Way to be, Max:
Fewer middle-income families would qualify for tax credits to purchase health insurance, under a little-noticed change to the Senate Finance Committee health bill made just before the markup began in late September.
Under the bill, eligible individuals and families with annual incomes of between 100 and 400 percent of the federal poverty line would receive tax credits to cover the cost of insurance purchased through state exchanges. As part of a package of managers’ modifications, Finance Chairman Max Baucus changed the definition of income from “modified adjusted gross income,” or AGI plus investment interest, to simply “modified gross income.”
That is a departure from the way all other federal tax credits are calculated, and it means when determining eligibility for the credit, the IRS would have to disregard a household’s usual above-the-line deductions, such as for individual retirement account contributions and college tuition.
It really is awesome how these guys think- make everything more complicated, save very little, and screw the folks who need the help while mandating they buy insurance. About the only thing missing is mandating they give up their first born. Well played, President Baucus!
There seriously are days I think half the Democrats in the Senate are Republican moles.
cleek
did anyone really expect a finance guy would know how to write an effective health care bill ?
burnspbesq
The peculiar thing about this is as follows. If it reduces the number of people who are eligible for subsidies, then the first order effect is a cost reduction, which would benefit all taxpayers. The flip side, however, is that some of those taxpayers will be screwed because they will be ineligible for subsidies. The impacts on Baucus’ principal sources of campaign $ could probably be modeled, but I can’t do it off the top of my head.
I can think of two reasons for this: (1) screwing with the scoring of the SFC bill, knowing full well that the House will never go along; or (2) mean-spirited bullshit. I’d like to think that (1) is the answer, but …
JHF
Tax credits are a stupid joke. They don’t magically produce income to pay for things. This is just insane.
arguingwithsignposts
Baucus. No doubt. Him and Conrad and Lincoln, etc.
Most days, I hate the Senate. Just on general principle.
beltane
Tax credits to help purchase health care is not a wonderful idea to begin with, the fact that IRA contributions will now be taxable just makes it worse. While tax credits might be popular with upper and upper middle class families, those existing at 200% FPL are still going to have to scramble to pay their monthly insurance premium while waiting for their money. It is unnecessarily complicated, and will piss off those people who can’t afford the services of a CPA. Do any of these Senators understand how people live in the real world?
Brick Oven Bill
Wealth re-distribution is not necessarily a bad thing. But it should be done through Charity. Charity allows merit to be measured. Wealth re-distribution by a government and gunpowder is designed to create control.
General Winfield Stuck
Unless the odious Senate Finance Committee bill is mostly shredded for garden mulch, the Senate will likely produce the Insurance Industry Profit Enhancement Act. Though luckily, whatever comes out of the Senate will go to conference where Nancy will deploy her gavel of butthurt to keep the good ole boys in line.
Harry Reid may be getting off his wishy washy ass to help get HCR passed, but is still being smarmy on the PO.
jharp
“There seriously are days I think half the Democrats in the Senate are Republican moles.”
You had better start thinking that every day. It is without any doubt true. Maybe not half though.
scav
@beltane: Only little people live in the real world. Don’t bother your beautiful mind: walk on by.
so yeah, I’m personally rooting for gravity, the guillotine and grinding their noses in the mess they made. I’m patient and I know how to knit.
slag
But they got Olympia Snowe’s vote, and isn’t that what really matters?
Will
In a lot of states, there is zero difference between Democrats and Republicans. It’s the same pool of rich dudes who want to hold office and the choice of whether their name is followed by (D) or (R) depends mostly on which party has an open slot.
Brachiator
If this was explicitly changed, as opposed to an oversight (which often happens), then there is some serious bull crap going on. In all the years that I have been involved in tax and accounting, I have rarely if ever seen “modified gross income” used as a base line for anything. It just is not done.
Sloegin
Been true since the days of FDR when all the rich folks bitched about FDR being a class-traitor running as a “D”… then they all had a collective “ah-ha” moment.
General Winfield Stuck
the Senate reminds me of a Sean Penn quip in “Casualties of War” when Michael J Fox confronts the others about kidnapping the Vietnamese girl.
Meserve
Any one Senator has the weapon of “I object” ruining the day of any single Senator, or the Chamber as a whole. So there is a lot of smiling and glad handing to not upset the apple cart, unless it becomes absolutely necessary.
cleek
so, um… where’d my comments go ?
Kryptik
Even more fun, John. Baucus is willing to shave down the bare minimum insurance companies are required to fund on payouts for treatments, from 65% in the HELP bill to 60%. As a way to ‘increase affordability’.
So…make health insurance more affordable by forcing you to fit even more of the bill when the time comes to actually get anything done. Isn’t that a fun idea?
Napoleon
I have a really bad feeling that the health care bill that gets passed will be a disaster both from a policy and political stand point. We have idiots in the Senate working on it and an AWOL President on trying to guide it to being a good bill. Top all that off with the fact most of it will not kick in until after the next Presidential election.
McGeorge Bundy
Stupid motherfuckers.
GambitRF
@arguingwithsignposts:
I’m pretty sure Conrad is just really, really, dumb. As evidenced by his interview with Ezra Klein a few weeks ago where he tried to argue that health care in France isn’t really a government-run system, then a few sentences later said we couldn’t have a public option in America because that would be a government-run system.
Napoleon
@JHF:
It just shows you how out of touch our leaders are with ordinary Americans. Like people can just pay out thousands of dollars and wait up to a year, year and a half to get it back.
No sweat, Max.
Violet
All Democratic candidates should be required to have a spine inspection before being allowed to run. Most current Dems would fail the inspection.
bago
The wingularity will … be … zzzzZZZ….
Death Panel Truck
Well, they ain’t Democrats, that’s fer damned sure. I remember a time when a certain senator/president from a red state (LBJ) went around doing liberal things while vehemently denying his liberalism. Now we have red state “Democrats” toeing the Republican party line. I hate the bastids, every goddamned one of ’em.
Llelldorin
I don’t think they’re Republican moles. I think they’re simply people who would be Republicans if the Republican party weren’t underpants-on-head crazy.
Steeplejack
Somebody has probably alread said this, but tax credits are useless if you don’t have the money in the first place. If you are barely scraping along, living paycheck to paycheck and from hand to mouth, you don’t have the
luxuryability to drop a big chunk of change on an expense and wait to get it back in your tax refund next year.Edit: Beltane is on it–“Do any of these senators understand how people live in the real world?” Amen.
Martin
Just a reminder on Jim Cramers ongoing benefit to society:
Apple blew out earnings yesterday and opened today 10 points higher. Apple’s expected numbers were $9.2B revenues, $1.42B EPS, and they reported $9.87B/$1.67 EPS. iPhone sales were up.
Now, Cramer has real inside information – we all know he does and he’s admitted to having it in the past. Further, it’s not *that* hard to predict Apple results, yet he got this totally backward, as usual. He gets it backward because he trades the stock and has in the past used his show to guide viewers in the wrong direction for his own benefit.
In his advice he talks about a ‘little known problem’. Well, there’s a contant flood of little known problems – when Apple alone can crater the flash memory market you can only imagine the regular run of problems – minor hardware updates, component sourcing problems, shipping issues, and the usual issues when transitioning a factory from one production item to another. So Cramer goes out and talks about this ‘little known problem’ which of course can’t be verified and speaks of it as insider info which bolsters his prediction in the eyes of the viewer.
So what do you want to bet that Cramer, or his hedge fund, or someone on his behalf bought into earnings and is selling off today while his idiot audience buys in today instead? Cramer makes substantially more in his private trading than CNBC pays him, which questions why he does it, and what value his reputation as a commentator really has for him? And he’ll just shrug it off if called on it, because ‘nobody can be right 100% of the time’. Meanwhile, these guys go on buying and selling people’s pensions, homes, and jobs.
cleek_on_the_run
raise your hand if you thought a guy on the Finance Committee knew how to write a health care bill.
Zifnab
Abuh? Have you paid any attention over the last two months? Obama has been focused like a laser beam on health care. Unfortunately, politics is hard and he can’t stomp out every shenanigan the DemocRats pull.
Honestly, I can’t understand why he simply didn’t flip the Finance Committee the bird and run the HELP bill out of the Senate to merge with the House Bill. Then he could just tell Baucus and company to put their precious little ideas in amendments and try to get 60 votes on any of them.
The liberals are still stuck as minorities when compared to the corporationists in the Senate, that’s for damn sure. I don’t see how you get to lay this at Obama’s feet. But it would be nice to see Biden go all LBJ on the backstabbing jackasses he used to work with.
Steeplejack
@Martin:
Excellent. May I
subscribe to your newsletterjoin your pitchfork-wielding mob?Violet
@Zifnab:
That would indeed be a pleasure to watch.
NR
@Zifnab: Obama doesn’t get off that easily. A lot of this crap is on him.
Rockefeller is disappointed in how Obama has handled health care reform.
The public option was doable, even in the Senate Finance Committee, if Obama had been willing to fight for it. But he wasn’t, and now it’s an open question as to whether we’ll get it at all. If we don’t, it’ll be Omaba’s fault.
catclub
Steeplejack@23
Do you mean that people with low incomes are too
stupid to adjust their withholding so that they don’t
have to wait around for a year to get the tax credit back?
I am not convinced.
I am convinced the tax credit is a stupid idea, though.
catclub
Violet @27
The impression I got of LBJ going after former colleagues was that
only happened after he was president. He was much less powerful as VP
than he was as majority leader.
(my ‘knowledge’ is primarily from the LBJ biographies ‘master of the senate’
and ‘means of ascent’ by Robert Caro.)
feel free to correct me.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
Baucus knows that poor people are, well, poor. Since they are poor and the people who give him millions are not, who do you expect him to favor? I mean, come on… You think poor people can give this Senator the cash he needs to operate and run for reelection (or pad his coffers so he can roll it over into cash if he ‘retires’ from the Senate) and poor people have repeatedly proven to Senators (and the Congress) that they just don’t have enough money to pay (off) their representatives so they can buy their vote.
The insurance industry has proven over and over again that if politicians want the money they crave, all they have to do is give the insurance industry what they want and they will pour the cash into the campaign coffers in return. You can see the conundrum the politicians face every day: They have to decide between lots of cash or doing the right thing for their constituents. While it is true that votes are important at election time, once the elections are over it is time for the winning politician to cash in. They all know that they can start the lying, posturing and pandering to the voters again right before the next election. In the meantime?
Money talks, everything else walks. That’s the way it is when you have the best government that money can buy.
Roger Moore
@NR:
Shorter Rockefeller:
Punchy
My health care plan — go to hospital, get very expensive surgery, then declare bankrupcy. Rinse, repeat.
Private insurance is at least $5K a year. You’re telling me that BK every 3-4 years is more expensive than $20?
NR
@Napoleon:
This is something that seriously hasn’t been talked about enough. WTF is going on here? Can you imagine Obama getting a question about this in the 2012 Presidential debates?
Q: Mr. President, in 2009 you signed health care reform into law. How’s that been working out?
Obama: Well Brian, you’ll have to wait until next year to find out, as the law doesn’t take effect until then. And it won’t be fully phased in until 2016, so why don’t you check back with me then? Or better yet, you can just ask this same question to the next couple of presidential candidates. I’m sure they’ll have a lot to say about it.
General Winfield Stuck
@NR:
No it wasn’t. Concern wanker.
JHF
For self-employed folks, there ain’t any goddamn withholding to adjust. Taxes come right out of their skin and they may even have to borrow to pay them [he said, speaking from experience]. The tax credit idea is just a stupid, cruel, reprehensible idiocy.
NR
@Roger Moore: Right. Obama is just a helpless observer, with no power to affect anything that goes on in Congress.
Unless he’s threatening progressives to get them to support right-wing bills, of course.
Napoleon
@NR:
Seconded, if there is no public option it is Obama’s fault.
Steeplejack
@catclub:
They’re not necessarily stupid, but a lot of low-income people are not well versed in the nuances of adjusting their withholding.
And, if you make so little that you fundamentally cannot afford an additional expense of several thousand dollars (at least, I assume), theoretically adjusting your withholding still wouldn’t help. You’d still be out the (large) expense and only gradually recouping it through the year.
I know there are a lot of details to be hashed out in any actual program, e.g., maybe you would pay premiums quarterly or even monthly, so the financial hit wouldn’t be so hard. But my point was that for lower-income people tax credits are a stupid way to do anything. They basically assume that you have the money to do something and you will get reimbursed for it later. For all too many Americans, they don’t have that money to put up front.
AnotherBruce
Half the Democrats are steeped in conservative culture. They are damaged by free market myths and half cocked notions of the dangers of socialism. They believe that their role is to serve the “masters of the universe”, and that it is evil for the government to actually govern. In other words, they are slightly kinder Republicans.
There is no doubt that the desire to get corporate money and support to be re-elected is part of the equation, but it doesn’t fully explain what’s going on with politicians like Baucus. It’s the political culture they grew up with, and they can’t imagine it could be any other way.
Jasper
The really big deal is the calculation ignores one half of the SE tax for the REAL small businesses. If a self employed writer makes, say, 50k, the Baucus formula ignores the $7,650 he’ll pay in FICA and Medicare.
It ignores alimony paid, too.
AnotherBruce
Reprinted because I used the “S” word correctly and got put in moderation.
Half the Democrats are steeped in conservative culture. They are damaged by free market myths and half cocked notions of the dangers of socia lism. They believe that their role is to serve the “masters of the universe”, and that it is evil for the government to actually govern. In other words, they are slightly kinder Republicans.
There is no doubt that the desire to get corporate money and support to be re-elected is part of the equation, but it doesn’t fully explain what’s going on with politicians like Baucus. It’s the political culture they grew up with, and they can’t imagine it could be any other way.
jibeaux
I certainly think adjusting the withholding would help most people’s problems with the tax credit, but I take the point about the self-employed. What’s the preferred alternative to the tax credit, an immediate subsidy, a more immediate reimbursement, or…? I expect the tax credit was probably chosen because there’s already a bureaucracy in the form of the IRS to handle all of that, and because tax credits are politically more palatable than cash rebates, but I dunno.
Napoleon
@NR:
Your press conference scenario is the least of his worries. The Republicans will be able to run against healthcare for the next 3 years and say whatever pops into their heads about it (“It will force Grandma to saw her own legs off if she gets a hangnail!!!”) and people will have no personal experience with the new system to know its BS and second as the system gets worse in the interim, which it will, people will wonder why the reform isn’t helping the situation (not understanding that it is to be phased in over several millennium).
Rex
I am very confident that, by the time Congress is done fashioning this bill, my health insurance premiums will probably increase by at least 25 percent, the quality of care will diminish by a similar 25 percent and the insurers will probably see profit margins expand somewhere between 25 and 50 percent, depending on what they have to pay out in political contributions.
General Winfield Stuck
Ready, fire, aim
PeakVT
There seriously are days I think half the Democrats in the Senate are Republican moles.
Pessimist. It’s only a between a quarter and a third.
CalD
Doesn’t actually matter anyway, since there’s no way the Senate Finance Committee amendment will become law. Elements of it will probably find their way into a final bill but the House would never pass it as is. All that we’re seeing right now are first drafts. Doesn’t hurt a thing to make noise about it though. Squeaky wheels and all that.
TenguPhule
Bring me the Head of Max Baucus.
Body need not be attached.
catclub
JHF@39 said:
“For self-employed folks, there ain’t any goddamn withholding to adjust. Taxes come right out of their skin and they may even have to borrow to pay them [he said, speaking from experience].”
Well there is not witholding but there is estimated taxes for the self employed.
And EVERYONE’S Taxes come right out of everyone’s skin,
not just the self employed. My employer pays my witholding because I tell him to do so.
Somehow I suspect there has been some person somewhere with a regular salary and witholding that had to take out a loan to pay taxes.
liberal
@Brick Oven Bill:
Most wealth redistribution is upwards, not downwards.
4jkb4ia
@NR:
This link amounts to the petition that Chris Bowers and Mike Lux were pushing for Obama to advocate for the public option in conference. Maybe you can still sign it.
liberal
@NR:
B…b…b…but it can’t be Obama’s fault—he’s not a legislator!
General Winfield Stuck
@PeakVT:
Actually, on HCR and the public option in the Senate, there is only one Senator who has pledged to vote no on cloture, and that is the slimy non dem Joe Lieberman. In fact, Tom Harkin has the whip count to vote for the PO at 52 SOLID dem votes, and the most of the rest have specific issues to be addressed before they will vote yea. Mostly concerning rural state senators worried about Medicare based fee payments. Issues that can be worked out to free their votes of yea.
And in all likelyhood, reconciliation was always the way it was going to have to be done. But first all efforts to do it by regular order and get past the filibuster needed to be tried first, and though unlikely, it is still possible. But if not, the House, via Charley Rangel has installed the requisite language in their version to allow the majority sen. dems to trigger the reconciliation process if need be and pass it with a simple majority.
All this worry and angst and concern is giving me a headache from people to lazy to learn the political processes of how the politics of legislation works. And if HCR was easy, it would have been done long ago, But it is not easy, regardless of large majorities.
General Winfield Stuck
Wrong citation for Harkins 52 solid dem votes on PO, this is right one
Libertini
@scav: Bon mot. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.
srv
And people still think a bicameral legislature was a great idea.
I hope I never get asked to teach a civics class.
Libertini
@Zifnab:
I’d buy it on Pay-Per-View.
Zifnab
@liberal: What planet do you people live on? The White House has been putting pressure on every committee – and four out of five committees passed public options.
Baucus, Conrad, and the GOoPers were supposed to have a lock on the bill in the Finance committee because they’re all completely bought off by the insurance industry. At this point, the Dems are going to have to start breaking heads to get the votes, and that sort of pressure has to happen within the Senate. Baucus isn’t under pressure from Reid like Pelosi can pressure the Blue Dog Dems.
If you try to muscle this through, you just need one Dem Senator to block the filibuster – it doesn’t even matter why – and the bill into Reconciliation on life support. That’s one of the reasons Obama wants to pick up a few GOP votes. Snow isn’t a great vote, because she’s in the pocket with Baucus and Conrad. But there are a few outgoing Senators, like Voinovich or Lugar, that can be swung with enough cover.
The math is very, very thin. This fight is incredibly difficult, and your demand for a lock on legislation that still teeters precipitously on the fence is asinine and absurd.
tc125231
@General Winfield Stuck: Nice summary. But realistically, you know, the problem is not JC’s hypothesis that the Dems are “Republican moles” –it’s that the campaign finance process, combined with corporate owned media, has come together to give you a Senate with a significant number of Democratic senators who basically serve the same people as the Republicans do.
The controlling interests usually get what they pay for. The only solution would be to impede their purchases, and that doesn’t seem likely, does it?
Societies can decay for long periods, until something causes a major break. My guess –and it is only that –is that when climate change starts to make people really –actually, physically –uncomfortable in this country, and all the lies that have been told become obvious –there is going to be a lot of anger and a basic paradigm shift.
This may or may not be a good thing in the short term –you could end up with a period of terror and “Twelve who Ruled”.
http://www.amazon.com/Twelve-Who-Ruled-Revolution-Princeton/dp/0691121877
Brick Oven Bill
It is the job of the government to break up monopolies, and provide equal opportunity.
This government is fostering monopolies, and promising equal outcomes. The promises about goodies are from the same people who promised us 8% unemployment, and no tax increases. Cigarette tax ($0.60/pack); Cap and Trade ($4,000/family); Energy bill (‘electricity rates will necessarily skyrocket’ (Lord, this guy is dumb)), VAT floated.
Goldman Sachs’ stock price has tripled since January.
General Winfield Stuck
@Zifnab:
This is a very good point. The RP is an unknown nightmare of arcane senate rules and not the best way to get this done, especially with a bill as complex as HCR. Nobody knows for sure what would come out the end product. It might be something like Jeff Goldblum going through his matter transport machine.
General Winfield Stuck
@tc125231:
I know what Cole was talking about and I generally agree. My comment was specifically about HCR.
slag
I just got done calling my reps (again!) in favor of a better health insurance reform bill. If you haven’t already done so, please call.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Zifnab:
Yes, he can grab them by the lapels and stand over them breathing the hot breath of hell in their faces (like LBJ used to do), and tell them all about how he made the credit card company executives rue the day they were born back when he was Joe Biden Senator (D-
DelawareMastercard/Visa/American Express).That should work miracles.
scav
@Libertini: laissez les bon temps (et les têtes) rouler!
slag
@Brick Oven Bill:
Socialist!
Also, it’s my government’s job to protect my air, water, and natural resources. So, I’m all about carbon taxes that work to ameliorate income inequality issues. It’s a continuing struggle to appropriately address externalities so that the costs aren’t always paid by the lowest earners. As it is, many of those major carbon producers are situated in low income areas and causing asthma and other serious health problems for poor people. And as we know from this healthcare debate, dealing with that sh#t’s expensive for everybody.
slag
Sorry mods for using the dreaded s-word. My manners have been in the shitter lately.
Patrick
While I’m no fan of Baucus, and think what he ended up doing could have been done in June (but he wanted to raise money from the insurance industry in August), he might be right on this one.
If they had left it alone, would people be screaming about the “rich” people (read middle class in the Northeast), putting money into IRAs to then fall into the subsidy area? Or people sending their kids to Harvard, claiming the tuition, and getting subsidized health care?
I think in the end the plan is to have two plans. Whether Baucus is in on it or a dupe, I don’t know. You are going to have the Baucus bill with a $900 BB CBO score, no public option, and hardly any subsidies. Then you are going to have Dodd-Pelosi which will have the public option, making it score <$900 BB, with more generous subsidies. If you listen to Snowe, she talks more about affordability than socialism.
Cheaper, with more coverage, and less expense for non-insured Americans or less coverage, more expense, and more expensive in the long run. The public option is already popular, that will make it a no brainer.
The opt-out will be icing on the cake, as that will bring along some Repubs, make it seem like a concession to Baucus, but then make legistlative races in right-leaning states go Democratic.
liberal
@Zifnab:
(yawn)
arguingwithsignposts
@Punchy:
And yes, a BK is very expensive.
Napoleon
For those of you that think that Obama sitting on his thumbs will not be the cause of the failure of the public option.
liberal
@General Winfield Stuck:
Right. And a bill that got a few Republican votes would be pure as the driven snow.
liberal
@Napoleon:
But Obama’s putting lots of pressure on those committees! And reconciliation’s difficult!
The Saff
@slag: When we were in Washington last month, we paid a personal visit to our congressman’s office (Gary Peters – D-Michigan 9th) to relay our support for healthcare reform and the public option. The congressman was in the office that day and came out to the reception area to talk to us. Very nice guy and he supports the public option.
I put calls into my senators, Levin and Stabbenow, to relay the same message.
General Winfield Stuck
@liberal:
Stuff your wanking liberal. I wasn’t making comparisons, just stating a fact of life when a bill goes thru reconciliation.
Napoleon
Dems have been begging White House for leadership on public option for weeks now.
Anne Laurie
Fixt.
Because I am a DFH. And shrill, also.
Interrobang
If this government is so bad about fostering monopolies, how come antitrust investigations essentially ceased between 1980 and 1994 under Reagan and Bush, came back under Clinton, and then disappeared again between 2001 and 2007 under Bush the Younger? Saint Ronnie of Raygun himself shut down the largest antitrust investigation in history for largely political reasons (Carter started it), on the stated grounds that monopoly behaviour was irrelevant, only monopoly profits mattered.
If right-wingers really gave a damn about fostering competition, anticompetitive behaviour would matter more than profiteering, and the precedent cited in US v. EI DuPont de Nemours (1961) (where antitrust actions are intended to be remedial, not punitive, and directly address only the anticompetitive behaviour specified in the suit), would have been rendered into “bad law” years ago. In the real world, this precedent acts as a selection pressure breeding fitter corporate criminals.
If right-wingers also really cared about fostering competition, they’d stop deregulating the marketplace, which has the net, real-world effect of allowing the big players to get bigger, and the barriers to entry to become insurmountable.
Antitrust enforcement is a joke. Historically, the American government subsidises its worst serial offenders (bailouts for GM, tax breaks for Wal-Mart, oil leases at discount rates to Standard Oil, plush government contracts to GE, etc.), dispensing only the occasional wrist-slap when things get too egregious or where the industry is vulnerable enough.
NR
@General Winfield Stuck: But we don’t even NEED reconciliation. There are 60 Democratic Senators. And they don’t even all have to vote for the bill – they just have to vote for cloture.
If Harry Reid cannot hold the entire caucus together on a procedural vote on the Democrats’ most important legislative priority, then he has no business being Senate leader. Period.
Midnight Marauder
@NR:
I have not agreed with some of your sentiments in this thread, but on this one, there can be no dispute.
Put up or GTFO, Harry.
Demo Woman
There is a good chance that the health care bill will not be perfect. There’s not a bill that has passed congress that is.
I do believe that Obama is forcing the issue more than we know. A reader wrote this at Daily Dish and I think it’s an accurate point.
slag
@Napoleon: Oh please. These people need to stop whining and do their damn jobs.
I’ve been as critical of the O-team as the next person on this stuff, but when these people are willing to say out loud that they need the president to personally hold their hand so that they’ll suck it up and do the right thing, I lose patience. Constituents of Ben Nelson and Mary Landrieu should be slapping them around on a daily basis by now. If they’re not, then that’s the problem there.
smiley
I’m late to this thread but this is related.
smiley
I wish someone would tell me why my last comment is in moderation (after comes out and you can read it).
smiley
Is everything being moderated today?
kay
Well, I’m going to disagree, and I deduct both retirement savings and college tuition, before you-all start yelling at me, so it affects me.
I don’t think it’s a big deal. In terms of negotiations, if this was a trade, I think it’s a big net positive.
“The amount of money saved by the change, $1.8 billion according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, might be small in the context of an $829 billion bill. And the combined effect of the managers’ package actually provided an extra $48 billion to make the tax credits more generous, and penalties for failure to buy insurance less onerous, even after changing the income definition.
He pushed the subsidies down the ladder a little bit, but he got a big increase in total subsidies in return, and the tax credit system is a sliding scale.
Too, while retirement savings and college tuition payments are given tax breaks, they are, in fact, income. Poverty levels are computed using ALL income. I don’t know why insurance subsidy levels wouldn’t be.
There’s a lot to hate about the Baucus bill. This, IMO, isn’t that.
smiley
Yep, apparently.
Fulcanelli
If Congress pukes up and Obama signs a poison pill bill that contains a federal government mandate to buy health insurance from the same health insurance companies that are screwing the American people now we’ll be partying like it’s 1789.
And it will be televised.
In high def and surround sound.
Brachiator
@catclub:
Most people, period, cannot accurately adjust their withholding accurately (what if you work overtime, get a second job, etc).
BUT THIS IS NOT THE MAIN ISSUE
MOST low income people, especially those with dependent children, may not owe any tax at the end of the year (or have other credits which wipe out tax), and you cannot adjust withholding for credits.
If the credit is refundable, a low income person would have to wait until he or she gets the refund in order to have the extra scratch for health insurance (or find a way to borrow against the expected credit).
On the other hand, if the credit is NONREFUNDABLE, then a low income person might NEVER benefit from the tax credit.
Congress is playing games, pretending at health care reform, with little aim toward anything practical or realistic.
For example. Give people a card based on their ssn or other. They get a credit from any insurer they choose. The difference is made up on their tax return.
ruemara
I’m guessing if every committee and every dem senator does not have a public option and does not laud a public option that it’s all Obama’s fault and it’s good news for McCain. Also, too.
Just after a scan of the comments.
Steeplejack
@Brachiator:
Thank you for explaining in much better detail what I was fumbling around with.
drillfork
The crazies took over the Republican Party, so the Republicans took over the party that was left…
Makewi
You know what else is good news? Young folks are going to be paying more for their required coverage. Here’s John Kerry to tell you more.
The current extreme now is around an 11:1 ratio for premiums that is older people pay more, which makes sense because they use more. The current Baucus bill regulates that down to 4:1 and folks like Kerry are pushing for a 2:1 ratio.
In even better news, smoking, higher cholesterol and obesity will not be included under the umbrella of non denial for pre-existing condition.
kay
@burnspbesq:
It looks like they expanded the subsidies by 48 billion, lowered the mandate penalty, then scrambled around trying to find money to plug that hole, little here, little there.
kay
@Makewi:
Oh, Christ, Makewi, younger people get older.
The idea, as in so many things insurance-related, is they pick up on the loss on the other end.
I know you’re a conservative, but setting people off in discrete, walled groups that are entirely independent of each other and unchanging isn’t how the world is.
People MOVE, freely, through time.
Makewi
@kay:
Yah! More financial burden on the young. I’m sure this won’t turn out just like social security, or that the increased burden will decrease the overall wealth of coming generations. You’re so smart, people get older, and they in turn can take MORE from the next!
It’s not a REAL concern.
tc125231
@General Winfield Stuck: I understood your comment, and I agree that some kind of HCR will occur. It will have –possibly crippling –problems because it will not be properly funded and it will not contain costs.
Nothing in your remarks changes those rather self-evident facts. That doesn’t mean it won’t be an achievement –but where will it lead? Is the glass half-full?
Maybe.
Or maybe Cole’s comment shows surprising naivete, and it is half empty.
General Winfield Stuck
@tc125231:
I have no clue what you are talking about.
kay
@Makewi:
I was mostly teasing, but I’ll mark your answer “insufficient”.
Seriously, I don’t think the mandate will play out that way. Start subtracting people:
1. young, make less than (X) times federal poverty level
2. insured through employer
3. piggyback on a parent’s policy up until 26. or (currently) nearly all college students
I deal with a health insurance mandate now, daily (unmarried parents of children) and I have yet to write a cash medical order.
Details matter, a lot, in this issue.
This debate doesn’t lend itself to broad conservative (or liberal) dogma, which is why media is failing so miserably at it.
You gotta dive in. You gotta add and subtract, and use common sense, with this one.
I don’t want the public option because the Baucus bill is so terribly bad and punative, I want the public option because I think it will drive down costs.
General Winfield Stuck
@kay:
Nice
And you said you couldn’t do good snark:)
kay
@General Winfield Stuck:
That’s actually how I talk.
General Winfield Stuck
@kay:
natural snark is the best kind.
kay
@General Winfield Stuck:
I’m all giddy because the county unemployment rate dropped, again.
We’re down to 14.
I had all this collected anecdotal evidence, but I was waiting for the number. They think this is hysterical at work, that I’m tracking the monthly number, but I have to look for positives, because….that is my JOB :)
We have an afternoon local paper, and this # is the huge headline, so I’m not alone.
Makewi
@kay:
If the idea is that a public option drives down overall costs by being big enough to dictate terms (ala Canada prescription drugs)? How is this different than Medicare, and how do you overcome the problems that Medicare is currently having (e.g. Claims of underpayment, increased fraud, looming bankruptcy)?
Since we’re gonna go non partisan, I’m interested in your take on these.
BigSwami
@Brick Oven Bill: Actually, one could say that the Constitution defines what the government’s job is, and Article I Section 8 of the US Constitution could be said to define the Legislature’s job, and a careful reading of the text may or may not include the words “provide for” and “general welfare.”
Of course, not everyone takes the Constitution so seriously. I guess I’m just one of those hippies who thinks ideas should be carried to their logical conclusions.
tc125231
@General Winfield Stuck: Really? Do you think that the bill to be passed will be properly funded? Do you think it will control costs?
If the answer is yes, I suggest you do a little more research on policy, not politics. If your answer is no, ask yourself if the other side really lost.
Is that simple enough for you? The jury is out. The problem is not reliably solved.
kay
@Makewi:
Sorry. I didn’t see your question.
Medicare is a whole subject. If you’re really worried about the money, you should be cheering the Democrats who want to abolish Medicare Advantage, because it’s a rip off. For you. 1/5 of seniors are enrolled in it and it costs 15% more than the public program.
It’s a cruel rip-off, because Medicare Advantage offer cheap perks like gym memberships, but may not cover, oh, home health aides, so the senior finds when they get sick they have to pay for essential services out of pocket, but they did get that cheapo gym membership and free aspirin and free eyeglass frames!
Horrible failure. End it.
I think the public option will operate like this: it’s going to have to be capped at percent of gross of the individual purchaser. Whether that purchaser gets a subsidy or not, still, capped at individual percentage of gross. This is the hard truth for all health insurance, I am convinced. We can’t spend 30% of our individual gross on health insurance. It doesn’t leave enough for everything else.
Let’s just say 15%. 15% of a given purchasers gross is allocated to health insurance. That acts as a cap, and the non-profit entity and the providers they contract with have to find savings. Things like best practices, for both the insurance entity and the provider. It doesn’t have to be “rationing”. It could be more efficient delivery.
In my best case, there’s a public option with 10 million people enrolled and it acts as a catalyst to re-jigger the whole system.
Medicare is a bad example, because Medicare isn’t pegged to percentage of gross, and it’s self-selecting (they’re all old).
General Winfield Stuck
@tc125231:
I don’t know what bill be passed, if any. Otherwise, isn’t that yer mothership calling? Why yes, I think it is.
TenguPhule
Fuck you.
We should only be so lucky it turns out as well as SS did.
Also.
tc125231
@General Winfield Stuck: You don’t know what bill will be passed….pardon my scorn. You seemed quite certain you knew how it would be passed, and you suggested a good deal of wheeler dealing to get it.
To date –there has been no real funding basis proposed in any iteration of the bills discussed. So why –at this late date –would the political horse trading you discussed produce it?
The only thing that has actually been proposed that would produce substantial cost control is a public option. that could happen –but I’ll believe it when I see it.
You’re a smart guy, but you are no more entitled to your own facts than Conservapedia.
General Winfield Stuck
@tc125231:
You are starting to annoy me dude, even though I suspect you are a parody troll. I laid out the options of how it would be passed, and there are only two. By regular order and by reconciliation process. I did not state what would be in the bills if passed, by those two scenarios. That is because no one knows that now, and certainly not you.
I have always said on this blog that I think that RP is the way it has to go for passage, but though slim IMO, I could be wrong and a bill with a decent version of a PO could beat a filibuster.
Now attack for something I actually said, or kindly STFU.
burnspbesq
@Makewi:
The fact that John Kerry is too stupid to understand the fundamentals of actuarial science is not news. Got anything interesting for us?
ominira
@General Winfield Stuck: LOL – best comment on the hand wringing thus far.
Batocchio
Wow. You really need to be trying to fuck over your constituents to come up with that plan.
Lillie Cain
I also believe the Democrats have sold out the working class aka middle class aka those people without a serious savings account or property holdings that hold equity for retirement. Hello, this is a depression not a recession. Many, many, many, many people have lost thier retirement funds and equity in the last 4 years and now are starting over after losing 20 to 30 years of work.
Obama is not helping and niether did any polititian in the last 10 years that has been in the White house in any capacity.
I thought he and Ried carred with their pulic option, but I know that as a Nevadan, this state will not support a public option. The big money would lobby heavy against it.
A person must see that the corporation insurance and banking industry does not even notice a hundred thousand Americans out of work and out of their homes. All they talk about is adding more insurance costs to those that do have a job and are struggling to pay rent. The average rent in LV is $1200 mo. for a 3-4 bedroom in a safe neighborhood. How does that compute on 2 min. wage jobs with kids? It means all you can pay is the rent and insurance on an old beater car.
Wake up. With insurance mandated the insurance companies have the options of bureaucratic law. This is how current insurnance premiums are controlled and these laws never hit a house and senate majority vote. They are simply approved by fed and state agencies, like the Department of Health and Human Services, etc… Do not vote for a guy who will give the Insurance Industry more financial power over your hard earned money.
Mandated insurance premiums is only one more step to make insurance companies richer. It is one more step for the corporations to make slaves of millions of Americans before they know what happened and how it happened.