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You are here: Home / Politics / Sunday Lexicon Thread

Sunday Lexicon Thread

by Tim F|  September 27, 20092:00 pm| 189 Comments

This post is in: Politics, Site Maintenance

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It seemed like a good idea to add basic terms like ‘liberal’ and ‘conservative’ to our growing word list, but I get stuck. First I checked Dictionary.com.

Liberal, adj.

1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

Conservative, adj.

1. disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.

That doesn’t really sound right, does it? The English language, like the Constitution (some would say), is a living thing. Practically nobody remembers anymore that Begging the Question exclusively means making an argument that takes its own conclusion for granted. Even Kevin Drum, who kept sniping from a tree in the Philippines decades after purists lost the war to preserve begging the question, eventually gave up in 2005.

The BJ lexicon should take common usage into account, but that doesn’t work here. With respect to common usage liberal and conservative have gone batshit insane. Conservative used to imply defending individual liberties against government interference. By that definition the ACLU is the most conservative nonprofit entity in America, and Glenn Greenwald, Joe Klein’s “civil liberties extremist”, counts as more conservative than practically anyone writing today. Yet for some reason nearly every American who calls himself ‘conservative’ hates Glenn Greenwald and despises the ACLU*. Conservative dogma also dictates resisting international adventures. Back when such things mattered, the Republican party tried to block the war against Hitler and it was two liberal Presidents (Kennedy and Johnson) who sent us to war in Vietnam. Today “conservatives” on FOX News sneer down their noses at anyone who disagrees with bombing and (this part particularly tickles traditional conservatives like Pat Buchanan and William F. Buckley) militarily occupying Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Burma, Venezuela and whoever else they hate today.

Some help here. We’re a political blog, so we need some definition for the central terms in American politics. Clearly Dictionary.com won’t do the job. For now I will just plug in a Barry Goldwater quote that I picked up from urbandictionary.com.

“Today’s so-called ‘conservatives’ don’t even know what the word means. They think I’ve turned liberal because I believe a woman has a right to an abortion. That’s a decision that’s up to the pregnant woman, not up to the pope or some do-gooders or the Religious Right. It’s not a conservative issue at all.” — Barry Goldwater

If you think that you can do better, have at it in the comments.

(*) Perfectly distilled by a brief exchange that I had with Ed Morrissey in the comments of this thread.

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Reader Interactions

189Comments

  1. 1.

    Davis X. Machina

    September 27, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    Eight years ago, Eric Alterman defined ‘liberal’ as ‘not obviously insane’.

    Truer than it ever was.

  2. 2.

    Guster

    September 27, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    Liberal: see Moderate.
    Conservative: see Authoritarian.

  3. 3.

    Skepticat

    September 27, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    Why don’t you tackle something that’s a little easier? Say, health care reform or getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan. If you start adding “basic terms,” the lexicon is going to be the digital version of War and Peace.

  4. 4.

    Martin

    September 27, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    Conservative: Shut up, that’s why.

    That’s all I’ve got. The word really has no meaning that I can discern.

  5. 5.

    linda

    September 27, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    nyt breaking that william safire has died.
    hmmm, last week kristol … does the ‘dying in threes’ include conservative ideologues?

  6. 6.

    El Cruzado

    September 27, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    Conservative: Anything that self-proclaimed conservatives like or are in favor of.
    Liberal: Anything that self-proclaimed conservatives dislike or are against.

    At least it’s the definitions that have helped me understand US politics best.

  7. 7.

    Llelldorin

    September 27, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    In modern American terms:

    Liberal — Someone who believes in one of the core beliefs of the US Democratic Party: Government noninterference in “personal” affairs (marriage, medical decisions, abortion, and sexual life), Government financial assistance in expensive but socially beneficial endeavors like education and medical care, and government regulation of business (esp. large business and corporations). Note that belief in any of these tenants suffices: a socially conservative politician bent on economic deregulation is considered a “liberal” if they support public health care and education grants.

    Moderate — Someone who doesn’t believe in any of the core principles of the Democratic Party, but nonetheless believes that Conservatives are barking mad. Generally found within the Democratic Party, despite their differences on every policy issue with Liberals.

    Conservative — Someone who believes that the purpose of government is entirely to provide military, police, and to enforce “traditional” social strictures. Conservatives generally oppose abortion, no-fault divorce, aid to women and minorities, and any regulation of the business world.

  8. 8.

    Polish the Guillotines

    September 27, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    Conservative — Anyone who believes the United States of America was placed on this Earth by the baby Jesus to bring free markets, handguns, and bibles to every dog-eating commie backwater on the planet.

    Liberal — Anyone with political leanings to the left of the John Birch Society, or any self-identified Conservative who has embraced reality, facts, or logic.

  9. 9.

    c u n d gulag

    September 27, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    Conservative: Anything proposed by anyone other than a fellow Republican – Whatever it is, I’m against it!*

    *The late, great Groucho Marx.

  10. 10.

    BethanyAnne

    September 27, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    To me, I think a liberal is someone who thinks that taxes can be a reasonable way to pay for services, and a conservative believes that to never be the case.

  11. 11.

    Warren Terra

    September 27, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    I don’t know the attribution, but one pithy description of the typical American Liberal: Someone unwilling to take their own side in an argument.

    Was very true for a long time, hopefully less so now.

  12. 12.

    Brick Oven Bill

    September 27, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    The word ‘Liberal’ has been stolen by a bunch of power-hungry greed-mongers who would silence and subjugate the American population if only they could. Their strategy to seize this power is by widening and dumbing down the electorate to the point where elected officials no longer have to answer to engaged and educated Citizens. SAT scores peaked in 1963. Wealth has steadily concentrated since then.

    The true definition of Liberal is the embrace of the Seven Liberal Arts; Grammar, Rhetoric, Logic, Arithmetic, Geometry, Music, and Astronomy. These are the Arts that freed men’s minds from the bonds of the Catholic Church. In order for them to be effective, a free exchange of ideas must be allowed.

    In modern usage, the word ‘Liberal’ is synonymous with ‘greed’, both among those using the system to concentrate power, and among those using the system to obtain wealth not earned through work.

    The word ‘Conservative’, and this just happened in the last year, has become synonymous with a strict constructionist view of the Constitution, which is a true Liberal document and philosophy.

  13. 13.

    BethanyAnne

    September 27, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    Ok, so I was looking at my definition, and laughing. The key part of it is “to me”. That’s the bit that makes my definition a liberal one. A conservative would never say what they believe to be true, they’d just tell you what’s true. It reminded me of Robert Frost’s definition “A liberal is one too broadminded to take his own side in a debate”.

    :-)

  14. 14.

    Keith

    September 27, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    Conversatives – What Republicans proudly claim to be
    Liberals – What Democrats are afraid to be

  15. 15.

    JGabriel

    September 27, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    Moderate – someone who gets all their news from network television.

    Conservative – pro-war nationalists who become authoritarian when one of their own is in charge, and otherwise rebel against the state

    Liberal – everyone else

    .

  16. 16.

    Polish the Guillotines

    September 27, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    @Brick Oven Bill: Yes, BOB, we all know how much you love pie.

  17. 17.

    Warren Terra

    September 27, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    And definition of Conservatism must include some version of the No True Scotsman argument, i.e. that Conservatism cannot fail, it can only be failed; any failures weren’t really conservatives.

  18. 18.

    Chuck

    September 27, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    Conservatism: A philosophy or system of government that is marked by stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized government usually headed by a dictator, and often a policy of belligerent nationalism.

    Oh sorry, that’s the dictionary definition of Fascism.

  19. 19.

    Surreal American

    September 27, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    The word ‘Liberal’ has been stolen by a bunch of power-hungry greed-mongers who would silence and subjugate the American population if only they could. Their strategy to seize this power is by widening and dumbing down the electorate to the point where elected officials no longer have to answer to engaged and educated Citizens.

    You explained the GOP playbook from 1980 to 2008 better than I could have. I misjudged you, BOB

  20. 20.

    TJ

    September 27, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    I worry that the need for a lexicon points to a tendency we see on the side of the crazies–getting too insular (reducing huge stories/arguments to slogans or even single words)…

  21. 21.

    Brick Oven Bill

    September 27, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    Modern Liberalism can probably best be defined as:

    ‘The use of State power to impose Artificial Law and an open exchange of ideas.’

  22. 22.

    Xecky Gilchrist

    September 27, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    @El Cruzado: You’ve got it how I see it. My version is:

    Conservative = not-liberal.

    Liberal = whatever people to whom it is important to be not-liberal say it is.

  23. 23.

    calling all toasters

    September 27, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    Conservatism: A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion

    Oh, wait, that’s Robert O. Paxson’s definition of fascism. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.

  24. 24.

    Warren Terra

    September 27, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    For those of you too sensible to read his blatherings, how perfect is it that BOB explicitly states that Conservatism is reborn, and its standards shouldn’t be applied to past exemplars?

  25. 25.

    Brick Oven Bill

    September 27, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    Correction:

    ‘The use of State power to impose Artificial Law and prevent the open exchange of ideas.’

  26. 26.

    Simonee

    September 27, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    @Polish the Guillotines:

    Conservative—Anyone who believes the United States of America was placed on this Earth by the baby Jesus to bring free markets, handguns, and bibles to every dog-eating commie backwater on the planet.

    Liberal—Anyone with political leanings to the left of the John Birch Society, or any self-identified Conservative who has embraced reality, facts, or logic.

    THIS. Any definition of liberal/conservative these days must mention the role of logic and facts.

  27. 27.

    Stooleo

    September 27, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    Liberal= Secretly happy that Bill Safire has died but too polite to say so.

    Conservative= any one who threatens death to anyone who criticizes Bill Safire.

  28. 28.

    calling all toasters

    September 27, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    BOB’s “corrections” make even less sense than his original gibberish.

  29. 29.

    El Tiburon

    September 27, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    I think it’s important to distinguish today’s conservative as a special hybrid of religious zealots and neocons along with xenophobic extremists.

    It’s not really fair or applicable to even compare ‘liberal’ with ‘conservative’ today. Today’s so-called conservative is so far out of the mainstream as to make all comparisons moot.

    Now, comparing a liberal with a moderate (moderate being more akin to a traditional conservative) is worthwhile.

    Comparing TODAY’s conservative to a liberal is like comparing a creationist to those of us who believe in science.

    Also, a plurality of Americans, regardless of their political affiliation, believe in core liberal policies, such as universal health care, etc.

  30. 30.

    JGabriel

    September 27, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    Modern Liberalism can probably best be defined as: ‘The use of State power to impose … an open exchange of ideas.’

    An open exchange of ideas? My god, that’s so … evil.

    .

  31. 31.

    Lesley

    September 27, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    A couple of more items for the lexicon:

    IGMFU: I GOT MINE, FUCK YOU.


    Michelle Malkin Math

  32. 32.

    Graeme

    September 27, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    If I had to define American Conservatism, I would do so as follows:

    “My country, my party, my politicians, and my hobbies are beyond reproach. If you disagree, your motives and behavior make me sick! Traitor!”

    I wish there were more to it than that, but it seems to be all there is.

  33. 33.

    Surreal American

    September 27, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    @Stooleo:

    While I harbor no affection for any Nixon flunky, I wonder if Safire will end up being labeled a RINO. As in one of those Republicans who fall short of the Sarah Palin standard because he cared about political language.

  34. 34.

    JGabriel

    September 27, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    @Stooleo:

    Liberal= Secretly happy that Bill Safire has died but too polite to say so.

    I am a liberal who can honestly say I take no pleasure in Safire’s passing. Safire could often be a startlingly good reporter (even Molly Ivins admired him), for someone with no experience or training.

    Though he definitely lost his way in the Bush years.

    .

  35. 35.

    Charity

    September 27, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    I take no pleasure in anyone’s dying. I didn’t even say a thing when Robert Novak died apart from “Oh, that’s too bad.”

  36. 36.

    Karmakin

    September 27, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    Actually it’s pretty simple.

    Liberal:Someone who believes that progress can made in making our society a more fair and just place.

    Conservative:Someone who is determined to stop liberals at any cost.

  37. 37.

    wasabi gasp

    September 27, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    Conservative: an ornately decorated gift bag for when you want that thoughtful doorstep-dropped flaming bag o’ shit to say “you care.”

  38. 38.

    gnomedad

    September 27, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    I used to think BOB at least practiced his own brand of insanity. Apparently, not even that.

  39. 39.

    Common Sense

    September 27, 2009 at 3:01 pm

    William Safire just died?

    He’s gonna miss the pennant race.

  40. 40.

    Surreal American

    September 27, 2009 at 3:01 pm

    @wasabi gasp:

    I’d say FTW at this point, but alas they don’t bother to decorate the bag anymore.

  41. 41.

    Common Sense

    September 27, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    I think I will only discuss baseball when referring to Safire (or George Will when he passes). I am a decent person.

  42. 42.

    Demo Woman

    September 27, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    @JGabriel: His On Languagecolumn in the Sunday Magazine section was always worth a read.
    Now I guess it’s time to go back to work on the lexicon.

  43. 43.

    Ivan Ivanovich Renko

    September 27, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    Really, today’s ‘conservatives’ are the end product of the Republican Southern Strategy.

    Conservative used to imply defending individual liberties against government interference.

    Unless they’re black people seeking things like, oh, the vote; or the right to live without hanging from a tree.

    Another solid conservative point of dogma was resisting international adventures.

    Unless, of course, the people to be bombed are black, or brown (and extra points if they’re not Christian.)

    “Today’s so-called ‘conservatives’ don’t even know what the word means. They think I’ve turned liberal because I believe a woman has a right to an abortion. That’s a decision that’s up to the pregnant woman, not up to the pope or some do-gooders or the Religious Right. It’s not a conservative issue at all.”—Barry Goldwater

    That’s because it has to do with preserving the rights of women.

    Today’s conservatives are nothing more than the defenders of white male supremacy and white male privilege.

  44. 44.

    Boston Lib

    September 27, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    Hey, why reinvent the wheel? Let’s just adopt the definitions from conservapedia.com:

    A conservative adheres to principles of limited government, personal responsibility and moral values, agreeing with George Washington’s Farewell Address that “religion and morality are indispensable supports” to political prosperity.

    The sine qua non of a conservative is someone who rises above his personal self-interest and promotes moral and economic values beneficial to all. Alternatively, a conservative is willing to learn and advocate the insights of economics and the morality of the Bible for the benefit of all.

    A liberal (also leftist) is someone who rejects logical and biblical standards, often for self-centered reasons. There are no coherent liberal standards; often a liberal is merely someone who craves attention, and who uses many words to say nothing. Liberalism began as a movement for individual liberties, but today is increasingly statist, and in Europe even socialistic.

  45. 45.

    Demo Woman

    September 27, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    @wasabi gasp: That’s the best definition so far for the Republican version of conservatism.

  46. 46.

    gnomedad

    September 27, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    conservative: nostalgic authoritarian plutocrat
    liberal: not conservative

  47. 47.

    Stooleo

    September 27, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    JGabriel

    Though he definitely lost his way in the Bush years.

    Yeah, he and bunch of other so called thoughtful conservatives who went utterly fucking batshit insane after 9/11, which allowed Bush and the neocons to get a pass on every stupid thing they wanted.

  48. 48.

    Bill Jones

    September 27, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    Conservative: One who believes that Government functions should be restricted to Murdering, Torturing or throwing people in Cages.

  49. 49.

    Scott H

    September 27, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    I have had to stop trying to reclaim or rehabilitate the term ‘conservative’ – we are all librulz now. Suggested synonyms: authoritarian, reactionary, demagogic.

  50. 50.

    kth

    September 27, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    Conservative–believer in the use of force to resolve foreign and domestic disputes, low taxes, and male-centric gender roles (in their words, “strong military, law and order, low taxes, family values”). Origin obscure.

    Liberal–mainly a believer in government as a force for good in the lives of common folk. Archaic usage: believer in individual liberty as the highest good, vestigially referenced in the phrase “classical liberal”.

  51. 51.

    Dustin

    September 27, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    Personally I’m leaning towards a combination of @22 and @7.

    We play around about the similarities between the modern conservative movement and fascism, but it’s not really a laughing matter. The reason modern conservatives seem like they’ve fallen off the right side of the cliff is because they’ve become fascist. It may not be the classic Italian model because it’s genesis is a result of GOP degeneration, but the end result is the same.

    And I may be too young to know who Safire is but if he’s anything like the remainder of his generation of pundits I am glad he’s dead. It can’t happen fast enough. My general philosophy is that any pundit who was around in the time of Nixon is permanently trapped in the classic DFH vs Vietnam era. They have, and continue to, grossly warp modern American political discourse and we’ll be better off when their influence finally dies away completely.

  52. 52.

    Free At Last

    September 27, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    @Demo Woman:

    Agree with you on his column. Thus I always believed him to be a bit more connected to reality than other neocons. But when he became obsessed with the Atta-Iraqi diplomat meeting in Prague, insisting until the end that it really occurred, I decided he was only marginally better than the rest of them. He still gets my RIP wishes.

  53. 53.

    Surreal American

    September 27, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    Sam Tannenhaus hit the nail on the head when he called members of the modern conservative movement revanchists:

    http://www.amazon.com/Death-Conservatism-Sam-Tanenhaus/dp/1400068843

    Plus I like the word revanchism because it’s elitist-sounding and based on the French word revanche, meaning revenge. So using an elitist-Frenchie term to describe winguts adds further insult to injury.

  54. 54.

    Fester Addams

    September 27, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    Conservative means the same thing it always has–supportive of policies that favor an aristocracy. That American conservatives are able to make use of the racists, theocrats. gun-fetishers and flat-earthers doesn’t change that.

  55. 55.

    Brick Oven Bill

    September 27, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    Ivan Ivanovich Renko says:

    “White male privilege”

    Meaning he watches too much TV, as this is a gross conceptual error. The reality is that the Artificial Law being imposed upon the population by Liberalism has quite the opposite effect. Consider the SAT-Income data. Assuming intelligence is inherited, which is a solid assumption unless you are a Creationist, a white person with a 1000 SAT score will make around $45k/yr.

    In contrast, a black person with a 1000 SAT score will make over $200k/yr. If one believes in meritocracy, it is easy to judge where the privilege lies in this society. In a free-market, information-based society, governed by Natural Law, people with similar intellects would earn similar incomes.

    Liberalism and its associated Artificial Law seeks to protect the Kennedys and the Bushes from the pre-wealth Clintons. They judge the Obamas to not be threatening.

  56. 56.

    BR

    September 27, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    @Keith:

    Conservatives – What Republicans proudly claim to be
    Liberals – What Democrats are afraid to be

    This.

  57. 57.

    Tim F.

    September 27, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    @Brick Oven Bill: Please define Artificial Law. I don’t think that anyone has any idea what you are talking about.

  58. 58.

    Joey Maloney

    September 27, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    The first thing that came into my mind was Eric Alterman’s definition, but I see Davis X. beat me to it in the very first comment. I’d go with that one, if we’re taking a vote or anything.

  59. 59.

    Demo Woman

    September 27, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    @Brick Oven Bill: Since trolls live under bridges, next time we have a major rain event; I’ll send you a list of bridges that are safe for trolls.

  60. 60.

    Shell

    September 27, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    Howz about…from

    ‘Eliminationism’, an ideology rejecting dialogue and debate in favor of the pursuit of outright elimination of the opposing side, either through suppression, exile, and eviction, or extermination.

    I.e., 90% of RW talk radio

  61. 61.

    zed

    September 27, 2009 at 3:32 pm

    I suggest we just refer to both as archaic terms used in modern times mostly in the pejorative.

  62. 62.

    calling all toasters

    September 27, 2009 at 3:32 pm

    @Tim F.: I got you covered– Artificial Law is all that stuff that isn’t Social Darwinism.

  63. 63.

    Aaron

    September 27, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    Progressive: one who tries to implement liberal ideas and policies.

    Liberal: One who uses the Liberal Analysis in addressing policy.

    Liberal Analysis: To review a situation/policy as if new, in light of current beliefs, science, logic and reason in order to find the best policy solutions.

    Conservative: one who believes in maintaining things as they are and maintaining the status quo.

    For example: Once upon a time a bunch of guy were pissed. They were ruled by a guy named George, who lived in a place called England. And they started to realize that not having a voice in their own government or how things were being run was ‘problematic’. Using the liberal analysis, they determined that the best policy would be to form their own country called, the united states. We call these liberals the “founding fathers”. And we had a name for those Conservatives who liked the status quo, and wanted to keep the US as an English colony. We called them “Torries”.

  64. 64.

    Surreal American

    September 27, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    @Tim F.:

    This is different from any other time…how?

  65. 65.

    RSA

    September 27, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    It’s tempting to try to come up with a single, overarching definition for “conservative” (I think “liberal” would be easier, but I’m too close to judge), but I think there are too many disparate groups who simply take the same side out of history and inertia rather than principle. That is, it’s going to be easier to define conservatives by extension (i.e., a list of who’s conservative) rather than by intension (i.e., some properties they all share that aren’t completely ad hoc). The sets below overlap a bit, but I can’t think of anything that pulls them all together except voting Republican.

    Movement conservatives (e.g., Karl Rove–does he have any principles?).
    Neoconservatives (e.g. Charles Krauthammer).
    Fundamentalist Christian conservatives (e.g. Pat Robertson).
    Fiscal conservatives (e.g. Michael Bloomberg).
    Libertarian conservatives (e.g. Ron Paul).
    Military adventurers (e.g. John McCain).
    Batshit crazy people (e.g. Glenn Beck).

    Okay, they’re not as separate as I’d thought they’d be, but still…

  66. 66.

    smiley

    September 27, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    Practically nobody remembers anymore that Begging the Question exclusively means making an argument that takes its own conclusion for granted.

    Even Merriam-Webster includes both definitions now:

    beg the question 1 : to pass over or ignore a question by assuming it to be established or settled
    2 : to elicit a question logically as a reaction or response

  67. 67.

    matoko_chan

    September 27, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    lol

    conservative– a republican who is deperately trying to scrape the bushcheney off their shoe when no one is looking.

    that’s the 411.

  68. 68.

    Davis X. Machina

    September 27, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    @ joey maloney. I bookmarked it years ago. I think it may be the oldest bookmark I have on Firefox, originally imported from a late-ish version of Mozilla.

    The interesting thing is that the malevolent effect of Fox on the media environment that Alterman discusses was evident way back then, pre-9/11. Historians will find upon mature reflection that the 2000 election, not 9/11, was the blow from from which the Republic did not recover, or only barely recovered from.

  69. 69.

    Brian W.

    September 27, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” John Kenneth Galbraith

  70. 70.

    Matt

    September 27, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    Conservative: 1. The ability to totally forget everything you just argued as being convincingly necessary after the ensuing election. 2. A panacea to all problems for people who believe that their ‘movement conservatism’ has gone astray.
    3. A combination of 1950/60s American military hegemony, 17th Century Calvinism, and Medieval Anti-Intellectualism.

    Liberal: 1. The inner-fight between the need for personal independence in all manners, and the understanding that we are all interconnected and that to have freedom some basic needs must be met. 2. to be outside the central American Political System 3. Gay Fascist Communists ascribing to Feminism, Atheism, Nihilism, and the indoctrination of children for the purposes of subjecting white people. Most likely doesn’t work and steals for a living.

  71. 71.

    Surreal American

    September 27, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    @Shell:

    Eliminationism aptly describes the fondest desires of certain revanchists. However it is an inadequate term, practically speaking. Unless I completely missed the fact that 1994 Rwandan-style hate radio is being broadcast in this nation now:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/374375.stm

  72. 72.

    Napoleon

    September 27, 2009 at 3:43 pm

    @Dustin:

    Dustin said: “My general philosophy is that any pundit who was around in the time of Nixon . . . ”

    Hell, he worked for Nixon as a speechwriter (so did Ben Stein).

  73. 73.

    Brick Oven Bill

    September 27, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    Artificial Law is the opposite of Natural Law, which is an appreciation of the nature of the world around us as it exists, and as it affects society. James Madison touches on Natural Law in Federalist 10:

    “The diversity in the faculties of men, from which the rights of property originate, is not less an insuperable obstacle to a uniformity of interests.”

    The diversity in the faculties of men is rooted in nature. Jefferson discusses it in this letter to Adams:

    “I agree with you that there is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are virtue and talents. Formerly, bodily powers gave place among the aristoi [aristocrats]. But since the invention of gunpowder has armed the weak as well as the strong with missile death, bodily strength, like beauty, good humor, politeness, and other accomplishments, has become but an auxiliary ground for distinction. There is also an artificial aristocracy, founded on wealth and birth, without either virtue or talents; for with these it would belong to the first class. The natural aristocracy I consider as the most precious gift of nature, for the instruction, the trusts, and government of society.”

  74. 74.

    Linkmeister

    September 27, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    a white person with a 1000 SAT score will make around $45k/yr.

    In contrast, a black person with a 1000 SAT score will make over $200k/yr

    Er, prove it.

  75. 75.

    Linkmeister

    September 27, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    Frackin’ blockquote. “In contrast” et. seq. should also be in quotes.

  76. 76.

    The Raven

    September 27, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    Liberal: Anyone who thinks that George Orwell’s 1984 is a warning.

    Conservative: Anyone who thinks that George Orwell’s 1984 is a blueprint for a desired future.

  77. 77.

    Nellcote

    September 27, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    What happens when ultra-religious neocon Michele Bachmann co-hosts a town-hall meeting with anti-authority libertarian Ron Paul? Wingnut worlds collide. Maureen O’Connor reports.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-09-26/the-craziest-town-hall-ever/

  78. 78.

    Ash Can

    September 27, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    Conservative (current definition): Of or belonging to an amalgamation of anti-tax zealots, anti-intellectuals, plutocrats, theocrats, racial and religious bigots, xenophobes, hawks, and misogynists, united by fear of government and/or their fellow man.

    Liberal: Anyone who disagrees with a conservative.

  79. 79.

    Deborah

    September 27, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    “Standing astride history yelling ‘Stop!’ ” is about as good as it gets this year.

    “Health reform? Stop!”
    “Why?”
    “Um, if we do anything, then maybe in the future there will be a public option, so we need to do nothing, forever.” ((c) Grassley)

    “If you like Medicare, why can’t we have that for everyone?”
    Angry old person: “Stop! That’s all there is to it!”

    Gay marriage is another one where history is sliding right under them while they yell.

    Teabaggers–the whole “he isn’t really legitimate” crowd comes under this subheading of “Stop!”

  80. 80.

    R-Jud

    September 27, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    @The Raven:

    Liberal: Anyone who thinks that George Orwell’s 1984 is a warning. Conservative: Anyone who thinks that George Orwell’s 1984 is a blueprint for a desired future.

    I vote for this one.

  81. 81.

    Brick Oven Bill

    September 27, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    2nd Table down on the right Linkmeister.

  82. 82.

    burnspbesq

    September 27, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    The dictionary definition of “conservative” stopped applying to the Republican Party sometime between 1958 and 1963. The Republican Party continued to describe itself as “conservative” because the American people wouldn’t have supported a party that candidly called itself what it was: racist, sexist, in favor of the establishment of a particularly nasty form of Christiantiy as the national religion, statist, opposed to fundamental civil liberties, against effective public education, against responsible stewardship of the environment, against public health, and in favor of extreme inequality in wealth and income.

  83. 83.

    Evan

    September 27, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    Liberals favor egalitarianism. Conservatives favor hierarchy.

    Jefferson put it this way:
    “Men by their constitutions are naturally divided into two parties: 1. Those who fear and distrust the people, and wish to draw all powers from them into the hands of the higher classes. 2. Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider them as the most honest and safe, although not the most wise depositary of the public interests. In every country these two parties exist, and in every one where they are free to think, speak, and write, they will declare themselves. Call them, therefore, Liberals and Serviles, Jacobins and Ultras, Whigs and Tories, Republicans and Federalists, Aristocrats and Democrats, or by whatever name you please, they are the same parties still and pursue the same object. The last one of Aristocrats and Democrats is the true one expressing the essence of all.” –letter to Henry Lee, 1824

    Conservatives are aristocrats–in the sense that they favor the idea of aristocracy, that is, not in the sense of being members of the aristocracy themselves. Conservatives prefer it when there is a clear hierarchy of status, privilege and power. They don’t insist on being privileged themselves (though they strongly prefer to have someone else be less privileged than they are), but they do insist that someone be privileged–someone they identify with. Equal opportunity makes them uncomfortable on a very deep level.

    Liberals are democrats in the sense Jefferson meant it: they believe no one is inherently better than anyone else.

    In any debate over policy, if there’s one side that will tend to maintain or increase the difference in privilege between two groups, and another side that will tend to decrease that difference, the first side will be the “conservative” one and the second will be the “liberal” one. I’ve never found a counterexample to this rule.

  84. 84.

    dmsilev

    September 27, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    @Boston Lib: It’s been a while since I last delved into the unintentional fount of amusement that is Conservapedia. Their Conservapedia Commandments are fun. A couple of them:

    4. When referencing dates based on the approximate birth of Jesus, give appropriate credit for the basis of the date (B.C. or A.D.). “BCE” and “CE” are unacceptable substitutes because they deny the historical basis.

    7. Unproductive activity, such as 90% talk page edits and only 10% quality edits to Conservapedia articles, may result in blocking of the account.[7] . Footnote [7] reads “The senseless changing of American to British spellings may result in blocking.” (bold in original).

    and their commenting policies:

    Posting of obscenity here is punishable by up to 10 years in jail under 18 USC § 1470. Vandalism is punishable up to 10 years in jail per 18 USC § 1030. Harassment is punishable by 2 years in jail per 47 USC § 223. The IP addresses of vandals will be reported to authorities. That includes your employer and your local prosecutor.

    Can’t you imagine some local DA getting complaint letters because someone offended their sensitive feelings?

    -dms

  85. 85.

    2th&nayle

    September 27, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    Nixon speechwriter William Safire has died at the age of 79.

  86. 86.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    September 27, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    I don’t know about liberal and conservative, but I like this definition of “Democrats”:

    The majority party, currently hoping to take control of Congress from the minority Republicans in 2010.

    http://www.facebook.com/theonion?v=feed&story_fbid=269517300181

  87. 87.

    Scott H

    September 27, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    The Devil’s Dictionary [Ambrose Bierce] has a definition for ‘conservative’ that seems apt – as well as a one for ‘lexicographer.’

  88. 88.

    Lesley

    September 27, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    There are so many great definitions in this thread, I recommend linking to it from the lexicon.

  89. 89.

    gnomedad

    September 27, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    @Deborah:

    “Standing astride history yelling ‘Stop Wide stance!’ ”

    Fixed.

  90. 90.

    Linkmeister

    September 27, 2009 at 4:06 pm

    @Brick Oven Bill: You said “a black person with a 1000 SAT score will make over $200k/yr.”

    The table to which you refer says in its description “in 2008 black students from families with incomes of more than $200,000 scored lower on the SAT test than did students from white families with incomes between $20,000 and $40,000.”

    What you said cannot be extrapolated from what the table says. “Will make?” Hardly.

    I know, I know. Troll, feeding thereof, etc. I’ll stop now.

  91. 91.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    September 27, 2009 at 4:06 pm

    @dmsilev:

    The IP addresses of vandals will be reported to authorities. That includes your employer and your local prosecutor.

    Why would they think that your employer and local prosecutor are vandalizing their stupid site?

    And if they are, I mean, that should tell them something.

  92. 92.

    Brick Oven Bill

    September 27, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    Thus my qualifying assumption that Creationism is false and intelligence is inherited Linkmeister.

  93. 93.

    Free At Last

    September 27, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    Conservative: Someone who has to be dragged, while kicking and screaming, into any changed social order, but who will, several decades later, proudly brag of how he supported those changes. (see Civil Rights, Medicare; note: Same Sex Marriage may take more than a few decades.)

  94. 94.

    Brick Oven Bill

    September 27, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    I’ll stop now too. As I am a man of priviledge and have no TV, it is time to drive my Ford Focus to town and watch football.

  95. 95.

    Surreal American

    September 27, 2009 at 4:13 pm

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    I’ll stop now too. As I am a man of priviledge and have no TV, it is time to drive my Ford Focus to town and watch football.

    The library is closing soon?

  96. 96.

    Warren Terra

    September 27, 2009 at 4:14 pm

    @ Boston Lib, #44
    since you bring up Conservapedia (and really, if they idolize conservatism, shouldn’t that really be Conservapaedia?), their definition of Liberal is about everything you’d expect; it begins:

    A liberal (also leftist) is someone who rejects logical and biblical standards, often for self-centered reasons. There are no coherent liberal standards; often a liberal is merely someone who craves attention, and who uses many words to say nothing. Liberalism began as a movement for individual liberties, but today is increasingly statist, and in Europe even socia!istic.
    The long romance of Western leftists with some of the bloodiest regimes and political movements in history is a story not told often enough …[1]
    A liberal generally supports many of the following political positions and practices:
    Taxpayer-funded and/or legalized abortion
    Censorship of teacher-lead prayer in classrooms and school sponsored events
    Support for gun control
    Support of obscenity and pornography as a First Amendment right[2]
    …

    It continues from there in a similar vein, but as usual is very revealing about the writers of Convervapedia, and much less so about its alleged subject. I especially like that their list of allegedly “liberal” organizations contains groups ranging from the AARP to ANSWER, neither of which is actually Liberal, but omits such obvious ones as People For The American Way.

    Their definition of “Conservative” is the usual nonsense about moral principles and liberal government, and is quite typically steeped in hypocrisy and unhinged from reality and experience, but isn’t really as entertaining.

  97. 97.

    Ken

    September 27, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    Most of the prominent “Conservatives” these days are actually authoritarian and/or theocratic radicals.

  98. 98.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    September 27, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    every American who calls himself ‘conservative’ hates … the ACLU*.

    Until and during the time they need the kind of legal representation that is the specialty of the ACLU. After wards they go back to hating the ACLU.

    See also, sex with people of the same gender.

  99. 99.

    Roger Moore

    September 27, 2009 at 4:17 pm

    @Ivan Ivanovich Renko:

    Conservative used to imply defending individual liberties against government interference.

    Unless they’re black people seeking things like, oh, the vote; or the right to live without hanging from a tree.

    No, no. You don’t get it. They’re just interested in protecting the individual right to engage in lynching from unwarranted government interference. Just as they want to defend the individual right to discriminate against people who have the wrong gender, sexual preference, religion, political belief, or skin color against evil government attempts to prevent the same.

  100. 100.

    MrE

    September 27, 2009 at 4:17 pm

    Con (as in con job): one willing to maintain a high level of denial and cognitive dissonance (as in, Party of Lincoln (govt of, for & by the people) v. govt = the problem, not the solution. Etc. ad nauseam.)

  101. 101.

    Warren Terra

    September 27, 2009 at 4:20 pm

    Arg, I blockquoted an entertaning quote from Conservapedia, having been reminded of its existence by Boston Lib’s comment, and forgot to alter the spelling of a certain word in the quoted text, a word that refers to a philosophy of government but also contains within it the trademark of a popular pharmaceutical. Hence: Moderation. And editing didn’t relieve the Moderation.

    I’m usually good about using Balloon-Juice-appropriate respellings of that word, but I so often forget to fix quoted text.

  102. 102.

    Jamey

    September 27, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    Anyone here add JK Galbraith’s definition of the modern Conservative?

    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.”

    Best I can say for Safire is that he’s no longer suffering.

  103. 103.

    Coloradoblue

    September 27, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    Conservative – someone who can say with a straight face: I hate all government; I hate all taxes; where’s my check?

    Liberal – someone who sends the check.

  104. 104.

    Chasm

    September 27, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    Are you going to define ASW or is that strictly of the Sadly No! lexicon?

  105. 105.

    AhabTRuler

    September 27, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    Best I can say for Safire is that he’s we’re no longer suffering.

    Fixeteth, fer pronoun-y goodness!

  106. 106.

    AM

    September 27, 2009 at 4:30 pm

    Conservative: general world view dominated by fear and greed
    Liberal: general world view dominated by curiosity and compassion

  107. 107.

    VictorM

    September 27, 2009 at 4:32 pm

    Conservative = all about me
    Liberal = all about us

  108. 108.

    gnomedad

    September 27, 2009 at 4:33 pm

    All snark aside, I rather like the Dictionary.com definitions. To the extent that I think of myself as a moderate, I like the idea of keeping these approaches in some sort of balance. I prefer to point out that current “conservatives” are not really conservative rather than to define conservatism down. And I’d like to think that a liberal can favor limited government while being an effective advocate of its necessary functions.

  109. 109.

    calipygian

    September 27, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    @Bill E Pilgrim: I’m almost tempted to go there and vandalize the Reagan and Jesus page in the most obscene ways I can think of and not use TOR while I do it, just to push the issue.

    I have an account.

  110. 110.

    calipygian

    September 27, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    They’re just interested in protecting the individual right to engage in lynching from unwarranted government interference. Just as they want to defend the individual right to discriminate against people who have the wrong gender, sexual preference, religion, political belief, or skin color against evil government attempts to prevent the same.

    WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — Talk radio host Rush Limbaugh (search) probably never expected the American Civil Liberties Union (search) to become one of his staunch supporters.
    But the privacy rights group was on his side Monday when its Florida branch filed a “friend-of-court” motion on behalf of Limbaugh arguing state officials were wrong in seizing his medical records for their drug probe.

    Yup, bunch of evil motherfuckers, those ACLU people.

  111. 111.

    Roddy McCorley

    September 27, 2009 at 4:44 pm

    Conservative: Someone who wants their kids to go to a good school.

    Liberal: Someone who wants everyone’s kids to go to a good school.

  112. 112.

    ogre

    September 27, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    Philip E. Agre hit the right note in 2004, I believe, in his article “What’s Wrong With Conservatism?”:

    Q: What is conservatism?
    A: Conservatism is the domination of society by an aristocracy.

    Q: What is wrong with conservatism?
    A: Conservatism is incompatible with democracy, prosperity, and civilization in general. It is a destructive system of inequality and prejudice that is founded on deception and has no place in the modern world.

  113. 113.

    Dave_Violence

    September 27, 2009 at 4:51 pm

    Conservatives: Republicans.

    Liberals: Not Republicans.

    True conservatives will refer to the core of their world view “classical liberal.” What’s reported as “conservative” these days is a mob of folks enjoying their misunderstood anger too much to grow out of it.

  114. 114.

    Joshua B

    September 27, 2009 at 4:51 pm

    Modern Conservatism is the belief that all problems can be solved with Tax Cuts/Rebates.

    Violence running rampant in your city? Give Tax Cuts to gun owners to encourage more gun ownership and vigilante justice.

    Unusually high rate of teen pregnancies? Tax Cuts to married couples who waited.

    Local school district low on funds? Give Tax Cuts to Church based and Private Schools and Tax Rebates to parents who send their kids to them.

    No Health Care? Tax Rebates for a small portion of your medical expenses.

    Global Warming? Tax Cuts for biggest polluters in exchange for a non-binding promise to cut down on their pollution.

    Large population of the public drastically over weight? Tax Rebates on Gym Membership Dues. Purchases of weight loss equipment are tax deductible.

    Federal Government bankrupt due to lack of tax revenue? Tax Cuts for the wealthy!

  115. 115.

    Ash Can

    September 27, 2009 at 5:00 pm

    As for William Safire, I just think it’s a pity he never regarded his fellow man with the same reverence he gave the English language.

  116. 116.

    snood

    September 27, 2009 at 5:06 pm

    Dear BoB:

    Your cited statistics on race, SAT scores and income are a prediction of SAT scores from family income, not a prediction of income from SAT scores. I love a good troll, but at least make remotely plausible arguments and leave statistics alone. You don’t understand what you are reading.

  117. 117.

    Kevin

    September 27, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    The fact that Barak is considered (or was by the media at least) the most Liberal senator shows how muddled the definitions are. In any sane country, he is a conservative, or at the very least, center right politician. But in the US, he’s Mao Stalin.

  118. 118.

    Ecks

    September 27, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    George Bernard Shaw def’n: “A conservative is a person who demands a square deal for the rich.”

    More modern definition (that some above have talked around at length): Conservatives believe in government restrictions of social activity (marriage, abortion, etc) but laissez faire on economic issues. Liberals are vice versa, while libertarians believe in laissez faire on both social AND economic fronts, but for obscure reasons currently tend to line up as republicans.

    Oh, and movement conservatives are just good old fashioned authoritarians.

    And lest anyone bite on more of BOB’s BS, (boBS?), the best psychological research to date suggests two things:

    1) Intelligence is a mixture of genetic and environmental influence. You can inherit a propensity for higher IQ (and there don’t appear to be any racial differences in this), and you can have an environment that gives you more or less opportunity to develop a rich mental life (for which there are currently enormous racial differences, on average).

    2) Intelligence is an excellent predictor of how well you do at school, but little else. For generations that grow up in good economic times, it is lightly associated with income, up to a point (super high IQ’s don’t seem to do much better than merely pretty good ones), and in bust times IQ is almost completely meaningless for life success.

    And now you know.

    Oh, and bonus point: If you control for income, education, geographic location, etc, there’s still a pretty substantial effect by which minorities earn considerably LESS than whites. You can even do experiments where you carefully select a black and a white person (or a woman and a man) who are equivalently good looking, you can give them fake resume’s that are equally balanced, and send them out to apply for jobs, and what you find is that the white guys get offered the job far more often than the other two – but only if they are bubble candidates. Slam-dunk blacks get hired at the same rate as slam-dunk whites, and miserably unqualified blacks and whites both tend to get bounced. Gaertner and Dovidio had a great JPSP (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology) article on this in… oh, I’m going to say 1995.

  119. 119.

    Shell

    September 27, 2009 at 5:20 pm

    Conservative – someone who can say with a straight face: I hate all government; I hate all taxes; where’s my check?
    Liberal – someone who sends the check.

    Lisa; Didn’t you wonder why you were getting checks for doing nothing?
    Grampa: I figured, ‘cuz the Democrats were in power again.
    –Simpsons, “The Front”

  120. 120.

    Scott de B.

    September 27, 2009 at 5:24 pm

    The English language, like the Constitution (some would say), is a living thing. Practically nobody remembers anymore that Begging the Question exclusively means making an argument that takes its own conclusion for granted.

    No, no, no. The ‘wrong’ use of ‘begging the question’ is not a ‘new’ formulation that is replacing the old. It is not an example of the English language as a living thing. The use of ‘begging the question’ to mean ‘prompts the question’ has been around since at least 1850, and probably longer. The two meanings have been locked in combat for 150 years and there is no reason to think they won’t be locked in combat 150 years from now.

  121. 121.

    Devin Ition

    September 27, 2009 at 5:29 pm

    If this hasn’t been cited yet, a hundred years ago Ambrose Bierce defined “conservative” as “A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.”

  122. 122.

    Tyrone Slothrop

    September 27, 2009 at 5:37 pm

    Liberal: One who tends to favor equality as the highest societal good, and believes that government intervention is integral in maintaining or increasing the level of equality.

    Conservative: One who tends to favor freedom as the highest societal good, and believes that limitation on government intervention is integral in maintaining or increasing the level of freedom.

  123. 123.

    Mike in NC

    September 27, 2009 at 5:39 pm

    Or this variation:

    Best I can say for Safire is that he’s no longer suffering insufferable.

  124. 124.

    Mike in NC

    September 27, 2009 at 5:41 pm

    I recall this from the Reagan era: A liberal will promise you a great deal and deliver very little. A conservative will promise you nothing and deliver even less.

  125. 125.

    justinslot

    September 27, 2009 at 5:44 pm

    Without reading the entire thread:

    Conservative: Someone primarily motivated by a visceral hatred of liberals.
    Libertarian: Someone primarily motivated by a visceral hatred of liberals, with an additional need to appear post-partisan. (Libertarians always claim to hate both teams equally, but if you go to–say–Hit & Run, there seems to be lot more intense hatred of the left than the right.)
    Liberal: Someone primarily motivated by a visceral hatred of the Republican party.

  126. 126.

    Joey Maloney

    September 27, 2009 at 5:46 pm

    It’s not really a definition as such, but I like J. S. Mill on the subject:

    Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.

  127. 127.

    CaseyL

    September 27, 2009 at 5:49 pm

    This isn’t about definitions of “liberal” or “conservative”; it’s a general entry to the Lexicon. I checked and we don’t seem to have this one yet:

    TIDOS: “Treason in Defense of Slavery,” aka the Confederate States of America, formed by the southern states which seceeded from the Union. The term TIDOS refers specifically to bloggers who are fans and defenders of the Confederacy. TIDOS bloggers may or may not be southern themselves, but they are uniformly right wing and racist.

  128. 128.

    smiley

    September 27, 2009 at 5:55 pm

    @Ecks: You too can test your own intelligence.
    IQ scores, as a concept, are not taken very seriously by a lot of psychologists/psychiatrists/social workers/educators for a lot of reasons. The test has been tweaked many times over the years but the problem is, it was originally developed to test French school children, like, a hundred years ago. It’s been improved but the adoption of “mental age” as part of the equation is problematic (IQ = “mental age [measured by the test] / chronological age X 100). Oh yeah, there’s a lot of cultural bias also (see link above but there have also been studies published showing cross-cultural differences around the world.)

  129. 129.

    MikeBoyScout

    September 27, 2009 at 5:55 pm

    Those labels no longer have any meaning in today’s discourse, so while I applaud your attempt to demonstrate this to us, I think your readers already understand the meaninglessness of the commonly misused labels.
    My recommendation to BJ bloggers is to assiduously refuse to use the conservative and liberal labels. Let Republican insanity stand on its own without the distractive debate over labels.

  130. 130.

    BillCinSD

    September 27, 2009 at 6:01 pm

    @Coloradoblue: Berke Breathed did a good Bloom County on that back in the day. To become a farmer Opus had to say something like “Keep those Government Goombahs offa my land” followed by “Where’s my Goverment bailout check?” without laughing

  131. 131.

    mtraven

    September 27, 2009 at 6:13 pm

    I recommend Raymond Williams’ book Keywords for an exploration of the history of words like “liberal” and other loaded cultural signifiers. Of course, it was written in the mid 70s and in England, so it won’t help much with the utter vacuity of present-day US discourse.

  132. 132.

    CalD

    September 27, 2009 at 6:13 pm

    Even Kevin Drum, who kept sniping from a tree in the Philippines decades after purists lost the war to preserve begging the question, eventually gave up in 2005.

    Well, boo-hoo Kevin Drum (and thank you, Barry Goldwater).

    I concede nothing. Heck, I never even stopped referring to myself as a Liberal. I always enjoyed its effect on right-wing extremists (how about just calling them what they are?) and I’m tired of them getting to do all the branding. But look what a comeback big “L” Liberalism has made. These fights can be won.

    I vote that the word conservative continue to mean conservative. In the context of right-wing extremism it should be written in quotation marks or better yet, not used.

  133. 133.

    CalD

    September 27, 2009 at 6:19 pm

    PS: Does voting that the word conservative should continue to mean conservative effectively make me a conservative by my own definition?

  134. 134.

    Xecky Gilchrist

    September 27, 2009 at 6:20 pm

    Joking aside, the dictionary definitions quoted in the original post for “liberal” and “conservative” are not bad, once you make a small tweak:

    Liberal, adj.

    1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

    Conservative, adj.

    1. disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change because to do otherwise emboldens the terrorists and imperils the purity of one’s precious bodily fluids.

  135. 135.

    AJ

    September 27, 2009 at 6:21 pm

    My favorite:

    “If a conservative is a liberal who’s just been mugged, a liberal is a conservative who just got arrested.”

  136. 136.

    smiley

    September 27, 2009 at 6:25 pm

    @CalD:
    What? Tim wasn’t writing about the difference between “liberal” and “conservative” when he wrote that sentence. He was referring to the phrase “begging the question.” See:
    @smiley:

  137. 137.

    CalD

    September 27, 2009 at 6:26 pm

    While we’re on the subject, I’m also pretty damned tired of hearing actual Conservatives referred to as “moderate.”

  138. 138.

    Nutella

    September 27, 2009 at 6:27 pm

    @Tyrone Slothrop:

    Those definitions are way out of date, as the people in favor of preventive detention now call themselves conservative. Preventive detention is about as far as possible from favoring freedom.

    I don’t know who came up with this, but I like these four subsets of people who call themselves ‘conservative’:

    paleocon: old-fashioned conservative who really does favor freedom. The Barry Goldwater quote on abortion is classic paleocon.

    theocon: wants to impose fundamentalist religion on everyone everywhere. Includes Taliban and US religious right.

    corporatecon: used to say What’s good for General Motors is good for the country. Has dropped GM and now considers that what’s good for Goldman Sachs and Big Pharma is good for the country.

    neocon: wants to invade and conquer as many countries as possible. Sometimes mixed up with corporatecons since wars are so profitable.

  139. 139.

    smiley

    September 27, 2009 at 6:35 pm

    @Nutella: I concur. The conservatives who identify as such are indeed fractured – except for one thing. They’re all republicans and they are against anyone who isn’t, including some of their own (see Marco Rubio v. Charlie Christ in FL).

  140. 140.

    CalD

    September 27, 2009 at 6:42 pm

    @smiley:

    Uhhhh, thanks. But I actually did read and comprehend that. My point was I concede nothing. Conservative still means conservative and if Kevin Drum wants Begging the Question to remain a fallacy of critical thinking he should have stuck to his guns. Goldwater did. Apologies if I shifted gears to fast there.

  141. 141.

    Dr B

    September 27, 2009 at 6:52 pm

    A conservative is a person who believes in enriching and empowering a few while impoverishing both the masses and the government (making it a species of despotism).

  142. 142.

    CalD

    September 27, 2009 at 6:54 pm

    Speaking of coopted logical fallacies, isn’t it funny how often you hear someone invoke the Slippery Slope with a straight face and with no one ever getting called on it? Republicans seem particularly fond of the term but I seriously doubt they’re the only culprits.

  143. 143.

    Andre

    September 27, 2009 at 7:40 pm

    To quote J.S. Mill: “I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.”

  144. 144.

    digitusmedius

    September 27, 2009 at 7:47 pm

    I call big BS on B.O.B. (if no one else has already) for this(@55):

    Consider the SAT-Income data. Assuming intelligence is inherited, which is a solid assumption unless you are a Creationist, a white person with a 1000 SAT score will make around $45k/yr.

    and this (ibid):

    In contrast, a black person with a 1000 SAT score will make over $200k/yr. If one believes in meritocracy, it is easy to judge where the privilege lies in this society. In a free-market, information-based society, governed by Natural Law, people with similar intellects would earn similar incomes.

    First, the minor BS: inheritance is a big component of IQ, but the SAT tests are not tests of IQ. They are “fund of knowledge” tests and are greatly influenced by social/economic status. It all goes downhill for B.O.B from there.

    He’s trying to pass of the SAT scores and demographic date of current test takers as predictors of future earnings. To give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he just doesn’t know what the data he’s looking at means. But seeing how he’s pasted these stats on his own web page and then supplies us with a link that leads to nothing to do with those stats makes the possibility of deliberate deceit something to consider.

    Then there’s that last sentence of the second paragraph. What a corker that is. Could B.O.B. really be suffering under the delusion that Donald Trump’s IQ is higher than Stephen Hawking’s? I can’t come up with a single excuse for B.O.B. making a statement like that. There is only one conclusion that any could reach.

  145. 145.

    SiubhanDuinne

    September 27, 2009 at 7:50 pm

    Just testing. Every BJ thread seemed to die at the same time as the Steelers.

  146. 146.

    Catbus

    September 27, 2009 at 8:35 pm

    I’m going to try to take this assignment seriously and answer as objectively as I can:

    Liberal: In U.S. politics, someone who favors domestic government action or intervention to increase civil liberties, equality of opportunity and/or equal justice under the law. Likely to judge a domestic policy or proposed policy on the basis of its fairness or the amount of direct benefit or harm it causes. In international affairs, favors cooperative partnerships, and typically approves of military intervention only in order to defend human or sovereign rights. A holder of an inclusive political philosophy, i.e., one predisposed to focus on similarities between self and other.

    Conservative: In U.S. politics, someone who favors maintaining existing political and economic power structures and opposes domestic government action or intervention in these areas. Likely to judge a domestic policy or proposed policy on the basis of faithfulness to a shared group ideology and/or deference to an accepted authority. In international affairs, favors “going it alone,” and typically approves of military intervention in any instance in which national interest or honor appears to be at stake. A holder of an exclusive political philosophy, i.e., one predisposed to focus on differences between self and other.

  147. 147.

    mparker

    September 27, 2009 at 8:39 pm

    Liberal – Supports humanity

    Conservative – Supports the domination of humanity

  148. 148.

    Little Macayla's Friend

    September 27, 2009 at 9:01 pm

    Looking at B.O.B.’s number of blog archive entries, it appears that over the last six months his blog is on its way to going Galt (or that even a spoof blog causes painful cognitive dissonance).

  149. 149.

    calipygian

    September 27, 2009 at 9:30 pm

    Dan Riehl posts the most despicable post in the history of blogging.

    It would be irresponsible not to speculate that Dan Riehl lures little children into the back of his Chevy Astro van with promises of crack and My Little Ponies for the purposes of his own twisted sexual gratification.

  150. 150.

    SGEW

    September 27, 2009 at 9:33 pm

    Sorry I missed joining in earlier. Nice thread.

    Why not just go back to ye olde “left / right” axis, and its historical origin:

    [I]n the French Legislative Assembly of 1791, when the king was still the formal head of state, the royalist Feuillants sat on the right side of the chamber, while the Montagnards sat on the left. Originally, the defining point on the ideological spectrum were the attitudes towards the ancien régime (“old order”). “The Right” thus implied support for aristocratic, royal and clerical interests, while “The Left” implied support for republicanism, secularism and civil liberties.

    Royalists to the right, democrats to the left, please.

    But, as has been said many a time, the original meaning(s) of “conservative” have been rather radically changed in the U.S.A. over the years: Edmund Burke, royalist asshole that he was, would have been absolutely appalled by the actions of the Bush administration. The current “conservative” “movement” we see today has an only tangential relation to the political philosophies associated with the European history of the word “conservative” (key example: Andrew Sullivan, who knows his Burke, and was a Brit to boot), and has now more or less unmoored itself from the peculiarly American flavor that arose post WWII (from Ike to Herbert). George W. Bush’s radicalism was the breaking point that shattered the very concept of “conservative” in this country, and we are now seeing the shards that remain.

    Are there still any “conservatives” in American politics? Ron Paul, maybe? Pat Buchanan? (That should tell you something: even stretching hard, the only conservatives I could think of are either batshit crazy, racist fucks, or both.) What does Daniel Larison have to say about this?

    Otherwise: new word needed to replace “conservatives,” please, to differentiate from actual historical conservatives! I’ve been saying this for years. “Revanchists” is pretty good, but too limited. “Wingnuts” is too obviously derogatory. “Freepers” too cutesy sounding. “Teabaggers” too obscene. We need a good, solid, institutional sounding name or phrase.

    Perhaps, in honor of a true lexicographer who passed today, we should call them “Nabobs.”

  151. 151.

    Splitting Image

    September 27, 2009 at 9:35 pm

    A liberal believes that open debate and organized activity can have a positive impact on people’s lives.

    A conservative fears this is true.

    Conservative: Anything that self-proclaimed conservatives like or are in favor of.
    Liberal: Anything that self-proclaimed conservatives dislike or are against.

    Also, this.

  152. 152.

    Xecky Gilchrist

    September 27, 2009 at 9:37 pm

    @SGEW: Otherwise: new word needed to replace “conservatives,” please, to differentiate from actual historical conservatives!

    This is a good point. I think it would be fine just to use “movement conservative”. A modifier can completely change the sense of a word – cf. “soc1alism” v. “National Soc1alism.”

  153. 153.

    sweet spot

    September 27, 2009 at 10:00 pm

    It’s become pretty clear that conservative means “I only care about myself” and liberal means “I take other people’s beliefs and needs into account.”
    This can be seen in the the transformation of conservatives when their lives are hit by things they didn’t used to care about.
    So James Brady was pro-gun until he got shot.
    Nancy Reagan was anti-stem-cell research until Ron got alzheimers.

    When they find they need the thing that they were previously against, they get very liberal ideas….

  154. 154.

    jrg

    September 27, 2009 at 10:01 pm

    Liberal: Someone who understands that magical pixie dust does not pay for Medicare, the military, and political antics.

    Conservative: Someone who wonders how n*ggers get away with stealing all the magical pixie dust.

  155. 155.

    tmaxPA

    September 27, 2009 at 10:02 pm

    Liberal: believes a strong social safety net encourages independence

    Conservative: believes any social safety net encourages dependence

    Alternates –
    Liberal: capable of recognizing one’s own fallability (from this quote from Molly Ivans, “attack a liberal and the first thing he says is, ‘You may have a point there.'” That’s what makes us the good guys.)

    Conservative: a political philosophy based on the psychological search for an abusive father figure and ruthlessly destroying anyone who shows weakness.

  156. 156.

    Cruel Jest

    September 27, 2009 at 10:22 pm

    Conservative: A shrinking segment of the US population who value political power above all, combined with the inability to use that power wisely.

    Liberal: a growing segment of the US population with little in common but that they cannot abide a complete abandonment of logic, reason, and some semblance of consistency.

    Something like that, anyway.

  157. 157.

    Brian Griffin

    September 27, 2009 at 10:24 pm

    I have to go with TJ as quoted by evan at 83. hard to argue with a definition from the time of the founding of the country.

  158. 158.

    Ecks

    September 27, 2009 at 10:26 pm

    @smiley:

    I actually *am* a psychologist, and so I can tell you with pretty good confidence that some of us take it VERY seriously – if you do testing in schools you spend a lot of time delivering IQ tests, for instance, and occasionally it gets used in criminal trials, for example, to try to determine if someone is so delayed that they probably didn’t understand what they were doing.

    The important thing to remember is that it’s just a tool that tells you a small amount about how a person thinks. That doesn’t mean nobody ever takes it seriously though – sometimes that small amount is useful (as I say, mostly it is just a good predictor of how well people do in school – very useful in educational settings).

    There has also been a great deal of ingenuity placed into developing tests that have less cultural bias, and these have had some certain amount of success, and can be leaned on more heavily when cultural concerns might be relevant. Some of these tests don’t at all resemble the Stanford Binet (the descendant of the test you referenced, originally developed for french school kids).

    All the trouble comes when people start treating it like some kind of indicator of your worth as a human being, or your ability to operate in everyday life.

  159. 159.

    Cruel Jest

    September 27, 2009 at 10:31 pm

    @The Raven at 76: Close enough for me.

  160. 160.

    Jen R

    September 27, 2009 at 10:35 pm

    @TJ:

    I worry that the need for a lexicon points to a tendency we see on the side of the crazies—getting too insular (reducing huge stories/arguments to slogans or even single words)…

    I’d argue that realizing that we need a lexicon puts us way ahead of the crazies, who do things like put up billboards saying “Where’s the birth certificate?” without realizing that most sane people aren’t going to know wtf they’re talking about.

  161. 161.

    Johnny Pez

    September 27, 2009 at 10:39 pm

    I always liked Andy Rooney’s definitions:

    A liberal believes that people are basically good, but have to be saved from themselves by their government.

    A conservative believes that people are basically bad, but they’ll be okay if they’re left alone.

  162. 162.

    Old Bob

    September 27, 2009 at 10:50 pm

    Bob Orben, President Gerald Ford’s speech writer, once said that a conservative is “someone who believes that the problem with our economy is that poor people have too much money.”

  163. 163.

    Charles

    September 27, 2009 at 10:51 pm

    A conservative is someone who mistakes what is for what should be. A liberal is someone who believes the best one can do is to split the difference.

  164. 164.

    sam

    September 27, 2009 at 11:27 pm

    as a liberal, i’m amazed that so few fellow liberals refuse to be so intellectually honest as to make a real attempt to define conservatism. most of the comments are sad attempts at humor that merely highlights many commenters inability to discuss things outside of the lens of cantankerous election year vitriole. refusing to step back and truthfully assess one’s opponent is a fundamental flaw.

    Conservative: A self-identifying political ideology with sometimes opposing domestic and geopolitical schemes. Domestically, conservatism promotes religion (typically Christianity), nationalism, limited government, low social spending, corporate autonomy, reduced taxation, and states’ rights. Globally, conservatism promotes militaristic real politik as a means of expanding trade and protecting sovereignty.

  165. 165.

    Mari

    September 28, 2009 at 1:03 am

    Modern conservatism is too ideologically incoherent to be reduced to a concise definition, even for snarking purposes. A few approximations:

    Conservative (n): 1. among VSPs and office holders: someone who believes the sole legitimate purposes of government to be persecuting non-whites and transferring wealth from the poor to the rich. 2. as a member of the public: an unthinking follower of self-professed conservative leaders.

    Conservative (n): an untreated sociopath.

    Conservative (n): A person who makes others suffer for his/her mental illness.

    Conservative (adj): Prior to the election of Obama, disposed to believe that the correct response to every issue is to cut taxes on the rich and to persecute Democrats and Muslims. After the election of Obama, disposed to believe that, for every issue, doing nothing is not only possible but is also the best course of action.

  166. 166.

    Phoenician in a time of Romans

    September 28, 2009 at 1:14 am

    Liberals: The belief that power should be exercised to enhance people’s lives.

    Conservatives: The belief that power should be exercised to reinforce people’s prejudices.

  167. 167.

    electricgrendel

    September 28, 2009 at 3:51 am

    liberal (n.)- a political philosophy that analyzes the past in order to limit the grievances of the future.

    conservative (n.)- a political philosophy which looks toward the past in order to find ways to assure grievances in the future.

  168. 168.

    BruceK

    September 28, 2009 at 9:09 am

    I think that “conservative” has to be split into different definitions for different time periods. Because its meaning in the 1780’s wasn’t remotely like its meaning in the 1960’s … and its meaning seemed to change radically on January 20, 2009.

    Case in point: my folks insist that I’m a conservative if you follow the old definition of the word.

  169. 169.

    Tommy Deelite

    September 28, 2009 at 9:13 am

    a white person with a 1000 SAT score will make around $45k/yr.

    In contrast, a black person with a 1000 SAT score will make over $200k/yr

    That’s not what the table you provide says, BOB — rather, it says that the children of $200k/yr black parents score over 1000 at the same clip as children of $45k/yr white parents. This doesn’t point to a selective employment bias, if that’s what you’re implying. Unless you’re assuming income stays constant across generations, which would be, y’know, an aberration from Natural Law of the highest order.

  170. 170.

    Sully Fick

    September 28, 2009 at 10:02 am

    The radical of one century is the conservative of the next. The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them.

    – Mark Twain

  171. 171.

    LarryB

    September 28, 2009 at 10:49 am

    @sam:

    Conservative: A self-identifying political ideology with sometimes opposing domestic and geopolitical schemes. Domestically, conservatism promotes religion (typically Christianity), nationalism, limited government, low social spending, corporate autonomy, reduced taxation, and states’ rights. Conservatives extoll the virtues of “limited government” and “states rights” only when convenient to resist efforts to do any of the above. Globally, conservatism promotes militaristic real politik adventurism as a means of expanding trade and protecting sovereignty.

    Fixed.

  172. 172.

    And Venn Wept

    September 28, 2009 at 10:51 am

    refusing to step back and truthfully assess one’s opponent is a fundamental flaw.

    Or maybe the problem is that you can’t define the conservative party any more, other than by what they oppose. When your party’s loudest voice are unelected talking heads who will say anything for controversy, and their elected leaders are openly sounding dogwhistles, how can you conduct honest research?

    There are conservatives out there who are normal, sane, and not prone to disagree with ideas just because a liberal happened to think them up. Some are environmentalists, some are strict about civil liberties, etc.

    Years ago, back when a conservative friend of mine saw what was happening to his party and despaired, he mentioned in conversation what he saw his party as. To paraphrase, he said that being a conservative isn’t really about preserving the past, it’s about stewardship. It’s not about rejecting change, it’s supposed to be about leaving the country in better shape then it was last year and the year before. It’s not about opposition to change, its about wariness of change.

    I think that desire is a core principle among the rank and file. And I think it has been utterly, totally, and perhaps unredeemably corrupted to spilt the lower and middle class.

  173. 173.

    J. A. Baker

    September 28, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    I want to clarify the definition of “Center-right nation.” I first started hearing it in the wake of the 2004 election, both as justification of Bush’s “mandate” (with Jeff Gannon!) and as a defense of the “permanent Republican majority” that conservatives were trying to build.

    Cf. this Bill Moyers interview with Grover “I want a government small enough to drown in the bathtub” Norquist, in which Moyers cites the Norquist quote in the WaPo comparing Democrats to castrated animals.

  174. 174.

    LongHairedWeirdo

    September 28, 2009 at 1:17 pm

    Steve Jackson wrote a game called Illuminati, and he defined “Liberal” as “politically ‘left’, whatever that means” and “Conservative” as “usually mad at the liberals”.

  175. 175.

    BlueTickDem

    September 28, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    Conservative: I, me, mine. Screw you!

    Liberal: We, us, ours. What can be done for you?

    Moderate: Still trying to figure out the conundrum of how they can have their cake and eat it to.

    — BTD

  176. 176.

    david hesselhoff

    September 28, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    liberal: yesterday’s conservative

    conservative: yesterday’s fascist

    happy2help

  177. 177.

    david hesselhoff

    September 28, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    mine @179 referred to ELECTED ‘liberals’ and ‘conservatives.’

    also, i’ve never seen ‘beg the question’ to mean either …

    1) ask the question, or
    2) make an argument which assumes the question
    has already been proven.

    it usually means ‘ignore the question’ as in ….

    people ask, ‘where are the moderate republicans?’ the answer is that they are an overwhelming majority in the democratic party. so to ask ‘where are the moderate republicans’ is to beg the question of ‘where the $*&^% are the democrats?’

    just sayin’

  178. 178.

    Catbus

    September 28, 2009 at 5:38 pm

    Otherwise: new word needed to replace “conservatives,” please, to differentiate from actual historical conservatives!

    “Nationalists.”

  179. 179.

    gerry

    September 28, 2009 at 9:35 pm

    Conservatives forward the interests of the elite. Liberals believe in democracy. The fact that the conservative party has convinced large swaths of lower and middle class America to forward the interests of the elite does not change this. The Federalists did not believe in democracy and fought universal suffrage, i.e., restriction of the right to vote to property owners. According to Schlesinger in “The Age of Jackson”, once they lost that fight, they moved their efforts to the clergy and the judiciary. Sounds pretty modern to me.

  180. 180.

    Osprey

    September 29, 2009 at 10:01 am

    A Conservative, to paraphrase a movie quote, is somebody who claims to love America but clearly hates Americans.

    To further that definition, I believe a Conservative is somebody who claims to love America, but will kill/torture/rob/slander as many Americans as they see fit to achieve their goals.

  181. 181.

    almostaquantum

    September 29, 2009 at 10:24 am

    In a better world—

    conservative: here are the principles we espouse; let us build a society in accordance with them.

    liberal: here is the society we desire; let us make sure our principles accord with it.

  182. 182.

    slippy

    September 29, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    @linda: I can’t feel sorry for Safire. I read too many of his lunkheaded columns.

    Once again, I bemoan my atheism. Otherwise I could believe that William Safire is just now warming up to a well-deserved and long-overdue examination of the gaping holes in his moral fabric.

  183. 183.

    slippy

    September 29, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    @almostaquantum: Conservative: These are my principles. If you don’t like them, I have others, depending on who I’m talking to.

  184. 184.

    almostaquantum

    September 29, 2009 at 1:59 pm

    @slippy:
    Relying on unfortunate/untenable principles can do does that.

  185. 185.

    Ambrose

    September 29, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    Conservative = Selfish

    Simple as that.

  186. 186.

    Ambrose

    September 29, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    Conservative = Selfish

    Simple as that.

Comments are closed.

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