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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Meditations in an Emergency

Meditations in an Emergency

by DougJ|  October 18, 200910:00 pm| 123 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

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Fun facts: if Joan Holloway from “Mad Men” were a real person, she would be two years younger than David Broder. Pete Campbell would be four years older than Marty Peretz.

I recommend following the Paul Krugman/Brad DeLong tag-team smackdown of the Superfreakaonomics duo. There’s something profound to be said about it all, but I’m too lazy to be precise and not drunk enough to let it rip.

Another open thread. Sorry we’re lazy this weekend. I don’t like this time of year.

Update. Miss Farrell scares the hell out of me.

Update update. Felix Salmon has more on Freakonomics.

Update update update. Felix Salmon’s original review of Freakonomics is brilliant, one of the best blog posts I’ve ever read anywhere. It’s difficult to summarize, but here’s one of the last paragraphs:

At heart, Freakonomics is not a book about economics at all: it’s a book about a hero who can ask the right questions and uncover the truth. Once you’ve read it, you’ll know lots of interesting facts you didn’t know before. But it won’t make you stop and think (stopping and thinking is the job of the hero), and it certainly won’t “literally redefine the way we view the modern world,” as the jacket copy has it. You know how that crack gang was just like McDonald’s? Well, this book is too. You finish it off quickly, but end up vaguely dissatisfied: all the added sweeteners and calories serve to mask the fact that there’s very little protein or nutritional value.

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Reader Interactions

123Comments

  1. 1.

    Ben Richards

    October 18, 2009 at 10:04 pm

    What’s not to like??? The weather? Move south! Austin TX would do you right Dougj!

  2. 2.

    DougJ

    October 18, 2009 at 10:05 pm

    What’s not to like??? The weather? Move south! Austin TX would do you right Dougj!

    I didn’t like it when I lived in California either.

  3. 3.

    JGabriel

    October 18, 2009 at 10:06 pm

    DougJ:

    … I’m too lazy to be precise and not drunk enough to let it rip.

    Come back when yer drunker.

    .

  4. 4.

    Mark S.

    October 18, 2009 at 10:12 pm

    I’ve never read Freakenomics, but I hate that wankery. My all-time favorite was a Slate economist arguing that we shouldn’t do anything about global warming:

    If you expect economic growth to continue at the average annual rate of 2.3 percent, to which we’ve grown accustomed, then in 400 years, the average American will have an income of more than $1 million per day—and that’s in the equivalent of today’s dollars (i.e., after correcting for inflation). Does it really make sense for you and me to sacrifice for the benefit of those future gazillionaires?

    He even makes the argument that we might all get killed by an asteroid. The whole piece is so godawful that I have to bring it up on various blogs every couple of months.

  5. 5.

    DougJ

    October 18, 2009 at 10:14 pm

    He even makes the argument that we might all get killed by an asteroid. The whole piece is so godawful that I have to bring it up on various blogs every couple of months.

    Not him. He teaches where I do.

  6. 6.

    Sentient Puddle

    October 18, 2009 at 10:24 pm

    Bah, the only thing wrong with Austin weather is the summer…

  7. 7.

    Cydney

    October 18, 2009 at 10:30 pm

    Whoa, David Broder is from Chicago Heights. I’m from Chicago Heights; that’s weirdly exciting

  8. 8.

    MikeJ

    October 18, 2009 at 10:34 pm

    BTW, fuck comcast those stupid pieces of shit. Those fucking assmunchers are intercepting dns failures and redirecting to their own advertising pages, breaking all the protocols the internet was built on. Fuck them fuck them fuck them.

    Jesus fuck I hate people who can’t follow public protocols.

  9. 9.

    Mark S.

    October 18, 2009 at 10:36 pm

    Man, I can’t believe how much the computers like Boise State. Probably because they also like Oregon.

  10. 10.

    Polish the Guillotines

    October 18, 2009 at 10:36 pm

    @DougJ:

    I didn’t like it when I lived in California either.

    Hey, man… Don’t dis Cali weather. We’ve got three seasons: gray, green, and brown.

    +2

  11. 11.

    jl

    October 18, 2009 at 10:37 pm

    I like to be optimistic and try to look on the bright side of things. This is Superfreak economics mess is coming at just the right time. As an economist, if I put a bag over my head when I go out of my home this time of year, people may think I’m trick-or-treating and give me some candy.

    Has to be some other upside, but cannot think of it right now. Suggestions would be appreciated.

  12. 12.

    Morbo

    October 18, 2009 at 10:39 pm

    @MikeJ: Hate to say it, but that pretty much is the protocol now.

  13. 13.

    Polish the Guillotines

    October 18, 2009 at 10:40 pm

    @MikeJ:

    BTW, fuck comcast those stupid pieces of shit. Those fucking assmunchers are intercepting dns failures and redirecting to their own advertising pages, breaking all the protocols the internet was built on. Fuck them fuck them fuck them.

    Amen (for many other reasons). They sent an opt-out email over the summer. I made sure to do it.

  14. 14.

    MikeJ

    October 18, 2009 at 10:42 pm

    @Morbo: Bullshit. The protocol is when DNS doesn’t find a match it returns an error code. That’s what error codes are for. I can’t code for every piece of shit isp to put up their own goddamned hijacking page.

  15. 15.

    Brian J

    October 18, 2009 at 10:53 pm

    A few reflections on the dust up concerning Freakanomics and its sequel, which you could all disregard if you like since I haven’t read either book:

    1. I’m almost inclined to believe there’s more to the story than people like DeLong and Krugman are making it seem, not because those calling Levitt and Dubner out are dishonest or catty, but since you’d think the authors would like to protect their reputations. Maybe I’m too naive or idealistic, but I feel as if academics are a bit touchy when it comes to having their integrity questioned.

    2. I’ve always suspected the style of thinking reflected in these books was a little too clever. People should always think outside the box, but not simply to get noticed.

    3. Maybe this is a sign that some on the right–at least more than we imagined–are, well, full of it. I mean, these guys don’t strike me as dumb, like Sean Hannity does, so if they have the intelligence to do careful, intelligent work, why is the final product seemingly so shoddy?

  16. 16.

    Brian J

    October 18, 2009 at 10:57 pm

    As an economist…

    I don’t expect you to reveal the intimate details of your life, but if you don’t mind me asking, what sort of economist are you? What sort of setting do you work in? I ask because I still think about the time I wanted to be an economist, but unfortunately, as I learned the hard way, I don’t have the skills to be one. I still find it very interesting.

  17. 17.

    MikeJ

    October 18, 2009 at 10:58 pm

    academics are a bit touchy when it comes to having their integrity questioned.

    Only a lying pedophile would think that.

  18. 18.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 18, 2009 at 10:59 pm

    Dueling open threads yet again, DougJ?

    I LOVE this time of year. Love, love, love it. Will love it even more in a couple of months.

  19. 19.

    General Winfield Stuck

    October 18, 2009 at 11:02 pm

    It’s always been freakanomics to me.

  20. 20.

    Common Sense

    October 18, 2009 at 11:04 pm

    The only thing wrong with Texas weather is the summer. The only problem with a Texas summer is that it lasts for six months.

    October-March? Beautiful.

    April-September? Oven.

  21. 21.

    jl

    October 18, 2009 at 11:07 pm

    @Brian J: A response to your reflections:

    1) I don’t know what counts as questioning integrity in other fields, but I think DeLong and Krugman are questioning the authors’ judgment and (er… heh heh) competence. Which is bad enough. For example, Krugman accuses Levitt and Dubner of misunderstanding a paper by Weitzman. But regardless of the math, Weitzman explains what his point is in very plain English: If there is small chance of catastrophe, most rational economic decison rules say that as that small chance of disaster grows, avoiding catastrophe needs to be included in decision making, not just the expected or average outcome. How did the authors misunderstand the plain English of the article?

    The authors’ may be scared that they have trashed their own reputations, and have good reason not to be touchy.

    2) Agreed about that kind of economics book. They need to go away. They are just-so stories. The always avoid the problems in applying economics, and always avoid the problems of finding out whether the propsoed just-so stories are true. Good riddance.

    3) I dunno about that. Economics has some weaknesses. For example, in neo-classical economics you have to be in economic equilibrium to make any positive or normative statement whatever. But economists just assume we move from one equilibrium to another instantly, even though it is known that many times economic equilibria are unstable, unreachable, and sometimes not even computable. So, there are many aspects to understanding equilibria that economists are not familiar with at all. That might be why they appeared to have flubbed the solar panel analysis (I haven’t had time to read the chapter downloaded from DeLong’s blog yet). there are plenty of good articles that explain how the greenhouse gas equlibrating process works, what are the important factors and time scales, but they may not have known it was important to understand them.

  22. 22.

    jl

    October 18, 2009 at 11:10 pm

    @Brian J: I am an economic statistician, or applied econometrician, as they say in the trade. My job description is to estimate economic relationships and verify, or test, economic theories. I went into that speciality because they are not required to believe the theories. We have a special exemption.

  23. 23.

    General Winfield Stuck

    October 18, 2009 at 11:10 pm

    I love this time of year here, but gawd I hated it back east with the damp cold. And despite the humidity on the Gulf coast I loved it there too. Thunderstorms the year round was nirvana for me. And during the winter month of Jan. sometimes a thick but warm fog would settle in and last for weeks. It was like living on your little planetoid. The only thing you saw and people you met were those that crossed your path within a 50 foot radius or so of wherever you were.

  24. 24.

    Brian J

    October 18, 2009 at 11:16 pm

    @jl:

    In response to basically everything you said, that’s what makes this so puzzling. Nobody would accuse these guys of being dumb, so when they make what appears to be pretty significant errors, it just doesn’t make any sense. You’d think they’d want to protect their reputations and would thus be extremely careful in what they say. Apparently not, if what we are seeing is any indication. So I’m led to believe that they either (a) got too wrapped up in being cute to notice any problems or (b) have some sort of agenda where they don’t give a shit if they inject nonsense into the debate.

  25. 25.

    Nicole

    October 18, 2009 at 11:17 pm

    I like Mad Men. I wish Pete Campbell’s, “A thing like that!” could be my ringtone.

    I also like this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GlJbyMrytA

  26. 26.

    Yutsano

    October 18, 2009 at 11:26 pm

    @asiangrrlMN: I can maybe wish you for some white stuff to fall out of the sky? And no I don’t mean a Colombian dealer dumping his load afraid of Canadian customs. :)

  27. 27.

    El Cid

    October 18, 2009 at 11:32 pm

    Yeah, but wouldn’t you rather read and chat about some dude who told you that the really important stuff about economics was really how tiny actions lead to surprising results, and thus abortion is great for crime control, rather than a bunch of real economists (what tiny few there are) hashing things out often based on boring old understanding of what happened 70 years ago as opposed to exciting reworkings of Reaganite pseudo-insights?

  28. 28.

    jl

    October 18, 2009 at 11:34 pm

    @Brian J: Well, as an economist, I have decided, in order preseve my self-esteem, to take the position that being ‘dumb’ is relative. In a particular relative to one’s training.

    To focus on the notion of equlibrium, for example. Economics has very little theory of how to operationalize the notion of an economic equilibrium. General equilibrium on all markets, which is needed to advocate an unregualted free market social policy, cannot in general be identified from empirical data, may not be stable, may not in general be reachable from nonequilibrium states. But economists just assume that society moves from one equilibrium state to another instantaneously. When this seems unreasonable, they wave their hands and guess.

    Understanding how equilibrium is approached, and tracking the feedback loops, all the while abiding by the discipline of using stable and operational rules for connecting empirical measurements of stable things in the outside world to theoretical constructs is unfamiliar territory for many very smart economists. They may not have even have known that quite a few articles tackle this problem, identify the important feeback loops, explore the implications for the level of uncertainty that will always exist in the near term (say next century) in estimates of the effects of global warming. A very smart person who rushes into an unfamilar field can get over their head pretty quickly, and not even realize that they are making elementary mistakes.

    They may have just gotten in over their heads without knowing it.

    I am very interested in reading their bit on the economics of solar panels. There, I think a misunderstanding of the appropriate equilibrium concept mislead them. (in edit, they looked at it purely as a flow equilibrium, and not as the long term stock and flow equilibirum, to put it in economic terms)

  29. 29.

    valdivia

    October 18, 2009 at 11:35 pm

    I think it was Chait that had a great article a few years ago slaughtering this trend in economics of focusing of counterintuitive bs. I am going to dig it up and link it here. It was very good.

  30. 30.

    valdivia

    October 18, 2009 at 11:37 pm

    here it is. How Freakonomics is ruining economics. Even if it was on TNR it is still a great article.

  31. 31.

    Oikrusty

    October 18, 2009 at 11:38 pm

    There is a place for snarky contrarianism for its own sake, and it is on High School debate teams. Slate and H-Post seem to be addicted to this, and TNR went a little nutty/slutty in the Sullivan years. (McCaughey? MURRAY?!?) First book struck me as very… overhyped. This one looks like something out of Bill Maher’s oh-so-contrary “vaccines are poison!” bullshit.

    Fine ‘Blog, by the way.

  32. 32.

    Oikrusty

    October 18, 2009 at 11:39 pm

    Delete one of them, please. Caught typo on painfully slow laptop.

  33. 33.

    Yutsano

    October 18, 2009 at 11:43 pm

    I feel compelled to quote Douglas Adams here (and forgive me for butchering it, I can’t exactly Google it at this moment):

    “Magrathea is a fairy story. It’s something parents tell their children when they want them to grow up to become economists.”

  34. 34.

    Brian J

    October 18, 2009 at 11:48 pm

    @jl:

    I completely understand what you are saying, but I think there’s more to it than you are letting on. Nobody would be pissing all over these guys if they made some interesting observations that turned out to be wrong, nor would anyone be particularly shocked if they came up with some ludicrous claims if they didn’t have supposedly good reputations and, in Levitt’s case, things like a Clark Medal. It’s certainly reasonable to expect more from people like Levitt based on his academic background. I could go on, but the basic idea is that nobody would confuse these guys with, say, Sarah Palin or Michael Steele.

    Even if you grant them the possibility that they may not realize they are in over their heads, which doesn’t seem outrageous, I still don’t like it as an excuse. This wasn’t some response in an interview but instead a book which, one would think, went through a lot of editing. How is it that they ended up with this product? Doesn’t basic academic decency demand than you rest on pretty damn solid ground before making a claim?

  35. 35.

    El Cid

    October 18, 2009 at 11:50 pm

    @valdivia: That really was great.

  36. 36.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 18, 2009 at 11:52 pm

    @Yutsano: Yes! You do that, and I won’t make you wear a dress to my next wedding!

    Correction: If you can actually make it snow, and it’s more than a dusting, and it lasts more than a day.

  37. 37.

    valdivia

    October 18, 2009 at 11:53 pm

    @El Cid:

    yeah it was Schreiber, not Chait but he brought on the snark and cut to the heart of the problem.

  38. 38.

    Yutsano

    October 18, 2009 at 11:56 pm

    @asiangrrlMN: AARGH! THE PRESSURE! And I was gonna offer to come up with some really nummy bruschetta toppings for you too! (Hey I got some competition in the cooking department here I gotta get some genuine cooking bonafides out of the way! Too bad I couldn’t mail you the leftovers from the eggplant parmigana from last night, YUMM-O!!)

  39. 39.

    jl

    October 18, 2009 at 11:58 pm

    @Brian J: If they did mess up, it was on a very important topic that is currently being debated in Congress and in other governments around the world, at a very critical time. So, if they did mess up, I would not excuse them, and did not mean to say that.

    I thought you you were saying that they may have lacked integrity, which I interpreted to mean that they knowingly slanted their argument to their ideology or for career purposes. I said they may have lacked judgment. The latter fault may turn out to be as bad as the former in this case.

    I hope their claims get a vigorous examination. I said in a previous thread that if they did goof up as badly as some are charging, the responsible thing to do would be to recall the first printing and rewrite the chapter. If that cannot be done, they should revise the book asap, and issue a correction in the meantime. So, I do not think there are any grounds for excusing them if they cannot back up their claims with a good analysis.

  40. 40.

    Brian J

    October 19, 2009 at 12:03 am

    @jl:

    Very well said.

  41. 41.

    El Cid

    October 19, 2009 at 12:04 am

    @valdivia: I don’t think it’s mere coincidence that there is a dance between vapid “hey look it’s contrarian!” right-favoring economics and a recent history, complained about much by Krugman (among the most notable complainers), of fashionable pro-upper class economics and particularly economics writing just giving up on the actual “economics” part entirely.

  42. 42.

    Roger Moore

    October 19, 2009 at 12:07 am

    @Brian J:

    You’d think they’d want to protect their reputations and would thus be extremely careful in what they say.

    And Alan Greenspan expected that executives would always protect the long-term interests of their companies. Sometimes people are not rational actors, or the factors that go into their rational choices are different from what you expect with the inevitable difference in outcome. For example, the Superfreakonomics guys may have decided that they’re now pundits, with all the insulation from the consequences of getting stuff wrong that implies. In that case, they may have rationally decided that the best course is to say things that are outlandish in the hopes of drawing eyeballs rather than things that are true in the hopes of burnishing their reputations.

  43. 43.

    jeffreyw

    October 19, 2009 at 12:08 am

    @asiangrrlMN:

    I can make it snow, sorta.

  44. 44.

    jwb

    October 19, 2009 at 12:09 am

    @Sentient Puddle: But the allergies in Austin are god-awful.

  45. 45.

    scarshapedstar

    October 19, 2009 at 12:14 am

    OT:

    The meth lab demographic speaks out.

    Why isn’t Obama reaching out to real Americans like him?

    [/Bobo]

  46. 46.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 19, 2009 at 12:15 am

    @Yutsano: Eggplant parmigana? Ooooh, yummmmmmm. Tell you what. You and FH#1 agree to cater for my next wedding, and I’ll not mention the phrase ‘red, strapless dress’ to you again. How does that sound?

  47. 47.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 19, 2009 at 12:18 am

    @jeffreyw: You cook, and you can make it snow? You know what this means! You’re at the head of my list to be my fake-spouse #3!

    @scarshapedstar: Because he doesn’t want to catch whatever they have?

  48. 48.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 19, 2009 at 12:24 am

    @asiangrrlMN: Aaah, I hate fucking typos. Parmigiana!

  49. 49.

    valdivia

    October 19, 2009 at 12:30 am

    @El Cid:

    yeah not coincidence.

  50. 50.

    Brick Oven Bill

    October 19, 2009 at 12:30 am

    Do not doubt Brick Oven.

    Back 10 months ago it noted that domestic Army exercises to de-arm the civilian population would lead to nothing good.

    Validation!

    “An incident in February, in rural Iowa, not inside the Washington Beltway, motivated a man named Steward Rhodes to start Oath Keepers. He questioned why the Iowa National Guard planned to use residents of a small town to participate in training on door-to-door searches for weapons.”

    Now here we are, in October, and the military and police are reflecting upon their Oaths. Shame. Now it tops the Drudge Report.

  51. 51.

    TenguPhule

    October 19, 2009 at 12:33 am

    Now here we are, in October, and the military and police are reflecting upon their Oaths. Shame. Now it tops the Drudge Report.

    This has been another edition of BOB’s Bullshit.

  52. 52.

    Anne Laurie

    October 19, 2009 at 12:36 am

    @jl:

    I went into that speciality because they are not required to believe the theories. We have a special exemption…
    ___
    … as an economist, I have decided, in order preseve my self-esteem, to take the position that being ‘dumb’ is relative. In particular relative to one’s training.

    My theory, as a fairly well-read person with a distaste for mathematics, is that too many of today’s most successful economists are the modern equivalent of the medieval Scholasticists. They have an overarching quasi-religious Grand Universal Theory of Everything, and their lives are dedicated to making all human endeavor “magnify” that GUTE. Lots of very very smart, creative, driven humans who in previous centuries would have become notable Torah scholars or highly-placed Jesuit theologians are now writing economic textbooks. The problem for the rest of us (as the historians can explain) is that while questions about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or how many human capital units can be sacrificed for a predicted n+ increase in next quarter’s earnings report, are harmless as academic exercises, the real-world implementation of Scholastist ‘answers’ can be extremely dangerous.

  53. 53.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 19, 2009 at 12:36 am

    Hey, general question for music people. Anyone know of a song with lyrics about being detached from oneself?

  54. 54.

    Yutsano

    October 19, 2009 at 12:36 am

    @asiangrrlMN: Only if you agree to bring Jeffrey along for the catering duties as well. I foresee a blending of culinary styles that will make the Food Network knocking down our doors. Plus it might head off any potential jealousy issues (I hear wives are notorious for that).

  55. 55.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 19, 2009 at 12:39 am

    @Yutsano: Heh. I’ll let Jeffrey cater if he is not the one I’m fake-marrying! Whee! Another fake-wedding to plan! Pretty funny for someone who has no desire to marry in real life.

  56. 56.

    TenguPhule

    October 19, 2009 at 12:40 am

    My theory, as a fairly well-read person with a distaste for mathematics, is that too many of today’s most successful economists are the modern equivalent of the medieval Scholasticists. They have an overarching quasi-religious Grand Universal Theory of Everything, and their lives are dedicated to making all human endeavor “magnify” that GUTE.

    My Theory is that most of them wanted to make a lot of money without having to study or put in a lot of effort and lacked the looks and connections to get into show business or corporate leadership.

  57. 57.

    Yutsano

    October 19, 2009 at 12:42 am

    @asiangrrlMN: Just from that general idea I’m thinking Tracy Chapman, but “This Point In My Life” doesn’t quite fit. Ah well it’s still a good excuse to link it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oIsfrC3msc

  58. 58.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 19, 2009 at 12:43 am

    @Anne Laurie: Can you work an ‘L’ word into your theory, between the G and the U? Like Grand Lame Unified Theory of Everything? Oh, and then add an ‘S’ to the end? Grand Lame Unified Theory of Everything Stupid?

  59. 59.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 19, 2009 at 12:47 am

    @Yutsano: Yeah, not quite right, but gorgeous song.

    I need more of a “I wish I could leave myself” song.

  60. 60.

    Yutsano

    October 19, 2009 at 12:53 am

    @asiangrrlMN: Dammit, I’m pretty sure there’s a song by that exact title out there. Gonna do some exploration and get back to you.

  61. 61.

    Little Macayla's Friend

    October 19, 2009 at 12:54 am

    Real world economics – Bitsy is at 457 votes.

  62. 62.

    CMcD

    October 19, 2009 at 1:00 am

    @asiangrrlMN: How about “Everybody’s Talkin'” by Nilsson (from “Midnight Cowboy”)?

    @Yutsano: love that whole Tracy Chapman album. “Smoke and Ashes”

  63. 63.

    CMcD

    October 19, 2009 at 1:06 am

    @asiangrrlMN: “I Want to Vanish” by Elvis Costello?

  64. 64.

    Betsy

    October 19, 2009 at 1:06 am

    Hi folks. I’m visiting family in NM, and the coyotes just started howling all around the house. Strange sound.

  65. 65.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 19, 2009 at 1:09 am

    @CMcD: This is perfect. I love Elvis Costello, and the sentiment is spot-on. Thank you.

    Yutsano, there’s a Greek song that translate into that phrase. Is that what you meant?

  66. 66.

    Yutsano

    October 19, 2009 at 1:10 am

    @Betsy: If you have small critters (cats, small dogs), keep them close inside no matter how much they beg to go outside. We think they’re cute, coyotes call them snacks.

  67. 67.

    jl

    October 19, 2009 at 1:12 am

    @Anne Laurie: I knew I would regret typing those things. Looks like a lot of economist bashing going around tonight!

    The issues you raise about scholasticism and economics are far above my pay grade. But, it appears to me that you are a Rosenbergian when it comes to criticizing economics.

    The philosopher Alexander Rosenberg has addressed your concerns, and to some extent, I think would agree with some of what you say:

    Philosophy of Social Science by Alexander Rosenberg (Paperback – Jul 30, 2007)

    Economics–Mathematical Politics or Science of Diminishing Returns? (Science and Its Conceptual Foundations series) by Alexander Rosenberg (Paperback – Nov 28, 1994)

    Sociobiology and the Preemption of Social Science (Hardcover)
    by Professor Alexander Rosenberg (1981) (this one focuses on sociobiology, but actually its general points, and applications to economics are probably sounder than when applied to evolution and genetics.)

  68. 68.

    Betsy

    October 19, 2009 at 1:12 am

    @Yutsano:
    Oh indeed. No worries on that score here. My folks have 5 big dogs, and while they have access to outside via a dog door, it’s fenced very high.

  69. 69.

    Betsy

    October 19, 2009 at 1:13 am

    @jl:

    Sociobiology and the Preemption of Social Science (Hardcover)
    by Professor Alexander Rosenberg (1981) (this one focuses on sociobiology, but actually its general points, and sections are economics are probably sounder than when applied to evolution and genetics.)

    Funny you should mention that – I’ve actually long thought that sociobiology and a certain strain of econ, as filtered to the general public, have a lot in common.

  70. 70.

    Yutsano

    October 19, 2009 at 1:13 am

    @asiangrrlMN: I haz me another candidate. Pretty decent song too.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed5_zuLZ36w&feature=related

    (I saw Elvis won but still feel like sharing anyway)

  71. 71.

    Yutsano

    October 19, 2009 at 1:15 am

    @Betsy: The big dogs will scare off the coyotes anyway. Good thing they are more or less cowards when it comes to that.

  72. 72.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 19, 2009 at 1:16 am

    @Yutsano: That’s a great song, too. I am filing it away for future use.

  73. 73.

    jl

    October 19, 2009 at 1:18 am

    @asiangrrlMN: You saying that economists have good GLUTES? I did not know that.

    And I will check out “I want to vanish” which do not remember hearing, me not being a huge Costello fan.

  74. 74.

    Brick Oven Bill

    October 19, 2009 at 1:18 am

    Here again is Frog-Woman Anita:

    “Very rarely did we communicate anything through the press anything that we didn’t absolutely control.”

    Anita, again, is the wife of Obama’s personal attorney, who I do not understand how he can deal with her wandering tongue. Ideally, an Administration is transparent. Sometimes they even promise it.

    If you shoot the coyote, it will neither bother you nor eat your kitty Betsy. I would neither mess with coyotes, nor Glenn Beck.

  75. 75.

    Yutsano

    October 19, 2009 at 1:19 am

    @asiangrrlMN: Listening to Elvis right now. Mmm…adventurous tonalities. I knew there was a reason I loved him. Unresolved sevenths, my music geekdom is strong tonight.

  76. 76.

    Betsy

    October 19, 2009 at 1:19 am

    @asiangrrlMN:
    This is what came to my mind. R.E.M.’s Half a World Away. Don’t know if it suits your mood, but I love it.

  77. 77.

    Yutsano

    October 19, 2009 at 1:21 am

    @Betsy: Even if wifey don’t bite (and it’s Michael Stipe how could she not?) I’m gonna hold onto that one!

  78. 78.

    Joel

    October 19, 2009 at 1:22 am

    @Brian J:As someone who sort-of liked Freakonomics (especially the Venkatesh segment; unfortunately Venkatesh himself is a terrible writer), I still agree with much of Salmon’s criticism. However, Levitt is probably more Slate glibertarian-liberal more than the Reason glibcon type. I’m probably going to pass on the Rick James tribute though…

  79. 79.

    Betsy

    October 19, 2009 at 1:23 am

    @Yutsano:
    :D Glad you like. It’s one of my enduring favorites.

  80. 80.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 19, 2009 at 1:25 am

    @Betsy: Aw, that’s an awesome song, too. I’m going to keep that one on file as well.

    @jl: Have NO idea. I just like making silly acronyms. Though, I do have a geek crush on Paul Krugman, so who knows?

    @Yutsano: Plus, he’s cuuuuute. I’d take Elvis over Stipe any day.

  81. 81.

    jl

    October 19, 2009 at 1:26 am

    @Betsy: As I remember it, that is one of Rosenberg’s points. But I think the Sociobiology book is where he goes into the problems with grand unified theories of everything in the social sciences. I think his points about sociobiology are actually more relevant to economics. When I read the book I focused on what he said about economics.

    He covers similar topics in the 1992 book, but more briefly, as he wants to spend more space there denouncing economics on for other reasons as well.

    But, AsiangrrlMN said wehave good glutes, so we do have some points in our favor.
    Edit: AsiangrrlMN just took it back. Too bad.

  82. 82.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 19, 2009 at 1:29 am

    @jl: Did not! I just have no idea. I’ve never seen Krugman’s ass.

  83. 83.

    Yutsano

    October 19, 2009 at 1:29 am

    @asiangrrlMN: Speaking of cuuuuute, where is hubby #1? It should be around morningtime in Kangaroo Land about now.

  84. 84.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 19, 2009 at 1:31 am

    @Yutsano: And, oh, is he cuuuuuute. It’s Monday, there, though. He’s probably at work. He only really comes out to play on the weekends.

  85. 85.

    Betsy

    October 19, 2009 at 1:32 am

    @jl:
    Fascinating. I will have to find some stuff by this fellow. I know a lot more about evo psych and sociobiology than I do about econ; I would be curious to see what someone who actually knows what he’s talking about has to say about it. As opposed to me, who just likes to spout off. :P

  86. 86.

    jl

    October 19, 2009 at 1:33 am

    @asiangrrlMN: OK OK OK. Good luck with Krugman.

    Man, that must be some crush.

  87. 87.

    Yutsano

    October 19, 2009 at 1:34 am

    @Betsy: As opposed to me, who just likes to spout off. :P

    You make this sound like a negative or something.

  88. 88.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 19, 2009 at 1:35 am

    @jl: It is. I want to buy him a drink and talk economics all night long!

    All right, bitchez. Bedtime for asiangrrlMN. See ya on the flip side.

  89. 89.

    jl

    October 19, 2009 at 1:36 am

    @Betsy: Well, to be honest, from what I know about biology, Rosenberg might not know as much as he thinks he does when he talks about biological evolution. So if you read the book, I would get on google scholar to search for some critiques of his views on biological evolution. But I think his points are very good when applied to economics, and SOCIO part of sociobiology.

  90. 90.

    Betsy

    October 19, 2009 at 1:41 am

    @Yutsano:
    Ha! Hardly. Where would the internet be without people spouting off?

    Anyway, like AsiangrrlMN, I should go to bed. For reasons beyond my ken, my father decided that it would be a good idea for us to meet some friends of his at 8:30 AM tomorrow for coffee. He said to me, “Would 8:30 Monday work for you?” To which I replied, “Sure!” It never even occurred to me that he could mean 8:30 IN THE MORNING. For a social engagement. FFS.

  91. 91.

    Yutsano

    October 19, 2009 at 1:43 am

    @Betsy: Uhh…d’oh? You’ll survive. I’m not long for consciousness myself anyway.

  92. 92.

    Steeplejack

    October 19, 2009 at 1:58 am

    @asiangrrlMN:

    Hey, general question for music people. Anyone know of a song with lyrics about being detached from oneself?

    Not directly, but Peter Schiller’s “Major Tom” hits that vibe for me. Lyrics here.

    More if I think of something. I’m going to be up for a while.

    (New lockquote methodology test above.)

  93. 93.

    Steeplejack

    October 19, 2009 at 2:01 am

    @Steeplejack:

    That’s “blockquote,” not “lockquote.” A suitably Rube Goldberg-esque edit fix to go along with the Rube Goldberg blockquote fix would by nice. FYWP.

  94. 94.

    The Main Gauche of Mild Reason

    October 19, 2009 at 2:05 am

    @Joel:

    Levitt is probably more Slate glibertarian-liberal more than the Reason glibcon type.

    I don’t know about Levitt, but I assume their blog is somewhat of a joint endeavor, and they had an absurd feature where they had Newt Gingrich answering reader’s questions. They gave Gingrich the opportunity to spout absurdities like:

    “we were in a real battle in 1994 for change. I considerably underestimated how unhappy the Democrats, who had been in charge for the last 40 years, were going to be in the minority. Having been there myself for the previous 16 years, I should have known…

    Remember, every item in the Contract was supported by the vast majority of the American people, but opposed by the Democratic leadership. If you have never done so, I urge you to go and read the Contract for yourself, here. Ask yourself if it is really the partisan document some of you have described, or if it was something you did not expect. I think you will find it to be a positive, non-partisan agenda that most Americans wanted but could not get from the Democratic Party.”

  95. 95.

    Steeplejack

    October 19, 2009 at 2:11 am

    @asiangrrlMN:

    The Beatles, “I’m So Tired.”

    Also, Tom Petty, “Mary Jane’s Last Dance.” “I’m tired of myself / I’m tired of this town.”

  96. 96.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    October 19, 2009 at 2:26 am

    Hey, man… Don’t dis Cali weather. We’ve got three seasons: gray, green, and brown.

    You are an obvious transplant as any real  Californian knows that there are four seasons: Mud, Flood, Fire & Earthquake.

    The only thing wrong with Texas weather is the summer Texas. The only problem with a Texas summer is that it’s lasts for six months in Texas.

    Fix’t.

    Do not doubt how fucking stupid you are if you waste any more time talking to the fuckhead with the Brick Oven Brain. Your time is better spent piercing your genitals with hot railroad spikes.

    Fix’t.

    Freakonomics? Is this what happens once everyone comes to the realization that we were sold down the river in the name of profits and campaign contributions and everyone starts tarring and feathering politicians, bankers, and the like while running around with pitchforks and flaming torches? No?

    Not interested.

  97. 97.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    October 19, 2009 at 2:27 am

    Oh, and FYWP. Also,

  98. 98.

    Steeplejack

    October 19, 2009 at 2:28 am

    @asiangrrlMN:

    Can’t resist this final suggestion, even though I know you have gone to bed.

    Stephen Stills has a great song called “Four and Twenty” (or “4 + 20”). Couldn’t find a version by Stills that I liked well enough, but this guy Fretkillr is da bomb. (He also does a great cover of Danny O’Keefe’s “Good Time Charlie’s Got the Blues.”)

  99. 99.

    terry chay

    October 19, 2009 at 2:32 am

    Freakonomics is bullshit, and I’ve been waiting for about 5 years for the smackdown to be laid on those frauds. Finally the mainstream world is catching up.

    I guess my father is right, nobody said that Democracy is perfect, it’s the best thing we’ve got and even if you’re right, nobody said it’d have to be done on your timetable.

  100. 100.

    arguingwithsignposts

    October 19, 2009 at 2:56 am

    does anyone else wake up at uneven times? I slept from 10 to 1:45, now I’m awake for a while, then probably will sleep from 4 to 6 or so.

    The helicopters … aren’t … sleeping.

  101. 101.

    Gwangung

    October 19, 2009 at 3:03 am

    @arguingwithsignposts: Huh. Used to do that. Then I think I went to a somewhat more strenuous exercise program and then I went toa more regular pattern, dunno if that will help, but every datum is useful (some more useful than others,,,,,)

  102. 102.

    Steeplejack

    October 19, 2009 at 3:10 am

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    Does anyone else wake up at uneven times?

    I do freelance software work and also have a part-time gig in retail whose only attraction is that it provides health insurance. I work a weird shift schedule that varies from week to week and includes a lot of late shifts (getting off work at 11:00 p.m.), so it’s easy for my sleep patterns to get screwed up (if not obliterated).

    I had a long day on Saturday–up at 6:30 a.m. to put the finishing touches on a software project (after a power failure put me out of commission Friday night), then off for a full shift at the part-time job from 8:30 to 3:30, then back home to shower, change clothes and go to a big party Saturday night. Got home about 11:00 p.m., then didn’t get to bed until 12:30 a.m., and after I got up about 9:00 a.m. on Sunday I was shuffling around like a zombie, feeling really out of it. Eventually went down for a long nap from about 6:00 to 9:00 p.m., which is probably why I’m still up and about now. That and the fact that Monday is the second day of my usual “weekend”–I never work Sunday or Monday at the retail gig.

    So, yeah, I hear you about the “uneven” sleeping.

  103. 103.

    arguingwithsignposts

    October 19, 2009 at 3:24 am

    @Gwangung:

    exercise might help. been out of town every weekend, which is killing me, but won’t be slowing down until at least three weeks from now. sigh.

    listening to tracy chapman doesn’t help, either. :)

  104. 104.

    freelancer

    October 19, 2009 at 5:23 am

    Quick drive-by:

    Missed a lot in the last 4 days. I think I’m at the start of the Michael Gass thread, but since then it’s been spotty. I read through it and I feel like I missed woodstock. The helicopters aren’t joking, and tomorrow, I might email Cole a pallet of Certs.

    Went and saw “Where the Wild Things Are” earlier tonight. Best movie of the year so far, IMHO (though I think The Men Who Stare at Goats and The Road are going to give it a run for its money) Go see it ASAP.

    Going into this weekend, with the Huskers’ dodgy offense, even homegrown me thought they were overrated at #15, but being at the game…damn, it was disappointing, and we wanted the immediate resignation of the offensive coordinator Shawn Watson. To go from #15 to unranked with one loss is a helluva statement to make.

    As a silver-lining, one of the new stadium traditions includes the adoption of the excellent Jackson 5 song “Can You Feel It?”, remixed here.

  105. 105.

    Zuzu's Petals

    October 19, 2009 at 5:31 am

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    Melatonin.

  106. 106.

    RedKitten

    October 19, 2009 at 7:05 am

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    does anyone else wake up at uneven times?

    Yes, but I have a tiny, squalling, diaper-clad excuse.

  107. 107.

    arguingwithsignposts

    October 19, 2009 at 7:11 am

    @RedKitten:

    I think three of those ruined me. :)

  108. 108.

    MikeJ

    October 19, 2009 at 8:01 am

    Holy shit. Drunk teens just ran into my neighbor’s house. Seven cop cars answered my call to 911.

  109. 109.

    debit

    October 19, 2009 at 8:10 am

    @MikeJ: Drunken teens at this hour of the morning? On a school day? Kids these days.

    But seriously, I hope no one got hurt.

  110. 110.

    Svensker

    October 19, 2009 at 8:12 am

    @Steeplejack:

    Stephen Stills has a great song called “Four and Twenty”

    Yes, yes, yes.

  111. 111.

    MikeJ

    October 19, 2009 at 8:14 am

    @debit: This hour of the morning was about 4:30am here, so more a late night I imagine.

    Nobody hurt, but the helicopters weren’t laughing.

  112. 112.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    October 19, 2009 at 8:15 am

    OT: Oh noes! President Obama is forcing marijuana down our throats!

    Let the misguided shrieking begin.

  113. 113.

    RedKitten

    October 19, 2009 at 8:26 am

    @kommrade reproductive vigor:

    OT: Oh noes! President Obama is forcing marijuana down our throats! Let the misguided shrieking begin.

    Heh — and if they shriek, we can respond pretty easily with “States’ rights, bitches!”

  114. 114.

    Persia

    October 19, 2009 at 9:03 am

    The Freakonomics blog’s response to Barbara Ehenreich is also a thing of beauty, if by beauty you mean hair-splitting butthurt. Ehenreich’s article is good too.

  115. 115.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 19, 2009 at 9:14 am

    @arguingwithsignposts: Story of my life, bro. Exercise didn’t work for me. Melatonin didn’t work for me. Sleeping pills didn’t work for me. Alky-hol didn’t work for me. Hot baths, hot milk, hot tea–none of it worked for me. What did? Nothing as of yet. Feel better?

    @Steeplejack: I really like all four songs. I’m bookmarking this thread for further usage. Major Tom was a fave of mine when I was younger. The Tom Petty song hits closest to the mark.

  116. 116.

    Keith G

    October 19, 2009 at 9:24 am

    @arguingwithsignposts: Put ~ 30 min of tunes on your iPod (or whatever) at approx 110 bpm (place the one you like the best at the 15 min mark as a turn around song).

    A brisk walk several hours before bed time will help counter stressers that pop up during sleep.

    Example tunes: Holiday, Hollaback Girl, Kiss (Prince), Crazy (Barkley), Mr. Wendall, 4 minutes. Milkshake.

    Others: http://www.scratchlive.net/forum/discussion/80436

  117. 117.

    RSA

    October 19, 2009 at 9:53 am

    Nobody would accuse these guys of being dumb, so when they make what appears to be pretty significant errors, it just doesn’t make any sense.

    I’ve read Freakonomics but not the latest book. My take, reading the various blog posts going around, is that the problem with their climate change argument is methodological. They seem to have taken a few of Caldeira’s summary observations, for example, and fit them into an argument that’s opposed to what Caldeira actually believes. That might be okay in journalism (I’m surprised that Levitt would do this) but the proper approach if you want to disagree with someone is really to re-analyze their data, not what they say about their data, and argue why your new interpretation is better. Otherwise it’s transparent cherry-picking. Dubner, in his response to the controversy, doesn’t seem to get this at all.

  118. 118.

    Steeplejack

    October 19, 2009 at 10:19 am

    @freelancer:

    Which one is the Gass thread? I’m like 30 threads behind from last week, what with a sudden software deadline, and I feel like I missed an epochal Balloon Juice event. The shock waves are still reverberating.

  119. 119.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    October 19, 2009 at 10:25 am

    @RedKitten: Youbetcha!

  120. 120.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 19, 2009 at 10:29 am

    @Steeplejack: “Now it can be told” by DougJ. You’re welcome.

  121. 121.

    Steeplejack

    October 19, 2009 at 10:51 am

    @asiangrrlMN:

    Thank you, missy! Looks like I’ve got to hit the stacks for some readin’.

  122. 122.

    Grumpy Code Monkey

    October 19, 2009 at 11:44 am

    @Ben Richards:

    The stuff that made Austin so great in the ’70s and ’80s has largely been wrecked by the tech boom and corresponding population explosion (and I say that as part of the problem; I moved to Austin in 1990 as part of the first wave). Bulldozing Liberty Lunch to make way for a building Intel would abandon halfway through construction pretty much sums it up. Cedar Fever is a life-threatening condition. City politics would be entertaining if they didn’t result in so much destruction.

  123. 123.

    bjacques

    October 19, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    @114:

    Studies declaring modern women to be miserable and linking that to feminism turn up every few years. I think Susan Faludi devoted a chapter or two to a similar study in Backlash, 20 years ago.

    And, yeah, cedar pollen in the hill country is an airborne toxic even as far as I’m concerned.

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