Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Ah, the different things are different argument.

People are weird.

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

GOP baffled that ‘we don’t care if you die’ is not a winning slogan.

Jesus, Mary, & Joseph how is that election even close?

“Why isn’t this Snickers bar only a nickel?”

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

This country desperately needs a functioning Fourth Estate.

Motto for the House: Flip 5 and lose none.

Nothing says ‘pro-life’ like letting children go hungry.

This really is a full service blog.

So it was an October Surprise A Day, like an Advent calendar but for crime.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

Democrats have delivered the Square Deal, the New Deal, the Fair Deal, and now… the Big Joe Biden Deal.

Let’s finish the job.

Stop using mental illness to avoid talking about armed white supremacy.

They were going to turn on one another at some point. It was inevitable.

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

When the time comes to make an endorsement, the pain of NYT editors will be palpable as they reluctantly whisper “Biden.”

If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.

Stamping your little feets and demanding that they see how important you are? Not working anymore.

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Random question

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You seem like a pretty literary group to me, so maybe you can help me with this question. I have a friend who is a first-time author. He just got an offer from a publisher for his book, which is seen as a regional book but probably has some national potential (in my opinion and his). The plan is for an initial print run of 10,000 copies.

What would be a reasonable advance and royalties? I’ve seen enough episodes of “Behind the Music” to know you have to careful with contracts?

Thanks!

Update. The book is nonfiction. And my friend’s fear is that getting an agent will somehow scare the publisher off. Any possibility of that?

Reader Interactions

116Comments

  2. 2.

    Betseed

    Your friend should have agent if he doesn’t already, but I have a friend whose first novel got a $15,000 advance and $2 per hardcover in royalties.

  6. 6.

    Guster

    Oop, hit enter too soon. My last deal:

    Advance: $30,000 for two books.
    Territory: North America (we fought hard; they wanted world.)
    HC royalties: 10% to 25,000, 12.5% thereafter
    PB royalties: 6% to 50,000, 7.5% thereafter.
    Ebook: 20% on net.
    50/50 split for sublicenses.
    Retain rights to audio, TV, movie, etc.

    That’s not a good deal, but it’s not an embarrassing one.

  7. 7.

    Guster

    Well, shit, there’s _finally_ a thread where I know what I’m talking about. I’ve waited years for this; since my first post during the Wingnut Years, when there was a kerfuffle between John and … who? Jane at FDL? I can’t believe I finally have something to contribute. I’m all giddy.

  9. 9.

    Tim I

    Your friend needs an agent and a lawyer! I once read an interview with avid Morrell where he stated that he was about to sign a deal for his novel ‘First Blood’, when he decided to consult an attorney on the advice of a frend. His attorney negotiated that he retain movie rights. The Sylvester Stalone trilogy has netted Morrell literarlly millions of dollars since.

  13. 13.

    Guster

    @AW: That one’s fiction. My nonfiction I’d have to dig pretty deep into my file cabinet to find the numbers. They weren’t multi-book, though, and the largest advance was $12,500. The royalties looked pretty much the same, if memory serves, but none of them earned out.

  16. 16.

    J.D. Rhoades

    He definitely needs an agent. I’m a published author with four books under my belt, and I’m a lawyer as well, and damned if I’d try to negotiate a book contract on my own. Publishing’s an arcane world with a lot of practices that make no sense to even the educated layperson.

  17. 17.

    Lizzy L

    I’ve had 9 books published, and I strongly agree with the advice upthread: your friend should get himself a good, trustworthy, hungry agent and turn the negotiations over to her or him.

    The folks at Making Light might have some recommendations.

    Good luck to him.

  18. 18.

    Quaker in a Basement

    $60,000! $9.2 million! A cup of coffee and a day-old bagel!

    Random question. Random answers.

  19. 19.

    Kirk Spencer

    @Jay B.: It happens, sometimes, some cases.

    Slush piles are classic and still exist for some publishers. Right place, right time with the right item to hand happens. (That’s how my mother sold her first.) Friend of a Friend works in a handful of cases. (I’ve an acquaintance who got her first published book because a fairly successful author, a friend, thought well enough of both neophyte and book that he moved it past several barriers when having lunch with his publisher.)

    And these days, there’s using the web either as teaser or first book free advertising – both have worked by letting the right publisher find the author for a few people.

  20. 20.

    tripletee

    I’m not an agent, a lawyer, or an author, but I’d advise him to watch out for clauses in the contract that, say, require him to bathe in goat’s blood and pledge his eternal soul to an ancient deity. Those publishing houses are tricky.

  21. 21.

    jibeaux

    @Guster:

    Wait a minute, you’ve been waiting to talk until you knew what you were talking about?!? Do you even read this blog?

  22. 22.

    Jay B.

    Unless its a very small press, in which case, 10,000 seems high. And if a run of 10,000 is right, then it almost HAS to be national (assuming the publisher has a distributor, if not, a few hundred sales would be problematic) and would need national, targeted advertising.

  24. 24.

    Linkmeister

    @cleek: Beat me to it. It’s not just Patrick and Teresa; Jim Macdonald and Debra Doyle are both published authors, and sometimes it seems like the known universe of SF/F authors hang out in the open threads.

    I imagine the forums at Absolute Write might have some useful information as well.

  25. 25.

    Jay B.

    @Kirk Spencer:

    Sure. I ran an indie publishing company and we couldn’t afford writers with agents. We had trade runs from 1000 to about 3000 (which was way too high). But still, 10,000 hardcover guarantees seems huge. Most name authors can’t sell that in hardcover these days (fiction at least).

  28. 28.

    Moe Gamble

    I was a publisher for 25 years, sold the business, and over the last nine years have published seven books of my own with two publishers.

    A typical advance for a first-time author, where the publisher is planning an initial print run of 10k, would be something like $3k-$5k. Your friend could expect a bigger advance on subsequent books, based on the actual sales of the first book. Advances are typically equal to something like expected first-year sales. Expected first-year sales for established authors are typically based on the actual first-year sales of the author’s last book in that subject area with that publisher.

    You’d probably be looking at 6% royalties (paperback). That’s 6% of the cover price, no matter what the publisher is actually getting per copy sold. Small specialty publishers frequently can’t pay any advance at all, but will often pay higher royalties. For example, I’ve gotten 18% to 25% of the publisher’s actual selling price (not cover price) in deals with small publishers, which is an excellent deal if the author expects to be selling many of the books him/herself, or if the publisher has good direct marketing potential (selling through his own mailing list or web site), rather than selling every book through places like Border’s and Amazon.

    I had an agent, but I publish in a particular field where I’m already well known, and I know publishing contracts well from my years as a publisher, so I found him pretty useless and I no longer use an agent. Also, when I was a small publisher (I published about a dozen titles a year) I never made any deal with an author through an agent that the author wouldn’t have gotten on his own.

    I’d use an agent if I had trouble reading contract language or had no familiarity with the various rights specified in the contract, or if the book had a shot at getting made into a film.

    Writing books is usually a sucky way to make money. Assuming your friend intends to write books for a living, he/she should probably be thinking of the books he/she publishes as advertisements for another way of generating income. Your friend should get a web site or blog up right away and get that url into the book and make some money from advertising, or giving lectures or demonstrations or tours related to the subject of the book.

  30. 30.

    Guster

    @jibeaux: Oh, I chime in every now and then, I’ve just never had the remotest clue what I was chiming in _about_, before. It’s a strange feeling.

    And 10,000 for an initial print run is possibly a lie. Publishers do that, with print runs.

    Also, I read this, somewhere, about a novel called The Devil’s Right Hand, by someone named JD Rhoades: ““Rhoades slaps this supercharged crime-fiction debut into overdrive in the first paragraph and never lets up through nearly three hundred pages of nonstop action.” —Booklist (starred review)”

  32. 32.

    Kristine

    Which genre? Literary? Non-fiction historical? Mystery? A regional publisher or NY-based? Hardcover or mass market? An advance could range anywhere from $3K to $25K. But it’s really impossible to pinpoint without knowing details, and even then…

    So much depends on what potential the editor sees in the work. I agree with the agent/lawyer advice, but an agent may be more able to spot the marketability, what the editor sees in the work.

    My current deal was similar to Guster’s…although my publisher got world rights. The push for world rights is apparently the new black. I write thrillers, fwiw.

    Not to add pressure, but I hope your friend has at least looked into agents and has an idea who he would like to query. Not all agents rep all types of work.

    Best of luck to him. Hope the book blows the doors off the joint.

  35. 35.

    Kirk Spencer

    @Jay B.: Ah – didn’t realize you were commenting on the no-agent getting 10,000. For that, flukes happen.

    So do fish tales.

  36. 36.

    tripletee

    @Guster:

    I’ve just never had the remotest clue what I was chiming in about, before. It’s a strange feeling.

    I hope to discover what that’s like someday.

  38. 38.

    Guster

    @Kristine: Actually, Kristine, you write _John W. Campbell Award Winning_ thrillers. Let’s get our terms right, please.

    (And this is depressing. I wanted to be the publishingest author here. The other writers in this thread are sucking all the joy out of my imagined superiority.)

  41. 41.

    Desert Rat

    Get an agent.

    You wouldn’t represent yourself in a court of law.

    Why would you have somebody negotiate a book contract who never has one?

    From what I’ve heard, any publishing deal where the publisher doesn’t want to deal with an agent, is a publishing deal to walk away from.

  42. 42.

    Kristine

    @Guster Re: the Campbell–bless you for digging that out.

    It’s so cool that there are so many other writers here.

    Doug, no reputable publisher is going to be scared off by an agent.

  43. 43.

    jurassicpork

    There’s no telling how much of an advance he will get or is entitled to get? Is he represented by an agent? It’s the agent’s job to fight for the biggest advance possible for a client. It also depends on the type of book he’s publishing. A print run of 10,000 isn’t bad for a firsttime author but it won’t necessarily equate to a five or six figure advance.

    Bottom line, if he hasn’t got an agent (and I don’t see how he could’ve possibly even gotten his ms read without one since publishers use them as part of the weeding process), then advise him to get one PRONTO.

    Btw, sorry it’s been over seven months since my last Assclowns of the Week. Well, the wait is over. #76 is up and still steaming hot.

  44. 44.

    Sharon

    I have written (and published) about thirty books.
    No reputable publisher will be scared off by and agent. Get an agent with some successful experience in the genre.

    A good agent means a lawyer is superfluous anjd an unnecessary expense.

    The amount of advance also depends on the area. An agent will know. I’ve gotten $3K to $25K but I write in a narrow field.

    Royalties are also all over the map. I usually get 15% of net sales. Fiction is usually a percentage of gross sales.

    I wouldn’t have any trouble negotiating without and agent but I’ve been writing a long time. A new author NEEDS an agent.

  47. 47.

    SGEW

    Yikes, there really are a lot of published B-J readers.

    Makes the rest of us feel like major underachievers. ;|

  48. 48.

    Guster

    Okay, Doug, I, rummaged in my file cabinet for the nonfiction contract from ’98.

    $12,000: six on signing, six on acceptance.
    North American rights.
    HB royalties: 10% to the first 5,000, 12.5% to the next five thousand, and 15% thereafter.
    PB royalties: 7.5% to 10,000, 10% thereafter.

    Was never released in HB. But my wife reminds me that my first nonfiction book sold for $3,500. And many, many books sell in that ballpark.

    I suppose there’s a chance that an agent would scare off the publisher, but that’s a huge warning sign. I guess the question is: does your friend want to continue to write and publish? Or is this just a single project that he desperately wants to see the light of day? If the former, he’s in a great place to get an agent and to work toward building a career. If the latter, there’s no real reason to get too uptight about this stuff.

  49. 49.

    Linkmeister

    You know, we’re all assuming the publisher who’s made this offer to DougJ’s friend is one whose name we’d recognize as legitimate.

    I sure hope that’s the case.

    (Puts Eeyore ears away.)

  50. 50.

    Guster

    @J.D. Rhoades: Nope. I’m pretty antisocial, and have no discernible personality except in a text-based medium after three drinks. Hm. Actually, we _might_ have met, but you wouldn’t have noticed.

    And don’t worry, Kirk. Before this thread tapers off, you’ll get a phone call with a six-figure offer, just to spite me.

  51. 51.

    DougJ

    guess the question is: does your friend want to continue to write and publish? Or is this just a single project that he desperately wants to see the light of day?

    I think he’s not sure yet.

  52. 52.

    DougJ

    You know, we’re all assuming the publisher who’s made this offer to DougJ’s friend is one whose name we’d recognize as legitimate.

    He says it is.

  53. 53.

    Keith G

    Gee, since we seem to have a few regs who write books and since some of us read books…..How about a thread where these good folks can guide us to their books.

  54. 54.

    Kirk Spencer

    @Guster: uh… not likely. It’s non-fiction in with what I think is a fairly small audience. Not unless info literacy/info management catches somebody’s eye, anyway. (And definitely not before I get it finished.)

    But thanks for the dream (grin).

  55. 55.

    FearItself

    If the publisher is reluctant to deal with your friend through an agent, that means they’re trying to screw your friend, and he wants nothing to do with them.

  60. 60.

    BeccaM

    It’s not at all unusual for an author to land his/her own first book offer. Once that offer is made though, it’s time to do the networking thing quickly — find another author in roughly the same genre who likes his or her agent and would recommend them for representation. If you have an offer in hand, it’s not that hard to get an agent to sign on — after all it’s practically free money for them, plus they can probably get a better deal anyway. Plus, once you have an established relationship with this agency, you can do even better down the road.

    No reputable publishing house would be scared off by what is simply good business practices on the part of the author.

  61. 61.

    Sir Nose'D

    I should have gotten an agent. Then again, I shouldn’t have published an academic book with an initial print run of 1K.

  62. 62.

    tripletee

    @Keith G:

    Gee, since we seem to have a few regs who write books and since some of us read books…..How about a thread where these good folks can guide us to their books.

    Was just going to suggest that. I wandered over to Amazon and found JD and Kristine. I’m getting a Kindle tomorrow and I need something to start with, so I’m going to give both a try. (The “customers who bought this book also bought” recommendations for Kristine’s books included several of Karen Traviss’ Wess’har series, which I really liked, so I think I’ll be in good hands.)

    Also, I noticed Amazon is making a big deal of their super-triple-secret maximum security facility for their prerelease copies of Dan Brown’s latest steaming pile. Bleh.

  64. 64.

    Kristine

    @tripletee While a sale would be most appreciated, I have first chapters of all the books in my SF series posted on my website, along with a novella that’s sort of a prequel to the first book. So if you want to have a look before you buy…

  65. 65.

    tripletee

    @Kristine:

    Thanks – I’ll check out the novella, and I already had a sample of Code of Conduct sent to the Kindle. Looks like it will be right up my alley.

  66. 66.

    PhoenixRising

    It’s so easy to get an agent, he’d be crazy not to. (I was reluctant, knowing that expertise costs money, but luckily my wife is smarter than I. She pointed out that never knowing what I might have made with a professional repping my work would drive me nuts, in exchange for an additional percentage of The Best I Could Do.)

    To find an agent, have him go back to the proposal he wrote at the start of his nonfiction niche project, look at the books listed as proofs of concept there, and call the agents who got them published.

    The contract I eventually got with help, for a niche nonfiction expected to sell about 3000 HB and 10,000 PB, advanced me $7500.

    My wife was still smarter than I was when the actual contract arrived. At that juncture, she pointed out that there were provisions in the contract I couldn’t comply with, as they required editorial control over material that isn’t mine to sell. (See the NYTimes blathering on whether it’s ethical to tell all about your kids for an idea of what I’m talking about.) So you can’t buy the book on Amazon and from what I’ve observed about this niche, none of you want it anyway.

    So that works out.

  67. 67.

    Comrade Darkness

    @tripletee: Dan Brown (as well as Nicolas Sparks) are the reason(s) I feel quite happy when I say been there done that; well past time to move on to this publishing stuff. It was a fling (small press) and I met a lot of really cool people, but, meh, in retrospect.

    I don’t do emotional rollercoasters well anyway, I’ve since decided. Although, I probably finally have the temperament now, amusingly enough. Now that I don’t care. Heh.

  69. 69.

    Subject

    Thanks for the responses, all. I’m the writer that dougj is discussing in this post. While there is some variation in advice, that’s instructive.

    Guster – I have long been a fan of their music. Are you Ryan Miller in disguise? Seriously, I deeply appreciate the specificity in your responses.

    And certainly I don’t seek to single out any poster; the responses here are already significantly helpful to me. To answer some questions: This first effort is not meant to replace an annual income. However, I have put together a concept for my next book, and I am rather confident it would be a national release. I should be careful betraying confidence in this forum, as I understand the challenge of even finding a publisher’s ear. But the bottom line is that this first book was a passion and a possible outlet to new career avenues. The second book concept blossomed recently and now I view them with very specific and different goals. The first is to establish credibility in the industry. The second would potentially begin the shift in career.

    In any negotiation, one party has more leverage. In this case, I recognize that I do not have the benefit of leverage. This particular publisher carries a list of authors that I would be thrilled to join. The initial proposal falls in the shorter end of the range mentioned above by several posters. I concede that I harbor fears of bringing an aggressive agent to the table, as I don’t want the publisher to respond by saying, “We took on a regional project and this is the thanks we get?” But I feel the wealth of experience on display here indicates I’d be foolish not to at least explore the possibility.

    Thanks again. I am in your debt, in whatever nebulous interwebs form that may take.

  71. 71.

    Subject

    cat – I currently work roughly 50 hours a week. The book has required about 18 months of research, which includes using vacation time to research 12 hours a day. This project is not meant to replace my income; I’m fortunate to have a steady job and a working wife.

  72. 72.

    slag

    @asiangrrlMN:

    Agent! And, Guster, if i had waited until I had something meaningful to contribute, I would still be waiting!

    Same here.

    And I’m curious, DougJ: Is this an academic paper your friend is turning into a book or something written for a broader audience?

  73. 73.

    tripletee

    @Comrade Darkness:

    Dan Brown (as well as Nicolas Sparks) are the reason(s) I feel quite happy when I say been there done that; well past time to move on to this publishing stuff.

    I just don’t get it. At all. I mean, I happily read all kinds of low-brow stuff, but Brown is just a terrible, terrible writer. I somehow made it all the way through Digital Fortress, but it was like having icepicks plunged into my frontal cortex the entire time.

    Then again, we’re in a country where you can publicly suggest that the President is a Kenyan national who wants to euthanize grandmothers without being institutionalized for your own safety, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised at Brown’s success.

  74. 74.

    cat

    @Kristine: There goes another dream down the tubes. I thought I was escaping *to* suburban lifestyle, instead it looks like a trap you never escape from.

  76. 76.

    Subject

    I should also mention that I am only vaguely familiar with the concept of author’s copies, name/branding rights, etc. (The concept behind this book can easily translate to other regions, and my wife points out that it would be, ahem, handy if I were in charge of the brand).

    Is there a standard number of author’s copies?

    How much should I tweak about the book title (which they’ve already proposed changing)?

  78. 78.

    Comrade Darkness

    The stuff done with passion is the stuff that sells. You think there is no way some weird little thing is going to fly and you’re doing it just because you can’t not do it, but a few people reccing their friends is all it takes. Meanwhile the stuff written right at an audience falls flat, despite all appearances of a winner. (We’re talking reeeeeally small press here, but nevertheless, my point is, passion comes through and should always be a component, and if it’s not, time to check if you’ve lost your way.)

  79. 79.

    Subject

    slag,

    The most I can say for now is that this book might be viewed as rather narrow in theme by some, but I intentionally wrote the book about the people instead of the general subject. As an example, you might not care about a book about commercial pilots. But there’s a better chance you’d read it if you found the characters compelling. That’s why there was some discussion that it could be more than a regional project.

  81. 81.

    tripletee

    @Comrade Darkness:

    Meanwhile the stuff written right at an audience falls flat, despite all appearances of a winner.

    The sales figures of those horrible corpse-humping Dune prequels say “hi.”

  82. 82.

    Kristine

    @cat Oh, I still hold out hope that I can someday earn a living by writing fiction. But the primary driver is enjoyment of the process and creating Story. Surprising myself. I don’t mean to make it sound all artsy. It’s just an itch.

  84. 84.

    slag

    @Subject: Very true. Almost every documentary I’ve found memorable has been about a very specific subject that, at the time, I had only a cursory interest in. One NOVA documentary I saw recently was about the “Ant Man” (some dude who studies ants). Never would have thought I’d be so engrossed by ants before. And that’s just one of many examples.

    Make DougJ tell us when your book comes out, pls.

  85. 85.

    Comrade Darkness

    @tripletee: That’s exactly it. I decided I was never going to get it, really, and that was a good thing. Brown et al are basically prime time television in paper form. That’s the only explanation I can come up with. Accessible and pushing buttons wired to the lizard brain while feeding a never-satiated need for repeated tropes. Clearly, there is a market.

  86. 86.

    Subject

    slag,

    This post is simply a subversive attempt to crank interest in the book, which will be self-published next week. That is entirely a lie.

    You’re very kind to inquire about the book’s release. Obviously that’s a ways away, but perhaps doug will let you know. I’m humbled at the thought.

    In the meantime I’m searching for a good editor. One that knows grammar and spelling but won’t be a dick about it. I mean, book publishing is not some oligarhy.

  87. 87.

    Comrade Darkness

    @tripletee: I did say “small press”. *Brand* did not enter into it.

    Nice imagery tho. I’ll take corpse humping off to my pillow tonight. Thanks.

  88. 88.

    White House Department of Law (fmrly Jim-Bob)

    Agent. Worth the potential expense.

    Have been in the book biz for nearly 20 years–long enough to know that an agent will be necessary at some point in the game.

    My friend/neighbor–a law prof/first time author–just sold his m/s to an editor I worked with for six years–I had sent this editor the outline of my friend’s tome, and told him which agent was my friend’s rep. Even with my contacts, my first advice was for my friend to contact a short list of agents I regularly work with. He sold it for a high-five figures advance, royalties schedule unknown (to me).

    Just be ready to either write a freelance publicist/marketer into the contract, (with the publisher covering the cost), or pay for one out of your pocket. Publishers promise the sky and deliver the finger, unless you’re already a known quantity.

    And even the “best” people in book marketing know fuck-all–it’s the lemon-ade stand variety of marketing, “let’s throw a bunch of stuff at the wall to make people think we know things, and pray that some of it sticks.” Zero quantitative analysis or other legitimate multidisciplinary marketing, just a bunch of 20-something trustafarians trying to make their bones, so they can move on to bigger things. Either way, it’s up to you to drum up interest in your book. Do a virtual author event here on Balloon Juice!

  89. 89.

    Kristine

    @Subject: Just curious–why do you need to search for an editor? Didn’t you receive your offer from an acquiring editor for your prospective publisher?

    A copy editor? The publishing house should handle that.

  90. 90.

    tripletee

    @SGEW:

    Why would you do that to yourself?

    Because I have some unfortunate obsessive-compulsive tic that forces me to finish almost any book, movie or game that I start, no matter how soul-renderingly awful. It’s like I feel obligated to the creator(s), even when they obviously hate me and want me to suffer.

    @Comrade Darkness:

    I did say “small press”.

    Ah, missed that. And sorry for the imagery but I couldn’t come up with another phrase that fully captured the offensiveness of those books.

  91. 91.

    Guster

    @cat: What Kristine said.

    Also, in theory, we’re talking about _advances_ here: once the book earns the $15,000 advance, I’ll get the _next_ $50,000 in royalties all the same. (Except only one of my books has ever ‘earned out’–make more than the advance–and that for perhaps $700. But in theory I’m quite wealthy. It’s only in practice my checks bounce.)

    Also also, some can write more than one book a year. My most recent deal is for two YA novels. I can write one in three months, maybe four. So I’m trying to sell an adult (as in ‘grown up’, not ‘naughty’) novel at the same time. Wish me luck!

  92. 92.

    Subject

    Kristine: I was kidding about needing an editor. It was simply a lame opportunity to remind Glenn Beck how to spell “oligarchy.” I assumed I wasn’t the only one to see that clip.

    Guster: You say only one of your books has ever “earned out.” What is a standard number of books that need to be sold to earn out? For example, if the proposed initial print run is 10k, should I be earning out within that run? Or is it standard to not earn out until a second run or more?

  93. 93.

    Kristine

    @subject sorry–it was late.

    One of Justine Larbalestier ‘s blog posts covers the subject of earning out advances. I think only 3 of 5 of mine have so far.

    There’s no set rule as to how many copies sold=earn out. There’s also the fact that your book doesn’t have to earn out in order for the publisher to make money. These articles by a former Tor editor about profit and loss and other publishing subjects are worth the small amount she is charging. Also, if you search on “book profit and loss” or “P&L”, you should find a lot of similar info.

    @guster You’re writing YA, too? So many of my friends are doing so. It amazes.

  95. 95.

    J.D. Rhoades

    @White House Department of Law (fmrly Jim-Bob):

    And even the “best” people in book marketing know fuck-all—it’s the lemon-ade stand variety of marketing, “let’s throw a bunch of stuff at the wall to make people think we know things, and pray that some of it sticks.” Zero quantitative analysis or other legitimate multidisciplinary marketing, just a bunch of 20-something trustafarians trying to make their bones, so they can move on to bigger things.

    Don’t get me started.

  97. 97.

    Kristine

    @J.D. Rhoades: I wish I could think of a suitable story. I would be all over it.

    And hey, it means that despite all the handwringing articles to the contrary, kids are reading. Here’s the hope that they carry the habit over into adulthood.

  98. 98.

    J.D. Rhoades

    @Kristine:

    Last year, I chaired the judging for the YA Edgar award (given out by the mystery Writers of America). I read a LOT of YA stuff, and a lot of it was very, very good. Like you, it gave me hope.

    Your books look like huge fun, BTW. I think I’ll check them out.

  99. 99.

    Guster

    Yeah, this is a first for me–my other stuff (which is just two novels and three nonfiction books and some articles and such; I’m hardly the authority I’m pretending to be!) is for adults. But as you say, it’s a hot market …

    And it’s actually quite fun. Some of the more innovative stuff–at least commercially–seems to be happening in the YA market.

    JD–I’d bet a hundred bucks that ‘don’t get me started’ means ‘have _I_ got a book signing story for _you_!’

    I’m pretty excited that I’ve found two new writers to read. Am going to order your books from the local bookstore next week.

  100. 100.

    Kristine

    @Guster: Hate to say it, but a few of mine are permanently OOO. You’ll have better luck used/electronic.

    JD Rhoades–your books look neat, as well.I really like thrillers.

  102. 102.

    Journeywoman

    Hi,

    I work in publishing. Sorry I’m coming late to this.

    1) Get an Agent. No reputable publisher will be scared away from it.

    2) Go for a lower advance if they say they will put some of that money for publicity. This way you’ll get more royalties.

    Good luck!

  103. 103.

    tripletee

    @J.D. Rhoades:

    It’s a surprisingly hot market.

    It’s been interesting to see a lot of established authors in the adult market move into YA – I never thought I’d find Carl Hiaasen on the shelves in the youth section, for instance. I was amused by him basically daring kids to read “The Monkey Wrench Gang” in his latest YA book.

    I read a LOT of YA stuff, and a lot of it was very, very good.

    I have a son (a voracious reader) who’s on the cusp of moving into that demo, so I’m happy there’s so much quality stuff for him to explore. It was pretty much a wasteland when I was that age.

  104. 104.

    Thomas Levenson

    Very late to the party. Get an agent: they do more than sell the book, if they are any good (and don’t choose one that doesn’t believe in your work).

    If you really don’t want an agent for whatever reason, at least hire a good lawyer with a knowledge of IP and publishing/media contracts to go over the contract. It will cost you up front — but it is essential to get someone who actually understands the business to check through this document; it will govern your life for a year or much more.

    I’ve written a bit about this (and second Sean’s rec of Scalzi’s post). You can see my take here: http://inversesquare.wordpress.com/2009/05/19/diary-of-a-trade-book-newton-and-the-counterfeiter-2-0-agents/
    and here: http://inversesquare.wordpress.com/2009/05/20/diary-of-trade-book-newton-and-the-counterfeiter-2-5-agents-and-publishers/

    Re the deal: I don’t believe the print run either. I’m on my fourth non-fiction book, some national coverage and all that, and this is my first book with an initial go-to-press of more than 10k. And it isn’t selling out (sob!) And the book selling business is in dire straits right now. And the technology of printing is such that reprints can occur with very rapid turn around. So short of Sarah Palin’s memoirs, I doubt very much that a first book by an otherwise un-famous author is going to command a press run of that size.

    That said, the more or less standard royalty schedule I’ve received on all of my books calls for a hard cover royalty of 10% of cover price for the first 5,000 sold, 12.5% for the next 5k and 15% thereafter; 7.5% on the paperback if published in-house, and 50% of book club receipts. This latest was the first one for which I sold e-book rights, and here we were able to get 50% of publisher’s receipts, which is high relative to the industry, and I doubt I’ll be able to get it next time.

    So, were this publisher actually to believe, for whatever reason, that they could sell a significant percentage of their 10k copies at, let’s say for the sake of argument, 25$ cover price, the author’s royalty (not advance) on the first 8K sold would be a little bit shy of $25,000. Given that publishers (reasonably enough) need to hedge their expectations of success and to cover the fixed costs of producing any book, an economically sensible advance — again, given that they really think a 10K print run is plausible) would be some significantly smaller percentage of that total.

    Beyond that — this is a game of expectations and hope and magical thinking. I’ve never earned out an advance, and it doesn’t look like I’m going to on my current book. I know agents who swear that if a book does earn out they haven’t done their job, because they didn’t extract enough money up front. But realistically, especially given the horrors of contemporary publishing, enormous advances for all but a vanishingly few books are going to be almost impossible to achieve.

  105. 105.

    Thomas Levenson

    One other note: my first three contracts all tracked Guster’s as described above: half the advance on signing, half on acceptance. The latest one moved to this annoyance: one third on signing, one third on acceptance, one third on publication. I was able to insert a clause that made it one third on publication or twelve months after acceptance, whichever came first — as I did not want to have money for a finished project hanging out at a publisher’s scheduling whim.

  106. 106.

    HRA

    I am the one who gets those books and other materials ready to be shelved in our U. libraries. I have been cataloging for almost 24 years now. The selectors seem to do selections by popular demand and trends. Then I could also attest to old out of print books being purchased for professors’ class needs and for their own selves. These older books are more often purchased from Amazon and B&N. I also get to see the invoices.

    I have always been an avid reader. It’s very easy for me to read one book in a day. Yes, JD Rhoades I have read your books. They are excellent.

  107. 107.

    Maude

    A good site is predators and editors.
    I’m going to slush fund a book for four year old girls. It’s going as a stand alone although there ar two finished in the series and one in third draft.

  108. 108.

    Lizzy L

    DougJ, tell your friend, publishing is a business. Publishers buy books from authors because they think they are going to make money on the deal. They do not buy books to do authors a favor or out of innate goodness. They are professionals. Agents are professionals. Authors who don’t have agents are amateurs, and they get screwed. No, the publisher, if this is a reputable publisher, will not get “scared off” because your friend gets an agent. The publisher will be relieved, because he will be dealing with another professional who knows how the game is played. If the publisher makes it clear he does not want to deal with an agent, tell your friend to walk away — this publisher is a crook and your friend cannot trust him/her.

  109. 109.

    Moe Gamble

    Subject, the publisher will not at all mind dealing with an agent, if that is what you prefer. He/she won’t feel insulted or resentful. It won’t have any influence whatsoever on his attitude toward you or your book.

    Just don’t be naive about agents either. When I had an agent, I had to fight harder with my agent over what I wanted in the contract than I had to fight with my publisher once I got rid of the agent. I honestly prefer direct contact with my publisher, rather than always having to go through a go-between who is frequently not available. Also, don’t forget, if you sign on with an agent, you’re going to be signing a contract with that agent. Are you going to get another agent to advise you on the agent’s contract?

    You’re going to have to read up on book contracts and standard deals anyway, so you can supervise the agent properly. Honestly, if you’re smart enough to write a book, you’re smart enough to negotiate this contract.

    And if your publisher has a list of authors you admire, the publisher is highly unlikely to be a crook unless many of those authors have published subsequent books elsewhere. (But again, if you simply prefer being represented by an agent, it will not be a problem with your publisher.)

    Re #108, Lizzy L, publishers don’t always take a book because they expect to make money on it. Sometimes they take on a book because they have high expectations for the author in the future, and they want to get in on the ground floor, or because a title would add prestige to their catalog, though little or no money.

  110. 110.

    Kristine

    @Moe Gamble:
    Also, don’t forget, if you sign on with an agent, you’re going to be signing a contract with that agent. Are you going to get another agent to advise you on the agent’s contract?

    Not all agents require contracts. Mine still does handshake deals.

  111. 111.

    AW

    As a wanna-be author, I’ve found this conversation very educational! I’ve seen some of the information before, but having it come from real people is much more believable and digestible. My thanks. :)

  112. 112.

    dancinghorse

    Another late commenter. One observation about lawyers: If you do for some reason involve one in the contract review, be absolutely sure it’s a lawyer with a solid knowledge of publishing contracts. Your basic, garden-variety legal eagle will go all head-go-splodey when he sees a publisher’s contract.

    Yet Another published author here. Also sixteenthing or whatever it is, the statement that no reputable publisher will be scared off by an agent.

    Start at http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/ and then move on to http://www.sfwa.org/for-authors/writer-beware/ They’ll help your friend navigate through all the pitfalls and the bear traps that beset the first-time author.

  113. 113.

    Lizzy L

    Moe at 109, you are correct, a publisher may indeed accept a writer’s first book under the assumption that while book number one may not earn out, books 2 and 3 will. Nevertheless, my point stands: publishers are in business to make money for the company.

    Obviously, you should choose an agent you feel good working with.

    Honestly, if you’re smart enough to write a book, you’re smart enough to negotiate this contract.

    It’s not a question of intelligence. It’s a question of experience and knowledge. Most writers don’t have the experience and knowledge that it takes to negotiate a book contract. Some do, of course…

  114. 114.

    Janus Daniels

    “… Most writers don’t have the experience and knowledge that it takes to negotiate a book contract. Some do, of course…”
    And they never negotiate for themselves. ; )

  115. 115.

    Ketzel

    No one may be checking these comments any longer but… My husband got an offer from a publisher just after an agent had turned him down. He went back to the agent who agreed to negotiate the contract for 1/2 his usual commission as he had not been the one to find a publisher. As this was a first time book and we knew nothing about contracts it worked out well.

  116. 116.

    motown

    What are the reasonable costs to getting a lawyer and/or agent? Do the likely costs outweigh the likely benefits?

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