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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

You don’t get to peddle hatred on saturday and offer condolences on sunday.

Speaker Mike Johnson is a vile traitor to the House and the Constitution.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

the 10% who apparently lack object permanence

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I have other things to bitch about but those will have to wait.

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People really shouldn’t expect the government to help after they watched the GOP drown it in a bathtub.

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The lights are all blinking red.

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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Monday Morning Open Thread (Glimmers of Hope Edition)

Monday Morning Open Thread (Glimmers of Hope Edition)

by Anne Laurie|  October 26, 20094:51 am| 110 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads, Daydream Believers

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In his latest NYT column, Paul Krugman (may he abide in shrillness forever) is so confident we’ll get some kind of health care reform that he’s willing to speculate on how it will be received:

[T]he experience in Massachusetts, which passed major health reform back in 2006, should dampen conservative hopes and soothe progressive fears.

Like the bill that will probably emerge from Congress, the Massachusetts reform mainly relies on a combination of regulation and subsidies to chivy a mostly private system into providing near-universal coverage. It is, to be frank, a bit of a Rube Goldberg device — a complicated way of achieving something that could have been done much more simply with a Medicare-type program…

[R]eform remains popular. Earlier this year, many conservatives, citing misleading poll results, claimed that public support for the Massachusetts reform had plunged. Newer, more careful polling paints a very different picture. The key finding: an overwhelming 79 percent of the public think the reform should be continued, while only 11 percent think it should be repealed.

Interestingly, another recent poll shows similar support among the state’s physicians: 75 percent want to continue the policies; only 7 percent want to see them reversed.

As a proud Massachusetts resident by choice, I can attest it would be hard to get 79% of my fellow Massholes to come out in favor of sunshine and/or kittens. This is good news for Nancy Pelosi!

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Previous Post: « Health care salon money well spent
Next Post: Status quo »

Reader Interactions

110Comments

  1. 1.

    Johnny Pez

    October 26, 2009 at 5:09 am

    Attention! Little Bitsy has fallen behind some rabid Pomeranian. Go here and vote!

  2. 2.

    SiubhanDuinne

    October 26, 2009 at 5:22 am

    Voted. The mangy Pom picked up a ±900 vote lead overnight. This travesty must be stopped!

    How long does this particular round of voting go on, does anyone know? Is it daily for another week?

  3. 3.

    gsp

    October 26, 2009 at 6:40 am

    shit we are down 902 votes. vote for bitsy. No fricking Pom is going to beat a dog of mine.

  4. 4.

    SiubhanDuinne

    October 26, 2009 at 6:46 am

    Not to change the subject — okay, to change the subject — but Mika is an idiot.

    Mika, sweetheart, it’s not called a “newspaper-written op-ed.” It’s called an *editorial*. It’s called that because it’s written by the newspaper’s *editors*.

  5. 5.

    henqiguai

    October 26, 2009 at 7:09 am

    …to come out in favor of sunshine and/or kittens.

    Hey ! Sunshine is alright, in moderation. Preferably when I don’t have to be out in it. Kittens ? Well, I got two cats (‘though I will grant you, one’s continued existence is occasionally in question); does that count ?

  6. 6.

    Ambergris

    October 26, 2009 at 7:14 am

    I hate how the republicans and the insurance companies have created a web of misinformation to block reform at every step of the way. For example, I thought that the Massachusetts reform was a failure and noone liked it (so they told me), but it turns out that it’s actually popular and not more expensive than previously thought. The same is true for the british health-care system. Inspite of republican propaganda people really like it and it works. Or the french healthcare system, it’s the best of the world, but…. it’s french!

  7. 7.

    SGEW

    October 26, 2009 at 7:18 am

    The last line of Krugman’s piece:

    This thing is going to work.

    It’s like an anti-shrill op-ed! I honestly can’t remember the last time a Krugman column sounded so optimistic.

    Oh, hope. What a strange sensation.

    (Other glimmers of hope in my NYT this morning: U.S. Considers Reining In ‘Too Big to Fail’ Institutions; and Energy Dept. Aid for Scientists on the Edge.)

  8. 8.

    bob h

    October 26, 2009 at 7:49 am

    The Hawaiian experience is even happier; a mandate, full coverage, low costs, and practically no private insurers.

  9. 9.

    Cataphract

    October 26, 2009 at 8:05 am

    As a straight up Masshole, I’ve got no complaints with the state coverage. Once again, MA is first.

  10. 10.

    Morbo

    October 26, 2009 at 8:09 am

    Must… end… Pomeranian tyranny!

  11. 11.

    Napoleon

    October 26, 2009 at 8:19 am

    @Morbo:

    Must… end… Pomeranian tyranny!

    Hey! I grew up with a Pomeranian, so watch what you are saying.

  12. 12.

    kay

    October 26, 2009 at 8:30 am

    @Ambergris:

    “Republicans and health insurers creating a web of misinformation” might be a little narrow.

    Certain parties vitally interested in the failure of national health care reform created a web of misinformation.

    But why have so many misconceptions and outright lies about reform taken hold? Why has it taken six months for individual actors like Krugman to reach cumulative critical mass and refute the lies?

    It’s as if media got together in April and said “how can we make this discussion as confusing, contradictory and dishonest as humanely possible? Let’s see. We’ll establish a set of lies, and see how adept the reformers are at refuting them.”

    .

  13. 13.

    Davis X. Machina

    October 26, 2009 at 8:31 am

    The official line is that a purchase mandate is unconstitutional, necessitating civil disobedience, and mass protest. It will cost the Democrats the White House and Congress in 2012, either by abstention or third-party voting.

    Because all of that happened in the most Democratic state in the Union when a similar plan went in in 2006/7…

    (Me, I want an NHS-US type health service. But some folks have to stop hyperventilating.)

  14. 14.

    Comrade Darkness

    October 26, 2009 at 8:38 am

    Pommie bastard!

    The rules, however, are: Four Finalists: Four (4) Finalists are determined by the judges. You may attempt to influence the judges decisions by voting for the dog(s) you feel should advance into a Finalist position.

    The judges are supposedly only taking this round of voting as suggestive, apparently. Good thing? Bad thing?

  15. 15.

    Violet

    October 26, 2009 at 8:43 am

    The Pomeranian must go down! Good lord, where did all those votes come from? I hope Bitsy is in the Top 4 anyway. When are they supposed to decide? I thought the contest ended at midnight last night?

    Back to the healthcare – insurance companies are useless. They are just legalized mechanisms to skim money off the top, at this point. I do not see their point.

    Krugman is right. The system must be reformed. Ordinary people know that. Doctors know that. Insurance companies know it means they’ll make less money so they don’t want it to happen. That’s the ONLY reason they’re fighting it so hard. Greedy, selfish bastards.

  16. 16.

    Demo Woman

    October 26, 2009 at 8:48 am

    @Violet: When I rise in the morning, I fix my coffee and then as soon as the computer is up and running, I vote for Bitsy.
    I’ll do this until someone tells me to stop.

  17. 17.

    Violet

    October 26, 2009 at 8:52 am

    @Demo Woman:
    LOL. Me too. Vote, vote vote!

  18. 18.

    Fulcanelli

    October 26, 2009 at 8:59 am

    Kind of off topic I know, but… @SGEW: They’re considering? Considering it? That should strike fear in the heart of the Wall Street vampire squid that’s for sure. I’m so relieved. Green shoots. Also.

    IMO the millions and millions of jobs lost over the last 25 years from globalization and cheaper overseas labor aren’t coming back from the Stimulus plan, the existing corporate American gene pool or it’s venture capitalists investing domestically. They people with the real big money and clout in Congress are too fucking spoiled and have been for too long. Economic patriotism is for the little guys, remember?

    They can make millions yearly on paper just staring at computer screens calculating their wealth generated overseas literally by the minute, have almost complete control over the process and avoid all the hassles of labor, regulations and the expenses involved in starting up and running a major brick and mortar business and all the rest. Why would they? There’s a generation of American financiers who know nothing else. Run a business? Deal with Unions, OSHA and EPA regulations and building permits? Deal with working people?

    Fuck that, I’ll invest my money in an overseas company and let somebody else deal with it. That’s why I bought a Senator.

    The next generation’s jobs are going to come from new small businesses and existing small and medium sized businesses growing and hiring people and that’s gonna take a long time, folks.

    About the only thing we need to ‘consider’ is how long to torture these bastards and the congress critters who facilitated the ruin of the American economy, and where to distribute their ill gotten gains.

  19. 19.

    bystander

    October 26, 2009 at 9:00 am

    You mean we’re at it for another whole week? This is a zombie competition, right?

    For folks who had to stumble around, like me…

    If you go to the Cutest Dog Blog (hoping to see results – nope!) you are offered a link that reads:

    show your support here

    which takes you nowhere. The url in that link has an error, but clicking on the graphic of the week 1-12 winners does take you to a voting page. As I write this…

    Commissioner James Gordon: 3935
    Little Bitsy: 3044

  20. 20.

    Jean

    October 26, 2009 at 9:00 am

    I voted for Bitsy AGAIN. It’s more satisfying than reading about whipping the health care votes.

  21. 21.

    geg6

    October 26, 2009 at 9:01 am

    Voted for Bitsy!

    In other news, thank to all who sent good thoughts to Cane, my John’s daughter’s dog. He came through the surgery and I hope to get an update soon. He’s a cute boxer who is too good a dog for that girl (yes, she’s 24 but she’s so immature and irresponsible I refuse to call her a woman). For those who don’t know, she ran him over in the driveway because she was too busy smoking and talking on the phone to pay attention to where the dog might be.

    And yes, I’m furious with her. And so is John.

  22. 22.

    Fulcanelli

    October 26, 2009 at 9:04 am

    @geg6: She ran over her own dog because of talking on a cell phone? Good God.

  23. 23.

    Violet

    October 26, 2009 at 9:06 am

    @geg6:

    Oh, no! How awful. Somehow I’d missed this story before. What a terrible thing for her to do. I’m so sorry. But glad Cane’s doing okay after the emergency surgery. Please keep us posted. Sending good wishes for a speedy recovery.

  24. 24.

    Comrade Darkness

    October 26, 2009 at 9:08 am

    @bystander: i think they are using the same software they were using before, so it is still allowing votes for a new day. But the votes are presumably time stamped, so I suspect they will simply throw away anything after 3am EST this morning. Since that is very easy to do.

    But in the meantime, vote Bitsy anyway!

  25. 25.

    valdivia

    October 26, 2009 at 9:09 am

    voted Bitsy.
    Who is that Pomeranian and how did this happen???

  26. 26.

    Violet

    October 26, 2009 at 9:11 am

    @valdivia:

    Dunno who he is, except he’s the Week 2 winner. In my recent perusals of the dog blog, his is not a name I’d seen mentioned before.

  27. 27.

    geg6

    October 26, 2009 at 9:11 am

    @Fulcanelli:

    Yes. Unbelievable, right? This is typical behavior for her. She is notorious in the neighborhood because she is always smoking and talking on the phone while driving. The house is on a major road in the area and we often hear horns and screeching brakes as she pulls out. She hit the house once. She also ran over a rose bush that is at least 6 feet from the driveway. She’s going to kill someone or herself one of these days.

    @Violet:

    Will do. Thanks.

  28. 28.

    Jack

    October 26, 2009 at 9:13 am

    @Ambergris:

    What do the Republicans matter when its the intrepid Dems handing away the Commons, removing employer mandate, setting up individual mandates, allowing the insurance racket to jack up costs and prices (to these now captive customers), and establishing exchanges which allow insurance thieves to reorganize, get more tax dollars and still raise premiums?

    The Republicans don’t matter. Olympia Snowe doesn’t matter. It’s the Dems who’ve handed this entire thing away…

    …to the insurance companies.

    Get ready for individual mandates and no price controls.

    Dolled up as “reform.”

  29. 29.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 26, 2009 at 9:13 am

    @geg6: I’m glad Cane is going to be OK. I hope John’s daughter gets her head out of her ass and acts like a grownup. Still sending strong vibes to Cane and keep us posted.

    I voted for Lil Bitsy, too. The hell? Poms on either side of her! I, too, will vote until someone tells me to stop.

    I <3 Paul Krugman. He is my economic crush. I would love to buy him a drink and talk with him about economics all night long.

    As for healthcare reform, I am weary of it. I know we have a long ways to go, but I am spent.

  30. 30.

    Ash Can

    October 26, 2009 at 9:15 am

    But why have so many misconceptions and outright lies about reform taken hold?

    I think this is an awfully good question, and I would love to see the corporate media come under some very close scrutiny on this. The White House, for one — from Barack Obama on down — have been pounding the table on the lies and falsehoods for months now, but they’re getting no traction in the press. Part of the reason, I’m sure, is that the reform effort is being spearheaded by Congress, and as a result there are multiple bills in the works. Baucus’s bill has been the bill du jour in the eyes of the press for a while, and they’ve been reporting on it almost exclusively (which has spurred the howl-fests we’ve seen here and on other moderate/progressive boards from time to time). Also, different Congressfolks say different things to the press, and the press latch on to each of these statements as they’re made and run like hell with them, further obfuscating the picture. But this still doesn’t excuse the press (such as it is) from keeping things in perspective and covering the whole story.

    As I keep saying, I suspect insurance industry kickbacks to the corporate media. I’m willing to admit, though, that it could very well be a factor of nothing more than sheer laziness, a mentality of “I finally landed a plum job; now I can relax.” I’d find it much harder to believe that every reporter at every news organization is in ideological lockstep with the GOP. There are plenty who are, to be sure, but all of them? That’s a stretch.

  31. 31.

    Comrade Darkness

    October 26, 2009 at 9:17 am

    @valdivia: wondering that myself, I went to the contest blog, where on the later announcements they actually said which sites the votes came from. This one was week 2. I couldn’t stomach more than a page of comments full of pleas for votes for other Pomeranians in the contest so I don’t know if the vote getting was discussed. The assumption seemed to be that if you voted for one pomeranian, you will vote for any of them. Probably true, actually.

  32. 32.

    valdivia

    October 26, 2009 at 9:18 am

    @Violet:

    thanks for the info. It seems suspicious though. Another pomeranian. ugh.

  33. 33.

    SGEW

    October 26, 2009 at 9:18 am

    @geg6: Very glad to hear that he came through the surgery! Really hoping that he’ll be ok.

    As to the inattentive driver – one can only hope that this winds up being a valuable lesson for her about due care, and about what terribly precious things we can lose from our negligence.

    Also, @Fulcanelli: “Considering” is a step up from “dismissing out of hand,” in my opinion. It’s about “glimmers of hope,” after all, not “concrete and unmistakable milestones indicating substantive progress towards justice and equity.”

    And I’m all about hope today! It’s a sunny day, my cat’s purring at my feet, I’ve been livin’ la dolce vita this month, and Bitsy’s a semifinalist; why not indulge in a little hope mongering on this fine fall morning? Mind you, the flu-like-symptoms I’m enjoying at the moment puts a bit of a damper on this, but what th’ heck.

  34. 34.

    Jack

    October 26, 2009 at 9:19 am

    @Ash Can:

    It’s the ratchet.

    Smith has the best of it:

    http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org/stopme/chapter02.html

    And perhaps why the Dems continually betray reform, et al:

    http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org/stopme/chapter14.html

    They are both corporate parties. The Dems are the Other Corporate Party. Sure, they’re led by people who prefer nice words to threats and allegations, but they still serve the same class and the same interests as Republicans.

    They are not better people, with substantially better aims and goals, never mind methods. They do better PR.

  35. 35.

    August J. Pollak

    October 26, 2009 at 9:20 am

    Good lord, where did all those votes come from?

    The pomeranian belongs to the creator of a popular webcomic, so both he and all his webcomic artist friends are linking everyone to the vote.

  36. 36.

    Comrade Darkness

    October 26, 2009 at 9:21 am

    @geg6: too old for reform school, how about army enlistment? Or a life-changing gig volunteering at a charity in an AIDs stricken African country?

  37. 37.

    Persia

    October 26, 2009 at 9:22 am

    @Violet: Maybe it’s a Bat-fans’ entry?

  38. 38.

    valdivia

    October 26, 2009 at 9:22 am

    @Comrade Darkness:
    lol. yes, but I think this gives Bitsy a better chance.

  39. 39.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 26, 2009 at 9:22 am

    It is looking like a good week here. Another job interview tomorrow. Green Bay won, Vikes and Bears lost. God is in his heaven and allis right with the world.

    Voted for Bitsy. Also.

  40. 40.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 26, 2009 at 9:23 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: All is right, not allis right. Where is my edit function?

  41. 41.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 26, 2009 at 9:24 am

    @Ash Can: I would like to comment on your last paragraph.

    As I keep saying, I suspect insurance industry kickbacks to the corporate media. I’m willing to admit, though, that it could very well be a factor of nothing more than sheer laziness, a mentality of “I finally landed a plum job; now I can relax.” I’d find it much harder to believe that every reporter at every news organization is in ideological lockstep with the GOP. There are plenty who are, to be sure, but all of them? That’s a stretch.

    I have no idea as to your first stipulation (though I think that corporate interests are at heart of the clusterfuck of obtuseness the media as a collective is showing), but I have to argue with the second point. There is no way in hell that members of the media can not know that what they’re saying is a pack of lies. They would have to be willfully ignoring the evidence before their eyes if that were the case. In that case, it’s not laziness but a deliberate choice to not allow reality to permeate their articles.

    I think they are interested in preserving the status quo. In addition, controversy sells. “Everyone but the Republicans and the insurance companies agree that a public option is ideas” is not sexy nor very eye-catching.

  42. 42.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 26, 2009 at 9:26 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: Congrats on the interview. Good luck with it. As to your gloating about the Pack–bite me.

  43. 43.

    Jane2

    October 26, 2009 at 9:27 am

    Health care, shmealth care….Little Bitsy’s shot at fame and fortune is at stake! Some skanky pomeranian (I’m running with the webcam reference above) is outright stealing the election….

  44. 44.

    General Winfield Stuck

    October 26, 2009 at 9:27 am

    Now we have some serious wanking from lefty blogs, quoting “unnamed sources” that Obama is trying to scuttle a public option. Doesn’t matter that the WH has put out statements that this is hogwash and actually signs these statements with names of real people. And now Harry Reid is the unlikely hero to thwart Obama’s best efforts to sell the farm. And, of course, when a PO is passed it will be because of their (liberal blogs) wanking to keep Obama straight.

    Sometimes, It’s just too much headache to be a democrat. Gone Galt.

  45. 45.

    Jack

    October 26, 2009 at 9:29 am

    @asiangrrlMN:

    Of course they know. They belong to the same class. They serve the same class interests. GE and Disney and Viacom aren’t interested in a reformed economy or political order. They’re interested in a re-inflated credit bubble.

    The Dems can be trusted only so far as to fix government enough to keep the rich in riches. But, no stink of actual reform will be tolerated by the merchant princes who run our country. Unless it’s largesse thrown at corporations and labeled “reform.”

    Or, as Smith notes (and Zinn covered in depth in the History), fear at the thought a real and incendiary leftism:

    http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org/stopme/chapter03.html

  46. 46.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 26, 2009 at 9:29 am

    @asiangrrlMN: Well, let’s see how things go next week before you get too testy with me.

  47. 47.

    Brian J

    October 26, 2009 at 9:31 am

    Anne Laurie,

    It seems like people are talking about the experiences of Massachusetts a lot lately, which makes sense, since it’s one of the few relevant examples we have. Maybe it’s just me, but I feel as if people are describing how costs have gone up but without explaining why.

    Speaking purely in the abstract, it makes sense that costs went up. More people are being covered, and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if these people turned out to be more of a drain on the system, at least at first, if their health was worse since they didn’t have coverage before. There’s also the issue of the recession, which may have–I’m not entirely sure about this–shot up the costs for the government only because that’s now the provider, as opposed to a private company. So, it seems like it’d make more sense to look at whether costs went up compared to other institutions and why, but nobody is doing that.

    Or are they? As a Massachusetts resident, do you have any links that discuss this?

    Now, more generally, I think there’s definitely something to the idea that it’s more important, both in political and moral terms, to pass the extension of coverage and then worry about the cost controls. I’m not sure of the economic reasoning behind it, if there is any, but I’ve seen a bunch of economists make this argument.

  48. 48.

    Parole Officer Burke

    October 26, 2009 at 9:34 am

    @Jack:

    Yes, there is no real difference between the aims and goals of the Democratic party and the Republican party. This was clearly demonstrated by President McCain’s acceptance of the Nobel Peace Prize, by Vice President Palin’s support for hate crimes legislation that includes LGBT victims, by Energy Secretary Inhofe’s acceptance of climate change science, and by Senator Obama’s statement that health care reform would violate the Tenth Amendment.

    Ralph Nader 2012!

  49. 49.

    geg6

    October 26, 2009 at 9:34 am

    @Comrade Darkness:

    This girl is nothing but problems. The most irresponsible, lazy, disrespectful 25 year old I’ve ever met. She lives at John’s in her own apartment, rent and utilities free. Won’t clean up the dog poop outside. Keeps Cane either in his kennel inside or chained up outside for hours and hours with no companionship (at least until John or I take care of him). Sleeps all day and is out all night. Only works 3 days a week bartending at a crappy dive bar. Flunked out of 3 colleges (UMass, Robert Morris U, and local community college). Doesn’t clean house or help maintain yard. And her mother just enables her by giving her $500 a week, which she blows on stuff like getting her eyebrows waxed. John, guilty divorced dad who only got bi-weekly visitation that he is, has told her to move out (and to take her free-loading boyfriend with her–yes, the boyfriend stays most nights). But he won’t do what I would do, i.e., change the locks and put her stuff out in the driveway.

    And people wonder why I never wanted kids.

  50. 50.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 26, 2009 at 9:34 am

    Now, more generally, I think there’s definitely something to the idea that it’s more important, both in political and moral terms, to pass the extension of coverage and then worry about the cost controls. I’m not sure of the economic reasoning behind it, if there is any, but I’ve seen a bunch of economists make this argument.

    This is only true if you think of people as, well, you know, people. I am pretty convinced that HCR opponents do not do that. As a matter of fact, that is my take on right wing Republicans in general.

  51. 51.

    Jack

    October 26, 2009 at 9:41 am

    @Parole Officer Burke:

    This is what I wrote:

    It’s the ratchet.

    Smith has the best of it:

    http://stopmebeforeivoteagain……ter02.html

    And perhaps why the Dems continually betray reform, et al:

    http://stopmebeforeivoteagain……ter14.html

    They are both corporate parties. The Dems are the Other Corporate Party. Sure, they’re led by people who prefer nice words to threats and allegations, but they still serve the same class and the same interests as Republicans.

    They are not better people, with substantially better aims and goals, never mind methods. They do better PR.

    This is what you wrote:

    Yes, there is no real difference between the aims and goals of the Democratic party and the Republican party. This was clearly demonstrated by President McCain’s acceptance of the Nobel Peace Prize, by Vice President Palin’s support for hate crimes legislation that includes LGBT victims, by Energy Secretary Inhofe’s acceptance of climate change science, and by Senator Obama’s statement that health care reform would violate the Tenth Amendment.

    Ralph Nader 2012!

    You respond to an assertion I did not make. These are parties which serve the same class interests.

    Class interests. Not identical on all issues. Not allied sides in the culture wars which benefit both parties. Not sharing overlapping or identical constituencies.

    Having the same class interests.

    Which has nothing to do with Nader, though it is cute that you’re so original that you’d mock with his name tossed out like a totem. So much better than an actual argument.

  52. 52.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 26, 2009 at 9:41 am

    @Jack: Yup. I agree with your first paragraph. I also agree that many Dems are comfortably in the pockets of the same corporations/industries. I disagree, however, that ALL Dems are bought. I think, overall, that many of the Democratic Party actually believe in healthcare reform. It’s just not easy to go against the machine.

    @Omnes Omnibus: Well, I am conflicted. I actually don’t like how Favre treated Green Bay, so I would like to see Favre sacked many times. But, in the end, I bleed purple, so I will be rooting for AP to take it to the house in the last second to win the game by one point.

    @geg6: Wow. Maybe you can doggynap Cane, the poor thing. I wish John well in standing firm in his tough-love approach. The girl will be better for it in the end.

  53. 53.

    Violet

    October 26, 2009 at 9:41 am

    @geg6:
    Jeez, that’s terrible. He’s kind of letting her get away with it, isn’t he? I can understand letting her stay rent free for a short while as she gets herself together, but endlessly? No way. At $500 a week, she could easily find a place to stay. A lot of people don’t earn that much money and still manage.

  54. 54.

    Jack

    October 26, 2009 at 9:42 am

    Ugh, the block quote function is not reliable. Checked and double checked it and it still failed.

  55. 55.

    Laura W

    October 26, 2009 at 9:42 am

    @geg6: And people wonder why you hesitate to move in with him. Lord. If that’s part of the perk package, walk on by?

  56. 56.

    Violet

    October 26, 2009 at 9:44 am

    @Laura W:
    Good point, Laura. No way I’d move in with a guy who had a adult daughter freeloading. When he gets that stuff sorted out, maybe you could consider it. Would that kind of talk make him rethink his approach?

    Laura – what’s the latest on Bitsy?

  57. 57.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 26, 2009 at 9:45 am

    @asiangrrlMN: I understand your point of view. I, however, am only able to agree with your opinion about Favre and his need to be sacked again and again and again. Beyond that, we will have to agree to disagree.

  58. 58.

    Jack

    October 26, 2009 at 9:45 am

    @asiangrrlMN:

    I didn’t suggest that they’re all bought. I suggested that they can’t be counted on to violate their own class interests. That includes Obama, Rahm, Baucus and the Clintonoids most especially.*

    We’re not going to get a “substantial reform” that isn’t disguised hand outs to insurance providers if they don’t have a real left to fear and dread, instead of the useful lever pullers who keep the Dems in Egyptian cotton.

    * -Unless they are truly rare, such as the tragically lost Paul Wellstone.

  59. 59.

    Fulcanelli

    October 26, 2009 at 9:46 am

    @geg6: Divorced dad of 15 years with two bright, hard working, respectable and responsible daughters aged 16 and 22 that live(d) with my ex who was a flake. It can be done in a difficult divorce situation. Let me talk to ’em. He’ll be hauling her stuff to the Salvation Army when I’m done.

  60. 60.

    Comrade Darkness

    October 26, 2009 at 9:46 am

    @geg6: yeah, enabling is not love, not at this age. Actually, probably not at any age.

    I hope the dog recovers all right. He doesn’t deserve this.

    Too bad she didn’t run over the boyfriend.

  61. 61.

    wilfred

    October 26, 2009 at 9:52 am

    Do any of the health plans being discussed cover these people?

    Over the past two years, government officials and experts have seen an increasing number of children leave home for life on the streets, including many under 13. Foreclosures, layoffs, rising food and fuel prices and inadequate supplies of low-cost housing have stretched families to the extreme, and those pressures have trickled down to teenagers and preteens

    Unbelievable. Maybe there’s some spare fucking change left over from the No Bank Left Behind Act. Capitalism in its crudest ugliest form Manchester 1840, America 1930’s, NYC 2009. What a goddamned disgrace.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/26/us/26runaway.html?_r=1&hp

  62. 62.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 26, 2009 at 9:53 am

    @Jack: OK. Sorry I misunderstood your point, but I still disagree, at least about Obama not being willing to vote (or sign in his case) against his own class. The very fact that we have enough votes to pass reform belies this point. There are more factors at play than just people protecting their own class.

    I DO agree that the left needs to keep on pressuring the Dems to do the right thing and pass as strong a healthcare reform bill as possible. I also think the few progressives who have shown some spine need to be even louder. Follow Grayson’s example and get in the face of the Republicans, and, more importantly, the talking heads. The media needs to be metaphorically punched in the face a few times in order to realize that the Dems will not roll over and play dead any longer.

  63. 63.

    Chad N Freude

    October 26, 2009 at 9:59 am

    @Ash Can:

    I’m willing to admit, though, that it could very well be a factor of nothing more than sheer laziness, a mentality of “I finally landed a plum job; now I can relax.” I’d find it much harder to believe that every reporter at every news organization is in ideological lockstep with the GOP. There are plenty who are, to be sure, but all of them?

    Let’s see how many reasons we can come up with.

    1. Laziness.
    2. Incuriosity.
    3. Lack of critical thinking skills.
    4. Misunderstanding of what a journalist is supposed to do.
    5. Fear of alienating sources.
    6. Fear of not rising to insider status.
    7. Editorial control by publishers and editorial higher-ups.

    Can anybody think of anything else?

  64. 64.

    Laura W

    October 26, 2009 at 9:59 am

    @Violet: Nothing in my inbox from Sylia yet but I did mail her incredulous that the contest overlords apparently think that four winners and their persons can hop flights to Chicago at the 12th hour in time for a rehearsal tomorrow afternoon?
    Seems pretty inconvenient and inconsiderate to me, but I have control issues when it comes to respect for my time and the scheduling thereof.

  65. 65.

    Svensker

    October 26, 2009 at 9:59 am

    Voting for Bitsy appears to still be open. Don’t get this but whatever. You can vote here.

  66. 66.

    Jack

    October 26, 2009 at 10:05 am

    @asiangrrlMN:

    It’s not “reform” if it’s mandatory and still more expensive. It’s Part D for insurance companies. And that’s a real shame, since it sets up nicely for the ne’er do wells in the GOP.

    There’s a point where “universal coverage” is not actually a benefit to the covered, and that point is where it hurts the insured more than the status quo. What good is universality, if rising prices, falling wages and reduced receipts combine to make it a trap and not a leg up?

    I get the arguments that single payer is not feasible with this batch of Congress bums, even if I think Obama could have driven it hard as a first option, with fall back to a less comprehensive public plan which still forced insurance providers to level out or go belly up.

    But that’s not what is happening, here.

    The nation isn’t Massachusetts, where considerable social benefit spending was already in place, where a New England culture of social tolerance exists side by side with a long tradition of good faith redistribution.

    This is a nation where the insurance companies can move to Nebraska, reorganize and sell their plans to mandated customers, under laughable state laws – in at least two of the versions floating around the Senate.

    Obama is better than Bush, yes.

    But that doesn’t really mean much, since he’s continuing Bush plans in Iraq, Afghanistan, Wall Street and the Pentagon. Since he backed off on Gitmo and doesn’t dare address Bagram or his own JDs attempts to use coerced testimony to keep demonstrably innocent men in US custody…

  67. 67.

    Parole Officer Burke

    October 26, 2009 at 10:06 am

    @Jack:

    I was mocking the implication that “class interests” entirely define a political party’s “goals and interests” in toto, and the associated over-simplification of the socio-economic divisions in the U.S.A. into an all-or-nothing 19th century class divide, without acknowledging any difference in degree, effect, or institutionalisation of corporate governance between the various competing interests or political parties. Name dropping Ralph Nader was a handy short hand for this position (I could have used “Billionaires for Bush or Gore” circa 2000 for the same effect and for similar criticism, I suppose).

    I acknowledge that you did not explicitly assert this implication, but that was the inference I made – all apologies, I’m sure, if you had a more nuanced point to make that I snarked all over. Do you? Or do you really believe that both the Democratic and Republican parties are first and foremost “Corporate” parties whose “class interests” are identical and inter-changeable, and that this is a framework that has more relevance than any other in explaining, say, pending health care legislation?

  68. 68.

    geg6

    October 26, 2009 at 10:07 am

    @Violet:

    We’ve had that talk. Told him I won’t do it until she is gone.

    @asiangrrlMN:

    Just talked to John. He is bringing the dog into the upstairs for the duration. Cane will end up his/our dog.

    @Comrade Darkness:

    LOL! Yes, the boyfriend is more deserving of being run over than the dog. You and Fulcanelli have the right idea. But, although I give my opinion when I’m asked, I really can’t make him do what he and I both know is right. This girl needs some tough love. John just can’t yet bring himself to do it. Personally, I think she’s on drugs. I see too many similar behaviors to that which I know is consistent with cokeheads I’ve know in the past.

  69. 69.

    Jack

    October 26, 2009 at 10:08 am

    @Parole Officer Burke:

    Addressed above. Perhaps if you’d read instead of reacted, you’d have, y’know, read it.

  70. 70.

    pcbedamned

    October 26, 2009 at 10:09 am

    What can you expect from a media and Party that sold you the WMD fiasco, 2 wars, tells you the rest of the world is either ‘soci@list’ or ‘commie’ and could never survive without the great USA, all muslims are terrorists, only Americans can really be patriotic (because well, every other country in the world sucks don’t ya know and we are the greatest country ever!), and universal health care will KILL GRANDMA!!!!

    @geg6
    I guess (know) my parents had it right after all. When my brother and I graduated high school we had until the end of June to find a job and start paying board ($50/week – which is the 80’s seemed like a lot of $) if we were not going to stay in school. I got a job; lasted a week, quit and went back to school the following September. I have told my own 2 rats that they can have 5 years of high school and either 3 years for college or 4 for University (which they have to pay for themselves) and then they are outahere…
    Life is tough. Get used to it.
    (harsh maybe, but then again I am a Conservative, albeit Canadian :)

  71. 71.

    Chad N Freude

    October 26, 2009 at 10:10 am

    @wilfred: You’re not seeing the upside of this. They can sell their bodies, they can panhandle, they can sell drugs. This gives the kids an early start on independence and entrepreneurism. It’s good for the Free Market(tm).

    This is the worst socioeconomic failure yet. Where is Charles Dickens when we need him?

    Oh, and thank you for ruining my morning/day/week/rest of my life with that link.

  72. 72.

    Parole Officer Burke

    October 26, 2009 at 10:16 am

    @Jack: Pardon me for taking longer than one minute to type my response, and my inability to simultaneously read your newly posted comment. Ahem.

    I see that your point may be more along the lines of “. . . [Obama is] continuing Bush plans in Iraq, Afghanistan, Wall Street and the Pentagon.” To which I say: folderol. If that’s all you can take away from the last nine months of this administration, or from the Democratic majority in Congress, you are being needlessly obtuse.

    “Lesser of two evils” results in less net evil. “A pox on both your houses” results in more net pox.

  73. 73.

    2th&nayle

    October 26, 2009 at 10:17 am

    @geg6: I feel your pain! Just ended a 10-year relationship with a woman I really care for over just such a daughter (and her 2 kids, both of whom I fell in love with, naturally). I finally figured out that I was beatin’ my head against the wall over something that was beyond my limitations and I resolved to let it go. Only reason I bring this up is to let you know that the situation ain’t rare. Stand your ground. Good Luck!

  74. 74.

    Comrade Darkness

    October 26, 2009 at 10:17 am

    I have to say this, and then off to work:

    People who put clothes on their dogs (aside from a halloween costume in season) need to seek therapy.

    Thank you for listening.

  75. 75.

    pcbedamned

    October 26, 2009 at 10:21 am

    @Comrade Darkness:

    I put bright orange vests on my 4 during hunting season while they are outside…
    Do I need therapy?!?

  76. 76.

    Molly

    October 26, 2009 at 10:23 am

    @geg6: “Personally, I think she’s on drugs. I see too many similar behaviors to that which I know is consistent with cokeheads I’ve know in the past.”

    Bingo. She’s got free money and no real responsibilities, except for a dog she’s not capable of taking care of and a job at a bar when she’s probably getting her supply anyway (speaking as a former bartender who watched money and drugs go over the bar as much as vodka).

    Best thing John can do is let her find her own way.

  77. 77.

    Violet

    October 26, 2009 at 10:25 am

    @Laura W:

    Nothing in my inbox from Sylia yet but I did mail her incredulous that the contest overlords apparently think that four winners and their persons can hop flights to Chicago at the 12th hour in time for a rehearsal tomorrow afternoon? Seems pretty inconvenient and inconsiderate to me, but I have control issues when it comes to respect for my time and the scheduling thereof.

    I agree. Found this explanation from the dog contest blog admin:

    TO ALL – Yes, we have just received an invitation/opportunity to pick the winner live on the Oprah Winfrey Show. We will update you with the full details as soon as they are finalized. We understand this is not what we had posted on the site since day one, and for that we apologize. We hope the winners don’t mind picking up their prizes a little earlier than expected… in front of about a billion onlookers. Admin.

    Sounds like Oprah just decided she wanted in on it. If you’re trying to use this contest to advertise your product, as they seem to be doing, you don’t say no to Oprah!

    More from the same blog post on how they’re doing their marketing via this contest. I know I’ll have blockquote fail with so many paragraphs, so I am not even bothering:

    “TO F.SALAS – On the contrary, the marketing team and the programmers will probably get a raise for their efforts in creating such a modern concept for a contest that utilizes social networking to promote a product. Think of it this way… Instead of uploading a photo and coming back in 3 months to see if your photo was picked by the judges (like all the other contests), instead, we put the power in YOUR hands. The fate of your contest results rested in your hands the moment you uploaded that photo. Some people knew just what to do and ran with it, while others watched in amazement as some dogs pulled in close to 10,000 votes in one week.

    In just 12 weeks, the contest generated over 200,000,000 page views from over 6,000,000 unique visitors for over 60,000 entries.

    If the decision were up to you F. SALAS, would you have spent the $1,000,000 on TV ads for your product, or done something more fun like this for the canine community? Don’t make us rethink our decision to go this route.

    Since we were the pioneers of this new concept for a contest we had to make some adjustments along the way, and we thank you for your patience while we worked out the bugs.”

  78. 78.

    Steeplejack

    October 26, 2009 at 10:28 am

    Once more into the breach! I just voted for Bitsy and see that she is down 4,284-3,402 to that pommy bastard Commissioner James Gordon. WTF?! Vote, people.

    (My apologies to whichever members of the former British empire I insulted with “pommy bastard,” but it rolls so trippingly off the tongue.)

  79. 79.

    Steeplejack

    October 26, 2009 at 10:28 am

    Once more into the breach! I just voted for Bitsy and see that she is down 4,284-3,402 to that pommy bastard Commissioner James Gordon. WTF?! Vote, people.

    (My apologies to whichever members of the former British empire I insulted with “pommy bastard,” but it rolls so trippingly off the tongue.)

  80. 80.

    ironranger

    October 26, 2009 at 10:28 am

    @geg6:
    Just snarky curiosity but does the mom pay the daughter $500 a week so daughter won’t live with her?

  81. 81.

    kay

    October 26, 2009 at 10:35 am

    @wilfred:

    Do any of the health plans being discussed cover these people?

    I work with them, and it’s a little more complicated than that.

    Parents resist turning to social services because it’s intrusive: help from “the Agency” means the agency is camped in your living room, and the police are right behind them.

    Kids resist because they’re headed to foster or group homes as “delinquent” or “dependent” children.

    We can and will physically shelter them, Wilfred. They’re savvy. They know the trade-offs they’ll have to make for that help. They’re right, too. It’s not a given that “help” will make anything better.

  82. 82.

    asiangrrlMN

    October 26, 2009 at 10:39 am

    @Jack: I haven’t seen anything of substance yet that leads me to believe that insurance will be mandated AND there will be no public option. When I see concrete proof that this is going to be in the bill, then I will get even more pissed off than I already am about the healthcare reform debate. Until then, I will remain moderately pissed-off and convinced that having the Dems in charge, while exceedingly frustrating, is head and shoulders better than having the Republicans at the helm.

  83. 83.

    geg6

    October 26, 2009 at 10:42 am

    @ironranger:

    You know, I wonder that also. Mom is nuts, so make of it what you will.

  84. 84.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    October 26, 2009 at 10:43 am

    How the hell did Bitsy get entered into the World’s Cutest Pomeranian contest in the first place? Is she part Pomeranian?

  85. 85.

    Comrade Darkness

    October 26, 2009 at 10:51 am

    @pcbedamned: I should have been specific, towards the purposes of anthropomorphization.

    Working dogs wearing necessary work equipment probably don’t count. Are you sewing merit badges on those orange vests?

  86. 86.

    Ash Can

    October 26, 2009 at 10:56 am

    @geg6: Add me to those who think John should change the locks and leave Daughter’s stuff (minus the dog) piled at the curb. And maybe alert the neighborhood cops to the possibility of a domestic disturbance when she finds herself on the outside looking in.

    Tough to do, I’m sure. But if John doesn’t have the heart to do it, well, I feel sorry for him. And for the daughter. And for you.

  87. 87.

    Cain

    October 26, 2009 at 10:57 am

    @General Winfield Stuck:

    Now we have some serious wanking from lefty blogs, quoting “unnamed sources” that Obama is trying to scuttle a public option. Doesn’t matter that the WH has put out statements that this is hogwash and actually signs these statements with names of real people. And now Harry Reid is the unlikely hero to thwart Obama’s best efforts to sell the farm. And, of course, when a PO is passed it will be because of their (liberal blogs) wanking to keep Obama straight.

    This seems like Huffingtonpost bullshit. Lately, they’ve been really hitting the yellow journalism hard with ridiculous headlines.

    cain

  88. 88.

    pcbedamned

    October 26, 2009 at 11:02 am

    @Comrade Darkness:

    Sorry, I should have been more clear myself.
    My boys aren’t hunting dogs. I live in the NE of Ontario in a heavily hunted area and one of my boys is a coydog so I worry someone might make a mistake and shoot him. As well, I have invisible fencing so my boys spend most of their time outside (except the youngest who is terrified of gunshots!)

  89. 89.

    PhoenixRising

    October 26, 2009 at 11:04 am

    @ironranger: does the mom pay the daughter $500 a week so daughter won’t live with her?

    Yes. Does anyone involved realize this? Harder question, can’t answer.

    @geg6: He can tell her the truth: He needs the rent her place would bring in once it’s swamped out, so she can pay it or find someplace she likes better for the money. While this may not be wholly credible due to local conditions, he might actually DO it, in contrast to calling the cops on her likely drug use or putting her stuff in lawn and leaf bags. Besides, most users are paranoid so anything that fits into that ‘they’re out to get me’ script will seem more plausible to her than it does to you.

  90. 90.

    Jack

    October 26, 2009 at 11:06 am

    @Parole Officer Burke:

    You keep responding to points I’m not making (I don’t reject the lesser of two evils, just because I point out the “evils” serve the same class). Do you routinely go self-discursive? If so, I’d kindly appreciate a heads up, so as not to waste my time going forth.

    @asiangrrlMN:

    http://rawstory.com/2009/10/sources-senate-health-reform-bill-drop-employer-mandate/

    The requirement is in the template legislation, with a penalty reduction to $100 for the first year.

    Plus, the “co-op” title has been dropped, but not the language (these are not called “exchanges”)”

    http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/patients/articles/?storyId=29299

  91. 91.

    Jack

    October 26, 2009 at 11:07 am

    should read “now called exchanges”

  92. 92.

    Cain

    October 26, 2009 at 11:08 am

    @Ash Can:

    @geg6: Add me to those who think John should change the locks and leave Daughter’s stuff (minus the dog) piled at the curb. And maybe alert the neighborhood cops to the possibility of a domestic disturbance when she finds herself on the outside looking in.

    I suspect John looks upon his daughter as the 8 year old little girl he knew and perhaps didn’t have enough time to spend with. (as, geg6 says, guilty conscience) Eventually, a limit gets reached.

    500 bucks a week? Jeezus.. can I get in on this plan?

    cain

  93. 93.

    Violet

    October 26, 2009 at 11:16 am

    @Cain:

    500 bucks a week? Jeezus.. can I get in on this plan?

    Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. That’s a nice gig if you can get it.

  94. 94.

    geg6

    October 26, 2009 at 11:18 am

    @Cain:

    500 bucks a week? Jeezus.. can I get in on this plan?

    Seriously. And that’s tax free, folks.

    I told John I’d like a monthly salary where I could take home $2000 a month. And the fact that she’s always broke is what convinces me of a drug problem.

  95. 95.

    Violet

    October 26, 2009 at 11:20 am

    @geg6:
    Yeah, she’s definitely got something going on. Drugs sound quite likely. Has she always been like this, or has something changed? Perhaps an undiagnosed mental illness could be involved as well. Certain mental illnesses and drug/alcohol problems can go hand in hand.

  96. 96.

    ironranger

    October 26, 2009 at 11:24 am

    @geg6:
    @PhoenixRising:
    I’ve often thought from observing people I know, that throwing cash at a kid/kids was a sort of bribery so the kid/kids would leave the parent/s alone & quit bothering them. The parent/s don’t seem to be aware on a conscious level that is what they’re doing or can’t admit it to themselves.

  97. 97.

    Betsy

    October 26, 2009 at 11:44 am

    @geg6,
    I’m sorry, that’s a terrible situation. It is really amazing to me the range of maturity levels at a given age. Some 25 year olds have it more together than most 40 year olds, and some seem like they should still be in 8th grade.
    Sending good thoughts to poor Cane.

  98. 98.

    Betsy

    October 26, 2009 at 11:45 am

    Since it’s an open thread:

    Some of my job applications ask for a “statement of teaching philosophy.” Ugh. I suppose “It will turn the paper in on time, or else it gets the hose again” doesn’t count?

  99. 99.

    RedKitten

    October 26, 2009 at 11:56 am

    I’m going to see a Blondie concert this Friday, and have absolutely nothing to wear, nowhere to go shopping, and no money to buy anything. Bah.

  100. 100.

    pcbedamned

    October 26, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    @RedKitten:

    I know the feeling. I am going to Toronto to see Metallica tomorrow night (taking my daughter) and am in the same boat. Can’t quite dress at 40 like I did when I saw them at 16!!! LOL.
    Enjoy your concert and the night away from the little one.
    He is absolutely adorable by the way…

  101. 101.

    Violet

    October 26, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    Went to a concert for the first time in ages this past week. I wore jeans (bought a size too large at TJ Max so my fatness can grow into them – LOL) and a black shirt. I fit right in. Easy and cheap. Although, jeans post-baby might not be your first choice in comfort, Red Kitten. The size-too-large thing, along with the stretch, definitely made them more comfortable than I expected.

  102. 102.

    Robert Waldmann

    October 26, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    ” it would be hard to get 79% of my fellow Massholes to come out in favor of sunshine.” Obviously. What would anyone who likes sunshine be doing in Massachusetts ?

    I used to live in Massachusetts. Now I live in Sunny Italy. I really miss the cloud cover. I don’t miss the Winter cold. I especially don’t miss the annual month of drizzle and always exactly 32 degrees so as to maximize slush and the slipperyness of the surviving ice on sidewalks.

  103. 103.

    trollhattan

    October 26, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    Commieranian is ahead by 1,010. Whappen to BitseyPower(tm)?

  104. 104.

    kay

    October 26, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    @geg6:

    I’m going to completely disagree with all the other posters.
    I’d stay as far away from advising him on his relationship with his grown daughter as humanely possible, without actually running from the room.
    I might run, it’s that important, IMO, but I’m sure you’re more subtle than that, and can come up with a better plan :)

  105. 105.

    Violet

    October 26, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    @trollhattan:

    Don’t know. BitsyPower seems to be a bit diluted today.

    In other Bitsy news, it looks like Oprah is off. From the dog blog, one of the owners received a letter or email:

    Just in, from Harpo –

    “I regret to announce that there has been a format change for Wednesdays live show and we will not be able to feature The Cutest Dog competition as part of the program.

    Because it is a live show, content frequently changes. And sadly, we were afraid that we just wouldn’t be able to give all the finalists and semi finalists the appropriate time and space we would need for a show of this nature.

    Thanks to all of you for submitting such great photos and videos. I am keeping everything on file, incase we are able to feature or profile the semi-finalists at a later date.

    Best wishes to all of you and I wish all of you the best luck with the competition. “

  106. 106.

    RedKitten

    October 26, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    @Violet: Jeans aren’t a problem, as I can get into some of my more forgiving pre-pregnancy ones. (Most of them are still sitting in my closet, sending me accusatory thought messages when I cave in to the bag of Doritos.) I’ll probably just go with jeans, high-heeled black boots, leather jacket, and a t-shirt. My instinct is always to dress up too much, because I live in the fucking sticks (which I’m a little bitter about today), and rarely have the opportunity to wear something besides my jeans and well-worn Chucks, and so sometimes go overboard when we go to the city for any sort of event.

  107. 107.

    valdivia

    October 26, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    @General Winfield Stuck:

    late to this but yes exactly what you said. I am very very suspicious that Reid has the votes, he has not been very good at delivering but he rather go with something and hope it happens. And if it does not? Clusterfuck. Do people know how legislation gets passed? So frustrating.

  108. 108.

    valdivia

    October 26, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    @kay:

    this. Geg6 You can give advice but if you tell him what to do it might complicate your relationship or take it to places you don’t want it to be.

  109. 109.

    WereBear

    October 26, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    @geg6, et al:

    It sounds like both parents are still indulging her out of guilt, but it probably would have gone this badly if they’d stayed together, too, because here she is at 24, living like a two year old. And even a two year old should take pause at hurting their own dog… and I gather she is not stepping up after such a traumatic incident.

    So she’s pretty hopeless and both parents know it.

    They also know that if they throw her out of the nest entirely she will wind up on the street, hooking, and they’d each rather pay money to avoid that outcome.

  110. 110.

    kay

    October 26, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    @valdivia:

    Oh, I’d go even further. No advice. None. Nada. He’ll figure it out.

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