Has anyone offered an amendment requiring employers to, somewhere on every pay stub, list how much the employer and employee contribution to their respective health care plan was for that pay period, the cumulative for the year, and how much that is up from the same time last year, over the past five years, and over the past ten years?
That seems like it could be very valuable information that could really inform people just how much money is going to the insurance boys and girls and how it is really impacting their wages.
Xecky Gilchrist
I think they should not only do that, but do the same for taxes. I’ve had coworkers piss and moan at me that (this was a while back) Clinton raised their taxes, when in fact no such thing had happened and said coworker had no idea how much he paid in taxes before and after Clinton took office. It would be nice to show some real numbers about that kind of thing too.
Cat Lady
Sorry, John we’re going to have to leave that there.
Matt
I have my contribution listed every pay period, as well as the cumulative contribution. Not my employer, though. I think that’s a brilliant idea, though.
beltane
My husband does get that information every year, along with 401(k) and life insurance stuff. The total cost of our health insurance premium easily exceeds our mortgage, insurance, car payment and property tax combined. And yet we can never get a single claim processed without a hassle.
Jonathan
My contribution is listed, current and YTD, as I think it has to be, since it comes from gross pay, which is what the stub breaks down. But I’ve never seen the employer’s share, ie the largest, and it would be a revelation to know what the coverage costs in its entirety.
Lee from NC
Great idea. I actually have some idea of how much it is because I was on COBRA for a while a few years ago. You have to pay the entire cost of your coverage on your own while you are covered by COBRA. It was a little over $400 per month and that was around 2000 or so. I’m sure it would be hella more expensive now.
jakester
Ha ha, pay stub! How quaint.
Demo Woman
It is a great idea. I also think that Medicare Advantage folks need to be informed how much extra the government is paying the insurance companies.
The taxation issue is interesting also. Recently because of the stimulus 95% of Americans received a tax cut and not a lot of folks realize that. What they did know is that Bush sent them $50.00.
Napoleon
@Xecky Gilchrist:
??? – Since when do pay stubs not list the employee tax withholding? At a minimum even if for some weird reason it didn’t the W-2 you get at the end of the year has a full breakdown.
jibeaux
Ezra Klein has made this point. People think of employer-provided benefits as a freebie, a bonus, but they don’t realize that it’s really money their employer could be paying them in wages. If they saw a dollar amount that their employer could be giving them in wages, and there was another system in place for providing health care benefits, they would see the issue of whether or not health care should be so inextricably linked to employment differently.
gbear
That info listed on every pay stub for me. I think it’s pretty common with gov’t paychecks. I’m single so the share I’m paying is not outrageous. It’s another matter for those with dependents, altogether.
required
I have my contribution as well as my employer’s listed. It isn’t really on my pay stub (online that i can see historically) but on another tab and shows “Last” and “YTD” for Employee (me) and Employer. It has the amounts broken down into categories like Dental, Medical, Vision, Life. There is also a Dependents tab that I guess would show how much I and my employer would pay for them if I had any.
When we first started receiving this information I was surprised because it is much less than what I expected.
And no, I don’t think an amendment is necessary. There are already a lot of laws. Freedom facilitates prosperity. Extra laws and requirements just add to the cost of running a business.
Zifnab
I already get a bi-monthly electronic pay stub that gives exactly this information. That said, my company has been trying to keep the health care costs down through a few administrative tricks. Our deductibles went up by $1000 a couple years ago, because we didn’t go into a higher premium plan. In exchange, the CEO offered to cover the difference. So a lot of the expense has been shielded from us.
That said, this year the price of premiums went up another 16% and we basically just had to eat it.
Ken J.
Repeating myself:
The American position on health care:
1) I shouldn’t have to pay anything for my care.
2) I shouldn’t have to pay for anyone else’s care either.
some guy
My company’s stubs (processed by ADP) show this same information.
Also, starting a few years ago, my employer also began providing us with the employer/employee breakdown in % and $. They do this during the meeting when the new (higher) rates for the coming year are revealed, I guess as a way to deflect employee ire at the ever-increasing costs– “Look, since we pay 75% of the cost of your premiums, so we’re getting screwed by the insurance company even more than you!”
some guy
“Also, starting a few years ago, my employer also…”
Help, I’m turning into Sarah Palin! Also.
PT Barnum
If you really want to get people to start being aware of the costs of insurance, make it all payable by the employee with the employer merely upping salary for their share.
We would have single payer so fast your head would spin.
The Grand Panjandrum
I think this vdeo was linked to here at BJ but it is worth another link.
Elizabeth Warren: The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class and much of it has to do with the cost of healthcare. If you haven’t seen it I recommend you do.
Bob K
If the health insurance lobbies get their way and we get NO public option in ANY form we should ALL get behind Leahy’s bill to repeal their anti-trust exemption. They’re putting a gun to our head with their premiums – we need to fight back
http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200909/091709a.html
Chuck Butcher
Oh hell, it’s an old trick; you do get to see your SS/FICA but unless you’re paying attention you easily forget that your employer is also paying that same amount. You know you’ve been dinged but not by how much. This works really well for the asswipes talking about how over taxed the rich are. The first $125K of all wage is hit by a total of 15.78% and then it stops (I don’t have my tables), no more of that. If you don’t bother to add that into your taxation as a blue collar or mid-range earner when you think about the rich you’ve played into their hands. The health care insurance ‘hide the weenie’ game works the same way. If somebody would bother to run the numbers on what a fiscally balanced Medicare For All based on all income would work out to versus the real insurance costs some thinking might change. Go ahead and hold your breath…
Zifnab
@jibeaux:
That doesn’t really factor in. Businesses calculate how much they need to pay you in order to get you to work for them. People estimate how much they need to be paid to afford their standard of living. Wages typically come in at some hard number – $30k, $55k, $75k, $120k, whatever – and then scale up at some percentage arbitrated on rate every year.
If your employer saves $6200 / year / employee, that money doesn’t just automatically end up in the employee’s back pocket.
Employers know that employees expect health care as part of their standard of living. It’s cheaper to give employees a health care plan than it is to give them the money to buy a plan on the open market. So health care is a win-win for employees and employers (and insurance companies). The loser is the government, which offers tax breaks to subsidize the cost of the insurance.
You’ll need a savvy group of employees or a very generous employer to get back all the money from insurance into your paycheck. As likely as not, the employer will either higher more employees or pocket the difference in profit.
The government, however, picks up extra tax revenue – either from the business through corporate taxes or from the new/higher salaries paid to employees.
Employees may win if the public option or insurance exchange premiums are better than their current rates. They could also break even or lose, if they don’t see any spill back from their employers or if the insurance rates they do get are higher than what they’re paying now.
A strong public option could save everyone (except the insurance companies) a lot of money. But the existing program just benefits the bottom line of the government, first and foremost.
Chuck Butcher
@some guy:
Yup, and you get to pass the costs on to whom???
TimO
Make sure they include what kind of kick back the insurance company is giving the employer per employee. United Healthcare for instance will go to your employer and say it costs x-amount to insure each employee, how much more do you want to add on for “administrative costs”? Y-amount? Sure, we can do that! One for you, two for me!
Xecky Gilchrist
@Napoleon: Does yours show wrt the taxes, parallel to what John wrote, “how much that is up from the same time last year, over the past five years, and over the past ten years?”
That’s what I meant.
Violet
Companies and health insurers don’t really want you to know what goes on behind the scenes. Remember the “dead peasants” insurance policies that Michael Moore highlighted in his recent film? They don’t want you to know that kind of thing.
It’ll have to be some kind of law before they show you the tax breaks and other incentives they’re getting.
PurpleGirl
My former employer distributed a memo once a year with the amount they paid for health insurance and the amount paid by those who had family plans. They paid the whole cost for the employee, though. And they would have a line about the increase in cost over the previous year. Since it was a non-profit which let a number of people go last year because of lowered donations, they probably began having employees contribute to the health insurance.
Svensker
The hub and I are both self-employed and I sure as hell can tell you how much we pay for health insurance.
Don
I work for a VA public institution of higher education and my pay stub indicates how much I pay for health care and how much the university does.
I’m not sure it matters. Even aside from how little people care about the little boxes on their pay stub (assuming they look at them at all in the era of direct deposit) they just don’t see that as money they could be getting. It’s health care paid for by their employer, not them, see? THEY paid it! Not me!
BombIranForChrist
If people knew how much their “low cost” work health care coverage actually cost, they would shit themselves. Just ask an HR person. It’s a big reason for wage stagnation.
Steve
I have both current and YTD figures listed for my health care deduction. When the Bush tax cut took effect the increase in my healthcare deduction for that year almost exactly equaled the decrease in federal taxes. Every year since then the health care deduction has gone up, along with co-pays and deductables. Less money in my pocket and more in the insurance companies – and less coverage to boot. Don’t ya just love the free market!
KDP
My last raise, 3 years ago, was triggered when I asked what pay cut I would be seeing as a result of a 22% increase in health insurance premiums. Mine was covered, but I pay for my partner’s. That year, I started paying 276/bimonthly for Steve’s coverage. The next year, his premium went up to 253/bimonthly. Last year, it went up to 293/bimonthly.
This year, for the same coverage is was going to cost me. 402.50 for partner and 42.50 for me. For the first time in the eight years I’ve worked there my employer could not cover the same level of employee health insurance in full. He is able to cover the super-value HMO in full (it would cost about the same as last year). He did try to come up with the money to give us an increase to offset the difference, but he just can’t do it.
I have reduced our plan from the deluxe HMO to the standard HMO, which will save us $1000/yr in premiums but is still costing me 418/bimonthly plus increased copays. I’d have taken the super-value, but since partner has existing heart problems, I did not want to risk the possible costs should something go badly for him. As it is, we scheduled his stent procedure just before the new policy year started.
erinsiobhan
FWIW, in Canada the employer contribution to private health insurance is a taxable benefit that is shown both on my paystub and on the T4 slip that I use for doing my taxes. So I know that my employer is paying $2300/year for my health insurance.
freelancer
Here’s an off question:
Many people are now optimistic for HCR to become reality now that Snowe is agreeing to vote it out of its last committee. But this is still the Baucus Bill, is it not? the PO amendments were defeated in committee. And on the day Baucus presented the bill to the first committee, everyone except Insurance companies were looking at it and him as if he were proudly annoucing that his wife had just given birth to a flaming bag of dogshit.
When did this abortion of a Health Care Bill suddenly become the most awesome thing evah? Am I wrong? I feel like I’m missing something. Please correct me and/or bring me up to speed.
KDP
@KDP:
Ooops, reverse these two amounts.
253/pay period then 276, then 293, now 402.
Chuck Butcher
@freelancer:
It’s been stuck for so long is about all this is about. None of this means shit other than all the things are out of Committee. If you expect something that would work to come out of the Senate, like public option – you’re more optimistic than me.
Ruckus
I used to inform me employees when I had my previous biz. I didn’t put the health insurance info on the checks but I let them know what we were paying.
On my last job all tax and health care info was on each pay stub. At least what I paid every check. And we had regular staff lunches where costs were discussed. Many people could not be bothered to figure out what health care actually cost them both in lost wages and in out of pocket expenses, right up to the time we had to start paying co-pays and our deductible went up from $200.00 per year.
Chuck Butcher
@Chuck Butcher:
As an addendum: what will happen in regard to the House when the Senate passes whatever POS they can is a pretty open question.
It is cheaper to buy Senators than Reps, all Reps have the same population districts and there are a lot of them, Sens have wildly varying populations and the 60 vote for cloture. You need own fewer and spread that money in smaller population areas to get real results in blocking shit you don’t like.
This is what Primaries are for and this is why voters contributing significantly is important … and sure, hold your breath.
ericvsthem
Employees at most companies receive this information once or twice a year during “open enrollment” periods.
Coincidentally, I received mine today, and learned that 1) my monthly contribution is going up by $30, 2) we’re moving from Cigna (dental) and BC/BS to Aetna for all coverage, and 3) my employer pays for 90% of premiums. Total premium cost for 2010 is around $10k for my wife, son, and I.
The obvious fallacy here is that my employer pays those premiums instead of me. It doesn’t take a genius to understand that employers figure health care cost into your salary. If health care costs were lower, salaries and company profits would increase.
freelancer
@ericvsthem:
Which is why it boggles my mind that every other industry in the country isn’t lobbying Washington on behalf of meaningful reform. Instead, they’re mostly quiet and the Insurance companies are making all the noise.
Just Some Fuckhead
My wife is one of the owners of a small business. We pay a little over 14,000/year for a family of 4, two adults, two children The company picks up 50%, we pay the rest out of pocket per paycheck. $15 copays for doctors, $30 for specialists, no deductibles.
Recently, she got her renewal notice from Optima Health. Her company had paid about $100,000 in premiums (employees and company combined) total and Optima took $20,000 right off the top for something called “Administrative and Retention”, then said they’d paid about $90,000 in claims that year and since she’d paid in less (80K after they took 20K) than they paid out, her premiums for the new year were going up between 15-20%.
kay
@The Grand Panjandrum:
Thanks so much. I love Eizabeth Warren. I started reading her when bankruptcy reform legislation passed.
She went through the revised bankruptcy code and highlighted those provisions written by lobbyists.
She wrote then that if it passed (it did) and consumers couldn’t discharge unsecured credit card debt, they were going to start defaulting on mortgage debt, because something had to give: they were up to their ears in debt and their real income wasn’t going up.
It stuck with me, because it made sense. She was right, of course.
Zifnab
@Chuck Butcher:
We got a public option in all four of the other committees (the HELP Committee with Kennedy and now Harkin, and the three House Committees) in one flavor or another. The Finance Committee was pivotal because it would basically guarantee a lock on the program. Baucus and Conrad were really the last two serious hold outs on the Democratic side. Then it would just be a matter of breaking the filibuster and rallying up 50 + Biden, and the House would take care of the rest with a little arm turning from Pelosi.
The hold-outs in the Finance Committee weren’t really holding out to kill the public option. They were just holding out to hold out a little longer for the general Senate. You’re going to see the same crop of amendments float up when the bill hits the floor of the Senate and again in the reconciliation process. And Baucus and Conrad won’t have the same leverage ratio they had in committee.
Ultimately, this was just a question of “How big of an asshole does Baucus want to be?” Now we know his answer.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Just Some Fuckhead: Cool, that was the quickest I ever got outta comment jail.
BDeevDad
Mine lists health, dental, life insurance, etc as one lump sum, and it is significant.
Zifnab
@Just Some Fuckhead: Well, shit. That’s nice work if you can get it.
Almost makes you want to run out and start your own insurance company. What a great scam, amirite?
Just Some Fuckhead
@Zifnab: I dunno Zif. I’ve thought about this a lot in the last coupla weeks. If she and her employees didn’t have health insurance, they’d be paying a fuckton more for doctor and hospital vists (list or “charge master”) instead of the lower rates negotiated by the insurance company with providers.
I think the real elephant in the room wrt health care costs is that doctors and hospitals are charging too fucking much. And the only thing I see that will possibly affect that with the proposed legislation is near universal coverage which theoretically means hospitals don’t have to charge us more through cost-shifting.
kay
@freelancer:
The Baucus bill is the most conservative. It’s the floor. You’ll get something between the Baucus bill and the House bill.
Olympia Snowe actually pushed for higher subsidies, and got them, so raised the floor there. She’s more of a populist than 4 of the Senate Democrats.
This whole thing is going to be pegged to gross income. States are doing that now, and it’s an easy measure. Look at your gross. Start there.
If you don’t have health insurance, and want to follow this in a personal “how will this affect me” way, look at your gross, and find the provision in each of the versions that addresses cut-offs and subsidies for your personal number. You’ll want to look at percentage of the poverty level, too, because that’s going to determine either subsidy levels or whether you’ll qualify for any expansions in Medicaid. 150% of poverty level, etc. The federal poverty levels for 2009 are online.
kay
@Just Some Fuckhead:
What percentage of the family gross is 14,000?
kay
@Just Some Fuckhead:
What percentage of the family gross is 14,000?
kay
I refuse to explain why my double comment should be deleted.
This site is a little authoritarian :) I’ve never tried “delete” before. I didn’t realize you have to defend your delete request. Well, I won’t.
Leelee for Obama
@kay: Hey, kay! Don’t explainanything, boots on necks and all that!
BTW-could you tell me where I might get reliable legal advice here in Florida-it’s about my Mom’s Credit Card? I need free or cheap, as there ain’t much left and I’m not back to work yet.
Thanks!
kay
@Leelee for Obama:
is she elderly? Say, over 70?
Leelee for Obama
@kay: She passed away 2 weeks ago-I don’t know what to do about her one debt-I’m not on the card at all-any advice?
Sanka
Ignorance really IS bliss, I guess. Someone, somewhere will be paying for this monstrosity known as “healthcare reform”.
Whether you are paying through your paycheck, or through various other taxes, the middle class
alwayswill eventually getspinched. But good.Your argument comes down to should we pay the insurance companies or the government. Either way its coming out of the same pot.
That you consider the Barack Obama, the Democratic Party and one Republican a virtuous caretaker of our money speaks volumes of your ignorance.
Seriously, these are the same people who created the financial black hole known as Amtrak.
“Come one! Come all! Come see my wonderful new health care bureaucracy! Lower costs! Better care!”—-Barack Obama….
When the government tells you that they will lower costs and promise better care and coverage—-time to head for the hills….
Screwing the middle class for generations just to spite the insurance industry is not only bad policy and hypocritical, but it’s shit-ty governance.
kay
@Leelee for Obama:
Oh, I’m so sorry. You have had a really hard year.
I can’t give advice, Leelee. It’s against the rules.
Call a local solo practitioner or small firm local lawyer. Look for one that advertises all or part of the practice in bankruptcy, not because you have to file, but because they know credit cards. Tell him you want a half hour consult and tell him why, and then tell him what you can pay. Don’t be shy. Go as low as you have to, and name a number. Tell him the specific issue in one paragraph and see if he’ll help.
If she has a will, and a lawyer holds it, and will be probating it, call him. Just be straight and tell him you need free advice.
Again, I’m so sorry you lost your mother. I read where you had hospice in, but I didn’t know she died.
Leelee for Obama
@kay: Thanks Kay-I knew you couldn’t give me legal advice, I just needed exactly what you wrote. There’s no will and almost nothing money wise-I’ll check the Yellow pages and call someone nearby.
I posted about Mom passing, but then I kind of dropped out for a bit. My sister was here and now my Daughter comes a lot to help find the bottom of my apartment. I have to get back to work sometime not too far in the future and I’m trying to get into a CNA class so I can get a decent job sooner rather than later. It’s kind of exhausting-and I thought I was tired before!
I can’t really be sad about losing her, she was 90 years old, so I had her for much longer than most, and certainly longer than I ever expected. The Hospice was the most comforting place-I feel like I have family there. She didn’t seem to suffer much after she got there-they kept her out of pain and right before I signed the papers for that-she used every speck of her energy and her mind, I think, to tell me she loved me. You can’t ask for more than that, can you?
Thanks for the info-hope I can get this settled somehow-w/o too much trouble.
Leelee
kay
@Leelee for Obama:
You sound good, but frantic. I don’t think it’s fair that people have to mourn and deal with credit cards and train for a new job, at the same time.
You may have to call a coupla lawyers, but you’ll find one. Look for solos, smaller the better, and local. Make sure and tell her you live where she practices.
They’ll hope you’ll come back when you’re rich and famous :)
Nutella
@Leelee for Obama:
My sympathies on the loss of your mother.
IANAL, but one thing to keep very firmly in mind is that if the debt is your mother’s you are not obligated to pay it. Do not let the bank strong-arm you into paying any part of it. Keep on reminding them that payment comes out of the estate of the cardholder. If your mother’s estate doesn’t cover her debts, then they are out of luck.
Leelee for Obama
@kay:
Wouldn’t that be the absolute limit! ….I keep telling my Daughter we should do a video of us just talking about our crazy lives and then send it to Tina Fey; she’d be perfect as my Daughter-just the same kind of snarky attitude….then, a movie…then…Profit!
Thanks again, Kay. I really appreciate the help.
Leelee for Obama
@Nutella: Thank you, Nutella. I appreciate the condolences. As to the responsibility part, I had heard this but you know how nerve-wracking this kind of stuff can be. I just can’t seem to wrap my head around all the stuff I’ve got to do now. I’m trying to be methodical, but that’s not my usual MO. I usually fly by the seat of my pants-and now I feel so much older than I did 6 years ago when I first started taking care of my Mom. The years since then seem like eons- I think if I can get myself out into some kind of job, I’ll be so busy, it’ll help. What scares me is I usually waitress and in a recession that’s not the most secure place to be.
Time to “Stay Calm and Carry on”.
Neutron Flux
@PT Barnum: Yes to this. Exactly.
ruemara
If your job has an open enrollment period, you should be able to see the cost of each plan per month. I just double checked mine on my main, part-time job. As I am union, my employer puts aside $750 for my insurance, each month. Full timers pay $1400. I did the math for my job and went catatonic. No wonder companies go under & why the FARK do health insurance heads get millions per year? I can barely afford to use my insurance! I just told my periodontist I can’t afford a necessary surgery because the out of pocket is $3k. And my insurance is 2/3 of my paycheck. We are so screwed.
PurpleGirl
Leelee — sorry for you loss. (I lost my mother, who was 94, last January.)
I remember seeing something about paying for parent’s credit card debt on the net, and within in the past year. I don’t remember where it was but the gist of the posting was that you aren’t obligated to cover the debt. Further, banks make these demands when people are most vulnerable and they know some percentage will pay just to make the bank go away.
Leelee for Obama
@PurpleGirl: Thank you for the condolences, purple girl. And for the info-that seems to be the CW, but I will be making a few calls today to make sure-you are all so helpful and kind. I appreciate it.
dana
Government run health care – the so-called “public option” – presents serious challenges for us. The private sector and competitive market forces are the best means to meeting health care needs. Watch this video from the U.S. Chamber http://www.friendsoftheuschamber.com/media/
Mike
Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, wants to include a version of a government option called a co-op owned by insured members. What a wonderful idea says Mike Oliphant whom manages Utah health insurance plans for http://www.benefitsmanager.net/utah-group-health-insurance.htm . This may encourage competition from private health insurance carriers. But I fear it will fail ultimately if there is no TORT reform because the same liability costs that plague medical professionals and health insurance carriers will be like a fast cancer growth within the co-op plan. A government option wouldn’t allow legal suite against the plan but will with medical providers. Doesn’t anyone see that we need TORT reform to protect the cost outcome? See what Utah has done with health care reform http://www.ahealthinsurancequote.com/reform.html.