Chunky David Brooks has a piece about Joe Ratzinger’s plan to cherry-pick disaffected wingers from the Anglican church as reinforcements for the coming holy war against Islam:
There are an awful lot of Anglicans, in England and Africa alike, who would prefer a leader who takes Benedict’s approach to the Islamic challenge. Now they can have one, if they want him.
This could be the real significance of last week’s invitation. What’s being interpreted, for now, as an intra-Christian skirmish may eventually be remembered as the first step toward a united Anglican-Catholic front — not against liberalism or atheism, but against Christianity’s most enduring and impressive foe.
I have to admit that I don’t understand in what ways Islam is a foe of Christianity. I guess the idea is that there are people out there would be Christians if they weren’t Muslims? Is it some kind of a recruitment battle? And, if so, how would uniting the Anglican Church and the Catholic church help with this. I thought part of the appeal of Islam is that it is schismatic enough to present ample opportunity for intra-Islamic skirmishes. But even if I’m wrong about that, seriously, what would a united Anglican-Catholic front accomplish in this holy war that the two churches couldn’t accomplish separately?
I’ve seen other pieces criticizing Douthat’s piece for being Crusadesque, but no one seems able to explain what form this Crusade will take and why it requires coordinated action among Christian Churches. What the hell is he talking about?
Scott
not against liberalism or atheism, but against Christianity’s most enduring and impressive foe.
Butt sex?
Oh, ‘scuse me, non-priest-initiated butt sex.
low-tech cyclist
Chunky David Brooks has a piece about Joe Ratzinger’s plan
I prefer to think of him as Pope Joey the Rat.
Liz
Recruitment battle-absolutely. Christians have been doing it since the beginning of, well, Christianity.
cleek
i propose that anyone who wants to fight a religious war get together somewhere out of the way, antarctica maybe, and have at it.
that way, those of us who want no part in your bullshit religious war won’t get killed by any stray bombs.
Cain
And their weapons would be what? Two wetsuits and a dlldo?
cain
NY Texan
I’m on your side DougJ – Chunky David Brooks is an awesome tag.
BFR
I’m not sure you can call it Crusadesque when he’s actually calling it a crusade.
licensed to kill time
I’ll take recruitment battle for $100, Alex.
ed
You mean the Nazi Pope?
What? What?? He is.
NY Texan
Oh whoops, thought low-tech cyclist‘s comment was against Chunky David Brooks. Reading too fast is bad.
Still approve of the tag.
Sentient Puddle
It’s easy. Islam is not Christianity. QED.
Joel
I think the King of England needs to decapitate a few more people to set everyone straight.
gnomedad
What I want to know: Can a R.C. priest convert to Anglicanism, get married, and then come back?
MattM
Love the title.
Paul in KY
Colbert did a piece about this the other night. Did y’all see the picture he put up of Pope Palpatine? Man, all he was missing was the Jedi hood n cape.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
In the conservative Christian mind Christians were just walking down the street minding their own business when all of a sudden out of nowhere 9/11 happened. Hence, Islamic extremism is the worst thing in the world. Hence, Islam itself is worse than Christianity since it allows for extremism. That’s the logical trail as near as I can follow it.
Chuck Butcher
Considering the source – I’d call it stupidity and let it go at that.
blahblahblah
JUST IN: The Pope has been recruited from the Isle of Doom and will join forces with the Baptist and Anglican Christian Superfriends to do battle with a foe greater than any they have faced before! Now, united, they stand firm against MUSLIM OVERLORDS OF PERSIA AND ARABIA! Watch as the Christian Superfriends use their powers for good, justice, and the American way while obliterating evil in their path! Soon, the people of the Middle East will rejoice in Christian brotherhood after the fall of their horrible oppressors at the hands of God!
Christian Superfriends power…. ACTIVATE!
bago
This is just a cover to mask the bleeding pomegranate dicklips of idiocy fostered by the actual David Brooks Yesterday.
martha
Of course what his chunkiness leaves out of his piece is the real reason why most Episcopalians–at least in North America–won’t join the Catholic Church: they approve of letting those terrible women and gay people people serve the congregations. The horror of it all…
Cain
You’d think that when another religion worships the same God as they do that they could all get along. That sillly Gabriel, how dare he go off and talk to some dirty dude from the desert and tell them go off and conquer stuff.
Also, they are still mad that the Moors came over and conquered them and gave us hot spanish women.
cain
geg6
This is neo-conism by another name and in a much more inflammatory incarnation.
This all about a new Crusade. This frightens me more than almost anything else I’ve seen in the last 30 years. And, smug as it may seem, it’s exactly what I feared when that nutcase Ratzinger was installed. It emboldens assholes in both religions. Ross Douchehat should be taken out for suggesting such shit.
Zifnab25
13
gnomedad
What I want to know: Can a R.C. priest convert to Anglicanism, get married, and then come back?
No. You’re not allowed to marry 8-year old boys in England.
slag
Shorter Chunky David Brooks: Dear Islamo-fascists, The Christo-fascists will see your jihad and raise you a crusade. And then we’ll party down like it’s 1099!
Honestly, I don’t understand any of it. As they say about tradition: Just because you’ve always done it that way doesn’t mean it’s not incredibly stupid.
DanF
This is not simply about recruitment numbers. A too-large percentage of people think that there is an active agenda to force Islam upon America. Kill them there before the Islamic hoards have occupied your favorite Starbucks. They are f-in’ nuts. You can not underestimate how little they understand about what is possible.
Ross used the word “foe”; not “competitor”, “opponent”, or “rival”, but “foe” – an enemy. He meant what he said, and he said what he meant; A Douthat is crazy, one-hundred percent.
gonzone
What good is a religion if you can’t get your war/crusade on?
mellens
It’s not that they think this battle requires collaboration between churches – after all, poaching members is a funny way to collaborate with someone. It’s that, in their universe, Islam is attacking Civilization As We Know It, and the Anglican church isn’t planning on fighting back.
Comrade Dread
Depending upon the region or country (especially in Africa and Asia), minority Christian communities often find themselves under attack by Muslim governments, militias, and mobs, and denied basic human rights and/or forced to convert under threat of harm.
It should be noted that this is done in violation of the Islamic injunction to tolerate Jews and Christians, and may (depending on the region) be more about underlying tribal conflicts.
And of course, the radical Islamic imams and groups that support or purport global jihad are a foe of us all. And if the form of ‘battle’ is an intellectual one between competing ideas, rather than a hyped up nonsensical invasion of another country, then I say let the Pope give it a go.
ramster
The Hindu-Jew alliance is secretly behind this, waiting to take over in the aftermath of the Christians and Muslims slaughtering each other…bwa ha ha!
geg6
@Comrade Dread:
You obviously not aware of all Catholic traditions. They’ve never won an intellectual battle in their history. They are all about force and always have been.
This is bad shit. Very bad shit.
licensed to kill time
@bago: Well, “bleeding pomegranate dicklips of idiocy” just made my day! Thanks for the snicker/snort.
I don’t know what I would do without BJ to help me wade through the daily dicklippishness.
SteveinSC
Wait, this would be more better by equating equals if the Chunky David Brooks were referring to the Chunky-monkey Pope, i.e., the Right Reverend Johannus Hagee.
Cain
@ramster:
I for one welcome our jewish hindu overlords.
cain
Garrigus Carraig
He’s just stupid. He’s twisting this Papal offer to suit his own narrative, in ignorance of the actual issues.
And Islam & Christianity haven’t been foes at the global level since the Turks were rolled back in Europe to their current position, which I think was 1923. All Muslim/Christian conflict since then has been local (Philippines, Indonesia, Nigeria, former Yugoslavia, &c.).
He’s really in-your-face stupid.
Brick Oven Bill
Re: Is it some kind of a recruitment battle?
No. It more of a Battle of Belief Systems.
The best person to explain this is Fjordman, a Norwegian, affected by immigration. In my opinion, it boils down to the fact that Christianity is a feminine religion, and Islam is a masculine religion. Fjordman’s opinions can be found by navigating from the link below:
What are Islam’s Weak Points?
Fjordman is very smart. I really recommend taking the time to consider his work.
When the British encountered the Arabs, the Arabs largely had scimitars, not rifles. This explains why a friend who has more recently been over there says that Iraqi marksmanship is typically spray and pray.
So Christianity will win this one, at least at first. But I believe that Islam may prevail in the end. I believe that the far right may adopt a modified version of Islam. This is already happening in Germany. Then that would be that.
DougJ
I believe that the far right may adopt a modified version of Islam.
Isn’t Islam itself a modified form of Christianity? I thought that was almost explicit in Mohammed’s teachings.
bobbo
This is just sickening. The unavoidable implication is that we need more Wars on Brown People. Is the idea that if he just doesn’t explicitly mention bombs, then people will think he wants to built a “united front” against the Islamic “foe” in some sort of battle of strongly wordered think pieces?
Dollared
I’m sure Russ and his friends remember how good we all felt after that big win at Lepanto. For at least a coupla years after that, we all felt like we were one big, happy team, from Venice all the way to Peru.
Of course, then the Spaniards had to go and send the Armada over to England, and people got all pissy again. But still! Another crusade! What could possibly go wrong?
Persia
@geg6: Honestly, I think it’s as much code for ‘no buttsex’ as a ‘challenge’ to Islam. It’s sick stuff either way.
tim
Jesus Christ formed no organized churches, recruited no soldiers, tortured and degraded no “heretics,” and waged no wars.
The cretins who for two thousand years have done all of the above in his name are among us even now, in greater number and with greater power at their disposal than ever before.
One of them is Chunky David Brooks.
Comrade Darkness
@ed: You know who else was in Hitler Youth?
The Pope.
I’m just sayin’.
Sentient Puddle
@DougJ:
From my understanding, almost but not quite. Islam treats Jesus as a prophet, but not the son of God. Which, as far as Christians are concerned, is a pretty big sticking point.
Comrade Darkness
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.): Sorry, if this has been covered, but this goes WAY back before. Unless you were being facetious. All but a few of those who would like to wage yet another Holy War would see this still in the light of the defilers of the Temple in the Holy Land. 9/11 is just icing on the cake of their excuse for wholesale hatred.
schrodinger's cat
I guess you liked my description of NYT’s youngest columnist. I continue to wonder how he bagged the NYT gig, when there are so many other who write better and more interesting stuff. Couldn’t they find somebody better than sanctimonious and prissy Mr Goody two-shoes.
Brian Griffin
As a relatively recent Episcopalian convert, (or Anglican if you prefer), it’s sort of weird to see this Catholic viewpoint.
We teach that all Christians already are one church, even if you don’t fully agree with what those other denominations say. (or what other Episcopal churches say, since that’s congregation-based here in the US anyway). And that includes Pentecostalism and Evangelicalism or basically anybody that follows the New Testament, whereas Douthat actually calls them another religion.
So from my point of view, we’re already united and much larger and looser than he could obviously stomach. There’s really not much point in recruiting Anglicans to become Catholics other than to build a bigger divisive church that still represses gays and doesn’t allow female leaders. To me, that’s a sad and narrow view of Christ’s teaching; but then again it’s pretty much why my wife left Catholicism and I was repulsed by it.
Douthat only makes any sense if it’s the anti-gay and anti-female recruits that Islam and Catholicism are fighting over– you know, REAL religious people, the intolerant ones, not to be confused with us squishy liberals.
Brick Oven Bill
If you read the Bible, and then read the Qur’an, you will find that Mohammed mostly re-wrote the Bible, putting himself in charge, and adding lots more punishments. In my opinion, Mohammed, in order to gain strength, played off of the existing strength of the Jewish and Christian faiths, which were well established in his time.
Jews and Christians were welcomed to convert to Islam, or practice their faith under its protection, in exchange for ‘Jizya’ (9:29), or protection money. I believe that this is the root of Mafia activity, and the current demands for schools and hospitals in our current experience in the Middle East. Italy was once under the control of the Muslims, who were most numerous in the south, i.e. Sicily.
Sun Tzu said that knowledge of the enemy’s dispositions can only be learned from other men. Thus the use of spies. Here is one way to do this, recognizing the scrubbed nature of the discussions.
Read Ask-Imam.com. This is good web-site to get a look into the Muslim mindset.
can i see the naked breast of my wife, on computer as i am far from here?
As an incentive to interact with Ask-Imam.com, it is necessary to open the link, to reveal the answer.
Comrade Darkness
@geg6: One may argue that Vatican II was losing an intellectual battle . . . to themselves. So there may be something in what you say here.
Sinister eyebrow
I would love to see a repeat of the Peasant Crusade where a whole army of starving Christian pilgrims, led by a demagouge or three, took off walking to the Holy Land thinking they could take it back from the Muslims just by sheer force of will and godly goodness, or something.
Let’s have Douthat start walking, gathering all teabaggers and right-wing xtian dominionists with him on the Pope’s crusade to destroy the Islam enemy. They can begin in Missouri and declare victory when they get to Pakistan. My guess is they won’t make it past the continental shelf in the Atlantic, but hey what do I know? I’m just a faithless heathen who won’t join the crusade.
ellaesther
Ok, so here’s the problem with monotheism! And I say this as a monotheist.
Monotheist religions tend to try to to be world-dominating, because the assumption is: One God, One Truth. My way or the highway, brother! So in a sense, Islam and Christianity are, in fact, foes. As systems, they oppose each other in that each claims ultimate truth — and there can only be one of those.
However, needless to say, this is all “in a sense.” Once it was absolutely so and played out on battlefields, but now, it is much more in the realm of culture wars and mutual bad-mouthing (and yes, Christians get bad-mouthed for being Christian in Muslim countries, just like we badmouth Muslims here) — with the obvious exception of the occasional religion-based terrorist attack — and we get to choose if we want to leave all that “foe” stuff behind. Clearly, Mr. Brooks would rather not.
Mark Siljander, a former Congressmember and former fundamentalist Christian who used to see Islam as (literally) the work of the Devil, wrote an interesting account of dawning understanding of how close the sources of Christianity and Islam are, and his subsequent high-flying interfaith work: A Deadly Misunderstanding It’s absolutely worth reading.
batgirl
@slag:
This
totally needs to be tweeted
Liberally Aware
The coming Holy War that occurs with the return of Christ against all infidels.
DUH!
This is step one. Get with the program.
licensed to kill time
I say let’s have a Holy War against fundamentalists of any stripe.
ellaesther
@ellaesther: I’m not sure if that above link is quite right, so I’ll post it again here:
Former Congressmember and former fundamentalist Christian Mark Siljander used to see Islam as (literally) the work of the Devil. He wrote an interesting account about studying the sources and discovering the similarities between Christianity and Islam (and no, I do not mean that one faith re-wrote the other), and his high-flying interfaith work:
A Deadly Misunderstanding
georgia pig
There’s this, of course:
DougJ
I guess you liked my description of NYT’s youngest columnist.
Yes! I couldn’t remember who said it, or I would have given you credit.
Molly
As an Episcopalian, I can say to my conservative Anglican brethren, “don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.”
Also.
mellowjohn
long live the papal front of judea!
splitter!!!!!!
Joe Vegas
Angelicans and Catholics come together like Voltron and then whoop Islamatron’s ass. What’s not to understand, man?!
Brian Griffin
@Molly: yes.
sad, but yes.
Brian Griffin
@Sentient Puddle: but unless I am mistaken, Islam also treats Mary as a saint.
which makes Douthat’s comments on the Anglican view of Mary interesting. Does he think Muslims are actually MORE inclined to convert Catholic than Anglicans?
georgia pig
Damn, link didn’t work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t6Q1aKkuUE&feature=related
stinkwrinkle
Remember when Douthat got the NY Times gig? And all the Next Generation Villagers said “Yeah, he’s conservative, but he’s a good guy and he’s really smart. Congratulations!”
Good times, good times.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
God wills it! The streets of Antioch (and later, Jerusalem) will run red with the blood of the infidels!
bago
@licensed to kill time: What can I say, the idiocy inspires me try and find new ways of cursing.
Sean
In days of old, the Crusades were a useful way of occupying that “third son” who wasn’t set to inherit anything and wouldn’t go into the priesthood.
This was great when travel took years and combat was hand-to-hand.
But now, one man can be anywhere in the world in 24 hours and kill 10,000 with a single bio-weapon.
Clearly, religious Crusades have become too dangerous to tolerate any longer. The represent a clear and present danger to the continued existence of our species.
We need to make the world safe for religious wars. I’m thinking we should have the two sides duke it out, Celebrity Death-Match style. Or, perhaps, we could have TV viewers vote for each religion on “American Idolatry” or something.
-Sean
Molly
@Brick Oven Bill: “In my opinion, it boils down to the fact that Christianity is a feminine religion, and Islam is a masculine religion.”
Oh dear fucking God, Bill.
They are both “masculine” religions. They both replaced “feminine” religions, which were centered around goddess worship. Both religions have been completely led my men up until this point. You can argue Christianity is based more on traditional “female” values, such as submission and compassion, but that’s ignoring the actual history of the church, which has not been based much on those ideals, but a projection of power outwards, by the sword. You are confusing the tenets of the founder with the implementation of those that came after, and those were most certainly not based on his teachings of peace, compassion, and tolerance.
You have an absolutely appalling grasp of the history of women in religion, in society, in history, and in the world we live in right now, Bill. I was glad when John and Doug banned you, and if you’ve been let back into the fold, fine, but you know NOTHING about women.
kool-aide
long time lurker, first time poster
Not so fast, Ross
There seems to still be a few “minor” details to work out on Benie’s Anglo-poaching rules. The sticking point? Celibacy. The Vatican still wants to require it. Shocking, I know.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
“Exulting with joy we reached the city of Jerusalem on Tuesday, June 6, and we besieged it in a wonderful manner. Robert of Normandy besieged it on the northern side, near the church of St. Stephen, the first martyr, who was there stoned for Christ’s name. Next to him was Robert, Count of Flanders. Duke Godfrey and Tancred carried on the siege on the west. The Count of St. Gilles operated from the south, on Mount Sion, near the church of St. Mary, the Lord’s mother, where the Lord supped with His disciples. . . .
“During the siege we were unable to find any bread to buy for about the space of ten days, until a messenger came from our ships; also we were afflicted by great thirst, so much so that in fear and terror we had to water our horses and other animals six miles away. The fountain of Siloam, at the foot of Mount Sion, sustained us, but the water was sold among us at a high price. . . . We sewed up skins of oxen and buffaloes in which we brought the water six miles. The water we drank from such receptacles was fetid, and what with foul water and barley bread we daily suffered great affliction and distress. Moreover the Saracens hid near all the springs and wells and ambushed our men, killing and mutilating them and driving off the animals into their dens and caverns.
“Then our leaders planned to attack the city with machines, in order to enter it and adore the sepulchre of our Saviour. They made two wooden towers and many other machines. . . . Day and night on the fourth and fifth days of the week we vigorously attacked the city on all sides; but before we made our assault the bishops and priests persuaded all by their preaching and exhortation that a procession should be made round Jerusalem to God’s honour, faithfully accompanied by prayers, alms and fasting. Early on the sixth day we attacked the city on all sides and could do nothing against it. We were all surprised and alarmed. Then, at the approach of the hour at which our Lord Jesus Christ deigned to undergo the passion of the cross for us, our knights in one of the towers fought bravely, amongst them Duke Godfrey and his brother, Count Eustace.
“One of our knights, Letholdus by name, climbed on to the wall of the city. When he reached the top, all the defenders of the city quickly fled along the walls and through the city. Our men followed and pursued them, killing and hacking, as far as the temple of Solomon, and there there was such a slaughter that our men were up to their ankles in the enemy’s blood. . . .
“The emir who commanded the tower of David surrendered to the Count [of St. Gilles] and opened the gate where pilgrims used to pay tribute. Entering the city, our pilgrims pursued and killed the Saracens up to the temple of Solomon. There the Saracens assembled and resisted fiercely all day, so that the whole temple flowed with their blood. At last the pagans were overcome and our men seized many men and women in the temple, killing them or keeping them alive as they saw fit. On the roof of the temple there was a great crowd of pagans of both sexes, to whom Tancred and Gaston de Beert gave their banners [to provide them with protection] . Then the crusaders scattered throughout the city, seizing gold and silver, horses and mules, and houses full of all sorts of goods. Afterwards our men went rejoicing and weeping for joy to adore the sepulchre of our Saviour Jesus and there discharged their debt to Him. . . .
“On the eighth day after the capture of the city they elected Duke Godfrey prince of the city, to fight the pagans and protect the Christians. Also, on the day of St. Peter in chains, they elected as Patriarch a most wise and honourable man, named Arnulf. The city was captured by the Christians on Friday, July 15.”
-anonymous eyewitness account of the conquest of Jerusalem, 1101
Brick Oven Bill
The other bad thing about Islam is that it is not a Green Religion.
As an example, you can have four wives, and are mandated to bathe after every sexual encounter. This one exception to this is if you do not ejaculate. In this case, you do not need bathe you whole body, but are only required to wash your organ, not the whole body.
3:0678
“If a person has sexual intercourse with his wife, but does not experience orgasm, he should wash his organ and perform an ablution.”
I am pretty much sure that a guy with four wives has a lot of sex. Especially since he can kick any one out the door pretty much at will, and replace her, setting an example for the other 3 existing wives, and the replacement wife.
So this is a lot of water, and is not environmentally friendly.
one two seven
Wait, this guy writes in the NY Times?
This is “would you like to subscribe to my newsletter?” nuttyness.
Have we really sunk this far?
Garrigus Carraig
That’s very gracious.
I’m just gonna throw this out there. Could someone not write a program to do what he does well, i.e. generate syntactically sound nonsense that sometimes makes us laugh?
ellaesther
Oh and PS
If anyone (say, David Brooks, perhaps?) is looking for good, useful, smart books about Islam and/or the Middle East, I’ve got suggestions:
1) Middle East reading list (This includes the great Crusades Through Arab Eyes — which I would in particular recommend in particular to Brooks!)
2) Islam, as told via the Shia-Sunni split
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
I’m sure this made sense when you said it in your own head.
ellaesther
@ellaesther: (apparently, I meant that one recommendation very in particular! Sigh. I need a copy editor).
Molly
@Brick Oven Bill: “So this is a lot of water, and is not environmentally friendly.”
I am convinced this is a spoof. It has to be, because I just have to believe that no one would ever really suggest the water shortages in some parts of the world could all be taken care of if Muslims just stopped bathing after sex…or washing off their pee pees if they didn’t orgasm, which I don’t tend to think is a normal occurrence for most men, of any religion.
No more throwing kibbles to the troll. Have a good weekend, all.
Sentient Puddle
@Garrigus Carraig: I don’t know, as it was, I was always under the impression that BoB was a bunch of manatees.
Persia
@Sentient Puddle: Manatees are way smarter than that.
Wolfdaughter
AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
As a cradle Episcopalian, I found Russ Douthat’s column to be appalling.
And for those of you who are not church-goers, there is NO CHANCE, I repeat, NO CHANCE, that Anglicanism will unite with Roman Catholicism to make any sort of (un)holy war on Islam. We believe that all people have the right to choose their own path to the Holy One, and that includes to NOT choose, for atheists and agnostics.
As for the Pope’s invitation to disaffected Anglicans, I have no doubt that some Anglicans will migrate over to Catholicism, but I doubt very strongly that there will be a huge number. Here in the U.S., to my knowledge three Episcopalian dioceses have left the Episcopal Church over the ordination of gays. And as someone said upthread, don’t let the door hit their asses on the way out.
If I had my way, we would terraform an asteroid or maybe Mars, and then anyone who wants to fight wars over religion or whatever can go there and duke it out, and leave the rest of us f***ing alone!
BTW, I call the Pope “Der Rattensinger von Hameln”.
Sue
If I’ve got this right, the Pope is encouraging those Anglicans who want to pick and choose what parts of religion they will accept to c’mon in, the holy water’s fine.
If he doesn’t want Cafeteria Catholics, why bring in Cafeteria Anglicans?
This could be fun to watch from the sidelines, because the first part of this fight will be with each other; we don’t need to worry about the outward ramifications because this just might cause a nice little implosion.
Molly
@Wolfdaughter: “And for those of you who are not church-goers, there is NO CHANCE, I repeat, NO CHANCE, that Anglicanism will unite with Roman Catholicism to make any sort of (un)holy war on Islam. We believe that all people have the right to choose their own path to the Holy One, and that includes to NOT choose, for atheists and agnostics.”
Thank you. Very well said.
And from what I’ve heard, the ordination of women caused a LOT more fissures in the Anglican Communion. People with battle scars from that fight (including my female priest who was in the middle of it) find all of this somewhat interesting, but not troubling.
If some members of the communion feel their path is better suited for Roman Catholicism, again, they need to make their way there.
Cackalacka
What Molly said,
We’ve got a nice liturgy, without the propensity to crawl up everyone elses ass. Best of both worlds: communion and personal space.
As a lifelong Episcopalean, in an area of the country where many folk join the Episcopalean church insofar as to make connections (think country clubs,) I note we get a lot of converts who strive for financial wealth (think conservatives.) These new adherents are essentially ignorant to the Episcopalean legacy of social liberalism.
The gay bishops and women of the cloth are natural extentions of the church’s involvement in the civil rights movement.
Hell, my faith was created due to a fat man’s inability to get a divorce. The Anglican communion was founded on sexual deviency.
So, it was both equal parts humorous and pathetic to witness otherwise thoughtful, educated people, bark until they were red in the face over matters of sexuality that are of absolutely no concern to them. There are any number of faiths that place a premium on Leviticus over the Gospels. If you view religion as a handy bludgeon to promote political agendas, please join a denomination that suits your needs. If a cynical ploy made by a religious leader with a highly questionable personal background appeals to you, well, there isn’t much more to be said but: pathetic.
stormhit
The Eastern Catholic churches have been operating under their own separate rules for quite some time. This whole Anglican thing is neither surprising nor particularly interesting.
Also, using the term Joe Ratzinger is petty and fucking stupid.
Cackalacka
Petty & stupid, like when one of the largest denominations makes a cynical overture to soak up another, smaller denominations bigots?
Please, take ’em with you, stormy.
Hebisner
Islam is now the main enemy of Christianity? Dammit, I thought us Liberal/Atheists were the great enemy of Christianity. I cannot believe we have been dumped for that slutty Islam.
Oh, David Brooks, where did we go wrong???
Mnemosyne
To be fair, the original founding principle of the Church of England was, “King Henry wants a divorce.” It wouldn’t be a huge shock to see at least some of them go back to Rome.
Molly
@stormhit: “Also, using the term Joe Ratzinger is petty and fucking stupid.”
It’s his name, correct? He’s just a man. I will say this again, HE. IS. JUST. A. MAN. He is not any holier than any other human being on this planet. He puts on his gilded underwear the same way the rest of us do, and his prayers are no more valid, important, or heard by God than mine are, or a Muslim’s are, or a Jew’s are, or the hopes of an athiest or an agnostic are, or the chants of a Buddhist are.
The pope is just a man. A priest is still just a human being who is wearing a cross around their neck, which is only a piece of metal. If you’re concerned about your Christian faith, let’s pull down The Vatican, sell off the gold and the mosaics, and feed the poor and starving of this world.
There. Now those of you who were wondering if Roman Catholics and Anglicans would ever unite against Muslims understand why I am not concerned about that possibility.
Dreggas
Someone should tell Ratzinger that it’s not the olden days where the church controlled countries, thus a crusade is far harder to provide troops for.
Mnemosyne
@Sue:
Oh, he wants Cafeteria Catholics, all right. He just wants conservative Cafeteria Catholics, not liberal ones. There’s nothing that drives me more nuts than a death-penalty-supporting, Iraq-War-cheering conservative Cafeteria Catholic accusing me of picking and choosing which parts of Catholicism I follow when s/he has done exactly the same thing.
Molly
@Mnemosyne: “He just wants conservative Cafeteria Catholics, not liberal ones.”
Exactly. And what I find amusing is exactly the same thing you do, that a Catholic that adheres to the believe in the sacredness of life would be anti-death penalty and anti-war.
My aunt is a nun that is probably the most compassionate person I have ever known. I have much respect for anyone who lives their lives with that kind of devotion to her fellow man, without strings, preconditions, or discrimination. I have found that she and I have more in common in our beliefs than she has with the Roman Catholic church.
Cain
@DougJ:
I would think it was a modified form of Judaism. Diet for instance is the same, and both have a foundation of the old testament. Jesus also is only a minor prophet in Islam while Jesus is pretty much Christianity.
cain
Northern Observer
1. Read the Koran. Christians are considered inherently sinful and worthy of piracy, second class status and or death if they continue to resist the call to Islam. It is just as bad for the jews. You could also go read some of the Mullah sermons in translation, it is quite clarifying when you realise that a large chunk of the Islamic religious leadership has a deathwish for you because you are not a muslim. And they have followers who respect or at least don’t resist that shall we say crimson opinion. It tends to focus the mind a bit. Islam is nothing like any other faith. I would argue that is has more in common with Paganism than anything else; monotheistic paganism if you can understand the contridiction. Vikings with monotheism. The Koran creates people who think act and feel like vikings, but with all the self righteousnes of a monotheistic revealed religion. Another way to look at it is to say Islam is like pre-rabbinical judaism; you know the blood and guts judaism of moses and the exodus. The one that the jewish religion evolved out of for the next 3500 years; Islam takes monotheistic faith back to that primitive state and brings the ethics and moral reasoning of that period into the present which is why it is so damn disfuctional. (fundamentalist jews and christians do the same thing, which is what makes them so irritating, but in Islam the ratio between fringe and carpet is reversed)
2. Converting the muslims immigrating to the West. Openly going out and converting Muslims. It is not done now because it is widly understood that any muslim that is discovered entertaining the notion of conversion whether living in Somalia or Brooklyn will be killed by a coreligionists. The preacher who also tries to convert him will probably face death as well. Dohat is just fantasysing about a church with the confidence and the sandles on the ground to do this kind of conversion work. So far the only people with the guts to try are pentacostals and african anglicans.
Makewi
@Molly:
I’m not suggesting you’re underlying premise is incorrect, just that from the Church’s perspective the pope is not “just a man” and his prayers are in fact “worth more”. It’s the whole “whatever you bind on earth..” foundation and apostolic succession ideas that this is based on.
Info
Svensker
Excuse me if I’m wrong, or if it’s been brought up earlier upthread and I missed it — but isn’t David Brooks Jewish? WTF does he know about Christianity and its “enduring foes”? I could write a piece about Judaism and its new greatest foe, Scientology — since both belief systems are abundant in Hollywood — and that would make as much sense.
Don’t be writing in the NYT about stuff you don’t understand, David. Oh wait…
Donk
Douhthat is a scary dude. He also writes some pretty weird stuff (and no, being as he is married, this amazing paragraph about “mastication”was not preceded by how he was to discover he was gay.”)
David Brooks is pretty bad. Okay, really bad.
But Douthat’s column essentially supporting the idea of war between the world’s two major religions is pretty frightening.
As is Douthat. As is the New York Times for publishing his garbage.
However, this recent idea by him on the public option (probably unpopular on this site, dunno) really isn’t a bad idea, and is better than the one currently being bandied about:
Health insurance — particularly for profit health insurance — is probably the biggest cause of excessive health care costs (among many causes) in America. It should not ‘pay for” health care and add in layers of cost to do so, but insure people against really harm; what “insurance” really means. Hence why catastrophic insurance makes sense.
If the concern was coverage for everyone, Republican Douthat’s suggestion is to have the government provide this. It would also not impede low cost care for those with real need, while making it much easier to achieve, because it would drive costs down while not hurting the quality of care a bit. (in fact, it would free up doctors to actually practice medicine, and remove the insurance barrier between patients and doctors that as a practical matter exists now.)
But that does not excuse the frightening views on how Christianity has an enemy religion – that just happens to be the world’s second largest — that it should push against.
Donk
Second Brooks link. The Really Bad one.
IndyLib
@Svensker:
“Chunky” David Brooks = Ross Douchehat
Ash Can
Douthat is a complete asshole. And Pope Ratzinger’s equally an asshole if in fact he’s trying to “stand up to” Islam or portray it in any way as an adversary. And I say this as a practicing Catholic.
Along with Christianity and Judaism, Islam is the third great pillar of Middle-East-based monotheism. It has many, many beliefs in common with Christianity and Judaism, and regards the scriptures of both Christianity and Judaism with utmost respect. People who cherry-pick passages out of the Quran or cite the Fred Phelpses of Islam as evidence that Islam is some sort of an enemy are only doing so out of their own nefarious personal prejudices. (Furthermore, the fact that Judeo-Christian scripture is rife with the same kind of kill-the-infidels passages goes without saying.) And those who do so while claiming to be observant Christians on top of it should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
Fern
I know I am very late to this thread, but I think that the pope is aiming this at African Anglicans rather than North Americans. Many Christians in Africa are violently opposed to homosexuality, and I suspect that there are pastors and congregations why may take him up on the offer.
CJ
I know this may be naive, but I recall being taught that “Christianity’s most enduring and impressive foe” was Satan.
Svensker
@IndyLib:
Oh.
Slinking away while doing Emily Litella impression….
TheHatOnMyCat
@Brick Oven Bill:
As much as I think you are an unrepentant and obnoxious spoof troll, and probably written by DougJ, I have to admit, this is a funny post.
Makewi
@Ash Can:
Surely you must understand the difference between knowing what the scripture says and acting on that knowledge? The fundamental problem with modern Islam is that it does not have the benefit of the sort of reformations that both Judaism and Christianity underwent. Islam, as it is currently led, fails to account for the evolution of human understanding over time. Those with the reigns refuse to acknowledge that a person born today is better equipped to understand concepts than one who was born hundreds of years ago.
Delia
@Makewi:
What on earth does this mean? Certainly there are concepts in science and technology today that weren’t around 500 years ago. I’m not sure that theological and philosophical concepts have the same “sell-by” quality as, say old physics or chemistry theories. You can still read Plato and St. Augustine for their intrinsic worth today. I can’t really say whether Judaism went through a “reformation” the way western Christianity did, but that’s not the reason some regions of the Islamic world is having issues with the West today. It’s a lot more rooted in the whole colonial enterprise. Politics and religion have always gotten mixed up together (see Ireland). To head off into abstract Clashes of Civilizations should be left for science fiction.
Svensker
@Delia:
Makewi’s just been reading some Bernard Lewis. Or more likely, reading someone who said they read Bernard Lewis. Not that Bernard Lewis is worth reading, bless his bigoted little heart.
stickler
What Delia said: “Islam” has problems with the USA and the West for reasons that have a whole hell of a lot to do with things that happened after 1878 and not very much to do with the fall of Constantinople in 1453.
Add to that the problems of massive transfers of wealth from the West to the Middle East, in exchange for liquid dead dinosaurs. Oh, and migration of Muslim folks from backwoods regions like Anatolia, to modern Western societies. Are honor killings of Turkish women in Berlin by their uncles because they’re all Muslim? Or because they migrated to Berlin from some Godforsaken hill town where it’s still 1420 and the Honor Of The Family Is Sullied By Our Slutty Daughters? (Shit — think about Sicily in 1925, or for that matter, Texas in 1955. Not a hell of a lot of difference, and the bigotry and backwardness isn’t due to religion.)
Jay C
@CJ:
And what, you don’t think Satan is a Muslim? You’re obviously stuck in the 9/10 mindset……
Molly
@Makewi: “I’m not suggesting you’re underlying premise is incorrect, just that from the Church’s perspective the pope is not “just a man” and his prayers are in fact “worth more”.
Oh, I know. My mother’s family is all Roman Catholic, and I was raised by a father who is also a professor of comparative religion, and agnostic. When you’re raised with religious commonality instead of religious division, it tends to give you a different perspective on the whole thing.
The doctrine of papal infallibility is usually enough to set my teeth on edge. Alexander VI made the most of that one.
Molly
@Makewi: “I’m not suggesting you’re underlying premise is incorrect, just that from the Church’s perspective the pope is not “just a man” and his prayers are in fact “worth more”.
Oh, I know. My mother’s family is all Roman Catholic, and I was raised by a father who is also a professor of comparative religion, and agnostic. When you’re raised with religious commonality instead of religious division, it tends to give you a different perspective on the whole thing.
The doctrine of papal infallibility is usually enough to set my teeth on edge. Alexander VI made the most of that one.
mellowjohn
“Away with your English religion,
And your baseless meaningless faith,
For the only rock it is built on,
Are the balls of Henry the Eighth.”
Xanthippas
I don’t really understand this. The conservative Anglicans have a problem with gays and the ordination of women. Why are they supposed to sign onto an anti-Islam crusade?
Brick Oven Bill
Testing.
Mako
It’s called “history”. They don’t really teach much of it in school, but you can find a book or two in the library sometimes.
Fifi
Doug,
Douthat is an asshole. And same with Ratzi. Saying so as an atheist. But there, you step in it big time. Islam and the delusions of world domination by islamists are not something to take lightly.
Here. Try this.
http://somalisforjesus.blogspot.com/2009/01/mansur-mohamed-sfj-martyr-of-year-2009.html
And do not click the video before you read the description and you are absolutely sure you want to see it. It’s an absolute abomination. I had to stop way very quickly.
And you can’t even blame those murderous psychos for going too far or being bad muslims. Quite the contrary. They live true to their religion. They are literally doing it by the Book – Koran and Hadith – about apostates. And the Book itself compels a literal reading. No room for interpretation. No room for reformation. The Book is murky and perplexing for many things but not about that. It is as unequivocal as one can be. There can be truces and temporary accommodations. For the Shia, there can even be outright lies to deceive the infidel and subjugate him by ruse. But it is all it is. Pragmatic temporisation until the “faith” can reign. In the end, only the word of “God” must remain, immutable, unalterable, totally barbaric, terminally inhuman, utterly irredeemable.
There are many very good and worthy people who are also muslims but this video is as close as you can get to the truth of Islam. As the expression correctly goes, there are many moderate muslims but there is no moderate Islam.
Danielle Chirokiotis
The foes of the various monotheisms are the other monotheisms. (And I’m not letting the polytheism’s off the hook when I make that statement.)
It’s this understanding that led Huntington to proclaim his “clash of civilizations” nearly two decades ago.