Hating Joe Lieberman a lot isn’t really my thing, but this is ridiculous.
I think that if he gets enough shit from constituents, he’ll back down.
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cleek
i’m shocked that Lieberman would side with the GOP. so shocked.
somebody fetch the smelling salts. i fear i may faint.
ellaesther
That’s ok, DougJ, I’ll hate him for you!
No, it’s not hate — it’s more contempt that I have for him. As a life-long liberal Democrat and a Conservative Movement Jew who advocates for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict — really, “contempt” is about the most positive feeling I can muster for the man. (Indeed, I once expressed my anger on the op/ed pages of his hometown paper, the Hartford Courant, in the hope that he would lose his head and take me on publicly, but alas, he recognized me as the unimportant raging American that I am).
And now you have provided me with another reason to hold him in contempt! Yay!
mightygodking
I think he’s just making noise. Unlike Nelson or Landrieu, Lieberman can get kicked out of the Dem Senate caucus at the drop of a hat- and if he does, he says goodbye to all those committee assignments he values so much. Lieberman, more than anybody else, can be hardballed.
WyldPiratd
What the fuck else would anyone expect from that rotten bastard Joe Lieberman? The SOB doesn’t represent Connecticut in the Senate, he represents the state of Israel and his corporate campaign contributors in that order.
If Lieberman does this and he’s a.)not stripped of his chairmanship, and b.) kicked out of the Democratic caucus. Don’t expect anything of any substance to be accomplished by the Obama administration.
Redshirt
Joementum is on the rise!
dr. bloor
Pretty unlikely that AIPAC is going to put any heat on him for this.
Connecticut is going to be so fucked, I might get to the point of feeling sorry for Jody Rell.
Nah.
Third Eye Open
Its official, he will not be running for another term. There is no way his constituents let him get away with snubbing a HCR bill. Its pretty obvious that he will end up with a lobbying firm after his term is up.
Davis X. Machina
Hence the need for Snowe’s vote, and the WH’s chasing it so hard — it wasn’t part of some double-secret Emmanual-Obama insurance-company sellout — it was Lieberman insurance.
Which was obvious from the get-go. Chalk one up for Ockham’s razor.
J.W. Hamner
The problem with Lieberman is, that while conservative Dems like Ben Nelson want health care reform to pass while voting against it for political cover… Lieberman is in full F-U mode, and just wants to screw Obama and Progressives.
Jamey
Uh, insurance companies headquartered in Hartford, for eleventy-billion, Alex?
Lieberman’s a first-class c#nt and I hope he gets eye-herpes, but he’s not being cuntish [in this case] just to make hippies cry.
Biden (whom I actually like) threw his support in many unseemly ways behind the post-box banks of Delaware during the bankruptcy bill debates and voting. But he never threatened filibuster; he was with the majority at the time.
Just sayin’, that’s all.
Svensker
@mightygodking:
Yes, but by whom? Obama and Reid seemed to think they could ignore his assholic warmonger side because he was “great on everything else”.
And now here’s “everything else” and he’s not so great. Well, he IS a great asshole. There’s that.
cleek
look at the “current news” items on Lieberman’s web page; watch him praise the pork he’s bringing to CT.
and look at The resources he is fighting to secure for CT.
some budget hawk.
SenyorDave
In a place of unprincipled players, Lieberman stands out. When I saw this piece of shit (I’m running out of expletives for this turd) pushing Palin during the election all I could think was CT voters should be salivating to vote him out of office. They should picket his goddamn home and make his life generally miserable. Hopefully, they can put enough pressure on him and he’ll crack.
God knows that using the “do the right thing” tack certainly won’t work.
By the way, has anyone ever seen Lieberman and the man who played the father on “Alf” at the same place at the same time?
Simonee
Can’t say I’m surprised, but it’s still disgusting nonetheless. He does not have his constituents in mind, that’s for damn sure.
kay
@mightygodking:
I agree. He really, really likes being on television, and no one is all that interested in the latest war he’s selling.
Shell
So Obama is ‘dragging his fee’ over Afghanistan but moving too fast on health care?
alien radio
@Third Eye Open:
Agreed, He’s in burning bridges mode, but It’s going to be a hard few years till the end of term when he can’t deliver pork or committee votes.
bago
Gah! That was a politico link. In the words of Wonkette: [“Penis”]
SenyorDave
If he does support a filibuster hopefully they’ll start a recall petition.
robertdsc
Here’s where the President’s personal ability to motivate people comes into play. He knew full well that Lieberman would pull a stunt like this, but when the Dems were organizing the caucus during the transition, Obama said he didn’t have a problem with keeping Lieberman on board in the caucus. Of course, this was after Lieberman’s awful backstabbing of Obama during the election.
Now you gotta pay, Mr. President. I hope the price isn’t too high.
Shell
dragging his feet.
Polish the Guillotines
Reid needs to fucking punt this clown. Like yesterday.
matt
I don’t really get Lieberman. His whole deal was that he was going to be nuts regarding foreign policy, but that dems should cut him some slack since he was still going to be a reliable democrat on domestic issues.
I really don’t understand what happened to the guy.
bobbo
Asshole of the first order. His “reasons” for opposing the public option are pure bullshit. Doesn’t he realize that he is fooling no one? Is there anyone who doesn’t know what an asshole he is?
beltane
We just got notice of a 12% increase in our health insurance premiums along with the usual decrease in benefits. Joe Lieberman can officially go f**k himself with a utility pole.
Davis X. Machina
Senators can’t be recalled — no provision for it in the Constitution, and it’s a federal office, so CT statutes are irrelevant.
Garrigus Carraig
@Third Eye Open: Wait. Isn’t he already working for a lobbying firm?
Napoleon
@SenyorDave:
You can not recall a senator.
Cain
@Davis X. Machina:
That’s too bad. Joe Lieberman is the one man standing against single option healthcare, huh? What kind of shit can we bring upon him that will make his life a living hell? *sigh* and by shit I mean picketing his home and his work. If he wants to bring down the storm we might as well oblige him.
Either that, he’s looking for some hand outs from someone, the two faced baboon. He’s a goddam macaca that’s what! That’s right, you heard me, MACACA.
cain
cleek
he trumpets $783,247,180 worth of pork, for 2010 alone, on his webpage, and calls himself a fiscal hawk.
Darius
Yes, and as a result, the Dems can now hold Lieberman’s chairmanship and seniority over his head in order to secure his vote for health-care reform.
Skippy
So offering affordable and fair health insurance to the American people is bad news for the taxpayer and the national debt, but fighting two wars (one illegal) and bailing out the greedy bastards of Wall St isn’t.
Can we shitcan this jackass from the Dem caucus yet?
GReynoldsCT00
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You made a funny
SenyorDave
Senators can’t be recalled—no provision for it in the Constitution, and it’s a federal office, so CT statutes are irrelevant.
That’s depressing. How about they tar and feather him, then ride him out of town on a rail?
beltane,
I do like your solution!
Joe Lieberman can officially go f**k himself with a utility pole.
Scuffletuffle
Can we add “Lieberhosin’ ” as a tag?
valdivia
this is where the Reid does not have the votes worry from me yesterday makes a come back. Yesterday he swore he had it all lined up, today all the idiots (count Bayh in here) are making stupid noises. And we will go back to freak out galore everywhere and accusation of Obama’s failure (I already see one here). Ugh. I am going to ignore all of this til Thanksgiving. Maybe by then the freaking out will be over and this bill will be where it needs to be.
Ash Can
This:
And this:
I think Third Eye Open and Jamey nail it. I do hope it earns him a little phone call from the WH, though. Maybe from Rahm Emanuel. At 2 AM.
Shell
Hopefully he’ll be standing against the single option the same way Michael Steele was standing on the train tracks.
Michael Carpet
If he votes against ending the filibuster, strip him of everything and give him an office in a port-a-potty outside Union Station, with a staff of one. Let the Republic Party give him a better deal.
Skippy
His Democratic constituents dumped his ass in the last primary, and he ran and won as an Independent anyway. I don’t think he gives a shit what they think.
LD50
@Ash Can:
Yes, I’d like to see Rahm work on Joe’s kidneys for an hour or so.
Michael D.
@cleek: Just did a rough calculation, and it’s just under $800,000,000 worth of pork.
EDIT: Just noticed you already calculated it out to the dollar!
SenyorDave
What is surprising is that it seems a public-option opt out is a big win politically for the Democrats. Let a hard red state like Mississippi or South Carolina where people have really shitty health care opt out, and just watch the fallout. They’d never elect a Democrat, but I think there would be hell to pay for a state legislature/governor to go to the mat to opt out.
I hope Reid is using some of this type of argument on the Blue Dogs.
GReynoldsCT00
@Skippy:
Joe only cares about himself, and getting himself on teevee, Maybe invitations for the Sunday talk shows have been a little slow lately. Ratfucker.
Makewi
Maybe Liberman is still pissed about the way you guys tried to stick the shiv in last election, or maybe he is correct that this is the worst time ever to try such a broad reaching restructuring of one of America’s more massive economic cogs?
cmorenc
@Senyor Dave:
Unfortunately, there is no constitutional way for the voters of ANY state to force a “recall” election of a US Senator during his term of office, once duly elected. Sen. Lieberman’s was elected to his current term of office in 2006, so from a Conn. voter perspective, they’re stuck with him until 2012 (actully, through the short early Jan lame-duck session in 2013). Further, the US Senate has already passed on their power to judge Lieberman’s “fitness for office” (meaning statutory criminal activity, really), and while colloquially speaking Lieberman’s actions for quite awhile have been “criminal” misrepresentation of his Conn. constituents and the nation, they fall well short of meeting any actual formal requirements for criminal conduct. Unless, that is, someone can dig up more dirt than simply the everyday perfectly legal sorts of political corruption that passes for normalcy in Washington, such as being owned lock stock and barrel by Israel and the Hartford insurance industry.
Will Reid and the dems have the stones to kick Lieberman out of the dem caucus? I hope so.
cleek
lock him in a room with a bunch of hungry keas.
Peter J
I don’t think he’ll care about them, especially not if he’s not running for reelection.
I’m worried it’s all about Israel. Lieberman will vote for cloture if Obama changes his policy on the conflict.
LD50
@Makewi: Hey, Makewee, you aren’t supposed to start your afternoon self-abasement session for 3-4 hours yet. Get your whiny embittered ass out of here and come back at 6pm EST.
Sly
From someone who gloats openly about the funds he’s pulling in because of seniority, half of me takes Lieberman’s stance seriously and half of me doesn’t.
On the one hand, 80-90% of the entire caucus will be gunning for his head if he joins a filibuster. There’s no way his seniority would survive. This is why conservative democrats need as much political cover vis-a-vis the public option as possible, and “Will you join a Republican filibuster if the final HCR Bill contains a Public Option” is the one question they don’t want asked of them. If they say yes, the caucus will eat them alive (as will a primary opponent). If they say no, they lose any influence they have in the debate.
On the other hand, I believe he would join a filibuster if his petty demands on behalf of his political paymasters aren’t met. He’s probably still upset about the whole Laser Plane issue. He’s a two-faced snake who likely won’t run for re-election in 2012, opting instead for a lucrative position in some asshole think tank.
Either way, the caucus leadership standing up for him in 2006 and 2008 was a massive mistake. Liberman thought their moronic adherence to the Senate’s Boy’s Club Rules would keep him safe, and he was right.
Makewi
@LD50:
I think it’s very sweet how much you keep trying to talk to me, but I would have thought it was apparent that I think you are kind of a dick. Hope springs eternal I guess, and here I am granting you what you want. My bad.
Michael D.
@Makewi:
Let me ask you: When would be a good time for you?
Republican 1: Can’t you see it’s raining outside!? Now is not the time to restructure the healthcare system!!
Republican 2: I have a really hurty splinter!? Now is not the time to restructure the healthcare system!!
Republican 3: People are getting gay married!? Now is not the time to restructure the healthcare system!!
Etc.
slag
Lieberman’s constituents need to put him in his place pronto. As in yesterday. Time to raise Connecticut.
GReynoldsCT00
@Makewi:
You a resident of CT?
Luthe
As a CT resident, I can tell you any e-mail I send to Lieberdick will just bounce off his inch-thick Armor of Douchenozzle ™ and land in the “FU” pile. From the second he lost to Lamont and declared he was running as an independent, it was clear that he represented no one but himself and could give a shit about the people of CT. He could care less what his Dem constituents think, because it was the GOP that elected him. All the Dems voted Lamont.
…which is not to say I am not tempted to send him a strongly-worded letter. One that starts “Dear Asswipe…”
trollhattan
Who the heck is “you guys”? How many Connecticuttininans are there here at BJ, anyhoo?
It is clear: we should defeat health care reform and bomb Iran with the money we’ll save. What could be simpler?
LD50
@Makewi: Does this mean you won’t talk about fisting more today? Your scat fixation is one of the main reasons we read your posts.
Michael D.
@Luthe:
As a CT resident, you OWE it to everyone who wants this to pass to write YOUR senator a letter.
GReynoldsCT00
Nutmeggers! and it seems quite a few :)
Makewi
@Michael D.:
Perhaps you are unaware of the currently dire financial situation we face? Even so, it would still be a good move to increase the medicaid rolls to include those that cannot afford health care, perhaps even make small moves towards a national catastrophic coverage plan. As far as I am aware, this has nothing to do with rain, or gay marriage, but thanks for showing your ability to really think about an issue.
Makewi
@GReynoldsCT00:
Is this where you tell me that if I’m not, I have no right to opine? Essentially another call to STFU? Very curious, if so, given how dissenting was such an important American tradition not that long ago.
Fulcanelli
@Michael Carpet:
Agreed.
That fucker reminds me visually of a ventriloquist’s dummy, with AIPAC’s hand up the back of his jacket. He’s the ultimate, backstabbing, political über-whore.
LD50
@Makewi:
Wow, Scarlett didn’t wait long before slamming into ‘whiny martyr’ mode.
cleek
@LD50:
“…we read your posts.”
not all of “we”.
Just Some Fuckhead
Lieberman is with us on everything except the war, DFHers.
GReynoldsCT00
@LD50:
yeah and about how “we” stuck a shiv in Lieberman. I think voting people out is an important American tradition too
jibeaux
@Michael D.:
Republican Senator 1: My taxpayer-funded health insurance seems just fine and the premiums are nice and low. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!
Stooleo
Fuck! I hate me some Lieberman. He needs to be stripped of all his committee chairs.
mai naem
Lieberhole’s thought process towards anything is as following:
1/ How can I get it to benefit me and me only?
2/ How can I get it to benefit my reelection office?
3/ How can I get it to benefit my job search after losing the
election?
4/ How can I get it to benefit Hadassah?
5/ How can I get it to benefit my kids?
6/ How can I get it to screw the Dems?
7/ How can I get it to benefit my Neocon buddies?
8/ How can I get it to benefit my BFF John McCain?
9/ How can I get it to benefit my BFF Lindsay Graham?
10/ How can I get it to benefit my johns?
11/ How can I get it to screw the horrible liberal base of the D Democrat party? Ned Lamont?Chris Dodd?Lowell Weicker?
12/ Finally, how can I get it benefit my consituents?
cleek
@Stooleo:
and then tied to one and beaten with the rest.
or not. for i am a pacifist.
gogol's wife
@Michael D.:
I just wrote my 1,000,000th angry email to Senator Lieberman, but Luthe is correct about how much good it will do. We used to have a really good senator, (Republican) Lowell Weicker. It’s been a nightmare ever since Lieberman defeated him. A nightmare.
jibeaux
I am still waiting on Makewi to mercilessly mock me for volunteering at my son’s school as s/he/it promised to do, and until then I am just not able to take s/he/it seriously. There is just no follow through. I mean, the volunteering is continuing completely unabated and unmocked. Tomorrow I am bringing sweet potato soup AND helping with math. In February I am heading up a tea and cookie soiree for the teachers. (Note: probably no one else is doing this, but now is NOT the time to google “tea party” for assistance planning an actual tea party for elementary school teachers. I do not intend for the theme of the afternoon to be “hang the president in effigy”, thank you very much. I have found that googling “high tea” works, as well as restricting yourself to the Martha Stewart or Real Simple websites.)
C’mon. Start the merciless mocking. I just HANDED you Martha Stewart.
Minionero
Perhaps you are unaware that the Reid bill is projected to substantially lower the deficit and reduce health care costs?
Perhaps you are unaware that skyrocketing health care costs are making it impossible for American businesses to compete?
Tim F.
Nobody could have predicted that Joe Lieberman would jump at a chance to be the most important person in the room.
Sentient Puddle
This from Wikipedia without a citation (been trying to find another source, but coming up empty), so take with a grain of salt…
After he won in 2006, Lieberman cut a deal with Democratic leadership that allowed him to retain his seniority, and thus chairmanships. He is free to vote however he wanted on policy, but when it comes to procedural votes, he has to vote Democratic unless he gets special permission from the whip.
Ergo, he’s blowing smoke up our asses. That or he really is prepared to lose his seniority over this. Which would be incredibly stupid of him, but seeing as this is Lieberman, it is quite plausible.
slag
@Luthe: Yeah. Well. Life’s tough. Do it anyway. And get everyone you know to do it.
Svensker
@Makewi:
The shiv just barely missed the artery, unfortunately.
kay
Lieberman came out today (with Susan Collins) to scold Obama on not getting H1N1 vaccine out fast enough.
Lieberman and Susan Collins teamed up last to hold phony hearings on Katrina, where they absolved President Bush of all responsibility.
Anyway, they both like to pretend they’re experts on pandemics.
The vaccine is cultured in eggs, and the period to culture the vaccine took longer than the CDC predicted.
The CDC response to Leiberman and Collins and other faux-experts was “yelling at the eggs isn’t going to make it go any faster”.
Just great.
Fulcanelli
@Makewi: I seriously hope you aren’t suggesting that President Obama and our Democrat led congress “dithers” on addressing such a serious issue for the American people.
Your mean old Uncle DICK does not approve of dithering, you know.
Thousands of Americans dying each year due to no health insurance = OK to dither.
Sending American troops to die in a worthless, God forsaken backwater like Afghanistan = NOT OK to dither.
And you wonder why we mock you.
Razor Eddie
I’m a CT resident.
I just dropped an e-mail at Holy Joe’s website.
Not that it will do much good, but we gotta try.
Makewi
@jibeaux:
Volunteering at your child’s school is a laudable thing, I will not mock you for that. I have no problem with Martha Stewart.
Brick Oven Bill
Who is smarter?
“I will not be rushed into risking more American lives.”-Barack Obama, Commander in Chief
“Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays.”
-Sun Tzu
The President should not be letting health-care power-grab politics affect his most important job. He makes time to lobby for the Olympics (loser), and have salsa dances.
The request was made in August.
The people who matter are beginning to watch this guy.
cleek
@Sentient Puddle:
and there’s no way he would dare test the iron will of Harry “The Punisher” Reid.
Michael D.
Even though you might think letters and phone calls are a waste of time, you still need to do it.
Here is why.
Seanly
Why was this jerk ever the vice presidential candidate of the Democratic Party? Droopy Dog can DIAWF (die in a wankfest).
jibeaux
@Makewi:
But I started it during the week of 9/11 and I was PROMISED merciless mocking. It’s been a real let down, let me tell you. I was never here for Darryl, but I bet he wouldn’t pull the ol’ switcheroo on me that way.
cervantes
Hating Joe Lieberman a lot is totally my thing. Can’t imagine why it isn’t yours.
Svensker
@Makewi:
Not-so-shorter Makewi channeling Lieberman: “I’m p.o.’d at how some Dems treated me, so I’m going to fuck over the American people.” Hey wait, that’s actually pretty much Joltin’ Joe’s M.O. innit?
Redshirt
Oh hey yeah, how’s Joe’s research into all of Obama’s despicable Czars going?
jibeaux
@cleek:
Smile.
Trying to start up a new internet tradition. It’s not great, I know. Suggestions accepted.
JenJen
If the stories about the WH doubting Reid’s vote-counting abilities are true, I imagine this is part of what they’re talking about.
I’m behind Reid’s position though, and dammit, as Sen. Sherrod Brown said yesterday, more of Reid’s Senators want this than don’t want it. Good for all of them, and I hope they hold steady and don’t let us down. Fingers crossed, obvs.
Zuzu's Petals
@GReynoldsCT00:
On to dicks, it seems.
Cue eastriver.
danimal
@Fulcanelli:
@Michael Carpet:
Agreed, and agreed some more. It can’t be said enough. He’s negotiating, probably for something entirely unrelated to health care. He needs to understand exactly what will happen if he follows through with his threat.
Makewi
@Minionero:
I think it’s very cute how you think instituting a new government program will reduce costs. Is there some sort of pill that you can take that allows you to believe such a thing?
@Fulcanelli:
I think it would be interesting to be inside your head while you are playing both parts of the conversation. Scary and sad, but also interesting.
Zuzu's Petals
Oops, my last was to LD50.
Kryptik
Sweet, naive Doug.
Still clinging to hope that Lieberman actually cares about Connecticut.
The clearest thing that has come from this is that most of the ardent and obstructionist figures out of the whole reform mess have come from states that actually support the public option by reasonable amounts. Opposition to it never came from principled understanding of what constituents want or worry about the price tag.
It’s all about a big ‘fuck you, what’s in it for me?’.
Skippy
@Makewi:
You’re right. We should have welcomed poor victimized Joe back with open arms and a wet sloppy kiss after he endorsed the OPPOSITION’S CANDIDATE.
BFR
@Tim
He just wants to be bought off on this, like Lincoln, Landrieu and Nelson. Only difference is that he also thinks it’s useful to make a public spectacle on top of it.
kay
@cleek:
I think he jumped the gun a little. Reid came out yesterday and said he had the votes. This is bound to piss off all Democrats. The majority support the public option.
Conservatives have no self control. None. They’re like 5 year olds. Choosing not to speak is akin to “censorship”. They cannot shut up, even for a prudent and polite and respectful three days.
An idea enters their head, and is expressed, no matter the consequences.
I blame their parents, personally.
Makewi
@jibeaux:
No you weren’t. Not everything that is stated is a promise. I’d have thought you would have learned that before you had your own kids.
GReynoldsCT00
@Zuzu’s Petals:
Was kinda scratching my head on that one… :)
Ash Can
@Makewi: Just out of curiosity, what kind of a reception did you get from all the right-wingers a year or three ago when you’d post on their blogs bitching about Bush’s TARP bailouts and the lack of regulation that made them necessary, about the profligate spending on the Iraqi occupation, and about the Medicare Part D giveaway? I bet they loved hearing about all that from you, didn’t they?
MikeJ
Not voting for somebody is the same as stabbing them with a knife?
Skippy
@BFR:
Reid and Obama’s forbearance has come back to bite them on the ass. Lieberman now thinks he can do what the hell he likes without facing any consequences. Same thing happens when you don’t discipline a kid for misbehavior.
Time to show Schmoe Lieberman that he’s got even less political capital to spend than Bush and kick his ass out.
Makewi
@Skippy:
Try to keep up, I’m only suggesting a couple of possible motivations for this move. I think the more likely scenario is the one he stated. Screwing those who tried to screw him is just a bonus.
les
Why today, when the toads are out in force, is greasemonkey failing me???
BFR
@Skippy
Course that would mean the end of HCR. I think the reasonable thing to do is find out what Joe wants blown up in the Middle East and then decide if it’s worth the tradeoff.
Makewi
@Ash Can:
Seriously, again with the shut up because you didn’t…? I would have thought that you would recognize the childishness of this sort of argument.
cleek
@les:
it’s working for me!
pie pie pie… as far as the eye can see!
Svensker
Knowing Joe, he’s probably trying to bargain his OK on the health care bill with an OK on Israel bombing Iran.
Bounce his skinny little whiny ass, already.
Ash Can
@Svensker: Hell, that’s the motto of the entire Republican Party.
GReynoldsCT00
@cleek:
Whine! I can’t get it to work, I’d much rather have pie than get indigestion
Chuck Butcher
There is no reason for me to write to Lieberman, my OR return address would simply make me suspect from the outset and meaningless in the end. None of my political work of useful advice is of meaning outside of OR politics or a segment of the Obama campaign, so whatever reputation I have is useless.
What I can do is mercilessly mock that useless prick. Yes, this is Joe’s opportunity to upstage Olympia as the most important person in the room. It is important to remember that as an (I) he has no seniority to speak of without the (D) permission and thus would lose not only Chair, but any seat and become essentially meaningless unless the ( R ) were to take him up. It wouldn’t take him long to really piss them off. As a deficit hawk he is as silly a proposition as the previous Republican Congresses.
Skippy
@Makewi:
Anyone who believes a politician’s motives are exactly what he says they are is either extremely naive or a damn fool.
Considering Lieberman sponsored the bill authorizing the Iraq war, which has exploded the national debt far more than healthcare reform ever could, I find his sudden concern for the deficit disingenuous, to say the very least.
Tax Analyst
Makewi said:
“Maybe Liberman is still pissed about the way you guys tried to stick the shiv in last election, or maybe he is correct that this is the worst time ever to try such a broad reaching restructuring of one of America’s more massive economic cogs?”
Or maybe Joe Lieberman is just a worthless sack of lying shit?
And maybe your opinion that “this is the worst time ever to try such a broad restructuringn of one of America’s more massive economic cogs” is a load of crap. Maybe you mean that introducing massive change is difficult? Certainly. It would be difficult at any time under any circumstance. The alternative, however, is to retain an untenable status quo designed to serve profits rather than patients.
Napoleon
@JenJen:
As long as Reid has the votes to change the bill once it hits the floor it doesn’t really matter how many people are for what he introduces.
With that in mind, if he is one or 2 votes short on the public option whats the harm in putting the bill out there with it in so long as he is confident he has the votes to cut it out if need be.
Also lets say that the above is true and Reid knew Lieberman is the problem, don’t you think in a sneaky way, even if Reid thinks in fact he will never get Lieberman’s vote to force Lieberman to make a very politically unpopular stand? Short of drugging Lieberman and posing him in bed with a goat and taking pictures I can think of few other ways to “hang” Lieberman then to give him the rope to do it to himself on this issue.
Of course all of the above assumes Reid is that smart and tricky.
Demo Woman
Joe is not going to block the debate for the health care bill. That’s the first step to passage of the bill. I do have a question why can’t they add the option during reconciliation? After that point they only need 50 votes.
Zuzu's Petals
Why Ezra Klein doesn’t take Lieberman’s threat seriously:
Makewi
@Skippy:
Unless it’s Obama or Reid or Pelosi you mean. Then you can take that shit to the bank!
Michael D.
@cleek: I am going to have to grovel and ask for the greasemonkey app. with all due apologies for a year or so ago.
Skippy
@BFR: If we offered to blow up something in the Middle East, we definitely wouldn’t need Lieberman as that’d get the entire GOP on board.
Napoleon
Why does anyone feed the troll?
Sloegin
Simple enough, let Joe know that whatever post-Senate gig he’s angling to get his comfy sinecure on in will be blackballed. That should be hardball enough to make Joe squeak.
Zuzu's Petals
@Skippy:
I dunno. If they had bounced him back when, don’t you think he’d be a definite “no” on everything they’ve tried since?
tomvox1
Get ready for the FDL crowd to claim that Lieberman’s secretly doing Obama’s bidding (not Aetna’s, mind you) in attempting to scuttle the public option. In three, two, one…
Demo Woman
@Zuzu’s Petals: You missed Ezra’s last sentence
Ezra is being a tad naive. Joe left that guy behind.
Makewi
Yeah, that 2.2% average profit margin the health insurance companies are banking is some evil shit. Or do you mean the greedy doctors who think they should earn so much. Or perhaps its the pharmaceutical companies?
In any case, as long as you have identified a villain and stocked up on your pitchforks and torches you can avoid having to deal with any sort of reality, which is nice.
Ambergris
Is Joe Lieberman aiming for re-election? If not, there’s nothing the Democrats can do. They have to use reconciliation, because there are democratic senators who won’t vote for a bill with a public option and there is Joe Lieberman who wouldn’t vote for a bill with one.
If yes, Joe probably wants the support of the DNC, he’s gonna need it against Connecticut AG Richard Blumenthal – in fact, Blumenthal will win if he runs, so the DNC must keep him from running. However, Lieberman might also try to run as a republican, but he might get primaried there, too (by Jodi Rell for example, or by one of those guys running against Dodd right now).
Chuck Butcher
@Makewi:
…pracitically every member of the Republican Caucus. What a complete tool, if one of you buttheads is writing this as a spoof you need to do a much better job. There is the aspect of making mockery easy…
Zach
I haven’t seen a single public option section of any bill that can be called an entitlement. Generally, the option’s funded up front w/ a few billion dollars that’s paid back over 10 years or so. After that, it’s funded by premiums and subsidies just like private insurers.
eduardo
This is what Obama gets in return for backing Lieberputz over Ned Lamont in the CT Democratic primary.
Ash Can
@Makewi: Then stop complaining about health care reform on the basis of cost. You don’t care about government expenditure, you care about policies you don’t agree with, being enacted by people you didn’t vote for. Period.
In other words, your concerns are partisan political, not fiscal. When you claim otherwise, you’re lying.
This is why we bitch at you. Because you’re not an honest person.
General Winfield Stuck
No surprise at all, as expected for him to extract a price for his vote, probly a committee chair for life, though It is a little worrisome that he seemed to close all doors on a PO, but Joementum likes his political drama in high dudgeon, specially when he’s the leading man.
If he does follow thru with joining the wingers in a filibuster, it will piss off the dem caucus to critical mass, and I think will make it certain for a reconciliation process bill. And if that happens, we will likely see a much more robust PO that’ll make the wingnuts crazier than the little bed bugs than they currently are.
Prolly give Scarlett the vapid vapors.
Makewi
@Chuck Butcher:
Yeah, because I’m super busy singing the praises of the GOP in this discussion. Reality to hard for you pal?
cleek
@Michael D.:
here ya go !
drillfork
And now Snowe has come out saying she’ll side with the Republicans. Since for some reason this can’t survive with a mere 59 votes in the Senate, let the unraveling begin…
Makewi
@Ash Can:
That makes no sense whatsovever. You’ve built quite a strawman there though, so be careful with open flames.
Ash Can
@Makewi: Oh, and as for this:
“Is there some sort of pill that you can take that allows you to believe such a thing?”
Don’t ask us, ask the Congressional Budget Office.
licensed to kill time
Partisan political points or piss poor palaver? You decide. Makewi extremely tiresome, let it eat pie!
Will
Where is the polling in Connecticut on a public option? Where is the polling in CT on whether the residents want to opt out of a public option or not? Is there not a way to corner and shame this man with polls that likely show 70-80% of his constituents want the public option, and want him to support it or at least get out of the way?
john b
why don’t the democrats force an actual filibuster again?
Demo Woman
@Napoleon: This troll is funny.
Robin G.
Okay, can someone please, please explain to me *why* we can’t make them actually filibuster? Is there some sort of obscure procedural problem here? Or is it simply backscratching?
Chad N Freude
It pains me to engage you in an actual substantive discussion, but but you’re not really giving me anything to snark about.
It’s not clear to me whether you are arguing that we have so much money committed to two foreign wars and an attempt to preserve the financial system that we can’t afford to spend even more on HCR, or the health insurance industry is Too Big To Mess With Lest It Fail in some way that worsens the country’s debt. If the first, I think we should trade one or both wars for restructuring the insurance industry. If the latter, I think the risk of restructuring the insurance industry is far outweighed by the need to restructure how health care is managed and paid for, and this is the moment when it may be politically doable.
Martin
Holy Joe is the man that was almost VP. The spotlight needs him, and this is his moment. After the next two months of non-stop Sunday shows with his friend John McCain, he’ll be all on board.
handy
@Martin:
The spotlight needs Joementum like helicopters need laughs.
hypusine
That sniveling, self-important ass ran from the VP nom back to “his” seat in CT, barely eked out political survival in 2006 by not being a Democrat anymore, supported fucking John McCain in 2008 and now the spoiled poo-flinger demands attention during a crucial…nevermind.
The only thing worse than him knowing the most strategic moments to jump out of the phone booth as El Prickamente Estupendo, or the fact that he can’t differentiate between good attention and any attention, is that there’s no way to get him out of the goddamned Senate except to wait.
And now I have ranted.
Skippy
@drillfork: If the GOP does end up forcing a filibuster, I want Harry Reid for once to grow a fucking pair and force them to do a real filibuster, of the kind that’ll leave them needing Depends and a billion cups of coffee.
Lisa
Yeah fuck the attention whoring troll.
Minus the troll-twat, this is a good thread, as usual.
kay
@Demo Woman:
I think “that guy” was something of a myth.
Ezra Klein can point me to a single issue or piece of legislation where Joe Leiberman has ever backed policy or law that threatened any portion of profit from any large business entity.
I can’t find one. He stands like a beacon…protecting corporate profit.
General Winfield Stuck
@Will:
I doubt Joe cares much about the CT voters. It took him about 6 seconds to swivel back to supporting escalation in Iraq after giving lip service to scaling back during his campaign.
Joe’s probably not going to run again as he’s now burnt to many bridges to get enough dem votes to win reelection, and this is his big chance to be famous, and he just might take it, but he can turn on a dime, so we’ll see.
Makewi
@Ash Can:
You do know what cost means, right?
Skippy
@Robin G.: Because Harry Reid is a spineless, ball-less, gutless sorry excuse for a Majority Leader who makes Tom Daschle look like LBJ in his arm-twisting pomp.
MikeJ
You can, but it’s harder on the people who want to break it than on the people conducting it.
cleek
nobody has had to do an actual filibuster for decades, unless the Majority Leader says so. blame Senate Rule #22.
licensed to kill time
This made me smile in regard to health care today:
Billionaires for Wealthcare Sing! with video and lyrics, so we can try this too.
Chad N Freude
I have to go and will be unable to defend myself against epithets for a while. Later.
Zuzu's Petals
@Demo Woman:
Yeah, I just thought it would be confusing not to include the actual video.
He may have left that guy behind, but don’t forget this is what he was saying when he ran as an independent. And Klein says he traditionally hasn’t been conservative on health care issues.
I dunno, really. I guess we’ll find out soon enough.
jibeaux
@Makewi:
Oh, I’m aware that there are people who will state that they will do something, and then they never do it, and then possibly even deny that they ever said it. I’m just disappointed, that’s all.
Canada has a program in which the government sets the maximum amount a drug manufacturer can charge for drugs in Canada. Big Pharma continues to sell their drugs in Canada, presumably because it is still profitable for them to do so. You may have noticed that uninsured Americans frequently purchase medications from Canada. This is because they can buy them that way for less money, even with the cost of shipping! Isn’t that AMAZING?!? Do you know what that is? OMG, it’s a government program that lowers health care costs and saves people money! When I go home today, I will drive on roads that were built by the government because we’ve figured out it saves money over building private roads and having a toll booth at every freakin’ intersection! OMG it’s a government program based on the principles of shared costs, efficiency, and economies of scale which saves people money.
Makewi
@Chad N Freude:
It isn’t my argument, it’s the one Joe is making. That said, we are in the middle of dire financial straights which may not be the best time to saddle the American people with more spending. It’s not a ridiculous argument, although I think the idea of “trading” the spending for 2 wars on the spending for HCR is a ridiculous argument. I also disagree that this is the perfect time for HCR, as it is clear that even with complete ownership of the federal government the Democrats can’t manage to get it done.
I’ve suggested repeatedly here for small measurable incremental change that will bring about the same desired results.
Skippy
@cleek: Yep. And since the Dems are cursed with an exceptionally weak non-leader in Reid, the GOP hasn’t needed to actually filibuster because Reid folds everytime.
Just Some Fuckhead
Sick for Proft informs me that Aetna of Connecticut is one of LieLieMan’s top 10 campaign contributors. So he may actually be operating on principle here.
JenJen
@Napoleon:
Exactly. And that’s where you lost me. ;-)
Ash Can
@licensed to kill time: Heh heh! Assuming Makewi isn’t one of the front-pagers trying to get us all worked up just for lulz, it’s obviously purely partisan. In other words, Makewi’s blathering all boils down to this: “The Democrats are enacting their agenda! Make them stop!”
Zuzu's Petals
@cleek:
Ah, thanks for posting that. I am most definitely ready for some deelicious pie.
Martin
You do know what deficit neutral means, right?
The cost is the outlay of the plan without the revenues. The markup from the Baucus bill shows that it was expected to bring in about $300B in taxes against boutique plans and penalties. It’s also expected to bring in about $700B in savings to Medicare, Medicare Advantage, and payments from policy buyers. In other words, the government will come out ~$100B ahead over 10 years.
The Reid bill is expected to mark up better with more savings to the taxpayer.
General Winfield Stuck
@Robin G.:
One thing is that the way the rules are written, the majority party has to keep most of it’s members in the chamber, or nearby while the minority, or filibustering party just needs to keep a couple members present.
But the real reason they don’t force a real talking filibuster is that if you make the minority mad enough, there are about eleventy hundred ways they can bring the Senate to a grinding halt by procedural monkey wrenches. Or blowing up the Senate.
This is why they adopted the Cloture rules a hundred or so years ago in the first place, and why majorities are loathe to play it all the way out to force a simple majority vote. When they have done it in the recent past, it’s usually just to make a point, but not to actually force a simple majority vote.
Paul L.
Wow amazing how progressives dropped the 60 Votes in the Senate/ Supermajority talking point.
BTW, you guys have short memories I remember that the Democrats and progressives actively campaigned against him,
The Democrats were lucky He didn’t do a Specter.
jibeaux
@Robin G.:
Ezra did this pretty well, once, and I can’t find it. For one reason, it’s apparently a lot harder on the majority party than the minority. They all have to be there, all the time, etc. And he went on to say something like, “but still, seems to me that sometimes you just have to call their bluff.” If anyone finds it, please post.
licensed to kill time
We have Makewee pie, Paul L pie, Bong Water Bill pie, all kindsa pie!
Max
Reading the Dickheadberman article over at Poltico, I noticed this doosy.
What if George W Bush had done that?
The first point of the article mentions that Obama only did a four-hour stop in New Orleans and how if W had done that, there’d be outrage.
Apparently, Politico doesn’t understand the difference between making a quick trip and letting the whole fucking city drown and 1500 citizens die.
Gotta love the false equivalency.
Comrade Jake
I can’t manage to wade through 166 comments, and I’m sorry, but this is simply a matter of Lieberdude playing his usual “LOOK AT ME!” routine. We were bound to get this. He’ll use this as bargaining power for something he wants, and then when he gets it, he’ll claim his mind has been changed.
This is incredibly predictable, and yet we are certain to have the left-wing blogosphere in hysterics over this for at least a couple of weeks.
Don’t get me wrong, I can’t stand the little fucker, but he’s not going to single-handedly take this bill down. He doesn’t have the guts to do that. The guy is the biggest cheese-dick walking the planet.
geg6
@Ash Can:
I said long ago and I’ll say it again. This particular troll is a liar. Liar. Liar. Liar. Liar. Constantly lying. Never quits lying. A lying fucking piece of shit, if I may paraphrase soonergrunt.
Skippy
@Paul L.: Yeah, now he’s threatening to filibuster the most important piece of legislation in decades, I’m sure glad Lieberman didn’t pull a Specter. //
If he’d defected to the GOP then, at least we’d have known where he stood, and not had to deal with this constant will-he-won’t-he bullshit.
Demo Woman
@kay: Kay, My first instinct was to say he left that guy in Mississippi but thought better of it. I do think that K Street owns him.
Demo Woman
@licensed to kill time: Don’t forget the pie that caused Gass…
chrome agnomen
there is no dying too painful or prolonged for lieberman.
Comrade Jake
BTW, let me also point out in case it’s not incredibly obvious yet: Lieberman might be the first Dem to signal this kind of bullshit, but he definitely won’t be the last.
geg6
@john b:
Word. I hope like hell they do. That’s what America really wants to see. A buncha WATBs reading the phone book on the Senate floor as 2/3s of the bankruptcies are attributable to medical bills and 45,000 more Americans die due to lack of health care. Yup. GOP in 2010!
DBrown
@Makewi: Really? We can’t afford health care for the truly needy? You are really lacking in the area of intelligence if you believe that load of garbage. Yet somehow you think we can afford a trillion plus for weapons and wars that are useless? We spend more than all the top thirty industrialized countries combined (this includes Russia, China, India, and all, all European countries and Japan and … the list really does go on.) Talk about waste and useless spending and you say we can’t afford health care but had no issue when we had money to kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqi’s? But save lives – American children too but no!? Please, try and read even one thing that really requires some brainpower before you say something so full of nonsense, totally wrong, and immoral. We could spend ‘only’ half a trillion on defense … no, war; we don’t defend anymore, and still far out spend all our so-called enemies a number of times over – what a joke your reasoning is – don’t have the money? Unbelievable.
kay
@Paul L.:
Well, except, Specter was a Republican in a Democratic state, so it benefitted him to become a Democrat when Republicans dumped him.
It didn’t benefit Lieberman to become a Republican when Democrats dumped him, because Connecticut is a Democratic state, or I’m sure he would have.
Davis X. Machina
@jibeaux:
Ezra Klein: Can Democrats Have a 50-vote Senate?
Skippy
@Comrade Jake: Sadly, I fear that’s only too true. We’ve already had hints from Nelson and Lincoln that they won’t vote for the bill.
gwangung
Hm. Maybe being upfront and “visibly leading” has its drawbacks (I mean, you didn’t think these shennanigans wouldn’t have happened if Obama was more “visibly leading” the charge, did you?).
General Winfield Stuck
@Davis X. Machina:
Ezra says it best.
jibeaux
@Davis X. Machina:
Hm, that was good, but not what I was thinking of. There is too much Ezra.
slag
@licensed to kill time: True. I recently found the best way to deal with them–once you’re sure they’re not really interested in anything constructive–is to just say everything you have to say about them and their entire ideology all in one comment. Get it all out there and just wail on them one time. It’s like punching a wall made of silly putty. After that, you don’t even notice them. Very cathartic. I recommend it.
kay
@Demo Woman:
I just think he’s “liberal” on things that don’t impact the profit picture status quo.
Like civil rights. Or women’s rights. The things he’s a “reliable” liberal vote on are less important to me, because they’re settled law, and they’d remain settled law with or without Joe Leiberman in the Senate.
I have yet to see him back anything that might upset Wall Street, for example. Too, I think this fiscal conservatism is just such bullshit, coming from him. He’s beating the war drum to vastly increase spending in Afghanistan, for example. He finds plenty of money when he’s ginning up a new war.
Tax Analyst
I said:
“And maybe your opinion that “this is the worst time ever to try such a broad restructuringn of one of America’s more massive economic cogs” is a load of crap. Maybe you mean that introducing massive change is difficult? Certainly. It would be difficult at any time under any circumstance. The alternative, however, is to retain an untenable status quo designed to serve profits rather than patients.”
Makewi replied:
“Yeah, that 2.2% average profit margin the health insurance companies are banking is some evil shit. Or do you mean the greedy doctors who think they should earn so much. Or perhaps its the pharmaceutical companies?”
A 2.2% profit (if that figure is even to be believed) could actually be considered quite significant, particular if it is, as I suspect, a NET PROFIT percentage, which would include deducting all expenses, including, for example Executive pay, Depreciation, and Taxes. Also, when you consider the incredibly vast total U.S. expenditures for health care and insurance 2.2% NET comes to a rather tidy sum.
Another view of Health Insurance Company profits comes from a report by the Washington Community Action Network regarding the the profits of the 3 largest carriers in Washington (State):
“…the big three carriers in Washington, Regence BlueShield, Premera Blue Cross and Group Health Cooperative saw profits increase from $11 million in 2002 to $243 million in 2003 and $431 million in 2006. Their cash surplus went from $833 million in 2002 to $2.2 billion (with a “B”) in 2006. Interestingly enough they did it while covering less people. Over 2.37 million people were covered by the three in 2002 compared to 1.9 million in 2006. So the cost of health care is still going up, but the profits by private health insurance companies are rising even faster. The article shows medical costs rose 16 percent in the same period that health insurance profits went up 23 percent.”
Rather than try to place that in context myself, let me borrow a rather logical comment from one “ehutchins” who states he/she has an MBA in accounting:
“Growth from 1 to 5 cents on the dollar would be large in this context. And actually real profits are measured against effective income (after expenses and revenue) and retained earnings.”
Bottom line: That “2.2% profit” figure you so freely toss around appears to have a foundation of mainly sand and bs. It does not appear to have much, if any relation to reality. It tells me as much as the grocery store profit reports that tell us they make around 1% profit on their sales. Again, that might be true, but again, they are giving out NET PROFIT AFTER ALL EXPENSE figures. I can make the profit % of any business low if I pay myself and other favored employees (CEO’s and other high-ranking executives) enough $$$ and then feed the press and public NET profit numbers.
gwangung
@Tax Analyst: Oh, that’s too many words for our attention troll. And…math!
handy
This.
Oh and, this too.
Demo Woman
@Max: I saw that. I missed the part where they mentioned that Bush spent most of the first 8 months of his presidency on his ranch. The article did not mention that on August 6, 2001, he told the CIA that they covered their ass. The article also did not mention that while Bush played golf, while his daughter was having surgery for appendicitis. The article was a make believe column by Beck..
Davis X. Machina
Best I could do. Unanimous consent is the only way the Senate actually works — in its absence every motion, with few exceptions, is subject to debate, and every debate, under the rules of the senate, is not time-limited because the routine time limits on debate are passed by unanimous consent. Cloture takes a minimum of two-three legislative days to bring about, so a concerted minority could essentially stop the Senate.
geg6
Okay, went and listened to what Asswipeman actually said. He said he’d vote for cloture to proceed on the bill (requires 60 votes). Most likely, then they’ll move onto amendments (which will also require 60 votes). He said he’d vote for a filibuster at the next stage of cloture (to bring it to a vote), which will obviously require 60 again.
So I think it’s not as crazy as it may seem that Reid might be able to pull this off. Lots of things can happen between step 1 and step 3. And then the final vote only requires 51.
I’m not gonna panic because Princess Lieberman wants his day on the pageant catwalk.
Demo Woman
@Davis X. Machina: Can they add the option during reconciliation?
Davis X. Machina
And the moment anyone notices the absence of a quorum, everything comes to a halt, so the Democrats would have to keep n Senators, where n = 51 minus number of Republicans present, in the chamber at all times.
The damage a concerted opposition can do in the Senate is virtually limitless.
Comrade Darkness
Old Joe is reliable as always: Trillions to bomb the fuck out of foreigners that Israel doesn’t like and nothing for Americans dying of highly treatable conditions. The Lieberman sends another “fuck you” to the American people and all Reid and say is “he’s my friend.” He should have added, and “fuck you all from me too.”
And to those who think he’s changed, somehow. Go back and read the empty-headed, republican talking-point, back-stabbing crap he was spewing during the Clinton years.
CynDee
Everyone with friends and relatives without health care should write to Joe Lieberman and tell him that if their health or life is harmed by this obstruction, we will sue him for damages and wrongful death.
Also, demand that he give up his own govenment health care.
I’m sure it matters not one whit to him what we think, but it’s better to communicate your outrage to him than to let him go along with his dastardly deeds with no outcry. Maybe the press will find out how many e-mails he got.
slag
@Tax Analyst:
Damn! I knew it was crazy, but I can’t believe it’s that crazy. Seriously?
licensed to kill time
@Demo Woman: Pie that makes Gass, pie that makes wee, pie that makes drinkable bong water, pie producing pall, pretty productive pie!
@slag: pithy pie points!
Little Macayla's Friend
@Makewi:
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE59P0L320091026
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE58E45420090915
How bad does it have to get before it’s time to fix a broken cog?
kay
@geg6:
I want them to try for George Voinovich. He’s retiring, and he seems to be holding a huge grudge against the GOP. He’s sort of small and vindictive. Maybe he’d do it just for an F-you on the way out.
He doesn’t much care for southerners, we have learned :)
General Winfield Stuck
@General Winfield Stuck:
But Ezra takes it a little to far I think for giving the wingers a sustainable reason for shutting down the Senate. Since the Reconciliation Process was adopted in the early seventies most of the times it’s been used for big legislation has been by the GOP, for things like Welfare Reform/ So they would have little room to talk and wide open for being hypocrites, which is nothing knew. But to close down the Senate for something they have done themselves would likely blow back on them. But they are crazy shits these days, so anything is possible.
Tax Analyst
gwangung said:
“@Tax Analyst: Oh, that’s too many words for our attention troll. And…math!”
Yeah, you’re probably right, but I’ve been busy and haven’t been around to read or comment in a while, so I had some extra words to use up.
Besides, I was getting tired of reading that “only 2.2% profit” crap without any defining context. If someone wants me to take that number seriously they can point me to a GROSS profit percentage report of 2.2% that includes enough transparency to show me the actual component numbers.
JasonF
I see two possibilities here (not counting stuff like “Senator Lieberman has gone insane”).
Possibility one is that Senator Lieberman will wind up voting for cloture, but he’s trying to extract something in return. I don’t know what that something is, but I’d bet there is something.
If he doesn’t vote for cloture, the caucus has no reason to allow him to keep his seniority and his chairmanships. They basically extended an olive branch to him in 2008; if he turns around and bites them on the first vote where they need him, there is no incentive not to punish him severely. He knows this.
Possibility two is he’s getting ready to leave the Senate to go work for Fox News as a highly paid talking head, and he wants the credibility with the right he would get by blowing up the public option.
I don’t see him going to work as a lobbyist if he blows this up because blowing this up would be a huge “Fuck you” to the Democratic caucus, and who wants to hire a lobbyist who has just pissed off the people he will be lobbying? Besides, given 1) the waiting period between leaving the Senate and becoming a lobbyist, and 2) Joe’s love of the spotlight (being a lobbyist would take him out of the spotlight), I don’t see him doing this in furtherance of a lobbying gig.
madmommy
@tomvox1:
Well, that didn’t take long, did it?
General Winfield Stuck
@madmommy:
somebody please give that woman some Valium, a lot of it.
geg6
@kay:
I think that’s a vote that could be had. You’re right about Voinovich. I can imagine him giving them the finger with a smile on his face. I saw him on something recently and the way he was talking about his erstwhile GOP colleagues was a bit shocking to me. And then I remembered that he’s retiring and doesn’t give a shit any more.
slippy
@Makewi: Perhaps you are currently unaware that “fiscal conservative” is an oxymoron, with emphasis on moron?
“Yammering about costs” left the barn about six years ago, when we picked an unbudgeted fight with Iraq while cutting taxes on those who needed it least.
You coming along now and claiming the paltry $900 billion required to fix HC over the next 10 years is too expensive is exactly what I’d expect from a STUPID ASSHOLE who thinks we all are fucking ignorant and blind and can’t remember who was in charge of the till for the preceding 8 years.
How about when the budget gets tight we jack up the top marginal tax rate to 95%? It will have no conceivable effect on our economy, since tax cuts for the rich have had no demonstrable benefit to the rest of us.
kay
@tomvox1:
Except.
Reid just gave Leiberman a kiss while Robert Gibbs gave him a gentle smack.
Which would seem to indicate that the White House is displeased while Reid isn’t worried.
slag
I’m with the WH on this issue:
Come on, Connecticut. Beat him down hard, fast, and loud. Make an example out of him. Please. We need you.
Zuzu's Petals
@geg6:
Not to mention nasty and immature, a recent foot-stomping comment to soonergrunt being a prime example.
geg6
@kay:
Meanwhile, my senator who no longer loves the GOP and now fancies himself a leftie just tweeted:
jibeaux
@kay:
That’s a really interesting thought. Maybe they have him already. He could really make history, the right side of history, with one surprising vote. That would be teh awsum. I wonder what the Trike Force would send to his retirement home?
geg6
@geg6:
That was Snarlin’ Arlen, if anyone was confused.
Makewi
@Little Macayla’s Friend:
Why not just fix the “broken” parts?
handy
@geg6:
wow
kay
@geg6:
He’s also a mean, vindictive person. So that’s good, for our limited purposes.
I read he was considering an appointment to a college. I assume “President”. Maybe he doesn’t need that lucrative lobbying job.
Max
@Demo Woman: I know. The media is a joke.
Martin
He’s always extracting something – he’s an independent. In his mind he’s the samurai in Yojimbo. He needs to extract committee chairmanship, seniority, and so on. And even when he has it, he needs to either keep it or bargain for better, because it’ll never be handed to him.
He’ll do the talk shows and Reid will ask him what he needs in exchange for his vote, something will be worked out and something will show up in the amendments to give Lieberman cover to vote for it.
Tax Analyst
Makewi said:
“Why not just fix the “broken” parts?”
Well why not just stick a freaking band-aid on a sucking chest wound?
Makewi
@Tax Analyst:
Everything you believe is the gods given truth, and everything you don’t is a lie. It’s funny how that works. I guess that’s the way the world works when you go to sources like “washington can” to get your facts.
kay
@jibeaux:
It was the car battles, back in March, although he also came out against all the spending in Iraq, in 2006. His argument was we should be building infrastructure here rather than there.
He’s pissed at the southern Republicans for trashing American cars. I’m sure he heard from his constituents. Auto manufacturer isn’t limited to UAW guys on a line in urban areas. 3/4’s of the small manufacturers where I live make parts or supply parts-makers, and this is a solid GOP county.
Demo Woman
@Martin: Hopefully the nation can afford what he wants. I’d rather see Ohio or Maine get lucrative subsidies myself. Then I would strip his committee chair.
Makewi
@Zuzu’s Petals:
Yeah, because his comment to me was full of sunshine and rainbows. It must be so comforting to view every loving thing through purely partisan lenses.
Throwin Stones
@kay: That would be great, and he’s in the perfect position to do so. But the last letter I received from Voinovich after I contacted him contained all the usual RW BS – deregulation, tort reform, and I’m sure tax cuts were in there somewhere.
Demo Woman
@Makewi: lol you are better than that
gwangung
@Demo Woman: Yeah, but why should she be? She’s getting what she wants with her current behavior.
Martin
There are no ‘broken parts’. The system is fundamentally unstable. The reason you see no functioning free-market health insurance systems is that health insurance cannot work in a competitive environment without blowing up. Everyone has figured that out except for us, because too many Americans worship at the church of the free-market, even in scenarios when it’s been proven to not work.
People like you refuse to accept the evidence that it’s impossible, and keep going back to the ‘why don’t we just fix it’ question. It’s like a 3 year old asking mom and dad why Santa can’t just come to the house every day.
Little Macayla's Friend
@Makewi:
Broken parts? I don’t see any comments from you at this post:
https://balloon-juice.com/?p=28682#comments
But maybe you did read it and forgot?
Post is based on this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/business/smallbusiness/25health.html?hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1256414749-mgUcGvxLUeSa9Iuq3bvYBw
Are you reading all the links people are providing you, or caught in an endless ideological loop?
RW_Gadfly
What can I say? Y’all fucked up in trying to primary the guy. Don’t say you weren’t warned!
Hehehehehe…..
Chad N Freude
@Makewi: I don’t find “Your statements are ridiculous!” to be a compelling argument. The only counterargument I can think of is “They are not!” Here’s another statement to add to the Ridiculous Pile: Increased taxes on persons and institutions that have benefited from the financial bailout can offset part of the burgeoning deficit.
Regarding incremental change, I don’t think that would work. After the first incremental improvement, how would the second, the third, the fourth be guaranteed? How could we be sure that “small measurable incremental change” will bring about the same desired results? How could incremental changes be kept from taking so long that any long-term benefit would be negated by political maneuvering by affected business interest? Or maybe you would rather I just said “Relying on small measurable incremental change is ridiculous.”
hypusine
btw, Nate’s take on Lieberman sounds about right.
gwangung
Uh, what makes you think she’d EVER do that?
Chad N Freude
@Demo Woman: Actually, no. Makewi starts every discussion with a chip on her shoulder big enough to break any casino in Las Vegas. She never acknowledges possible merit in anything anyone else says if it disagrees with her. She dismisses any arguments against her position with invective instead of counterargument. So, no, she is not better than that.
Midnight Marauder
@Demo Woman:
No.
Chad N Freude
My last comment is in moderation, I assume because I used a word signifying a place where people wager money that probably also appears in scam messages. So here’s an edited version that might be more acceptable to WTF (WordPress The Filter).
@Demo Woman: Actually, no. Makewi starts every discussion with a chip on her shoulder big enough to break any bank in the state of Nevada. She never acknowledges possible merit in anything anyone else says if it disagrees with her. She dismisses any arguments against her position with invective instead of counterargument. So, no, she is not better than that.
kay
@Throwin Stones:
I have no idea if it will work. It may well be wishful thinking. I write him too, and I’m not seeing a whole lot of movement there, so I sympathize.
Still, people like to be asked. Democrats could do a big, public “ask” and make him say no. What’s the harm in that?
RW_Gadfly
@CynDee: Also, demand that he give up his own govenment health care.
But he doesn’t really have government health care — which has been among our admonitions to Congressional supporters of the government plan all along: if you think it’ll be such a good thing for people, will you give up your coverage and enroll yourself and your family in it?
I’m not sure we had one taker.
The Federal Employees Health Benefits Program is administered by the Office of Personnel Management. However, all of the coverage is through a network of private insurers.
Zuzu's Petals
@Makewi:
Interesting that you refuse to address his or her main point.
Which is that you did not distinguish between net and gross profits in throwing out your numbers, but a 2.2% NET profit would actually be a pretty healthy increase.
Tax Analyst
Makewi said:
@Tax Analyst:
Everything you believe is the gods given truth, and everything you don’t is a lie. It’s funny how that works. I guess that’s the way the world works when you go to sources like “washington can” to get your facts.”
Hey, I gave you my sources. I don’t see yours, although I’m speculating it’s the PriceWaterhouseCoopers report which was done at the behest of the health insurance industry. I’ve looked at the PWC report – it reminds me of the Republican Stimulus Plan…PWC’s “report” consists of FIVE pages, but when you get to page 3 you see that it consists of a another graph that takes up less than 40% of the page – the rest of page 3 is blank. Page 4 a brief outline of 4 points that totals about 75 words of text, a large blank area in the middle, and 9 footnote reference items listed at the bottom. Page 5 consists of footnote item #10, which consists of about 35 words that tell you the “formula” PWC used in concluding that
“In 2008, the profit margin of the top 10 for-profit health plans equaled less than 2 days’ worth of National Health Care expenditures.”
Now listen up, cuz this is exactly how they say they do it:
“If you take the data from the National Health Expenditures and divide by profits for the top 10 companies you get a percentage. Then taking the percentage and multiplying it by 365, you get a total of roughly 2 days.”
Now the problem with this calculation method, at least as I see it, is that they seem to be calculating the median percentage rather than an actual dollar percentage. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding PWC’s explanation.
Chad N Freude
@Zuzu’s Petals:
It’s what she does.
gwangung
@Tax Analyst: Still too many words for her. And she has to think in order to get off a bon mot.
Tax Analyst
OOPS – I meant to mention that the entire text of that PWC report appears to be slightly more than 200 words.
Throwin Stones
@kay: Couldn’t hurt. Who knows, maybe he’d like to be on the right side of history. I did enjoy his commentary on southern senators regarding the auto bailout.
Did you read which university he was interested in?
Makewi
@Tax Analyst:
Here’s a source, that known right wing talking point machine known as AP.
RW_Gadfly
@Tax Analyst: And maybe your opinion that “this is the worst time ever to try such a broad restructuringn of one of America’s more massive economic cogs” is a load of crap. Maybe you mean that introducing massive change is difficult? Certainly. It would be difficult at any time under any circumstance. The alternative, however, is to retain an untenable status quo designed to serve profits rather than patients.
This is one of the things that’s been so frustrating to me in this whole debacle.
The alternative, Tax Analyst, is most definitely NOT limited to an “untenable status quo.” That is a false choice. It would be like me saying to you “Well, our choices with Social Security are to either institute private savings accounts or continue let it careen over a cliff. Which one do you want?”
Would you agree that those are our only two choices? Of course you wouldn’t. And you’d be right.
You’re right that reforming healthcare is both necessary and hard. And that’s why, as in 1993, the Democrats might have been smarter to try to forge a broader consensus reform rather than trying to blatantly move us towards a single-payer system that no Republican is going to support.
It’s not hard to understand why the Dems would do this — particularly this go around — with the numbers they have. But with the emotional nature of the issue, not to mention the lobbyist pressure, taking this step would obviously require a number of moderate/conservative Democrats to take one for the team.
The aim of reform should be to rein in runaway healthcare costs. That can be done — and I’m relatively certain it could be done with enough support from both parties to provide everybody cover with angry voters and affected lobbies. But the dreams of single-payer healthcare would have to be shelved in order to do that.
Joe Lieberman’s not saying “Screw You!” to the country with this announcement. The people who are saying “Public Option (or Single-Payer) or No Bill” are the ones doing that….because they’re putting those goals above the goal of reforms the healthcare system desperately needs.
Tax Analyst
RW Gadfly said (in part):
“…The aim of reform should be to rein in runaway healthcare costs. That can be done—and I’m relatively certain it could be done with enough support from both parties to provide everybody cover with angry voters and affected lobbies. But the dreams of single-payer healthcare would have to be shelved in order to do that.”
Not to be overly argumentative (well, maybe a little), but since you do not mention it can we assume that you’re not particularly interested in making health care available to those who are currently uninsured?
There is certainly a pressing need to rein in costs but I believe providing affordable health care to as many people as possible should stand right there (at least) alongside of that.
I disagree with you about Joe Lieberman’s motivations. In my opinion Lieberman has done little but grandstand and obstruct since his most recent re-election. He wants or perhaps even craves attention and obviously relishes the thought of being courted by the majority party…and having his every inane, self-serving utterance make the front page somewhere.
Personally, I don’t see the insurance companies cutting anybody much slack on premium costs or their post-premium payment exclusion tactics unless they have at least a firm, heavy pair of boots attending their necks and asses. I see very few feet that would fit into those boots outside of a Public Option.
I would be willing to consider any reasonable counter-proposal that addressed both reining in costs AND providing adequate and affordable coverage to the currently and eventually (under the current system) uninsured. I don’t believe these dual goals can be achieved without stepping on at least a few toes of the health insurance cabal. We already know how the insurance companies want to handle our health care – they have amply demonstrated where there main concerns lie, and it’s not with my health and it’s not with your health, either. I do not care for their system or their methods and I do not trust them to significantly reform the way they go about their business.
I suppose the question might be posed as “whose toes are more important?”, and it’s one that is perhaps overdue in being plainly laid out there.
Little Macayla's Friend
@Makewi:
The AP article says nothing about why many health insurance companies are for-profit in the first place, one of the central issues in the debate. People don’t require tupperware or bleach to physically survive.
And the purpose of single payer, e.g., is to reduce costs, which occur before profits.
If the present system worked, average premiums wouldn’t be going up 15% a year in a year of severe recession.
http://www.reuters.com/article…..L320091026
http://www.reuters.com/article…..5420090915
Little Macayla's Friend
Possible double post.
@Makewi:
The AP article says nothing about why many health insurance companies are for-profit in the first place, one of the central issues in the debate. People don’t require tupperware or bleach to physically survive.
And the purpose of single payer, e.g., is to reduce costs, which occur before profits.
If the present system worked, average premiums wouldn’t be going up 15% a year in a year of severe recession.
http://www.reuters.com/article…..L320091026
http://www.reuters.com/article…..5420090915
Zuzu's Petals
@RW_Gadfly:
Just to say I don’t really agree with your comment, but sure do appreciate the civility.
Makewi
@Little Macayla’s Friend:
Other things that are operated by for profit business that are necessary to survive: Food, clothes, and shelter.
Tax Analyst
Makewi said:
“@Tax Analyst:
Here’s a source, that known right wing talking point machine known as AP.”
Well, thank you. I appreciate the sourcing information.
But I would like to point out once again that this story only tells us there was an industry-wide 2.2% profit margin but does not define the calculation methodology. We still don’t know if it refers to Net Profit or Gross Profit. If they relied upon the PWC “report” (I use quotation marks here because in my opinion the PWC paper would only barely qualify for an 8th grade class report) was the calculation done to compute the median profit percentage or a more realistic actual dollar percentage? I’m guessing that the AP reporter who wrote the article is not particularly knowledgable in either economics nor in accounting and is just regurgitation industry-generated statistics that he has been spoon-fed.
But I could be wrong…it’s happened once or twice before.
Little Macayla's Friend
Working links:
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE59P0L320091026
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE58E45420090915
Tax Analyst
Zuzu’s Petals said:
“@RW_Gadfly:
Just to say I don’t really agree with your comment, but sure do appreciate the civility.”
Yeah, I’ll second that remark.
Little Macayla's Friend
@Makewi:
But the hundreds of options on food, clothing and shelter are not limited by pre-existing conditions, 80% market share in a state, or routine claims denials in which case you stay with the single existing available insurer you have. Or go without.
Chuck Butcher
Make Piss comes in and spouts the right wing talking points and claims to be arguing in “good faith.” Troll, spoof, or just dumbass it makes no sense to go farther with it than to mock it.
Lying liars are that and you really have nowhere to go with them rationally, so you’re left with either a pie filter or mockery. I opt for occasional fierce mockery since it is really really really easy.
Makewi
@Tax Analyst:
The source is the Fortune 500 listing, and fortunately they do provide their methodology.
Zuzu's Petals
@Tax Analyst:
Nice to have a real discussion, isn’t it?
Makewi
@Chuck Butcher:
You really had nowhere to go rationally to begin with, seeing as how you just don’t like dissenting opinions. Poor upchuck, needs the safe cocoon of complete agreement.
Kirk Spencer
@Makewi:
Actually the source is Calvin Woodward. And Calvin Woodward is factually wrong and using a dishonest argument as well. I can see, however, how many would take it as being honest, so let me enlighten.
On the normal average basis that Woodward is (allegedly) using the average insurance company net profit margin is 3.3%, not under 2%. That, by the way, is giving every company equal weight – well, every company that is public and so has to show its numbers in quarterly financial reports. But if we take those companies and add their revenues and their net profits and divide the latter into the former it turns out the number is a bit over 5% net profit margin. In fairness, however, this makes it hard to compare to other industries.
Though it’s the other industries where the dishonest argument comes into play. First there’s the interesting point that banks – you know, like Bank of America and all those making money hand over fist while paying huge bonuses off our tax dollars – have a lower net profit margin than health insurance companies. Using the average that’s just under 1.7%, and weighting it we get banks to 2.5%.
Let me point out another example of where the dishonesty lies. Salaries and bonuses are paid before net profits are determined. So are investments and re-investments.
It was a very misleading article. Hopefully you’ll understand and refrain from using it as evidence for or against positions.
redstar
Anyone seen Joe’s forehead? It’s damn huge!
Seriously, you could put Target Corp.’s logo on it and there would still be space left over.
Just saying.
And, as Glenn Beck would say, Free Speech!
Deborah
@RW_Gadfly: And that’s why, as in 1993, the Democrats might have been smarter to try to forge a broader consensus reform rather than trying to blatantly move us towards a single-payer system that no Republican is going to support.
Dude. Come on. There were Republican contributions to the bills, such as the end of life counseling. The GA rep who wrote that section gave a few very sensible interviews about it, until he was forced to admit that those were after all death panels and awful and he would never vote for such a thing. The one thing the shrieks of August firmly established is that it doesn’t matter what’s in the bill; Republicans are voting against it and hoping in 2012 it has failed. Dems could pass a resolution observing that the moon is up in the sky and the Reps would whip their people in line to oppose this, hoping in 3 years it would turn out to be A Failure of the Obama Administration.
And single payer is nowhere on the table. The bills being considered, now with almost no Republican input since it’s been made clear their input is to say “Whatever, No,” are market based reforms that are small-c conservative in nature. They’re ideas Republicans could get behind if they weren’t so committed to being the party of No.
I agree with you about costs, but you’ll note that in 1993 health reform did not pass. This time around the theory is to get everyone covered first, then try to bend costs once everyone has skin in the game.
gwangung
That’s a good joke.
Midnight Marauder
@Kirk Spencer:
Hahahaha. Oh man, that is rich.
Makewi
@Little Macayla’s Friend:
These things are limited as well, by your ability to pay and by the willingness of the provider to provide the good. In addition, things like electricity, water and gas are limited by market share.
inkadu
255 comments, most of them (I imagine) disparaging Joe Lieberman.
I hate that odious little toad, but I love BJ commenters.
Makewi
@Kirk Spencer:
How are you calculating those figures, what’s your source for the raw data and the discrepancy in the type of calculation used?
Tax Analyst
Kirk Spencer said: (re: Makewi’s link to the AP article on Health Insurance company profits)
“Actually the source is Calvin Woodward. And Calvin Woodward is factually wrong and using a dishonest argument as well. I can see, however, how many would take it as being honest, so let me enlighten.
On the normal average basis that Woodward is (allegedly) using the average insurance company net profit margin is 3.3%, not under 2%. That, by the way, is giving every company equal weight – well, every company that is public and so has to show its numbers in quarterly financial reports. But if we take those companies and add their revenues and their net profits and divide the latter into the former it turns out the number is a bit over 5% net profit margin. In fairness, however, this makes it hard to compare to other industries.”
Kirk, thank you for contextualizing the point I was trying to make about the calculation method. I was having trouble describing why the calculation method appeared to be disingenuous and intentionally misleading but the best I could come up with was to describe the results they produced as the median average. I think that is correct, but providing an example as you have is much more effective. Your explanation is much clearer and concise and gets to the point I was trying to make – that this method fails to properly weight the respective size of each company. Surely there would be a large variance in the revenue volumes between the #1 company and the #10, yet this method would allow a #10 company that perhaps had little profit or even lost money to cancel out the #1 company numbers. From what I have seen the 5% figure would be just about spot-on.
Gwangung
@Tax Analyst: Sounds like the Woodrappe version of how to fit so many animals on the Ark.
Little Macayla's Friend
@Makewi:
Finally, three prime examples of semi-sockulism (which is the best that can be said for any of the health care bills) for places like where I live!
Electricity – effective regulations, rates went down this year of severe recession because natural gas prices went down.
Water – here, also a public utility, not privatised.
Gas – natural gas? my rates also went down. Gasoline? When speculation and economic bubbles drive the price to $4 a gallon, we have buses, light rail and land use control to keep jobs and people closer together.
Why did my health insurance premiums go up 25% when my health hasn’t changed?
Tax Analyst
Zuzu’s Petals said:
“@Tax Analyst:
Nice to have a real discussion, isn’t it?”
Yes. When I can see the other person is working from an attitude of general courtesy and civility it’s much easier to keep my “dander” under my hat. I might still come off a little caustic now and then because it’s hard to cool down 100% in a couple minutes, but there’s a better chance that I’ll wait an extra minute and re-read my screed before tapping the “Submit” button.
Chad N Freude
@Tax Analyst: This has been an interesting and informative discussion. It is therefore incumbent on me to ruin everything with a couple of bad jokes.
Does anyone … still wear … a hat? (h/t Sondheim’s “Company”). [h/t … get it?]
Tax Analyst
Chad – I could see that coming from a mile away even as I was typing it – I left it because I wanted to see if anyone was still out there.
And no, I don’t wear a hat anymore…I hardly ever did. I recall I wore one most of the time when I managed a surplus store back in the early-to-mid-eighties, but outside of that I’ve never been to keen on hats.
Oh, it was camoflauge, of course.
Chad N Freude
@Tax Analyst: Get hold of a CD of Sondheim’s “Company” and listen to “The Ladies Who Lunch”.
I like the stuff you write. It makes me feel edumacated.
Comrade Kevin
@Little Macayla’s Friend:
Because private, for-profit health insurance is a legal, unregulated extortion racket.
Wile E. Quixote
@Makewi
You’re right, we face a dire financial situation. That’s why we need to cut the defense budget immediately. We should get rid of the entire Minuteman force, the Air Force has shown that they aren’t responsible enough to handle nuclear weapons and there’s nothing that a Minuteman III can do that the Trident D-5 can do just as well. We should also pull our troops out of Japan, South Korea and Germany and immediately cut all of our foreign aid to Israel and Egypt. The Japanese, South Koreans and Germans can defend themselves and who gives a shit if the Israelis and Egyptians kill each other off?
Then, since we didn’t find any WMD in Iraq and since Saddam Hussein is dead we should pull our troops out. If the Iraqis can’t get their shit together by now no amount of American military force is going to be able to do it for them. Also General McChrystal’s plan to bring democracy to Afghanistan needs to be shitcanned and we should pull our troops out as well. There’s nothing that the US is going to be able to do there that the British and the Soviets weren’t, the place is a shithole.
That should go a long way towards putting our financial house in order.
wilfred
Widening the war in Afghanistan. You’d never know from reading this blog but casualties are mounting – this month the highest death toll in the war. Health care may be the only domestic issue on everybody’s mine but its foreign policy doppelganger is forever war in Afghanistan.
20 days separated Johnson’s victory on Medicare and his decision to commit US forces to ground combat in Southeast Asia.
Here we are again.
TenguPhule
Simply enslaving all card carrying Republicans and their media whores and their immediate families for the next ten generations would solve that problem quite easily.
IndieTarheel
@jibeaux: Read this:
Saw this.
RW_Gadfly
I’m interested in making healthcare affordable enough for the vast majority of people to be able to be priced into the system….with subsidies picking up the slack for those who aren’t.
So, yes, I’m entirely interested in making it so that everybody is in a position to receive the healthcare services they need.
The chief problem now is that we’ve created a hyperinflationary monster that has simply priced gobs of people out of that market.
Believe it or not, this hasn’t always been the case. Healthcare services used to be no less affordable than food or other basic necessities. It was — ironically — only when we decided that it was more or less a universal right that it started on the inflationary path.
I wish we could truly make it a right — but it’s a scarce, limited resource and as such just as subject to the constraints of economics as any other scarce resource. Those things which we long have recognized as universal, unlimited rights (like speech and religion) aren’t similarly limited.
RW_Gadfly
But I’m not sure why you wouldn’t see taking care of the former as the best way to achieve the latter….particularly if we’re concerned about maintaining those aspects of our current healthcare system that we like. We tend to forget about those during these discussions.
It’s been remarkable to watch prices of those healthcare services which are mostly funded through either private or public insurance go through the roof….while prices for elective healthcare services that are usually paid for out-of-pocket (think: Lasik) go the opposite direction.
There’s a reason for that.
There’s also a reason that nearly everybody in the country can at least afford to eat at McDonald’s for a few bucks. Food’s just as necessary to sustain life as healthcare is — and, yet, it’s eminently affordable.
The CIA tells me we’re a country with 270 million cell phones in service. Think about that for a second. 307 million people, 270 million cell phones.
How is it that prices for mobile phones have come down enough such that most people can afford them…but prices for healthcare services have soared?
Again, there’s a reason.
To be perfectly honest, what we need in healthcare isn’t so much a wholesale policy reform (though we do need that, too). What we need first, I think, is a wholesale paradigm shift on how we look at healthcare.
The reason that we’re in the situation we’re in with it is the same reason that universal systems in Canada and elsewhere suffer shortages: we insist on looking at something that is of limited supply as something to which we all have an indeterminate right to demand.
And that’s simply unrealistic, no matter how we try to go about making it work.
RW_Gadfly
I didn’t say they should have Republican contributions to the bill. I said they should’ve sought to craft a bill that could attract significant support from both parties. There’s a difference.
The reason for this is because reforming healthcare is a helluva gambit. It’s profoundly personal and it touches every single American. Moreover, it’s no secret that there are very powerful lobbies which could or will be impacted…and we can’t wish them away.
As such, if such a reform is drawn up to rely on votes from one party, then it puts all the heat on that party. They have no cover whatsoever.
It was no different than when GWB sought to reform Social Security. He approached it in a way that virtually guaranteed no Democratic support — and Congressional Republicans were wholly unwilling to go out on that limb with him.
How do you know that? The “shrieks of August” were in response to the particular bill (HR3200, mostly) that was solely geared towards getting Democratic votes.
How can you say that any bill, of any kind, would’ve been similarly received?
Granted, it may have been impossible to draft a bill that got significant support from either or both the hard left and the hard right. But I think it could’ve been drawn up to capture plenty of support from both parties.
I don’t agree with any of that.
The guy who came up with the idea of a “public option” (Jacob Hacker) even fully admits that it’s an alternative pathway to get us to a single-payer system. In fact, he scoffed at it being called a “trojan horse.”
I’m not much for pretense. Those who say they don’t view the “public option” as an indirect path to single-payer either haven’t thought about it very much or are being disingenuous.
If you’re among the former group, I’ll gladly demonstrate to you why this is the case. If you’re among the latter, then I’d just politely tell you to go yank somebody else’s chain.
Beyond the public option, most of the rest of the reforms in the bill seem destined to only make healthcare more expensive for the bulk of us who are already paying way too much into the system.
I know — it’s a bad theory. It doesn’t fix the fundamental problems creating the high costs and prices. At best, it simply reorients how we absorb those costs — while at the same time adding to them by expanding coverage under the flawed model.
We should seek to go the other way with this: make reforms that do address these fundamental problems so that costs and prices normalize….a desirable by-product of which being that far more people can afford to buy into the market.