John Cole is upset. The bill does add gender identity to the roster of victims, and I should have noted that as well. But the inference that if you oppose the logic behind this bill, you support violence or discrimination against transgender people is repulsive. Here’s Cole’s moronic gibe:
What does it say that Sullivan only seems to give a shit about the gays. What about the lesbians? What about transexuals? Why do you hate them, Andrew?
Of course I don’t. What conceivable evidence do you have for saying so?
Andrew, I’m just applying your standard. You’re the one who spent the last 36 hours complaining that Obama really doesn’t care about gay rights because he didn’t use the word “gay” at the signing ceremony. Using your standard, what are we supposed to do but assume you do not care about lesbians and transgendered since you failed to mention them all day in your rants.
Additionally, Andrew completely ignores the points brought up by the commenters here about why Obama’s language was appropriate at the ceremonies. Andrew likewise ignores all of the comments from those of you who chimed in about why this was a good and necessary bill and why it should be supported. At least he has now acknowledged that the bill he claimed does nothing actually does something new. That is progress, I guess.
freelancer
Disaffected ex-Republican fight!
Where’s the pop-
Oh wait, Cole’s right.
Duh.
Redshirt
If the past is any indication, expect a “mea culpa” by tomorrow mid-day.
General Winfield Stuck
OH boy. A cross blog flame war.
Just say the word El Commadante Cole and we’ll bring the battle to Sully’s doorstep.
Sully’s minions are Potemkin Villagers and don’t stand a chance.
Hooo ahaaa!
margarita
Andrew, I’m just applying your standard.
Yeah, this was obvious. The only question is whether Sullivan is being deliberately obtuse or if it just comes natural.
gnomedad
Awfully nice of you to provide a comment section for Sully. Think of all the WordPress fail he’s avoiding.
beltane
At least he listens to you. Almost every single post you write about him gets a prompt response. Now he will think about this a little more.
John Sears
@margarita: Naturally AND deliberately, I should think. He hasn’t apologized for the ‘No Exit’ smear piece/obvious lie yet, has he?
Joe Vegas
Blog fight! Blog fight!
gizmo
John,
Lesbians come under the category “gay.” So if Sullivan mentioned gays, then he did indeed express concern about lesbians.
Not defending Sullivan, just making an observation about the semantics….
valdivia
Snap!
robertdsc
I’ll take Tunch over the beagles any day of the week.
Comrade Tudor
I must say, following the back and forth between you and Sullivan has been most enjoyable. I need some popcorn and some sour patch kids…
valdivia
@robertdsc:
LOL. So do I for that matter. We are all Tunch now.
Xenos
These hate crime bills are not meaningless feel-good statutes. They federalize, very appropriately, what are really terrorist attacks on our fellow citizens.
Why is Sully being so soft on terrorism? Is it because he is a decadent coastal elitist? He sounds like just another objectively pro-lynching conservative to me.
Zifnab
Sully doesn’t allow comments on his site.
Why?
Perhaps because then he’d have this kind of shitstorm of a rebuttal a little too close to home. The guy’s ass is clearly chapped by another blogger’s critique, three internet blocks away. Imagine having that sort of contradictory language inside his little verbal bubble.
Pussy.
JenJen
Cole’s “moronic gibe”?
Moronic gibe??
If there’s such a thing as Peak Blogger, we have reached it. Indeed, surpassed. Congratulations, Sully.
Ailuridae
@gizmo:
That’s not the case in any queer vernacular I ever hear. Its GLBQ or GLBT. Homosexual is certainly an umbrella term for gay and lesbian (but not transgendered or bisexuals) but I haven’t heard anyone arguing that ‘gay’ covers lesbians in a couple of decades.
Zifnab
Sully doesn’t allow comments on his site.
Why?
Perhaps because then he’d have this kind of shitstorm of a rebuttal a little too close to home. The guy’s ass is clearly chapped by another blogger’s critique, three internet blocks away. Imagine having that sort of contradictory language inside his little verbal bubble.
Pu ssy.
freelancer
@gizmo:
Yesterday, we found out here that Sullivan, in addition to hating non-male GBLT individuals, he also hates women and non-white people with a passion.
/rolls eyes.
I don’t know how he could be so thick as to not get John’s Over the Top snark about his blatant overreaction though. Jesus, man. Go fire up a joint on the pier again.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
Gah.
I love reading Sully. But hate times like this.
He has a good point, at his core. I respect his urge to fight (even as I’m re-reading Mismeasure of Man, and recalling his abhorrent support for the thesis of The Bell Curve). I wish more people fighting oppression and prejudice had the space and power and credentials to speak to as large an audience as he gets online, and I’m grateful, honestly so, for his reminders that Obama has promises yet to keep. I’ve no beef with him keeping politicos honest, as a rule.
But man, the dude is beyond whiplash at this point. I stopped reading for a time, during the waves of tabloid-eqse Palin hate, and this is of a piece — it’s Sully not seeing the forest for the trees, yet fuckin’ again.
There’s not a thin line between angry-yet-wise critique, and the kind of posturing Sully’s doing in this case. He needs to simmer up, and get some wise criticisms going, not just nit-picking to the point that he doesn’t grasp the totality of legislation he’s clearly not read, or a speech he clearly keyworded instead of listened to.
smiley
OT: I haven’t had time today to read the comments threads today so I don’t know if someone has already linked to this story. Right-wing politicians in South Carolina are at ir again (love the image Tbogg used).
Comrade Tudor
@gizmo:
Yes, but in the acronym “LGBT,” lesbian is a separate word. So yes, Lesbians are gay, but gay is usually referencing males, at least in the “Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender” sense.
valdivia
Also I can point that Sulli’s first line is stupid (and sort of condescending)? “Cole is upset?” Ummm. The one upset last night, ranting off the hook was you Sulli, John was simply pointing out how illogical and blind you were being.
freelancer
Sullivan should know better than to mess with the Balloon Juice Voltron that is Tunch, Lily, Cole, and Sam RedKitten.
Aaron and the dogs don’t stand a chance.
The Bearded Blogger
@Ailuridae:
In another thread, I talked about how LGBT made me think of a sandwich, maybe with gruyere or goat cheese in it. GLBQ, an acronym I hadn’t heard before, is intriguing in this sense.
Fencedude
I’m sure there is a fascinating story behind why there is a separate word for gay females but not one for gay males, but its really pretty irrelevant to the overall point at hand here.
SpotWeld
He continues with:
I’m pretty much convinced at this point he really has no idea what he’s commenting on here. He just needed some quick filler to put on his blog and just tossed out something that made sense. (In the same way that drinking instant coffee can make sense while groggy first thing in the morning.)
Now he’s been called on it and is attempting t use blogger-ninjutsu to distract you until something even more bizzare arises from the politcal blogosphere and distracts everyone. (Which will occur the next time Glenn Beck opens his mouth… or his red bat-phone rings)
ImpliedObserver
I just assumed you were being sarcastic. I guess Sullivan doesn’t get it.
Punchy
Who is Andrew Sullivan and why the fuck should I care?
Beauzeaux
I know lesbians who referred to themselves as gay. I also know lesbians who insist that “lesbian” is the only acceptable term to use.
I would call the word police in to settle this, but their number is unlisted.
Warren Terra
What Sully’s doing reminds me of way back when when some professional pearl-clutchers were upset that in one of his major speeches Obama referred to Martin Luther King indirectly (as a preacher, and with some description of a relevant statement by King, iirc) but – and this is what chafed their hide – did not actually refer to King by name. So anyone with any sort of a clue could grasp the reference in the speech, make the connections, and the poetry of the writing really connected – but these people, the sort that Molly Ivins used to refer to as “fainting goats”, thought Obama was a terrible person for not mentioning the name, too.
I don’t remember whether Sully chimed in during that earlier invented controversy – but if you look at Cole’s post from earlier today, it’s very clear he’s concocting exactly the same farcical outrage of omission:
and
(Admittedly this covers not only same-sex partnerships but also interracial couples – but don’t both deserve such a reference)
and
This is, of course, an unmistakable reference to Matthew Shepard.
But, as Cole notes, Sullivan still gets to be outraged that Obama alluded the human dignity and rights of homosexuals without saying the word, so he must be a bigot.
Dean
Sorry, I usually like Sully, but in this case he is looking particularly ‘douche-like’.
If he’s smart he’ll just admit he had a misfire from the back of the ole’ brain stem, then move on.
We’ll see.
JenJen
@freelancer:
And, if I may toot our own party horn for a moment, an open comments section.
gbear
@The Bearded Blogger:
GBLT. It’s held together with a cocktail parasol instead of toothpick spears. Fabulous!
(I get to make this joke because I’m G.)
licensed to kill time
@gnomedad: Ha ha! It’s why I don’t read Sully much – no back and forth, just holding forth.
The Bearded Blogger
@Beauzeaux: The thing with “lesbian” is that it also referes to the inhabitants of Lesbos… gay, on the other hand, has the downside of putting male and female homosexuals in the same bag.
@gbear: Is there an acronym for “almost LOLed but I’m at work and contained myself?”
James F. Elliott
For a man who professes to love South Park, Sullivan sure doesn’t allow his sense of humor to get in the way of some deliberate obtuseness. On what planet is any sentence whose first clause is “Why do you hate…” no longer immediately acknowledged as snark?
James F. Elliott
Ack, blockquote fail. Son of a monkey. Damn you and your disappearing edit button, Cole!
Trinity
Isn’t it obviously that Sully has no standards.
demkat620
I haven’t been able to take him since he came back from his vacation to tell us that the birthers had a point.
He hyperventilates too much.
Tonal Crow
Moar lolcats, fewer tempest-in-teapot scratchfests with Sully, pleaz.
Les
“And you’ll get in trouble for calling them ‘transsexuals.'”
“Them?” Who “them?” Does he mean… transsexuals!? ‘Cuz I’m one of those “thems” and you won’t get in trouble for calling me one.
Could be Sully’s riffing on the “T” standing for Transgender in LGBT, and while all transsexuals are, in current parlance, transgender, not all transgender are transsexuals…
Joel
You pick your battles, and this isn’t a good one.
Chuck Butcher
Sully:
Oh horseshit, that is one of the purposes of the federal statute, to have effect where locals won’t. He knows this and denies it. I don’t read the asshole except when he’s linked to something I’m interested in, because he is a dishonest twit.
kommrade reproductive vigor
And here comes the walk back avec a side of whinge.
@gizmo: Whoops, now you’ve got the bis all pissed off.
But really, this illustrates why too specific language in a law can create loopholes that no one intended. Take for example the Civil Rights Act of 1964. It bars discrimination based on race, color, nationality and religion. It shouldn’t take much brain power to realize an attempt to list all of the races &c it was intended to cover would result in a pretty damn useless law.
The same applies here otherwise you’d get smart assed attorneys claiming their client didn’t beat up the victim because he was gay, but because he was a queer and queers aren’t covered by the law.
Terri
I can’t stand to read anything from that vacuous drama queen.
Crusty Dem
oy vey.
BJers are not dead – and may well mount what amounts to a fifth column.
8 years now and all I have for Sully is a simple “FUCK YOU!”
HumboldtBlue
Because you’re a disengenuous fucktard? Could that be the reason Andy? Because you’re an intellectual coward? Because you’re a caterwauling fumbledick? I could go on, but even a right wing tool like you, Andy, should be able to get the picture.
Midnight Marauder
It really is amazing how obtuse Sullivan can be on a regular basis. To call Cole’s post a “moronic gibe,” is to create a moronic gibe yourself by failing to grasp the essence and point of the post. It’s also an incredible display of blameshifting, as Sullivan–all day yesterday–absolutely destroyed the bill as one of the most ineffective, incompetent, unnecessary, excessive pieces of legislation in recent history. I mean, only a person who had little to no understanding of the legislation would write something as obviously and patently nonsensical as:
They’re asked to see themselves as “sad, passive victims of hate?” And you expect me to take this man seriously, as though he possessed some kind of intellectual heft? Surely, you jest. And what about the whole “those targeted for other reasons (having money, for example)” line? Correct me if I’m wrong, but is Sullivan really trying to link the anger with Wall Street as equal to the abominable actions covered by hate crime laws? Is this man so grossly ignorant that he would compare rage towards the individuals responsible for the near-collapse of the global economy with the Civil Rights Era in this country, and how such laws were used to combat the commonplace terrorism that was directed at blacks in this country? What a fucking putz, this guy.
You know, I still read the Dish on a somewhat regular basis, because I find the aggregated content to be interesting, and there’s the occasional “Oh, that’s right. I forgot the only reason I come to The Daily Dish anymore is to see if Sully wrote one of his ‘almost, but not quite’ redeeming posts about torture” moment. But the frequency of eye-rolling has exponentially increased since the last disastrous appearance by The Borg over there.
And we get it, Sully. You like South Park. You’re a big fucking fan of South Park, and they don’t like hate crime laws either, so that makes your fauxrage from the past few days perfectly excusable. We get it.
tomvox1
Republicans never do get sarcasm. Must be one of the reasons Mr. Cole switched parties. It’s frustrating when no one gets your preferred method of communication. ;)
On a tangent: Do you think Log Cabin Republicans like Sully boogie down at the fun Pride parades in NYC & Frisco or do they all stay home those days and pout about the evils of setting aside special days for minorities? Or maybe they don’t even get invited because they’re so damn boring and literal-minded…
Warren Terra
@Crusty Dem
Indeed. The memory of this particularly – but, sadly, not singularly – reprehensible statement of Sully’s is another thing that should never be dead.
Especially as, to the best of my knowledge, Sully has never apologized for the remark you adapt in even a general sense, and has almost certainly never apologized to at least one individual (Eric Alterman) that he slandered in connection with the remark.
Bad Horse's Filly
We are your minions. If this is a blog war, we are here to do your bidding (or so I’m told).
Paul L.
Looking up Sullivan on hate crime I found this bit of political correct apologizing and excuse making from Balloon Juice favorite David Neiwert
They did it out of love.
If you leave out the tying up and rape part.
mcc
As I think I noted in a thread some weeks back, this blog actually has photographs of a guacamole, bacon, lettuce and tomato sandwich. They do not seem to have noticed what they created.
Alas, this could not reasonably be generalized to a GLBTA sandwich, as guacamole and avocado in a single sandwich would obviously be redundant.
MBunge
Sullivan claims his readers overwhelmingly state they don’t dont want comments at his blog. I guess they think it classes the place up a little bit. But the lack of instant response/mockery that comments provide is what allows him to go completely off the deep end on occasion.
Mike
Skippy
I stopped reading Sully regularly after his inane call for us all to wear green in honor of the Iran protesters – how the fuck that was supposed to help them I have no idea – although I did admire him for covering the uprising when the MSM pretty much ignored it. His self-righteousness has gone through the roof this year.
However, he’s still great to read on torture, and I for one am glad that he’s making sure people don’t forget the crimes Cheney et al committed.
Blue Raven
@gbear:
I get to be bacon. This so rules.
celticdragon
Oh dear.
I missed out on the beggining of this because I was writting a paper for my African American history class.
This is more fun by several orders of magnitude.
As a transwoman, I will echo what others have siad and affirm that this really is a bid deal.
No more seeing killers of transwoman getting two years in jail for using the “gay panic” defense and cueing the jury that “she had it coming”…hopefully.
Also, John…
While “Transexual” is correct…it is generally better to use the term “transgendered” as it avoids all the nasty baggage that anything with “sexual” tends to lumped with. The first thing some folks think of when they hear “transexual” is Tim Currey in drag singing about “Transexual Transylvania” on the Rocky Horror Show.
The less we bring that up, the better…
kay
I don’t like Sullivan’s language.
“Roster of victims” is used to make a point here, I guess, but, really, when the laws are applied “victim” won’t be used to make an ideological point (hate crime legislation creates “victimhood”, blah, blah).
It’ll have a much different, concrete meaning. It’ll mean “victim”.
It’ll be in the police report. Along with a name.
MattR
@Paul L.: And your point is? Tying up, raping and murdering children is horrific. But that is true if the peretrators are gay or straight. Same for the victim. But the fact the victim was straight and the perpetartors were gay does not automatically turn it into a hate crime, just like a “traditonal” rape does not become a hate crime just because the victiim happens to be a lesbian. (Although it is nice to see that the right is at least being consistent in misunderstanding what the hate crimes legislation would do)
Laura W
He would not front page Little Bitsy.
He is dead to me.
Crusty Dem
@Warren Terra:
Part of me wants to like Sully, he can write, he’s can make a decent observation, but he’s got some of the biggest blind spots on the internet. Combined with his willingness to ignore or obfuscate criticism, he alternates between prescient and complete obtuse more than anyone I’ve read (although John Cole v1.0 was pretty close).
stormhit
@Warren Terra:
Alterman ruined any chance he had at an apology by taking what was still at least somewhat of a political statement by Sullivan and writing a response that was full of juvenile personal attacks. He doesn’t really deserve any pity.
The Bearded Blogger
@MBunge: Spot on. Instantaneous feedback is one reason why parts of the internet are saner than the MSM.
Armando
Agree with John Cole on this issue.
Bad Horse's Filly
Can’t we all just get along like Gates and Crowley?
Beer Summit part 2
beltane
@MBunge: I think Sully is afraid of trolls. The first clever troll to appear would completely send him over the edge.
Warren Terra
@ Stormhit #63
Eric Alterman bugs me, because I really don’t like him – every time I get a glimpse of his personality, it’s less impressive. But his book What Liberal Media was hugely important, especially as coming early as it did; his column in the Nation is generally quite good (and he is an important centrist voice in a magazine that for all its excellent reporting and advocacy work can tend to publish opinion pieces by people ranging from the extreme to the unhinged – i.e. the aptly named, if apparently mispronounced, Alexander Cockburn); and his blog is, so far as I know, my only source for the political ruminations of the excellent Charlie Pierce.
In any case, Alterman being a gigantic prick – and I think reasonable people can agree that he is one – doesn’t mean that Sullivan gets to make the truly vile allegations he made about Alterman and then to never withdraw them.
JasonF
On top of everything else that’s been said, Sully trots out the whole “special rights” canard. Pure nonsense. The bill says “it’s a federal crime to assault someone on account of their sexual orientation,” not “it’s a federal crime to assault someone on account of their sexual orientation except feel free to beat the crap out of those breeders.”
He could also acknowledge that the law is an attempt to remedy the special rights that particular criminals have, in that if you attack a gay person, in many jurisdictions you are much more likely to get a slap on the wrist than if you attack a straight person.
kay
@Bad Horse’s Filly:
I have to admit, I would never, ever have predicted that.
tc125231
You have obviously haven’t read enough Sullivan. On the whole, he is both pompous and highly self-absorbed, notwithstanding the fact that he is smart.
Obtuseness is an inevitable consequence of these traits.
I reached my life-time Sullivan quota about a year ago, when it became obvious that he could re-post moronic Mickey Kaus comments about healthcare, or argue that 45,000 people dying each year were the “price of freedom”. Some of the Mickey Kaus quotes were so dumb they reminded me of the old Mel Brooks — Carl Reiner Nazi routine: “–What do they have against us anyway? That we sent a few people to camps? You send your kids to camps, don’t you?”
Nonetheless, these cross-blog flame wars are also stupid. I hope Cole lets it drop.
valdivia
this is a totally OT and petty point but a die hard twilight fan today made me realize Holy Sarah Rouge Book is dropping at the same time that the Twilight Saga takes over the universe. I find it sort of delicious to think that she will be competing for air time with the tween sensation. Imagine the tv shows
“and coming up after the break Sarah Palin’s vision of Americas future and does Robert Pattinson wear boxers or briefs?”
Perfect.
Warren Terra
@ Bad Horse’s Filly, #66
That story was heartwarming – though of the comments I read (and I only read the first few) by far my favorite was on by a comenter styling themselves nomobull, which I reproduce in its entirety:
Skippy
Incidentally, his obsession with Sarah Palin is getting a little creepy. I loathe the woman as much as anyone, but unlike Sullivan I don’t buy into the conspiracy theory about Trig being Bristol’s kid, or make her a constant topic of discussion (as he does at the Dish).
Now he’s lambasting Oprah for being too soft on her before the scheduled interview’s even taken place. If he’s seriously expecting Oprah to ask hardball questions of a guest he is seriously losing his mind.
Deschanel
Sometimes when people are high in the marihooana, they can be oversensitive, and sardonic rhetorical quips like Cole’s are taken literally, bumming their stone. Also, they spell things like “exercize”.
Sully is really..not humorless, he just has a godawful sense of humor. Endless paeans to South Park, a show that is visually ugly and pretty poor comedy, imho. I love irreverent, non-PC humor as much as the next gay- and believe me, gays know irreverent humor . I think South Park is meanspirited and juvenile, and Andy’s constant quoting of it approvingly, as if it were some pop expression of his Tory philosophy, seems just immature and an expression of awful taste in comedy . Endless mockery of “political correctness” is good enough for him!
That he didn’t get Cole’s wry comic intent, and took it literally, is just evidence of a really spoilt little boy, used to lecturing and not listening. He never shuts up about he’s a glorious blog pioneer, but his disingenuous refusal to allow comments- my readers don’t want it!- is just a crock. He has at least two interns who could screen comments, every other blogger allows them, but Little Lord Sullivan finds it unseemly.
joes527
@Skippy:
Getting creepy? Getting creepy? That train left the station as soon as he started with the uterine verification jag.
Anyway, Sully’s take is so last year. The current totally-made-up-rumour is that Trig is Sarah’s love child with Levi.
Svensker
@HumboldtBlue:
I like that one. It has a sort of Oscar Wilde-ish edge, which is appropriate, as well.
Sully gets his knickers all bunched up purdy reg’lar. Wonder how he’d react to being called a fifth columnist traitor caterwauling fumbledick?
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
Or what? It’s nice of BTD to come on in and tell everyone what to think or do but without a threat of some sort it sounds pretty weak.
Just in case it’s necessary, ;)
The Grand Panjandrum
@Skippy:
The only time I remember reading about Oprah asking some tough questions was when it was revealed that someone had basically made up all the shit he wrote in his book about being a drug addict. IIRC she put the book on her must read list and recommended it to her audience so it wasn’t about having the guy fess up for lying so much as it was about her being duped and publicly embarrassed.
But I do like Sullivan’s blog so long as he isn’t writing about Palin, the Bell Curve, or trying to write about something that requires him to deal with numberical data that requires a bit of 8th grade math to understand.
Demo Woman
How fun. Blog wars. Who would have thought that Sully would be so insecure that he had to go after the Master.
If Sully took the time to actually analyze the situation, he would have commended the President’s signing of the hate crime legislation and apologize for his earlier post.
Max
Not to stray OT, but am I the only one who thinks that Levi is kinda hawt, in a “pretty dumb, but probably a good shag” type of way?
The Grand Panjandrum
@The Grand Panjandrum: Requiring minds want to know. Sheesh.
Keith G
I just got finished watching coverage of Presidents Obama’s trip to Dover [Wipes tears]:
1) I am so proud I voted for this man
2)He better get us out of Afghanistan asap (as per Thomas Friedman who today write with total clarity)
The Grand Panjandrum
@Demo Woman: The only time he apologizes for being wrong is after a thousand or more American troops are dead. Why do you think he’s so beloved by Bill Maher? Neither one of them has ever been wrong, although they were, each of them, once mistaken.
Crazy Kale Lady
@Max: Sounds like you missed the Slow on the Uptake thread there, Max?
And BTW, KALE FTW!
beltane
@Max: He’s a good looking kid, but would be more likely that Trig is Sarah’s child with Bill Kristol. Not that either scenario is anything approaching likely.
Skippy
It’s weird considering Sully’s a conservative, but he’s behaving exactly like the more hysterical lefty bloggers who’re raising holy hell because Obama hasn’t done absolutely everything he promised in the first year of his presidency.
If I had a time machine, I would send all of them back to August 2005 to remind them what it’s like to have a president who really does do fuck all for the people.
Zuzu's Petals
@gizmo:
Even if one argues that the word “gay” includes lesbians, it doesn’t include bisexuals. Or transgendered persons.
Martin
Oprah protects the Oprah brand pretty aggressively. Outside of that, not her problem.
bluemount
Sullivan has regularly asked whether his readers would like a comments section and they have said no. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t get comments. I’m sure he’ll get some comments about these comments.
He seems to do a job airing representative posts that agree or disagree or provide an interesting perspective on his ideas/positions/rants. For me, I like that because it saves time having to read through the comments section to get to the interesting comments.
That said, sometimes I want to read comments to get an idea of the mood of the audience, the breadth of disagreement or agreement, clever/funny responses, etc.
Max
@Crazy Kale Lady: Indeed I did.
I may have to checkout the Playgirl site once he makes he debut.
J. Michael Neal
The other thing that must be remembered about Sullivan, and it relates to his complete inability to grasp that The Bell Curve is worthless trash, is that his ability with math ends as soon as he runs out of fingers. The man is functionally innumerate. He even admits this, but fails to realize that he should never, ever comment on anything related to numbers. When reading anything by him, if a mathematical argument, even one as simple as 2 + 2, comes up, stop reading and move on, because he’s out of his depth.
Tattoosydney
@Demo Woman:
Now that’s where your idea runs into trouble. I like reading Sully for the light content (windows, mental health breaks etc), but he’s fundamentally a whiny arsed baby, whose posts are 97% reactive, who refuses to allow actual real time feedback (other than carefully selected dissenting emails), and whose alleged principles all fall away when they might in any way impact adversely on Andrew.
Blow it out your arse, Andrew.
(urgh. Bad image. Now I have to go and wash my brain out with bleach)
Maude
@The Grand Panjandrum: 79
James Frey. The thing was the book had first been a novel and then sold as non fiction. That info wasn’t hidden. Oprah could have had her staff check that one out. Frey did get a novel published this year.
Tattoosydney
@Max:
Hell no. Yum.
Skippy
@beltane:
Nah. It’s obvious that Trig’s the result of one of Rich Lowry’s ‘starbursts’.
gizmo
Strange…. I live in a town full of gay people, and hereabouts “gay” applies to both sexes. Maybe it’s a regional thing….?
Chief Angry Cloud
I stopped caring about what Sullivan says when he quit blogging in.. oh was it early 2005 or so? Turns out he’s such a quitter that he quit quitting.
The Grand Panjandrum
MBunge
“I think South Park is meanspirited and juvenile”
True, but it’s also frickin’ brilliant. Stuff like doing a satire on how the threat of terrorism has taken over the public imagination by having actual terrorists take over Imaginationland is just light years beyond what anyone else is doing.
Mike
Mnemosyne
@Paul L.:
Great, do we finally get to prosecute serial killers for hate crimes against women now? Sociologists and criminologists have known for years that hatred of women is what motivates them. Or is it perfectly fine for a straight man to torture and murder a woman or child and only horrible if a gay person dares to do the same?
Laura W
She canceled Bitsy’s appearance at the last minute. She waffled just like Obama.
She, too, is dead to me.
Vincent
The thing about Sullivan is when he’s right he’s really right but when he’s wrong he’s really wrong. He’s a stubborn guy which is good most of the time on subjects like torture and Bush admin crimes but this trait makes him a dick when he doubles down instead of admitting he’s wrong on things like Palin.
But I think his mind is capable of being changed. He’s come around on health reform as being necessary to correct a moral problem even if he has quibbles with how reform is to be implemented. His readers disagree with him all the time, hence the ‘dissents of the day.’ So it’s not like he’s being shielded from criticism.
So I still read his blog even when I can’t stand him because even though he can be as kooky as other conservatives I can’t help but think that there’s a reasonable person underneath his ego and obtuseness.
In other words, I like reasonable Sullivan. Crazy Sullivan, not so much.
MattR
@MBunge: I loved the one where they revealed that the 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists were all actually part of a giant government conspiracy. And I thought the monologue by Stan’s father about marijuana was probably the most balanced, well reasoned, closest to the truth statement on the pros and cons of the drug I have heard. Granted, the other thread running through that episode was Cartman setting up a revenge business where he smeared poo on the walls of his targets’ houses.
MikeJ
It must have change a lot since I watched one or two eps. Mind you, it doesn’t bother me if other people like it. I like plenty of stupid things myself. I just don’t find it funny. Too forced, too much “ooh, look at us, we’re being transgressive.”
The Grand Panjandrum
@Laura W: What about Lawrence O’Donnell? Surely he would have come riding to her rescue in a smartly tailored Armani suit? He seems like that kind of guy, no?
(Sorry I couldn’t resist bringing him into this … for some unknown reason.)
freelancer
@Keith G:
Eveyrbody ha a tyop, but your timing is jsut ihlarious.
Xenos
@Paul L.: Have you ever read the federal hate crimes statute? The crime you describe does not fit within that statute. It is heinous, but as a legal matter, not a hate crime.
But I am not going to do your homework for you. Go look up the damn thing, read it, and think about whether the crime is prosecutable as a hate crime. Come on back with a coherent argument, with cites, please.
handy
@MBunge:
I liked how they addressed the whole Mohammed controversy, supposedly taking on the issue of free speech, but in actuality to cap on Family Guy and how it uses pop culture references as a crutch for its humor. That was actually frickin’ brilliant.
R-Jud
@MikeJ:
I have never been able to watch it because the characters’ voices drive me fucking nuts. It’s worse than the whiny screamy girls in anime.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
comrade scott's agenda of rage
Exactly. The sooner his web hit rate dries up to nothing, the sooner he’ll be gone.
Keith G
@freelancer: Well Free, sorry I dropped the ‘s’. I’ll try harder next time.
Friedman reminds me of Sully: Quite often wrong but occasionally able to put a cogent argument together. Could be the stopped clock syndrome, I guess.
geg6
I used to regularly send emails to Sully because I naively believed that he meant that he wanted feedback and the readers actually didn’t want comments. But after a bunch of sincere efforts to engage him on the misogyny of the Catholic Church and his own hypocrisy on the Church’s fallability in regard to gays but not on women’s reproductive rights that weren’t ever addressed on the blog (not that I needed that). What really pissed me off was there was not even a form email sent back to acknowledge my comment. Hell, even congresscritters (who I used to think the most arrogant people in the world) acknowledge and surprisingly often send back substantive replies. I have since come to the conclusion that Andrew really doesn’t want any back and forth with anyone but himself. And when someone he admires criticizes him, he goes ballistic. And he obviously admires Cole because he references him all the time. And now he’s decided that he wants a slapfest with him. Whatever. Cole will always, in my eyes, be a thousand times the man he is. Cole can reflect on what he says and admit a mistake. He does it with grace and intelligence. Sully is a great writer, but he is never reflective or graceful in error. And that makes him someone whose pronouncements have little impact with me, agree or disagree.
Anne Laurie
Not to be a downer, but does Sullivan actually read Balloon Juice? Or does he just read the carefully-selected clips that his interns pick & print out for him?
Reads more like a “let’s you’n’him fight” scenario to me, and we all know Andrew does not pick his assistants for their writing skills, or their reality-based grasp of politics.
Laura W
@The Grand Panjandrum:
To make me giggle and happy and all warm squishy fuzzy inside, is why.
I hope hope hope he’s sitting in for KO again tonight.
freelancer
@Keith G:
Eh, kinda, except Sully’s a good writer. Friedman has no sense of imagery or metaphor, and his attempts to overcompensate for that are just abysmal.
Mnemosyne
@Xenos:
His attempted argument is that only white/straight people get charged with hate crimes and that hate crime charges are never brought against people for attacking white or straight people for being white or straight.
Of course, even the merest glance at the FBI’s Uniform Crime Statistics would prove him wrong since “anti-white” bias is the #2 racially based hate crime charge, which is why he has to drag sensationalistic cases into the “argument.”
geg6
Count me in with those who find nothing funny, smart, or worth a minute of my time in South Park. Stupidest and most amateurish shit I’ve ever wasted a half hour on. I’ve concluded that it’s one of those things like Jim Carrey or Adam Sandler comedies. Men like them because it takes them back to being 12 year olds. Don’t get it; don’t want to. OTOH, Monty Python are geniuses. Trey Parker and whatever the other guy’s name is? Libertarians, both of them. I rest my case.
General Winfield Stuck
@The Grand Panjandrum:
This says it all.
CalD
Oh cool! A blog-fight.
Martin
Sorry to derail, but we need to get a substantive discussion going now:
FTFY or FTFY? Discuss among yourselves.
kommrade reproductive vigor
A story about an evil blood-sucking critter from hell goes head-to-head with a story about young love.
freelancer
@Martin:
I disagree.
FTFY!
J. Michael Neal
When South Park gets something right, they hit it out of the park. The early episode with the prize fight between Jesus and Satan was brilliant. Unfortunately, this covers about one episode in ten, and it’s not worth sitting through the crap.
“I can’t believe Satan would throw the fight!”
Keith G
@freelancer: I don’t disagree. Now days, the only time I read either one is after referal.
geg6
OT, but who is this Michelle Bernard dimwit? I have never heard of her or seen her other than on Tweety and I’ve never heard anyone reference her as an expert on anything. And every word out of her mouth is some of the stupidest, most clueless libertarian drivel I’ve evr heard. Why is she on my teevee? I’d much rather see Laura W., who always has pearls of wisdom, especially in regard to wine. For which I’d like some advice, if we’d ever get an open thread.
MikeJ
@geg6: I myself have many fine whines I’ve been saving for an open thread. For now I’ll simply say that in addition to the fucking Yankees, fuck Comcast. Possibly the only entity to come close to the Yankees in evilosity. Evilitude. Whatever.
valdivia
@kommrade reproductive vigor:
LOL. The parallels, puns, and fun will be endless I tell you. I am thinking we could even have a reader guessing contest–New Moon Twilight Interview question or Sarah Palin interview question. I bet you those will not be so different and the movie cast will probably answers their questions better.
geg6
Mike J.: I’m with you, dude. FTFY and FFC (fuck fucking Comcast).
Laura W
@geg6:
Your timing is scary frightening, Sister Friend. I was just that second hitting SEND on a wine-related email to a wine loving friend asking his opinion on some wines.
And Larry O’D is on Countdown!
And, @J. Michael Neal: Where the HELL have you been?
valdivia
@geg6:
She heads a fake grassroots female republican group that is pro life and all sorts of retrograde. I think TPM had a profile of her not so long ago (about a year). Will scrounge the internets for it and link.
General Winfield Stuck
@geg6:
And Kale. And, unfortunately, The HeeBee Bee Jees.
valdivia
@geg6:
read this about Bernanrd but be ready to gag.
valdivia
@geg6:
one more about Bernanrd
Violet
@Laura W:
Ditto.
@Max:
You are not the only one.
Amanda in the South Bay
Fuck, every time JC posts something about Sully and gay rights there’s already a bazillion posts by the time I catch up to it.
Sully has a pretty checkered past with regards to trans rights. I remember well him bitching about ENDA in the fall of 2007, when Barney Frank and Co. fucked us trans people over by excluding gender identity from ENDA which never made it to the Senate. Sully was excited, and didn’t seem to give two shits about us, and linked to assholes like John Aravosis who couldnt grasp what possible relationship trans people had to the LGB (t) rights movement. Don’t even get me started about his fetish for taking testosterone and thinking that everyone should…
I’m one of those queer rights activists who is not so hot on hate crime laws (see the Sylvia Rivera Law Project in New York) but Sully’s bitching practically forces me to go the other way.
freelancer
@Violet:
I have no radar for guys, but have you two seen Extract?
Crazy Kale Lady
@General Winfield Stuck:
I linked one Babs/Barry heartfelt duet for a very mysterious and odd occasional commenter. No one asked you to click through. It was not meant for your eyes.
I have nothing to be guilty for.
geg6
Laura W @131: Yay! The mind meld worked! I need 2 bottles for a fine dining experience tomorrow night. First, the pickings are slim here in PA, so it gets tough with recommendations. But…I need a white and a red. White to go with a seafood appetizer and salad courses and a red for the filet mignon entree. I’m not a white fan, but John loves chardonnay. I don’t like acidy or citrus. I’m more of an oak fan. The red needs to be robust, but not as robust as a caberbet. Several wineries for each would be best as (I think I mentioned) our state does not give us a wide variety of choices. Oh, and I like to stay well under $20 a bottle. Any ideas?
Violet
@freelancer:
No, I haven’t. Is it good? That’s the one with Jason Bateman and Ben Affleck (with crazy hair), right?
J. Michael Neal
Reading SEC regulations and the legislation they are based upon, writing papers on said readings, and filling out various accounting firms’ checklists for to TiVo’s filings in regards to said regulations. It’s an exciting life I lead; the adrenaline rush of plowing through the 1934 Securities and Exchange Act would be too much for most people. Most nights, I’m too exhausted from the thrills to read BJ, let alone comment.
It’s so exciting that I’m seriously considering finding a PhD program so that I can keep doing it.
Amanda in the South Bay
Since this has turned into a general Sully bashing…
When I got reclassed as an interrogator and was sent to DLI to learn Korean, I kept a copy of The New Republic that had a front page story about torture that he wrote. I looked up to him and thought he had a lot of good things to say. Now? Well, I think he’s…too annoying to read, alas.
I also think he’s a hypocrite for getting married in a state where same sex marriage was introduced via the highest court in the state, whereas he seems to think that in other states its the wrong way to go because of Michael Oakeshott or Edmund Fucking Burke or what the fuck ever.
General Winfield Stuck
@Crazy Kale Lady:
I have no defense and will offer none, The prosecution withdraws the charges your honor. :)
Violet
@geg6:
I’m a big fan of Ferrari-Carano Fume Blanc, for the white. I went to the winery years ago and it was just so good. I think that was before it became sort of well known. Perhaps it’s a cliche now, I don’t know. But a few years ago I went to the winery again and it was just as good as I remembered.
RedKitten
The South Park movie was actually pretty spot-on. If you ignored the juvenile side plots, they actually had a very pointed message about how parents in our society are so worried about kids hearing profanity, but are completely blind to violence. I won’t give away the plot, but it was actually really well done.
Well, one-quarter of the Voltron is swaddled, in his crib and is sleeping peacefully, so if Sullivan wants to bring it, he’ll need to wait until after 7am.
BombIranForChrist
Sully’s blog is one giant mirror that he preens in front of everyday. When he isn’t hocking his book, he’s launching into long, navel-gazing ruminations of Sulliness, like a drunk guy on a subway reciting his life story to you on the way home from work. It’s too much to expect him to think of anyone outside his earholes.
Crazy Kale Lady
@geg6: What Violet said. I’m so sorry that I am letting you down here. I don’t do Chard, and I do not do oak. Especially over-oaked CA Chards that taste like Yankee Doodle Whatever Vanilla candles have been fermenting in the tanks along with the grapes and several 2x4s. I’m a Stainless Steel Fermentation kind of girl on all of my whites (ie, fruit-forward, clean, crisp acids, sharp finish.) If you can possibly put your oak love aside and go for a Fume/Sauvignon Blanc, there are so many in your price range to choose from (CA, I mean – look for Russian River or Alexander Valley) that would pair beautifully with your first courses. It’s really hard to start naming wineries without knowing what you have access to, but I know your selections suck ass up there.
On the red I’d go for a Shiraz/Syrah something something blend. Pinot would be too light. You know what? As I recall, Steeplejack asked a similar question a while back on behalf of his brother and got some really good input from several wine knowledgeable commenters. Maybe he, or you, or someone, could dig out that thread? I recall thinking that a lot of the suggestions were very sound.
Violet
@Crazy Kale Lady:
Yeah, I think a Shiraz/Syrah is always a good bed. My parents have had good luck at Costco with wine. No, seriously. They have some variety they serve all the time and everyone is happy with it. I can’t remember what it is – I think it’s a Merlot – but it’s from Costco.
Chad N Freude
A subtle and sophisticated metaphor for the organizations that put out false information about progressive proposals at the behest of anti-progressive political and financial interests.
I love over-interpretation as much as I love South Park.
Martin
We were fortunate to be on the pass-around chain for the original South Park Christmas video back in 95 or so (a friend of ours was a director for Melrose Place – if you think ‘who you know’ doesn’t matter, you’re wrong). It was the funniest damn thing we had seen in a while and we eagerly awaited the show when we heard that Comedy Central signed them up.
If you haven’t seen the video (it’s about 5 minutes) it’s worth seeing where they started.
Chad N Freude
@geg6: Oh, you poor benighted soul. I think it’s the silly juvenile humor and amateurish style that has let them get away with pushing the social satire envelope on primetimeTV. And my inner 12-year-old sniggers like made when I watch it.
RedKitten
@geg6:
Tim F. is very well-versed on wine, so hopefully he’ll chime in. But I agree with Crazy Kale Lady on all of those recommendations.
And Chardonnay? No offense intended, but…blech. It’s one of those wines that, if you drink too much of it even ONCE, you never, ever want to drink it again.
geg6
Laura W and Violet: Thanks for the suggestions. I find citrusy chards give me heartburn for some reason. And I just always tend to like more robust wines, red or white. I agree that pinot is probably not right. John has wine tastes closer to yours, Laura. So I’ll probably go with a syrah for the red. Ever try any of Coppola’s wines? They always seem to have those.
Crazy Kale Lady
@geg6:
Years it’s been, but that is a great idea for the red blend, at least. Try whatever Rosso they have in stock and see if you like it. Every vintage I tried I liked.
His white Bianco blend is too sweet for me, but a quick google shows he’s now doing a Pinot Grigio under this label which might be perfect for you guys, as long as it’s not too acidic for you (on the grapefruit side of the PG acid scale, which kills me too!)
I think that’s a great idea, geg6. If you have time to purchase whatever they have from Coppola and test drive them you will probably find at least two you can live with.
Leelee for Obama
@Crazy Kale Lady: Back in the day when I was a Wine Captain, the Aussie Cabernet/Shiraz was the new best wine ever. Penfolds was my favorite label. I loved it and it went with anything with body-the Fume you mentioned was my default white-or the Santa Margherita Pinot Grigio if they wanted something a bit lighter. I like the smokiness of the Fume myself, goes great with the deeper flavors in food. I like an oaky Chardonnay as a sipping wine-or something with lots of mushrooms!
Just my 2 cents.
geg6
RedKitten: Seriously, if it was up to me, we’d not have any whites (excepting champagne, of course). I kinda feel that they all suck. But John hates, hates, hates pinot grigios and gewurtztraminers and every other white I’ve chosen except an oaky chard I got a few weeks ago, so chardonnay it is.
RedKitten
@geg6: Yeah, I’m more like you in that aspect. I definitely prefer reds, but if I’m going to drink white, I want a gewurtztraminer or a riesling — something nice and dry and crisp.
John can come join my family — the way we suck back wine, he could have the chardonnay all to himself, and we’d all each have our own bottle of whatever we like.
bago
Rg@Chad N Freude: Those Chads won’t Freude themselves. More on topic, the episodes using fox as a proxy for Comedy Central in the same episode in real time was brilliant. Real time scripting for the win.
J. Michael Neal
A bottle of red for you, a bottle of white for John, and a bottle of bourbon for me.
Xenos
@geg6: The Coppola Claret is outstanding, in case you have not tried it.
Anybody remember Inglenook? They used to sell Chablis in a wide-mouth carafe with a jelly jar lid sealing the top – a real 1970s memory for me. That was the winery Coppola bought and rebuilt. Amazing was some cash, passion, and a couple decades can do.
handy
Re: SP, I think at its best it does message art well–lots of nuance, irony, and provocative questions. But Parker and Stone don’t always hit one out of the park. As much as I thought Team America worked as toilet humor, I thought they really squandered a chance to poke a little more fun at jingoism and instead settled for the “yeah libs are crazy, intrustworthy too.” Kinda weak, but damn, who else could pull off an extended and explicit love making scene between two puppets? Who, I ask you!
Chuck Butcher
@Max:
I sure don’t know anything about that, but he is evidently potent enough to knock up a Palin
Calouste
@Chuck Butcher:
Sully:
Oh horseshit, that is one of the purposes of the federal statute, to have effect where locals won’t. He knows this and denies it. I don’t read the asshole except when he’s linked to something I’m interested in, because he is a dishonest twit.
I don’t think we have heard Sully complaining that he didn’t get kicked out of the country when he was busted with drugs, like what would probably happen if he wasn’t a rich, white, wellknown conservative commentator.
Oh, wait, he’s a conservative. He does believe in equality under law, he just thinks that law only apply to the little people and not the big people like him.
slag
Gotta come down on Cole’s side on this one. Which is kind of a bummer because I find just the idea of siding with Sullivan somewhat tantalizing. It’s like the forbidden fruit. But I just can’t bring myself to eat it. Not this time anyway.
celticdragon
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Hey Amanda :)
Mnemosyne
For some reason, “Fat Butt and Pancake Head” always sends me into hysterics, probably because they do head into some genuinely shocking territory. Pretty much any episode where the A story is Cartman’s is funny, because he’s a horrible person.
Wile E. Quixote
Can we get Sullivan’s ass deported back to Blighty? Seriously, we don’t need any more Tory fuckheads in the USA, even if they are huge fans of the Pet Shop Boys. We already have John Derbyshire and he’s enough thank you.
Steeplejack
@geg6:
What I ended up recommending to my brother, after consultation with the big brains at Balloon Juice, was the Hedges CMS White (a blend of Chardonnay, Marsanne and Sauvignon Blanc), the Ferrari-Carano Fumé Blanc and the Coppola Claret. The last one was not mentioned here then, but I see that it has gotten some love today. A sturdy wine that can do double duty as everyday table wine (well, not quite every day) or “friends for dinner” fare.
Did my brother go with any of those recommendations? No. However, right now I am finishing up a bottle of the Root:1 Cabernet Sauvignon that he went with, and which he had left over in abundance. There may have been some arm-twisting or undue influence from the caterer. Or the overage may be the result of the family dogma that any party problem can be solved with sufficient application of money and liquor, not necessarily in that order. Always better to have leftovers than, horrors, not enough.
K.
Love your blog, but Obama really doesn’t care about gay rights.
K.
Nitpick it all you want. Obama really doesn’t care about gay rights. At least, not in comparison to anything else worth doing.
K.
And really, let’s be honest: neither do you.
RememberNovember
AW is slowly going from a center-right voice of reason to a wingtard Galtian primadonna. Doesn’t he realize the irony of his situation? If not for progressive changes in the law, he’d still be hiding his public ID in the closet. Sure he’d still be commentating, but he wouldn’t be as “out” about himself. Waaaagh Obama didn’t break out into a musical number ( ie the Producers “Keep it gay, keep it gay, keep it gaaaaaaaaay!)
clownass. I used to think he had something to say- then he had a jacktard sub in for him and he put skis and a leather jacket on.
slippy
Ech. I am not even sure why I’m commenting in this section. I’ve read Sullivan and I think he’s an assclown. He writes for the Atlantic, which as far as I can tell is funded specifically for the purpose of giving assclowns who would never have a chance of being taken seriously a megaphone. Take away his wingnut welfare and he’s just some fucktard with an opinion — we’ve all got one, Andrew. Yours is not more special than mine.
Raoul
I posted: “JCole: I got your back” and this was deleted? People got some thin skin. Unbelievable.
Raoul
Nevermind-it wasn’t.
Josh E.
@K.:
Did you ask him?