James Joyner explains how it is Obama’s fault Joe Wilson yelled out during the address:
While Wilson’s frustrated cry was inexcusable, however, it’s at least understandable. After all, Obama was indirectly calling him a liar. And being untruthful. From the speech:
Some of people’s concerns have grown out of bogus claims spread by those whose only agenda is to kill reform at any cost. The best example is the claim, made not just by radio and cable talk show hosts, but prominent politicians, that we plan to set up panels of bureaucrats with the power to kill off senior citizens. Such a charge would be laughable if it weren’t so cynical and irresponsible. It is a lie, plain and simple.
There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally. And one more misunderstanding I want to clear up – under our plan, no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions, and federal conscience laws will remain in place.
This, incidentally, was the from the prepared remarks, not off-the-cuff flourish. The president was deliberately poisoning the well, claiming that his opponents are dishonorable and ill-intentioned.
Kind of an awesome set of rules the President gets to work with. If you point out that people have been lying about death panels for the last few months, you are “poisoning the well.” If you don’t point it out, people believe it and the rumors and lies keep spreading.
Here on planet earth, the people who actually poisoned the well would be the ones who have spread all these BS rumors and lies. Not the guy standing over the well saying- “Hey. There is poison in there. Don’t drink it.”
El Cid
It is morally wrong to suggest that conservatives have lied; whether or not their comments are truthful or not is irrelevant. Clearly.
Brian J
Wait a minute. Didn’t the guy yell out during the part about illegal immigrants receiving health care? Perhaps it was a timing issue and the president mentioned illegal aliens after his dressing down of this who spoke of death panels; I don’t remember the order of the speech that well. But I seem to remember Wilson reacting to the part about immigrants, not about death panels. If that’s the case, Joyner doesn’t have a point, at all.
Demo Woman
How do you justify behavior that is against the rules of the Senate?
Wilson proved that he is dishonorable and ill-intentioned.
John Cole
No- they claim Obama is lying about immigrants because a CRS report notes that while they are not extending coverage to illegals, they are not explicitly banning it. Something that will probably get cleaned up as the bill advances, but right now they will run around screaming liar for a couple weeks.
Brian J
Actually, I see that I was being an idiot, because the parts were right next to each other. My coffee hasn’t kicked in yet, apparently.
Regardless, it’s pretty simple. Either Wilson and his friends were spreading this nonsense, or they were not. And if Joyner has some evidence that there are in fact death panels, he should come forward, instead of hiding behind the idea that it’s wrong to attack people for not telling the truth.
arguingwithsignposts
I respect James a lot, but that is bullshit of a high order.
Shawn in ShowMe
What search query do you use to unearth these idiots, Cole?
Brian J
Isn’t the more important question, by the way, how they are going to decide whether someone is legal or not before giving treatment? Short of some national identification card, what other routes do they have? What if the person comes in with part of their hand dangling off? Are they going to demand to see proof before reattaching it?
Skip Intro
Joyner also wrote yesterday that the Washington Post has no business bringing up things that Bob McDonnell did while in office.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/post_trying_to_macaca_mcdonnell/
Davebo
I used to. But he’s heading towards being like his infamous commenter Triumph.
Demo Woman
@John Cole: They want to see the long form of the birth certificate.
What surprises me is insurance companies pay for abortions and might possibly insure illegals. If the Republicans were so concerned, why not boycott the health care insurance companies that practice this. Could it be because their pockets are lined with cash provided by these companies?
Comrade Jake
Well look, I don’t think it was Wilson’s intention (because he’s not that bright), but the outburst was successful. What is the media talking about this morning? Not the details of the health care bills or the effectiveness of the speech. Let’s talk about the rude Republican heckling the POTUS, and throw in some hatemongering on illegal aliens just to balance things out.
The GOP figured out some time ago that diversions are effective in killing legislation.
Skepticat
I so wish that the president had reverted to professorial mode, stopped, and just stared hard at Wilson, then asked him to repeat himself. What a missed opportunity.
As it is, he’s reinforcing the wuss perception. Blatant rudeness such as this, especially in such a situation, going unchallenged breeds much worse than more incivility.
Even without this outburst, his continuing to be conciliatory toward those opposing him strictly for the sake of opposing him really angers and depresses me.
Michael
Hilton Head Island and Beaufort are overloaded with geezer retirees, military and otherwise, who have sockialist healthcare and sockialist pension benefits paid for by you and me.
Del Webb has one of those nasty-assed and gated “Sun City” places located just outside the walls, where selfish assholes can play golf and not be bothered by anyone’s grandkids (you can’t have them or your adult relatives even stay overnight – there’s a hotel outside the gate).
They suck, and I long to run a death panel that would deal with the demographic subset that makes up the sort of people that would buy in there.
Joe Wilson is simply a representative of a district comprised of one of the highest percentages of assholes in the entire Congress. He’s got unreconstructed white suburbanites in Columbia all the way down to foul-tempered greedy assed geezers on the Coast.
Anton Sirius
I think Wilson deserves a lot of thanks and credit. How many Americans will now rally to Obama’s side on health care, simply because some asshole from South Carolina didn’t show the President the proper respect and deference on national television?
rock
And today, instead of healthcare, all the talk will be the contrarian right wing radio pushed “Wilson is an American hero” stuff.
As for Joyner, George S. on ABC last noted immediately after the speech, when asked about Wilson’s outburst, that he had never heard a President accuse anyone of lying before and that was the truly extraordinary moment. That’s not far of from what Joyner said.
I agree with Doug J. We had a good run as a country, some good years.
Surly Duff
Isn’t this the modus operandi of the other side? Spreading mis-information, distorting facts, etc. is fine and dandy and just part of “democracy”. But when the opposition fights back, argues that the other side is lying or distorting the facts, the other side drops their jaw, clutches their pearls, and gasps, “That’s not being bi-partisan! Can’t we same the acrimony and move forward on solutions?”, never acknowledging the lies.
Comrade Mary
Actually, they do explicitly ban illegals in 3200, but the bill doesn’t (yet) say how they would enforce the ban.
H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS
Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.
someguy
Wilson should be expelled from Congress for that outburst. Even as bad as Congress is, it was below their standards for behavior.
Hunter Gathers
Ross Douthat has some serious competition for ‘Douchebag Of The Year’. That’s some high quality ass-hattery.
GReynoldsCT00
Everything he said was true, fuck the bastards if they can’t handle it. Jeebus!
Brian J
Can anyone confirm that when Wilson called the White House to apologize, the call was directed to Rahm Emmanuel? If that’s the case, I’d pay good money to hear that exchange.
Ethan's Mom
If this was from the prepared remarks, which were released before the speech, that means Joe Wilson knew the statement was coming. His outburst wasn’t because of surprise which, while wrong, would at least have been more understandable.
Napoleon
This is SOP for conservatives. When someone points out what you are up to shout them down or otherwise try to shut the conversation down. This post as well as the one on Bob McDonnell reveal Joyner to be a dishonest hack, just like the rest of them.
ppcli
@Brian J:
Anatomy of republican noise machine tactic # 537.b:
i) Make a fuss because the bill doesn’t expressly preclude offering coverage to Osama bin Laden. “This plan offers Cadillac coverage to mass murdering america haters!”
.
ii) After the Democrats say “geez, this is stupid, but fine, if you really want, we’ll add a global clause saying “Nothing in this bill is to be interpreted as offering coverage to Osama Bin Laden” you shout: “But it doesn’t require you to *show proof* that you’re not Osama bin Laden, and that clause is meaningless”.
.
iii) Should the Democrats say “Oh, all right, we’ll add a clause requiring proof that you’re not Osama bin Laden…” you argue that Osama bin Laden could use forged papers, so there has to be another clause requiring proof that the documents aren’t forged.
.
iv) Then require proof that the additional documents attesting to the authenticity of the “I’m not Osama” documents aren’t *themselves* forged.
.
…. After a few more rounds of this, switch to noise machine tactic # 332 iv): Say: “this bill is hundreds of pages long! Has anybody even *read* the whole thing?”
Shawn in ShowMe
<blockquote?Well look, I don’t think it was Wilson’s intention (because he’s not that bright), but the outburst was successful. What is the media talking about this morning?
And the media spent more time during the campaign obsessing over Sarah Palin than they did anything else. I don’t think successful means what you think it means.
Shawn in ShowMe
And the media spent more time during the campaign obsessing over Sarah Palin than they did anything else. I don’t think successful means what you think it means.
someguy
What I can’t believe is how Wilson is going to get away with this. It’s just wrong; you shouldn’t be able to shout at the president with impunity. If a Democrat did it, they’d be calling for his head, and if Republicans were running Congress they’d be censuring him at a minimum.
Napoleon
@Comrade Jake:
I disagree, I think the media focusing on how nuts Republicans act helps the Dems not only in the short term on the health care debate but in the long term by slowly defining the right as a den of loons, much like the Dems had to work years to shed the DFH image.
Demo Woman
@ppcli: Say: “this bill is hundreds of pages long! Has anybody even read the whole thing?”
Yesterday I read that the layout of bills make them appear larger than normal. The comparison said that the bill was smaller than “Harry Potter. Of course, many to the right find
“Harry Potter” offensive.
John Cole
Don’t start trashing James personally. I like him, and his is one of the few right-wing sites I can read.
Additionally, I guess I just am not really that worked up about Wilson yelling “You lie” during the speech. Personally, I kind of wish these things were rowdier- I’m a big fan of the English question time.
And finally, I’m sure all of today will be spent watching highlights of Democrats booing someone.
jwb
@Comrade Jake: Yes, and what are we talking about this morning?
MattF
Standard winger tactic is to accuse people of doing the things that they do– like, e.g., lying. The only thing that surprises here (and the only reason that Joyner is concerned) is that the tactic backfired.
linda
@John Cole:
and just what in the hell do these moronic fucktards think will happen should swine flu really take hold. or that little brown child who broke his arm falling off the swing during recess; or the van carrying laborers that crashed on the highway. is the expectation that these people will be abandoned in their time of need?
seriously, w.t.f.
eyepaddle
James Joyner sure went from zero to douche in like 6.2 seconds didn’t he?
I have to admit I didn’t know it was possible to be that big of a dick just by being that obtuse–but there’s the proof.
Ash
As much as civilization is going down the tubes and yada yada yada, you all must have been hit repeatedly over the head with the pessimism stick. Stop being so fucking emo. I’ve been switching channels for an hour now and only heard Wilson’s name mentioned twice, both times just to say what an asshat he is.
Sloth
@Anton Sirius:
Yup.
The way I see it, the republicans have only two clear paths to stopping healthcare reform (the dems, OTOH, have many…) The republicans can argue that it will cost too much, but that’s a sort of argument they do not like – it involves facts. The dems can also shut this down by, you know, funding the bill. And then we are off into wonk land and nobody cares.
The second path is to say it was rushed and that they were not consulted. This has some legs.
Well, it *had* legs, because the republicans made it damn clear last night, by heckling and calling lies (on things that are manifestly true) and typing on their blackberries and generally acting like a bunch of sixth graders in detention, they made it damn clear that they are not participating in the debate.
It is very difficult to claim that you were not invited to participate when you are proving that you *are not interested* in participating. On national TV.
linda
@someguy:
someone dug up an article about a bush speech before congress where two women wearing t-shirts — one anti-war (cindy sheehan, actually) and another the wife of a congressman supporting the troops. both were escorted out of the hearing and sheehan actually arrested.
Ann B. Nonymous
Remember, it’s not a lie if you repeat things you know are untrue.
General Winfield Stuck
If you ever heard Joe Wilson speak on the House Floor, their is a glaring truth that shouts out to all, that he is dumb as 4 hatchet sacks.
As liberals, we must treat the dude with special compassion as he can not help being a stupid motherfucker.
As a side note,, I would like to point out the HC reform bills do not explicitly ban the practice of providing health care for Furrin Unicorns. This must be corrected and taxpayers protected.
Shawn in ShowMe
And the Joe Wilson Expressjust keeps on giving:
Proof that one man’s loss is another man’s gain: in the hours following South Carolina’s GOP Rep. Joe Wilson’s “You lie!” outburst during President Barack Obama’s joint address to Congress Wednesday evening, his 2010 Democratic opponent has raised about $100,000 from 3,000 people, according to a spokeswoman for the House Democrats’ campaign operation.
arguingwithsignposts
@John Cole:
I don’t have a prob. with congressfolks being rowdy, if it were an occasion known for rowdiness. Actually, I’d like a “question time,” but a joint session speech is not “question time.”
And yeah, I don’t diss james personally, but that whole “inexcusable but understandable” take is what it is – bullshit.
Sloth
@Shawn in ShowMe:
$113K as of now.
http://www.actblue.com/entity/fundraisers/19079
Ash
@Shawn in ShowMe: Let’s hope this guy fares better than that Tinklenburg guy who was rolling in the cash after Michelle Bachmann opened her trap on Hardball.
Bob In Pacifica
I’m not opposed to calling a President a liar. After all, there were many times since 2001 that I shouted the same thing at the television (usually, something to the effect of “lying sack of”), and if others had called Bush a liar over the Iraq War then maybe we wouldn’t be in the messes we are in.
Having said that, Wilson was lying when he called Obama a liar. Courtesy aside, Wilson was lying when he called Obama a liar. Liars lying about who’s lying is wrong. But not unexpected.
someguy
@ Linda – that’s totally f***ed up. They weren’t doing anything but sitting there. Totally different situation.
The Moar You Know
@linda: The same thing that always happens; illegals will get treated in emergency rooms, same as they have been for many years now.
That section is in the bill because of political reality; you couldn’t pass a bill that says that it’s hunky-dory to cover illegal aliens. I doubt you could muster 10 votes in all of Congress for such a provision, as it’s political suicide.
That it would help stop hospitals from going bankrupt, and put a huge dent in costs (nothing like going to a level-1 trauma center for an ear infection to drive up the price tag for treating said infection), means nothing to the American people, sadly.
Cat Lady
Democrats will figure out how to get this bill done if now really pissed off Rahm has anything to say about it. The idiot Republicans will fling their poo and the MSM magpies will peck at their new shiny object and miss the point entirely. Please FSM, if Obama is as lucky as he is smart we’ll look back at this ridiculous summer and understand how the Republicans and the MSM authored their own demise.
If not, we’re all Mayans now.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
Not that I’ll defend Wilson, he’s clearly an asshole. But when did Congress become a model of decorum? Wasn’t Senator Sumner beaten half to death with a cane on the Senate floor in 1856?
Sorry, it’s just hard to get worked up about an asshole being an asshole. If you didn’t know the Republicans were assholes by now, I don’t see why this very minor example of it would convince you.
Ash
@Scruffy McSnufflepuss: There’s a time and a place to be an asshole. I have no problem with them bitching at each other on the floor of the senate when talking about legislation, or when they pass each other on the street. But a joint address to Congress, that’s being nationally televised, is not the time or place.
Morbo
@John Cole: Aren’t illegals “covered” already under the Republican and Libertarian health plan of “if you’re sick or injured go to the emergency room?” For the 10,000th time, whom do they think pays for that?
Sanka
The president isn’t so much a liar as he is a waffling buffoon. He’s never been able to stay consistent in this whole debate, which is part of the reason it’s been getting hammered in the public discourse over the past few months. First, he demands a public option. Now, not so much. Then, this that and the other thing.
One of the more interesting lies from last nights
campaign speechspeech was that the number of “uninsured Americans” is now at 30 million and not the 47 million we’ve been hearing about all summer.But of course, if anyone points these small “facts” out, they’re birthers or something.
Michael D.
I applaud Joe Wilson for heckling the president. Now, don’t get me wrong – I think he’s batshit insane, and I don’t agree with him at all – but I am glad he did it. I just wish he did it by, you know, saying something that was remotely correct. I wish more people would.
Where did this idea that people couldn’t heckle leaders come from anyway? Why is it that, in the chambers of the U.S. Congress, people are supposed to shut up and respectfully listen to crap they don’t agree with? If, for example, Obama’s healthcare proposal DID provide free health care to illegal aliens, why shouldn’t you be able to interrupt his speech and call him out on it if you really believed it would? Because of respect? Why would you respect someone who is telling a lie?
Has anyone ever watched recordings of the Canadian or British Houses of Commons? When the Prime Minister speaks, and when he or she is spouting bullshit, people heckle the shit out of them. And so they should!
I think Wilson is the liar here, but I don’t think it’s disrespectful, in general, to heckle a leader. One of the problems with Washington is that politicians let each other say WTFTW and don’t call them out on lies and stupidity out of fear of being labeled “disrespectful” to each other.
Boo-fucking-hoo. That’s bullshit. When politicians sit there quietly, respectfully, and let each other spew obvious garbage without saying a word, then THEY are the ones being disrespectful by allowing these lies and misinformation to go unchallenged. They’re exhibiting the ultimate disrespect to the people who elected them. Heckle away, I say. One of two things will happen…
1. You’ll look like an idiot for being a liar (See: Wilson, Joe); or,
2. You will have jumped in and not let the President (or Senator or Member) shove a piece of obvious dog squeeze into his or her speech.
Davebo
At least he didn’t bring a rifle to the speech.
Brandon
Don’t you know that no matter what happens, it is always President Obama’s fault?
Shawn in ShowMe
@Ash
The Tinklenberg gold rush was two weeks before election day — it was far too late for it to do any good. Rob Miller, Wilson’s opponent, has a year to build momentum.
General Winfield Stuck
Yep, I like the British model of questioning the PM, and the soul freeing ability to call a liar a liar is way overdue in our namby pamby political discourse, because it obviously allows lies to put down unfettered roots.
But I would go further by endorsing the South Korea model of discourse by fisticuffs when called for. When done in moderation, it is quite exciting to watch and no need to worry about good grammar, which is always appreciated.
donovong
@Brian J: Get ready for your bar code tattoo!!
Zifnab
@Sloth: Yeah, I heard on NPR he was already apologizing.
Seriously, please, wingers. Keep it up. Dropping a turd at a nationally televised event like this is definitely the path to victory in 2010.
Michael D.
@General Winfield Stuck: Like watching a hockey game! You go there watching a fight and. possibly, a hockey game will break out!
Brandon
Michael D. needs to read him some Yglesias to understand how Rep. Wilson put the cause of Presidential heckling back years, if not decades with his factually challenged outburst.
Michael D.
@Brandon: I actually agree with Yglesias. I wasn’t saying Wilson helped the process. I’m saying heckling is good. I don’t need Yglesias to do that thinking for me.
ItAintEazy
@Ash:
Well, hopefully there won’t be any Independent Party asshole spoiler candidate.
Mike P
@John Cole: I like how James finds the Politifact explanation “unpersuasive”. Um, ok. His fall back is kind of: “Well, we cover illegals anyway because of emergency rooms.” Well, yeah…and that’s been going on w/Dems and Republicans because we think people in dire need should have some sort of medical attention. So does James think we should stop that? If so, he should say so.
Brian J
I wonder if I’m already on some list somewhere. During my senior year of college, I took a class to learn more about Islam. When it came time to write a big paper, I took out multiple copies of the Koran from the library, along with many other books about it. At the same time, although completely unrelated to the paper, I was visiting several sites critical of the administration, but none were really extreme. Still, I’ve always laughed at the notion that I’d be on some sort of terrorist watch list.
donovong
@Sanka: Your comments here are much like the product whose name you have usurped – cheap, tasteless, watery bullshit made up as a poor imitation of a real product. Of course, as a result, I suspect a Brick Oven Bill connection.
Sloth
Wilson also reframed the conversation, and in a very interesting way. We know that he was moved to call a lie coverage of Illegal Aliens, so clearly the republicans think that the bill will cover illegal aliens.
But, apparently, they agree that the insurance companies are evil bastards, that our healthcare system is a national disgrace and that we need to fix it right away.
Good on ya, Joe. We agree on many points.
Comrade Mary
You’re talking about Question Period/Prime Minister’s Questions, which is a special period put aside for the PM to, you know, TAKE QUESTIONS and hold his/her own against the Loyal Opposition. This is not the same situation as delivering a freakin’ speech outlining policy.
But in the Parliamentary system, you cannot call another member a liar. It has also been established in various parliaments that you cannot call someone an evil genius, a trained seal, a blatherskite, or a papish bigot, nor can you claim that they display the energy of a tired snail returning home from a funeral, nor can you exhort them to 仆街.
That’s why such outbursts are called unparliamentary language. These rules still apply during Prime Minister’s Questions and Question Period. (Of course, you can still imply that someone is a liar, but it’s generally done with a little more finesse.)
Heckling is what an asshole in a weak position does. Pointed questions, some anger, some finessed insults that don’t slip into the realm of unparliamentary language is NOT the same as heckling.
Mike P
@Michael D.:
Ask an ye shall receive:
MEMBERS MUST:
* Address themselves solely and directly to the Chair. They may not address other Members, individuals in the gallery, or persons who might be observing through the media.
* Refer to Members by state, not by name.
* Avoid characterizing another Member’s personal intent or motives and discussing personalities.
* Refrain from speaking disrespectfully of the Speaker, other Members, the President or Vice President.
* Refrain from referring to the official conduct of other Members where such conduct is not under consideration by way of a report of the Committee on Standards of Official Conduct or as a question of the privilege of the House.
* Refrain from referring to the specific votes of particular Senators.
* Refrain from using profane or vulgar language.
* Avoid walking in the well when a Member is speaking.
* Ensure that all handouts distributed on the floor or adjacent rooms comport with the rules of propriety for spoken words, and that all handouts bear the name of the authorizing Member.
* Refrain from eating, smoking, or using electronic equipment, including cellular phones or lap top computers, on the floor.
* Wear appropriate business attire.
NOTE — Debate which violates the rules of decorum may result in a Member’s words being taken down.
Also, this:
Categories of Unparliamentary Speech
* Defaming or degrading the House
* Criticism of the Speaker’s personal conduct
* Impugning the motives of another Member
* Charging falsehood or deception
* Claiming lack of intelligence or knowledge
* References to race, creed, or prejudice
* Charges related to loyalty or patriotism
ItAintEazy
@Morbo:
Silly person, the illegals already have a public option.
ppcli
@Scruffy McSnufflepuss:
I dunno. I think most people regard the guy who beat Sumner half to death as an asshole too.
tc125231
@arguingwithsignposts: Wjy do you respect him? –Because he has a mind made of oatmeal?
People who routinely make BS comments do not deserve respect.
Mike P
Bad second link above. It goes to this, the Republican’s committee on rules.
ppcli
@ppcli:
Sorry – I hit “enter” before I added “and worthy of censure too.”
Morbo
@Mike P: This is the driver’s license B.S. all over again. We’re going to have to watch a massive hissy fit over illegals maybe or maybe not getting coverage. It’ll all be fact free knee jerk and without any consideration of whether or not it would actually save the country money to insure illegal immigrants. I’m not saying it would, but I would be interested to see a CBO report or something on the issue.
Ash Can
Of course it’s understandable. Wilson is an asshole. What’s not to understand?
Sheesh. I too would have expected better from James Joyner. I remember from my time in DC, though, that the folks in the political circles there get the vapors over things that the rest of us don’t even blink at.
Jason
@Skepticat:
The President did exactly that, short of the request. I kind of wish he had shouted back “Judas!” – but I think the daggers were appropriate, considering the situation.
Civility and propriety are not just broad generalizations that apply in all cases. JC understands that calling Joyner a “douche” or whatever is a personal statement, and it might be; but the varieties of communication we’re talking about here involve – require – the creation of personas. Seemed to be that Obama understood his station and office, and acted accordingly.
I’ll even go one farther: without Wilson’s heckle, the speech would’ve been mediocre. I thought his delivery in the beginning was arhythmic and nervous; he was just getting into a powerful voice (he does ethical indignation very well) when Wilson just made a huge strategic error if he really believed what he said. After that, Obama owned.
I think part of the problem is not that Wilson disrupted ceremony – like JC, I’m a big fan of British gov’t procedure – but that he had no standing, either in fact or in office. If it were McCain, or McConnell, or a recognizable face in either party, that would have been some shit. If there were significant ethical value to his claim (if, say, Obama were Bush), then that would’ve been some shit. But he was just some small-time dweeb off-camera losing control of his professionalism. And he got swatted away like a gnat.
August J. Pollak
Holy balls:
I have no idea if this is parody or not.
Mike P
@Morbo: Indeed. I think the thing that bothers me is that James seems to act like the policy of attending to anyone who shows up at the emergency room just started when Hussien X Obama Stalin took office. Give me a break.
ppcli
@Michael D.:
a) Question period is not the same as a speech from the throne. Heckling during the latter is a serious breach of decorum.
b) Many Canadians feel that the house’s behaviour during Question Period is a national embarrassment. I’m often one of them, though some of the time I find it entertaining. Like in the good old days of “fuddle duddle”.
Jason
@August J. Pollak: I saw that too. I’ve never felt so sorry for someone in my life.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
@Ash:
“There’s a time and a place to be an asshole. I have no problem with them bitching at each other on the floor of the senate when talking about legislation, or when they pass each other on the street. But a joint address to Congress, that’s being nationally televised, is not the time or place.”
Maybe. I don’t feel that way, though. In fact, I’d feel like a hypocrite if I criticized Wilson too much. I think the Democrats should’ve done what he did to Obama every single time Bush tried to make a speech in front of them. I think they should’ve booed him every speech, called him usurper, shouted about tyranny, and walked out. Every speech. I think it would’ve impressed Americans more than the namby-pamby mealy-mouthed loyal opposition schtick. Would certainly look better in hindsight.
gnomedad
Clearly, you should not receive emergency room treatment unless you have an official citizenship tattoo on your forehead. Something like the number of letters in each name “Ronald Wilson Reagan” should do nicely.
tc125231
@Napoleon: Correct. Why is that surprising? He clearly derives his living by catering to the wealthy GOP right.
I refer you to Sinclair’s law: “When a man’s paycheck depends on his not understanding something, you can depend upon his not understanding it.”
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
@ppcli:
“I dunno. I think most people regard the guy who beat Sumner half to death as an asshole too.”
He certainly was. A slaving asshole at that. But my point is that it’s been much worse in the past.
Mike P
In other news, apparently Joe Scarborough is embracing the “party of no” moniker.
Chad N Freude
@linda: You forgot to mention the illegal maids and gardeners who carry untreated tuberculosis into the homes of the wealthy Republicans who hire them.
ppcli
@gnomedad:
Good one. I’ll have to use that frequently with my wingnut acquaintances.
tc125231
@General Winfield Stuck: Who says we’re liberals? Personally, what I am is not stupid. You hardly have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that the GOP and the so-called conservative movement plan no good for the average American.
Not to mention that they are lying sacks of shite who worship only money.
Drive the money changers from the temple.
jurassicpork
Liar, Liar, starring Rep. Joe Wilson (R-BC/BS).
The Grand Panjandrum
Heckling is fine by me. Obama did a good job of the carrot and stick approach all in one speech. Wilson let his emotions get out of control. So what. The President looked, well–Presidential, and the Republicans, i.e. Wilson, looked like a bunch of school kids who couldn’t wait for the recess bell to ring.
The speech was meant for the people sitting in those seats and from what I’ve read it sounds like he’s moving some of the Blue Dogs in the right direction. Its been pretty obvious for some time that most Republicans are not going to budge so I’ll be curious to see what those very few serious Republicans and the Blue Dogs do as this process moves forward.
BTW if you think Wilson will be censured by the House, think again. IIRC a censure vote, to be passed, requires at least one vote member of the members own party. That ain’t very likely.
ironranger
@Demo Woman:
I have just been thinking about this same thing lately. I would ask people who are anti-choice if they know if their health insurance companies pay for abortions (I bet this hasn’t even occurred to them) & if so, why aren’t they looking for a plan that doesn’t.
El Cid
President Lindsay Graham of South Carolina also feels that while Wilson’s outburst was “inappropriate”, Obama’s speech was “beneath the dignity of his office”, by which he means that Obama is a total let-down for the Confederacy.
arguingwithsignposts
@El Cid:
“beneath the dignity of his office…” Ha! Oh, republicans. Have you no shame?
Napoleon
@El Cid:
I heard that A-hole on NPR this morning whining about the speach. What a first class bozo.
Ash Can
@El Cid: I saw that too. That wasn’t a dog whistle, it was a tornado siren.
CalD
Yeah. Shame on the President for suggesting such a thing about his dishonest and ill-intentioned opponents.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
@Michael D.:
Good, because you suck. DougJ is so much better than you that it’s hard to believe someone might have cared what you thought enough to provide you a venue to share it.
And aren’t you the alcoholic who always ends up in the drunk tank after being shot at by the cops?
Michael D was nothing more than a poor man’s Andrew Sullivan. And Sullivan is one of the biggest douchebags on the face of the earth.
Heckling is teh awesome!
RedKitten
@ppcli:
Yep — I also find the behaviour during Question Period to be beyond infantile. If they could restrain themselves to brief, pointed remarks, intended to make an actual point, that’d be great. However, more often than not, they’re simply shouting each other down so that nobody can get a word in edgewise. I was once present at a session of the Nova Scotia Legislature, and saw much of the same behaviour, and was so disgusted to see my tax dollars paying for the salaries of boorish children that I walked out and later wrote a letter to the local paper about it.
Heckling can be a useful tool. I used it occasionally when on the debate team in high school, to point out an inaccuracy in someone’s argument. (Fun example: we were debating whether cross-border shopping was an anti-patriotic act, and my opponent was extolling the virtues of shopping in the U.S., backing up his argument by talking about all of the brands one can find there as opposed to here. This would have been fine, except that he used Ralph Lauren as his example — a brand that is very commonly found here. I heckled with “Where the heck have YOU been shopping?” Poor bastard stuttered and stammered through the rest of his remarks.) What Wilson did wasn’t effective heckling at all — it was just childish and rude.
General Winfield Stuck
I heard several pundits yesterday afternoon state that Obama’s goal should be to sound like the adult in the room. Maybe we should thank Mr. Wilson for the assist.
kth
@August J. Pollak: “Triumph” is a parody troll at OTB, and a pretty good one at that. His satire is directed more at Joyner’s utterly cretinous peanut gallery, rather than at the blog itself, which despite this egregious take isn’t bad for a righty blog.
Bad Horse's Filly
@Shawn in ShowMe: What you said.
Mike P
I wonder if this is good enough for James.
slag
If Obama had never run for office in the first place, Republicans wouldn’t now be forced to lie about his health care proposals. So, I think it’s fair that he share at least some of the blame.
Beyond that, think of all the lying about Obama we could have been spared if he’d never been born in the first place. Damn Kenyan terrorist government…if only they hadn’t filled out the short form either, none of this would be happening.
binzinerator
@Michael D.:
As others have noted, there is a time and place for that. This was an address, an important one.
Some of the people here don’t have a problem with it, and cite the British model. Well we don’t do the British system. And as someone else noted:
“Question Period .. is a special period put aside for the PM to, you know, TAKE QUESTIONS and hold his/her own against the Loyal Opposition.”
In other words, even in that system there is a time and place for that.
There is a different decorum for a presidential address.
If it was acceptable to yell whenever the president said something in an address someone didn’t agree, we’d never get to hear what the president had to say.
And if you still think people ought to do this in these situations, then where do you draw the line?
Just look at the teabaggers in the the town halls — what was the result there? These people no doubt will defend that anti-democratic bullshit by saying exactly what you said: Why should we shut up and respectfully listen to crap we don’t agree with?
You really want dozens of people jumping up and shrieking “Where’s the vault copy?” during the next state of the union address?
Agreeing to not interfere with or shout over important state communications is absolutely necessary to make a democracy work. We may despise what the president is saying but we as a nation need to hear it.
Seanly
@Bob In Pacifica:
The problem is that it was a very bad breach of etiquette. Wilson yelling “I love you, man” would have been almost as bad. Even the occassional low boo or his
Overall, the Republicans looked pretty pouty. They also seemed to be out-numbered which is a good thing.
mcc
If you point out that people have been lying about death panels for the last few months, you are “poisoning the well.”
Sarah Palin agrees
SiubhanDuinne
Joe Wilson’s real name is Addison Graves Wilson.
There is an Addison’s Disease.
There is a Graves Disease.
There is a Wilson’s Disease.
Just saying.
Jason
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford:
Best heckle ever:
[Mac tells Dave his monitor’s out]
Dave: I say! Witness! Mac’s monitor has joined the realm of the unknown!
Audience guy: wow, is that, like, Nietzsche or something?
Dave [drunkenly]: Yeah, that’s…that’s like Neetsh-ja. That’s like I neetsh-ja MOUTH full of my COCK
The Populist
“Well we don’t do the British system. ”
Yep, isn’t it the righties who whine and cry when a judge cites a foreign decision or when some European country criticizes us? Now it’s okay to BE LIKE those countries when it suits their needs.
Please stop the insanity and hypocrisy, I want to get off!
IndieTarheel
@El Cid: Shorter Graham:”Who does that boy think he IS?”