Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Optimism opens the door to great things.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

Republicans don’t want a speaker to lead them; they want a hostage.

And we’re all out of bubblegum.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires

Jesus, Mary, & Joseph how is that election even close?

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

Meanwhile over at truth Social, the former president is busy confessing to crimes.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

It’s time for the GOP to dust off that post-2012 autopsy, completely ignore it, and light the party on fire again.

I was promised a recession.

Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.

Republicans do not pay their debts.

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

Hot air and ill-informed banter

We are aware of all internet traditions.

In my day, never was longer.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

Republican obstruction dressed up as bipartisanship. Again.

Black Jesus loves a paper trail.

“But what about the lurkers?”

You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Speech Open Thread

Reader Interactions

443Comments

  2. 2.

    Amy

    I’m getting tired of some in the blogosphere who think Obama can wave a magic wand and get things done and if he doesn’t, he’s no better than George W. Bush.

  3. 3.

    lutton

    watching baseball (WFC!); thoughts on speech in realm of ‘one foot already shot, other in sights.’

  4. 4.

    donovong

    The excerpts I have seen are just more of the same. I’m hoping he saved the juicy parts as a sooprize.

    Personally, I am tired of hearing Lawrence O’Donnell, chcuk Todd and other assorted personages pronouncing this as “the salvation of health care reform.” It didn;t chang a fucking bit over the last month, as much as they want to proote the idea that it did, for the horse race quotient.

  8. 8.

    slag

    I’m expecting same old equivocations wrapped in new packaging. But I’m feeling pretty cynical this month, so I’ll be glad to be proven wrong.

  9. 9.

    geg6

    Can I mention that it is insanely pleasing to me to see Senator Al Franken? It still boggles my mind.

  13. 13.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    Wot no live blogging John, what’s wrong with you? Personally I wish he would begin with “while I have a great deal of respect for both houses you mother fuckers either get in line or I am make sure you are replaced in 2010, count on it mother fuckers, count on it, everyone who is going to vote against a public option please line up by the doors for a beating with a baseball bat by Rahm thank you”

  17. 17.

    Elie

    Well Amy, that is where we are with some folks.

    Its really about their powerlessness and their inability to understand what it takes to govern rather than to be dictator. Sadly, a decade of Bush dumbed everybody down to the worst expectation of leadership — Instead of relief that he needs all the branches of government to function, and our help to get that, we get jack and jill bitching about when he is going to save their world — or else!

    To compare him to George Bush is intentionally to demean and show contempt…contempt for what? Cause everything — all the fixes arent there on a silver platter and everything done and tied up in a bow in 9 months. So take that you failure — you are just like the worst President ever in US history…

    So there!

  18. 18.

    JenJen

    This is the worst speech I’ve ever heard! I’m being indoctrinated by Sockalism! He is the most biggest awful dictator ever! Who does he think we are! We’re not stoopid! We’re not sheep! We will not succumb to Marxism and Naziism or any other ism!!

    Oh, wait… it hasn’t started yet? Not even the Sockalism? Are you sure?

  19. 19.

    Demo Woman

    Oudin (tennis player from Marietta, GA) is playing at the open. She lost her serve in the first set and is down 0-3.

  20. 20.

    General Winfield Stuck

    I heard a birther wingnut congressman will give the rebuttal . He will focus on the patient/witch doctor relationship the Obambi wants to install. Maybe Orly will make an appearance to give the newest skinny on how Husseini swam to America as a swaddling young presnit wannabe. And wove his voodoo magic on dumbass murkins.

  21. 21.

    ronin122

    @Comrade Jake: Who cares what he thinks? What’s more important is whether this is great news, or EXCELLENT news, for John McCain! Also of importance, what St. Sarah from Wasilla “thinks”.

  27. 27.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    Ooooooh I am now in a state of “crush” confusion, Lawrence O’Donnell AND Rachael Maddow are on my tee-vee together, I am not sure my psyche can stand it.

  28. 28.

    valdivia

    @JenJen:

    lolz.

    who will be the first to complain about what Michelle is wearing?

    and I am watching on cspan where I hope I wont have to put up with republican centric camera angles.

  30. 30.

    Comrade Jake

    Any chance we’ll hear from The Birth Whisperer tonight? I’d be curious to know what she thinks.

  34. 34.

    Comrade Jake

    Hillary has this look on her face like she can’t believe she ran into these people. Here, of all places!

  36. 36.

    Jim

    I’m getting tired of some in the blogosphere who think Obama can wave a magic wand and get things done and if he doesn’t, he’s no better than George W. Bush.

    Reading the threads of Another Prominent Liberal Blog (you could pretty much pick any of them), I was remembering what Atrios used to call ‘the Green Lantern theory’ of Iraq. I never read Green Lantern, but it was the idea that we hadn’t “won” in Iraq because we didn’t want it badly enough. A lot of people seem to think the reason Ben Nelson, Max Baucus, Mary Landrieu, Kent Conrad and Joe Lieberman haven’t signed on to the public option is because Obama doesn’t want them to bad enough. Throw in the passive aggressive primary-baiting and I frequent that APLB less and less.

  37. 37.

    Alan

    A wingnut posted this prediction at LGF:

    This is going to be the fearmongering on the mount. Millions will die if we don’t pass this legislation tomorrow!!!

  48. 48.

    Demo Woman

    Rove also says that the dems should be very afraid of passing real reform if they want to keep their seats.

  49. 49.

    SIA aka ScreamingInAtlanta

    @Dave C: MSNBC has been so nauseating with Fineman, Todd, an yes even Laurence I’m thinking about switching to CNN. Yes, it’s been that bad.

  50. 50.

    Midnight Marauder

    @valdivia:

    I just tuned to MSNBC a bit before the speech was scheduled was to begin and saw his stupid face. I loathe that man.

  53. 53.

    valdivia

    @Elie:

    neither do I but seeing them tonight acting as if they are actually real public servants makes my head explode.

  54. 54.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Demo Woman 8:04 pm

    Oh I so hope he does! In so many words.

    Having an awful time having to flip between Oudin and Obama tonight. Am so afraid I’ll miss something at the VERY MOMENT it happens!

  56. 56.

    Comrade Jake

    Rove’s opinion is actually pretty helpful, because you can safely assume that the opposite is what you should do.

  57. 57.

    blahblahblah

    Between this health care boondoggle and the Supreme Court indicating that they’re open to so-called corporate “free speech” to buy off every politician in the land…

    It is time to leave this country. If a million or two million educated individuals left for places such as Canada, Europe, and some Latin American and East Asian countries… that would really impact this government in a **bad** way.

    I’m not suggesting people give up their citizenship. Just take a job with a foreign company in a foreign country and wait things out a bit. You might be paying more taxes, but probably not. And at least those taxes would go to your health care instead of to killing people in warfare without reason or goal.

    By 2012, if enough do this it could severely impact gross revenue for the federal government. The goal is to deny them the funds to operate until they get their act together and start serving constituents again.

    If they don’t, then an Iron Curtain would fall and everyone would then know what the United States had become.

  61. 61.

    ronin122

    @Jim: Precisely. Different experience but it seems that a lot of the magic pony folks at DK seem to have a verbal tick where they just have to mention Hillary for absolutely no relevant reason–except of course to be a typical passive-aggressive PUMA. Now no one is saying Obama didn’t do “everything” that he could have, but it seems a lot easier to say he’s at fault for everything and that this is his “Waterloo” moment than to admit that it is kind of hard when you have shitty Dems like Baucus, Bayh, Reid (more for his uselessness and spinelessness than the others), Conrad and that fuckhead Lieberman doing everything they can to kill the public option if not HCR entirely (not going into whether w/o the PO there can be HCR, debate that another time). I mean he’s not a witch doctor nor a mind-control madman, even though wingnuts think he is. But that’s what you get when 20-30% of the Democratic party are in actuality are just displaced conservatives who are too sane for the GOP.

  65. 65.

    Jim

    Hope he says at some point. “And I want reassure my redneck friends”

    He does a Jackson Brown impersonation?

    Jus’ lemme reassure you
    My redneck friends….

  68. 68.

    dmsilev

    Omigod, Hillary hugged Obama!! She probably just stabbed him in the back!!!

    Sorry. Carry on.

    -dms

  72. 72.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Keith just called the Republicans “the visiting team.”

    LOL Keith! Ya makes me mad sometimes, but I loves ya.

  74. 74.

    crazyland

    Anyone interested in having lunch with Turd Blossom? It’s being auctioned off starting at $7,500. The Big Cheese, apparently, is Moose-for-Brains – her bidding starts at$25,000 and you have to travel on your own to Alaska!

  75. 75.

    Midnight Marauder

    @valdivia:

    Brilliant. I always remember that way later than I should. And good to see Keith and Rachel push back on Fineman’s “the preznit’s numbers are dropping!! oh noes!!” by noting that a large part of it has been democrats and progressives getting pissed off over the summer.

    But thank goodness for CSPAN. It’s so much…cleaner.

  81. 81.

    geg6

    Well, that facism meme is down the tubes. These people obviously can’t make the trains run on time.

  84. 84.

    MikeJ

    I’m disappointed he didn’t open with, “Excuse me while I whip this out…”

    And was that Ed McMahon the Chamber? Right after Madame Speaker said “the pres”, someone went, “Hi-yo!”

  85. 85.

    Kiril

    John, I wish you would look into setting up a tinychat for BJ during speeches. I would much rather just chat in real time with all of you.

  88. 88.

    Midnight Marauder

    @dmsilev:

    OK, that’s probably the last time tonight that the GOP applauds Obama.

    I’m looking forward to the full chamber shots of almost the entire Congress standing and applauding, while a small group remain seated, arms folded, faces pouting.

  89. 89.

    D-Chance.

    Prediction: Drudge will post Nielsens showing the dancing show on Fox did better ratings than any network feed of the O Show…

  90. 90.

    blahblahblah

    @ronin122:

    No. This not “going Galt”. Henry Reardon and the bunch from Atlas Shrugged left society altogether and formed a new collective based on individualism. That’s not what I’m suggesting at all.

    Instead, I suggest strategically withholding federal, labor, and state taxes in the only legal manner possible in order to PUNISH the federal government. The goal of punishment is to change the behavior of our elected representatives. That is done by further revoking resources.

    It’s not Going Galt, it’s the libs Going Grover Norquist.

  96. 96.

    Davis X. Machina

    @ Elie
    Sadly, a decade of Bush dumbed everybody down to the worst expectation of leadership—Instead of relief that he needs all the branches of government to function, and our help to get that, we get jack and jill bitching about when he is going to save their world—or else!

    It’s not Bush, it’s a perennial, non-partisan form of laziness. 1/3 of this country — left and right — would just as soon have a monarchy, so long as the monarch was from their party. It would end all this tiresome ‘politics’ shit.

    Over on DemocraticUnderground.com there are calls for Obama to just throw Medicare open to everyone by executive order, and work out the details later.

  97. 97.

    Midnight Marauder

    “I’m not the first president to take up this cause. But I am determined to be the last.”

    That’s what I’m talking about.

  99. 99.

    Mayken

    Obama’s tie looks a little test-patternish in HD. Nancy and Hillary should have called each other before dressing for this event! Also, Joe Biden’s suit and tie rock!
    /sartorial critique

  100. 100.

    Shell

    “group remain seated, arms folded, faces pouting.”

    Looking like the ‘before’ group in an Activia yogurt commercial.

  101. 101.

    geg6

    Comrade Jake: Nope, not wrong at all. I feel the same way even though he doesn’t do exactly what I say when I say it.

  103. 103.

    D-Chance.

    65 years of Dingells???

    Funny, Greeny didn’t mention the name “Dingell” in his anti-Jenna, anti-aristocracy diatribe. Of course, he didn’t mention the name “Kennedy” either.

  104. 104.

    MikeJ

    I’m not suggesting people give up their citizenship. Just take a job with a foreign company in a foreign country and wait things out a bit.

    You still have to pay US tax on everything over $80k. Most people that have the option of taking off for Yerp are still gonna pay plenty in taxes to the US. Trust me.

  108. 108.

    Midnight Marauder

    @Shell:

    Looking like the ‘before’ group in an Activia yogurt commercial.

    obligatory “you owe me a new keyboard” comment here.

  113. 113.

    demkat620

    Some of people’s concerns have grown out of bogus claims spread by those whose only agenda is to kill reform at any cost. The best example is the claim, made not just by radio and cable talk show hosts, but prominent politicians, that we plan to set up panels of bureaucrats with the power to kill off senior citizens. Such a charge would be laughable if it weren’t so cynical and irresponsible. It is a lie, plain and simple.

    Oh Sarah, I think he’s looking at you!

  114. 114.

    kay

    @Comrade Jake:

    He’s really at his best when he’s not talking to Republicans. For God’s sake, just forget about them, Obama.

    They’re not your “friends” :)

    Heartbreaking as that may be….

  115. 115.

    Midnight Marauder

    @freelancer:

    He needs to break out the foam finger at the end of this speech.

    I can’t tell you how badly I want the Dems to break out in a “USA! USA! USA!” chant during one of the standing Os. That shit would be amazing.

  117. 117.

    gypsy howell

    These fucking douchebags are standing up, clapping and cheering while he talks about health care horror stories from our insurers?

    Fuck you. DO something about it.

    I hate them all.

  119. 119.

    dmsilev

    Hah. “On the left”, single payer gets some applause. “On the right”, let them eat cake gets crickets chirping.

    -dms

  120. 120.

    SGEW

    Anecdotes, then data, then consequences, then context.

    “These are the facts. Nobody disputes them.”

    Now comes on-one-hand, on-the-other. “There are arguments to be made . . .”

    Then his side.

    That makes five standing O’s now.

    This guy is good.

  123. 123.

    Sloth

    It is a lie, plain and simple.

    Barry, Barry, Barry.

    You want to say “lying sack of shit.” Try it out. Rolls right off the tongue, doesn’t it?

  124. 124.

    Midnight Marauder

    @kommrade reproductive vigor:

    I can’t wait for Saxby Chambliss to give his Humility Index for this speech.

    So far, I say it would rank somewhere between “No, I will not move to the back of the bus” and “YOUR NAME IS TOBY!”

  127. 127.

    SGEW

    Partisan spectacle! Disdain! Blizzard of charges and counter charges! Confusion has reigned!

    Bickering is over!

    Holy spit, he’s dropping th’ 2004 mojo!

    And . . . six.

  130. 130.

    crystal dawn

    single payer did get shit on

    getting rid of it and starting over got shit on

    reforming “what already works” is bipartisan bullshit

    later, i’m moving to canada :(

  131. 131.

    slag

    That 1/6th of the economy argument against single payer still pisses me off. Is he trying to say that health insurance alone is 1/6th of our economy? Because I don’t think anyone is suggesting we nationalize all of healthcare.

  132. 132.

    Joey Maloney

    “The time for games is past.” Shut up and sit down, the real grownups are back in charge.

  134. 134.

    J.

    I’m just going to sit here and watch Bill Clinton’s speech from this morning, honoring Walter Cronkite. Yeah, I know the Clintons blew their chance to reform healthcare, but Obama could take some passion lessons from Bill. Also I have a crying adolescent to deal with and don’t have the energy to deal with other “children.”

  135. 135.

    Davis X. Machina

    I really wish he didn’t just crap on single-payer like that…

    He’s talking to a House that had fewer co-sponsors in this Congress than in the last congress for HR 676…

  136. 136.

    dmsilev

    MSNBC just showed a quick bit of John Boehner sitting, with an expression on his face as if he had just bit down on a rotting fish.

    -dms

  140. 140.

    Delia

    Shorter Barack: Okay you kids, stop your bickering and grow up or I’ll send you all into time out.

  141. 141.

    Midnight Marauder

    @Zam:

    They are. It’s a representative from Louisiana who is a possible birther that once tried to purchase a British Lordship from a couple of con artists. TPM has more on him.

  144. 144.

    SGEW

    Pre existing condition gets the lucky seven.

    Coverage droppage and premium fixing makes eight.

    Caps and limitations makes a half-hearted half stand. Call it a wash.

    Tag line “no one goes broke” makes it a full nine. Not bad.

  148. 148.

    Zam

    @Trinity: Are you fucking kidding? What the hell is with these assholes? The whole Van Jones thing seems to make them think it’s ok to throw birthers at us every chance they get.

  150. 150.

    MikeJ

    Mikej’s health care plan: Execute everyone that works for an insurance company at dawn tomorrow. If we have to negotiate, we exclude janitors and lunch ladies. If we still have to negotiate, we move the executions to noon. And that’s the end of negotiating.

  151. 151.

    Shell

    Lord. So many venues, ie, concerts, debates…The moderator will say ‘please hold your applause till the end.” Why, oh, why can’t we have the same restraint on these pointless, endless standing ovations. It’s just gotten ridiculous. Who ever’s up there, Clinton, Bush, now Obama. If the guy doesn’t say ‘somebody ran over a puppy in the parking lot”, it’s an ovation.

  157. 157.

    RedKitten

    I want to punch Howard Fineman in his soul.

    I thought neck-punching was the ne plus ultra of insulting punches that I had read about here on BJ. You, my friend, have raised the bar.

    /tips hat

  159. 159.

    demkat620

    Yeah, just read the whole thing. It’s better on some things than I hoped, a little disappointed on others. But, this is good stuff.

    Man’s got his flow on.

    And not being a policy wonk, the word “lie” cranks my chain.

    Been waiting for that.

  160. 160.

    Midnight Marauder

    I like the comparison to states making you have auto insurance. Definitely makes that one go down a little smoother for some folk.

  162. 162.

    Corner Stone

    @John Cole:

    I’m watching NCIS.

    I’ve never got this show. Why does everyone act like Mark Harmon’s charcater is the baddest ass that ever bad assed a bad ass? The tough guy cheese just doesn’t do it for me.

  163. 163.

    Texas Dem

    When is Obama going to give Samuel Jackson’s “Ezekiel 25:17” speech from Pulp Fiction? That would be one hell of a way to end the evening.

  164. 164.

    Midnight Marauder

    That’s right. Call those motherfuckers out, Mr. President. Shame them in front of the nation.

  171. 171.

    SGEW

    The word “misinformation” gets sudden applause.

    Bogus claims! Agenda! Prominent politicians! DEATH PANELS!

    Cynical! LIE! Magnificent!

    We should really check to see who doesn’t stand on that one! Mwa ha ha!

    Heckling!!

  174. 174.

    dmsilev

    Okay, some jackass just shouted out “you lie” in the middle of the President’s speech.

    Stay classy, Republicans.

    -dms

  175. 175.

    Dave C

    It’s a sad commentary on our current state that the calling out of a lie as a lie by the President of the US feels so exhilarating.

  176. 176.

    Sentient Puddle

    I so very much approve of openly pissing off any and all Republicans of the chamber. Well played, President.

  178. 178.

    tripletee

    I want to punch Howard Fineman in his soul.

    Nice idea, but with a single fatal flaw: it depends on there being a soul to punch.

  179. 179.

    SGEW

    Choice and competition – auto bipartisan hand wave for an easy dozen.

    “Wall Street’s relentless profit expectations.” SOC!A1ISM!

    And accountable makes a hearty 13.

  180. 180.

    ninerdave

    Wonder who was the birther that yelled “lies” at Obama during the part about illegal immigrants not getting health care.

  181. 181.

    Comrade Darkness

    @MikeJ: You get a u.s. federal tax credit for taxes paid overseas on that money made overseas, and guess what… every other reasonably developed country’s tax rate is higher than ours. You won’t pay any (more) taxes. Unless you are in some kind of tax haven making money, then, yes. We haven’t had the “luxury” of that, so I can’t speak to that particularity. For the trouble of filing that form that says you owe zero, you get to continue to vote, in u.s. elections, even as an expat. Other countries don’t do that. Call it a wash.

  182. 182.

    SIA aka ScreamingInAtlanta

    O. is making statements the repubs are forced to applause. He seems pretty strong tonight.

  184. 184.

    Elroy's Lunch

    They boo’ed him? F’ them all. He’s not backing down. They Republicans are getting tooled.

  185. 185.

    ErinSiiobhan

    Aw shite… wanna bet that the story tomorrow is about the Republican who yelled “liar” and not about the speech?

  186. 186.

    Shell

    “I’ve never got this show.”

    Me two. This show always looked like the cartoon part of the CSI franchise. It’s llke an anime come to life.

  187. 187.

    Bad Horse's Filly

    Did you see the look he gave that person and the look Nancy Pelosi gave them? OMG – I don’t think that’s going to go unchallenged. Calling POTUS a liar during a speech?

  188. 188.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Hey Demo Woman, did you catch the camera on Tom Price when Prez was couting out the lies? He looked carved from stone.

  189. 189.

    Zam

    @dmsilev: To be fair he actually just called them liars, and we know most republicans suffer from a serious medical condition preventing them from practicing self control.

  190. 190.

    Midnight Marauder

    Everytime they show a shot of the Obstructionist Assholes, they just look so defeat. That they know that even though after this speech, they will all go out and rabbelrouse and lie and spout bullshit until they’re blue in the face, the game is about to be up.

    I think this speech is definitely going to shake things up.

  192. 192.

    Aaron

    I can’t wait for someone to figure out who shouted “you lie.”

    This sounds so incredibly reasonable, I can only imagine how poorly it will be received by the media and the right

  193. 193.

    Davis X. Machina

    Doesn’t matter. Over at DemocraticUnderground.com everyone’s leaving the Party and starting a third party, except for the people collecting for Kucinch’s 2012 primary run.

  194. 194.

    Midnight Marauder

    @Aaron:

    This sounds so incredibly reasonable, I can only imagine how poorly it will be received by the media and the right

    That’s exactly what I was thinking.

  196. 196.

    SGEW

    The Republican response is literally coming from the “Strom Thurmond Room.”

    WTF? Impossible to parody.

  197. 197.

    Tom

    I can’t wait for someone to figure out who shouted “you lie.”

    Olberman said it was a Rep. from NC named Joe Wilson.

  204. 204.

    sistermoon

    And he’s likely going to be censured by the House.

    I have never hated Republicans as much as I do now. They were simply disgraceful tonight.

  205. 205.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    According to Yahoo!/AP the Grand Old Pusses are saying Obama needs to start over and slow down. It’s all over bar the claims that if Americans get healthcare coverage the terrorists will win.

    @gbear: Yes. Although I didn’t see a return of the famed WordPress Error blog.

  206. 206.

    TR

    Congressman Joe Wilson represents Beaufort, SC, a lovely little town that I’ve vacationed in a few times.

    I’m going to call the local B&B we usually stay at there and let them know I won’t be coming back. And then I’m going to call his local congressional office at (843) 521-2530‎ and let them know what a super job their boss is doing.

  207. 207.

    SIA aka ScreamingInAtlanta

    BJ must have crashed – wha’ happened?
    The asshole from SC’s website is down – I tried to log on to express my appreciation for him digging the GOP grave down another foot. http://www.joewilson.house.gov. That’s OK. I’ll sent him a little note tomorrow.

  210. 210.

    RareSanity

    Courtesy of our friend Double E at RS:

    Joe Wilson has been identified as the Republican who yelled out that Barack Obama was a liar.

    He gets a drink on me!

    CONTRIBUTE TO JOE WILSON HERE.

    Bob Bennett (RINO-UT)was the only Republican who stood up and clapped when Barack Obama bashed Sarah Palin over the death panels. That jackass should be taken out in a primary.

  211. 211.

    J.D. Rhoades

    Can anyone remember any Democratic lawmaker yelling “Liar!” at George Dubbya Bush during a speech to Congress?

    But don’t ever forget, it’s the Democrats who are full of hate.

    The depressing thing is, Wilson will be a wingnut folk hero by morning, and all over the damn Teevee for the next week, at least.

  213. 213.

    JK

    If John Boehner, Roy Blount, and Eric Cantor had any goddamn respect for the Office of the President of the United States (I’m not talking about respect for Obama personally just the damn office itself, because maybe some day someone from their own damn party will once again hold this office) they would insist that asshole Rep Joe Wilson be censured for his despicable heckling during Obama’s speech. This asshole should be forced to deliver a public apology to Obama on the floor of the House of Reps ASAP.

  214. 214.

    r€nato

    the Grand Old Pusses are saying Obama needs to start over and slow down.

    yes, let’s wait another 100 years or until the GOP manages to win an election, whichever comes first.

  216. 216.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Wow, I’ve been trying to get back here for about an hour! Not sure whether it was the BlackBerry (it so often IS the ‘Berry) or whether the BJ thread was overwhelmed with rational, thoughtful, considered, yet passionate, opinions on the speech.

    Me, I thought it was a Very Fine Speech.

    In case I can’t get back in: night all.

  218. 218.

    freelancer

    and what the fuck was the paper that they were holding up defiantly? They were like, “TEACHER GAVE US HANDOUTS!” and I’m just squinting like WTF?

  220. 220.

    SIA aka ScreamingInAtlanta

    @JK: Cantor? That jerk looked like he was tweeting throughout the whole speech!

    I did enjoy seeing first the sneers, then the nervous whispers, and then the deer in the headlight expressions of some of the goopers. Nice.

  221. 221.

    Demo Woman

    @RareSanity: What are the odds that he’ll be sanctioned? If Boehner had any balls he would have him on the floor of the house first thing in the morning.

  222. 222.

    r€nato

    @J.D. Rhoades:

    last I recall, we were still at war. Heckling the president at a time of war, doesn’t that call for waterboarding?

    Who could be against waterboarding a traitor?

  225. 225.

    Davis X. Machina

    And he’s likely going to be censured by the House.

    By a party-line vote, so it won’t count.

  228. 228.

    Demo Woman

    While BJ was having problems, I went over to FDL and read a few comments. Gee, according to them President Obama joined K street or something. Amazing!

  229. 229.

    jwb

    @J.D. Rhoades: Which is why we should all just treat him as the troll he is and shun him rather than pile on in the liarfest that will ensue over the next couple of days. That’s a losing meme if ever I saw one.

  234. 234.

    IndyLib

    @freelancer:
    It was copies of the supposed R healthcare reform bill.
    I’d link to where I saw it, but I beebopped all over the damned intertubes waiting for BJ to get a new hamster and I don’t remember where I saw it.

  235. 235.

    Demo Woman

    What is in the water in SC? The governor disappears at length and justifies his absence by quoting the bible, DeMint is in a class of his own and Rep. Wilson who hopefully is taken behind a wood shed.

  237. 237.

    Stephen

    I think the selection of Boustany for the response indicates Republicans are giving up or resigned to eventual passage.

  238. 238.

    WereBear

    I watched the GOP response, and next time they should just get ALF, it would be more effective.

    Same old litany of lies… which had been refuted by the previous, kick ass speech.

    I loved it… he gave a helluva speech, and the only thing missing would be making the Republicans sit in a corner with pointed hats.

    But we don’t get everything we want.

  239. 239.

    r€nato

    @Demo Woman: well, in SC’s defense, they did give us Stephen Colbert.

    Beyond that… ummm, they fired the opening shots of the Civil War… uh, Bob Jones University…

    say, you think we can insist Mexico take South Carolina along with Texas?

  240. 240.

    arguingwithsignposts

    BTW, I’m just now watching the speech. I cannot believe a major american politician just used the word “LIE” on national television before a joint session! Fucking A!

    And the look Biden and Pelosi gave that shithead who said “it’s a lie” was priceless.

  241. 241.

    PanAmerican

    and what the fuck was the paper that they were holding up defiantly? They were like, “TEACHER GAVE US HANDOUTS!” and I’m just squinting like WTF?

    I’m sure the whole thing sounded great back at the frat house.

  242. 242.

    kay

    @JK:

    None of the bills cover undocumented. They just don’t.

    Republicans want to pretend we need draconian and extraneous language inserted, to feed their rabid base, and that’s all they’re worried about, because they’re not supporting the bill anyway.

  243. 243.

    TR

    It will work better if you tell the B&B the reason you are not returning.

    Yeah, that was my point.

    Most folks don’t give a crap about what their congressmen do, but if you point out that their congressman just cost them a customer, they notice.

  245. 245.

    Bubblegum Tate

    I’m going to submit this sentence from my favorite wingnut blog without comment:

    In contrast to Obama’s nonsense, Sarah Palin speaks some sense

  247. 247.

    geg6

    Obama rocked. I didn’t love every bit of what he said (tort reform is not what is driving the cost of health care in any but the most miniscule of ways and the effect is more inducement to malfeasance but I can deal with pilot programs), but he did and said everything I want or can live with. The Ted Kennedy letter was very affecting and set it in a moral frame, something I’ve been waiting for him to do. And I have never seen the likes of the rudeness from the other side of the aisle. Unfuckingbelievable. Talk about somebody needing punched in the neck.

  248. 248.

    Sloth

    I like the comparison to states making you have auto insurance. Definitely makes that one go down a little smoother for some folk.

    Yes.

    And the real WIN was the comparison of the public option to the state universities.

    Win. Massive Win.

  251. 251.

    Cain

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    BJ is incredibly slow tonight for some reason. Guess it’s all the sockalism clogging up the gears.

    I knew something was up when John went off to watch NCIS. It’s like he knew it was going to tank…

    cain

  252. 252.

    Midnight Marauder

    @Demo Woman:

    What is in the water in SC? The governor disappears at length and justifies his absence by quoting the bible, DeMint is in a class of his own and Rep. Wilson who hopefully is taken behind a wood shed.

    Crazy. Pure, unadulterated crazy.

  253. 253.

    JK

    I previously wrote that if John Boehner, Roy Blount, and Cantor Eric had any respect for the Office of the President, they’d insist on a censure of Rep Joe Wilson.

    I wish I could have written if Boehner, Blount, and Cantor had any respect for Obama himself, but I’ve absolutely given up any hope that these 3 assholes could ever conceivably have any personal respect for Obama. They’ve made it abundantly clear since inauguration day that their goal first and foremost is to destroy Obama by any means necessary.

    I say fuck these 3 stooges, fuck every Republican in Congress, and fuck their overlords Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, Michelle Malkin, Bill O’Reilly, Ann Coulter, Laura Ingraham, Wankertarians Nick Gillespie, Glenn Instascumbag Reynolds, Megan McArdle, Fox News Channel, everyone at Reason, National Review, Weekly Standard, Townhall.com, Human Events, Byron York, George Will, Peggy Noonan and every other rt wing asshole pundit who appears on cable news, hosts a radio show, writes a newspaper/magazine column, or runs a website and anyone else who calls himself/herself a republican, a conservative , or a libertarian.

  257. 257.

    Demo Woman

    @Bubblegum Tate: lol Sarah wants to give seniors a voucher so they can buy their own health care. How did private insurance work for them before. Oh yeah, it didn’t.

  259. 259.

    South of I-10

    Here is what I want to know. In Boustany’s rebuttal, he again touted tort reform as the answer. I am a paralegal, I did med mal defense for quite some time. It is very difficult to bring and win a med mal here, and general damages are capped at $250,000. What tort reform exactly does he want to do? That is not a lot of money if you are seriously harmed by a doctor.

  263. 263.

    D-Chance.

    Cole, didn’t you shell out money to improve this thing just a couple of weeks ago?

    As for tonight…

    Total win for the Big O tonight. He reached out to the Republicans… while dressing them down on a national stage in prime time. He offered the right hand of bipartisanship while delivering the left hand of pimp-slapdom. And did they ever look uncomfortable, bitter, and defeated. It was masterful. Probably the best speech of his term.

    But, now for the follow-up. One great speech does not make for one great health care bill. And the devil is always in the details and fine print and “extensions and revisions”. Between 5 different committee bills and several more weeks of haggling and compromise, what will be the bottom line?

  265. 265.

    kay

    @geg6:

    It might be good. If malpractice rates don’t go down in the pilot areas, and, maybe more importantly, if physicians are still ordering unnecessary tests, we won’t be able to blame litigation, and we’ll have to address the real reasons physicians are ordering unnecessary tests.

    I think it’s probably because they 1. can bill every time they test, and 2. many times, they (or the practice) own the testing equipment.

    There’s a profit motive on these tests that we’re deliberately ignoring. Maybe we can finally look at that particular sacred cow.

  266. 266.

    arguingwithsignposts

    @South of I-10:

    It’s the “blame the lawyers” standard GOP tactic. They’ve been carrying that water for 30 years. From what I’ve seen, torts are only like 2 percent of total cost of health care, so it wouldn’t make a diff. But, you know, McCain bitches about earmarks as if that’s a big fuckin’ deal too.

  267. 267.

    CaseyL

    Rachel brought up my concerns: the President did make a specific point of saying there would be an individual mandate, but was not equally specific about cost containment. Perhaps that’ll be fleshed out later, but mandate without cost containment is such a dreadful idea it casts a pall over what was otherwise a fantastic speech.

  268. 268.

    JenJen

    @Demo Woman: Oh gawd, I went over there, too, during the downtime. FDL absolutely believes Obama has sold his soul to the GOP and the insurance lobby and turned his back on women forever. It’s just staggering.

    I guess the more moderate Dems are over here? Or am I missing something? I thought the speech f’n rocked, personally.

  269. 269.

    Sloth

    @Alan:

    Yeah, but on the Right he’ll be considered a hero.

    He will, no doubt.

    But he’s proven beyond any doubt that the republican caucus is nothing but a bunch of teabaggers.

    Watch the dems close ranks.

    Watch the republican centrists flee.

    I bet that the Right comes to *hate* Joe Wilson.

  270. 270.

    arguingwithsignposts

    BTW, I am sick and tired of Obama kissing the GOP ass (with that medical lawsuit reform stuff where the GOP did a standing O).

    these people don’t give a shit, and will vote no no matter what is in the bill. Fuck ’em. I know it’s not Obama’s style, but dammit I wish he’d jam some shit down their throats.

  271. 271.

    harlana pepper

    well fuck joe wilson . as if the state of sc hasn’t been shamed and humiliated enough . we are such a bunch of dumbfucks to elect these people . we deserve what we get

  272. 272.

    freelancer

    @IndyLib:

    There were a couple moments in the speech, where O had such a look of disdain on his face, that I was like Uh Oh, they’re gonna play the angry black guy card. If he would have been truly pissed, he would have called their bluff, walked down, grabbed a copy of their supposed “bill” took it back up to the podium and read it and called for an immediate vote.

    like “Heh, my Republican friends have been waving around their plan for the last 15 minutes trying to get my attention. We’re going to read through this two page brochure. Well, well, would you look at that, it’s a 2 page bill with some graphics and a 3% tax cut on Health Care corporations. You know what, in the spirit of democracy, we’ve got everyone here we need, lets vote on this thing right now. If it passes, I’ll sign it into law right here. If it doesn’t, we will keep working on legislation that actually helps the American people. Okay?”

  275. 275.

    Ed in NJ

    @JK:

    Sorry, but in the era of false equivalencies, Obama called the Republicans liars, so Wilson was well within his rights to respond in kind. In other words, it’s Obama’s fault that he was forced to break decorum and yell out during the speech. Further, Obama poisoned the debate by calling names, which was a breach of presidential protocol. He’s just not equipped to be president.

    That’s the meme for the next few days. Take it to the bank.

  276. 276.

    The Grand Panjandrum

    @IndyLib: This got to me: I entered public life with a young President who inspired a generation and the world. It gives me great hope that as I leave, another young President inspires another generation and once more on America’s behalf inspires the entire world. Glad I got a chance to shake his hand when he came to New Mexico to campaign for Obama last year.

  278. 278.

    Montysano

    ANY person who heckles ANY president in that magnificent room deserves to be yanked outside and have his ass kicked.

    That’s just the rural Indiana redneck in me, bubbling to the surface.

  279. 279.

    General Winfield Stuck

    The L word has now become an accepted member of our national political dialogue from left and right. And that is the way it should be when the truth is ignored or run rough shod over with the perps hiding behind phony decorum of speech.

    I don’t know how Obama could have made a better, stronger, to the point speech tonight, without using the veto threat directly al la Bush. And also a notice that reconciliation will be used if necessary. Bravo, O.

  281. 281.

    West Virginia Rebel

    The “It’s a lie” moment was probably the best. And the fact that Joe Wilson was able to heckle the President during a joint session of Congress and not get called on it by Cantor and Company (and what was that piece of paper? A Michelle Bachman manifesto???) shows how off the rails the GOP is.

    Agree with him or not, Obama was the grownup in that room.

  282. 282.

    Linkmeister

    I don’t want to retype my thoughts about the speech, so I’ll just point to my place, which could be construed as a shameless attempt to garner traffic. However, I know the good commenters here would never say such a thing.

  283. 283.

    Brian J

    Bob Bennett (RINO-UT)was the only Republican who stood up and clapped when Barack Obama bashed Sarah Palin over the death panels. That jackass should be taken out in a primary.

    I’m usually pretty good at spotting people, but aside from the obvious faces, tonight I didn’t get as many as I usually do. There were just too many damn people.

    Anyway, I’m curious, what’s with Utah? For all of the complaining that we are doing about what a bunch of jerkoffs South Carolinians like DeMint and Wilson are, the Republicans from Utah are being surprisingly reasonable. Huntsman comes out for civil unions and becomes Obama’s ambassador to China. The new Republican governor not only defends but applauds Obama’s decision to speak to school children. And now Bennett stands up and applauds reality, which normally wouldn’t be anything special but counts for a lot when you consider what a bunch of rabid, self-sacrificing assholes his ideological colleagues can be. When did Utah become a state of classy lawmakers?

    As far as Red State’s suggestion goes, I’d love for them to take out a safe incumbent like Bennett only to see him switch parties or for the seat to go to a Democrat. Few things, short of the party simply disbanding, would signal the decline of the Republicans than losing to the Democrats in Utah.

  285. 285.

    Demo Woman

    @JenJen: The speech was excellent. Public option plans would cover about 5% of the insured and I hope that it’s included but it is not an end all. I’m not quite sure what happened over at FDL.

  286. 286.

    South of I-10

    @arguingwithsignposts: As the DFH working in defense firms, this shit pisses me off. He knows that is determined by the states, and he knows the cap here is low. What “tort reform” exactly is he proposing? He has been on disability for years. I guess he is lucky he could afford that excellent disability insurance.

  289. 289.

    Shawn in ShowMe

    Between 5 different committee bills and several more weeks of haggling and compromise, what will be the bottom line?

    Moderately strong public option in the House, no public option in the Senate, a weak public option in reconciliation that sets us on the road to a Netherlands-like hybrid healthcare system.

    Obama-fu.

  291. 291.

    Sloth

    FDL absolutely believes Obama has sold his soul to the GOP and the insurance lobby and turned his back on women forever. It’s just staggering.

    Sorry kids, this is a centrist president.

    FDL and Kos will *never* be happy with anything less than the death of the insurance industry (“death by spreadsheet”), etc.

    I can’t say I disagree with them.

    Except that I want this shit passed, I want immigration reform passed, I want cap and trade (or similar) passed, and I want another four, eight, sixteen years of intelligent government in place.

    And I kinda think that we can get all of that, and meaningful healthcare reform, working *with* the death-by-spreadsheet guys.

    Which maybe makes me another kind of idealist.

  293. 293.

    Brian J

    Agree with him or not, Obama was the grownup in that room.

    My nieces and nephew would be the grown ups in a room of just them and the Republican leadership. Not exactly a high hill to climb.

  294. 294.

    Delia

    Jeez. BJ was broken for about an hour for me. I’ve just been watching Keith and now Rachel so I’m not getting any trolls or buzz killers. The goopers all looked like the boys who always sat at the back in my junior high classes. You know, the ones who who were getting D’s in every class except shop and spent most of their time poking each other, passing notes and seeing who could fart the loudest.

  295. 295.

    geg6

    kay: Oh, I agree that it’s the fees and the ownership of the labs and equipment that drives the ridiculous number of unneccessary tests, not fear of litigation. If I hear one more idiot say that unfettered profit! is fine in health care, I’m gonna scream from ignorance overload. It shows such stupidity about economics, markets, human behavior, and incentives that I can’t even deal with it.

  296. 296.

    SIA aka ScreamingInAtlanta

    @arguingwithsignposts: It might be just cynicism on my part, but I think that’s a show for independents. It’s difficult for me to believe Obama isn’t aware of the complete lack of willingness on their part to be involved.

  298. 298.

    Shawn in ShowMe

    From what I’ve seen, torts are only like 2 percent of total cost of health care, so it wouldn’t make a diff.

    But he takes away one of their pet issues away without losing anything. Political win.

  299. 299.

    Corner Stone

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    or whether the BJ thread was overwhelmed with rational, thoughtful, considered, yet passionate, opinions on the speech.

    I just lost a blood vessel in my eye.

  300. 300.

    r€nato

    @South of I-10:

    it’s the same red herring as all the folks who complain about giving foreign aid (to anybody but Israel, which actually gets the lion’s share of it) or hell, about earmarks.

    It’s symbolically potent, but its real effect is marginal. I wonder, however, how much we could save on health care if doctors didn’t feel required to practice defensive medicine…

  301. 301.

    Alan

    BTW, did that suit fit the the congressman who did the Republican response? I thought for a moment it was a Talking Heads video.

  302. 302.

    arguingwithsignposts

    Personally, I was affected by the Teddy Kennedy part of the speech. I like how he called out hatch, mccain and grassley. i hope those fuckers feel uncomfortable. they should.

    I think Obama is too much of an optimist, just from the end of his speech. The GOP is hopeless. I think Lincoln might have been as well, from reading his inaugurals.

  303. 303.

    dmsilev

    Per TPM, Rep Wilson has actually apologized:
    “This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the President’s remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill. While I disagree with the President’s statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the President for this lack of civility.”

    It’s something, I suppose.

    -dms

  304. 304.

    Sloth

    Moderately strong public option in the House, no public option in the Senate, a weak public option in reconciliation that sets us on the road to a Netherlands-like hybrid healthcare system.

    Huge Win.

    For everyone, BTW. Even the people running around whinging about “socialism.”

  305. 305.

    IndyLib

    @arguingwithsignposts:
    Progressives are sick of what appears to us as ass kissing, but I don’t think this speech was meant for us. It was targeted to the mushy middle, those people who don’t have much of a clue of the details of what the hell is going on, they just know they don’t like it when one side seems unwilling to reach out to the other side. They have a vague idea that if both sides have input then the end result will be better. They were the ones that all the talk of bi-partisanship was aimed at in the election and most of them voted for Obama because he seemed less partisan.
    The torte reform stuff was for them and to defuse the accusation that Obama and the Dems wouldn’t give the R’s anything they wanted and were too partisan.

  306. 306.

    CT

    Gawd-happy to finally get in over here and get some adult reaction. Same 5 concern trolls started dominating the DKos live blog with hand-wringing and misunderstanding of what’s in the various bills and furious proclamations of their intent to move to Upper Volta like, any day now. Sheesh.

    Thought the Pres. did an outstanding job, myself-did a better job at explaining (and showing, with the anecdotes) the necessity of reform from a human perspective, not just in terms of money or efficiency. I like the toughness in calling out the b.s. the GOP has been slinging. Classic Obama in waiting until the spotlight was brightest before using the word we’ve been wanting him to say for a month now-“lie”. Makes it a very powerful statement when used judiciously.

    Like it or not, he likes to be a counterpuncher, and that style certainly served him very well in the campaign. I don’t know if that was the smart way to go here-the GOP really got to muddy the water with crap without a coherent response, but I guess we’ll see how effective his counterpunch is over the next month or two.

  308. 308.

    kay

    @General Winfield Stuck:

    I’m pleased with the speech. He has a hard freaking slog ahead.

    I’d like to get something useful accomplished, so I will be sticking.

    I admire how well Obama handles critics. His physical reaction to the “liar” taunt was really controlled masterfully. That’s a rare thing he’s got. He has an enormous amount of discipline. He takes some really outrageous hits and seems to grow a little when they come, which is the opposite of what most people do. They shrink.

    I would be screaming at them by now. Throwing things, stomping around…..

  309. 309.

    freelancer

    @Linkmeister:

    coughblogwhorechough

    Your handle is LINKmeister. Fuggedaboudit.

    @JenJen:

    Thanks. In the future, I could actually see him doing something like that, when he’s in that affable campaign mode and has that incredulous grin on his face as if to say “Are these folks for real?”

    One of these moments is going to happen and he will own the news cycle for 3 months after that.

  310. 310.

    John O

    Hated the speech. But he knows this is all he can get, and Obama is pathologically bipartisan, and perhaps presciently long-term in his approach is just as likely not so pathological.

  313. 313.

    mai naem

    @CT:
    Hey, I’m glad if DKosrs are wigging out over Obama. Dkos has way too many Obamabots or at least it used to a couple of months ago.

  314. 314.

    r€nato

    @dmsilev:

    yeah, I think he got a speech something like, “you fucking moron, what do you think you are? One of those teabagging idiots at those stupid town halls? You don’t reallky believe that shit we dish out on Fox News Channel, do you? This is the big leagues, not the farm leagues. You’re going to go out there now and you’re going to apologize for your outburst, tell them you were drunk or lost your mind or whatever, and for the rest of the term, you’re going to sit down and shut up unless spoken to.”

  315. 315.

    jwb

    @Ed in NJ: ” in the era of false equivalencies, Obama called the Republicans liars, so Wilson was well within his rights to respond in kind….That’s the meme for the next few days. Take it to the bank.”

    And what everyone takes away from the speech is the brouhaha over lying and everyone forgets that Obama even said anything about health care. That’s my fear.

  317. 317.

    John O

    The President should’ve paused his speech, said, “No, you’re the liar, and let me quote the relevant passage in the bill,” and done it.

    THAT would’ve been news. And sadly, that’s all that matters.

  318. 318.

    arguingwithsignposts

    @dmsilev:

    “This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the President’s remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill. While I disagree with the President’s statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the President for this lack of civility.”

    On a personal note, if I were the speaker, I would refuse to accept this apology. “while I disagree with the statement” is just another lie. There is NO bill that allows coverage for illegal immigrants. Period. End of sentence. He even lies in his apology!

    Amazing.

  319. 319.

    Midnight Marauder

    @burnspbesq:

    Can’t be done. He ain’t got one.

    Two things:

    1. I definitely considered that before I wrote it. But I guess the optimist in me won out.

    2. I’m surprised it took 250+ posts for that to come out.

  321. 321.

    Shawn in ShowMe

    um, only 5% are gonna sign up for the public option? uh

    The exchange that includes the public option won’t be online until 2013 but the reforms “that everyone agrees on” will take place right after the bill is passed, making healthcare affordable for millions of Americans. Opening up the market to people with pre-existing conditions and capping out-of-pocket expenses is HUGE.

    The public option is being positioned as a basic coverage plan for the poorest of the poor, i.e. Section 8 housing. But the vast majority of Americans don’t live in Section 8 housing.

  322. 322.

    JK

    Anyone remember Andrew Card complaining that Obama showed disrepect for the Office of President by showing up for work in the Oval Office without wearing a tie?

    Will Andy Fucking Card tell CNN, AP, or any other news outlet that Rep Joe Wilson showed disrespect for the Office of the President by heckling Obama while he was delivering a speech?

  323. 323.

    kay

    @geg6:

    It just seems logical. They bill fee for service, and they buy the equipment. Once you pay the operator, that equipment is a money machine. I don’t know why medicine would be any different from any other fee for service enterprise.

    Add patients who think a zillion tests = good doctor, and it gets expensive.

    The best way to lower costs on your malpractice insurance is to…not malpractice. true.

  324. 324.

    Sanka

    Someone should have slapped that damned iPhone out of Eric Cantor’s hand. what a tool.

    Nice try. See, in 2009, some of us use our iPhones to take notes, including important people like congressmen.

    I’m going to call the local B&B we usually stay at there and let them know I won’t be coming back. And then I’m going to call his local congressional office at (843) 521-2530‎ and let them know what a super job their boss is doing.

    Yeah. That will work.

  326. 326.

    Demo Woman

    @harlana pepper: The public option would only be available to a limited number. If it were not defined narrowly, corporations would sign up their employees for the public option.

  327. 327.

    IndyLib

    @The Grand Panjandrum:
    Yep, that’s what got me. I just hope that Obama doesn’t become an inspiration the same way JFK and Bobby did. I’d much rather have a moderate pragmatist that serves a full 2 terms and has a continuing role in public service for many years to come.

    I wish Teddy had been there tonight.

  328. 328.

    kay

    @JK:

    I think it was way the hell out there, and that’s why he immediately apologized. Not a great move.
    I’m glad. It harms Republicans. That’s a win, and I think Obama is weirdly (personally) impervious to insult. As he has repeatedly shown.

  329. 329.

    gbear

    @Ed in NJ:

    That’s the meme for the next few days. Take it to the bank.

    I wouldn’t even stuff that meme under my mattress. The wingers can pull that pud all they want, but bawling out ‘liar’ at the president during a congressional address is never going to fly as anything but ignorant belligerence.

    Wilson has already been forced to apologize.

  330. 330.

    WereBear

    When you consider that the country has never legislated an entire industry out of business, the chances of Single Payer happening in one swoop are between none and freakin’ none, and none is out of town.

    I understand the passion about the issue, but I’m frankly thrilled with the plan as outlined; I think it’s the best we can possibly get at this juncture, and it will force the insurance companies to do right.

    If they want to get out of the business because they can no longer make immoral, indecent, ridiculous profits, that’s okay, too.

  332. 332.

    Brian J

    Nice try. See, in 2009, some of us use our iPhones to take notes, including important people like congressmen.

    Why would he be taking notes when a transcript of the speech would certainly be available on some site within a day or less? Hell, he could have called the fucking White House and they would have sent him a copy. What a pathetic attempt to excuse rude behavior.

  333. 333.

    DaBomb

    @Crashman06: Congrats on the engagement!!

    And Joe Wilson is the second biggest cracka there is.
    John Boehner has to be the whitest white that ever whited! Even if he is orange.

    All the Conservatives looked like they were constipated, smelled something stank or crapped in their pants.

  335. 335.

    kay

    @IndyLib:

    I got completely confused, because I was waiting for him to read a letter.
    I’m far too literal. he says “got a letter” I’m waiting for the letter to APPEAR. I missed the whole thing, all confused.

  336. 336.

    arguingwithsignposts

    @Sanka:

    Nice try. See, in 2009, some of us use our iPhones to take notes, including important people like congressmen.

    Look, if you’re such a fucking idiot that you can’t use teh Google to find the text of the speech, or stream it afterward, then more power to you.

    Cantor wasn’t “taking notes.” That is so fucking stupid that I don’t even know what to say.

  337. 337.

    Polish the Guillotines

    Wow. 300+ posts and no 80’s videos. Astounding.

    Obama dropped the hammer on Grassley. Thing of beauty. And someone up thread said that South Carolina asshat will be a wingnut hero by tomorrow. That’s gotta be the safest bet on the planet.

  338. 338.

    Cat G

    The speech was also intended to stiffen some Democratic spines in Congress…rather like the role of a pep rally before you go out on the field. Everybody applauds, cheers, looks around at their team..glares at the gloomy R’s and gets pumped. The D’s looked to me like they were having a very good time…except for Baucus. He looked pretty glum. It’s we who have to keep the pressure on with letters, emails, etc.

  340. 340.

    Seanly

    As a constituent of Joe Wilson’s, I would like to apologize for his incredibly rude wingnut shout at Obama. Pelosi had daggers for eyes over that.

  342. 342.

    r€nato

    @DaBomb:

    All the Conservatives looked like they were constipated, smelled something stank or crapped in their pants.

    Perhaps because sitting there in that chamber, away from their constituents and their astroturf’d town halls, they were brutally reminded how fucking insignificant they are and how close they are to being completely irrelevant instead of what they are now, a noisy pest.

  343. 343.

    crazyland

    While BJ was down I went to Palin’s Facebook page. You shouldn’t be surprised to hear they now have a new hero: Joe Wilson. They all believe Wilson was the only one in the room telling the truth and everything coming out of Obama’s mouth = lies.

    I’m now going to the kitchen to wash my eyes out with bleach.

  344. 344.

    Brian J

    The best way to lower costs on your malpractice insurance is to…not malpractice. true.

    I don’t know how these claims are handled, but I’m willing to entertain the idea that there exists a decent chance for people to be awarded massive sums when they don’t deserve it. But even if that’s the case now–and it’s not clear that it is–it’s not even remotely the main driver of soaring medical costs.

    But let’s say that doctors are really backed into a corner because of the results of outrageous lawsuits. Is there really no other way, short of putting in caps, to resolve this problem? We’re not talking about something that is philosophical in nature. We’re talking about scientific and medical procedures. In other words, there’s a body of knowledge on which to base decisions and judge whether one was reasonable and the person performing it was competent. Why are doctors so convinced there’s absolutely no way to reach a fair decision in a situation where their care is questioned?

  345. 345.

    jwb

    @dmsilev: Well, it means that it wasn’t staged to divert the discussion for the rest of the week. I’ve become so cynical about these wingnut outbursts that I figured it was planned to attract media attention away from the speech and put it on the subject of who has the right to call other people liars.

  346. 346.

    gsp

    I hope folks are not getting too excited by what he said. Let’s wait until his actions meet his rhetoric/words. So far the actions have been disappointingly absent.

  347. 347.

    The Sheriff's A Ni-

    Nice try. See, in 2009, some of us use our iPhones to take notes, including important people like congressmen.

    See, in 2009, there are these things called ‘Congressional staffers’ that can do the note-taking for you so you don’t look like a Craftsman toolbox on national TV.

    Oh, and how exactly do you know he was taking notes and not playing Bejewelled or texting the Appalachian Trail?

  348. 348.

    Demo Woman

    Boehner and Pelosi should call Wilson to the front to apologize. After he apologizes Pelosi should give him a copy of the bill and make him read the section that contains the information about illegal aliens.

  349. 349.

    D-Chance.

    @Shawn in ShowMe:

    Linky to a good summary of the Netherlands’ health care?

    I’m still waiting to see some hard numbers from someone. Anyone. How… much… is the individual cost going to be? I don’t care about $900 billion, what is coming out of my own pocket? That’s something still very much unspoken in this whole debate, and probably the number one thing most average citizens want to know. OK, I’ve got a new “option”… what’s the coverage and what’s this thing going to cost me every month?

  350. 350.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    @gbear: Extra Special Bonus: His apology will piss off his knuckle-dragging supporters who (for some reason, don’t know why) equate standing up to Obama with fighting the Red Coats. Provided “fighting” equals “waving signs with slogans suggested by AstroTurf R Us.”

    He was a hero to the sheet draped yahoo brigade for a few minutes. Now his 912er buddies have taken him off the teabagging party evite list.

    Bet: Within 48 hours he tries to walk back his apology.

  351. 351.

    Tropical Fats

    Fuck Joe Wilson. Fuck that guy to death.

    Sorry to bring down the level of discourse, but…

    Well, you know. Fuck that guy.

  352. 352.

    Sloth

    @Alan:

    You are optimistic. Maybe you’ll find someone to take that bet. :)

    Since Wilson has basically spent the last few hours trying to set new apology records, I think I’m good here.

    He just publicly showed that the republicans have no interest in working towards a solution for the problems that Obama laid out.

    Not good.

    Those are real problems.

  354. 354.

    GregB

    Wilson must have been taken out the the woodshed by his own party rather quickly.

    I think he’s the perfect gift. The base will love him and to the rest of the 70% of the nation he’ll be the douchebaggy heckler.

    Everyone hates hecklers because they really have nothing to offer.

    -G

  355. 355.

    Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist

    Anyway, I’m curious, what’s with Utah? … the Republicans from Utah are being surprisingly reasonable.

    There are some reasonable Pubbies here, but plenty like this.

    Utah is a strange place, and I say that having lived here for 30 years as a non-Mormon. It’s become much more cosmopolitan in the last 20, and it’s taken some insane gerrymandering to keep the Republicans’ grip on power. I’m not holding my breath, but the political landscape here could tip really quickly depending on where the demographics go – and if the national Republicans go completely nuts and admit they’re really the political arm of the Southern Baptists.

  356. 356.

    Martian Buddy

    @South of I-10: The stats I’ve seen are that malpractice insurance accounts for .5% of all health care costs, and the actual malpractice awards are a mere .2% — hardly the stuff that huge savings are made of.

  359. 359.

    The Sheriff's A Ni-

    I hope folks are not getting too excited by what he said. Let’s wait until his actions meet his rhetoric/words. So far the actions have been disappointingly absent.

    Yes, Obama’s going to stick his neck out on national TV to place his full reputation on getting health care reform passed so he can do… nothing to get said reform passed? Uh huh.

  360. 360.

    Brian J

    Utah is a strange place, and I say that having lived here for 30 years as a non-Mormon. It’s become much more cosmopolitan in the last 20, and it’s taken some insane gerrymandering to keep the Republicans’ grip on power. I’m not holding my breath, but the political landscape here could tip really quickly depending on where the demographics go – and if the national Republicans go completely nuts and admit they’re really the political arm of the Southern Baptists.

    In what sense has it become more cosmopolitan? And why? I find this topic to be fascinating, oddly enough, and if I had to guess, I’d say it’s because of tourism bringing in people who normally wouldn’t step foot in the state.

  362. 362.

    Cain

    @jwb:

    And what everyone takes away from the speech is the brouhaha over lying and everyone forgets that Obama even said anything about health care. That’s my fear.

    No, what’s going to happen is that Joe Wilson is suddenly going to be very popular in the news cycle talk circuit like Meet the Press and they’ll ask him “why were you so angry that you spoke up like that?” Yeah man, it’s going to be great. Joe’ll look real good then won’t he?

    cain

  364. 364.

    Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist

    @Brian J: Various things. Lots of people moved here from California in the 1990s (though many have moved away again, I hear). Salt Lake City had the Olympics, which was a driver for some loosening of liquor laws and such.

    There’s also been a lot of immigration here, and SLC is very refugee-friendly, so the population is much more ethnically diverse than it used to be.

    Overall, the state is “only” like 60% Mormon these days, which is a big change.

  365. 365.

    JK

    Question About Joe Wilson’s Outburst

    I didn’t bother to watch any post game analysis after Obama finished his speech. Did anyone see any pundit on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, PBS, CBS, NBC, or ABC denounce Wilson for his disgusting behavior?

  366. 366.

    kay

    @Brian J:

    I don’t like a federal malpractice cap because it trumps state courts, and state courts are (still) the courts where regular non-powerful people can actually enter and get a hearing.

    I am a state court gal. If they encroach to bar malpractice claims, in state courts, what’s to say they can’t bar the courthouse door to other individual claims?

    It would certainly lower costs if you were barred from suing your building contractor, for example. But do we want to do that? I think not.

  367. 367.

    maya

    Those papers that the repubs were wielding were actually flyers slipped under their doors this afternoon inviting them all to a free energy lobbyist spanking lollapaluzza immediately after the speech. They were signaling they can’t wait to par-tee.

  369. 369.

    Montysano

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    Look, if you’re such a fucking idiot that you can’t use teh Google to find the text of the speech, or stream it afterward, then more power to you. Cantor wasn’t “taking notes.” That is so fucking stupid that I don’t even know what to say.

    Thanks for doing that for me and saving us all from my “you damn kids get off my lawn” rant about PDAs.

  374. 374.

    Sloth

    Wilson must have been taken out the the woodshed by his own party rather quickly.

    His party is trying (desperately) to show they have a plan. And that they should be part of the serious dialog.

    And then they have these fuckwits waving “What Bill?” signs during a presidential address.

    And one of their own calls the president a liar.

    Well, you know, this is now showing that Old Bipartisan Spirit.

  375. 375.

    Eric S

    Re Cantor: I looked at his twitter site and it’s not obvious that he tweeted during the speech. There’s a post right about the beginning of the speech and right about the end. All the same, the guy was doing something on the phone and I don’t buy the notes thing.

    For what it is worth I liked the speech. As a purchaser of health insurance on the open market (self employed) I worry about the mandate without cost controls. Holding out the fig leaf of Tort Reform while smacking down the BS and calling out Senate Goopers who’ve helped Kennedy equaled a win in my book.

  380. 380.

    Davis X. Machina

    When you consider that the country has never legislated an entire industry out of business,

    We did, with the 18th Amendment, and the results were, shall we say, mixed.

  381. 381.

    John O

    @kay:

    LOL, kay. That is quite true, and I DO like him for it.

    It’s just that I’m sort of wired to believe angry is not the worst thing in the world to express, if it is done intelligently, which Obama also can’t help doing.

  385. 385.

    General Winfield Stuck

    As far as I’m concerned the most important part was the line of “KNow this, he will not kick the can down the road again” (paraphrase) . A clear signal that dems are willing to use the recon. process if necessary. He would not have made that clear statement if senate dems and Reid had not concurred.

    All the rig-a-ma-roll of bipartisanship effort was just for show politically to say he tried, and there was never any way the GOP was going to pass something with govment involvement into healthcare beyond what already exists.

    And really the wingnuts have made it clear they;re only goal is for nothing to pass and to destroy Obama’s presidency. I am even more optimistic that a decent bill will pass with some sort of PO, maybe with caveats and delays, but pass it will.

  386. 386.

    Justin

    You know, half the reason for picking Biden is that it’s useful to have a loose cannon around, like an attack dog who’s leash can be slipped from time to time. Imagine if Biden just walked off when Obama started speaking again. Then the cameras cut to him in the gallery, climbing over chairs to get at Wilson, chasing him out of the room, then coming back in, apologizing for the interruption to the president’s speech, and begging him to please continue.

    A little later, Biden would see the door peek open, Wilson trying to sneak back in. Over Obama’s shoulder, Biden would point, and then draw his finger across his throat, and point again.

    Politics will never be as awesome as I imagine it could be.

  387. 387.

    Davis X. Machina

    @CT

    Gawd-happy to finally get in over here and get some adult reaction. Same 5 concern trolls started dominating the DKos live blog with hand-wringing and misunderstanding of what’s in the various bills and furious proclamations of their intent to move to Upper Volta like, any day now

    Under no circumstances then should you go to DemocraticUnderground.com.

  391. 391.

    arguingwithsignposts

    @Justin:

    Politics will never be as awesome as I imagine it could be.

    In the kabuki theater world of the congress, those cutthroat eyes from pelosi and biden were about as close as you could get. I suspect wilson will be persona non grata for a while.

    think about it: how quickly did wilson apologize? nobody on the right does that for anyone other than limbaugh on most occasions. This was a special case of bullshit that was cut down very quickly.

  393. 393.

    RareSanity

    @Justin:

    You sir, have just made my night…

    Just imagining Biden doing the throat slash, probably prefaced with the two finger “I got my eyes on you!” gesture would be…awesome!

  397. 397.

    Shawn in ShowMe

    OK, I’ve got a new “option”… what’s the coverage and what’s this thing going to cost me every month?

    OK here’s one version being considered by the Finance Committee: The public option would be offered in any state where fewer than 95% of the residents had access to affordable coverage. Affordability would be defined by Congress on a sliding scale based on income.

    Here’s an excerpt from the NY Times

    Medicaid would be extended to anyone with income less than 133 percent of the poverty level ($29,327 for a family of four)

    For people with incomes just above that level, insurance would be considered affordable if they could find a policy with premiums equal to no more than, say, 3 percent or 4 percent of their income. For people with incomes exceeding three times the poverty level ($66,150 for a family of four), insurance might be deemed unaffordable if the premiums were more than, say, 12.5 percent to 15 percent of their income.

    This proposal gets it right on the low end but 15% is too steep for a household bringing in 66K, even covering four people.

  398. 398.

    bedtimeforbonzo

    You may be arguingwithsignposts but not me.

    I agree so, so much with this:

    “BTW, I am sick and tired of Obama kissing the GOP ass (with that medical lawsuit reform stuff where the GOP did a standing O).

    “these people don’t give a shit, and will vote no no matter what is in the bill. Fuck ‘em. I know it’s not Obama’s style, but dammit I wish he’d jam some shit down their throats.”

    —

    Midnight Marauder: Your anger over Howard Fineman seems odd. I’ve always regarded Fineman as a pretty straight-down-the-middle reporter. Maybe it’s time to just turn off your TV altogether.

  399. 399.

    IndyLib

    @Brian J
    I’m not from Utah, but I did grow up in an area with a lot of Mormons, so I can at least offer an opinion on why people elected by Mormons seem more reasonable.
    Mormons simply aren’t as pushy and aggressive as Talibangelicals and I’ve never met one who was angry at people who don’t agree with their religious beliefs. This is completely anecdotal of course, and may not apply to Utah. They can be smug and self-righteous, but they just aren’t the assholes that most of whackjob religious-right are.

  400. 400.

    Nellcote

    @Corner Stone:
    >Why does everyone act like Mark Harmon’s charcater is the baddest ass that ever bad assed a bad ass?

    Harmon isn’t the star of the show. Abbie the nerdy goth-girl forensic investigator is teh hawt!

  401. 401.

    Sloth

    Sullivan swooned but Megan McAsshole was not impressed by the speech. Epic Fail!

    Phew.

    Megan did not like it.

    It was good.

  403. 403.

    Rommie

    I was a bit surprised at the crappy reaction on DKos and C&L – I thought the President did what he needed to do, and said what he needed to say. Maybe I’m too easy to please – don’t stick me with forced junk insurance, and I’m in for Da New Planz.

    We have proof, PROOF, that the POTUS, the Veep, and the Speaker of the House do NOT have Ceiling Cat Lazer Eyes, or there’d been some Pew Pew at Mr. Heckler. You could tell that the President was at the “say ONE MORE WORD” stage of going off – we’ve all been there.

  404. 404.

    LindaH

    I’ve never understood the Medical Malpractice argument against universal health care. Most times victims of medical malpractice are suing for damages from the malpractice. If the costs of fixing the mistakes are covered by universal health care, I think the MM cases would go down. I work in a law library and I have read a lot of these cases, the majority of the awards are for corrective surgery or equipment that will help the victim live their lives. Half the time it seems like the plaintiff wouldn’t have filed anything if they could just get the medical care to correct or alleviate the problem. In the famous McDonald’s coffee burn case, the plaintiff originally only asked for something like $300, the cost of her medical deductible. She got mad and sued for pain and suffering after McDonald’s blew her off. If we have universal care then the medical treatment issues of the malpractice suit would go away. Studies also show that if doctors go to patients and say they are sorry that things went wrong, then the patient is less likely to sue. Insurance companies discourage apologies, because they are afraid that they will be used as proof in malpractice cases. And round and round goes the carousel.

  406. 406.

    Cain

    @IndyLib:

    Mormons simply aren’t as pushy and aggressive as Talibangelicals and I’ve never met one who was angry at people who don’t agree with their religious beliefs. This is completely anecdotal of course, and may not apply to Utah. They can be smug and self-righteous, but they just aren’t the assholes that most of whackjob religious-right are.

    That is my experience too. I had two young guys come here to talk about Mormonism, they didn’t look particularly comfortable about doing it but there they were. I ended up doing a reverse sell on Hinduism instead haha. They listened to everything politely and I was very impressed by the class they showed. Good kids.

    cain

  408. 408.

    IndyLib

    @Eric S:
    I think he was playing games on the damned thing, hoping that he seemed like he had more important things to do than actually listen to the speech. Or maybe he was putting those final touches on the R plan the Boehner promised would be out soon – 47 days ago.

  410. 410.

    Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist

    @Cain: Mormons simply aren’t as pushy and aggressive as Talibangelicals and I’ve never met one who was angry at people who don’t agree with their religious beliefs.

    I’ve met several. I agree it’s not their main way of dealing with the world, but they’re capable of the same nuttiness as Fundies. On the whole, they are less combative. I’d rather live around Mormons than Fundies, but they can lose their shit when they feel “persecuted”.

  414. 414.

    gbear

    They can be smug and self-righteous, but they just aren’t the assholes that most of whackjob religious-right are.

    Umm, they can be BIGtime assholes if you’re gay. Major league level asshole. Want you to be second class citizen level assholes. Total fucking assholes.

  415. 415.

    Delia

    @Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist:

    I grew up in Utah and still visit about once a year. In fact, I’m leaving for Logan this weekend. Here’s something I’ll say about it. Utah has its own special kind of crazy, but it’s different than the winger crazy most of the country is launched on. For one thing, the wingers are really tied in to fundie religion and they don’t like Mormons. So the Utah contingent just naturally keeps a little bit of distance from the crazies. So while you’re right on the one hand, Utah has certainly gotten a lot less provincial over the last thirty years, I also think that flatout loony gooperism may have reached the limits of its appeal in the Mormon community. Not because they disagree with Baptists on evolution, abortion, gay marriage, etc., but because when it comes right down to it the Baptists just don’t want them. And the Mormons will remember their history of persecution, will remember how Mittens was treated in the Republican primaries, and connect the dots.

  416. 416.

    DaBomb

    @arguingwithsignposts@General Winfield Stuck: : This is my summarization of how the Joe “You lie” Wilson part of the speech went down:

    Obama had a look on his face like “I WISH this fool would jump up at me.”

    Biden was shaking his head like “Uh oh, shit’s ’bout to go down now,” and Pelosi was looking at him like “Hold up. I know he di’ent. I just know he di’ent.”

    Boehner and Cantor were looking like “Damn when’s this shit gonna be over?” during the whole speech and Michelle Obama was side eyeing people left and right like “Yeah, bitches, knuckle up.”

    Stolen idea from another blog. Funniest shit ever!

  417. 417.

    CT

    @Davis X. Machina: I think I’ll spare myself that pleasure. A total frothing wingnut on another board I used to frequent used to throw up quotes from DU commenters as proof of how lame Democrats are-your basic “2004 was the last elections this country will ever have, because Bush will mobilize his secret army and declare martial law”-type stuff. I used to assume he was cherry picking the worst of the worst ’til I checked it out and felt like I would have been cherry picking to find a comment that [b]wasn’t[/b] wrapped in tin foil.

    I don’t begrudge anyone thinking that single payer would be better, or that Obama could have been selling his plan better, or made certain parts of it more progressive. But I can’t tolerate folks building special carriages so they can ride under the bus full-time. Its like primary season all over again-“HE SCRATCHED HIS FACE! ITS LIKE HE RAN OVER US WITH A BUS THAT HAD A GIANT HAND ON THE BUMPER THAT SLAPPED US [b]WHILE[/b] IT RAN OVER US!

  418. 418.

    Brachiator

    @IndyLib:

    Progressives are sick of what appears to us as ass kissing, but I don’t think this speech was meant for us.

    You’re probably right, and that’s fine by me. Progressives are much like the evangelicals. Just as the evangelicals like to proclaim “The GOP, c’est moi,” progressives think that they are particularly to be consulted and catered to by the president and the Democrats in Congress, and that the value of legislation should be measured not by its effectiveness, but whether it pleases a progressive.

    And, like the fundies, progressives believe that they have a special understanding of the Truth, which would be apparent to everyone if they just believed like you do.

    Sorry. Can’t use it.

    It was targeted to the mushy middle…

    To the contrary. Seems to me that the speech was meant to fire up the Democrats, to respond to the liars and obstructionists, and to offer clarity as to the President’s aims with respect to health care reform. And to my mind, it succeeded admirably.

    They have a vague idea that if both sides have input then the end result will be better. They were the ones that all the talk of bi-partisanship was aimed at in the election and most of them voted for Obama because he seemed less partisan.

    In some things, Obama is less partisan.. It seems to be important to him to reach across the aisle and include Republicans in his policy decisions. While you and I might not agree with this, it seems pointless to harp on it for the time being.

  419. 419.

    bedtimeforbonzo

    “We’re never going to get rage from Obama. We knew that. He’s no rager.”

    We’re never going to get rage from President Obama is he is smart enough to not let the Republicans brand him as an Angry Black Man.

  420. 420.

    bedtimeforbonzo

    “We’re never going to get rage from President Obama is he is smart enough to not let the Republicans brand him as an Angry Black Man.”

    Same concept as Branch Rickey selecting Jackie Robinson to break the color barrier in baseball.

    Obama is a presidential Jackie Robinson, and we are a better country for it.

  422. 422.

    CT

    @MikeJ: Admitting to listening to Flock of Seagulls is definitely TMI. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNT7uZf7lew]This[/url] song would have been the way to go.

  424. 424.

    IndyLib

    @Cain:
    I would have paid money to see that.
    The town I grew up in had a lot of Mormons and a couple of the little farming towns in the vicinity had been settled by Mormons and still have a 95% Mormon population. They probably made up about 20% of the population in the area I grew up in. And I never knew one who was 1/10 as obnoxious as the few Southern Baptists I knew, who were constantly asking me, “Have you accepted Jesus as your personal savior?”, until I wanted to punch them in the face just to shut them up.
    Most of the kids really were “good kids”, no drinking, no fighting, no swearing. They weren’t bullies or tattletales either. I never wanted to be one, but the ones I knew personally were decent people.

  425. 425.

    CT

    @CT: Hmmm…Bold FAIL. Maybe I need the pointy brackets instead of the square ones that Firefox put in for me. Let’s try.

  426. 426.

    bedtimeforbonzo

    DaBomb: Assuming we are on the same page, I did not mean that as a disrespectful comparison. Jackie Robinson was a great man who knew what he was up against. Barack Obama became our first black President well before most thought it would happen. Both men are trailblazers.

  427. 427.

    Fulcanelli

    @DaBomb: “And Joe Wilson is the second biggest cracka there is.
    John Boehner has to be the whitest white that ever whited! Even if he is orange”

    Bring teh pain, girl. WIN!

  428. 428.

    IndyLib

    @gbear: @Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist:

    True on both counts. Their religious beliefs are nutty as fruitcake, and they can be ugly when it comes to feeling persecuted and in their treatment of gays. I was speaking from experiences I’ve had with them on one to one encounters and in those circumstances I’ve found them much easier to deal with than Fundies.

  429. 429.

    Brachiator

    @kay:

    I don’t like a federal malpractice cap because it trumps state courts, and state courts are (still) the courts where regular non-powerful people can actually enter and get a hearing.

    Excellent point. This actually gives the Democrats an out, and an opportunity to rub the GOP’s face in their own “states’ rights BS.

    JK — Question About Joe Wilson’s Outburst. I didn’t bother to watch any post game analysis after Obama finished his speech. Did anyone see any pundit on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, PBS, CBS, NBC, or ABC denounce Wilson for his disgusting behavior?

    Listened to the speech and reaction on the radio on my commute home. The conservative hosts on one of the larger talk radio stations reluctantly, but emphatically, noted that Wilson was out of order and deserved to be censured.

    Davis X. Machina — re: When you consider that the country has never legislated an entire industry out of business,

    We did, with the 18th Amendment, and the results were, shall we say, mixed.

    Actually, the result was a failure and a waste of time.

  430. 430.

    Delia

    @Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist:

    [code]On the whole, they are less combative. I’d rather live around Mormons than Fundies, but they can lose their shit when they feel “persecuted”.[/code]

    Yeah. This is historically and culturally based. If you’re dealing with people who grew up as Mormons in Utah, going to Mormon Sunday school, they learned about the persecution of their ancestors in Illinois and Missouri. Then it’s tied in with the assassination of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young leading the people to the Utah Valley. It all becomes mythic.

    The sister I’m going to see and I were raised Mormon. We’re not anymore, and we’ve read enough objective history that we know the other side of the story. But this is what I mean about why Mormon conservatives are going have their doubts about the rest of the right wing whackjobs.

  432. 432.

    Midnight Marauder

    @Justin:

    Politics will never be as awesome as I imagine it could be.

    But oh, how I wish it was. That would have been amazing.

  433. 433.

    Midnight Marauder

    @bedtimeforbonzo:

    Midnight Marauder: Your anger over Howard Fineman seems odd. I’ve always regarded Fineman as a pretty straight-down-the-middle reporter. Maybe it’s time to just turn off your TV altogether.

    You and I have different versions of the middle, then. He’s a WATB, as far as I’m concerned.

  435. 435.

    Brachiator

    @The Grand Panjandrum:

    This got to me: I entered public life with a young President who inspired a generation and the world. It gives me great hope that as I leave, another young President inspires another generation and once more on America’s behalf inspires the entire world.

    A nod to you for your very touching remarks. I was thinking about the reactions of school kids who listened to Obama’s remarks recently. The vast majority blew off the phony controversy whipped up by some parents and politicians.

    I wondered how many of them thought, “I must be important because the president of the United States took the time to talk to me.” And I wonder how many will be inspired to do great things.

    “… the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die.”

  437. 437.

    Zuzu's Petals

    @Sloth:

    And the real WIN was the comparison of the public option to the state universities.

    Problem is state universities are massively subsidized by the taxpayers, which I’m sure the wingnuts will waste no time in pointing out.

  438. 438.

    Elie

    Brachiator way back at 417

    Yes, That.

    Davis X Machina way way back @ 96

    Yes…that too

    Thanks for your thinking

  439. 439.

    Zuzu's Petals

    @Cain:

    No, what’s going to happen is that Joe Wilson is suddenly going to be very popular in the news cycle talk circuit like Meet the Press and they’ll ask him “why were you so angry that you spoke up like that?” Yeah man, it’s going to be great. Joe’ll look real good then won’t he?

    I’d bet the leadership wouldn’t allow it…if he knows what’s good for him.

  440. 440.

    Anne Laurie

    @JK:

    Anyone remember Andrew Card complaining that Obama showed disrepect for the Office of President by showing up for work in the Oval Office without wearing a tie? Will Andy Fucking Card tell CNN, AP, or any other news outlet that Rep Joe Wilson showed disrespect for the Office of the President by heckling Obama while he was delivering a speech?

    Bonus fun fact: Andy “Born Coatholder” Card is considering running for Teddy Kennedy’s Senate seat. Assuming he can “straighten out some very personal matters” before the weekend, he says. Local news says the “personal matters” involve his wife-the-minister who just took a nice job in Virginia and is NOT coming back to Massachusetts just so Andy can get his frogbelly-white arse handed to him on a platter, but that’s because local newscasters are saving Andy’s DUI history for when he stops flirting and starts courting…

    Also, I love the idea of ten thousand Birfers, Teabaggers, and Talibangelicals googling “Joe Wilson” and having to wade through a lot of lie-bral reality-based stuff about Mrs. Valerie Plame.

  443. 443.

    bedtimeforbonzo

    Yeah, MM, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Fineman has just never struck me as offensive. Then again, I don’t know what a WATB is.

    P.S. If anything, Fineman seemed too tilt pro-Obama during the primaries and GE.

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