Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Republicans: “Abortion is murder but you can take a bus to get one.” Easy peasy.

’Where will you hide, Roberts, the laws all being flat?’

The low info voters probably won’t even notice or remember by their next lap around the goldfish bowl.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

In my day, never was longer.

Peak wingnut was a lie.

There is no right way to do the wrong thing.

And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.

When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.

Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.

Fight them, without becoming them!

After dobbs, women are no longer free.

You come for women, you’re gonna get your ass kicked.

We will not go quietly into the night; we will not vanish without a fight.

Marge, god is saying you’re stupid.

So very ready.

“Perhaps I should have considered other options.” (head-desk)

Our messy unity will be our strength.

if you can’t see it, then you are useless in the fight to stop it.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

If a good thing happens for a bad reason, it’s still a good thing.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

The republican ‘Pastor’ of the House is an odious authoritarian little creep.

Hell hath no fury like a farmer bankrupted.

You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Tell me something good

Tell me something good

by | 384 Comments

This post is in: , ,

Word on the street is that Dems have the votes to get this whole health care huckleberry through the House tonight.

I know some of the amendments suck. But still, we’re one step closer to getting health insurance for tens of millions of Americans.

I have a hard time writing about health care reform without sounding sappy, so I’ll shut up and throw up a YouTube.

DougJ +5

Update. We are at 212.

Update 218!!!!

As recommended by a commenter, time 4:30 of this.

Update update. Maybe this is a link too far. But I don’t think so.

Reader Interactions

384Comments

  1. 1.

    MikeJ

    The very first night I was in Germany, I was in a dance club in an abandoned u-bahn station, and I got to use the phrase, “Haben sie Rufus?” to the DJ.

    I’ll have another Manhattan now, thank you.

  2. 2.

    ninerdave

    Watching C-Span which has actually been entertaining.

    On the GOP’s motion to recommit their replacement bill, who the fuck are the (currently with 7 minutes left in the vote) 8 dems that are voting for this piece of shit?

  4. 4.

    Ash

    Why are most of the callers to C-SPAN so stupid? I mean…they’re calling/watching C-SPAN, so they must be civic minded and engaged, which usually means you’re kinda smart. But nope, just lots of st00pid.

  5. 5.

    CaseyL

    It’s one of those classic “Good News; Bad News” things. The good news is, we might get a decent HCR bill passed by the House tonight. The bad news is, it contains a poison pill in the Stupak “wire coathanger” amendment.

    I’ll believe the House HCR bill passes when it actually does so.

    Then I’ll believe a Senate version passes when that, too, happens.

    And then I’ll hope the Stupak atrocity is stripped out in committee. (If it isn’t, there should be a national campaign advocating lesbianism, “Because no girl ever got pregnant making love to another girl.” Which is accurate, and has the added benefit of perhaps causing wingnut heads to go **pop**.)

    On balance, though, I’m feeling guardedly optimistic. It’s strange, feeling guardedly optimistic about HCR reform. It’s been such a long and traumatic journey just to get this far.

  6. 6.

    neff

    The Stupak stuff is going to survive the conference committee, the consumer protection parts of the bill are going to be weaseled around instantaneously, and in the long term the one lasting legacy of Obama’s one-term administration will be effectively outlawing abortion again. Way to go, Hopey.

  7. 7.

    Keith G

    Speaking of votes, its damn time we once again got a Democratic Senator from Texas. Houston’s mayor Bill White can do it with help. I hope my fellow Texan B -Jers will kick in a few pesos if possible. Some of the rest of you too.

    billwhitefortexas.com/

  8. 8.

    DougJ

    The very first night I was in Germany, I was in a dance club in an abandoned u-bahn station, and I got to use the phrase, “Haben sie Rufus?” to the DJ.

    Rufus and their fellow travellers are the only reason the rest of the world doesn’t hate us more.

  9. 9.

    DougJ

    Why are most of the callers to C-SPAN so stupid?

    They flipped over from Matlock during a Flomax commercial.

  10. 10.

    neff

    Somewhere out there is a great video of Prince doing a one-man show (on MTV, I think?) where he gets the women in the audience to sing Rufus and Chaka’s “Sweet Thing” while he plays the backing on an acoustic guitar.

  12. 12.

    JK

    Tell me something good

    The real life John Ratzenberger is dumber than his Cliff Clavin character from Cheers.

    Actor John Ratzenberger, who played Cliff Clavin on Cheers is considering a run for the U.S. Senate in 2012 in Connecticut. Ratzenberger attended a Tim Pawlenty fundraiser because he supports the “Judeo-Christian work ethic that built this country” and wants to support Pawlenty’s efforts. Ratzenberger said he would support Pawlenty if he ran for president.

    startribune.com/politics/69137852.html?page=2&c=y

    Ratzenberger also attended Thursday’s rally organized by Michele Bachmann to oppose health care reform.

    Ratzenberger slammed the Democratic bill as a form of socialism. “These are Woodstock Democrats,” he said at the rally. “We have to remember where their philosophy comes from. It doesn’t come from America. It comes from overseas. It comes from socialism. And socialism is a philosophy of failure.”

    politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/11/06/tea-party-activists-hit-the-hill-arrested-outside-pelosis-o…

  13. 13.

    Max

    David Shuster is going to go live in moments on MSNBC, if anyone wants a change from Cspan.

    I like David.

  14. 14.

    asiangrrlMN

    @neff: What the fuck ever, dude. If it floats your boat to be righteously superior (and I can see why it would. I do it quite often), then have at it. In the meantime, an actual healthcare reform bill is going to pass. Max mentioned on the previous post that the poison pill amendment will not survive the senate, with which I tend to agree.

    I will fucking take this.

    Oh, good news. I will reach the NaNoWriMo goal of 50,000 words–tonight. YAY ME!

  17. 17.

    gwangung

    Oh, good news. I will reach the NaNoWriMo goal of 50,000 words—tonight. YAY ME!

    Waaahoooo! (I’m at the final scene of the first draft, so…)

  19. 19.

    CaseyL

    Up to 212 yeas.

    Is the slow vote deliberate, drawing it out; or does the leadership still have to twist arms to get Democrats to vote on a core Democratic issue?

  29. 29.

    neff

    @asiangrrlMN : Meh you and I live in a country made of garbage and governed by human garbage, war criminals and vermin; there’s no reason to be optimistic about anything ever, although at least we’re going to destroy the planet with climate change and with any luck end our empire of garbage’s hegemony

    — neff +6

  30. 30.

    Davis X. Machina

    There’ll be a bunch of Dem ‘no’ votes right after 218. There are those who don’t want to vote for it, and don’t want to kill it.

    Profiles in courage.

  33. 33.

    CaseyL

    I’m crying. I didn’t think this would happen, I really didn’t. Holy wow.

    Now, the Senate.

    Then, get rid of Stupak.

    It passed. Dear FSM, it passed.

  34. 34.

    Halteclere

    @MikeJ: I just googled Mike’s phrase “Haben sie Rufus” to see what it means. Google listed his comment at the top of the search.

  35. 35.

    asiangrrlMN

    @gwangung: Man, you rock. You are my inspiration!

    @Yutsano: I wish. I really need a good roll in the hay right now. No, I’m going to keep going. If I make my final goal, I may have to just go out and fuck the first person I see. As long as it’s not a Republican or Glibertarian.

    @Ash: Heh, no. I just let my CDO (Compulsive Disorder Obsessive, in alphabetical order) work FOR me instead of against me. I set a goal of 7,500 words a day, and I’ve met it thus far.

  37. 37.

    ruemara

    @neff:

    Fuck you, shrinky dick.

    Back on topic, thanks for this trip back to when Chaka was totally hot and had birds growing out of her hair.

  41. 41.

    asiangrrlMN

    @JK: Hi! Good to see you! Thank you very much. How’s it going?

    @neff: True. The world fucking sucks. That’s why I will take any steps forward that I can get at this point.

    @CaseyL: It passed????? Man, I am just stunned.

    Ash, you have not failed. You have many more days to go. We’re only seven days in!

  46. 46.

    Ash

    Meh you and I live in a country made of garbage and governed by human garbage, war criminals and vermin; there’s no reason to be optimistic about anything ever, although at least we’re going to destroy the planet with climate change and with any luck end our empire of garbage’s hegemony

    Jesus dude, stop harshing the mellow. Go sit a dark room with some death metal.

  51. 51.

    MikeJ

    @JK: You’re ahead of me. I got a title and thought of a plot and never wrote a word. Which is several steps ahead of where I was last year. So maybe next year. Or in Jerusalem.

    (Speaking of which, since Cole has forced Dragon Age upon me, is anyone else playing and have you noticed that the Dalish elves are pretty explicitly Zionist?)

  53. 53.

    ek hornbeck

    Stupak is a deal breaker.

    Health Care ‘Reform’ is dead.

    Every progressive should vote against it and those who support it in its current compromised form.

    Nothing at all is better than futher restrictions on reproductive rights and a 20% corporate welfare tax.

  55. 55.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    One republican voted for HRC? I imagine President Obama and David Broder are high-fiving each other now over the glorious bipartisanship exhibited here.

  57. 57.

    Ash

    @CaseyL: Because Cao represents New Orleans, which went 75% for Obama. The only reason he won is because he was running about Bill Jefferson, the dude who kept $90k stuffed in his freezer. Cao knows who his constituents are.

  58. 58.

    CaseyL

    In about 2 minutes, I have to keep a promise and go outside and do a happy dance.

    Lord, please make it stop raining – just for 20 seconds or so, OK?

  59. 59.

    ruemara

    @asiangrrlMN:

    How the hell did you do that so fast? So far I’m at 800 words. I’m just lucky this story was started years ago and had 5000 words already in it.

  63. 63.

    Davis X. Machina

    That’s done.

    Now I’m over to DemocraticUnderground.com, where they’re all leaving the Party and registering Independent and setting up underground railroads for all the people running from the mandate police, and reading Catholics out of the party and such.

  64. 64.

    Yutsano

    @CaseyL: He’s in a very Dem heavy district who ran against Randall Cunningham either right before or right after his corruption conviction. First Vietnamese-American in the Congress. I’m guessing he would like to keep his job and got an earful at home about this.

  67. 67.

    PeakVT

    The Dems assorted approval ratings should get about 5 points out of this. Of course, that will good news for Republicans.

  68. 68.

    gwangung

    @CaseyL: Vietnamese American rep from Louisiana.

    Though I think because of him, Asian Americans’ status as honorary whites will probably be revoked…

  76. 76.

    asiangrrlMN

    @ruemara: I have stories in my head all the time. And, as you may have notice, I am EXTREMELY verbose, garrulous, loquacious, and full of words. I also type very fast. I set a goal of 7,500 words per day, and I’ve met it so far.

  78. 78.

    Fencedude

    @demkat620:

    Thank you Joseph Cao.

    Hahahahaha, well, he knows he’s going down, so I guess this was a “fuck you” to the assholes running the Republican caucus.

  79. 79.

    Ash

    @RandomChick:

    I’m googling him right now. That was out of left field, wasn’t it? Never even heard of him!

    I wouldn’t say it’s out of left field really. He’s fairly well-known due to the circumstances under which he was elected.

  82. 82.

    neff

    Pelosi deserves to be primaried for letting Stupidfuk’s anti-abortion amendment get voted on at all

    neff +8

  85. 85.

    CaseyL

    Y’know, the more our local idjits go on about how this isn’t really reform, and doesn’t count, and is all a sell-out by “Mr. Hopey,” the more I’m sure this is a really terrific victory for us, for HCR, and for Obama.

  88. 88.

    jl

    Cao. Vietnamese Rep from Democratic district in LA voted for it. Good for him. He should give up being a GOPer, and go indy or Dem. Then he might have a political future. I think would be better than some of our Corporate Pocket Blue Dogs.

    So, this is actually passed passed? I got the vote to recommit and vote to pass all mixed up.

  90. 90.

    General Winfield Stuck

    Now the real game for passing HC reform begins. All the other shit was background noise. The Senate will be a bloodbath before it’s over, likely by recon. followed by Senate Wingnuts esploding the Senate into a standstill.

  91. 91.

    JK

    @asiangrrlMN:

    It’s not going good personally or otherwise. Tuesday’s elections, with the exception of the 2 Democratic wins in the House of Reps, were very depressing. Then the fucking Yankees had to win the World Series.

    I never heard of National Novel Writing Month. Thanks for that link.

  95. 95.

    jl

    Oops. Meant to say Vietnamese-American Rep from Democratic district in LA voted for it.

    Actually, he is just an American American, and the Vietnamese part is irrelevant, except I do not think it is with the GOP. He should probably switch. He has no future as a GOPer, and he should know so by now.

  97. 97.

    BFR

    Some commenters have already noted that he is from a district that went 75% for Obama.

    His opponent was the dude with the bricks of cash in the freezer, right?

  98. 98.

    Persia

    Yay for Cao, and Pelosi and wow. Wow. It passed.

    This Prince clip is great. Damn, he’s a charming guy. And he can fucking play guitar.

  100. 100.

    asiangrrlMN

    @Ash: Do! I do freelance editing and some website writing from home. I sleep four hours a night. That’s how I get’er done.

    @Yutsano: Damn right. If they can’t sex me, at least they can support me!

  101. 101.

    General Winfield Stuck

    @mcc:

    So how easy is it to argue at this moment that Bill Owens was the tiebreaking vote on the health care bill?

    Easy enough to rub Malkins nose in it, though likely not accurate in the end.

  104. 104.

    Gozer

    Cao is one of the few non-deranged ‘pubs. Thank gawd my former home district got rid of “Dollar” Bill Jefferson and didn’t elect someone equally corrupt or someone wingnutty.

    The LA house district just over the border in Jeff. Parish produced David Duke, Bob Livingston, Bobby Jindal, and David Vitter…so you can imagine the calamity that could have befallen LA-02.

  105. 105.

    Gozer

    Cao is one of the few non-deranged ‘pubs. Thank gawd my former home district got rid of “Dollar” Bill Jefferson and didn’t elect someone equally corrupt or someone wingnutty.

    The LA house district just over the border in Jeff. Parish produced David Duke, Bob Livingston, Bobby Jindal, and David Vitter…so you can imagine the calamity that could have befallen LA-02.

  106. 106.

    Leelee for Obama

    @Fencedude: He had said, at a Town Hall that the only issue he had was Federal funding for abortion, so the Stupak amendment was the clincher. I think he’s gonna change party, especially now.

  108. 108.

    Rhoda

    Nancy Pelosi: The Greatest Speaker of All Time!

    She got this mother done! Now it’s all on Reid. He’s got to deliever this baby by Christmas if he wants to look any Democrat in Nevada in the eye.

    My favorite part: She got it through TONIGHT and it’s not being held up until Tuesday. This puts a hell of a lot of pressure on the senate; people want health care reform. The hear the House’s historic vote and they’re going to be looking to the senate to pass this. Reid putting the public option in kicked in a lot of doors for progressives and it wasn’t until watching this that I realized; the gravity is towards reform. And it’s going to be harder for Ben Nelson, Landrieu, or even Lieberman to stand in the way of this historic legislation.

    I can’t wait until this baby passes; and then no matter what Barack Obama will have gotten health care legislation that was effing DEFICIT NEUTRAL and CUT THE DEFICT.

    I am in awe. I can’t believe we came together and did this. I took Johnson two years to get Medicare and even that wasn’t as great a basis as this bill is for health care!

    Okay. I have to stop typing. I’m just so happy.

  109. 109.

    mai naem

    Cao won the seat of William Jefferson ,he of $90K in the freezer. He has no choice but to vote somewhat liberal. Chances are he will lose his seat next time around unless he does some awesome voting and campaigning this term.

  110. 110.

    asiangrrlMN

    @ruemara: I’m trying to inspire y’all. Plus, this novel is nowhere near done, but I will finish it and start one or two more. I tend to write three novels at a time. It’s what I did the last two years.

    @JK: I’m sorry to hear that, JK. I’m glad you dropped by for some snark, though. It’s good for the soul to point at the Republicans and mock them mercilessly.

  113. 113.

    de stijl

    So how easy is it to argue at this moment that Bill Owens was the tiebreaking vote on the health care bill?

    I guess Ms. Palin, Mr. Armey et al deserve a big chunk of the credit then?

  115. 115.

    jl

    When any GOP congressperson claims to be a moderate, When any Blue Dog Democrat claims not to be a corporate funkey, remember this vote.

    With the probable exception of Cao, ALL the GOP congresspeople are lying through their teeth. Blue Dogs ditto.

    This is a moderate bill. If the GOP were serious about sensible and sober and serious capitalist regulation of health insurance industry, we could have had a purely private Swiss system. But the commie Swiss threat was too much for them.

    So we will have mixed public private system. Which will eventually go all public if the GOPers and Blue Dogs keep stalling real effective regulation of private health insurance. So, the reactionaries so the seeds of the destruction of the system they claim to love and treasure above life itself (other peoples’ lives, of course).

    Only a rapacious gangster capitalist thug could vote against this bill. So, when you hear Congresscritters talk, check their votes tonight.

  117. 117.

    MikeJ

    @Halteclere: Sorry I didn’t see your comment earlier. It’s baby talk german for, “Do you have any Rufus?” Which makes sens if you want a german DJ to play American funk bands.

    Sadly all my german comes from Hogan’s Heroes and hanging out in bars.

  120. 120.

    Polish the Guillotines

    This is a great event. But if I may be so bold, fuck the fucking Republicans all to hell. With a rusty samurai sword. Over and over again.

    Pray to your deity (or favorite pasta dish) that Harry Reid has the sackular fortitude to fuck the Republicans all to hell with a rusty samurai sword over and over again.

  123. 123.

    Midnight Marauder

    I can’t stop laughing every time I see the “Good News For Republicans” tag on this post.

    Irony, you know no limits.

  125. 125.

    gwangung

    This is a great event. But if I may be so bold, fuck the fucking Republicans all to hell. With a rusty samurai sword. Over and over again.

    I’m surprised at the sudden outbreak of mercy tonight at BJ….

  128. 128.

    General Winfield Stuck

    @jwb:

    Yes. The Stupak amendment is going to be a problem they will have to work out before the thing comes back for a final vote to be sent to Obama. The progressives won’t vote for a HC bill with it in there in present form, and likely would come up short from BD;s if it comes out. Though it would likely be close with all the pressure on BD;s to pass the bill.

  129. 129.

    valdivia

    Yay! I can go to sleep happy now. Good on Nancy Pelosi, she freaking rocks. I hope Reid can pull it out the way she did.

  131. 131.

    Max

    So how easy is it to argue at this moment that Bill Owens was the tiebreaking vote on the health care bill?

    No argument necessary. He did, in fact, cast the 218th vote.

    Dems like to twist the knife once they’ve stuck it in. Me likey.

  132. 132.

    John Cole

    The SNL opening skit rips apart Fox and the rest of the idiots who pretended that the loss of VA and NJ governorships was the end for Democrats.

  133. 133.

    JK

    On SNL, Kristen Wiig just did a brilliant impersonation of the remarkably nauseating Greta Van Susteren.

  134. 134.

    Davis X. Machina

    Looks like Kucinich voted against it after all.

    Matches his ACES vote. “Boehner, Bachman, … King (IA) Kucinich…. Nay”

  135. 135.

    General Winfield Stuck

    @valdivia:

    Good on Nancy Pelosi, she freaking rocks

    Doesn’t she though. Best Speaker dems have had in a long time. I used to defend her on other blogs when she was reviled, and got flamed plenty for it. Smart and tough as nails that one. Though not perfect.

  137. 137.

    asiangrrlMN

    @John Cole: Hey! I can haz Tunchie, please, for this momentous occasion?

    All right, bitchez. Gotta go write. May be back later, may not be. I’m grinning to beat the band right now. Round one, Dems.

  138. 138.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @John Cole:

    The SNL opening skit rips apart Fox and the rest of the idiots who pretended that the loss of VA and NJ governorships was the end for Democrats.

    Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t. I’m gonna wait for CNN to fact-check it.

  140. 140.

    JMY

    Props goes to Pelosi b/c some didn’t think she could get it done and she did.

    Harry Reid – it’s your turn now. I’m going to gather up some faith that you can do it.

  141. 141.

    SiubhanDuinne

    How very cool and gracious of Speaker Pelosi to start her remarks by giving full credit to the Prez for having the vision to make sure this happened.

  145. 145.

    Texas Dem

    This is an historic moment, no doubt about it. But after we’re all done singing “Amazing Grace,” let’s sit down and figure out how in the hell we’ll get a decent health care reform bill through the Senate. Remember that the Senate is where good legislation goes to die.

  147. 147.

    gwangung

    No argument necessary. He did, in fact, cast the 218th vote.
    __
    Dems like to twist the knife once they’ve stuck it in. Me likey.

    Oh, well done, Madame Speaker, well done!

  148. 148.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Persia:

    As much as I continue to hate Fox News, they’re the only ‘news’ channel covering this.

    They’re the only ones who can cover it without being accused of liberal bias.

  150. 150.

    jl

    @Davis X. Machina: Kucinich against. He is not a gangster capitalistic thugh. But I often question his judgment. Whatever.

    I think that if healthcare reform is just enough to tip the balance towards irreversible movement towards a sensible system, a good public, private or mixed public private system ( I sincerely do not care which) then it has to go forward. Anything else is details. Get the huge rotten ship turned around and away from the rocks.

    If nitwits like Boehner, Cantor, etc. keep up the gangster capitalist thug in freedom-fighter’s clothing schtick, then the GOP will become a minor sub-regional racists’ party and we can go ahead and fix all the leaks.

    Ordinary people are dying because of the messed up system we have. That is a very big issue with me. And country’s economy is getting whacked because of it, Also.

  152. 152.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Do you think Cao cast the lone R vote all on his own? Or was there a lot of behind the scenes pressure on (or horse trading with) him? I was away from all news for a solid 12 hours today and missed all the debate and fireworks earlier, so maybe Cao spoke out earlier and gave an indication that he would be “Mr. Bipartisan”. I’m hoping C-Span will rebroadcast some of the more exciting bits.

  153. 153.

    MK

    “I am very much against any bill on any kind of insurance because insurance is not an airbag to protect you. Insurance does not buy health care. There’s something in..in…just infinitely wrong with the idea that doctors are actually taking care of people.”

    “Pam”, caller into CSPAN just before the press conference about the HCR vote.

    Which one of you Juicers committed this spoofery?

  154. 154.

    mai naem

    Damn, Henry Waxman is short. And yes he’s right, Nancy Pelosi is going down as one of the greatest Speakers of the House ever. Anway, kinda kool looking at the the group around Nancy Pelosi as compared to the GOPrs. A few white guys, 2 women, short Jewish guy, and 2 black guys.

  155. 155.

    Chuck Butcher

    I spent the debate watching it and arguing with J Michael Neal. The thing is bad enough to have passed the House and good enough to not commit hari kari over. Yes it sucks.

    Yes it passed and that is way better than the nothing for over half a century.

  156. 156.

    Ash Can

    If I remember correctly, Joseph Cao had every intention of voting in favor of the stimulus when that was going through the House, but ended up voting against it coincidentally as one of Eric Cantor’s thugs literally hovered over him at his desk. Maybe this time around he decided he was through with blowing off his district and was going to vote the way he and his constituents wanted, as opposed to what the GOP party bosses wanted.

  158. 158.

    Polish the Guillotines

    @JMY:

    Kucinich voted against?
    …
    Screw him.

    He’s a straight-up single-payer dude. This bill doesn’t go far enough for him.

  159. 159.

    Leelee for Obama

    @MK: Thanks for doing this. I thought I had dyslexia of the ears. But, you heard what I did. What the flying hell is wrong with these folks?

  160. 160.

    DougJ

    But after we’re all done singing “Amazing Grace,” let’s sit down and figure out how in the hell we’ll get a decent health care reform bill through the Senate.

    Sure, but let’s sing “Amazing Grace” first.

  161. 161.

    General Winfield Stuck

    While the final bill that becomes law will likely not look like this one, the passage tonight is important because it satisfies the constitutional requirement that any legislation that changes tax rates has to originate in the House. So what that means that though many of the Blue Dogs didn’t want to vote yea now and have it be for not if the Senate fails, though it won’t IMHO, then they are covered politically from the tea baggers in their red districts. But when the Senate passes a final bill, it will free up some of the BD’s to change to a yea vote, I think.

  164. 164.

    kay

    @MK:

    I love C-SPAN call shows because I love the host’s impassive face.
    A caller can say anything. He’s not jumping in there. No, sir.

  166. 166.

    jl

    Cao needs to switch parties tomorrow morning. Otherwise he is done.

    The GOP thugging him into voting against the simulus is weird. They obviously do not give a rats ass about keeping the seat, or his future in their white man’s party. I guess he had the poor judgment to say what he thought, or was politically necessary to survive in his district. He was not a well behave token, so probably the GOP figured the heck with it, just work the dude for what it is worth right now. The smash and grab mentality at work again.

    He could have gone that route, lost election and made a good living writing insane rants from some wingnut welfare perch.

    It will be interesting to see what happens in that district, what what is the real story with Cao. At least interesting enough for me to read a paragraph about it some day.

  168. 168.

    Polish the Guillotines

    @asiangrrlMN: I agree, but with Kucinich, I have no doubt it was a principled vote. I suspect he’d have played ball if Pelosi felt it was truly in doubt. It’s a little douchey, but I get where he’s coming from.

  170. 170.

    Leelee for Obama

    @kay: Especially the guy that was working tonight. He’s got the blandest face ever. He could be a guard at Buckingham Palace.

  173. 173.

    JK

    @kay:

    C-SPAN’s anchors are the best straight men and women on television. A caller can spout the most off-the-wall, over -the-top conspiratorial nonsense and the host will remain totally unfazed.

  176. 176.

    JMY

    That’s why Kucinich couldn’t be President. Could you imagine if he got a bill that was on his desk that was a good bill, but not single-payer? He’d veto it with the quickness.

  179. 179.

    kay

    @Leelee for Obama:

    They’re all like that. It’s a job requirement.

    I like it when they read from the newspaper. They are taking no sides, just reading from the newspaper here, not their personal opinion…

    They’re in a partisan minefield, trying to stay alive.

  180. 180.

    Chuck Butcher

    @Davis X. Machina:

    I want to inform the Democrats celebrating here that you’re officially not real Democrats.

    I’ve had the privilege of being attacked by these asswipes when they read a title and forgot to read the post. Funny as hell, rightwingers swarmed and got way pissed to find it wasn’t what they wanted.

  181. 181.

    demkat620

    Its going to be fun to watch the dems claim bipartisan victory on this tomorrow.

    Well, I can sleep now. ‘Night juicers. Me and the dog are out.

  182. 182.

    JD Rhoades

    Ok, for the next few days, there are going to be wingnuts going absolutely batshit crazy over this. I mean, crazy on a level that makes Clinton Derangement Syndrome look like a slight nervous tic.

    You may be tempted to try to engage them in debate. If you want to waste your time like that, it’s up to you, but all you really need to do is keep redirecting them to one thing, to wit:

    “You lost.”

    Some potential scenarios:

    AAGH AAAGH BLAGH THEY DIDN’T EVEN READ THE BILL BLAGH BLAHH BLAGH!

    ‘Maybe not, but you made that argument, and you lost anyway.”

    AAGH AGH AGH PARTISAN VOTE SHOVED DOWN OUR THROATS AAAAAAAAAGH!

    “And you lost that vote because you lost the last two elections.”

    ARGH SCREECH HOWL SOSHULLIBBYFASCIST COMMINISM!

    “You mentioned that before. You still lost.”

    See how it works?

  184. 184.

    asiangrrlMN

    @Yutsano: Seriously? I’m fake-married to a non-affiliated person? Hm. I will have to rethink this. Well, as long as you’re not glibertarian or a Republican, either, I am fine with it.

  185. 185.

    MK

    @Leelee for Obama:

    I was watching CSPAN on my computer, which I’ve set up as a DVR. I had to rewind several times just to make sure I was hearing what I was hearing.

    @kay:

    If there was such a thing as mind-reading tech, I would love to see “thought bubbles” around the host’s head as the callers make their statements. I bet most of it would have to be censored.

  187. 187.

    Davis X. Machina

    @ asiangrrlMN

    It’s running about 60-40 for the bill over there, but the posts from the againsts are a lot more fun than the ones from the fors.

    For a forum ostensibly about politics,     there are a lot of posters who don’t like politics, don’t understand politics, and hate politicians, only they hate Democratic politicians slightly less. In some nooks and crannies, one is hard-pressed to tell if one is at DU or Free Republic.

  188. 188.

    Ron

    @JMY: So did Massa. And they both did it because they believe in single-payer. As it turned out, fine, let them vote their conscience. I’d want both their heads on platters if they only had 217 yes votes though.

  189. 189.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @mk
    @Leelee for Obama

    I heard that too and thought even for a crazy-ass C-Span caller that was pretty damned incoherent.

    The Sunday morning bloviocracy should be at peak tomorrow morning. I know Rachel’s going to be on MTP but haven’t heard any other guest lists.

  190. 190.

    JMY

    Got this from Bob Cesca’s blog:

    Lee Stranahan on Twitter:

    “Corks are a’popping at Aetna, Cigna, Kaiser, Blue Cross and big PhARMA!!! Think of all those new customers!”

    Boo hoo, yeah right. Well I guess they wasted money fighting against it.

  191. 191.

    Yutsano

    @asiangrrlMN: I believe there are roles that government can and do perform better than private industry. I believe that a strong social safety net, including health care, keeps the American economy strong. I believe that workers have the right to organize against their employers if their employer does not serve their interest. I believe abortion is between a woman and her doctor and should not have the government make the decision for her. I don’t affiliate with a party for my own reasons, but I’m sure I’d be called a DFH.

  193. 193.

    CaseyL

    @Davis X. Machina: Oh, goody: more purity idjits. To them I say:

    Every party
    Needs a pooper:
    That’s why we invited you,
    Party pooper. Party pooper.

    The only thing really wrong with this bill is the Stupak Amendment. Granted, that’s a pretty big”only,” but good lord after the last three months it’s damn near a miracle there’s only one really big problem.

    (And for that miracle, let’s give a big thank-you to the folks who’ve spent the last three months with a phone permanently attached to an ear, haranguing and nagging and haranguing their Congresscritters to vote for real HCR. I made a few calls and visits back in August, but no way did I do a lot of heavy lifting, and I’m truly grateful to those who did.)

  194. 194.

    kay

    @MK:

    I don’t know how they do it. I would get smirky. I think people lie about that “Independent” line. I would challenge them on that.
    I used to listen to clearly partisan Bush voters claiming to be “Independents”. Well. I wasn’t fooled.

  195. 195.

    JK

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    I know Rachel’s going to be on MTP but haven’t heard any other guest lists.

    E.J. Dionne, David “Bobo” Brooks, and Ed “write a letter to NBC whining about their reporting” Gillespie.

  196. 196.

    ChrisB

    I’m looking forward to Cao’s Republican primary fight next year. Could be as entertaining as NY-23.

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t. I’m gonna wait for CNN to fact-check it.

    Well said.

  197. 197.

    Brachiator

    The SNL opening skit rips apart Fox and the rest of the idiots who pretended that the loss of VA and NJ governorships was the end for Democrats.

    Hah! And all the pundits putting out their Sunday best, getting ready to appear on the TeeVees to explain to us knucklehead citizens how the Tuesday elections were a repudiation of Obama are now revising their scripts to explain how the House passage of health care is a … repudiation of Obama. Somehow. Also, too.

    If we had a press corp with a spine, the GOP would be asked to explain their lame health care alternative. And for a bonus, they could explain how last year the Republicans were staunchly against a stimulus bill that included an extension of unemployment compensation, but overwhelmingly voted for an extension this time around.

  199. 199.

    Leelee for Obama

    Well, this was a great night! I gotta sleep.

    There’s a woman on c-span right now that would make my ears bleed if I wasn’t so tired. She likes the expanding coverage, but not the bureaucracy necessary to oversee all this expansion. We should just let the insurance cos take take of it. The meds are strong in that one.

  200. 200.

    RaeSanity

    I’m late to this but…

    @asiangrrlMN:

    It was a brother!

    I’ll thank you not to dilute the meaning of that statement.

    Everybody knows, that since the 70’s, when they hear the sentence”It was a brother”, they are referring to a black guy.

    At least that’s what I understand from watching Blackula.

    RareSanity <- blackguyinGA and +4

  201. 201.

    rikyrah

    Cao voting for it was hilarious.

    I have to admit, watching Dingell throughout all of this was pretty moving, knowing the history and all.

  202. 202.

    Chuck Butcher

    @Yutsano:

    I don’t affiliate with a party for my own reasons,

    I’ve argued myself blue in the face with N/A’s about this. These parties do take their direction to a large extent because of organizers and especially Primary elections. The chance to do something about their direction comes from inside not outside carping. Kind of depends on whether you want to push or complain.

  203. 203.

    mai naem

    Does Bart Stupidak have a daughter? Cuz if he does, I hope she someday needs an abortion and Stupidak is around to tell her what an awful human being she is for needing an abortion.

  206. 206.

    Anne Laurie

    Meh you and I live in a country made of garbage and governed by human garbage, war criminals and vermin; there’s no reason to be optimistic about anything ever, although at least we’re going to destroy the planet with climate change and with any luck end our empire of garbage’s hegemony

    Don’t give up hope, dude. The pig AIDS recombinant flu may yet kill enough of us bipedal swine to save the remnants for a few more generations. And the planet will go on, with or without us.

    Tonight, however, one small step for a bill, one giant step towards making the Republican Party a hissing and a byword!

  207. 207.

    RareSanity

    Oops…I misspelled my name in my first post for the night (it’s in moderation)…and realised I needed to make a correction:

    RareSanity +4 +6

    What a great day!

  209. 209.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @JK

    Thanks. EJ’s not bad, but Rachel should have lots and lots of fun with Bobo and Eddie the G.

  211. 211.

    kay

    @rikyrah:

    The Washington Post says the White House lobbied him, because Republicans announced they’d be united in opposition.
    So good for them, if that’s true.

  212. 212.

    jl

    Thanks for link to roll call above.

    Looks like there were a number of Democratic ‘purity ball’ votes. Too bad. I disagree with their judgment.

    Mike Ross voted against. I doubt that was a purity ball vote. More like a money bomb from the insurance industry vote.

  214. 214.

    Yutsano

    @Chuck Butcher: The reasons are actually religious. My faith bars me from participating in partisan politics, although I am encouraged to vote and be an activist for causes I believe in. But political parties are by their very nature divisive and since it’s not required in my state there’s no reason for me to put a D besides my name. I hope I’m explaining this right.

  215. 215.

    JK

    @Brachiator:

    If we had a press corp with a spine

    I wish the current press corps could be voted out and replaced with real journalists. Instead we’re stuck with a clueless buffoon like CBS’ Mark Knoller who wastes time comparing the number of rounds of golf played by Obama and Bush.

  216. 216.

    Nellcote

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Do you think Cao cast the lone R vote all on his own? Or was there a lot of behind the scenes pressure on (or horse trading with) him?

    Cao basically supports the bill but he’s anti-choice so the StupidPAC amendment brought him over.

  219. 219.

    Fulcanelli

    The wingularity has been breached. Peak Wingnut Event Horizon approaching. ETA: Sunday Morning Talk Shows.

    Expect a non-stop MSM parade of Republic party Senators brandishing BIC lighters farting in unison for weeks on end.

    We’re all Sockalists now. But at least we’ll have health care.

  220. 220.

    jl

    @Yutsano: I mean, I have been a Democrat most of my life (was a Repub for a time a long time ago -Reagan youth, I guess until I sobered up in a couple of years) but I have to beef, as long as you vote and are active in supporting good causes.

  223. 223.

    Brachiator

    That’s why Kucinich couldn’t be President. Could you imagine if he got a bill that was on his desk that was a good bill, but not single-payer? He’d veto it with the quickness.

    Any moran in the House or Senate who insists on single payer or nothing should be taken out back and beat vigorously with a wet noodle.

    This ain’t purity. It’s idiot leftwing fundamentalism.

  226. 226.

    mai naem

    @Ash:
    looked up Stupidak’s bio. He had a son who committed suicide. No dtrs but another son. He also lives in the C Street The Family church deal so there’s really no doubt he’s shtupping somebody on the side just as everybody else appears to be doing.
    Any irony in seeing Repubs up there with Shtupidak who didn’t vote for the health bill but they want to save the fetuses. The GOP – the pre-natal partay.

  228. 228.

    Chuck Butcher

    @Brachiator:

    This ain’t purity. It’s idiot leftwing fundamentalism.

    Oh c’mon, nobody is that naive, Steny took the count and told them it was fine. It’s an old game, Sen G Smith (OR-R) played it all the time to keep his OR moderate creds while he was a conservative asswipe, caught up to him last year and Jeff Merkley is an awesome swap.

  230. 230.

    JMY

    There’s too many party poopers on liberal blogs right now. How can you call yourself progressive yet get mad a progress. Despite the things that you may not like in the bill, this is a huge step. I understand people are upset about the amendment and some other stuff in the bill, but to sit there and pout and act as though this not good news for our country and a historic achievement is ridiculous.

  231. 231.

    Fulcanelli

    @Brachiator: This.

    When you consider the size and financial power of the opposition to any HCR at all this bill passing, warts and all, is quite an accomplishment.

    Next up: Taking a blow torch and a pair of pliers to Wall Street and off shore tax dodging corporations to recoup the ducats to pay for the health care bill.

    Popcorn, anybody?

  232. 232.

    Fern

    @JMY:

    Yup. Had a brief and unpleasant visit to FDL. Anyone who sees anything positive in what happened tonight is apparently a troll.

  234. 234.

    Chuck Butcher

    @JMY:

    I’ll say it again, this sucked exactly enough to get passed and it does suck.

    It got passed and that is one hell of an improvement over half a century of nothing.

    OK

    yippee

  235. 235.

    jl

    @Chuck Butcher: That is true. The repeate head counting and prioritizing who could take their vanity or principles or purity ball votes, etc. probably was the reason for the doubts on the timing.

    Still, I question their judgment. Getting enough reform to move us away from corrupt crony capitalist system is critical for people’s lives and country’s future.

    Even if I did think single payer was the bestest of all, I would vote in favor to signal strength behind House healthcare reform juggernaut.

    That kind of thing impresses our mostly idiot press corps, too. Or is it press corpse. I suddenly got those two words mixed up in my head.

  237. 237.

    JMY

    @Fern

    FDL was what I was reading. I totally understand that argument, it’s just silly to me that people can’t be somewhat excited about this. Think about it: this bill was weakened and it still barely passed. That signals to me that single-payer would not have had a chance at all – period, DOA. Like I said earlier, based on Kucinich’s vote, if he was president, he would veto it, and we will back to square one.

  238. 238.

    jl

    Will GOP scream about how this is bad becasue it pleases the ghosts of communist anti-Americans like Teddy Roosevelt and Harry Truman?

    They might like to try that, their recent stunts (that I will not mention out even my rudimentary sense of decency) didn’t seem to work out so well.

  240. 240.

    JMY

    @Yutsano

    lol, I’m sure according to some people, like PUMA’s, he hasn’t done anything and this doesn’t change that line of thinking.

  241. 241.

    JK

    @Fulcanelli:

    We’re all Sockalists now.

    Well, if we are, this is bad news for John Ratzenberger (see #12 for demented quote), Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann Turner Wingnut Overdrive also.

  242. 242.

    Chuck Butcher

    @jl:
    I understand the press thing, you have got to understand maintaining face if the votes are there. It matters a lot to someone like Kucinich, it is what he’s got in that district, he’s got face. If Dennis loses that rep as a fighting fool who is straight with his district he’s gone. It isn’t really a blue CD, that’s what’s funny. It is a hell of a lot more conservative than Dennis is.

    Smith lost OR because he got caught out being two faced, he got it from the right by an I deluded he was moderate and the mainstream Ds finally caught onto the faux moderate shit. Bye bye

  243. 243.

    Davis X. Machina

    The repeated head counting and prioritizing who could take their vanity or principles or purity ball votes, etc.

    If you’re a politician, heaven is to be able to vote against something and for something at the same time.

    In the House you can come close on these only-covering-the-point-spread votes,

    Real paradise is in the Senate, where you actually can vote for something (cloture) and against something (the bill proper) at the same time.

    That’s why so many reps run for Senate.

  245. 245.

    JK

    @Chuck Butcher:

    I have a vague recollection that Dennis Kucinich faced serious opposition in his most recent re-election bid for the first time in his career in the House.

  246. 246.

    General Winfield Stuck

    @General Winfield Stuck:

    They are ideologues. The kind that I largely agree with on issues, at least in principle. But they are ideologues just the same. The word progressive is over and misused by our side. Largely because we abandoned the word liberal out of fear that it is politically toxic, which I don’t think is as true as it once was, but there it is.

  247. 247.

    jl

    @Chuck Butcher: Well…. OK, I guess. I know that kind of thing has to happen. I am not familiar enough with their districts to understand what they need to do to stay in office. If they do more good than harm, then I understand the need for those votes. It has always been like that.

    I was justy saying that if I were a Congressperson, I would have a hard time not giving a measure like this as big a victory as possible. But then I would not box myself into a corner with silly stands over things that are essentially unknowable.

    And I think it is unknown whether a single payer system is really best for this country. I do not think a Canadian style single payer system would work well here. A version of the Australian system, which is more demand driven, with more flexible cost control methods might work very well. But who knows?

  248. 248.

    gwangung

    Think about it: this bill was weakened and it still barely passed. That signals to me that single-payer would not have had a chance at all – period, DOA.

    Yeah. This.

    And, yes, you could start over next year, but there’s no way to spin THAT except as a loss.

    Conversely, there’s no way to spin this except as a win.

  249. 249.

    Fulcanelli

    What’s gonna be really interesting IMO is: Watching how the State opt-out provision (if it is in the final bill) affects where companies want to set up shop.

    Companies have long chosen to locate in the state that gives them the best deal tax wise, along with other perks, of course. This is a big part of why so many have come from overseas or pulled up stakes in blue states to locate in red states. It should be interesting to see if not having to pay as much or if at all for employees’ health benefits makes a difference in where they call home.

    When I worked with Honda the US lost out on having a new plant built in the Detroit area to Canada because of the Canadian Sockalist health system and the savings to the company. I heard this directly from Honda management.

  250. 250.

    Chuck Butcher

    @JK:

    People take Dennis as looking like that CD and he doesn’t other than real blue collar roots. He’s got being a firebreather going for him. They love it. It is politically a really funny thing to look at.

    I love it, it is so politically contradictory and yet so sensible. He’d gridlock DC as President because he just can’t manage to go along to get along if there’s not a gun to his head. He beats people who should by demographics beat him because he’s that way.

  251. 251.

    Comrade Kevin

    I also said this over on GOS:

    Reps who demand Single Payer or Nothing will get us Nothing.

  252. 252.

    Comrade Luke

    It’s pretty amazing that more Reps are in favor of taking away a woman’s right to choose than are for ensuring everyone has access to affordable health care.

  255. 255.

    jl

    It is important to remember that healthcare reform is not a done deal. There is that corrupt rich person’s club called the Senate, then conference, then the whole song and dance over again.

    I hope Pelosi gave the pitch for the biggest margin possible. A show of big House support seems important to me, at this stage.

    The GOPers try to portray other high income countries as rigid government imposed healthcare hellholes mining the good health of their non-smoking, non-drinking non-overweight, non-sexytiming well behaved drones until they drop.

    But that is not true. When I look at the data, Asia, Oceania and Yurrp countries seem more responsive to citizen wishes on healthcare than the US. Even totalitarian UK. They have been rapidly increasing the number of GPs (unlike the US, where the AMA and budget hawks sez ‘no way suckers’). Several countries have moved from social insurance to national health service, or vice versa, trying to get the system that peforms the best for their situation.

    It seems arrogant to me for anyone to assume they know what the best kind of system will be for the US.

  258. 258.

    Brachiator

    @Chuck Butcher:

    RE: This ain’t purity. It’s idiot leftwing fundamentalism.

    Oh c’mon, nobody is that naive, Steny took the count and told them it was fine. It’s an old game, Sen G Smith (OR-R) played it all the time to keep his OR moderate creds while he was a conservative asswipe, caught up to him last year and Jeff Merkley is an awesome swap.

    Oh yeah, I know how this game is played. Here in California, all but 3 Republicans voted against the budget so that the rest could keep their no tax pledge and impress the rubes. But the fix was in and long settled by the Guvernator and a small band from both parties before a single vote was allowed to be cast.

    But this kind of crap also encourages people who should know better to continue to flog pointless crap “on principle.”

    The fetish that Dennis the Purist Menace and other progressive have for single payer is an obstacle to meaningful health care reform. Instead of looking for a stage to do the purist grandstand, he should be getting on board the train to make sure that this bill is not further weakened.

  259. 259.

    General Winfield Stuck

    I don’t know how people deal with following politics by taking everything that happens at face value. It would drive me crazy or damn near it, without taking the time and effort to understand the kabucki that occurs to go from point A to point B and beyond to conclusion.

  261. 261.

    Chuck Butcher

    @JMY:

    Dennis is whip smart, make no mistake. He doesn’t run for President because he thinks he’s got a chance, he does it to have his say. He’s not an idiot. It expands his donor base, it expands his audience, it gains him cred in the CD as a powerplayer, and he gets to push at the dialogue.

    Do you want what he has to say, said? It wouldn’t be. Nader is an anathema to most D nowadays, Dennis is huggable by the same bunch and the Party doesn’t mind because he doesn’t hurt them at the Primary or the General. It is theater, if you will.

  262. 262.

    Reason60

    @asiangrrlMN:
    “I will take a half-baked bill that is better than anything we’ve had in decades than hold out for perfection which will come never.”

    I am late to the thread- having gone outside and done the whole New Years celebration thing- y’know,shooting off a shotgun, screaming YEAAAAA like a banshee, that sort of thing-
    But I agree- we got a bill that took care of enough interests and issues representing a consensus of American sentiments, and made a huge step forward for a civilized decent society.

    Bravo

  263. 263.

    Fern

    @Brachiator:

    I can’t see single payer happening in the US. Single payer was introduced here in Canada before the insurance industry became the behemoth it is today, plus the mentality is different.

  264. 264.

    Xecky Gilchrist

    @Comrade Luke: You’re right there, and I’m embarrassed and pissed that my nominally Democratic rep (Matheson, UT-2) voted the wrong way both times – Aye on Stupidak Amendment and Nay on the final bill. Bastard!

  266. 266.

    jl

    @Fern: ‘Single payer’ doesn’t even mean much of anything. Examples above are Canada and Australia, both single payer but run on different principles. Some even call Netherlands single payer: due to subsidies and strong risk adjustment, most money for healthcare has gone through a gummint or public agency of some kind. They just decided a few years ago to try out letting private entities they decided to call ‘insurance companies’ administer all the payments, instead of a public private mix of insurers they had previously.

    So, at a practical level, seems silly to hold things up for what is essentially a slogan, when the hardest task is getting the country to abandon its suicidal corrupt crony capitalist system, which is what I think the healthcare and financial industry in this country have devolved into.

    So, lemme tell you, I were a brave congressperson, I would have told off those GOPers off from the well by name, took a swing at Johnny Bones, and I would have voted yes so the next day the press would be howling about the fearsome House Juggernaut coming to crush all in its path.

    Yessir.

    Too bad all of you could not seen the show in that wonderful possible world on youtube the next day.

  267. 267.

    Chuck Butcher

    @General Winfield Stuck:

    It would drive me crazy or damn near it, without taking the time and effort to understand the kabucki

    Well sure it would, but you’re going to tell me it wouldn’t be a short trip? How many people here have run for office, small or especially big? How many work closely with elected officials? Cripes, I take pride in digging and thinking on it and I still wind up doing head scratching even after it is “explained.”

  268. 268.

    AnotherBruce

    I’m trying to figure out why people here seem to be upset more with Kucinich than with Stupak.

    And, just maybe, one of the reasons Kucinich didn’t vote for the bill is because of the Stupak amendment.

    I’m glad the bill passed but I’m just weirded out by the attacks on “the left”, instead of the crap that passes for centrism these days.

  269. 269.

    Betsy

    Tell me something good

    I just got home from a party that was broken up by the cops. That hasn’t happened in years. I feel young again. ;D
    Plus, it was in a bike shop recently opened by fixie hipsters. I was entirely too square to be there, but I had a fabulous time nonetheless.

  272. 272.

    General Winfield Stuck

    but you’re going to tell me it wouldn’t be a short trip?

    Prolly not a long one.

  274. 274.

    JMY

    @Chuck Butcher

    I know him running for president is all show – just to get his message out. But I laughed at people who tried to convince me that he was a better candidate for president than Obama or Clinton and that he should be president. I agree with many of his positions, but I’m also a realist. Sure he stood by his position and was principled, but his nay vote b/c it’s not single-payer meaning it’s not perfect is the equivalent of getting mad because you got a 3.95 gpa instead of a 4.00 gpa. In the pursuit of perfection, I would rather get something good than absolutely nothing.

  278. 278.

    FlipYrWhig

    @AnotherBruce:

    I’m just weirded out by the attacks on “the left”

    The thing is, it’s not really the actual left, it’s the leftish wannabes of the blogosphere who like to stomp their feet and revel in their disappointment. It’s masturbatory masochism.

  279. 279.

    mcd410x

    “Look I’m just saying that somewhere between Jesus dying on the cross and a giant bunny hiding eggs there seems to be a gap of information.”

    How wonderful is South Park?

  280. 280.

    jl

    I skimmed DK’s letter. Whatever. If Pelosi thought it best to let him vote his whatever, she knows more than I do about how to get things done in Congress.

    I think Kucinish is just plain wrong.

    I think AHIP smells the coffee. Their show is over. I believe that once people have a better shot at reliable health insurance they will not give that up. If they think they are paying too much, they will raise holy hell, they will be even less prone to believing BS industry crap TV propaganda, becasue they will see on their own, or from friends and family that public insurance will work as well or better than private.

    So if we get a critical mass covered, and get in enough reform so public insurance, or better regulated health care, show will be OVAH. O V A H. There will be no going back, only going forward.

    Krugman pointed out a poll from MA’s half assed reform, 79% of voters and 75% of docs said they wanted to keep it and improve it rather than scrap it.

    If we can get from one-eighth or one-forth assed to half-assed reform is over. Everybody can learn to get along, even the non-criminal members of AHIP. GOP is the one group that loses out bigtime forever, that is why they are making total damned fools out of themselves and their dupes over it.

    I am sure some here will disagree, but that is my opinion.

  281. 281.

    AnotherBruce

    @Betsy: @Betsy:

    And I learned something new about Kucinich.

    I agree that a lot of what Kucinich does is theater, but theater is what the Democratic side should do more of. That’s why he tried to get a vote on single payer. He wants to move the window to the left, and thats something we need these days.

    Now that I think about it, the Democrats did engage in some good political theater by letting Dingell give his speech. It heartens me to know that they know how to play the game.

  282. 282.

    FlipYrWhig

    @slag:

    I wonder if Erickson will mail Cao some cigars as his punishment.

    Maybe he’ll say that this was a real brain-fart by Cao, so everyone should send him the substance cow farts are made of, methane. And then Irk Irksome will get busted for terrorism.

  283. 283.

    jl

    I meant to say “If we can get from one-eighth or one-forth assed to half-assed reform, then the show is over.”

    Not that reform is over. We will just be on our way to incrementally improving the system towards something that maintains popualtion health, gives people more freedom to live their lives, at reasonable cost. Like about 30 other high and middle income coutries have done.

  284. 284.

    Chuck Butcher

    @JMY:

    I would rather get something good than absolutely nothing.

    You did get it. That’s the point. He’ll be in there rooting around as this goes forward and if his vote is absolutely called for he’ll probably swallow twice and do it. And bitch about it. Everybody has been put on notice that he’s not happy, he ain’t an easy lay.

    Before this is over you’re gonna want him in that fight. This thing was fucked up enough to pass the House, it has the Senate to go yet and House stuff is almost always watered down in the Senate – think about it. Thirty nine D nays. You ought to be happy he was one because he actually is on your side.

  288. 288.

    gwangung

    @AnotherBruce:

    Well, yeah….we call it kabuki theatre, but what it really is the theatre of symbols and symbolism, fought with words and exaggerated stances. There’s a real skill in reading exactly what’s symbolic/kabuki and what’s real (and sometimes even the players get too caught up in the games), but that’s why not everyone can be a good player at it.

  290. 290.

    jl

    @Chuck Butcher: so, we should consider a good proportion of those 39 nays, are reserves of some sort?

    Congressional logic is too much for me to figure out. I admit it.

  291. 291.

    Cain

    @Chuck Butcher:

    Earl Blumenauer makes you bow tie scoffers suck eggs. I don’t care if he wears a cat on his neck, he’s a credit to OR

    He is our rockstar. He almost always get a huge raound of applause when he shows up at public events. The man is awesome. I hope to meet him sometime.

    cain

  292. 292.

    asiangrrlMN

    @Reason60: The funny thing is that I am pretty lefty myself. I do believe in a single-payer system, full equal rights for everybody, a green future, blah-di-blah-di-blah, and yet, I can’t stomach all the whining done on the far far left. I can find the downside to almost everything, and even I am irritated by the ‘everything he’s done is just like W. or worse’ bullshit emanating from over there <==.

    @Yutsano: Oh, you’re a DFH. Got it! You’ll fit right in.

  293. 293.

    JMY

    @Chuck Butcher

    Yeah, we do need him on our side. It gets frustrating sometimes though and I like Kucinich. I should have known he would do this given the fact that he voted against the cap and trade bill in the House.

  295. 295.

    Chuck Butcher

    @Cain:

    I hope to meet him sometime.

    You’ll like him, he’s a real personable guy. My CD is about as far from his politically and geographically as possible but we’re acquainted. Make the effort. If you ride a bike you’ll get instant cred.

  297. 297.

    JMY

    @AnotherBruce

    Kucinich would have voted against the bill even if Stupak’s amendment failed and people are angry at Stupak, I was pissed that it passed. I don’t believe that it will be in the final bill.

  298. 298.

    MBSS

    you know, for someone who “has done nothing,” obama sure has done a lot. agree or disagree on content, but the argument that the wheels are stationary is pretty weak.

  299. 299.

    jl

    If most recent post at Wonkette is any indication, the lefties will be more understanding of Kucinich’s vote, and all the wrangling, and the sellouts, and even the dumb abortion amendment, than the GOPers will be of Cao’s vote.

    And that aint just hyperbowl, my friends.

    Republican Voting For Health Care = Dachau, Too
    wonkette.com/412080/republican-voting-for-health-care-dachau-too#comments

    Hey, what up, big tent party?

    I haven’t seen any nasty name calling from the self-righteous left yet. Mostly superior than thou, disappointed and cynical clucking and associated earnest misguidedness.

  300. 300.

    MBSS

    and for all the flak she gets from the unhinged right, pelosi has proven herself to be an able whip-cracker, putting rahm and cat herders to shame.

    democrats, ftw, for a change

  301. 301.

    gwangung

    @MBSS:

    you know, for someone who “has done nothing,” obama sure has done a lot. agree or disagree on content, but the argument that the wheels are stationary is pretty weak.

    Heh heh heh heh.

  302. 302.

    MBSS

    i thought i saw cao on cspan, talking like he was going to vote nay.

    cao is gonna get (olympia) snow-ed in.

  303. 303.

    gwangung

    and for all the flak she gets from the unhinged right, pelosi has proven herself to be an able whip-cracker, putting rahm and cat herders to shame.

    And another one belted out of the park! (Bouncing off the warehouse roofs, into the night….)

  304. 304.

    jl

    @Nellcote: A waste of money, at this point, IMHO.

    I think the gangster element of AHIP (and there is good chance that is most of AHIP, I guess we will find out soon) decided that the risk of people blowing off a media propaganda campaign was too high, now that it is obvious the system is breaking apart. That is why they tried the corporate sponsored astroturf teabagger nonsense this summer. It did nothing at all to public opinion, or may have backfired.

    So, now they panic. I don’t think it will work.

  305. 305.

    AnotherBruce

    @JMY:

    I hope you’re right, but I don’t think so. The conservative Dems in the Senate hold more sway than the ones in the House. I can’t see idiots like Ben Nelson allowing cloture if this thing is removed in reconciliation.

    I don’t like the amendment, and it should not have been voted on, but with all that I’m still glad the bill passed the House.

  306. 306.

    Yutsano

    @jl: Panic is right. I saw one today and man it was major weak sauce. It’s like they’re not even trying any more.

  307. 307.

    MBSS

    why on the roll call is it the “ayes and noes?”

    shouldn’t it be the “no’s?”

    noes sounds like a uneducated texter teen trying to spell “knows.”

    btw, i hate the text word “kno.” all you’re missing is a w. add it!

  308. 308.

    MBSS

    @AnotherBruce:

    ben nelson’s opinion is important, but he’s hair’s opinion is even more valuable.

    unfortunately all his hair ever says is: “someone please, for the love of god, wash this fucking aquanet out of me!”

  310. 310.

    Brachiator

    @Chuck Butcher:

    Dennis is whip smart, make no mistake. He doesn’t run for President because he thinks he’s got a chance, he does it to have his say. He’s not an idiot. It expands his donor base, it expands his audience, it gains him cred in the CD as a powerplayer, and he gets to push at the dialogue.

    I stopped listening to Kucinich a long time ago, and I wonder if he is as much a powerplayer as he thinks he is. I can’t recall anyone seeking his opinion about anything since early in the primary. Did he do anything to help the current health care bill?

    Being smart, by itself, doesn’t carry very far for a politician.

    Fern — I can’t see single payer happening in the US. Single payer was introduced here in Canada before the insurance industry became the behemoth it is today, plus the mentality is different.

    Single payer is just one way of funding health care. It is not necessarily the best way to deal with the issue. It is certainly not the sole method that other countries use. The article of faith for progressive purists is that government absolutely must pay for health care, and that insurance companies, not even heavily regulated insurance companies, cannot ever be involved. They are incapable of considering any other option, and pretend that industrialized countries with universal health care funded by any other mechanism simply do not exist.

  312. 312.

    The Dangerman

    I surely hope this bill prevents the problems the new Credit Card regulations have allowed. Card companies are flat out fucking their customers in advance of the new regs; gotta profit while you can and all.

  315. 315.

    jl

    @MBSS: I agree. Let’s adopt LoL Cat language for Congress. It will be more appropriate. Change the votes to ‘Yay-Yayz’ and ‘Oh-Noez’.

    Kan we haz resess?

    Kum to yur ordurz.

    Jennelmanz an’ wimminz.

  316. 316.

    AnotherBruce

    @MBSS:

    So that’s hair? I thought it was something that was woven on his head when the insurance companies installed his batteries.

  317. 317.

    MBSS

    that’s not true brachiator:

    Single payer is just one way of funding health care. It is not necessarily the best way to deal with the issue. It is certainly not the sole method that other countries use. The article of faith for progressive purists is that government absolutely must pay for health care, and that insurance companies, not even heavily regulated insurance companies, cannot ever be involved. They are incapable of considering any other option, and pretend that industrialized countries with universal health care funded by any other mechanism simply do not exist.

    most progressive purists would like something like the french system with private insurers in the mix, but regulated. the litmus test for most on the hard left is the availability of at least a modicum of respectable and affordable care to each and every last one of us, regardless of the route to get there. the fact the single payer is the proven to be one of the best routes is why they back it.

  318. 318.

    MBSS

    @jl:

    lol-congress. twice as watchable but still not very cute no matter how many kittens you add to the chamber.

  319. 319.

    slag

    Something good: I’m watching a NOVA special (via Netflix) about CA’s energy saving initiatives. It features the Guvernator and that Marxist terrorist Van Jones. Bring back Van Jones!

  320. 320.

    jl

    Seems to me that US-style gangster capitalism, and US health insurance and health plans have stunk up healthcare so badly that many progressives really do not trust any system that has any private insurers at all.

    The ‘single payer’ slogan does stand for 100% public insurance for many of my progressive friends, and has become a litmus test for them. Not sure how widely that generalizes to the country.

    Problem is that if strong regulation of comprehensive policies cannot be adopted here, as it has been in other countries, an industry with private insurance will be unstable. So we will end up with a single payer, probably Medicare for all type system as in Australia.

    But the single payer progressives will not have done it, the GOP and reactionary elements of health insurance industry will have forced it by resisting needed regulation.

    So, I do think many progressives do want purely public single payer system. But fine with me if they do. I really cannot judge whether they are helpful in establishing a strong extreme position to bargain from, or are creating obstacles. No one listens to them much, so not sure if they have any impact at all.

  322. 322.

    MBSS

    i think the hard left wants single-payer because it’s simple and straight forward (somehow people still don’t understand the concept) and it draws a line in the sand from which to negotiate from. also it makes a great soundbite: “medicare for all. just do it.”

    but if you talk to those people on the left who are more involved in the details and logistics of implementing plans of this scope, and understand the various models in other countries, they understand there are many ways to skin a boehner, and some of them involve private insurance. “boutique or nitch insurers.”

    for the common populist rabble “single payer” is simple to explain and chant.

  324. 324.

    slag

    @jl: I haven’t seen Cao. But I’ve seen Steven Chu. And he’s Asian too. Oh. My. God. You’re right. IT’S ALL CONNECTED!

  325. 325.

    Comrade Luke

    People want single-payer because most alternatives to single payer involve regulation, which like taxes have been ingrained as somehow immoral in our society.

    Single payer means “fine, leave everything else the way it is, just have the government pay”.

    There are better alternatives, but good luck getting anywhere with ’em.

  326. 326.

    MBSS

    i’m hard left and i’d like the government to set a baseline of care. a standard where we say: “human beings need to be treated with a certain level or respect and dignity. and at the same time we recognize that the economic factors entailed with leaving people behind health care wise are not acceptable either.” so it would be the right thing to do economically, socially, and philosophically to cover everyone at that baseline level.

    at the same time that wouldn’t preclude daddy warbucks buying a boutique private insurance policy which provides 3rd world grape feeders and designated ass-wipers when he lifts his butt from the heated commode at “st. hayek general.”

  327. 327.

    MBSS

    i am displeased with this legislation, just like kucinich, but i won’t deny that it is movement in the right direction.

    and i want to say that i am impressed with this 111th for having kept the legislative ball rolling, and not having got too caught up in the d.c. quicksand.

    color me surprised they actually got it done today.

  329. 329.

    MBSS

    and, i’m out.

    good night sports fans and/or tunch lovers. no shame if it’s an “and” and not an “or.”

  330. 330.

    jl

    @Mark S.: I do not particularly support single payer. But I agree. It really pissed me off that it was taken off the table pre-emptively, and not even debated or considered. A CBO analysis would have been very useful. Nice illustration of what a fraud the idea of open debate and free inquiry in the press has become in this country.

    And, as I think I said perviously, the hypocrisy is stunning. We have public flood and crop insurance. Is that an un-American threat to our freedoms and capitalist system.

    Not if wealthier people are getting most of the benefits, I guess.

  332. 332.

    Yutsano

    @MBSS: Medicare (which I’m on) is a really good starting baseline for the standard of care in the US. Just tweak it to cover maternity coverage/ pediatric care and it would be perfect for a good baseline. Plus it’s already in existence and people are familiar with it. And if you hadn’t noticed seniors LOVE Medicare. Doctors complain about the reimbursement rates but the fact is Medicare gets them their check fast with little to no fuss. If the rates were adjusted to accommodate the doctors salary demands, then Medicare could be our baseline and it would be sustainable. I just don’t see a need to reinvent a wheel here. I also know this won’t happen overnight.

  333. 333.

    Brachiator

    @MBSS:

    shouldn’t it be the “no’s?”

    Why would you add an apostrophe to indicate a plural? It’s ayes and nays, yeses and noes, ayes and noes. Always has been.

    most progressive purists would like something like the french system with private insurers in the mix, but regulated. the litmus test for most on the hard left is the availability of at least a modicum of respectable and affordable care to each and every last one of us, regardless of the route to get there. the fact the single payer is the proven to be one of the best routes is why they back it.

    A while back I watched Bill Moyer discuss health care. He and his guests were so wrapped up in slobbering over single payer that they couldn’t even bother to define it. They assumed that anyone watching the show was a true believer. They never discussed any other way of funding or paying for a health care system.

    In California, an effort to launch a state health care system was sandbagged by progressives, who were furious that it was not funded by a single payer method.

  334. 334.

    jl

    @MBSS: That is a hard left attitude in the US, but the standard opinon in pretty much all other high and middle income democracies.

    If I may be put on my a-hole economist hat for a moment. Most countries require that all private and public insurers provide exactly ONE basic comprehensive health insurance plan. Switzerland, with its all private system requires it too. It is probably necessary to get a stable system with public and/or privatge insurers competing for customers, along with the requirement of no exclusions or rescissions.

    Many countries, including France, Australia and Switzerland, allow a less regulated for-profit private market for supplemental insurance. I think that is the boutique insurance option you are thinking of. These are usually offered without any government penalty, such as a surtax, which is what might pass into law here.

    It is odd that these other supposedly commie and totaliatarian hellholes respect the wishes of their citizens who want more insurance than in what is socially deemed an affordable universal benefits package, than do the corrupt money-bags who run this country in the name of free choice and free markets. And our overlords want to impose these sanctions in order to protect gangster crony corporate capitalism.

    Anyway, I think for-profit private supplemental insurance can be considered to be a frequent feature of universal health care systems. Places like Canada, which had no role for it, and is struggling wtih it now, are I think an exception.

    It is not just for daddy warbucks in other countries. I think most people in Switzerland and France purchase some supplemental insurance. It is more heavily regulated than health insurance here, but that is not saying much. It is regulated enough so that the insurers usually do what the contract says they will do, and the contracts make sense to an ordinary person, which I think is more than can be said for policies in the US.

  335. 335.

    Mark S.

    @Comrade Luke:

    People want single-payer because most alternatives to single payer involve regulation, which like taxes have been ingrained as somehow immoral in our society.

    This is the main reason I prefer single payer over the other models. One of these days, we are going to elect some gooper like Mike Pence for president and all those regulations will go out the door and we will be back where we started.

  337. 337.

    Ecks

    I don’t pretend to know what DK is thinking, but there’s this game theory argument that nobody would pay people like Ben Nelson any attention if they only ever TALKED a good game about sockulism but always fell in line when the D’s voted for whatever. It’s only because he is willing to fuck everything up that we have to worry about him.

    So one argument is that the reason we went from single payer to public option to opt out public option to maybe opt-in public option, is because everyone knew that the liberals would vote for something to pass, even if it didn’t have their preferred mechanism, while the conservatives would throw a fit and derail the whole thing. So the liberal option was compromised away time and again, and we ended up with a bill Nixon would have happily signed.

    So DK drawing lines in the sand and not crossing them is, in a sense, useful. The problem is that in this case the conservatives really ARE willing to torpedo the whole thing and have no reform happen, so DK has nothing to hold over them, so all the principle in the world will only buy him limited leverage, and he stands a very real risk of doing way more harm than good.

  338. 338.

    ds

    In California, an effort to launch a state health care system was sandbagged by progressives, who were furious that it was not funded by a single payer method.

    False.

    Schwarzenegger’s plans were dead in the water because of the 2/3 vote requirement for taxation and the budget, which any health care reform effort would have required.

    Some Republicans would have had to sign on. None were willing to.

    Democrats didn’t feel like pushing a bill that was dead from the very beginning.

    Some lefties responded to the failure by saying “well, it wasn’t real reform anyway. We need single payer.” That’s a natural response.

    But I have no doubts that progressive Dems in the state legislature would have voted for the reforms if they had managed to come up.

  342. 342.

    JasonF

    If you’re a liberal, you should not be angry at Rep. Kucinich for his vote. Follow along with me.

    1. Nancy Pelosi, Stenny Hoyer, and James Clyburn know how to count to 218. They knew how many votes they needed, and they knew how to whip the caucus to get those votes.

    2. A bill either passes or it doesn’t pass. A bill that passes with 220 votes has passed. So has a bill that passes with 259 votes. So there isn’t necessarily a reason to get those 39 no-voting Democrats into the yes column. Sometimes you do it anyway — to send a message — but sometimes you don’t.

    3. So if you are Speaker Pelosi and Leader Hoyer and you determine that you can let 39 Democrats go, who do you choose? The easiest answer is to choose the 39 Democrats who are in the most conservative districts. Give them their “No” votes and let them go back to their constituents and say they tried to stop the evil soshulist plot, all the while knowing that if you really need their votes, you’ll be able to get them.

    4. That’s not what the leadership did, though. They freed Rep. Kucinich to vote no (and maybe others on the left — I haven’t gone through the roll call to see who was voting no from the left as opposed to from the right). This sends a message. The message is that this bill is in the middle. We’ve been hearing all sorts of criticism from the right, but this is a reminder that the bill that’s being passed is not exactly what the left wants either. It makes the bill look more moderate than it would if all the criticism were coming from the left.

    So if you think this bill doesn’t go far enough, don’t be mad at Rep. Kucinich for voting no. Don’t criticize him as a starry-eyed idealist who is willing to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Recognize that this is kabuki, and the Democratic leaders in the House sacrificed some Blue Dog’s ability to trumpet his fiscal conservatism in order to allow Rep. Kucinich to remind us all that the bill is not as far left as many would prefer.

  343. 343.

    Steeplejack

    I’m feeling a little verklempt tonight. Out of all the fog and doubt of the past months has come at last something concrete. This thing is not a done deal yet, by any means, but things are looking a little better than they were yesterday.

    I have been listening to miscellaneous MP3s tonight that I culled from various sources, and this song–MC Yogi, “Vote for Hope”–came up a little while ago in shuffle mode. It brought tears to my eyes. It’s the song that got me through the home stretch of the election last year. Synchronicity.

  347. 347.

    bago

    Damned Boehner drinking game knocked my ass out. Let’s pretend I mentioned something about concern trolls, Nancy Pelosi, wonkette, and some vaguely sexual joke.

  351. 351.

    Brachiator

    @ds:

    Schwarzenegger’s plans were dead in the water because of the 2/3 vote requirement for taxation and the budget, which any health care reform effort would have required.

    People blame the California 2/3 vote requirement for everything, from crab grass to the Yankee World Series victory. The truth is always more complicated. The California legislature plays all kinds of games with the voters, including lining up support for a plan but retaining an escape hatch if things don’t look good.

    One analysis on California’s past failed health care reform efforts, and Sheila Kuehl’s role in the debacle:

    In California, the vocal state nurses’ union and the Democratic chairwoman of the state Senate Health Committee, Sheila Kuehl, were furious that lawmakers refused to back a single-payer system in which the government would supplant private insurers. Kuehl’s committee was the one that killed Schwarzenegger’s plan.

    Another analysis of health care reform Assembly Bill 8, notes the following remarks by Sheila Kuehl:

    Senator Kuehl’s statement in opposing AB 8 was generous in her praise for those who had worked on the bill and their improvements to it. But in the end, she told the Senate that she had learned of the problems caused by any approach that retains insurance.

    One commenter to the article noted:

    Californians are dying now for lack of health care. While I much prefer single-payer, and will keep pressing for it, many people can’t afford to wait until it arrives. This bill would help millions of people, and I’m grateful to everyone who worked on a truly progressive proposal that could actually get through both houses.

    There are people who style themselves as progressives who don’t give a damn how many people suffer while they bask in the self-reflected glory of their ideological purity.

  352. 352.

    ds

    The 2/3 vote made passage impossible, so yeah, I am going to blame it for killing California health care reform.

    Schwarzenegger spent from January 2007 through the summer trying to win over Republican legislators who, despite their minority status in both the Assembly and Senate, had the power to halt passage, which required a two-thirds vote.

    The truth is that the votes weren’t there, and once that was apparent to everyone, the whole effort crumbled.

    Even if the Democrats had enthusiastically boosted the Schwarzenegger bill and voted for it unanimously, it simply would have not have passed.

    Vote totals matter. The only reason that national health care reform is alive at this point is that Democrats have 60 votes in the Senate. Otherwise it would have been quietly scuttled by now.

  353. 353.

    ds

    Note: AB8 was not Schwarzenegger’s bill.

    It was a Democratic alternative designed in a way to skirt the 2/3 vote requirement, once it was clear that Schwarzenegger’s bill did not have 2/3 support. It passed on a majority vote in both houses of the California legislature, but then it was vetoed by Schwarzenegger.

  356. 356.

    arguingwithsignposts

    Wow, 350 comments! I assume some sort of monumental legislation passed while I was asleep? :) And, congrats AsiangrrlMN on the NaNoWriMo goal.

  360. 360.

    Obama Death Panel Chairman (formerly glocksman)

    Some belated comments:

    1. I’d prefer single payer, but I’ll take what we can get while working towards more later.

    2. Chaka Khan rules my world. Tell Me Something Good is a classic that makes its way to every USB stick in my car stereo.

    3. In a similar vein, Amazing Grace is one of those songs that never fails to bring tears to my eyes.

    Much like listening to a version of The Battle Hymn of the Republic that sings every verse, I guess the song reminds me of what we should aspire to be.

    Yes, I’m a sentimental bastard who frankly believes in the ideals that the USA is supposed to stand for and I’m proud to do so.

    That idealism is what converted this one time Reagan Republican to an Obama Democrat.

    This somewhat rambing post is brought to you by Jim Beam. :)

  364. 364.

    Obama Death Panel Chairman (formerly glocksman)

    @Chuck Butcher:

    There is that concern, but I remain hopeful.
    Though time will tell if I’m merely whistling as I walk past the graveyard, so to speak.

  365. 365.

    mai naem

    I see a little too much ragging on the FDL types here. I am sure the House bill would be a whole lot worse without the Jane Hamshers of the world. Give the progressives some credit here.
    I got a little tired of listening to Nancy Pelosi et al talking about the “courage” of the Dem. members of Congress. Courage was Southern Dems passing Civil Rights legislation. Courage was voting against the war while being from a wingnut district. Single payer would have been courage. Voting for a watered down healthcare reform bill is not courage. That is their job. If they can’t even sell that much, they are not good politicians.

  367. 367.

    sparky

    at the risk of being called a troll, i think it’s a bit disappointing to see so much yippie here over something that is, yes something, but not much of a something. a triumph of really wildly diminished expectations.

    did anyone really think with a democratic majority in the House that nothing was going to pass? seriously? failing to pass something would have been about as popular as raising the gas tax by several dollars a gallon.

    i don’t think there’s any point in getting excited about it until the reconciliation version is generated. then there will be something to discuss.

    and yes, it is still possible that something could end up being worse than nothing. i hope that’s not so but to assume it can’t happen is its own form of naive thinking.

    example? people thought no child left behind was a step forward too, once upon a time. and in this bill the Stupak nastiness is already a poison pill. be careful what you wish for.

    perhaps a useful indicator of what we are going to get, IMO, would be the stock activity of the major insurers. not monday, because the people not in the know will trade then.

    either way, we shall see.

    let the party pooper brickbat throwing commence!

    /ducks

  368. 368.

    Xenos

    Expectations are so low after the last few years that just getting this weak, weak bill through the House is a relief. If we could not get this through then I would argue that the political system is truly dysfunctional and that we have a profound constitutional crisis to deal with.

    So consider this as a ‘yippie’ for the fact that we are probably less than 90% fucked.

  371. 371.

    colleeniem

    DougJ-if you’re listening–an inside NY baseball question.

    Do you have any idea why Massa voted no? I am always plesantly surprised at how progressive (relatively speaking) Maffei is, and my county (while not the most populous) went for McCain. Its been a long, long time since we’ve had a demo rep.

    Congrats though :).

  373. 373.

    MysticalChick

    I’m posting before reading the comments to thank whomever put up the link to that acoustic Prince. He’s human! Who knew?? Great, great stuff. (I loves me some Prince.)

    Did anyone else hear the story (don’t know how true it was) that Michael Jackson believed God gave him guidance and information when he slept and if he didn’t sleep, he’d miss it. His greatest fear? That God would give it to Prince instead. heheh

    Thanks again! Started my Sunday off perfectly.

  375. 375.

    dSquib

    FFS — my local rep, a Democrat in a heavily Democrat Chicago district, voted for Stupak’s “pro-sepsis amendment”.

    That said, my district, encompassing some low income areas as well as hipsterville, probably has a fair view socially conservative Democratic voters…

  377. 377.

    dSquib

    Must say that Cao’s Vietnamese heritage just seems to be begging for tea-bagger conspiracy theory angles.

  378. 378.

    JenJen

    Well, g[i]oooooooooooooo[/i]d morning, soc.ialist fucksticks!

    Quite a night, wasn’t it? I’m still a little sleepy, but Frank Luntz is on my teevee acting douchey right now. I think he might have taken his earring out and everything.

  379. 379.

    Ron

    @colleeniem: I’m not in Massa’s district, but everything I’ve heard is he was voting no because he didn’t think this bill did enough. He’s a single-payer guy. So his reasoning was probably like Kucinich’s. I’d like to believe that one or both of those guys would have voted yes if someone came to them and said “we don’t have the votes without you”.

  380. 380.

    Joel

    q. looking everywhere for this; does the stupak amendment specify that the po health care funds don’t go to funding abortion? or abortion providers for non-abortion services as well?

  382. 382.

    Raincitygirl

    Joel, the Hyde Amendment already prohibits any public funds from going towards abortion. What this amendment does is make it so anybody who’s on a private plan, BUT they purchase their private plan through an “exchange” or receive any government subsidies whatsoever to help pay for that private plan, said private plan cannot cover abortions. Which, given that a lot of people who don’t get subsidies will be purchasing their private plans through an exchange, means it casts a significantly wider net than the Hyde Amendment. Poor women were already screwed by the Hyde Amendment. The Stupak Amendment extends said screwing to middle-class women who can’t get insurance through their employer.

    Furthermore, at the moment, approximately 80% of private plans will pay for abortion. If the Stupak Amendment passes, there’s a very good chance that private insurers will leap at the opportunity to take abortion out of existing plans, on the grounds that it’s too expensive to have two parallel types of plans, one for people who get subsidies and/or buy through an exchange, and one for everybody else. It’s a gift-wrapped opportunity for the insurance companies to quit funding something they currently fund, on the grounds of economy. And the US private healthcare market does not seem to be replete with medical procedures that the average insurer will pay for without a struggle, so having one more thing added to the “we won’t pay for it” list is pissing people off. It’s also an incredibly cost-inefficient measure. The major reason why so many private plans will pay for abortions, even in conservative states or with conservative employers, is because it’s MUCH cheaper for the insurer to pay a few hundred bucks for a first trimester abortion than to pay for the various costs a woman incurs while pregnant and then when she gives birth. Furthermore, a first trimester abortion is also cheaper than a miscarriage followed by an emergency D & C. Or a botched attempt at a homemade abortion followed by sepsis.

    Finally, it’s also not 100% clear whether the Stupak Amendment would apply to elective abortions only, or if insurance companies would also apply it to abortions performed to preserve the woman’s health. Because a woman who’s just had to abort a planned pregnancy so she can, say, safely undergo chemotherapy, or avoid bleeding to death and leaving her existing kids without a mom, that woman *totally* wants to fight with her insurance company over who has to pay for her surgery. And yes, both those scenarios have happened to women I know personally, although in neither case did they get hassles about paying for it. Which isn’t to say that women who get elective abortions are less “worthy” of getting to make that decision for themselves. But it kind of adds insult to injury when someone who didn’t have much of a choice is subsequently told her insurance won’t pay for her medically necessary care.

    Please note that the healthcare system which covers US servicepeople and their dependents is one of the few plans which explicitly bans paying for abortion. And there have been multiple incidents over the years of that particular public plan refusing to pay for medically necessary abortions for servicepeople or their dependents. Even though technically speaking it’s only supposed to refuse payment for elective abortions, the bean-counters often “forget” that part. And a lot of women enrolled in that plan simply don’t realise that they can appeal said decision. Usually it only gets appealed and then overruled when the family is in pretty desperate financial straits, and the expense of paying for the medically necessary abortion is worse than the publicity of being known as “that Army wife who killed her baby”.

  383. 383.

    charles johnson

    I think there’s two irreconcilable points in the above. Let’s look at two bits:

    Let’s call this Part 1:

    “If the Stupak Amendment passes, there’s a very good chance that private insurers will leap at the opportunity to take abortion out of existing plans, on the grounds that it’s too expensive to have two parallel types of plans, one for people who get subsidies and/or buy through an exchange, and one for everybody else. It’s a gift-wrapped opportunity for the insurance companies to quit funding something they currently fund, on the grounds of economy”.

    now lets call this bit Part 2:

    “It’s also an incredibly cost-inefficient measure. The major reason why so many private plans will pay for abortions, even in conservative states or with conservative employers, is because it’s MUCH cheaper for the insurer to pay a few hundred bucks for a first trimester abortion than to pay for the various costs a woman incurs while pregnant and then when she gives birth. Furthermore, a first trimester abortion is also cheaper than a miscarriage followed by an emergency D & C. Or a botched attempt at a homemade abortion followed by sepsis.”

    I submit that these two things cannot both be true. Part 1 says insurance companies will quickly use any excuse to stop paying for abortion. Part 2 says insurance companies happily pay for cheap abortions in order to avoid more expensive costs of pregnancies. It’s one or the other, but it can’t be both.

Comments are closed.

Trackbacks