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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Searching for Adolf Hitler

Searching for Adolf Hitler

by DougJ|  November 17, 200910:03 am| 93 Comments

This post is in: Foreign Affairs, Assholes, Good News For Conservatives

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I agree with Atrios that the “great failure of the Right since their awesome adventure in Iraq has been to create a new Hitler for us to fear and fight”. I don’t think that Chavez or Kim Jong-Il cuts it. And I think the Hitler-within strategy they’re trying with Obama genuinely does alienate those moderate voters Cokie and Broder are always talking about.

The logical candidate for the next Hitler is China. While the right has yet to settle on a single Chinese leader as Hitleresque, that shouldn’t be a problem. There must be some with Maoist ties and, in the Beckian calculus, that pretty much makes them Hitler.

Yesterday, two prominent neocons, Bobo and Niall Ferguson, both started in on this (I’m positive they coordinated these things). Ferguson warned Americans about the dangers of Chinese aircraft carriers. Bobo explained that the reason Americans feel shitty right now isn’t that they don’t have jobs and health insurance, it’s that we’re jealous of China; the solution to this, interestingly enough, is to move to a Chinese-style government-directed economy.

Now, I don’t think an actual war, or even a Cold War, with China is in the cards. But I think conservatives could say things like “if China gets to Mars before we do, we lose” or “if we don’t build more aircraft carriers, then there will be an aircraft carrier gap and then what” or “if we don’t let Phil Gramm have control of the economy, we can’t compete”. And, of course, Obama can be accused of dithering about China, lacking a comprehensive Chinese policy, and so on.

I’m not sure this will work, but they’ve got to give it a try.

Update. I would be remiss if I didn’t point out how awful the first two paragraphs of Bobo’s piece are, not just because they summarize all of American history in four sentences, but because of the way the opening resembles an unholy marriage of Neil Young’s “Helpless” and the last chapter of The Great Gatsby.

Update update. This is interesting, from commenter comrade scott’s agenda of rage:

Hi, former intelligence officer here responsible for, among other things, Chinese naval stuff, back when I was at the Pentagon.

Yes, a lot has changed in the last 15 years in China’s military, new weapons systems, better production of higher tech things, etc.

One thing hasn’t changed: the answer to the strategic question regarding a Chinese aircraft carrier. That answer? They don’t need any. Sure, they might build 1-2 just to show the world they can do it but that’s it.

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Reader Interactions

93Comments

  1. 1.

    geg6

    November 17, 2009 at 10:05 am

    I, for one, welcome our new Chinese overlords.

  2. 2.

    Chad S

    November 17, 2009 at 10:11 am

    Ferguson does realize that the only functional carrier prototype that the Chinese have is sitting in a man made lake 50 miles from the sea? And that the Carriers the Chinese are shooting for(which always get delayed because they can’t get them to work right) couldn’t project power because they don’t have the escort or strike capability due to their size limitations.

  3. 3.

    The Bearded Blogger

    November 17, 2009 at 10:12 am

    Too bad you don’t have any of those perpetually-smiling-shifty-eyed-long-thin-moustache-and-goatee-type chinamen anymore. They’d make great boogiemen

  4. 4.

    David in NY

    November 17, 2009 at 10:13 am

    I am pleased to see that you have properly filed this post in “Assholes.”

  5. 5.

    Redshirt

    November 17, 2009 at 10:16 am

    Neverending War will always need a Goldstein. Any Goldstein will do.

  6. 6.

    Derelict

    November 17, 2009 at 10:16 am

    Uh, there’s been a push among the neo-cons to start a war with China for about 15 years now. Bolten, Kristol, Pipes, and a bunch of others have been advocating that China is our Number One Enemy, and we need to take pre-emptive action to prevent a slanty-eyed take-over.

    That melody is the same–only the lyrics have changed.

  7. 7.

    comrade scott's agenda of rage

    November 17, 2009 at 10:17 am

    Hi, former intelligence officer here responsible for, among other things, Chinese naval stuff, back when I was at the Pentagon.

    Yes, a lot has changed in the last 15 years in China’s military, new weapons systems, better production of higher tech things, etc.

    One thing hasn’t changed: the answer to the strategic question regarding a Chinese aircraft carrier. That answer? They don’t need any. Sure, they might build 1-2 just to show the world they can do it but that’s it.

    Morans like Ferguson who branch out into shit they know nothing about always look at weapons systems in isolation. They *never* examine why they’re built and what strategic, national, security need they fill.

    Chinese never has needed such a system. The only power the Chinese want to project is at Taiwan, and to a lesser extent in the South China Sea. The latter could change the strategic equation if it ever comes up with massive oil reserves but assuming it doesn’t, then China has no need for a power projection system such as a carrier.

    China’s taken a different tack with Taiwan in that it now has a bazillion missiles pointed at them, adequate air and ground forces to invade if need be and enough mine-laying boats to clog the Straits.

    Like I said, weapon systems are not built in a vacuum. Since the dawn of time, systems from the Macedonian phalanx to the Roman cohortal structure to the modern carrier battle group, serve an operational need that serves to fulfill strategic functions of the political entity.

    Sheesh, worried about Chinese aircraft carriers. My experience in the intel community was that anytime you heard somebody yell that, you knew they were a political hack with an agenda that went counter to all the intel and analysis. Alas, CIA was full of people just like that.

  8. 8.

    Mirthless Chopper - Frmrly TheFountainHead

    November 17, 2009 at 10:18 am

    Turning China into Hitler is going to be harder than they think. There is a lot of reeeaaallyy good Chinese food in this country, and that’s gonna be hard to give up as part of a communist plot to destroy our precious fluids.

  9. 9.

    Leelee for Obama

    November 17, 2009 at 10:19 am

    I wonder sometimes why I even listen to Niall Ferguson. I think it’s the accent-but I just remind myself constantly that one can sound intelligent and still be full of shit, so I discard what he says shortly after hearing it. Bobo hasn’t gotten my attention more than 2 or 3 times in years.

    China can be a problem on many levels, mostly because they are on the Security Council and jam us up there quite often. But, I think the idea of real conflict, even in a Cold War type of thing, isn’t likely. They will be an economic problem for the foreseeable future, maybe forever. That is something only we can fix, either with tariffs, or by making some necessaries here that compete with their price points, as well as shutting down the theft of intellectual property and technology. Again, like the al queda/taliban issue-we need to protect ourselves here, and stop worrying about what they do. If they have less effect on us, they are not the problem Bobo and Ferguson want them to be.

  10. 10.

    aimai

    November 17, 2009 at 10:20 am

    So the “jews of asia” have finally discovered mercantilism and entrepreneurialism? I did not know that.

    aimai

  11. 11.

    MattF

    November 17, 2009 at 10:21 am

    I remember when right-wingers were worked up over the Soviet presence in Afghanistan because it meant that the Ruskies were about to get a warm-water seaport. No, really.

  12. 12.

    Kevin

    November 17, 2009 at 10:21 am

    Yeah, I’m sure average Americans are jealous of China and it’s sub-saharan Africa like per capita GDP. Seriously, China can do well because of cheap labour. Lots and lots of it. And most people there (the aformentioned cheap labour), lead poor lives in terrible conditions. Honestly, I don’t see even the poorest trailer park resident enviening that life. Not even a little.

  13. 13.

    dmsilev

    November 17, 2009 at 10:22 am

    @Mirthless Chopper – Frmrly TheFountainHead: Renaming will solve that. It’s been done before, long before Freedom Fries. During WWI, sauerkraut became “Liberty Cabbage”.

    -dms

  14. 14.

    Napoleon

    November 17, 2009 at 10:24 am

    @Derelict:

    This is exactly right. 9/11 waylaid the whole effort but don’t forget that is exactly what they were jonesing for at the time. Am I the only person who remembers their reaction when the Chineese brought down that US spy plane between Bush being sworn in and 9/11?

  15. 15.

    donovong

    November 17, 2009 at 10:24 am

    @comrade scott’s agenda of rage: You make it awfully hard to be all snarky and such, what with your cogent and thoughtful analysis. Party pooper.

  16. 16.

    DougJ

    November 17, 2009 at 10:25 am

    So the “jews of asia” have finally discovered mercantilism and entrepreneurialism? I did not know that.

    I thought the “jew of Asia” were the Koreans. One thing that I find interesting is that there are various groups who are alternately described as “Irish” and “Jews” of their respective regions (Koreans and Bengalis come to mind). They seem to regard the Jewish comparison as a compliment and the Irish one as an insult.

  17. 17.

    comrade scott's agenda of rage

    November 17, 2009 at 10:26 am

    @donovong:

    I so rarely get to use all that national security experience I acquired before tossing it all in the shitpot to move here to East Bumfuck.

  18. 18.

    Legalize

    November 17, 2009 at 10:26 am

    Yeah, I’m not giving up the Chinese dumplings. Sorry. No war.

  19. 19.

    PeakVT

    November 17, 2009 at 10:27 am

    Are Bobo and Fergie willing to raise taxes significantly? Otherwise we will be going into debt to the Chinese… to protect ourselves from the Chinese.

    Oh, it burns us, it does.

  20. 20.

    asiangrrlMN

    November 17, 2009 at 10:27 am

    Please, DougJ, I am begging you. You have to do shorters when posting entries like this, or else I will be forced to read Bobo, and my eyes will explode fluids all over my monitor. Do you really want to take responsibility for that?

  21. 21.

    R-Jud

    November 17, 2009 at 10:27 am

    @comrade scott’s agenda of rage:

    My experience in the intel community was that anytime you heard somebody yell that, you knew they were a political hack with an agenda that went counter to all the intel and analysis. Alas, CIA was full of people just like that.

    This is why I don’t sleep well.

    Or why we can’t have nice things. I forget.

  22. 22.

    Cerberus

    November 17, 2009 at 10:29 am

    I disagree actually. I believe The New Hitler TM is merely a propaganda device for what has really been eating them up and driving them into desperation:

    The Search for a New Soviet Union.

    I suspect the conservatising of America owed huge dividends to how successfully everyone was frightened of being nuked into nothingness. Suddenly, fear was everywhere, people could be trained to think of only short term gains, because tomorrow no one would be left alive, you could train an entire religious cult movement (the rapturists) to literally long for the sweet embrace of death and actually agitate for things getting worse and everyone was looking to a big strong daddy figure to show them what for. Hell, you even had a giant tool to use against any left-minded or equality driven protest group or individual that tied him directly to an image of total annihilation.

    Ever since the fall of the Berlin Wall, they’ve been running scared trying to recapture that juicy age, calling democrats commies, claiming God himself will destroy the world if we allow gay marriage, rapturists, Y2K, 2012, and of course trying to paint the middle eastern terrorists as the same type of existential threat.

    The last worked well enough to have a Reagan II party, but it’s already wearing out. Sure, they’re trying to kickstart it with a bunch of talk about KSM harnessing his super strength and Iran will have the bomb and then it’ll totally nuke our asses, but people are mostly tired and less open to believing that they constitute an existential threat when homegrown Christian terrorists seem to strike with far greater frequency.

    Eventually the people they still have running scared from the evils of the Cold War will have all died, while people who were not even born yet continue to fall into voting age and then they’ll have to find a new methodology to finance their genocidal habits.

  23. 23.

    asiangrrlMN

    November 17, 2009 at 10:29 am

    @Legalize: Can make them yourself. It’s fairly easy! Then, no need to submit to our Chinese overlords.

    @PeakVT: Pish-posh! You with your fancy-schmancy pay for it talk. You are shrill and unserious.

  24. 24.

    comrade scott's agenda of rage

    November 17, 2009 at 10:30 am

    @DougJ:

    So did I. Again going back to my intel days, a fellow analyst at the Pentagon always referred to the Koreans in that way mainly in the context of the peninsula’s 20th century history, ie., being screwed six ways from Tuesday by Japan.

    Not a perfect analogy but one that does seem to quickly provide people with a handle on what it’s meant to be Korean the last 100 years or so.

    When I was traveling there regularly, I’d always tell my Korean counterparts that I thought they were a country full of used-car salesmen. They absolutely *loved* that, particularly if they were re-screwing the Japanese in some transaction.

  25. 25.

    Cat Lady

    November 17, 2009 at 10:30 am

    When the right screams everything is just like Hitler, than nothing is like Hitler, so they’ve already used up all those bullets, 10 months into this administration. All they can do now is pretend the finger in their pocket is a loaded gun, and have teabaggers screaming and hoisting signs that say “I have a gub”. I’d like to see them wrestle with Chinese.

    Oh, and every morning my first thought is that I wish I were a Chinese peasant/

  26. 26.

    Morbo

    November 17, 2009 at 10:31 am

    They were trying to send us down that road in the early months of the Bush administration. The neocons wanted a harder line after the Hainan Island incident and didn’t get it in the payoff. September 11 interrupted their efforts to make China the bad guy, but it provided Osama bin Hitler, so they got what they wanted in the end.

    Also, aircraft carriers are dinosaurs at this point in any engagement with a technologically comparable enemy. An aircraft carrier race would be pointless strategically as they would all be blown out of the water by SRBMs in an actual conflict. On the other hand, building a new one would provide a lot of jobs…

  27. 27.

    Mark

    November 17, 2009 at 10:32 am

    Kevin @ 12: Very true. I was in China when I was 25. People would ask me what kind of food I cooked at home. I said somewhat sheepishly that I ate out for almost every meal.

    Even in Shanghai, which is extremely wealthy compared to the rest of the country, people thought I was messing with them. The notion that anyone could afford to eat 14 restaurant meals a week – even at McDonald’s – was beyond their comprehension.

  28. 28.

    Comrade Tudor

    November 17, 2009 at 10:32 am

    OT, but I just got this from SarahPAC (which I did NOT sign up for…someone hates me)

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    Our nation is at a critical crossroads, but the way forward is clear. Ronald Reagan showed us the way. He entered office during an economic recession even worse than our current one, but he left office after overseeing the largest peacetime economic expansion in American history. His policies worked! He charted the course for us.

    C. S. Lewis once wrote: “We all want progress, but if you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road.” We need to get back on the right road. In order to progress, we must return to our founding principles of limited government, fiscal responsibility, and strong national defense.

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  29. 29.

    R. Porrofatto

    November 17, 2009 at 10:33 am

    They may try to portray China as one more scary bogeyman to justify our spending trillions on war stuff so that the mansions in Virginia and Maryland can keep getting bigger, but it will never be anything more than propaganda. There are too many U.S. corporations and investors making too much money in China, not to mention all the cheap labor to be had for manufacturing plants.

  30. 30.

    Keith G

    November 17, 2009 at 10:33 am

    @geg6: Fuck yeah. Good mu shu is really hard to find.

    Not that anything Bobo writes makes any sense, but lately I have got the feeling that since he was one of the first of his ilk to dump on GWB and then to fall for Obama, “He lights up the room”, Brooksie need to polish up some sterner conservative cred.

    He’s been lobbing grenades at Obama for silly reasons and I bet soon he will be bringing up Quemoy and Matsu (you youngins might need to look this up)

    Not only is this about his realignment, but Bobo, in his mind, is a trend spotter – if not a trend setter. Betting on some Obama fail is not new enough, but to add the triple bank shot of a resurgent militaristic conflict with China, now there is a trend worth typing about.

  31. 31.

    comrade scott's agenda of rage

    November 17, 2009 at 10:34 am

    Oh, and every morning my first thought is that I wish I were a Chinese peasant

    Hope you like outdoor plumbing, or squatting a lot. We’ve got a nice three-holer here from a bygone era. Nothing like dumping an overnight “slop bucket” in the morning when it’s 0 degrees outside.

  32. 32.

    Ken

    November 17, 2009 at 10:34 am

    Napoleon @14: You’re not the only one who remembers the summer of 2001. It also brings up the problem with picking your Hitler in advance – sometimes you get the wrong guy. You might even ignore the real problem, in favor of the war you’d prefer to fight.

  33. 33.

    Leelee for Obama

    November 17, 2009 at 10:35 am

    @R-Jud:

    This is why I don’t sleep well.

    Or why we can’t have nice things. I forget.

    It’s both. I worry constantly that we will follow some political hack posing as an analyst into another really bad place. Our history makes that worry very real.

    If we hadn’t decided to so much of our Treasury into a bloated defense system that somehow is never enough to prosecute the wars that we get embroiled in, we could have a powerful social safety net that didn’t make us look like a third-world nation in need of assistance from other countries.

  34. 34.

    Dream On

    November 17, 2009 at 10:36 am

    A fight with China? This is excellent news for the world economy!

  35. 35.

    El Cid

    November 17, 2009 at 10:36 am

    I’m sorry, I just can’t take seriously the notion that either Niall Ferguson or David Brooks give the slightest shit about whether what they say is true in the least or not. They don’t. They say whatever their ideologies lead them to say.

  36. 36.

    Mark

    November 17, 2009 at 10:37 am

    One thing that surprised me – during the Olympic torch run, the right had the perfect opportunity to demagogue China. They could have played off the publicity surrounding the Tibet protests and painted the Chinese as racists bent on World Domination (TM). Were they unwilling to share a hatred with hippie protesters? Or are they incapable of remembering what they’re actually opposed to?

  37. 37.

    Col. Klink

    November 17, 2009 at 10:37 am

    China is the One True enemy and the Wingnuts should beware of General Tso and his spicy plot for Szechuan domination.

  38. 38.

    MikeJ

    November 17, 2009 at 10:38 am

    Of course China has to be the enemy. If we’re only fighting AQ or poor countries like Pakistan we really don’t need F-35s or F-22s. We have to have a peer competitor so that we’ll have a justification for spending .5-.75 trillion dollars/yr on defense. If the chinese aren’t the bogeyman what will happen to my Lockheed Martin stock?

  39. 39.

    jeffreyw

    November 17, 2009 at 10:40 am

    @asiangrrlMN: @Legalize: Can make them yourself. It’s fairly easy! Then, no need to submit to our Chinese overlords.

    Ahem

  40. 40.

    Greg

    November 17, 2009 at 10:41 am

    Sorry, I have to disagree. Murdoch loves the Chinese. (And not his wife – only the profit involved) Fox will not support this. And Fox is the leader Check over the years – Fox never went over the top against any China controversy e.g. poison tooth paste, unsafe drywall, lack of democracy, Taiwan etc. It’s all about what’s in it for Rupert

  41. 41.

    ScottRock

    November 17, 2009 at 10:41 am

    K-Thug had something along the same lines, only a bit more sensible, yesterday.

    Bobo lately has been full of Freud. Sheesh.

  42. 42.

    Nutella

    November 17, 2009 at 10:41 am

    I always wonder about how these calls are made. Does Rush or Drudge call up Ferguson and Brooks to give them their marching orders? “Today’s fear-mongering issue is China. Write an article about why we are afraid of China.”

    Probably not Rush or Drudge. I think they are recipients of these calls, too. Maybe Richard Mellon Scaife has them all on speed dial.

  43. 43.

    geg6

    November 17, 2009 at 10:43 am

    @comrade scott’s agenda of rage:

    Oh, I agree. I have a good friend, a native Korean married to an American, who positively revels in her used-car saleswoman persona. And she, too, has said Koreans are the Jews of Asia.

  44. 44.

    Breezeblock

    November 17, 2009 at 10:43 am

    What happened to President DinnerJacket in Iran as the new Hitler? Did I miss something?

    Dammit Beavis, I can’t keep up with all the new Hitlers. If only the Defense Department would come up with some sort of deck of playing cards with all the different Hitlers in the world.

  45. 45.

    null pointer exception

    November 17, 2009 at 10:44 am

    Does China even have a blue water navy?

  46. 46.

    Comrade Dread

    November 17, 2009 at 10:44 am

    Now, I don’t think an actual war, or even a Cold War, with China is in the cards.

    Not unless the Chinese are willing to loan us more money to pay to bomb them.

  47. 47.

    Derelict

    November 17, 2009 at 10:46 am

    @Dream On:

    You think the Neo-Loons give a flying fuck about the world economy?

    No, wait a minute. That’s actually a terribly unfair statement. Kristol and the boys do care about the world economy. It’s just that they are utterly incapable of imagining the consequences of the actions they want to see taken. Thus we invaded Iraq, but had not even a glimmer of what to do with it after we won.

    The Neo-Loons are like dogs chasing a truck in that respect.

  48. 48.

    rzklkng

    November 17, 2009 at 10:47 am

    In the very early days of Bush the younger, Mama Cheney was agitating to challenge China. Prior to 9/11, the neocons were dismayed that we had not confronted China with regards to the ‘spy plane’.

  49. 49.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    November 17, 2009 at 10:47 am

    @Legalize:

    Yeah, I’m not giving up the Chinese dumplings. Sorry. No war.

    Ditto that. I’m not giving up their tea either. The neocons can have my Tie Guan Yin when they pry my cold dead fingers off the teapot handle.

    Given the last 1100 years worth of Chinese history, I’m not really all that worried that conquering us over-the-sea barbarians by military means is really very high on their agenda. If you aren’t Vietnamese, or one of the various groups on China’s internal frontiers with Central Asia and the Himalayan uplands (e.g. Uighers, Tibetans, etc.), then historically the Han have been just about the least expansionist of the major imperial powers for roughly the last millenium and then some (e.g. since about the middle of the Tang dynasty, and not counting the Yuan dynasty era attempts at invading Japan – which was a Mongol project). The neocons are going to have to find a different group to be their bogeyman, I think.

  50. 50.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    November 17, 2009 at 10:50 am

    @R. Porrofatto: I had a similar thought. It would be interesting to see just how far they could both push the War with East Asia and dodge the fact Staunch ReaLAMErican Capitalists relocated the factories for most of our crap to East Asia.

    ‘Cos really, if you think Hitler is making your teevees, you need to get a non-Hitler made teevee or shut up.

  51. 51.

    The Moar You Know

    November 17, 2009 at 10:50 am

    We’ll help candidates (regardless of party) who have the courage to go to Washington or serve statewide and make the tough decisions needed to get our country back on track.

    @Comrade Tudor: Republican OR Nazi – The Big Tent is back, bitches!

  52. 52.

    The Golux

    November 17, 2009 at 10:50 am

    @comrade scott’s agenda of rage: I hear nice things about East Bumfuck.

  53. 53.

    Kevin

    November 17, 2009 at 10:50 am

    Seriously, the average Chinese person lives in a Dickensian nightmare or low wages, horrible working conditions, and endentured servitude. But apparently the Americans at the Appleby’s salad bar (aka, “Real ‘merican’s”) told Brooks that they envy their…optimisim? Is this man really the most read columnist in Washington? Do people really take him seriously.

    Brooks is also one of the more annoying commentators to watch on TV. He has this simpering, whining quality about the way he talks. Honestly, i’m not a violent guy, but I feel like punching my TV when he’s on.

  54. 54.

    OriGuy

    November 17, 2009 at 10:51 am

    @asiangrrlMN:

    I will be forced to read Bobo, and my eyes will explode fluids all over my monitor.

    You have to use welding glass, like when you’re looking at a solar eclipse.

  55. 55.

    donr

    November 17, 2009 at 10:51 am

    “Yes” to everything Comrade Scott said.

    I do wonder, though, whether China also wants to assert its military (as well as its economic and diplomatic) power against Japan. Not immediately, but further down the road. It seems possible that the sort of grievance the PRC has against TW could also be mobilized by a more virulently nationalist Chinese government against Japan. Maybe enough time has passed that it would be hard to mobilize the country into a more hostile stance against Japan, but I’m not sure.

  56. 56.

    DougJ

    November 17, 2009 at 10:53 am

    Sorry, I have to disagree. Murdoch loves the Chinese. (And not his wife – only the profit involved) Fox will not support this. And Fox is the leader Check over the years – Fox never went over the top against any China controversy e.g. poison tooth paste, unsafe drywall, lack of democracy, Taiwan etc. It’s all about what’s in it for Rupert.

    This is a good point. But I still think we can convince ourselves to race them to the moon and build more aircraft carriers.

  57. 57.

    The Moar You Know

    November 17, 2009 at 10:53 am

    Does China even have a blue water navy?

    @null pointer exception: Yep. They’ve been doing some work keeping Somali pirates clear of shipping.

  58. 58.

    Nutella

    November 17, 2009 at 10:54 am

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ:

    It does seem to be only their immediate neighbors who have to worry about military takeover by China, but economic influence is a different matter. China has been investing heavily in Africa recently and will end up with a lot of influence there because of those investments.

  59. 59.

    comrade scott's agenda of rage

    November 17, 2009 at 10:56 am

    Does China even have a blue water navy?

    It’s not that simple since the question paints the navy as having an either/or capability.

    Yes, China has a blue water capability with many assets built over the last 30 years, mainly with its destroyers (although the Jianxxx series of frigates provide a modest blue water capability).

    They’ve had at-sea refueling capability (3 such ships) for 30 years now. They purchased destroyers from the Russians. They have a very limited over-the-horizon ordinance capability (very limited).

    What they have developed over the last 20 years is a navy with blue water capability allowing it to extend a defensive zone outside of the mainland *and* to mount a credible threat to Taiwan.

    An example of China’s “blue water capability” are the three ships currently deployed off the coast of Somalia: two guided missile destroyers and an at-sea refueling/supply ship. You’ll see neo-con reaction to that deployment as a sign of the evil intentions of the Chinese bogeyman as well. Those assholes are predictable.

  60. 60.

    Redshirt

    November 17, 2009 at 10:59 am

    It seems to me there is likely to be a strong balance between Japan and China. Japan could go nuclear at anytime they choose, and with that, any military threat from China goes away, if it even ever existed in the first place (given that Japan is under the US nuke umbrella). Thus, the “battles” will be fought in economic terms, in battling for markets and natural resources. This does not seem to be a bad battle on the face of it.

    I have zero concerns about China. They’re too interested in making money, and as such, all of our interests are best served in a way that allows them to do so.

    I hope, though, China starts a new Space Race. Can’t have the Moon turning Red, after all.

  61. 61.

    slippy

    November 17, 2009 at 11:00 am

    Bobo explained that the reason Americans feel shitty right now isn’t that they don’t have jobs and health insurance, it’s that we’re jealous of China; the solution to this, interestingly enough, is to move to a Chinese-style government-directed economy.

    That would be the nanny state aspects of Communism combined with the business-oriented aspects of capitalism.

    I guess Repukes don’t really adhere to any principles anymore.

  62. 62.

    Comrade E.B. Misfit

    November 17, 2009 at 11:02 am

    The Chinese will need a lot more ships than the neocons think in order to have a credible carrier task force which is capable of projecting power far away from the Chinese mainland.

  63. 63.

    Death Panel Truck

    November 17, 2009 at 11:02 am

    I thought the wingnuts believed Obama was Hitler. I learned that by watching news coverage of the town hall meetings in August. Pictures of him with Hitler’s mustache, wearing a swastika arm band, throwing a Nazi salute. If they’d been creative at all, they’d have placed him at a Nuremberg rally, with the Hindenburg and the Graf Zeppelin wafting over his head as he mesmerized the crowd with his speechifying.

    I thought that issue was settled as far as the average wingnut was concerned. This attempt by the party’s “intellectuals” to find a new Hitler is going to confuse the base. Of course, if Bobo/Ferguson/Beck et. al. had any brains, they’d realize a comparison of Obama to Hitler is silly.

    Everybody knows Obama is Stalin, amirite? Liberals are commies, not Nazis! (Jonah Goldberg notwithstanding)

  64. 64.

    The Moar You Know

    November 17, 2009 at 11:03 am

    Bobo explained that the reason Americans feel shitty right now isn’t that they don’t have jobs and health insurance, it’s that we’re jealous of China

    Having been to China, and not to the nice touristy parts of it, I can say without equivocation that no American has a life so shitty as to feel jealous of the average Chinese citizen, and I include those Americans who woke up today with their starving children in their broken down vans.

  65. 65.

    LD50

    November 17, 2009 at 11:07 am

    @Mirthless Chopper – Frmrly TheFountainHead: Well, there’s that, plus the awkward fact that China now makes all our stuff…

  66. 66.

    RememberNovember

    November 17, 2009 at 11:10 am

    @Comrade Tudor:

    Somewhere, in the great Hereafter, CS Lewis is saying “WTF? She quoted me? What a c**t!

    I didn’t write the “Liar, the Bitch and her wardrobe, fwiw”

  67. 67.

    asiangrrlMN

    November 17, 2009 at 11:10 am

    @jeffreyw: I saw! Did you see I commented? They look so yummy. I want some now. Alas, I do not cook.

    @Col. Klink: So speaketh Col. Klink.

  68. 68.

    comrade scott's agenda of rage

    November 17, 2009 at 11:12 am

    Whoa! I made the update! I guess this means the neocons need to talk more about the threat posed by the massive Chinese Navy. Finally, something I actually know!

  69. 69.

    asiangrrlMN

    November 17, 2009 at 11:12 am

    @OriGuy: Oooh, good suggestion. I will see if I can dig a pair up.

  70. 70.

    Brick Oven Bill

    November 17, 2009 at 11:14 am

    Aircraft carriers are stupid and a function of the powerful pilot lobby. Power can be projected much more economically by drones and missiles. Airspace will shortly be controlled also by drones, which are not limited to 10gs by the human body.

    The next Hilter is Mediocrity, which will destroy the dollar and the social safety net. Obama can be seen as the Lord of Mediocrity, and has declared the War on Excellence.

    This concept is straight from Federalist 10 (Madison), where we are taught that government’s first responsibility is to protect the diversity of men’s abilities. Obama cannot acknowledge diversity of men’s abilities (Creationist) for deeply personal reasons having to do with a teleprompter.

    By his own admission, he was unable to do anything for his community in Chicago. This is because mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, and a lot of those people are worse than mediocre. There are 12-15 shooting/stabbing victims arriving at a single local hospital each and every night, following the completion of Obama’s work. The media ignores this, of course.

    So the last thing to do to cope with his self esteem issues is to declare a War on Excellence. Somewhere in this mix we will stiff China out of their debt using the reasoning that, since Obama was not Constitutionally seated, all of the debt accumulated on his watch is null and void.

    China will get angry, but there is nothing really that they can do about it except take Taiwan.

  71. 71.

    The Moar You Know

    November 17, 2009 at 11:21 am

    @Brick Oven Bill: Ever since you’ve started posting here, the stock market has gone up almost 50%. I can only ascribe this to a rise in the commodity prices for bricks and mortar.

    Your oven, though, is inefficient and poorly designed. Mass is not necessarily an insulator, and you are losing too much thermal energy to heating the bricks and mortar of your oven. I wonder at both your agenda and your motives for promoting such a wasteful oven design. Perhaps you are not American, but a Chinese fifth column agent.

    This stove is much more efficient, and was invented by a real American.

  72. 72.

    Comrade Tudor

    November 17, 2009 at 11:30 am

    @The Moar You Know: Republican OR Nazi? There’s a distinction?

  73. 73.

    Brick Oven Bill

    November 17, 2009 at 11:34 am

    Did you notice the smoke marks on the White House fireplace mantel during that first interview The Moar You Know? Obama forgot to open the chimney. In like manner, try cooking a pizza in a Franklin stove. Perhaps you can be a cook for Americorps. They might appreciate your skills.

    The stock market is not up, as gold IS up 50% over the same period. The stock market, and gold, are indexed in dollars, which are being reduced in value by the printing of money.

  74. 74.

    Winston Smith

    November 17, 2009 at 11:36 am

    On cue: RedState is after Obama for not being ready to fight the Chinese in some imminent conflict.

    What a startling coincidence!

  75. 75.

    The Moar You Know

    November 17, 2009 at 11:52 am

    @Brick Oven Bill: I have no interest in trying to cook pizza, Brick Oven Bill. It is a food of the lazy and slothful, requiring no utensils or manners to consume. Plus, it is laden with fats and carbs, which contributes to the obesity of Americans. Again, I question your motives.

    You will note that the president is not fat. Patriotic Americans are aware of their obligation to stay fit, trim, and exercised.

    As befits a man who both cares about America and has a highly regarded intellect, he avoids pizza.

  76. 76.

    Liberty60

    November 17, 2009 at 11:54 am

    @comrade scott’s agenda of rage:
    Your comment about defense systems being built for a purpose, not in a vacuum, brings to mind the following thought.
    We spend almost $1 Trillion per year on defense/ Homeland Security. We have nearly 1,000 (Yeah, ONE THOUSAND!) military bases around the world.
    And yet we are repeatedly told we are weakening, that we must, absolutely MUST spend more, invade more, in order to consolidate and control MORE land- today Afghanistan, tomorrow Pakistan, perhaps Yemen, Somalia, and so on.

    How many military bases do Russia and China have? Why is it that they can project so much power and inflience around the world, that on nearly every issue from sanctions in Iran to natural gas in Eastern Europe, Russia and China are able to project their views and interests to deftly using nothing more than diplomacy and politics?

    Without needing one thousand military bases, without needing to have a carrier group floating in every sea of the world?

    I think its like the old saying about when all you have is a hammer….all the neocons have is the hammer of the military, so everything in the world looks like a nail.

  77. 77.

    Alex S.

    November 17, 2009 at 11:58 am

    The USA-China relationship is strange, it’s something that has never been before. Nixon made peace with China for strategic reasons and since then, America has embraced China’s ascendancy even though China is the single biggest threat to American hegemony. Maybe it’s because big business has its eyes on the chinese market but I think that China is the real winner of this deal. The financial crisis accelerated that process and I think we’re very close to the moment that the tables are turning. The focus of the financial sector on growth, not on actual size, means that chinese investments will be more interesting for a long time. China has got more people, more ressources, a clever and quicker leadership (the advantages of a one-party rule) and a better economic setup. Baring some kind of catastrophe or revolution, China will be the leading economy in 20 years. However, I am not very concerned about it. China has never been a real expansive power outside of what they consider their sphere of interest.

  78. 78.

    soonergrunt

    November 17, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    @comrade scott’s agenda of rage: When did you move to Moore, OK?

  79. 79.

    Walker

    November 17, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    And yet we are repeatedly told we are weakening, that we must, absolutely MUST spend more, invade more, in order to consolidate and control MORE land- today Afghanistan, tomorrow Pakistan, perhaps Yemen, Somalia, and so on.

    This is what always happens to empires. They collapse under their own weight.

  80. 80.

    Zach

    November 17, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard Larry Kudlow indict the Obama administration’s phantom attacks on economic liberty followed up by praise of the efficiency of the Chinese economy.

    I guess Communism works for conservatives so long as its coupled with a total lack of regulation?

  81. 81.

    AngusTheGodOfMeat

    November 17, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    I don’t agree that Bobo’s piece is that awful. As one who used to watch him regularly on the News Hour, I learned that he has this slightly tongue in cheek way of saying things that can be slightly annoying at times, but can also be slightly amusing at times, the way Regis Philbin can be slightly amusing at times. It’s harmless and more importantly, hardly relevant to the affairs of state he might be talking about, and therefore, not worth mentioning in our constant attempts to demonize him.

    But anyway, I think he makes a valid point, even if he doesn’t make it clearly. That point being that American enthusiasm for the future is at a low ebb right now, while apparently our Chinese competitors aren’t having that kind of sad. And that China has this built-in government support for business that we seem to lack. Or something, something like that. As I said, the point isn’t that clearly made.

    But anyway two, he misses the point that we do have leaders who try to hook us up to jollies about the future, when we consider that a coherent approach to the future will always include business opportunities. Like solar power, or electric cars, or efficient healthcare information systems that leverage patient data and diagnostic protocols, cut down on administrative costs and maximize real care, those sorts of things. We have leaders who point to those opportunities, and then we have a country whose first response is, “Will this new idea scare the right?” And if the answer is anything other than “No, absolutely not,” then we get all draggy about doing anything.

    What Brooks leaves out is that he represents the right that we have to be careful of scaring all the time. If he’d address that, I might even subscribe to the fucking New York Times just to read him.

  82. 82.

    MNPundit

    November 17, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    The aircraft carrier thing is bunk, but I am willing to go all in for Taiwan.

  83. 83.

    Cat

    November 17, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    Weirdly, China’s economic attack on the West was the theme recently for economist pundits.


    Ambrose Evans Pritchard

    Krugman

    This kind of tension usually leads to war, we’ll see if the 20th century has taught us anything about conflict resolution.

  84. 84.

    Jay C

    November 17, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    Heh – as with most blogospheric commentary on the subject, every time I see references to the “burgeoning Chinese military threat” in a post, I assume that the author knows pretty much nothing about the subject. And this one was not exception.

    However, I did get one useful takeaway from the PBS link:

    MINXIN PEI: No. I — I think the Chinese leadership is very domestically focused.
    —
    And one of the lessons they have learned from the Soviet collapse is imperial overreach. And they believe that the Soviet Union collapsed because it spent too much on the military, and yet supported rogue regimes around the world, to its own cost, and, then finally, that the Soviet Union had too many military commitments around.
    —
    So, I do not believe, in the foreseeable future, China would like to its expand its military footprint around the world.

    Gee: I wonder who else might take heed of those lessons…..

  85. 85.

    Chad N Freude

    November 17, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    Speaking of Chinese war-making capability:

    U.S. government officials say that China is increasing its intelligence-gathering cyberspace capabilities by hacking into U.S. government computers. If war were to break out between the two super powers, China hopes to be able to hit the U.S. in its weak spots. In terms of traditional warfare, the U.S. outspends and outperforms China, so China has been aggressively concentrating on penetrating communications and spy satellites as well as computer networks in the U.S. (The Washington Post, pg. A11, Nov. 11, 2009)

  86. 86.

    comrade scott's agenda of rage

    November 17, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    @Liberty60:

    What you describe is exactly the result of Ike’s eerily prescient warning about the military industrial complex. The F-22 debacle was a poster child for the issue.

  87. 87.

    comrade scott's agenda of rage

    November 17, 2009 at 1:25 pm

    @soonergrunt:

    Moore OK is New York Fucking City compared to my little town of 60 people smack dum dab in the middle of Misery.

    That being said, most any town with 5,000 people or less out on the godforsakenplains of Kansas/Colorado/Nebraska et al are East Bumfucks.

  88. 88.

    Kirk Spencer

    November 17, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    China’s naval requirements roll around three issues: keeping others out; securing an assault on Taiwan if/when it’s necessary; and securing an oil route. I want to point in particular to the latter.

    China put a LOT of money into the development of Gwandar, Pakistan. Gwandar has an outlet from what currently exists of the Iran-China oil pipeline that comes from the Yadavaren fields (which China has leased rights to develop).

    At this time, and for the next five to ten years (until the pipeline is completed) this port is going to have two significant roles for China, which explains both their investment and the leasing they’re paying for portions of the port. First, it’s the load port for shipping. Because of the short pipeline there’s no need to traverse the straits of hormuz and the operating area of most of the Somali pirate risk. It cuts one source of potential risk as well as several days of transport from the journey.

    The second use is security. Not national security (not directly, anyway) but a point that allows extended security patrols of the oil route. Light sea control / anti-piracy ships don’t have to sail part-way and return but rather can follow the entire route.

    Tertiary use is to provide a forward base for warships should it be necessary for military protection of their assets – in other words, if they protect their Iranian oilfields from other nations’ actions. More bluntly, if the US decides to attack Iran, China can have a place from which to have some say. The port can handle China’s diesel submarines – which are one of the more potent threats they have against our carrier superiority. Support of missile boats of various classes is also a given.

    None of these requires an aircraft carrier. Once the pipeline goes through the transport role reduces but the security requirement – particularly the tertiary requirement – remains. And it still won’t require China to build aircraft carriers.

  89. 89.

    ricky

    November 17, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    “It may seem like an ephemeral thing, but this eschatological faith in the future has motivated generations of Americans.” David Brooks

    “I would be remiss if I didn’t point out how awful the first two paragraphs of Bobo’s piece are… because of the way the opening resembles an unholy marriage of Neil Young’s “Helpless” and the last chapter of The Great Gatsby.” DougJ

    Don’t despair, Doug. According to Brooks, seeing large flocks of geese in the 1500’s was the genesis of this unholy marriage which is fated to end in divorce.

  90. 90.

    Primigenius

    November 17, 2009 at 6:25 pm

    I too am concerned about Chinese aircraft carriers because I always want to keep one eye on a nation which hasn’t projected its national power trans-oceanically (let me make that a word if it isn’t already) since… well, since Kublai attempted an invasion of Japan 700 tears ago. One can’t be too cautious even if we are outspending our putative future Hitler ten to one. And I hope at ten to one tomorrow Ferguson’s having his head examined.

  91. 91.

    International Playboy

    November 17, 2009 at 6:25 pm

    @comrade scott’s agenda of rage: But with so much of Taiwan’s defenses structered to repel attacks from the mainland, don’t you think it presents a problem if the PLAN/PLANAF could project their forces toward Taiwan’s east coast.

    I don’t see a problem with your argument, but I do think China having a modern aircraft carrier battle group seriously complicates matters.

  92. 92.

    Wile E. Quixote

    November 18, 2009 at 3:00 am

    These fuckers are so goddamned pathetic. I don’t know if Bobo and Ferguson suffer from having extremely small genitalia or if there’s some other reason that they, and a whole bunch of other fuckheads on the right are so gung-ho for China to become the new Soviet Union. What I love is listening to these dildos rant about North Korea. I was on a forum last week, I don’t remember which one, where some right wing dildo was asserting that if a war started with China that North Korea would roll over South Korea in three days. The complete and utter ignorance of the poster made me wish that I had some magic internet wand that would allow me to track them down, find out where they live and then beat them bloody as a means of setting an example for the rest of the fucktards out there.

    North Korea is a huge pain in the ass for China. They’re like China’s Mexico, a poor, shitty, unstable country located on the border of a larger, more prosperous country. Aside from the ridiculous assertion that the NK army would roll over the South, which has about 40 times the GDP of North Korea, better weapons, a better military and military and can feed it’s troops there’s also the fact that South Korea is one of China’s largest trading partners. Yeah, I’m sure that the Chinese are just thrilled by the prospect of Kim Jong Tard screwing that up by starting a war which would do nothing except drive South Korea away from China and further into the arms of the US.

    It’s as if these fuckheads are still pathetic little adolescents playing Risk (none of them are smart enough for Diplomacy) and really believe that if you put enough armies into Yakutsk and Irkutsk that you can conquer the world. I would love to have Obama or Biden or Clinton or someone just call bullshit on these idiots and explain to them that The Bear and The Dragon was just a shitty Tom Clancy novel and not anything resembling the foreign policy blueprint of the Chinese government.

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