looks like Sammie’s found herself a stogy.)
Kirk Spencer
@JK: Golden Oldies
The next-to-last samurai
Lily bit the person who HADN’T made her wear that football stuff?! How very odd. Is the bitee ok?
JK
@Kirk Spencer:
I don’t know how old you, but when I hear Golden Oldies I associate that term with the music that preceded the British invasion.
Brick Oven Bill
LauraW is very perceptive, rivaling but not yet meeting the standards of Glenn Beck. She appears to be able to really work me over good. But then again, every onion has many layers.
That was a pretty good show that me and Sarah watched this afternoon, and if you missed it, check it out tonight at 2am EST. What Beck is doing might just get some things named for him one of these days. He is, in many ways, just like Jesse James.
mai naem
It doesn’t look like a leaf. It looks like a piece of bacon.
Annie
Seeing Lily and Sam reminds us not everything is going to hell. They are our reality check (along with Tunch of course).
What does it take to regain civil discourse? One moment the right is crying about “government-sponsored” health care, at the same time they scare seniors with cuts to Medicare.
At the same time they sympathize with someone denied health insurance due to a “pre-existing condition,” conservatives in Congress retain their “government-sponsored” health care, and say the answer is for neighbors to return to carrying for each other.
They lie about the health care provided for everyone in other countries, while shouting that our health care is the best in the world. Is it??? Health care is the best for those who can afford it and are not burdened with having to try and get it.
“Death panels” don’t exist, yet these non-existent entities have stolen the debate.
We don’t even know what we are arguing for anymore, which is exactly the way conservatives want it to be.
If conservatives are for the “free” market, let conservatives be the first to forego their provided health care, and try and go out in the market place and get it. That would be a real “eye opener.”
What conservatives don’t have “pre-existing” conditions? Have Republicans in Congress tried getting health insurance and paying for it “out-of-pocket?”
I have friends that have tried to hide past health concerns in order to try and get health insurance.
My health bill came for a routine check-up and for the life of me, I did not understand what they were telling me. If I loose my health insurance, am I now on record as having a “pre-existing condition” because I had a routine check-up?
gsp
The honeymoons over, Johnny boy. Say hello to the real ‘Lily.’
Comrade Darkness
Personally, if I were a small predator, I’d be sensitive to larger predators coming at me with their mouths. Just me.
gsp
@mai naem:
Stole it from Tunch though he could afford to forgo bacon for a year or two.
MBSS
dougj referred to a truffaut movie the other day. and another commenter recommended day for night.
i just finished watching it, and i thought it was great. i like the meta film industry plot, in the same sense as 8 1/2. also the scene where the cat fails to hit his mark, and drink the milk, is classic.
good call, people.
cbear
Bending or leaning over a dog’s head or shoulders is a sign of dominance and/or aggression in dog language and they often will respond with aggression–either out of fright or to establish/reaffirm their order in the pack.
Lily knows that you are the alpha dog and she may very well have sensed that your friend was trying to usurp her place in your little pack. Or maybe she was just startled.
Genine
Awww, I hope Tammy’s nose is OK! If you’re still there, though, I assume all is well.
Seeing pet pics is just what the doctored ordered for today.
MikeJ
@jwb: Was that an apelad reference?
smiley
I once had a pet who I loved a great deal attack a friend on mine rather viciously. No idea why. Good thing is it was a cat and not a dog – or bull — or….
geg6
JK: I gave what I thought was a thoughtful answer to that question in the last thread. It’s too long to type on the CrackBerry again, but if you’d like to read it and come back here and discuss it, I’d be grateful and happy.
MikeJ
Popular, cool for a tribute band, The Only Band That Mattered before the only band that mattered, overrated.
SiubhanDuinne
I have on Tweety’s program on the Kennedy brothers on MSNBC and while it has nothing that hasn’t been shown and said several million times over the past 45 years, I was struck by the constellation of three events that make it all as current as the summer of 2009: clips from the 1960 Kennedy-Nixon debate, which of course was directed by Don Hewitt; the iconic announcement of JFK’s assassination by Walter Cronkite; and youngest brother Teddy waiting in the wings.
geg6
Siubhan Duinne: Nice catch! I hadn’t caught it myself, but you’re right. Wonder if Tweety noticed it when he put it together? He’s not always the brightest bulb in the box, you know.
jwb
@MikeJ: Infinite monkeys and all that. No, it was just my lame observation. But I’ll take your interpretation.
Kirk Spencer
@JK: I’m almost eligible to be a member of AARP. Nonetheless, let’s look at it a moment. For most people, “golden oldies” is the appropriate name for the music that your parents listened to — at the latest, while you were in your early years.
Beatles last album release: 1970. Older than anyone under the age of 39. Probably “golden oldie” for anyone under the mid-40s.
The Rolling Stones are interesting. On the one hand they’ve released albums as recently as last year. On the other hand, well, it’s worth noting that although every ‘new release’ album goes gold, they’re all consistently touted as “the band’s finally got itself together – best album since Tattoo You.” That was 1981 – 28 years old, and probably golden oldie for people in their mid-30s. Add to this the fact that when people start rattling off ‘what songs do you think of when you think of the Stones’ the date gets pushed further back.
The Who. Endless Wire (2006) is a “comeback” album. The last album prior to that was It’s Hard (1982). 27 years old, and ‘golden oldie’ for people in their early 30s.
Led Zeppelin. While Coda (1982) was their last album it was after Bonham’s death and the breakup – an album of outtakes and scraps. The ‘real’ last album was In through the Out Door (1979). 30 years old, and probably an oldie for people in their mid-30s.
Worth noting, I think, is that all four bands started in the 1960s. The Stones lack 3 years of having a “Golden Album” (50 years together).
So yes, I think I can get away with calling them “golden oldies”.
SiubhanDuinne
@ geg6/9:45 pm
He certainly didn’t say anything in his narration. In fact he didn’t even mention Hewitt’s name, that was just something that jumped out at me because we had a fair amount of Hewitt coverage last week. But you know, it’s quite likely that most of this program was edited some time ago, maybe even before Uncle Walter died. And of course the program is about The K brothers not about “Wooo, coincidence?”
But thank you for the compliment :-)
Demo Woman
So what did Tammy do wrong? Today friends came over that the Moxie loves and after many kisses and greetings, one pulled out his sunglasses and she hid under the table and refused to come out. You might have to work with Tammy also.
JK
@geg6:
I agree with your tags for the Rolling Stones, the Who, and Zeppelin. I have a problem with using pop for the Beatles. I’ve generally been in the habit of using pop for music I don’t like and rock for music I do like. Given that the Beatles are my favorite band, I wouldn’t use the term to describe their music.
@MikeJ:
The Beatles – Popular
The Rolling Stones – Cool for a tribute band
The Who – The Only Band That Mattered before the only band that mattered
Led Zeppelin – Overrated.
This is an interesting response. This begs the question, who is the only band that mattered?
Redshirt
Who’s Brian and Tammy, if I might ask?
John Cole
@Redshirt: Friend’s of mine for a decade or better.
JK
@Kirk Spencer:
You’ve offered some valid and persuasive arguments. I appreciate your perspective. Nevertheless, I’ll continue limiting my use of “Golden Oldies” to the music of Chuck Berry, Fats Domino, Little Richard, Elvis Presley, Buddy Holly, Carl Perkins, Bo Diddley, Gene Vincent, Eddie Cochran, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Bill Halley.
Max
So, of course, Fox News has already begun their Kennedy hate fest. Wankers.
Good news, Dick Cheney will be dead soon. I hope MSNBC is putting their reel together on him.
Please understand, I am in no way saying those two people are equivalent. I’m just saying that the loathing the right-wingers have for Teddy (totally unjustified) is equivalent to the loathing sane people have for Cheney (totally fucking justified).
So, I guess I understand Fox not being respectful. I have no intention of being respectful when Dick’s pacemaker finally gives out.
You Don't Say
So, John, was Tammy OK? And how did Lily react when it was all over?
Corner Stone
@Kirk Spencer: Oh, fucking bah-zing!
Corner Stone
@JK: God dammit man, how the fuck old are you sir?
JK
@Corner Stone: What difference does it make in connection to the question I posed?
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@JK: “Pop” music changes over time. The Beatles (especially the early stuff) was pop music at the time.
Your question is tough. It is impossible to pick one band. But if I had to, it would be the Beatles. Their influence cannot be overstated IMHO.
Here’s a question: if you think there is a such thing as a modern music pantheon or canon (defined for purposes of this question as starting with the rock n’ roll era), who since 1990 do you believe is likely to be in it?
Arguments can be made for the Beatles, Stones, Who etc., but which of the more recent bands make it in. R.E.M? U2, Pearl Jam? Wilco? Nirvana? Coldplay?
Any of the above? Fast forward 20 years and who will be the bands from 1990ish to 2010ish that people were classify as “Great?”
demkat620
Well, BOB, might be a good idea to ask Rick Santorum how great it is to have something named after you.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine: I hate the lack of preview.
My picks would be U2, R.E.M. (on the strength of their 80’s catalogue), Wilco, Radiohead for sure.
Phish is probably in the discussion. Coldplay probably is too if they crank out a few more good albums. Dave Matthews is a tough one – strong personal connection as a UVA grad while they were there – but like Widespread Panic, I think are a bit niche. They have been immensely popular though.
A few others I am missing for sure.
jwb
@JK: If you asked somebody in the industry, they’d probably say that broadly speaking rock is aimed at adolescent boys, whereas pop is aimed at adolescent girls. Since most popular music critics are male, and everyone retains strong feelings (whether good or bad) for the music they identified with as a teenager, you can see how the a value system that denigrates the term “pop” music fell into place.
By this definition, the Beatles were certainly pop music when they began. I once heard a paper that convincingly argued that they became rock by silencing the screams of their female fans.
JK
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine: I like U2, REM, Pearl Jam and Coldplay. I don’t care for Nirvana or Wilco. I’m at a loss to name any artists besides Pearl Jam or Coldplay from 1990 onwards that I’d consider for pantheon.
My musical preferences leans heavily towards the 1960’s and to lesser extent the late 1970’s and early 1980’s.
Fuck the NY Yankees. Can’t a Yankee hater get a fucking break anymore?
jdw
Open thread – Terra Alta, merino sheep, live free or die, West Virginia,
happy pet detente, sad old DFH, go for it kids, it is up to you all.
Makewi
No mention of the Dead. John is ashamed of you people. As am I.
JK
@jwb:
“I once heard a paper that convincingly argued that they [The Beatles] became rock by silencing the screams of their female fans”
I’ve never heard that statement before but it’s a clever line of reasoning.
arguingwithsignposts
Tell me about it. I got home from work today, sat down with the laptop on my lap and proceeded to fall asleep for 4 hours! I’m probably screwed at getting back to sleep before the wee hours. Probably for the best as reading the news would have made me pop a vein in my neck.
The GOP wants us to slow down on health care in memory of dear ole Ted.
sigh.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@jwb: Good distinction. I like that. I read an interesting article recently (can’t remember where, but I want to say the New Yorker) that said one of the the amazing things about U2 is that they keep bringing in new and younger fans with every album they release, fans who identify with only the most recent albums.
I think the contrast was made to the Rolling Stones that concert goers to their shows suffer the new stuff and go crazy for the classics.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@Makewi: The Dead are in the pantheon without question – top ten I would argue.
arguingwithsignposts
@JK:
a favorite joke, from back in the days when Michele Catalano was a big-time pro-war blogger running “A Small Victory” (a well-known yankees fan):
Q. Who are the world champions in baseball this year?
A. NOT the NY Yankees.
Libertini
@Max:
Nor I. I will be dancing in the street and no one can stop me.
JK
@arguingwithsignposts: The GOP wants to bring the nation back to the Stone Age. This would work out well for Sarah Palin because as we were told ad nauseaum during the campaign, she’s a great hunter and gatherer although she has nothing happening upstairs.
Libertini
Oops. Apparently, I am a blockquote blockhead. The quoted part is “I have no intention of being respectful when Dick’s pacemaker finally gives out.”
General Winfield Stuck
Just have to bring this on. From Rick Moran, a so called thinking wingnut. His take of Ted Kennedy.
Which was preceded by this
His vile personal peccaddilloes. Don’t we all have some of those Peckerwood Rick?
This passes for praise from the right, or damning by alleged praise.
arguingwithsignposts
@Max:
@Libertini:
I was under the impression one had to have a heart to have a use for a pacemaker.
MikeJ
What fans of the Clash used to say. In good capitalist tradition, you can get t shirts proclaiming that the Clash were the only band that matters. Which isn’t nearly as much fun as shelling out $18 for a ¡Sandinista! t shirt.
For your later list of U2, REM, PJ, coldplay, nirvana, wilco:
good and better the more you listen, great and better when you see them at the 40 watt[1], ok, dull, likey, likey.
And fuck the yankees. Fuck them, fuck them, fuck them.
[1] seeing rem live brings up many fun stories about dating gymnasts in college, friends being kicked off stage so the “corn cob webs” could play, and bill berry’s broken answering machine. Fun to me when I’ve had much beer anyway.
JK
@arguingwithsignposts: I want the Yankees to get knocked out in the 1st damn round of the playoffs. The more wins they rack up, the more I hate them. Pete Hamill said it best: “Rooting for the NY Yankees is like rooting for US Steel”. The Yankees are the coldest, most soul-less, corporate team in all of professional sports.
Warren Terra
@ demkat620, #35
BOB’s comment was just such a target-rich environment:
You, BOB likes to fantasize about his closeness with his idol the Iquitarod champion. The less said about these fantasies the better.
OK, for those needing a quick potted history, here is a link to the Wikipedia page. Some points that BOB is apparently unaware of:
I guess it’s true: you can tell a lot about people from their heroes.
To be fair, in one of the very few nice things I’ll ever say about Glenn Beck, I’m not aware of any significant similarities between him and Jesse James.
gbear
@JK:
I used to think that too, but Golden Oldies seems to have morphed into anything that came before the music that ‘Classic Rock’ stations play.
I’ll admit to being completely bewildered the first time I heard a ‘Golden Oldies’ station playing a ‘Captain and Me’ era Doobie Brothers song. I felt very old.
Now I associate ‘classic rock’ with songs that radio programmers listened to before their brains died in the late-70’s. Everything they play from beyond that date sound like something they liked before that date.
JK
@MikeJ:
From your previous response to labeling these bands
The Beatles – Popular
The Rolling Stones – Cool for a tribute band
The Who – The Only Band That Mattered before the only band that mattered
Led Zeppelin – Overrated.
This begs the question, who is the only band that mattered?
Corner Stone
@JK: Because your sample represents something very, very specific.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@MikeJ: I saw Widespread Panic in the basement of a fraternity house in 1989. Had no idea who they were at the time. Have seen them 15 or so times since.
Allan
Did you hear the one about the brain tumor that walked into a doctor’s office and said, Doc, can you help me, I have an Andrew Breitbart growing around me.
Steeplejack
@JK:
If you were explaining the history of rock music to an anal retentive novice who insisted on a label or tag being applied to the following: the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, the Who, Led Zeppelin, what tags would you assign to these bands?
Just got home, haven’t read the thread yet, but I’ll weigh in (and then read).
For all but Led Zeppelin, I would call them just plain old rock or, if your novice is really anal-retentive, “original rock” or maybe “founders rock.” They were the founding fathers, down at the root of the family tree.
I would almost grandfather Zep in, but they came along just a bit later, and to this grizzled veteran they feel (just barely) second generation, or maybe first generation and a half. Because you could see that even at their start they were following in the footsteps of the first three, whereas the founders (even though they influenced one another and fed off one another) brought most of their formative influences in from elsewhere, e.g., American blues, Tin Pan Alley, folk music, British pop music, etc.
And don’t anybody weigh in with “But Bill Haley did ‘Rock Around the Clock’ in 1956” or “The Stones just ripped off a bunch of black artists,” yadda yadda yadda. There are numerous roots of the rock tree, but rock music as we know it was pretty much born around the time of the British invasion in 1963-64. It wasn’t all British invasion, but that’s a good milestone. It was a nuclear fission reaction created by the British invasion neutrons hitting the fuel pile of the American pop music landscape.
P.S. American founders: Dylan, the Beach Boys, Hendrix, maybe a few others.
/end blowhard mode
Montysano
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine:
What’s the admission ticket? What do you have to do to get in? If it’s to sell millions of pieces of physical media, and pack stadiums, then pretty much no one. The game is totally different now. The pantheon model may be dead. I think the internet has made music more democratic, more easy to be heard.
Don’t get me wrong: I’ve been a serious music fan since the mid ’60s, and I hear new music that I like as much as anything I’ve ever heard, but none of it is “pantheon” material, I think. Calexico, Fleet Foxes, Gillian Welch, John Mayer….. great stuff, but in no way comparable to U2 or Springsteen.
My son is 21. He and his friends have no interest in going to a stadium to watch U2 on a giant teevee. Their thing is to go to festivals and be surprised.
JK
@gbear:
Golden Oldies and Classic Rock are 2 of the most elastic terms I know of to describe a musical artist.
@Warren Terra: Glenn Beck is among the most virulent and malignant cancers in the current media scrum. In an ideal world, Beck would be a patient at a mental hospital.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@JK: I don’t like the Yankees, but Jeter is pretty awesome. He also dated both Jessica Biel and Jessica Alba. Not too shabby…
mai naem
@JK:
I reject the question. Its music fer crying out loud and a lot of this is different strokes for different folks. A lot of this has to do with who was popular when you were in the 14-24 age range. Also too, I think the Police’s music has aged really badly and I think Dire Straits are way underrated.
Brick Oven Bill
The song is about getting laid in a haunted house by a crazy woman Warren Terra. Boo.
In any case, another night of practice pizza. I am getting better.
JK
@Steeplejack:
I like the terms Original rock and founders rock. I once read someone write that the birth of Beatlemania marked the end of rock and roll music and the birth of rock music.
jwb
@Montysano: I like your son’s model.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@Montysano: I am 37 and tend to agree with you, but also recognize that there are millions of people who like Coldplay and Radiohead who think the Beatles are something their parents listened too.
I also like festivals and like being surprised. We still do SXSW every year. much harder with little kids now…
JK
@mai naem:
Yes, it’s music. I just find it interesting that there are no instantly available labels that can easily be applied to the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, the Who, and Led Zeppelin whereas so many of their contemporaries and successors can more or less be accurately labeled psycheldelic rock, art rock, prog rock, glam rock, and punk rock. I think the Police deserve their reputation and I’ve always considered Dire Straits highly overrated.
Libertini
@jwb:
If you asked somebody in the industry, they’d probably say that broadly speaking rock is aimed at adolescent boys, whereas pop is aimed at adolescent girls. Since most popular music critics are male, and everyone retains strong feelings (whether good or bad) for the music they identified with as a teenager, you can see how the a value system that denigrates the term “pop” music fell into place.
Interesting perspective. I think I’m on board with that.
And I know I’m a cheater on the quote…sorry…well, not really.
gbear
It may have marked the birth of rock, but rock and roll music didn’t die, it just got put on the uncool kids list for a while.
I think rock and roll stuck with booze and amphetamines, while rock went with pot and hallucinogens.
DaBomb
@MikeJ: I will probably get booed of the site, but I so thought Nirvana was overrated. Lyrically, their songs were crap. Territorial Pissings?
Yeesh… I prefer Mudhoney from that era of music.
JK
@gbear:
Very cool. I like the way you connected different drugs to rock and roll music vs rock music.
gbear
Why isn’t it comparable? When a tiny band like Blitzen Trapper’s new album is actually better that Bruce Springsteen’s new overblown mess, isn’t the whole notion of putting anyone at all into a Pantheon kind of pointless. If you’re going to consider career length and quality (and even quantity) of output, Richard Thompson should definitely be in the Pantheon, but he can hardly keep a record company interested in him, and no one outside of music freaks knows who he is.
I guess I equate ‘Pantheon’ with ‘popular’, and view it as a shallow concept. You’re going to find a lot of people who have The Monkees in their list of Pantheon bands.
JGabriel
@JK:
A bit late to the party, but:
The Beatles, The Rolling Stones = Classic Rock
The Who = Classic Rock or Art Rock
Led Zeppelion = Overrated or Prog Rock
.
gbear
@gbear: Argh. My last comment was a response to Montysano@60. Attention to detail ‘R’ not us.
arguingwithsignposts
I’m surprised nobody mentioned the Pixies or the Talking Heads in the pantheon discussion (80s era). As for the 90s, they seemed mostly a forgettable time of faux Nirvanas. Soundgarden, anyone? Also, Nine Inch Nails. At least those. Also, while she don’t sell that many records overall, I’d think Ani DiFranco belongs somewhere in the discussion.
gbear
@JK:
Yea, but The Who blows my whole argument right out of the water. I considered them rock rather than rock and roll, but they were also the acme of booze and pill popping bands. Oh well.
arguingwithsignposts
@gbear:
That’s a fair point. I was taking Pantheon to mean influential or game-changing. Maybe “seminal” would be a better word.
And I think Gillian Welch can hold her own against the Boss, at least, but she’s not rock.
Also, where do you put Elvis Costello? Certainly in some pantheon.
JK
@JGabriel:
Thanks. It’s very interesting to read your take on this question in light of your illuminating and well delineated distinctions between art rock, prog rock, and glam rock.
There’ve been several interesting labels mentioned, but I if I HAD to choose one label for the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Who, and Led Zeppelin it would be Classic Rock. The Beatles, the Rolling Stones, the Who, and Led Zeppelin easily transcend art, prog, and psychedelic labels. Although in the case of Zep one might be able to stretch a bit and label them heavy metal, although I think they had far more talent than the numerous heavy metal knock off bands they inspired.
gbear
That’s a fair definition. I guess I get bugged when a band or musician who hasn’t done anything game-changing or adventurous in years keeps getting TONS of attention because they’re ‘in the pantheon’ while so many great but unfamous acts can’t get a break.
JK
Off the top of my head, my post 1960’s pantheon would include the Clash, the Ramones, the Sex Pistols, the Police, REM, the Pretenders, the Jam, Oasis, Public Image Limited, the Style Council, Steely Dan, Little Feat, the Damned, Phish, Sonic Youth, the Replacements, the Smiths, Cocteau Twins, Pet Shop Boys, the Call, the Cure, Elvis Costello, Joe Jackson, the New York Dolls, Television, and Talking Heads.
Montysano
@gbear:
Yeah, I think I was saying the same thing, but not saying it very well.
Does pantheon status have anything to do with accessibility? Back in the day, the Who put out an album, we bought it, then…. we waited. There were no videos and few interviews. Did this make them seem bigger than they deserved? If there’s one thing Dylan has done brilliantly over the years, it’s to remain mysterious. Nowadays, bands put themselves out there in any way they can. I’m saying that’s bad, it’s just how it’s done. But maybe some of the mystery is lost.
Blitzen Trapper’s song “Fur” is one of the best songs I’ve heard lately. Also.
Montysano
@Montysano:
Edit: “I’m not saying that’s bad, it’s just how it’s done. But maybe some of the mystery is lost.”
Oh for an Edit feature.
JGabriel
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine:
Pavement
Sleater-Kinney
Yo La Tengo
PJ Harvey
Wilco
Neko Case & Her Boyfriends
Outkast
Jenny Lewis/Rilo Kiley
Fountains of Wayne
Beck
Lucinda Williams
Public Enemy (for their 80’s work)
Radiohead
Arcade Fire
De La Soul
The White Stripes
TV on the Radio
Sonic Youth
Tom Waits
Belle & Sebastian
The Hold Steady
The New Pornographers / AC Newman
Kanye West
LCD Soundsystem
Modest Mouse
Bjork
Rufus Wainwright
Jay-Z
Eminemn
Liz Phair
The Flaming Lips
The Streets
Manu Chao
Alejandro Escovedo
Sigur Ros
Ryan Adams
Aimee Mann
Steve Earle
Richard Thompson
Dr. Dre
Bob Dylan
Air (French Band)
Tricky
Massive Attack
Neutral Milk Hotel
Pulp
Portishead
Beth Orton
Gillian Welch
Stereolab
Blur
The Roots
Elastica
Matthew Sweet
Mission of Burma
Lou Reed
Guided by Voices
Stephen Merritt aka The Magnetic Fields/ The Sixths / etc.
Green Day
Bob Mould / Sugar
Paul Westerberg
Amy Rigby
Johnny Cash
Jane Siberry
Tori Amos
REM
The Mekons
The Pixies
.
JGabriel
Gordon, The Big Express Engine:
In no particular order, line and paragraph breaks for ease of reading only:
Pavement, Sleater-Kinney, Yo La Tengo, PJ Harvey,
Wilco, Neko Case & Her Boyfriends, Outkast,
Jenny Lewis/Rilo Kiley, Fountains of Wayne, Beck,
Lucinda Williams, Public Enemy (for their 80’s work),
Radiohead, Arcade Fire, De La Soul, The White Stripes,
TV on the Radio, Sonic Youth, Tom Waits, Belle & Sebastian
The Hold Steady, The New Pornographers / AC Newman,
Kanye West, LCD Soundsystem, Modest Mouse, Bjork,
Rufus Wainwright, Jay-Z, Eminem, Liz Phair,
The Flaming Lips, The Streets, Manu Chao, Cat Power,
Alejandro Escovedo, Sigur Ros, Ryan Adams, Aimee Mann,
Steve Earle, Richard Thompson, Dr. Dre, Bob Dylan,
Air (French Band), Tricky, Massive Attack, Neutral Milk Hotel,
Pulp, Portishead, Beth Orton, Gillian Welch, Stereolab,
Blur, The Roots, Elastica, Matthew Sweet, Mission of Burma, Lou Reed, Guided by Voices, Green Day, Bob Mould / Sugar,
Stephen Merritt aka The Magnetic Fields/ The Sixths / etc.,
Paul Westerberg, Amy Rigby, Johnny Cash, Jane Siberry,
Tori Amos, REM, The Mekons, The Pixies, Gorillaz,
Joanna Newsom, Danger Mouse / Gnarls Barkley,
Beastie Boys, The Strokes …
That’ll do for the time being.
.
JGabriel
P.S. Didn’t include anything from before the 90’s, except Public Enemy.
If I had, the list would be much, much longer, as that’s one of the periods I know best – college radio DJ, 1983-1986.
.
JK
@JGabriel:
Great list. When are you going to create your own Internet radio station?
Steeplejack
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine:
I think the contrast was made to the Rolling Stones that concertgoers to their shows suffer the new stuff and go crazy for the classics.
The Stones are poster boys for the phrase “Dead at 30, buried at 80 [or whenever].”
JK
@JGabriel:
Wait, what about Bob Dylan, Lou Reed, and Johnny Cash all pre-1990?
arguingwithsignposts
@JGabriel:
Well, I’d say the Pixies straddled the 80s-90s divide. Doolittle, their most well-known album, was in the 80s. REM, also.
JGabriel
@JK:
They all released great albums post-1990. Notice Bob Mould / Sugar are on the list, but not Husker Du.
.
arguingwithsignposts
@JGabriel:
Flaming Lips, also from the 80s. I recall owning a clear vinyl version of one of their early albums.
Lou Reed is from the 60s-70s. I can’t recall anything significant he’s done since then.
JGabriel
arguingwithsignposts:
I used the criteria of whether they released good albums in the 90s or 00s. Not when they started.
.
arguingwithsignposts
@JGabriel:
Okay, this is getting confusing. I thought we were talking artists who were 90s or later, not artists who came to prominence prior to 1990 who happened to do some nice work post-1990.
Johnny Cash is a good example. The American recordings are great, but his legend was secure, his place in the pantheon secure, long before Rick Rubin called him up. Ditto Lou Reed and Bob Dylan.
JGabriel
@arguingwithsignposts:
1990. Songs For Drella (with John Cale)
1992. Magic and Loss
2000. Ecstasy
Those are the best albums post 1990. In the 80’s, you also have:
1982. The Blue Mask (possibly his best solo effort)
1984. New Sensations
1989. New York
Again, there were other albums in the 80’s, those are just the best, IMO.
.
Steeplejack
@JK:
I once read someone write that the birth of Beatlemania marked the end of rock and roll music and the birth of rock music.
I can live with that. Even at the time, there was a feeling (largely unarticulated) that there was a breaking with the past. Elvis, the Four Seasons–to take just two examples–were great, but they were clearly coming out of, and maintaining continuity with, the old tradition. When you first heard the Beatles, though, it was like: WTF?! And that was before WTF was invented.
I think the Beatles are vastly underrated now because their music and their influence are so ubiquitous and so ingrained that they are taken for granted and virtually invisible. I’m looking forward to the spike of interest surrounding the release of their remastered catalogue on September 9. I will be buying Rubber Soul first as my test case. Not saying it’s their best album, although it’s damn good, and a favorite of mine, but I think it’s the one that will best tell me what to expect from the remastering.
JK
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine: @JGabriel: Thanks for the clarification. I thought Gordon meant musical artists who RELEASED THEIR FIRST RECORDINGS AFTER 1990.
Following up on my post 1960’s pantheon, I’d add Roxy Music, Patti Smith, Rickie Lee Jones, Tom Petty, and Bruce Springsteen
Robertdsc-iphone
Metallica from Ride The Lightning on up does it for me in almost every instance. I can’t get into any of the bands mentioned so far and even the music I grew up with in the late 80s-early 90s doesn’t sit well with me for any long stretch of time.
I do have a bunch of individual tracks from movie scores that I play every so often, but that’s pretty much it. 50s oldies & 40s big band stuff is OK in small doses. In a pinch, Miles Davis’s Bitches Brew works, also.
JGabriel
arguingwithsignposts:
I’m so sorry I chose the wrong interpretation of a poorly differentiated criteria?
Seriously, Yo La Tengo’s first album was in 1986, but they didn’t come into prominence, such as it was, until Painful in 1993. Once I made the decision that they had to be included among the great bands of the 90’s, anyone else who did great work in that period, whether or not they had an earlier discography, became eligible.
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arguingwithsignposts
@JK: @JGabriel:
Well, if we’re just talking about artists who released good-to-great albums in the 1990s and 2000s, then the whole pantheon thing is really a useless distinction. From the original comment, I got the distinct impression that it was artists who were formed or released first albums post-1990.
After all, the solicitation was for bands, not albums. If it’s albums, then you start getting into questions of whether the band’s output post-1990 is greater than their output pre-1990. Is Springsteen’s post-1990 output better than pre-1990? I don’t think so.
gbear
@Montysano:
I think part of what made bands so cool back then was that nobody could even imagine themselves as making a career in rock music. The bands that were making it really were pushing into territory and a lifestyle that had never been explored, living like gypsies while blazing trails in which other bands and musicians could comfortably follow….so The Beatles wind up blazing a trail for Herman’s Hermits. Sigh.
Maybe the mystery that you mentioned disappeared once the business world caught on to the realization that there was a lot of money to be made in the ‘youth music market’?
JK
@Steeplejack:
I think a lot of thirtysomethings have a kneejerk reaction to dislike the Beatles and the Rolling Stones because they feel they’ve been oversaturated with their music. Granted they’ve received enormous airplay over the decades, but I think it’s totally justified. For my money, they remain the 2 greatest rock bands of all-time. I’ve yet to hear any other bands or solo artists who recorded songs encompassing so many different styles as the Beatles and the Rolling Stones.
Francis
I’ve just figured it out;
JGabriel is the program manager for KCRW.
Who are you really: Jason Bentley, Chris Douridas, Nic Harcourt?
arguingwithsignposts
@JGabriel:
That’s a fair point re: Yo La Tengo. I would think you could make that distinction about “prominence” of an artist post-1990. The Pixies probably most closely hug that divide, having released Doolittle in 1989.
But several of the others listed were already major artists before 1990, so I wouldn’t put them in that post-1990 pantheon. That’s just my take on it. YMMV.
And, btw, I agree with every band on your entire list being the rock pantheon in some way or other.
General Winfield Stuck
I want to say that Max is a cutie. That is all.
gbear
@gbear:
I could repeat the above comment for bands like The Minutemen and Husker Du who were living out of vans during the heyday of the DIY punk movement. They created a market for ‘punk music’ and the music business did all they could to exploit it. Thus Nirvana paves the way for The Foo Fighters. It never changes.
Anne Laurie
Sounds like the “good” news is that Lily’s secure enough in her status as your First Assistant to snipe, literally, at any female that she perceives as challenging her new rank. (Sammy, obviously, is so not-dominant that Lily can’t imagine her as a threat. Considering how nervous & threatened Lily looked in your first pics of her & Sammy together, good work on your part!) Time for you & Lily to sign up for the next round of obedience classes at the site you picked out before bringing her home!
JK
@arguingwithsignposts: I don’t know if Gordon is still logged in, but I get the impression he was referring to artists who began releasing recordings in the 1990’s. I thought his point was that it’s easy to reach consensus on who belongs in a pantheon if you limit yourself to bands who released records in the 1960’s and the 1970’s-1980s – ie Beatles, Rolling Stones, Who, Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead, Clash, Ramones, Sex Pistols, U2, REM etc but that for bands who formed in 1990 or later, it’s harder to instantly name drop bands who belong in a pantheon.
Steeplejack
Whew. Have finished reading this thread–and the other Balloon Juice threads–and am somewhat relieved to see that I didn’t get a firestorm of criticism/opprobrium for my off-the-cuff comments. Not sure whether that means my comments were okay or just that no one was reading them because of my well-known night-owl/thread-killer syndrome.
Things that come to mind after reading the discussion above about people’s musical tastes, at least regarding pop/rock/popular/whatever music:
1. The whole genre is really about songs, not artists or even “albums.” The singular glory of rock music that is that a semi-talented (or no-talent) bunch of nitwits can be struck by lightning and come up with three minutes of great fooking music. The giants of the genre are somehow able to open themselves up and channel it repeatedly and consistently, against all the odds.
2. Face it, it’s inevitable that you get bonded to the music you listen to (or are exposed to continually) between the ages of 12 and somewhere in your early 20s. Hard to shake off that influence.
JK
@gbear: I don’t think greater exposure of the artists is really an issue. Using the Who as an example, Tommy, Who’s Next, and Quadrophenia are flat out masterpieces that remain as fresh, vital, and satisfying as they were when they were first relaesed.
Steeplejack
@JK:
No disagreement here. I’m a bit of a late-period Stones hater, because I think they have been phoning it in for quite a while, but their early stuff is amazing. Everybody remembers the straight-ahead rock stuff, but they could be . . . gosh darn it, sensitive.
“Sittin’ on a Fence,” from Flowers, is one of my favorites. Can’t find a video of it, so I’ll settle for this version of my all-time favorite Stones song. God, I miss Brian Jones. Surprises me every time I realize it.
arguingwithsignposts
@gbear:
Minutemen! History Lesson Part II!
Husker Du! Mary Tyler Moore Theme Song!
I remember reading an interview with Dave Grohl somewhere where he mentioned listening to the early hardcore bands and the Minneapolis sound (HD and the Replacements). The first time I heard Nirvana’s Nevermind, I knew they were standing on the backs of giants.
Brachiator
@jwb:
The Beatles were rock when they began, playing hard and long first in Liverpool and then Germany. They became pop as they became more popular, and suitable for American audiences.
They never silenced the screams of their female fans. They retreated into the studio.
JK – We had an interesting discussion earlier about the distinctions between art rock, prog rock, and glam rock. If you were explaining the history of rock music to an anal retentive novice who insisted on a label or tag being applied to the following: The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Who, Led Zeppelin, what tags would you assign to these bands?
There would be no point to trying to explain anything to an anal retentive novice, no matter how much they insist that lists and labels would make it all nice, neat, clear and defined. You could apply all the tags to the Beatles, the Stones, the Who, and maybe all but glam to Led Zeppelin, and it still wouldn’t tell you very much.
Yeah, I think you pretty much nailed it here.
I agree with you about the Police. Not sure about Dire Straits. Steely Dan is another group who has not held up for me, despite glowing reviews of their recent Southern California appearance:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/music_blog/2009/08/live-review-steely-dan-at-the-gibson-amphitheatre.html
I like some of what I’ve seen from Green Day and the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Whether it will stand up for the long haul, I don’t know.
JK
@Steeplejack: My favorite underrated, overlooked Rolling Stones songs
Jigsaw Puzzle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE5x5dDDWzc
Salt of the Earth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGO-YrfLsPQ
All Down the Line http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-trGCKataU&feature=PlayList&p=F79FC3491BB8766B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=29
Rocks Off http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqk1kdjk5o0&feature=related
JK
@Brachiator:
If I were creating a database of all –time great bands and the software I was using wouldn’t enter an item into the database if the musical genre field were left blank, I’d enter “classic rock” for the Beatles, Rolling Stones, the Who, and Led Zeppelin. To me it’s the only label that really fits all of them.
If the Beatles were able to perform Tomorrow Never Knows, I Am the Walrus, Strawberry Fields, and A Day in the Life in concert, I don’t think they would have elicited the screaming that their early songs received
This live version of Reelin’ In The Years http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsrI_mIT6PQ totally kicks ass in my opinion.
Steeplejack
@JK:
Tasty links all. Thank you.
Steeplejack
@JK:
The last Stones song that I can recall thinking unequivocally, “This is fooking great”: “Waiting on a Friend.” (Stupid video.)
Brachiator
@JK:
Sigh. The reductionism required for a database has little to do with an assessment of a band or their place in time. Most of the people in my office are under 30. They know the Beatles and the Stones, but consider them to be more “antique” than “classic.”
Buddy Holly, Elvis, the Yardbirds, the Kinks, Bob Dylan, where do they fit? And of course, this typically narrow discussion of “rock” excludes tons of American popular music of the 60s on. And when I am in a particularly bad mood, I suggest that the only important American music is jazz.
Van Morrison, also, too. or Elton John. Or even Kate Bush.
Tagging the Beatles as “British Music Hall” would be just as accurate, or just as inaccurate, as tagging them as “Classic.” It depends on your frame of reference and what you know about their musical influences.
If the Beatles are classic, what are Steppenwolf or Question Mark and the Mysterians … proto-classic?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHHdBJb4BRM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkvK638yKuY
Interesting hypothetical, but it’s just that, hypothetical. Girls screamed for young Sinatra. Both they and he grew up. The reaction to his music says a lot less than you think it does.
By the way, I love the Stones’ Salt of the Earth and All Down the Line, and don’t consider them to be particularly underrated. But when my mojo needs re-working, I need some Monkey Man (live version, after Ronnie Woods had joined the band)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxZMFSNOMwI
JK
@Brachiator:
“The reductionism required for a database has little to do with an assessment of a band or their place in time” I completely agree with you on this point. I was merely playing a thought experiment and was curious to see how people would respond to this question.
I guess one of the interesting things about rock music is how on the one hand certain artists fit easily into genres while other artists just as easily defy being categorized. Many of the artists you cite: Buddy Holly, Elvis, the Yardbirds, the Kinks, Bob Dylan, Van Morrison, Elton John, Kate Bush, Steppenwolf, and Question Mark and the Mysterians defy categorization. I’d label Elton John, Steppenwolf, and Question Mark and the Mysterians overrated.
I love jazz too, especially Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Thelonius Monk, and Charles Mingus.
I regard Salt of the Earth and All Down the Line underrated in terms of the scant airplay they’ve received over the years compared to the countless times I’ve heard Beast of Burden, Miss You, Waiting On a Friend, and Start Me Up on the radio. Thanks for the Monkey Man link.
Stella Gorlin
Small word of advice re: Lily. Make sure that you nip any aggressive behaviors in the bud now before they become too ingrained. My husband and I adopted rescue puppy who was fine with people at first but over the course of the first year we had her she developed a fear of strangers that manifested in aggressive behaviors. We didn’t really see it happening and it’s been very challenging to overcome.
CynDee
Maybe that awful cat woman, where Lily was found, used to get right into Lily’s face some way. Too threatening.
CynDee
We had a sweet little Jack Russell / Beagle mix who was a fabulous and very mentally healthy dog. We acquired him when he voted with his feet and left his home a few blocks away and wanted to move in with us. His master, a former game warden, had died, and his lady found Doggy to be too much of a handful and basically stopped taking care of him. She came over to our house to retrieve him so many times and looked so tired and sad that we said if she ever decided to make a change for the dog, we’d be interested in having him.
It wasn’t long before she agreed, and we had him for ten wonderful years; he was really happy and not aggressive, only rarely a little defensive if he was sick.
One night, the last year we had him, I was talking to him about his funny little gait. I was standing fairly close to him and said fondly, “Oh, Doggy, you look so funny walking like that, just like a little piiggg.”
That dog went ballistic and into such a state of fear as we had never seen him. He was so horribly startled that he shrank away and retreated, and started breathing hard, and was obviously in massive terror. It was so awful to have said something that did that to him after all the years of seeing him be so happy and carefree.
All we can think of is that we had once heard his master used to take him along out into the Florida woods, and maybe there was one or more instance of episodes with wild pigs.
You never really know what an animal has been through.
HyperIon
@MBSS: and another commenter recommended day for night.
hey, that was me. i’m glad you liked it.
the cast is excellent.
plus Jacqueline Bisset looked great.
i, too, like movies about making movies.
and truffaut playing himself was cool.
but check out “the 400 blows”.
it is special in a different sense.
a very young Jean-Pierre Léaud (Alphonse in Day for Night) plays the leading role, a kid trying to find his way.
HyperIon
i too have known someone who got bit when she leaned down to greet a dog. unhappily this dog had bitten before and would bite again. dog bites are nasty….
and a history of biting (> 2 incidents in the two cases i know of) can be used to cancel a homeowner’s policy. unintended consequences of reporting the cause of the injury to the folks in the emergency room.