I thought I’d sneak a nice catch-all open threader in before John drops the dreaded “CBS Sunday Morning” open thread on us.
Here’s a question I’d like someone to answer for me: When people say there are no atheists in foxholes does that mean that no atheist would get into a foxhole in the first place or that the experience of being in a foxhole would make you turn religious?
And in keeping with a recent theme, here’s one of my favorite 70s videos.
Coke’s a hell of a drug.
Martin
The saying started with the latter (everyone prays when they are under fire) but ended with the former (foxholes are stupid places to be).
AhabTRuler
It means that Real Americans(TM) would shoot any atheists that they found in their foxholes. Its really about best foxhole practices.
Ecks
As someone said “an atheist is a man* with no invisible means of support”, and when people start shooting at you your standards for what count as support start dropping.
* It was a simpler time. And a more sexist one.
Polish the Guillotines
Fuck the Yankees.
(Isn’t it about time this phrase is entered into the BJ-Lexx?)
Ecks
That was meant to be a footnote starting with an asterisk, but wordpress in its wisdom decides that this really means bold.
Ecks
That belongs in the BJ lex as much as the phrase “nice weather today.”
DougJ
Yeah, fuck the Yankees.
Martin
FTFY
Gravenstone
Fuck the fucking Yankees. That is all.
kommrade reproductive vigor
It means some people assume that if a man starts shouting “OH GOD!” or “JESUS!” he’s suddenly become a believer.
Man, I have to find a way to get my Stone’s albums downloaded to the intrawebthingy box.
Mark S.
The latter.
Bonus question: Who first said it? I read one time Napoleon.
MikeJ
There are no baptists in foxholes because they’re a bunch of fucking pussies.
Mark S.
Apparently, wherever I read that, it was bullshit
Max Power
Sean Hannity is a foxhole.
pragmatic idealist
Read William Manchester’s Goodbye Darkness for a great account of an atheist in a foxhole.
wasabi gasp
In foxholes, God puts extra sprinkles on your cone.
Mark S.
My guess on the first BCS poll:
1. Florida
2. Alabama
3. Texas
4. USC
5. LSU
Fulcanelli
No Doug, religion’s the hell of a drug, and religion and the drug selling business have a lot in common the closer you look.
When there’s reason for foxholes being dug in actual American soil you might find me in one, on foreign soil, never. I’m more of a sniper on the rooftop kind of guy anyways.
General Winfield Stuck
Interesting question. All I know is one of the first things our drill sergeant told us was he hoped we’d given our souls to jeevus, cause our asses belonged to him. And he was right, at least about the second part.
Linkmeister
Dammit, what was the Angels second baseman doing trying to get an out at second?
Damn Yankees (and I don’t mean the play).
TenguPhule
And it’s also completely false.
I personally prefer laws of chance in a firehole under attack to a Genocidal Asshole who likes to dick people around.
NYLiberal
@ dougj – Ha ha – The Yankees
TenguPhule
Baptists have no pussies, only assholes.
Warren Terra
I always took it to mean the latter, that you may profess Atheism now, but once people start shooting at you you’ll start hoping and fervently believing that a magic man’s gonna save your hide, and you’ll start right quick.
And, as an Atheist, I always found the notion rather insulting. Of course, this is a country where the tender sensibilities of Atheists have never received much consideration in the public discourse, so there you are.
Little Macayla's Friend
Or:
When people say there are no
atheistslibertarians in foxholes does that mean that noatheistlibertarian would get into a foxhole in the first place or that the experience of being in a foxhole would make you turnreligiouslibertarian?Calouste
Shouldn’t it be that there are no members of the white-rich-brat-affirmative-action-program in foxholes because they are to busy getting deferments or having a cyst on their ass or campaigning for their daddy?
Mark S.
@Little Macayla’s Friend:
I have a lot easier time imagining atheists in foxholes than I do imagining libertarians. I wouldn’t trust the Fonzi of Freedom to have my back.
Is everyone already passed out?
Martin
V for Vendetta just started and Glenn Beck strikes a remarkable resemblance to Gordon Deitrich at the start of the film. Uncannily so including the invocation of tea party.
Seanly
I’ve always taken it to mean that no person who is having to hide in a foxhole could remain an atheist. The key gist of the idea is that with shells exploding all around that person would seek succor and protection from God.
MikeJ
I have been in a foxhole…I have certs that say I have…the helicopters didn’t laugh in the foxholes.
Polish the Guillotines
If there are no atheists in foxholes, then how do you explain the Red Army?
NYLiberal
@ dougj – You didn’t approve my silly sports post before? Ha ha, how childish. How old are you? You should really not take sports so seriously.
Comrade Kevin
@Polish the Guillotines:
Help me Angus Podgorny, you’re my only hope!
Ruckus
Coke is a hell of a drug. In all the ways that can be taken.
Not having been in an actual foxhole I can’t say for sure that I might not utter some words that taken out of context could be taken as religious. I also can’t imagine that being shot at in a foxhole is different than any other time so I’d say that it isn’t getting shot at that would make me religious. Maybe it’s the being in the foxhole and not the getting shot at. No that can’t be right. Let’s see, what else could change a mind this stubborn about this subject?
MelodyMaker
“believe or die” is how I’ve always heard it. Or “godless? What if I give you a dose of fear for your very existence? Atheist this, MF.” Doesn’t make any sense, but it’s a product of the authoritarian bully syndrome. Words can be powerful weapons, and zealots master the art. I don’t know why. Prince of Peace and all that doesn’t factor.
DougJ, man, thanks for the vid. What a great band. How does that happen? God, maybe?
Mornington Crescent
“‘There are no atheists in foxholes’ is one of the best arguments in favor of atheism that I’ve come across.
Brachiator
@kommrade reproductive vigor:
Or having an orgasm.
What happens in foxholes stays in foxholes.
NutellaonToast
One time, I fucked a hot chick and I was an atheist in a fox’s hole so I think it’s just bullshit.
NutellaonToast
OK, that’s actually a lie. I’ve never fucked a hot chick
KC
Not to detract from the Yankee-bashing, as I am only occasionally an interloper here (and I don’t like them either), but there is no Bitsy ad on the front page to click on for today’s vote and I don’t have the site bookmarked. Any help out there?
Martin
@KC:
FTFY
MelodyMaker
of course, there’s gotta be a left-handed black gay bassist who sings about god and jesus. hmm. Really? I’ve seen these guys a few times. They’re fkn great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORjtvS_O3Ac
King’s X Live 10.19.1998 “Over My Head” (Song 14, part 2)
“If you don’t love yourself, you can’t love nobody else.”
MelodyMaker
bass? seriously?
Joshua Norton
You know what you don’t find in foxholes? Foxes. Go figure.
pragmatic idealist
In Manchester’s account his combat experiences are so intense he actually starts hallucinating in a foxhole. It follows that there have been many deeply religious experiences in combat.
BethanyAnne
from my .sig files:
—
“There are no atheists in foxholes” isn’t an argument against atheism, it’s an argument against foxholes.
-James Morrow
—
freelancer
I love the internet.
Chuck Butcher
I’d hope that as the shells started landing all around my hole and I shouted, “Well, Fuck me!” the guy next to me wouldn’t take it literally.
Little Macayla's Friend
@KC:
Week 11 voting just ended and the website needs a few minutes for transitioning to week 12 voting. She might have had 3380 ? votes, but I’m doing 3 different things badly here.
Try http://www.cutestdogcompetition.com/vote.cfm?h=08C91FF88447651C43B224AF9FFC1E6E
Ad is there for me with IE 8 and XP, and all active x controls denied.
JackieBinAZ
Because apparently, nothing proves the existence of God better than really bad fucking shit happening to you.
I’m just adding an edit because I CAN!!
Ruckus
@JackieBinAZ:
Let’s see no existence so all the crap happening in my lifetime must not be that bad of fucking shit then.
MelodyMaker
@freelancer:
Good one! Cobain’s tunes will age well, IMO.
I’m getting married to this cutie. Have to meet her first, of course, but.. I’ll just give her my “Heart Shaped Box” and every other song I know in drop-D. How can she say no?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5yEv2r2Iug
Lucy Michelle & The Velvet Lapelles – Connect The Dots
Ruckus
So how close to actual death do you have to get to be an actual believer?
MelodyMaker
you have to be god to know that.
and you have to be a fucking dick to claim to know it.
Ruckus
@MelodyMaker:
Likey
That’s 100 points on the blog-O-meter.
Yutsano
@Ruckus: Just remember: only Kevin Smith had the wisdom to have God be from Canada.
Balconesfault
I’m just wondering if this means the dirty rotten commies didn’t use foxholes?
MikeJ
@Joshua Norton:
really?
Ruckus
@Yutsano:
Don’t get the Kevin Smith ref. googled – no luck with that.
God is from Canada. Do the Canadian atheists know about that?
@Balconesfault:
maybe not but the may use стрелковая ячейка
And no I’m not sure. I got this off a web translator.
MelodyMaker
@Ruckus:
I’m watching/listening to the vid on your linked site. Kick ass.
Yutsano
@Ruckus: Dogma. End of movie. Alanis Morrisette plays God. Wifey will back me up on this one.
Ruckus
@MelodyMaker:
Try their channel on YouTube. The one I posted is my fav but the others are very interesting
MelodyMaker
way back in the 90’s, I worked with an Amiga. Bars and Pipes was the best software I’ve ever seen for MIDI. Microsoft bought it and shitcanned it. amirite?
MelodyMaker
Bud Cort.
MelodyMaker
Rundgren tried to do something approaching interactive with “No World Order.”
Anne Laurie
@Ruckus:
@Yutsano:
And God’s answer, via Dogma, to why so much horrible horrible stuff happens here in Hir creation?
.
.
.
.
.
“Oops!”
I love that movie.
Ruckus
@Yutsano:
So that fixes it. God is Canadian. I was going to go with John Candy but if you say Alanis.
So now I’m convinced. There is a god. And who’d thunk, not a foxhole in sight. Or a стрелковая ячейка either.
Yutsano
@Anne Laurie: For me the best part of that movie (and that’s sorting through a lot, there’s a TON of good shtuff in there) is the disclaimer at the beginning where Kevin Smith asks not to be excommunicated. That was pure comedic genius.
Ruckus
So who sleeps better, true believers or atheists?
I’d say true believers because they know they will be saved.
But if I was a true believer I think I’d never sleep for fear of missing the whatever.
Hmmmm…….Submitted for your approval.
Ruckus
@Anne Laurie:
So now you’re forcing me to see this movie.
Added at Netflix
freelancer
Here’s an obscure one,
Jon Hiatt – Cry Love.
Those of you who get it will know exactly why I posted this.
Yutsano
@Ruckus: Right now? Me (and I’m a theist, though I do not submit myself as a representative sample). Pleasant eve/morning to all!
Ruckus
Off myself
Been fun
Next time
freelancer
@Ruckus:
What is it about this place that gets people that depressed?
MelodyMaker
@freelancer:
Not sure I “get it”, but I love it. thanks.
reminds me of an old gf. I like the dropped beats.
Smart, smart smart.
MelodyMaker
now I haz a sad. must be the turkey.
Martin
There are no true believers. They always doubt, if they didn’t they wouldn’t work so hard at the faith thing.
Atheists sleep fine – they have no doubts. Agnostics might lie awake, however.
Robert Waldmann
I’m sure it means that the experience of being in a foxhole makes you religious.
I’m quite sure the assertion is false. I have never been in a foxhole, but I was once fairly sure I was at great risk of dying (I fell halfway down a waterfall and was clining to a wet branch with my fingers slowly slipping). I didn’t get religion*.
My guess is that the people who say that there are no atheists in foxholes don’t know many atheists. I’d also guess they haven’t been in many foxholes (most people haven’t thank … uh fortunately).
On the other hand, I have always been atheist. Maybe someone who had religion and lost it would have found it again.
By the way, it turns out it isn’t that deadly to fall down a small waterfall as the water carves away rock and makes a nice pool full of bubbles at the bottom (but don’t try this at home kids). That thought didn’t come to me either. I mean look if I had been thinking straight what would I have been doing half way down a waterfall to begin with.
MelodyMaker
that John Hiatt is great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvXhPKRyr7c
I’m not so good at hearing the message in lyrics. Whatcha gonna do? Get a guy in your band to play mandolin? check. sweet.
Nethead Jay
@freelancer: Thanks for that link. Love Hiatt and that’s a great song.
josephdietrich
In my experience, those who say things like this think that atheists don’t really disbelieve that gods exist. Instead, they think that atheists deny the existence of gods and magic out of some hidden spite, possibly the result of trauma in childhood. However, when push comes to shove, atheists will be praying just like everyone else because in fact they secretly know the Truth™.
It’s utter bulljive, but it’s a very common belief.
Ruckus
@freelancer:
Sometimes depressed but usually I come around after an evening on BJ. Too manies good music, good food, good pets, good kids, good people.
Now really got to get some sleep. Or at least try.
RedKitten
Nope. I sleep like a log.
MikeJ
@RedKitten: Of course the joke is that dyslexic agnostics lie awake at night wondering if there really is a dog.
Sly
I always found this contrasting view somewhat interesting:
Would you feel more at ease putting your life in the hands of someone (a surgeon, a soldier, what have you) who was fervently religious, or feel more at ease with someone who had absolutely no belief in the supernatural, particularly the possibility of life after death?
Personally, if I were in a foxhole, I’d want as many atheists around me as humanly possible. Especially in the medical corps.
HRA
Sometimes one can take a phrase or saying and rip it to shreds while attempting to make sense out of it while it means nothing more than what you would say of “war is hell”.
Svensker
@TenguPhule:
You know, there are a lot of people who are Baptists who are assholes. And there are a lot of people who are Baptists who are good, thoughtful and generous people. Like my aunt and her late, wonderful husband.
Svensker
@Polish the Guillotines:
Exactly. Where are they now?
Steeplejack
Just voted for Bitsy and put her up to 99 for the new week. Anyone know how she ended up last week?
Raw weather continues here in D.C.–40s, rain, maybe a hint of snow mixed in. WTF? A good day to stay inside and do nothing. Or I may go to Micro Center and look at gadgets. But by Wednesday the temp is supposed to be up to 70° again. WTF?
ericblair
@josephdietrich: In my experience, those who say things like this think that atheists don’t really disbelieve that gods exist.
For fundies yes, mostly because said fundie would then have to at least acknowlege the concept that God might not exist, which for fundies is serious thoughtcrime. So instead, atheists don’t REALLY disbelieve the existence of God, they just reject him so they can have the buttsex or abortions or square dancing or whatever horrible deviation they insist on wallowing in.
So, the basic fundie strategy for turning atheists is to tell them how amazingly powerful God is and that he’s going to kick their asses for not worshiping Him. Of course, if you actually don’t believe in God, this has the same power as being told that Darth Vader is going to crush your nuts if you don’t turn to the Dark Side.
Bhaal
There was no atheist in a foxhole
And men who never prayed before
Lifted tired and bloodshot eyes to heaven
And begged the Lord to end that awful war
-When The Atom Bomb Fell: Karl & Harty [1946]
http://www.atomicplatters.com/more.php?id=59_0_1_0_M
dan robinson
Rip This Joint is the ring tone on my cell phone. Most people don’t know the song.
That looked like the Mick Taylor, so this was pre-1974 Stones.
Wilson Heath
I thought the idea was that having shells exploding all around you and holding the pile of small intestines that used to be your buddy, you would get that warm, glowing feeling that there is a benign, orderly guiding force in the universe and a god that loves you personally, who died so we could all be nice to each other that is making this all possible.
Absurd? Maybe, but no more so then all the other bullsh!t spouting from the mouths of these loons.
Warren Terra
@ ericblair
That gets into the “be good because God Is Watching” school of morality, which is not impressive. I’d much rather people do right b/c of the Categorical Imperative than b/c they fear God.
Stan of the Sawgrass
OK, I admit I just scanned the previous posts, but did anyone catch On the Media’s (NPR radio from WNYC) “One-Sentence Novels” contest last year (I think?)
This entry was a fave:
The priest shouted, “There are no atheists in foxholes, so get out!”
Roger, FCD
As a former Marine, I spent some time in a foxhole and heard the Atheists’n’Foxhole’s quite a bit. My response was always: “There are no atheist suicide bombers either.”
DPirate
Athiests heads are bigger than a fox. They don’t fit.
georgia pig
My dad spent plenty of time in foxholes in WWII, and he was an atheist, so there’s some contrary evidence. He said you were more likely to hear some one calling out for their momma than for jesus.
DougJ
That looked like the Mick Taylor, so this was pre-1974 Stones.
Yeah, it’s Fort Worth 1972. The whole show is on YouTube.
Little Macayla's Friend
@Steeplejack:
Looked like 3380 five minutes before week 12.
/BJ clock.
Uncle Glenny
The phrase is completely backwards. Only atheists would hide in foxholes; for the true believers, Jeebus and his Angels divert the missiles.
Check out the video at
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/10/16/103527/90
to listen to who is giving spiritual advice to Obama.
Lettuce
I’m an atheist, therefore I am a believer in some things, like life.
Are there no atheists in foxholes? I haven’t been in one, but I’d assume that they exist… Just about the same percentage of the population.
Not that that phrase makes sense.
Bruce Webb
@kommrade reproductive vigor:
I have yet to actually use it but I bought one of these: http://www.ionaudio.com/ionttusb
It rips your vinyl right to disk via USB whereupon you can just listen or burn it to CD or download to your portable device. And there is software that will allow you to match it with song titles and album art.
It looks good, I am just too lazy to actually get started converting my own vinyl.
LanceThruster
Re: athiests/foxholes – if imminent danger is supposed to scare you into god’s arms, why do terrible tragedies make many *lose* their faith? Seems like believing is based on delivering the goods (or a hope/promise thereof) but if invisible sky daddy doesn’t come through, he/she/it/they get the boot.
“If you pray for rain long enough, it eventually does fall. If you pray for floodwaters to abate, they eventually do. The same happens in the absence of prayers.” ~ Steve Allen, quoted in 2000 Years of Disbelief, Famous People with the Courage to Doubt
maskling
i am an atheist. i have been in foxholes and blast shelters in iraq and afghanistan. it did not effect my atheism, even when the bombs were going off.
there are plenty of atheists in foxholes. it’s hard to run when you are on your knees praying, you know.
James Lindley
In re atheists in foxholes:
It’s a mistake to take a profanity for a profession.
former CW4
Steeplejack
@Little Macayla’s Friend:
Thanks for the update.