I have to admit that the teabagger candidate in NY-23 is polling better than I expected he would. Though, in retrospect, it makes a reasonable amount of sense: the teabag movement appeals largely to the old and the district is old. But I’m wondering if there’s even more to it. It’s my sense that the basic tenets of teabaggerism are:
- Low taxes!
- Small government!
- Get off my lawn!
Conspicuously absent are
- Jesus!
- Fight the new Hitler!
In particular, the Dick Armey outfit FreedomWorks seems to be about promoting freedom (I guess from taxes and regulations) here as opposed to freedom (to be a quasi-western American puppet state) abroad. And they don’t seem to talk about Jesus much. Obviously, all kinds of crazy people showed up at the 9/12 festivities, mean of them Hitler-obsessed and heavy into Jesus. But some of that is just that, to paraphrase James Carville, if you drag a Fox News crew through a retirement home, there’s no telling what you’ll find.
I think that a Jesus-reduced, Hitler-reduced conservative message might work reasonably well in some parts of the country, including the rural northeast. It’s probably too anti-union to really work in New York State at large and too anti-immigrant to really work nationally, but if teabagging is traditional wingerism with more Rand and less religion, more Galt and less GWOT, it may end up less fringey that I originally thought.
Tom Johnson
On the other hand, it’s worth remembering that the 23rd is a district that hasn’t voted fro a Democrat since before the Civil War. The race may indicate nothing but that bored political media made it out to be more of a contest than it was ever going to be.
r€nato
I think the Hitler stuff is merely being hidden under a rock for now because the results of carrying out that philosophy are a bit fresh on everyone’s minds, to put it politely.
r€nato
As far as the Jesus stuff… I think I’d guess that FreeDumbWorks intentionally did not pursue participation from the anti-choice wackos… so yes, that’s smart of them.
But don’t think they wouldn’t re-activate the Terry Schiavo Brigade if necessary…
aimai
Correct.
aimai
DougJ
But don’t think they wouldn’t re-activate the Terry Schiavo Brigade if necessary…
They certainly would. But I think that’s not what their primary interest is.
Paul L.
NO, Double Down. The Teabagger is going down in flames.
To quote Kos
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
I think you mean “many of them”.
jibeaux
O/T but I thought this was funny.
On topic, eh, I still think they’re terribly fringey. I read that focus report that came out that got blogged about a lot — was it New American Century or some bland name group like that, can’t remember — and basically the effect you get is “paranoid schizophrenic” needing a “daily regimen of antipsychotic medication”.
cleek
Palin’s stuck her ass into this one, right?
well, you don’t get Palin without a heavy dollop of HitlerSoshulizmTerrorist!
keestadoll
Google term entered: “Referendum on Barack Obama” search results: 2,180,000. Someone needs a Thesuarus.
inkadu
Dude, this country has been flirting with fascism since the 20’s. The teabaggers represent a movement that while activated by conservatives for cynical purpose is an integral part of the American political fabric. The beast is there to awaken.
Violet
They may have a few places where they can win without Jesus being a main topic of conversation, but overall they won’t GOTV of the teabaggers on a national level without a healthy dose of Jesus. If a candidate is perceived to be not Christian enough, they won’t go for him.
Jesus and teabagging will always be intertwined.
jwb
Really, it’s just not a big deal no matter which way this election turns out, as far as the district itself is concerned. The proof will come in 2010, when Hoffman (or Owens) has to run in the district under reasonably normal conditions, and my expectation is that whoever wins today will lose in 2010 (or perhaps 2012).
Balconesfault
As long as they don’t ever have to … ohh, govern anything … the teabagger candidates have a certain appeal to them.
Right now the sum value of electing any Republican is to give additional leverage to Blue Dog Democrats.
Uloborus
Mmmm. Well, it sounds like they’re trying to pretend they’re NOT teabaggers, really, just, you know, actual conservatives. But even if they can keep that mask up locally, can they keep it up nationally? I mean, the whole thing about the movement is that the loonies are enforcing ideological purity, and their principles are flat-out paranoid schizophrenia.
me
But I thought Rand was the chosen one?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Paul L.: Except, Paul, the previous US history here fits more: Southern Democrats insisted that the Douglas include in the Democratic plank the right to own slaves. Douglas told them that it would only alienate the Northern Democrats and refused and would cause him to lose. Since he wouldn’t, the Southern Dems introduced their own candidate into the race, and a Senator from Illinois won the presidency. The Southern states decided that they should secede, the Civil War started, and they ultimately lost, though not completely for 140 years. Don’t you just love being a descendant of this group.
DanF
I don’t know … This district has been Republican since 1880. 18-freaking-80. Having an R after your name will go a long way in a poll in such a district. Remember, most folks aren’t engaged to the level we are – politics is our hobby. Most folks don’t even read their local paper – let alone the editorial. The fact that the Dem had a remote shot says something.
neill
What inkadu sez…
all the shit the right wing extremists dont care about (be it lovin’ jeezus or hatin’ gays or wev) can get compartmentalized as the whole mob builds on a variety of hates and fears — ya just pick from column “hate” and column “fear” and join the mob.
Senyordave
It seems to me that the best weapon to fight teabaggery would be an honest debate, starting with the key question I always ask my conservative friends who think their taxes are too high:
What would you cut?
I notice that is absent when you read the pundits or watch the Sunday morning shows.
I can bet that the wingnuts in Oklahoma (pretty much the whole state) don’t want FEMA cut because they want their aid next time some twisters hit, they certainly don’t want their farm subsidies cut, and don’t even think of cutting aid for transportation for their highways.
I guess they’d be all right with cutting mass transit aid and money to enforce civil rights.
Tonal Crow
Teabaggers are about “small government” in the same way that Dick Cheney is about honesty. These people have never met authoritarianism (e.g., warrantless wiretapping, indefinite detention, slapdash judicial process) that they didn’t like. The only “government” that they want “small” is the government that prevents big bidness from grinding citizens into Pullmanville-style pulp.
Brick Oven Bill
No shit.
One difference between the Boston Tea Party and the Iron Teabaggers is this:
Samuel Adams (not the beer), spoke to seven thousand Americans at Faneuil Hall. Out of these seven thousand, between 30 and 130 men did the actual teabagging.
Glenn Beck has an audience of somewhere around ten million (growing rapidly), and a good percentage, at least hundreds of thousands, probably millions are doing the actual teabagging.
Behold Kim.
MikeJ
I really, really hope Tim Eyman’s latest nonsense goes down in flames today. Another one of those Colorado style “no spending increases ever, mandatory cuts tie the hands of elected officials” bills.
I get the impression he’s losing what traction he had here in WA. All of the ads against this bill called it “Tim Eyman’s bill”.
jwb
@Senyordave: Oh, they always have an easy answer to that one: “waste.”
burnspbesq
@Senyordave:
I’m guessing you get a lot of blank stares when you ask that question, followed by incoherent ramblings about illegal immigrants, Caddy-driving welfare queens, and God knows what else.
Honest debate about spending priorities? Not in any of our lifetimes, I’m guessing. What country do you think this is, anyway? Denmark?
Derelict
@Senyordave:
The typical wing-nut has no clue as to what makes up the federal budget. They’re all convinced that 50% goes to black welfare queens, 50% goes to foreign aid to help all those “other” people, and another 50% goes to the NEA to fund gay abortions. Defense spending is, somehow, not really part of the budget. Nor are any of the programs that they like such as highways, farm aid, or transportation.
So when you ask them “What would you cut?” they will answer without hesitation, “The welfare budget because it’s driving us broke! And those entitlements that go to people other than me!”
Cat Lady
At some point even the teabagging rubes will start to wonder when the great Galt’s Gulch migration begins. Shouldn’t we be wondering where Hannity and Limbaugh and Blankfein and all of the other cheerleaders for unbridled capitalism disappeared to by now?
ChrisS
Last night I saw the same commercial for Hoffman about 20 times with Fred Thompson saying, “Doug Hoffman is like us, he’s not a career politician, he’s a citizen that will go home when the job is done.”
For fucksakes, Fred.
If the GOP could get a dog to nudge placards that spell out, “lower taxes, smaller government, self reliance” in this district they’d get 45% of the vote. The 23rd has been reliably republican for 130 years despite, of course, the significant alterations to the GOP political philosophy. Most of these people still think they’re voting for Eisenhower and can’t understand why they don’t have jobs anymore (Unions!).
MattF
I’d never assume that Jesus is only a bit player in Upstate New York. The Second Great Awakening was centered there. And, as Wikipedia notes, salvation-bound New Yorkers went down South to proselytize– and succeeded. Upstate is a world of its own.
inkadu
@keestadoll: And only 304,000 for “referendum on george bush,” and that after 8 years AND losing the house and the senate during his terms.
@neill: Good to see ya visiting from WM.
Sometimes I feel paranoid, but I think it’s just because nobody really considers fascism or fascism-lite a real possibility. Well, it does happen. It happens in other countries, and it can happen here. In fact, given our history, our place in the world right now, and the trends in our politics, the trend in demographics*, I’d say the odds aren’t all rosy for the democratic experiment. I definitely think we’d need some sort of shock — like another serious terror attack, declaration of war (and maybe even rough economic times) — but the pieces are in place: an extremist Republican party, an active but dedicated minority of teabaggers and theocrats, religious extremists, a unifying political, religious and cultural philosophy, tacit support for violence, extremist rhetoric and, probably most important, a supportive (or complacent) media.
Someone make a good argument about why I shouldn’t be at least a little concerned.
* Demographics — Backlash of whitey holding onto power while he still controls it levers.
camchuck
@Brick Oven Bill:
re: teabagging
Way to own the term, BOB.
Atanarjuat
Dougj, the tone of your post sounds like you not only think that the carpet-teabagging candidate will win, but that the less Jesus, less Hitler right-wing astroturf strategy may likely result in more conservative gains in the northeast.
That’s pretty farking depressing.
-A
The Grand Panjandrum
But the most fervent and committed purveyors of teabaggery are also Christianists. Most of the leadership are Christianists. They always reveals themselves for what they are: Moral Police. It is in their nature, and they have never been successful at hiding who they are. Short term they can succeed at winning elections. Long term it is death for them.
ChrisS
@MattF:
It’s weird, I’ve been seeing a lot of those suburban-style mega churches springing up around Syracuse. Which makes me wonder where they’re getting their parishioners. It’s not like a person changes religion a lot and your church is typically the one you grow up with. Upstate NY isn’t exactly a hotbed of population growth attracting newcomers who don’t have a family church here. So people must be leaving their old churches in droves to join the new movement.
Marked Hoosier
I don’t get what we are supposed to learn about a republican district most likely electing a republican. If the Dem won, then it would be a story, what with it being republican since Jesus was born, but who decided that it was supposed to somehow represent the feelings on the current administration???
Oh yea, our “liberal” media. Silly me.
inkadu
@Tonal Crow:
Fixed.
kay
I think Glenn Beck is really religious. He’s just completely dishonest, so you have to listen a little bit to pick it up, and weed out the wall of sound and quotes from the Founders that he covers his religiosity in.
Hear it once, it’s loud and clear, and it permeates every sermon.
He’s a slippery Jerry Falwell.
Brick Oven Bill
Another difference is that the tax on tea was 10% in 1773. Tea is an item one sips, when he feels the desire.
In America-2009, the tax on a man’s livelihood can be well over 50%.
The Sixteenth Amendment first allowed government to levy an income tax. This happened in 1913.
Blankfein is the Obama Administration, in case you haven’t noticed, Cat Lady.
anonevent
@Paul L.: Except, Paul, the previous US history here fits more: Southern Democrats insisted that the Douglas include in the Democratic plank the right to own slaves. Douglas told them that it would only alienate the Northern Democrats and refused and would cause him to lose. Since he wouldn’t, the Southern Dems introduced their own candidate into the race, and a Senator from Illinois won the presidency. The Southern states decided that they should secede, the Civil War started, and they ultimately lost, though not completely for 140 years. Don’t you just love being a descendant of this group.
(Tried to use a new name, Belafon, since I am a programmer, but it seems to get stuck in moderation.)
inkadu
@inkadu: Do not use asterisks. It confuses wordpress.
Reason60
@Senyordave:
“It seems to me that the best weapon to fight teabaggery would be an honest debate, starting with the key question I always ask my conservative friends who think their taxes are too high:
What would you cut?”
Funny you should say that- I wrote a diary entry over at RedState, asking this very question- I laid out the budget numbers for FY2009 and put forward the idea that (conservatives) should propose a balanced budget, and suggest to the nation budget areas to cut;
What I got was silence- not even arguments or flaming, just silence.
This is why the Tea Party won’t exist for long in its current form- it is a mass of inchoate anger, unfocused and contradictory; eventually someone will channel it toward some goal. What that is, I am not sure.
Brick Oven Bill
The Obama Administration is the warrantless wiretap Administration, in case you haven’t noticed, inkadu.
Koz
Uhhh, no. The only reason the Tea Partiers look old to you is because we are in the middle of the health care debate and the Democratic plans are funding in substantial part by cutting Medicare.
Actually, the coming conservative resurgence will soon be among 45-yr olds and younger (if it isn’t already). The ones who supported Obama in the last election didn’t quite get the fact that very very few people are actually winners in the welfare state lottery. To the extent that the welfare state does work it mitigates the loss and privation for those who are at the end of their rope.
But hard as it is for liberals to believe sometimes, some people actually intend to succeed in life. So for as much as those of us on the Right like to make fun of Pres. Obama as Hopey McChangePants, in fact we are the only ones who can offer real hope for America as a whole.
inkadu
@kay: The first two of Glenn Beck’s “principles” are:
I think that qualifies him as religious.
Short Glenn Beck: Do you see that city on the hill? Shiny shiny!
MaximusNYC
There’s another major ingredient to teabaggery: nativism, i.e., “white America for the white Americans!” In the words of Uncle Pat: “America was once their country. They sense they are losing it. And they are right.”
This doesn’t manifest itself in outright Aryan Nation/KKK fashion at most of the tea parties. But there is a huge seething cauldron of anti-Mexican, anti-Muslim, and (semi-concealed) anti-black feeling in this movement.
kay
I preferred the Moral Majority preachers to Beck-type preachers. They put it right out there, instead of cloaking fundamentalist religion in quotes from Thomas Jefferson.
I assume that approach is no longer marketable. It wasn’t polling well.
ruemara
Never underestimate the stupidity of the american republican bovine. I don’t and I’m often quite surprised at how much worse it actually can get. These people will vote for a republican even if he’s standing there shooting them in the face. “Musta been my fault for not dodging the birdshot!”
cmohrnc
A movement doesn’t need to be “fringe” in numbers to still be hopelessly short of constituting anything remotely near a governing majority. “Fringe” to me means that the numbers or influence of a group are so hopelessly out-of-step with the members of any viable governing majority that the majority may flirt with seeming to support some of the fringe’s ideas to reinforce their support from such folks, they may throw them some bones here and there, but whenever they get too far along with actually embracing fringe causes, it sets off enough warning bells within the complacent majority of the electorate that the momentaryily governing coalition finds itself headed for political trouble in deep waters, often faster than they realize (see, e.g. the Terry Shiavo fiasco where the GOP over-indulged the extreme “lifers” in their coalition).
Democrats and progressives are hardly immune from this same phoenomena of how to deal successfully with more extreme fringe members of their coalition (e.g the more overtly anti-capitalist fringe), although at the moment the dems main problem from a governing standpoint is too-tepidly indulging their more status-quo establishment stodgy members (e.g. blue dogs) rather than their more extreme fringe among their more progressive wing. However, the fringe on the left (like the Teabaggers on the right) do create outsize amounts of spectacle and noise, and create an attractive target for their opposition to attempt to paint and characterize the whole governing coalition with.
Teabaggers ARE the extremist fringe of the GOP party – the core reason they are fighting everything Obama so hard and insisting that the GOP leadership play along with this strategy, is that they recognize that to the extent Obama succeeds with HC reform, foreign policy, the economy etc, this represents a likely permanent marginalization of their way of thinking for how this country ought to be run, which they see as a coherent vision, even though more sanely pragmatic folks see how poorly it works out in practice, and to the extent it does, only tangibly benefits limited subclasses of the population.
jwb
DougJ, I’m actually surprised that Hoffman’s polling surprises you. Assuming the polls at this point are of likely voters rather than the district’s actual preferences, there’s nothing really all that surprising about Hoffman polling well right now since the teabaggers are the most highly motivated voters this cycle and it’s supposedly a low-turnout election where highly motivated trumps everything else. Scozzafava’s endorsement is really a mixed bag—it’s certainly an indicator of the disarray of the GOP party in NY; but it’s as likely to spur apathetic voters who are nevertheless motivated by authoritarian resentment to vote for Hoffman as it is to get those old time Republicans who under normal circumstances would never vote for a Democrat to vote for Owens.
kay
@inkadu:
Same shit, different package. I’m glad he’s banking the profits directly, instead of laundering them through a non-profit church, but I’ll take Falwell over Beck any day of the week. Falwell wasn’t hiding the ball.
MH
OT, but I’m looking forward to adding “our patience is not finite” to the Lexicon.
http://tbogg.firedoglake.com/2009/11/02/death-before-diagnosis/
General Winfield Stuck
@Koz:
So you’re not against government run health care, it’s just not the right government run health care. Cool.
The irony runs deep
The lies deeper still
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Violet:
WWJTbg
(Who Would Jesus Teabag?)
ruemara
@Koz:
It’s like all you’re doing there is abusing words. Shame on you, word molester.
inkadu
@Koz:
“Intend to do better, America,” is not a policy proposal.
Violet
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
Ha! Maybe a lexicon entry?
Steaming Pile
@Brick Oven Bill: Uh, no. The DC fire department (or whoever it was) estimated the DC crowd at 70,000. Tops. That’s all Glenn Beck can manage.
By contrast, the anti-war protests prior to the invasion of Iraq were ten times as large. The crowd of well-wishers who came to President Obama’s inauguration was even bigger than that. Compared with that, Glenn Beck is a carpenter bee chewing a neat 1/4 inch hole in the eaves of your house. Big and fierce-looking, but lacking a stinger.
MaximusNYC
@kay and @inkadu:
Beck is actually a convert to Mormonism. That may be why he doesn’t talk about religion more — the Mormon-phobic evangelicals would be put off if he made too big a deal about this.
DougJ
DougJ, I’m actually surprised that Hoffman’s polling surprises you.
The part of the district I am from is probably younger than the north country. I doubt he’s polling as well where I’m from (at least relative to rej numbers).
El Cid
It does make a difference that you’re talking about upstate NY versus the Old Confederacy.
ruemara
I wonder how many teabaggers would even get your title? I find political jebus worshippers have limited connection with him outside a ballot box.
jibeaux
Is it wrong that I laughed at the Onion this a.m.?
Balconesfault
@ChrisS:
Those mega-churches are monster community centers, with gyms and schools and performing arts centers and such … which I’d imagine there’s plenty of reason to appreciate during a Syracuse winter.
Citizen_X
@Koz:
Oh, fer Christ’ sake: Medicare and Social Security are middle class entitlements. That means tens of millions (hundreds of millions?) of Americans will end up using them at some point in their lives. That’s why they’re politically untouchable.
kay
@MaximusNYC:
I think he talks about religion constantly. I just think he’s dishonest about presenting what is standard right wing religious fundamentalism as the Federalist Papers.
I’ve been listening for a little while. He was actually more overt when he was less profitable, back in the CNN days. I think he adjusted the message.
His sermons on family life are interesting, but they’re not new, and they don’t have anything to do with the legal or procedural structure of this country. The Founders were concerned with process, although ideologues of every stripe read all kinds of meaning into their design.
Corner Stone
I’d never thought of it that way. Excellent analysis.
bemused
Talking points has a great video compilation of the many Fox segments reporting unequivocally (bald faced lying) that Scozzafava was dropping out to support Hoffman. Stupendous oops. Even some fervent Fox fans have got to have a sneaking suspicion that Fox is playing them for idiots. Or maybe not.
I agree with Booman’s take on the R party. “Have you ever watched a dog chase a car & wondered what they would do with it if they ever caught it?” Conservatives are going to do what they’ve always done when they had power..instead of doing something about the country’s problems, they’ll run up huge deficits because they’ll spend tons of money from federal programs but refuse to pay for them by raising revenues.
Andrew
I think we just need to introduce the New York Republicans to some of their deep south brethren. That will make them quickly reconsider their party affiliation.
jwb
@inkadu: Everyone should be a little concerned and be keeping eyes and ears open, but I’ll not be worried until I see the under 30 crowd joining the teabaggers in large numbers. But so far I see no evidence that what @Koz claimed is anything more than a fantasy.
Koz
““Intend to do better, America,” is not a policy proposal.”
No it’s not, but the intention to make something of ourselves with the one precious life each one of us has, is a motivation that underlies a hundred policy proposals and worth at least that many.
In very important ways, giving that up is the cost of being a liberal. As that becomes more and more clear our team does better and better.
Mnemosyne
@Koz:
My mother had every intention of living to a ripe old age. Unfortunately, she died of breast cancer before she was 40. My brother never intended to spend his life as a partial paraplegic, but a woman who ran a stoplight put an end to that.
You can “intend” to succeed all you want, but that won’t mean shit if a drunk driver crosses the center line and hits you head-on. But I’m guessing you’re one of those idiots who thinks that only bad people have accidents or get cancer and so of course that could never happen to you or one of your children.
Balconesfault
@Koz:
But those who win are the Lucky Duckies!
Brick Oven Bill
Hey Steaming Pile, Glenn Beck was not in Washington, that was pretty much spontaneous. And, in case you didn’t notice, the spokesman for the Washington firefighters represents a government union, not like that would affect his perception, or counting, or anything.
Plato’s Second Understanding is that mathematics gives us the power of perception.
Millions.
Including Julia.
Join us.
General Winfield Stuck
Well, maybe. We will have to wait and see. But with Wingnut Godfather Dick Armey and his Texas Mafia taking the lead, pure meanness will likely be the first (and last) plank in their platform.
General Winfield Stuck
Don’t think so, comrade.
Morbo
I dunno; seems to me that going on Glenn Beck and getting his seal of approval is a pretty good implicit “fight the new Hitler” signal. Granted he pretty much just smiled and nodded as Glenn fed him inane questions; maybe he has never watched Glenn’s show before.
And considering that the wedges used to separate him from Scozzafava were abortion and gay marriage, I have a hard time not seeing Jesus in there as well. At the same time it is definitely true that the movement at large has a lot less religiosity than we’re accustomed to seeing over the last few years of the GOP. Take it where you can get it I guess.
Koz
“Oh, fer Christ’ sake: Medicare and Social Security are middle class entitlements. That means tens of millions (hundreds of millions?) of Americans will end up using them at some point in their lives. That’s why they’re politically untouchable.”
Well yes, that’s the world we lived through the first half of 2008. A lot of people of all ages would like have somebody else help us out with our retirement and health care as we grow older. But that looks a lot different coming at the expense of the existence of the American economy as we know it.
When push comes to shove, we find that we can take care of our own retirement and health care if we have to.
inkadu
@Koz: the intention to make something of ourselves with the one precious life each one of us has, is a motivation that underlies a hundred policy proposals and worth at least that many.
Really? Ok. Shoot. I’ll do the first two for you, to make it easier:
1. Lower taxes.
2. Eliminate regulations.
Ok, you do the next 98.
kay
@Morbo:
They just toned down the overt religiosity because it wasn’t polling well. Dick Armey is no fool.
Xenos
@El Cid: I had not realized just how big, how demographically diffuse, and how remote NY-23 is.
Anybody know if this area had a lot of support for the Ant-Masonic Party? The rural NY Teabaggers seem cut from the same cloth, if not their direct political descendants.
This district is more of a dog’s breakfast of leftover real estate than any sort of coherent region with a clear political culture. Plattsburg and Oswego and the outskirts of Greater Schenectady? And enough of the Adirondack park to fit Massachusetts into? I doubt there is much to predict or conclusions to be made from such an oddball election.
Sue
Re the “What would you cut” comments:
You’re forgetting a big one. It applies to the feds but the best examples come at a local level.
“What would you cut?”
“Well I would cut those teachers’ salaries. They’re overpaid and you can tell they’re overpaid because they drive nice cars, and my taxpayer money is going to their union dues. And those maintenance workers who just stand around all the time, and let’s not forget those office workers who aren’t nice enough to me and don’t hop to it when I tell them I pay taxes and need what I need now. Why won’t they work for less? Lazy civil servants, sucking us dry, that’s what they are.”
Same thing at the federal level, just more generalized.
kay
O/T but interesting development in what is a continuing battle.
I continue to believe Holder is the Real Thing as an AG. This makes me a Holderbot :)
Gates is a good ally to have in this.
WASHINGTON — The defense secretary and attorney general are opposing an attempt to prohibit Guantanamo detainees from having civilian trials in the United States.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Attorney General Eric Holder said in an Oct. 30 letter that they want the option of having trials by military commission or civilian courts.
A measure sponsored by Republican Sens. Lindsey Graham and John McCain and Independent Joe Lieberman would block the Justice Department from spending any funds to prosecute detainees from the Cuban island jail.
inkadu
@Xenos: I can’t see the words “dog’s breakfast” without thinking of Kurt Vonnegut’s description of the human brain as three-and-a-half pounds of dog breakfast. Carry on.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Koz: I saw what you did there.
Balconesfault
@Koz:
Until someone actually, oh, gets sick … or the GE Capital account (non-FDIC) that you have much of your retirement funds tied up in craters because TARP isn’t passed.
LarryB
@Brick Oven Bill: That’s cool. As for me, I just had an excellent candied ginger scone from The Creamery in San Francisco. Nice taste and a good crumb (crunchy and dense, not pouf-pouf).
Svensker
@Koz:
Are you talking about apple pie or lemon meringue? Cuz your words are not making any sense to me.
Fulcanelli
@Koz: Adherents to your sacred right wing, supply side ideology had a generation of almost unfettered political dominance to prove it was the “One, True Way” that would lead America and the world at large to the Promised Land.
And what happened?
You killed the golden capitalistic goose with greed and turned your backs on everything genuine, authentic conservatives ever believed in with your war mongering, bullshit, divisive cultural issues and economic malfeasance which is why they have and still desert your party in droves.
And America suffers like it does every time your kind get a hold of wheel. It never worked for anybody but the rich and never will, you fucking clown.
Steaming Pile
@Brick Oven Bill: Spontaneous in the sense that Beck and everybody else on Fox Noise has been pumping the 912 event for most of the summer with the help of Freedom Works (Dick Armey and his army of millionaires). Yeah, real spontaneous. If you say so. Just keep believing that.
inkadu
@Fulcanelli: Fulcanelli, huh? Sounds like an anarchist name to me.
Steaming Pile
@inkadu:
1. Lower taxes while continuing to spend like drunken sailors. Yeah, that works.
2. Ask anybody who has gotten burned in the housing bubble and/or ensuing recession how well reducing government regulation (for its own sake) works.
I’ll guess the other 98 policy brain farts have something to do with turning America into some kind of Libertarian hell hole that would make Somalia seem like paradise.
Koz
“Are you talking about apple pie or lemon meringue? Cuz your words are not making any sense to me.”
Ok, well what part aren’t you getting?
anonevent
Yes, I do, thank you. But you know what, it was really, really counterproductive for me to grow up and have to deal with the fact that I was in a family that couldn’t afford a computer, or to buy books, while classmates bought this kind of stuff and ignored them. It was also counterproductive having to join the military, which I was definitely not cut out for, because I couldn’t afford to take the time off during college to regroup (I discovered too late that you do have to put the books down sometimes and have fun, even if you have no money), when I watched friends take 5 or 6 years to finish. It was a waste of my years, a slot in the Navy, and my not contributing to the economy because I grew up in a family that didn’t have money. (I now make quite a bit more than my parents did at my age.)
The problem, Koz, is that it’s counterproductive to make it hard for people to succeed. It’s counterproductive to make it so that only the rich can go to school without working multiple jobs or having to spend 10 years paying off college bills. It’s counterproductive to make people join the military just to get a college education. Look at Paris Hilton. Can you tell your kids “When you grow up, make sure you’re part of a rich family so that you can do nearly nothing and be famous for it?”
Sorry, Koz, we liberals want people to succeed as well. I want the best heart surgeon there is when I need the surgery. But we don’t want people to have to succeed in spite of the obstacles they face. It’s far better if society helps everyone reach their potential.
Steaming Pile
@Xenos: Sounds about right. The 23rd is pretty much what’s left after you finish gerrymandering the rest of the state.
Martin
I still don’t get how this strategy works.
According to R2K, Obama’s approval in the northeast is 84%. His disapproval is 5%, 11% undecided. How on earth does the social!sm/new-Hitler meme gain any traction with a 5% disapproval rating – unless every last one of those people happen to live in NY-23.
Go after Pelosi and Congress, sure, but Obama? That seems like a surefire loser based on the broad attitudes.
SteveCan
This is not the “CHANGE” we voted for.
We voted for more jobs, not less.
We voted for less government, not more.
We voted to get things fixed, not blame others.
We voted for less government waste, not more.
We voted for real healthcare reform, not PelosiCare.
We voted to safeguard the borders, not open them wider.
We voted for civility, not the demeaning attitude we have seen from you.
We voted for a balanced budget, not budget busters like TARP & Cap & Trade.
Koz
“You killed the golden capitalistic goose with greed and turned your backs on everything genuine, authentic conservatives ever believed in with your war mongering, bullshit, divisive cultural issues and economic malfeasance which is why they have and still desert your party in droves.”
Uhhh no. The Obama Administration (continuing and extending the policies of GWB) is spending our way into bankruptcy.
We, as Republicans and conservatives, have the way out. Or, you can just keep collecting welfare, at least until the checks bounce.
Svensker
@Koz:
The nouns and the verbs.
Xenos
@Koz: It means you have been ‘plonked’ by that commenter.
Koz
“This is not the “CHANGE” we voted for.
We voted for more jobs, not less.
……….”
You got suckered.
Steaming Pile
@anonevent: I can predict the next RW counterargument, that overcoming obstacles build character. While true, we really oughtn’t be in the business of creating yet more obstacles. That’s just silly.
Now let’s see if I beat the RW ninnies to the punch.
Xenos
Whatever you like, buddy. Reality apparently left you behind some time ago. At this point you are just being humored, ignored, or ridiculed here.
inkadu
@SteveCan: And to think you wasted all your time going door-to-door handing out Obama buttons and fliers. I feel for you, man.
Also: “more jobs, not
lessfewer” You’re welcome.Koz
“The problem, Koz, is that it’s counterproductive to make it hard for people to succeed. It’s counterproductive to make it so that only the rich can go to school without working multiple jobs or having to spend 10 years paying off college bills.”
Hopefully pretty soon you’ll figure out that you’re playing for the wrong team. It’s not us who makes it hard for people to succeed. Liberalism is like cholesterol in the arteries of our economy and culture. It makes the normal progress of life harder and harder until the patient dies.
inkadu
@Koz: Still waiting for your 98 policy proposals. I’m guessing it’s taking some time. 98 is a lot, but not when you consider the one precious life they are serving (yours).
SGEW
Sure is trollerific in here today.
Btw, great post title, Doug.
Xenos
@SteveCan: If you thought you were getting those things from Obama within one year of the election, you are stupid beyond words. Obama essentially promised a return to normality. After eight years of plunder, criminality, and incompetence you ought to give Obama, and the democratic Congress, a few years to turn the ship around.
Whining that you have not gotten your “change” yet only indicates that you do not understand what is going on, or that you never paid attention until Beck started singing your song, or that you are a troll. Or all of the above.
Mark
@koz
Um, you got your chance. It was called 2000-2008. You failed spectacularly, and now you want to double down on failure. But go for it – campaign on eliminating Medicare and Social Security. Or do you not have the sack to self-immolate like that?
Fulcanelli
@Fulcanelli: You’re new here aren’t you?
You’re not kidding anybody here pal, this ain’t Clown Hall or NRO. Back under your taxpayer funded bridge troll, with your weak sauce.
Steaming Pile
@Martin: You obviously have never lived in New York State. It’s really several states in one. First, you have New York City and Westchester County, liberal to a fault except for people like Rush Limbaugh, who needs New York because it’s a national media capital.
Then you have Long Island, New York City’s bedroom. Kind of an odd mix between limousine liberals and the sort of conservative douchebag who keeps sending Peter King to DC.
You have the Capitol Region (Albany), which deserves the appellation “Gotham” more than NYC ever did. Really kind of an odd place.
Then you have Upstate, which is sparsely populated for the most part and fairly consistently red except for a swath of blue along the general path of the NYS Thruway (I-90). The further away from the Thruway you are, the redder the area, and Watertown is almost as far from the Thruway as you can go without learning to like fries with gravy, eh.
So yeah, the concentration of conservatives in the 23rd is pretty high.
SGEW
@Steaming Pile: You got a problem with fries w/ gravy?!
jibeaux
It is noon and I haven’t eaten yet so I would really appreciate it if you guys would lay off on how awesome bourbon pecan pie is because I already KNOW that, I am even a Maker’s Mark ambassador, and apple pie a la mode and a nice mixed fruit pie in season, it’s just torture, really. So hungry.
bemused
@anonevent:
I agree. Someone said, “Everybody does better when everybody does better”. Seems like plain old common sense to me. I have never understood why conservatives refuse to even consider the concept that they might succeed in life easier & faster if everyone else was too.
flukebucket
My friend I believe it will take a couple of election cycles before you are able to sell that shit again.
Koz
“Still waiting for your 98 policy proposals. I’m guessing it’s taking some time. 98 is a lot, but not when you consider the one precious life they are serving (yours).”
Well here’s an obvious one: when you’re in a hole, stop digging. As it is, the health of our economy is threatened by runaway spending. Obama has already spent an extra trillion dollars on the stimulus package and threatens to spend another extra trillion or two on the health care bill. That’s money the gov’t (and the economy) can’t afford so let’s kill it.
gwangung
Physician, heal thyself.
Leave the economics to someone else.
Steaming Pile
@SGEW: Not at all. I recommend Morrison’s Cafeteria in Kingston, Ontario.
jibeaux
@Koz:
Dammit I asked you nicely, do I go to your work and start talking about the awesome pork loin with fig sauce, roasted root vegetables with rosemary and creme brulee I had last night, no I do not, some people have no consideration.
Koz
“My friend I believe it will take a couple of election cycles before you are able to sell that shit again.”
Check the polls, or for that matter read the election returns in tomorrow’s newspaper. Objects in your rear view mirror are closer than they appear.
liberal
Fixt.
bob h
Old and white. A lethal combination.
Koz
“Fulcanelli
@Fulcanelli: You’re new here aren’t you?”
Heh.
liberal
@Koz:
(yawn)
Uh, wrong.
The economy can “afford” the stimulus package, because we’re in an economic slump, which means real resources aren’t being utilized.
Now, if you had made reference to Obama’s continuing Bush’s mad giveaway to the banksters, I’d nod in agreement.
liberal
@Koz:
Yes, because unfortunately it can happen here. And the tea baggers are in that sense a threatening sign.
inkadu
@Koz: Are the other 97 policy proposals about killing government programs?I thought you might have some positive policy proposals to support the economic actualization of the ubermensch. Anything?
liberal
@Steaming Pile:
Is it really all that liberal? They voted in that POS Giuliani as mayor, didn’t they?
Fulcanelli
@Koz: You never addressed my original comment above. Why not? You just side stepped it entirely. Why?
inkadu
@liberal: POS cross dressing Giuliani.
liberal
@Koz:
LOL! And I suppose GWB was neither Republican nor conservative.
jibeaux
It really doesn’t even make sense, wake up in the morning, google “teabagger”, go there and start talking about pie all day. Really what goes with tea is scones. Pie goes with coffee. Maybe the other other steve and the guy with the name an awful lot like the GOS should be googling coffeebagger?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Koz:
You do, actually. Not that you throw up roadblocks directly, but you do nothing to help. You have this idea that people just magically succeed by themselves, ignoring the fact that a lot of people contributed, either directly or indirectly, to make it happen. You ignore things like Bill Gates growing up in a rather well of middle class family, making it easier for him to drop out of college and start his own business, or that Albert Einstein grew up in a middle class family – his dad bought him a compass at age five, when compasses cost $500 and that was a lot of money – allowing him to sit in a patent office and rewrite the laws of the universe.
Granted, some people succeed in spite of all of the hardships, but I don’t even have to imagine that it doesn’t always happen. I’ve known people smarter than me, such as my dad, grow up poor and spend their lives living day to day. And the country has suffered for it.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Koz:
Really? You said that? Show me a Republican that actually reduced spending when they had the opportunity, and you’ll have to call him Bill Clinton.
liberal
@SteveCan:
Check: Obama’s stimulus bill, while not nearly as large as it should have been, has lead to more jobs than there would have been had it not been passed.
You’re right on that—Obama is largely continuing the large government, big brother “security” policies that Bush had.
Vapid platitude noted.
Hey, look, buddy, I’m as disappointed as you are that Obama hasn’t plugged the budgetary ratholes known as “the military budget,” “the occupation of Iraq,” and “the occupation of Afghanistan.”
Agreed. Why can’t they pass single payor?
Agreed. And since the best way to stem the flow of immigrants across our borders is draconian penalties on employers, we should get cracking on legislation to do just that.
All I can say to that lie is “would that it were so.”
Agreed. Obama’s continuing of the giveaway to the banksters is terrible. And we should demand that cap and trade be replaced with a high carbon tax.
liberal
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Well, in fairness, the only measure that’s really done anything to reduce deficits—the 1990 Budget Enforcement Act and its subsequent amendments—was largely the product of a compromise between GHWB and the Democratic Congress.
Koz
“LOL! And I suppose GWB was neither Republican nor conservative.”
Well he was a Republican but not a conservative one, especially wrt gov’t spending. But even if we blame GWB for excessive spending (and we should), he did it in an economy that looked like it might grow forever. Well, we can see now that was plainly an illusion.
Since then President Obama has continued the spending trajectory of President Bush, and added a few trillions more. We can’t afford this. The checks are going to start bouncing tout de suite.
liberal
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Of course they do. Anyone in favor of land ownership with low land taxes, or sweetheart deals for mineral extraction companies, or sweetheart deals on broadcast spectrum, or the government monopolies known as “patents” and “copyrights”—and I’m sure she/he is in favor of all or most of those—is in favor of direct roadblocks to freedom being erected.
It’s called rent collection.
Raphael
Re the original post- I wonder whether there might be some kind of cycle: Republicans in power do things that annoy the Ron Paul/Pat Buchanan/paleocon crowd enough to lose their support; the loss of support for Republicans is just enough to make them lose power; out of power, Republicans make up with parts of the Ron Paul/Pat Buchanan/paleocon crowd; this gives them just enough support to get back into power; rinse, repeat.
I hope that’s not the case, but I’m a bit worried that it might be the case.
liberal
@Koz:
You’re completely ignorant of the issues here and have it totally backwards. The time when it’s least legitimate, from an economic viewpoint, for the gov’t to run a fiscal deficit is in a period of growth.
Huh. Then why are interest rates on Treasuries so low?
Mind you, I don’t think we should be spending money on crap. (Needless overseas wars, and a bloated military budget, come to mind.) But the notion that we can’t afford spending now per se is just flat-out wrong.
Koz
“You never addressed my original comment above. Why not? You just side stepped it entirely. Why?”
I like pie.
Koz
“Really? You said that? Show me a Republican that actually reduced spending when they had the opportunity, and you’ll have to call him Bill Clinton.”
No, I said we have the way out of our current fiscal/economic problems, and we’re the only ones who do.
liberal
@Raphael:
I don’t buy that at all. Ron Paul might be sincere, but for sure Buchanan is full of crap.
As someone at antiwar.com pointed out in 2004, a vote for Bush was a vote endorsing the Iraq invasion. (The writer, as a right-wing, antiwar libertarian, wasn’t crazy about Kerry, but was intelligent and honest enough to understand this.)
Who did PB endorse in 2004? GWB.
liberal
@Koz:
LOL!
“Yes, last time we broke every bone in your body; but this time, we intend to fix those bones. Every last one of them.”
liberal
@Koz:
Pathetic dodge noted.
Koz
“Huh. Then why are interest rates on Treasuries so low?”
Because of “flight to quality” which is now in the process of being unwound, not necessarily a bad thing btw. But if the feds have access to unlimited credit right now, it’s not going to stay that way for all time.
jwb
@Koz: “Since then President Obama has continued the spending trajectory of President Bush, and added a few trillions more. We can’t afford this. The checks are going to start bouncing tout de suite.”
You know, you really are an idiot.
liberal
@inkadu:
Yeah, though G wasn’t truly Teh Gay. Though Koch was.
Koz
“You know, you really are an idiot.”
Yeah, our home equity is going to keep going up forever, and we can always get money from our credit cards.
liberal
@Koz:
Who said it’s being unwound now?
Furthermore, of course it’s not going to last forever. That’s not the question. The question is, what will fiscal inflow and outflow be like by the time the flight to quality has ended? You clearly haven’t enough understanding of economics to even begin pondering such questions.
gwangung
Like the doofus in the small plane that’s in a stall: “NO, DON’T DIVE! YOU’RE PLOWING US INTO THE GROUND!”
jwb
@Koz: And macroeconomics works just like personal accounts? What a doofus.
Koz
“Who said it’s being unwound now?”
Check the currency charts.
“Furthermore, of course it’s not going to last forever. That’s not the question. The question is, what will fiscal inflow and outflow be like by the time the flight to quality has ended? You clearly haven’t enough understanding of economics to even begin pondering such questions.”
Uhh, no. Let’s just say this is pretty well-worn territory if you read the financial press or the economics blogs. Otoh, if you only read the low-information liberals here on balloon-juice, you wouldn’t even know the issue existed.
inkadu
@Koz: Koz, we’re all actually quite familiar with your POV; it’s not too complicated: an underfunded federal gov’t with little authority over a society where everyone lives or dies by their ability to make money.
Did I leave anything out?
Mnemosyne
@Koz:
I’m glad to see you’re at least smart enough to see that we need to stop throwing good money after bad in Iraq and Afghanistan and pull out. After all, we’re spending $12 billion a month in Iraq alone. That means that we’re spending the 10-year cost of healthcare reform in a single year, every year, with our adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Koz
“Like the doofus in the small plane that’s in a stall: “NO, DON’T DIVE! YOU’RE PLOWING US INTO THE GROUND!””
You do have a plan to pull up on the stick sometime, right?
gwangung
@Koz: Doofus, you’re asking stupid questions.
Mnemosyne
@Koz:
Ah, yes, the old “conservatism never fails, it can only be failed” dodge. If W’s conservative policies failed, that proves that he wasn’t a real conservative and his failures can be ignored. Because conservatism is perfect and is never wrong, right, Koz?
By the way, Koz, here’s your perfect world: hospital patients being dumped on Skid Row because they can’t pay for treatment. I guess that paraplegic with a colostomy bag crawling down the street should have planned his life better, huh?
mds
“Doug Hoffman is like us, he’s not a career politician, he’s a citizen that will go home when the job is done.”
Go home to the NY-20 congressional district, where he currently lives? Because that might get slightly awkward, Fred.
inkadu
@Mnemosyne: I see what you did there.
Howlin Wolfe
@Brick Oven Bill: BOB- what about the Bush adminsitration’s use of it before September 11, 2001?
Why don’t you wingnuts ever remember these things? You most likely said nothing when Bush’s was revealed. Please stop your uninformed trolling.
Cain
BoB has turned into the BJ version of those campus preachers who would shout at all of the students about going to hell and what not and get frequently mocked for the crazy.
cain
southpaw
I think Doug’s got this wrong. The new Hitler is Obama, by their lights, and they want to fight him. The foreign policy nuttiness is apt to reemerge if ever they feel they’ve dealt with the enemy within.
Wannabe Speechwriter
Those less crazy right wingers:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/11/report-police-called-to-ny-23-polling-sitesto-deal-with-rowdy-hoffman-backers.php?ref=fpblg
Seanly
@Brick Oven Bill:
Hey doofus, try some math:
130/7000 = 1.86%
1.86% of 10 million = 186,000
So, umm, wolverines?
cleek
anti-choicers breakin the law at NY23 polling places!
the crazy has been brought.
Ash Can
@jibeaux: Wow, do those pies ever sound good. Thank God I just finished lunch.
So in this thread we have some guy named Koz marching through with his tambourine and Salvation Army band, and Brick Shithouse Bill (geez, is he back already?) playing along on tinfoil kazoo. I wouldn’t mind a hit of whatever BOB’s ingesting, but I still have a lot to do today — put the Halloween decorations away, pick Bottle Rocket up from school, make supper, avoid falling down the basement stairs…
les
Dammit, why isn’t greasemonkey working??? I seriously need pie to get through this mess.
Midnight Marauder
I just wanted to pop in and say well done to all in handling Koz so far today. Absolutely hilarious. I would say that the antics of Koz and Makewank can best be summed up with the following, courtesy of jwb:
Sometimes, it really is just that simple.
de stijl
I have never understood why conservatives refuse to even consider the concept that they might succeed in life easier & faster if everyone else was too.
Because life is a zero sum game.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
It’s interesting that there is little or no Jesus stuff on his website, but his top issue according to the “Issues” section is gay marriage. His fourth biggest issue is ACORN (translation: shiftless black people). Abortion seems to be up there near the top too. So along with the low tax/small government trope is plenty of old-fashioned wingnut venom.
Reason60
@Koz:
We still keep coming back to this-what would a conservative, Tea Party budget look like?
Here is a template based on FY2009:
Entitlements (SS, Medicare) & debt service= +- 2.1 Trillion
Defense= +-900 Billion
EVERYTHING ELSE= +-500 Billion
Total Spending= 3.5 Trillion
Total Revenue= 2.1 Trillion
Deficit= 1.4 Trillion
These are not opinions, they are facts.
So lets get real, and stop talking in platitudes; What would a “conservative” budget look like?
Would it be balanced?
What spending cuts would you like to see?
Show me a realistic balanced budget, and I will sign on.
licensed to kill time
This reminds me of when Bush and the GOP drove the car of state off the road, over a cliff, and then turned to Obama and the Dems and shrieked “Well, you have the wheel now, what are you going to do?!”
Martin
@Steaming Pile:
Actually, I used to live on Long Island and NYC. But there’s that whole other part north of the Bronx which is part of Canada or something. It was never important to know much about it since only eskimos and reindeer and shit lived up there.
But my point remains – *even among Republicans, Obama has a very high approval rating* in the Northeast. 5% disapproval. In order for Obama to have a 50% disapproval rating in that NY-23, he’d need to have a 0% disapproval rating in 9 other districts. That’s just not happening. Voters in NY-23 cannot possibly dislike Obama as much as the teabaggers need them to in order for this strategy to work. That doesn’t mean that Hoffman can’t win, but he be winning to some degree in spite of the strategy, not because of it.
Martin
@Reason60: Don’t forget the tax and cap gains cuts that will bring in $1.8T more in revenue, not to mention eliminating illegal immigrant welfare abortion subsidies which have been costing the country $1.3T per year.
Asking for a teaparty budget is as useful as asking for teaparty honesty. Not gonna happen.
cleek
@les:
might want to grab the latest pie filter. i recently fixed a couple of bugs that might’ve stopped it from working.
Of Bugs and Books
@Koz:
The ones who supported
ObamaMcCain/Palin in the last election didn’t quite get the fact that very very few people are actually winners in thewelfare stateWall Street lottery.Really, you’ll enjoy the links at this site:
http://www.nomiprins.com/index.html
Really.