Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Not all heroes wear capes.

JFC, are there no editors left at that goddamn rag?

Battle won, war still ongoing.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

I really should read my own blog.

Prediction: the GOP will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

I was promised a recession.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

Infrastructure week. at last.

And we’re all out of bubblegum.

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

This fight is for everything.

Damn right I heard that as a threat.

Insiders who complain to politico: please report to the white house office of shut the fuck up.

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

Sadly, there is no cure for stupid.

We cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation.

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

Imperialist aggressors must be defeated, or the whole world loses.

… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

Come on, media. you have one job. start doing it.

Republican obstruction dressed up as bipartisanship. Again.

You are here: Home / Politics / Media / Don’t forget old and rich

Don’t forget old and rich

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Matt Yglesias produces a map (from Open Left) showing how Republican white men are and writes, smartly:

I would say that another message is that progressive politics is badly disadvantaged by a situation in which the overwhelming majorities of political leaders and prominent media figures are white men. There are plenty of white men with progressive views, but in general the majority of white men are not progressive and the majority of progressives are not white men. Drawing from the relatively small pool of white male progressives means drawing from a shallow talent pool.

Let’s not forget that prominent media figures are also disproportionately old and rich. The idea that a bunch of rich, old, white, men have teh librul bias has always been laughable to me. Obviously, anyone with a brain who follows modern politics and wants to avoid the apocalypse is going to favor Democrats in federal elections. And it’s possible that a reasonable proportion of prominent media figures are sentient, apocalypse-fearing beings. But that doesn’t make them liberal.

Reader Interactions

163Comments

  1. 1.

    calipygian

    I don’t know. This is just anecdotal, but I am a 40ish white man, did 20 years in the military, Republican family, well toward the top of the pay scale. Once it was clear that the religious crazies were a force in the Republican party, they lost me. And I saw that long before the Schiavo fiasco.

    I just don’t think a top marginal tax rate of 39 vs 36 percent if it means a couple of people get medical care or a couple of people don’t get tossed out of their house because they can collect unemployment for a few weeks is going to bankrupt me.

    And I’m definitely not down with the Christian Jihad.

  2. 2.

    linda

    there is little more infuriating than tuning into hardball to watch three middleaged white men opine on restricting women’s reproductive choices.

  3. 3.

    Violet

    @linda:
    Or almost anything else. If perhaps they were opining on the challenges of finding a good Elder at the local Presbyterian church, that might be different. But why old white men are held up as the folks who have answers to everything, whether it has anything to do with them or not, is beyond infuriating.

  5. 5.

    DougJ

    I don’t know. This is just anecdotal, but I am a 40ish white man, did 20 years in the military, Republican family, well toward the top of the pay scale. Once it was clear that the religious crazies were a force in the Republican party, they lost me. And I saw that long before the Schiavo fiasco.

    Well, you’re a credit to your race.

    But the crazies are disproportionately white men, in general.

  6. 6.

    Mark S.

    @linda:

    Word. I also liked the time Tweety and three other guys were discussing whether Obama’s election meant that racism was dead in America.

  8. 8.

    linda

    @Violet:

    and it’s always middledaged white men tweety has to discuss abortion rights. i wish rachel would have a panel consisting of the butchest of her lesbian friends on to discuss how insurance companies will cover boner pills for men but not birth control for women…

    imagine the uproar. lol.

  9. 9.

    calipygian

    @DougJ:

    Well, you’re a credit to your race.
    …
    But the crazies are disproportionately white men, in general.

    Thank you! I’ve never been told I’ve been a credit to my race before.

  10. 10.

    calipygian

    @linda: I’d like to see Rachel Maddow and three of her butchest friends discuss circumcision and if it should be a mandatory AIDS prevention procedure.

    Now THAT would cause an uproar!

  13. 13.

    James

    C’mon Doug. You’re a scientist. The map is showing voting patterns and not political self-identification, although your interpretation of the data is better than MY’s, who purports that the map shows how white men aren’t progressive and what a shallow pool someone is swimming around in. It does nothing of the kind. You know, white male Democrats in the South may not have voted for Obama in great numbers either. This map is not saying what you are saying it is saying. You might be right, of course, but this map does not demonstrate it.

    I imagine we could go to the General Social Survey to look at gender/geographic distribution of political self-identification, because at least they asked the question.

  14. 14.

    Anastasius

    Come on, that shallow talent pool still consists of millions of white guys. This is and has always been an institutional problem, why now make a ridiculous numbers disadvantage apology?

    And the butch lesbian boner panel is killing me, haha.

  16. 16.

    DougJ

    Thank you! I’ve never been told I’ve been a credit to my race before.

    Seriously, few people have the sense to abandon their previous political party when it goes crazy, as you have.

    I was raised as a hippie, so I’ve never had that opportunity. The closest I can get is making fun of the more militant left-wing blogs and anti-vax nuts and such.

  17. 17.

    Comrade Luke

    Let’s not forget that Yglesias is a dipshit.

    We should feel free to interpret that map any way we want, but as far as addressing his reasoning…please.

    Seriously, why would anyone listen to this guy. He’s the epitome of the “even a stopwatch is right twice a day” stereotype.

  19. 19.

    James

    Don’t burden the left with the anti-vaccination nuts, please. That particular strain of nuttiness has no political affiliation. There are religious groups that are anti-vax, chiropractic has been anti-vax, some upper-middle-class mothers are anti-vax, homeopathic advocates are anti-vax. These people are not “left.” So please, spare us the stereotype.

  20. 20.

    Violet

    @calipygian:
    YEAH! Now that’s more like it. I’d also like to see Rachel and three of her lesbian friends discuss the wastefulness of insurance companies covering boner pills and how clearly they’re something men want, not need. And how we can’t be spending our precious insurance money on things that are just nice to have when people are dying. And while they’re at it, they can discuss the issue of prostate enlargement and how it’s really not a big deal until a guy can’t p ee. If it’s not that bad, it’s probably all in his mind and might just be his hormones.

  24. 24.

    DougJ

    Seriously, why would anyone listen to this guy. He’s the epitome of the “even a stopwatch is right twice a day” stereotype.

    Huh? I think he’s one of the best bloggers out there.

  26. 26.

    MikeJ

    Scarborough is stuck on a plane – 3 hours delayed because of the President campaigning for Corzine and backing up airspace.

    He’s stuck on a plane and is blaming Obama because they’re trying to rerun the entire anti-Clinton playbook.

  28. 28.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    showing how Republican white men are

    S/b where.

    The take home message: expanding voting rights – a progressive position – resulted in the ability to elect more liberal politicians.

    You know, I was going to say this is blindingly obvious but it leaves the question: How did the people who expanded voting rights get in office when only white men were voting?

    Drawing from the relatively small pool of white male progressives means drawing from a shallow talent pool.

    I don’t get it. We’ve got a non-Caucasian president, which suggests (at the very least) white males are not as crucial to the equation as once they were. An African-American president also suggests that the talent pool is a damn sight bigger now.

    Really, what’s he talking about?

  29. 29.

    Corner Stone

    @James: You should be careful James. Questioning the conclusion of a front page opinion will get you called a stinky troll round these parts.

  30. 30.

    James

    Doug, that map does NOT show how “Republican” white men are. It shows the percent of white men who voted for Obama. You are misrepresenting the data.

    Matt Yglesias produces a map (from Open Left) showing how Republican white men are and writes, smartly

    Please show how the map in any way shows how “Republican” white men are. Where’s the party breakdown? Did any white male Democrats *not* vote for Obama? What’s the breakdown there?

    I hate it when us reality-based folks misrepresent data.

  32. 32.

    James

    @Corner Stone: Dude, I have facts on my side. DougJ misrepresents this map and the data, but not nearly as much as MY does; we expect journos to represent data fairly, and why shouldn’t we be held to at least that minimum standard? If that’s trollish, so be it.

  34. 34.

    James

    @MikeJ: Um. this map does not say anything about who voted for a Republican. It is a map of the proportion of white male voters who voted for Obama. Some proportion of them may have voted third party, right.

    I’m just asking for an accurate representation of the actual map.

  35. 35.

    DougJ

    I guess I’ve made the terrible mistake of thinking that the white men who didn’t vote for Obama must have voted for McCain.

    Shame on me. Shame on Matt Yglesias.

  36. 36.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @inkadu:

    Anyone watching 60 Minutes? Did you know movies are being pirated? Shock! Horror!

    ZOMFG, apparently they are pirating these movies RIGHT IN FRONT OF CHILDREN in the movie theater!!! And then they are using this Gee Whiz! technology called bit torrent to send them all over the world. And if that isn’t scary enough, you should see the spinning green and pink bit torrent graphical representation!! I shuddered.

  37. 37.

    Anne Laurie

    @smiley:

    What is white? Seriously, I’d like to know how it’s defined these days.

    Republican. I wish I were totally kidding, but “white” has always been very much a social construct here in the Great American Melting Pot, and the current leaders (official and self-appointed) of the Republican Party are busy pushing the ‘tradition’ button to separate the whole country into Us Versus Them, with “us” defined as “people good/smart/obedient enough to vote Republican, even when that means voting against their own best interests.” So-called self-styled liberal/Democratic rich white men like Chris Matthews, and possibly Bobo Brooks, are totally incapable of understanding how disingenuous and dangerous this is because, well, the other rich white straight men they know who happen to vote Republican have always been very nice to them. At least to their faces. The Media Village Idiots can afford to treat politics as just another sport because, in Dean Broder’s life, whether Dubya or Obama is sitting in the Oval Office doesn’t make any more difference than whether the Phillies or the Yanks win the World Series. It’s hell on the rest of us — and the rest of the world — but the Media Village Idiots, who are all “white” by appointment if not by birth, can still use the old phrase “free, white, and twenty-one” unironically.

  38. 38.

    aimai

    That reading of the map by Matt is the weirdest reading of all time. YOu would need to know the population percentage of white men in the voting population for each state to begin to figure out whether the map was telling you how white men vote, or how southern white men vote. His conclusions make no sense.

    aimai

  39. 39.

    smiley

    OT: This has been said here before but Pandora is really something everyone should support. I’m listening to the Joan Armatrading stream now. Awesome. It includes old Joni too.

  40. 40.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    What seems to be hampering law enforcement is movie pirates have abandoned typical pirate dress like eyepatches, pirate hats and gold cuffs in favor of turtlenecks and jeans.

  41. 41.

    James

    @DougJ:

    Again, I am noting that you are misrepresenting the data. It is a map of the proportion of white male voters who voted for Obama, in a geographical representation. It wouldn’t be so bad except that Yglesias tees off the map to propound on something about swimming in shallow waters and progressives and some such bullshit. There’s no need to get petulant about this, Doug. Just correct your interpretation. It is wrong.

    Let’s not get all SuperFreakonomics about defending an indefensible interpretation of data.

  42. 42.

    perfectly cromulent

    @James: Yeah, and he compounds the error by calling Yglesias’ take “smart.” I was blown away by how dumb Matt’s analysis was.

  43. 43.

    dmsilev

    @James: Between the two of them, Obama and McCain accounted for 98.6% of the votes cast. Third party votes are a tiny fraction of the whole.

    (see e.g. here for the full breakdown).

    -dms

  44. 44.

    inkadu

    @Just Some Fuckhead: I understand the outrage about the kids. Who wants to watch a cam copy with a kid saying, “What happened daddy?” every two minutes. Kids don’t belong next to anyone recording movies. Unless they’re carrying heroine to sell to other children in the theater.

    Thank you, 60 Minutes, for making feel young again.

  45. 45.

    Corner Stone

    @aimai: I’m warning you too aimai – don’t question the front page opinions.
    Only stinky troll-fu lives there.

  47. 47.

    dmsilev

    @inkadu:

    Kids don’t belong next to anyone recording movies. Unless they’re carrying heroine to sell to other children in the theater.

    I like that typo. The image of a ten year old dragging some kicking and screaming princess across the theater to sell to another ten year old is one to treasure.

    -dms

  48. 48.

    James

    @dmsilev: Thanks for that information. What was the geographical breakdown of the third party vote? You talk about swimming in shallow waters!

    Geez. I’m not trying to be trollish. Someone isn’t allowed to note when someone’s data doesn’t demonstrate what he purports it to demonstrate without being viewed as trollish? Have we come to that?

  50. 50.

    General Winfield Stuck

    I would just point out, that outside political junkies, most white men who are progressive prolly don’t know it, or would not self indentiy that way, largely cause it’s too close to liberal and sissy.

    In the south it is simpler, no libtard need apply. For generations, they called themselves dems because so many repubs were from the north and dems welcomed Jim Crow. That’s a gross simplification, but to illustrate that people in this country, by and large, look at politics by issue, and whatever one has urgency in their lives at any given point, they align with.

    With the south race is always a major factor, maybe some less than it has been, but not when it comes to the color of their president when it takes on a crazy life of it’s own. The white vote for Obama in the deep south was between 10 and 15 percent. what does that say?

  51. 51.

    DougJ

    YOu would need to know the population percentage of white men in the voting population for each state to begin to figure out whether the map was telling you how white men vote, or how southern white men vote.

    I think he’s phrasing it wrong. He doesn’t mean vote shares, he means the percentage of white men who voted for Obama in that state. Otherwise, the number would probably never be above 50%.

    I see what everyone here (modulo the nuts) is attacking MY for.

  52. 52.

    James

    @DougJ:

    I’m an epidemiologist, Doug. A scientist. Please show me where anything I said supports your contention that I am a “spoof.”

  54. 54.

    DougJ

    I’m an epidemiologist, Doug. A scientist. Please show me where anything I said supports your contention that I am a “spoof.”

    You’re crazy as a shithouse rat if you’re not a spoof.

  56. 56.

    MikeJ

    Some proportion of them may have voted third party,

    No. They didn’t vote for third parties. We know this just didn’t happen.

  57. 57.

    General Winfield Stuck

    @Corner Stone:

    I’m warning you too aimai – don’t question the front page opinions . Only stinky troll-fu lives there.

    You’ve said this a number of times in threads today. It is just bullshit. You get called a troll because you are one from wanking points that are dubious at best.

  58. 58.

    smiley

    Here’s something I don’t understand. Why do some performers think they can do a song better than the original? I’m sitting here listening to someone named Susan Tedes singing “Don’t think twice”. Does she really think her version is better that the original (hint: not even close)?

  59. 59.

    burnspbesq

    @James:

    Geez. I’m not trying to be trollish. Someone isn’t allowed to note when someone’s data doesn’t demonstrate what he purports it to demonstrate without being viewed as trollish? Have we come to that?

    Relax. We not only tolerate that, we encourage it.

    The problem is that Corner Stone, who really is a troll, is trying to co-opt you for his own bizarre purposes. You may want to tell him to knock it the fuck off.

  61. 61.

    dmsilev

    @James:
    First off, 1.4% of the whole is, at the level of demographics, noise. The bipolar approximation that DougJ is making is a reasonable one.

    That said, if you scroll down a bit in that Wikipedia article, you’ll see the state by state breakdown. I’m not going to go through it state by state (they only give vote totals, not percentages), but would be surprised if any state had third-party totals much above 2 or 3 percent. Lost in the noise, in other words.

    -dms

  62. 62.

    DougJ

    I’m warning you too aimai – don’t question the front page opinions .

    You mostly seem to argue with comments, not posts, anyway. And it’s more the way you argue than what you are saying that gets you called a troll.

  63. 63.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @burnspbesq:

    The problem is that Corner Stone, who really is a troll, is trying to co-opt you for his own bizarre purposes. You may want to tell him to knock it the fuck off.

    lolz

  64. 64.

    Corner Stone

    @Keith G: Glad to see you too, although I’ll take your w&w crack with a little salt.
    Yes, been laying low and taking care of life and business.
    Am definitely enjoying the weather we’re having. Went to the air show yesterday. Lots of traffic and a cluster for parking but really a fantastic day for it. There’s nothing better than watching A-10’s and Apache’s doing simulation strafing runs.
    Seeing as how no one dies and all.
    Howz it with yourself?

  66. 66.

    DougJ

    I’m sitting here listening to someone named Susan Tedes singing “Don’t think twice”. Does she really think her version is better that the original (hint: not even close)?

    Yeah, they play that all the time on my local independent station. She really blue-eye souls the thing up. It’s awful.

  67. 67.

    calipygian

    I’m warning you too aimai – don’t question the front page opinions . Only stinky troll-fu lives there.

    I’m fairly certain that aimai is not a troll.

  69. 69.

    MikeJ

    Does she really think her version is better that the original (hint: not even close)?

    I’ve found it bizarre that the traditional media has had such a laff over Bobby D putting putting out an xmas album. An artist that’s sold 35 million albums puts out an xmas album and we’re supposed to think that’s odd and nobody will buy it?

  70. 70.

    Corner Stone

    @calipygian: I’m certain of that as well.
    But neither am I. I have strong opinions about some things and don’t hesitate to post those. But I also engage in a non-Michael Gass manner when people try to tell me I’m incorrect or not accurate about something.
    I fail to see how having strong opinions and language make me a troll around these parts.
    If a difference of opinion and the willingness to back it up is the mark of a troll here at BJ then I guess that is what it is.
    I stand out a little bit because unlike a huge percentage of other posters here I was never a Republican.
    Seems like old habits die hard amongst this bunch.

  71. 71.

    Corner Stone

    @burnspbesq: I’m not co-opting anyone, just pointing out how quickly some posters here jump on anyone who disagrees.
    And don’t you back the Yankees? Or am I mistaken?

  73. 73.

    MikeJ

    And unintentional google joke of the day:

    “Did you mean: Susan Tedious don’t think twice “

  74. 74.

    Scott de B.

    You know, white male Democrats in the South may not have voted for Obama in great numbers either.

    If you didn’t vote for Obama, I wouldn’t call you a Democrat. You’re definitely not a progressive.

    That reading of the map by Matt is the weirdest reading of all time. YOu would need to know the population percentage of white men in the voting population for each state to begin to figure out whether the map was telling you how white men vote, or how southern white men vote. His conclusions make no sense.

    The map shows the proportion of the white vote for Obama, not the proportion of the overall vote for Obama. So I don’t see why you need to know the proportion of non-white voters.

  75. 75.

    burnspbesq

    @smiley:

    Not clear what your issue is here. Do you not like Susan Tedeschi’s version of “Don’t Think Twice?” Fine. I don’t think it’s one of her best performances.

    Or are you saying that no cover can ever be artistically valid? If that’s your argument, I’m going to start citing examples by the thousands of cover versions that far outstrip the originals IMO. You can start with Diana Krall’s recording of “Black Crow;” that’s just the first one that came to mind.

  76. 76.

    inkadu

    @dmsilev: If the heroine is wearing a mushroom hat, we can assume the 10-year-old pushing her is a victim of too much Nintendo Super Mario Bros.

    “How do you like that rescue? Huh, bitch?”

  78. 78.

    Corner Stone

    @DougJ: I usually don’t get around BJ in time to post much about the front paged posts, and join the discussion after a lot of it has already been said.
    As you’ll note, I disagreed with your post earlier today and think I explained why.
    I asked why a seasoned political operative would suspend her campaign if not for the fact that Hoffman was doing so well in NY-23 and was told I was ignorant for that question.
    So I don’t think that was on me.

  79. 79.

    dmsilev

    @dmsilev:OK, I’ve gotten myself curious enough to spend 2 minutes in Excel. The highest fraction of third-party votes was in Montana with 3.23%, followed by Utah with 3.01%. Oregon, Alaska, Wyoming, Arkansas, Massachusetts, Nevada, North Dakota, and Minnesota round out the top ten. By that point, you’re down to 2.12% of the voting population.

    Amusingly, Nader outpolled Barr in all ten of those states.

    -dms

  80. 80.

    Max

    @DougJ: Her name is Susan Tedeschi and if you haven’t heard her “Angel from Montgomery” you are missing out.

    I mean that sincerely, she’s great. Her husband is Derek Trucks, who is also rockin.

    But what do I know, I’m an O-bot.

  81. 81.

    burnspbesq

    @Corner Stone:

    And don’t you back the Yankees? Or am I mistaken?

    “Mistaken” doesn’t begin to describe it. Them’s fightin’ words. Fer real.

  82. 82.

    Corner Stone

    @General Winfield Stuck: HAHAHA!
    If anyone wants to see whining they should take a look at the recent thread where TZ aka LoveMonkey spanks your pathetic ass and you go whining off into the night like a little cur dog.
    Don’t start mouthing schmucky, you are no good at this as has been proven time and again.

  84. 84.

    General Winfield Stuck

    But what do I know, I’m an O-bot.

    I really do like her rendition of “Don’t Think Twice”. My Parakeet does a better rendition than Dylan’s injured donkey voice.

    And I loves me some Bobby Zimmerman.

  85. 85.

    Keith G

    @Corner Stone: Yeah seems like it always rains airshow weekend, thankfully not now.

    Like yourself, just enjoying what might be the best stretch of weather we’ve had down here in years. Hell, my skin’s starting to dry out.

    I’m still trying to decide who will get my vote for mayor, other than that, no problems.

  86. 86.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Corner Stone:

    I stand out a little bit because unlike a huge percentage of other posters here I was never a Republican.

    It has nothing to do with yer politics and everything to do with you being a fucking spaz.

  88. 88.

    Mike G

    Tweety and three other guys were discussing whether Obama’s election meant that racism was dead in America.

    Racism may be dead in America when we can elect to the Presidency a black, Hispanic, Asian, etc. as egregiously incompetent, incurious, stupid and surrounded by criminal thugs as GW Bush.

    I’m sitting here listening to someone named Susan Tedes singing “Don’t think twice”.

    My rule of the music business is that 95% of remakes and extended remixes suck. Usually the singer is trying to piggyback on the fame and reputation of the original for career/marketing purposes rather than having any artistic contribution to make.

  90. 90.

    dmsilev

    @dmsilev: Oh, and it’s apparently impossible to get on the ballot as a third party in Oklahoma. 100% of votes cast were either for McCain or Obama.

    -dms

  92. 92.

    burnspbesq

    @Mike G:

    My rule of the music business is that 95% of remakes and extended remixes suck.

    Shame that your dogmatic inflexibility causes you to miss out on so much good music.

  93. 93.

    dfd

    Seems to me that a map would lead one to draw geographic based conclusions. As presented, the data clearly show a difference between “blue” states that Obama carried and the gray Confederacy.

  94. 94.

    MikeJ

    Shame that your dogmatic inflexibility causes you to miss out on so much good music.

    It would be a shame if he said he ignores remakes rather than thinking the vast majority suck. If his 95% stat comes from listening to remakes he’s not displaying inflexibility but empirical data.

  95. 95.

    smiley

    @burnspbesq:

    Or are you saying that no cover can ever be artistically valid?

    Everyone does covers. My point was to ask why some performers seem to think that they can do the song better when they clearly do not. Joe Cocker redefined With A Little Help From My Friends. Great cover. Susan Tedeschi’s cover of Don’t Think Twice? is nowhere even close to the same league.

    Speaking for my self only (gack…)

  98. 98.

    smiley

    @Max:

    if you haven’t heard her “Angel from Montgomery” you are missing out.

    Better than Prine’s? Somehow I doubt that. Check out early (’70s- early ’80s) Bonnie Raitt if you like that kind of music.

  100. 100.

    burnspbesq

    @MikeJ:

    I’d want to know a bit about that sample.

    Taste isn’t empirical, even a tiny bit.

    And if you approach, say, Coltrane’s version of “My Favorite Things” with a built-in animus because he’s not Mary Martin, then you are well and truly missing the point.

  101. 101.

    inkadu

    @smiley: I can’t tell the difference between most covers and a karaoke version.

    There’s a whole genre of people with beautiful voices who sing covers. It’s the musical equivalent of the Jokers laughing gas — all the songs are beautiful, but they are all the same. It’s a genre popular with old people for whom beauty is more important than personal expression.

    Nana Mouskouri is Hitler.

  102. 102.

    burnspbesq

    @smiley:

    Park your biases at the door and just listen. Tedeschi sings the heck out of that song.

    Jesus, if this is going to turn into the pop-music equivalent of a period-instruments flame war, I am so out of here.

  103. 103.

    Mark S.

    I don’t understand the confusion about a relatively simple map (it’s just the % of white male votes), and I don’t understand MY’s conclusion. 41% of white men voted for Obama, and while not all of those guys are progressive, it hardly means there are only a handful of white liberal men out there.

  104. 104.

    inkadu

    I heard a great cover of the Stones’ “Wild Horses” by a bluegrass band. Converting to bluegrass will often get you a surprisingly good tune; and at least it’s different.

    One of the first things I did when I discovered Kazaa was download all the different versions of “Bohemian Rhapsody.” I found country covers, bluegrass covers, celtic cover, punk cover, a capella, opera… it almost proved the maxim that you can’t kill a good song, but the country cover was awful, even if it was by Rolf Harris.

  105. 105.

    AhabTRuler

    youtube seems to have scrubbed the Bonnie Raitt & Prine (or Brine) duet from the Steve Goodman Memorial concert, but that is the best version.

  106. 106.

    burnspbesq

    @inkadu:

    I guess that makes Linda Ronstadt Goebbels, and Miles Davis Himmler. And the Academy of St.-Martin-in-the-Fields is the Hitler Youth.

    I sure hope you’re being facetious.

  108. 108.

    Anne Laurie

    Either General Stuck has a stalker, or I’ve just figured out who’s running the Corner spoof. Yep, I’m slow that way.

  109. 109.

    burnspbesq

    @inkadu:

    “Wild Horses” is a perfect example. Great, great song – but written in a style for which Jagger and Richard’s voices simply aren’t suited. In the hands of Gram Parsons and Chris Hillman, whose voices are perfect for it, it is spectacular.

    The Stones’ version is a great song not done justice.

    The Flying Burrito Brothers’ version is a great record – because they bring more appropriate vocal and instrumental resources to it.

  110. 110.

    calipygian

    I heard a great cover of the Stones’ “Wild Horses” by a bluegrass band. Converting to bluegrass will often get you a surprisingly good tune; and at least it’s different.

    Im pretty convinced that you could cover any song bluegrass style and it would be good.

    I’m waiting for a bluegrass version of Lady Gaga’s “Poker Face” or Kanye West’s “Golddigger” to prove me right.

  112. 112.

    MelodyMaker

    damn, I love a good cover. Hendrix did some great Dylan and that’s as far as I’m going with that. and CSN(Y?)’s “Woodstock.” …
    Oh, and DougJ oughta like this:
    http://lnmc.crooksandliars.com/logan-murphy/cls-late-night-music-club-chet-baker — Almost Blue!
    DougJ always lights me up with the Imperial Bedroom titles.

    But I am truly offended by some of the crap that gets cranked out by the Hollywood machine. Probably because I’m white and shit.

  113. 113.

    Comrade Jake

    I wonder if we polled the BJ commentariat as to their sex and race what we’d come up with.

    I’m thinking Brick Oven Bill is definitely a latina.

  114. 114.

    MikeJ

    Im pretty convinced that you could cover any song bluegrass style and it would be good.
    …
    I’m waiting for a bluegrass version of Lady Gaga’s “Poker Face” or Kanye West’s “Golddigger” to prove me right.

    There’s a version of Gin and Juice floating around that’s at least entertaining.

    And to answer burnspbesq, I happen to love cover versions as a rule, as long as they’re significantly different from the original. I was just saying you shouldn’t say Mike G was being inflexible because he *doesn’t* like covers. You can still have an empirical sample even on things that relate solely to taste. I assumed Mike G based his dislike of covers on experience, you assumed he just didn’t give them a chance.

  115. 115.

    JD Rhoades

    @Max:

    Her name is Susan Tedeschi and if you haven’t heard her “Angel from Montgomery” you are missing out.I mean that sincerely, she’s great. Her husband is Derek Trucks, who is also rockin.

    Saw Derek (without Susan) Friday night. “Rockin'” doesn’t begin to approach just how good the guy is. Tedeschi…eh. She’s okay, but she sounds like a pale imitation of Bonnie Raiit.

  117. 117.

    jl

    This is a post-Halloween horror post, concerning fights over some befuddled Yglesias post that does not seem to understand the legend of the graph he uses, and cover songs.

    I think I will go scrub some tiles, that sounds like more fun.

    But, I agree with others that Yglesias is mis- or over interpreted the graph. Am I mistaken, or wasn’t it observed through the campaign and the election that some whites, who may not be Republican, and do not perceive themselves as being racially prejudiced, were reluctant to vote for Obama? And that is what the graphic is about, white men voting for Obama, more than it is how many liberal men there are.

    I also do not see how white men turned into rich white men in the post and some of the comments. Many white men who have problems with Obama are not at all rich. They are deluded resentful people who blame others for their problems, not the conservative swindlers who are using them. By now, after seeing many previous wedge groups being thown out of the wingnut lifeboat of purity because they would not play the perfect tool, I would think that these non rich white men would ge a clue.

    And finally, as a white man, I am sick of seeing all these dumb ignorant ultra-retro white dim bulbs on my TV. That is why I do not watch it much.

    As for Matthews, he spilled the beans that he has serious problems with women. I remember him asking some other white man how he could emotionally handle debating a woman. The non-Matthews white guy actually answered the question, which I felt was humoring and enabling Matthews. Should have just told Matthews it was idiotic question.

    OK, that is it. I am heading for the tiles. This thread scares me.

  121. 121.

    mai naem

    There is another map right next to the map being discussed, with the percentage of Obama voters in non-white males and every single state’s colors show an increase except for Wash. and Ore. Isn’t that what James is asking for?

  123. 123.

    JD Rhoades

    @calipygian:

    Im pretty convinced that you could cover any song bluegrass style and it would be good.

    I’m waiting for a bluegrass version of Lady Gaga’s “Poker Face” or Kanye West’s “Golddigger” to prove me right.

    Would you settle for some Bluegrass AC/DC in the meantime?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mU2lJKkQ04

    (don’t ask me where the video’s from)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yEi7ec4vJQ&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVMuhUBvpbk

  124. 124.

    Steeplejack

    @smiley:

    Susan Tedeschi, maybe? Damn good blues guitarist, and a pretty good singer, too.

    I take your point on her version of “Don’t Think Twice,” but in general I’ll take almost anyone’s version of a Dylan song over Dylan’s. Awesome writer/composer, not so great as an interpreter of his own songs. Notable exceptions “Lay, Lady, Lay” and “Knocking on Heaven’s Door.” (Maybe “Just Like a Woman,” although Richie Havens’s version is damn good.) All this is just my opinion, of course.

  125. 125.

    Maus

    Obviously, anyone with a brain who follows modern politics and wants to avoid the apocalypse

    There’s where it all breaks down. Brainless people who don’t follow and don’t want to avoid the apocalypse are the issue.

  126. 126.

    Steeplejack

    @inkadu:

    I heard a great cover of the Stones’ “Wild Horses” by a bluegrass band. Converting to bluegrass will often get you a surprisingly good tune; and at least it’s different.

    Went to a bluegrass festival in Atlanta years back and was stunned by a hilarious but excellent version of “I Shot the Sheriff.” Memorable, and it really worked.

  128. 128.

    slag

    I just figured that all the white guys who didn’t vote for Obama actually voted Green Party. You’re saying that’s not true?

  132. 132.

    Steeplejack

    @burnspbesq:

    I commented above before reading through all the comments, and I was subsequently shocked to see all the cover-haters. As an amateur musician, I love to do songs that I love by artists that I like, and I can’t believe the same thing isn’t true for professional musicians as well. They hear something, they respond to it, and they filter it through their sensibilities and put it back out there. Your mention of Coltrane’s take on “My Favorite Things” is a great example. (I especially love the piano/bass interplay beginning at 2:30 in this clip.)

    Our music would be much poorer without “covers.”

  134. 134.

    Steeplejack

    @MikeJ:

    There is no “too long.” It just depends on whether any of the proprietors are around and checking the holding tank.

  135. 135.

    anonevent

    @Scott de B.: Yes. I think people miss that the map is not one of percentage of white males that voted for Obama, but percentage of voters that were white males that voted for Obama. Thus, 1 minus that equals the voters who voted for someone else, mostly McCain.

  136. 136.

    Svensker

    @burnspbesq:

    I guess that makes Linda Ronstadt Goebbels, and Miles Davis Himmler. And the Academy of St.-Martin-in-the-Fields is the Hitler Youth.

    No, Academy St.Martin is too wimpy to be Hitler Youth, at least under Neville, the conductor who doesn’t understand passion, intensity or power. He makes Vivaldi calm and boring — what the hell is wrong with that guy? Well, that a massive dose of testosterone wouldn’t cure?

  137. 137.

    Svensker

    @Steeplejack:

    Awesome writer/composer, not so great as an interpreter of his own songs. Notable exceptions “Lay, Lady, Lay” and “Knocking on Heaven’s Door.

    You’re right, but Warren Zevon’s cover of Knockng done not long before he died is killer.

    Covers can be really good. What a dull musical world it would be without them.

  144. 144.

    Svensker

    @burnspbesq:

    Whose Brandenburgs do you prefer?

    Oddly, I don’t have a favorite. The CD I have now — can’t remember who the conductor is — is meh. I’d have to go digging around in my music piles to see if there’s a baroque conductor who’s better than others…I just know that if neville Mariner did it, it’s flaccid.

  145. 145.

    inkadu

    @burnspbesq: I like good covers… and that means, at minimum, that they have to be sung distinctively, preferably with different orchestration, harmony or rhythm.

    Too many covers are just re-hashes … everything that made the same song popular with a lacquer job of something more modern; its usually sung by someone in a fairly straight-forward manner. It adds nothing to the original song.

    That said, I wouldn’t want to hear Madonna cover Tom Traubert’s Blues, even though it would add something new… a whole new way that song would make me want to kill myself.

    (And speaking of great covers and Tom Waits… Tori Amos’ cover of Time is mind blowing)

    And there’s an entire bluegrass cover of Pink Floyd’s The Wall out there (not to mention Austin Lounge Lizard’s Dark Side of the Moon).

    @Svensker: Vivaldi in anything other than A415 is revisionist crap! That’s right. I said it. We were all thinking it.

  147. 147.

    burnspbesq

    @Svensker:

    Well, yee-ha! Went on the DGG website, and the recording I bought on vinyl when I was in college – Munich Bach Orchestra/Richter – is still in the catalog on CD. If anything, it’s a little raw and over-the-top, but still sounds awfully good to these ears.

  148. 148.

    burnspbesq

    @inkadu:

    Well, I guess we are going to have a period-instruments flame war, after all. ;-)

    The only recording of the Four Seasons I own is a very recent one – a star-vehicle for Sarah Chang. It’s beautifully played and beautifully recorded – ear candy of the highest quality. Am I curious to hear it played on period instruments and following performance practices of the time it was written? Yeah, I’m curious – but even if I find a period recording I love, I’m not tossing my Sarah Chang. Sometimes you want an intellectual challenge, and sometimes you want ear candy.

  155. 155.

    Libertini

    @Violet:

    If it’s not that bad, it’s probably all in his mind and might just be his hormones.

    Loving you at this moment.

    I should NOT say this, but I would also suggest that pharma companies come up with hormonal treatments for men’s health “issues.” Even if they end up killing tens (or hundreds) of thousands of them before we learn any better.

    I have had an unfortunate number of men suggest hormone therapy for me when I rejected their sexual advances. When I explain that with my family history of breast cancer, HRT is not ony non-desirable, but wouldn’t be prescribed for me by most competent doctors, their response is, but don’t you want quality of life?

    Hmmm, sex with you + a future with breast cancer = quality of life; no sex & a cancer free future= lower quality of life.

    And men are supposed to be the logical ones.

    The (white) male slant is everywhere you turn.

  156. 156.

    Nick

    @DougJ: I’m reasonably certain white men who didn’t vote for Obama didn’t vote for Gloria LaRiva or Cyntha McKinney either.

  157. 157.

    NobodySpecial

    I’m with inkadu, a cover is great when the artist brings something of themselves to it. A cover is worthless if it’s a perfect copy with different vocals. I’d link up some good ones, but I’m at work.

    That said, Biz Markie doing Bennie and the Jets is an experience.

  158. 158.

    bjacques

    @ 111 Comrade Marshal Winfield Stuck:

    For the victory!

    John Cale’s cover of Leonard Cohen’s “Hallelujah”
    Nick Cave’s cover of “In the Ghetto”
    MX-80 Sound’s cover of the Halloween theme
    Elvis Costello’s cover of “Shipbuilding”
    Seu Jorge’s cover of “Life on Mars” (in Portuguese!)

    just off the top of my head

    For a laugh, KMFDM’s cover of Donny Osmond’s “Crazy Horses”

  160. 160.

    Cerberus

    Very late to the party, but I wanted to say, hell yes!

    That’s been the huge problem we’ve been dealing with, where the culture is increasingly moving away from white men but the culutral narrative and power centers are still dominated by white male voices.

    And yeah, white men are traditionally more conservative because they have “more to lose” by the push towards equality in the loss of unearned privilege.

    Now smart white men get that that loss improves their lives in a million other ways and isn’t all that big of a loss, but the ones who aren’t smart get frantic about it. In general, there is no group in America more whiny and unable to take a punch than white men and more susceptible to crazy right-wing memes and the numbers in voting habits by race in every election pretty much illustrate that.

    But in general, it makes me feel good about things. All of everything is leaving that group behind and the “stupid white men” segment is becoming so small that it’s becoming increasingly difficult for them to pretend they speak for America. See the problems in the MSM and the fact that the democratic presidential field had both a woman and a black man as the two front-runners. I suspect the Obama election is already shaking up racial mix-up in a lot of traditional power players as they get this giant wake-up call and that will only increase the drift. It is good to be on the right side of history.

  161. 161.

    Cerberus

    Very late to the party, but I wanted to say, hell yes!

    That’s been the huge problem we’ve been dealing with, where the culture is increasingly moving away from white men but the culutral narrative and power centers are still dominated by white male voices.

    And yeah, white men are traditionally more conservative because they have “more to lose” by the push towards equality in the loss of unearned privilege.

    Now smart white men get that that loss improves their lives in a million other ways and isn’t all that big of a loss, but the ones who aren’t smart get frantic about it. In general, there is no group in America more whiny and unable to take a punch than white men and more susceptible to crazy right-wing memes and the numbers in voting habits by race in every election pretty much illustrate that.

    But in general, it makes me feel good about things. All of everything is leaving that group behind and the “stupid white men” segment is becoming so small that it’s becoming increasingly difficult for them to pretend they speak for America. See the problems in the MSM and the fact that the democratic presidential field had both a woman and a black man as the two front-runners. I suspect the Obama election is already shaking up racial mix-up in a lot of traditional power players as they get this giant wake-up call and that will only increase the drift. It is good to be on the right side of history.

  163. 163.

    Svensker

    @inkadu:

    Vivaldi in anything other than A415 is revisionist crap! That’s right. I said it. We were all thinking it.

    Your post got me searching around, and I found the blog of the Philadelphia Baroque Orchestra, A415. Great stuff. Thanks for that! I’m listening to Bach’s Orchestral Suite 2 in A minor done for oboe right now.

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