It’s strange and troubling that we now have a president who thinks rationally:
President George W. Bush once boasted, “I’m not a textbook player, I’m a gut player.” The new tenant of the Oval Office takes a strikingly different approach. President Obama is almost defiantly deliberative, methodical and measured, even when critics accuse him of dithering. When describing his executive style, he goes into Spock mode, saying, “You’ve got to make decisions based on information and not emotions.”
I may brush up on my Mandarin over the holidays.
Comrade Jake
I loved Spock. Spock didn’t take shit from anyone.
res ipsa loquitur
“You’ve got to make decisions based on information and not emotions.”
That our media finds this remarkable enough to write an article about just blows my mind.
The Republic of Stupidity
There… fixed it for ya… you can t’ank me later…
Truthfully… I think we ALL better start brushing up on our Mandarin…
General Winfield Stuck
If Broder comes across this BJ post, he is going to hate you Dougj, for not thinking up this title himself. Without the snark of course.
MikeJ
Love that phrase in the second graf. A “spectacle of deliberation.”
Dream On
Yeah, yeah. “Gut player” versus “methodical” – but does it matter when you get the same result from two different presidents? Either way the banks will be well-gorged and very happy.
JK
OT
Doug,
Do you think it was a dickish move of Obama to throw Greg Craig overboard?
The Republic of Stupidity
Indeed… indeed… and how would one describe his predecessor… a fiesta of incompetency?
A cavalcade of willful ignorance?
valdivia
wait, deliberation is bad? the article makes this, the decision making based on information, data, a bad thing? kill. me. now.
But before–Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
ellaesther
This is why the POTUS appears in my literal, written down, and posted list of things for which I am grateful this year.
I am also disappointed, but mostly, I remain grateful.
ellaesther
@The Republic of Stupidity: Heh!
A fiesta of foolishness, perhaps, and a cavalcade of catastrophe!
valdivia
@The Republic of Stupidity:
fix’d.
General Winfield Stuck
@ellaesther:
A cascade of calamity
demkat620
So would they prefer that he just wing it? Nevermind, of course they would.
God they are idiots.
The Moar You Know
It is vital, when making decisions that affect the lives of millions of people, to not think about the consequences of them at all and just do whatever the hell you feel like.
In a way, I wish McCain had won. There’s a lot of folks on the left and the right who, by virtue of their incessant whining, shortsightedness, lack of patience and rank stupidity deserve to live in the hellhole he would have turned this country into by now.
Talkin’ to you, “Dream On”. And many, many others.
Just Some Fuckhead
President Obama is just using lots of meetings to mask the fact he has no idea what to do next.
Just Some Fuckhead
He’s not dithering, he’s druthering.
The Republic of Stupidity
A carnival of insipid banality?
joe from Lowell
I picture him saying this while standing among smoking wreckage.
Or perhaps up to his knees in flood water.
valdivia
@The Moar You Know:
what you said.
@The Republic of Stupidity:
making me laugh about this, quite an accomplishment, because the media makes me want to cry.
PeakVT
“I’m not a textbook player, I’m a gut player.”
Facts have a liberal bias, anyway. Why respond to them?
joe from Lowell
Stand on his desk and shout “Wolverines!?”
Lie about a non-existent national security threat in another country?
The Republic of Stupidity
Hmmm… usually makes me want to throw up and then throw things…
Just Some Fuckhead
Watching Rachel Getting Married.
Just killer acting.
valdivia
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I saw that a couple of years ago with my Mom and we both loved it. Hard, like being punched in the gut. The acting was really strong.
Just Some Fuckhead
@valdivia: Yes, that.
freelancer
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Hey, you got your snark in my truth! No! You got your truth in my snark!
Only an abject moron would confidently know exactly what to do in this situation…
“They hate us for our freedom.”
“The iraqi people want democracy and freedom.”
“I thought they were all Muslims!”
“We’re about to embark on a crusade against these evildoers.”
chrome agnomen
bush made his decisions based of information too. it’s just that that higher father was a shitty advisor.
Litlebritdifrnt
Watching Morning Joe this morning (yes I know, I know, just forget about it) Joe actually said “I take heart in the fact that our president is actually taking time to think about things and is actually meeting with all his advisors and taking their advice” OMFG the POTUS is actually meeting with advisors and listening to them and taking their advice.
The Moar You Know
@JK: He wasn’t exactly “thrown overboard” – but it is obvious that the administration had a change of heart on how they were going to handle the very sticky question of the Guananamo detainees, and Craig wasn’t on board with the plan.
If my boss decides on a course of action, and I don’t back it up, my choices are rather stark: quit or be fired.
Doesn’t work any different in government. Craig did what he felt he had to do.
Best of luck in his future endeavors, and all that.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Were this country just a little less civilized, that phrase alone would earn the writer the death of a thousand acid enemas.
Oh God, it’s that dumb fuck Joel Achenbach. Make that 10,000 acid enemas.
What I want to know is what prompted DougJ to push past a headline that must have been written by a lobotomized monkey:
In his slow decision-making, Obama goes with head, not gut
Christ, the alternate is equally craptastic:
Analysis: Obama makes decisions slowly, and with head, not gut
robertdsc
Well, the only real option is to leave, but somehow I doubt he’s going to tell us that’s going to happen. Instead, we get more war, aka failure we can believe in.
And before anyone says anything about what he said during the campaign, the joke “elections” that Karzai “won” are the perfect reason to exit the stage ASAP. But no.
robertdsc
Not true. Larry Summers and Timmy Geithner both opposed the President’s ideas on financial compensation caps for Wall Street. Both are still -working- fucking up things today.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
Bush didn’t dither, he decidered.
General Winfield Stuck
@robertdsc:
Does it concern you that Afghan. will return to what it was before we went in, if we just pull up stakes and leave completely?
Genine
Rosetta Stone Mandarin, here I come! I’ll get Cantonese next.
General Winfield Stuck
@robertdsc:
I think opposing something the president wants and convincing him to see it your way, is different than him not seeing it your way and you deciding not to follow orders, or live with the decision of your boss. Which what it sounds like to me what happened.
robertdsc
@General Winfield Stuck:
There is not a single reason for us to stay there. None. Bush lost that war. More bombs and more guns won’t help the Afghan people one bit.
As for the “safe havens” theory, 9/11 was run out of Hamburg, Germany. Not Afghanistan. In addition, the Taliban has a presence in 80% of the country. They could theoretically provide AQ with a safe haven with their existing territory but that isn’t happening.
Just Some Fuckhead
@General Winfield Stuck:
Not at all. In fact, we should leave them to their own sordid fate like they want us too. Their country will devolve into religious factionalism and drug dealing (more so) and eventually be a safe haven again for all kinds of vermin, most especially terrorists.
What we do differently next time is take seriously the fucking PDB entitled “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US”.
That was easy.
Spiny Norman
43: a carnival of imbecility. And incivility.
robertdsc
Geithner took it one step further, sabotaging Chris Dodd’s compensation caps in the stimulus package. He had to publicly apologize for that. He’s still SecTreas today.
freelancer
@robertdsc:
I agree, but to the low-info voter, the last seven years don’t matter, Iraq won’t matter, if he pulls troops out before something groundbreaking like capturing or killing OBL (even though fuckhead’s in Pakistan), he’s waving a white flag. It won’t hold up to 3 years of the right wing calling him “PUSSY” at 175 dB. To the military, they might be thankful they’re brought home, but every stupid goddamned American’ll be like, “Fucker, surrendered to the trrsts, and that’s just what they want.”
I have faith in Obama, just not in the population.
freelancer
Okay, Fuck Mod Hell,
I’m gonna go play Assassin’s Creed II.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
Look at what 8 years of being a gut fucking player got us.
Of course the Villager Asshats will forget all of that and dump this in Obama’s lap.
I take great relish in knowing they’re losing money hand over fist and don’t have a fucking clue what to do about it.
A pox on all of em.
Regnad Kcin
@Genine:
Sadly, it ain’t that simple. (He said, trying to grasp intonation-based language.)
General Winfield Stuck
@robertdsc:
You are just wrong. Not only was 9-11 planned and commanded from Afghan., it was done so without pressure from anyone, and the operatives trained on Afhan. soil in numerous training camps littering the country.
The overseas planning was secondary to AQ headquarters in central Asia./ And yes, to a degree, the Taliban controls large parts of the country, though not 80 percent. the difference being they are under constant pressure from our military, and not safe for AQ to set up shop in leisure ,, the way it used to.
And to a degree it is the same over in pak jointly with the pak government, with pressure from us to keep AQ from settling in to train and plan more attacks in the west.
I do not support full nation building actions like we are doing fighting the Taliban in hopes of pacifying the country which is a hopeless task, especially for SE afghan. on traditional Pashtun soil. So I don’t support escalation as the mission stands now. But also don’t support just abandoning the region completely either. That would be foolish, and just knee jerk ideological posturing imo.
A smaller more focused force to contain OBL in the area is what I support, and I think that is where Obama will get there eventually.. And yes, presidential politics is also in play right now for 012, I think. It always is. I don”t like it but it is part of the decision.
Keith G
@The Moar You Know: @General Winfield Stuck:
Craig seems like a good guy. He is undoubtedly very wise in the ways of the West Wing. Sometimes ya just got to walk the plank, deservedly or not.
The needs of the many….
JK, what’s your point?
Just Some Fuckhead
President Obama just needs to speak straight to the American people and tell ’em he can’t unfuck Afghanistan but he can stop our kids from dying there and he can stop another terrorist attack by taking Presidential Daily Briefings about terrorist warnings more seriously than the last idiot to hold the job.
What sane person wouldn’t understand that?
Corner Stone
@The Moar You Know:
This.
Sometimes I’m a little chilled at the idea of a President McMaverick. Just think about it. He could’ve had his Treasury Department give money to the banks at 100 cents on the dollar. He could’ve instructed his DoD to send 34,000 more troops to Afghanistan, and authorized more Predator strikes in Pakistan. President McCain could’ve also allowed, or influenced, his Department of Justice in such a way that some individuals were locked up *before* they ever did anything. Hell, McCain probably could’ve even prosecuted less people for torture and war crimes. And the scary part is McMaverick may have even come out less forcefully for equality legislation across America!
But then there’s also Healthcare to think about. With a President McCain we might not even get a Public Option through the Congress! Probably because McCain would’ve had more lobbyists in the door during all the negotiations.
Citizen_X
I, for one, bow deeply to our new Mandarin overlords.
maus
It’s funny how as pissed off and disappointed Obama and the Dems get me, these people crawl out from the gutter to remind me how terrible he *could* be.
General Winfield Stuck
@Just Some Fuckhead:
This is actually a cogent counter argument. Though I still don’t like the idea of having a country training and sending out folks to blow shit and people up without worry of being thwarted where they live. Anyways, whoever is right, we will not be leaving Afghan completely, under Obama, Kucinich or whoever is presnit. Whoever is in that Oval Office would not risk politically the chance they might slip thru our defenses for another or worse 9-11, and get accused of leaving AQ in Afghan, or even pak. to their own devices. Not going to happen anytime remotely soon.
Corner Stone
@General Winfield Stuck:
Ok, let’s imagine Afghanistan doesn’t exist for AQ. Ever heard of Africa?
It’s a Fool’s Errand to imagine we can patrol & police the globe.
Occupy/pacify/rectify/retrainify/modernify/etceterafy.
Corner Stone
@Citizen_X: You fucking pussy.
JK
@Keith G:
My point is that Greg Craig is a talented person who endorsed Obama early on and Obama treated him like dirt. He let him twist in the wind with all those stories swirling around that he was on the verge of resigning. If Craig left of his own choosing that’s one thing, but from the various accounts I read, Craig was pushed out.
Corner Stone
I have a comment to Citizen_X waiting for moderation.
It’s snark Senor Citizen_X. Just to be clear.
robertdsc
@General Winfield Stuck:
So according to you, we’d be stuck there for eternity just to prevent some kind of attack from ever happening. And if AQ decides to move elsewhere like to Africa? Are we going to invade there, too?
I also forgot to mention that multiple military sources have explicitly stated there are less than 100 AQ fighters in the country. Since you’re saying we should deny AQ their bases in Afghanistan, why couldn’t we do the job with what we have? Why more troops? How long does this have to go on?
Denial of space is not a reason to spend 60+ billion dollars a year on a war we can’t win for a government that is illegitimate and hated by the people. It’s way past time to get out.
I won’t even begin to mention the optics of blowing 60 billion a year on war when the homeland is dying by the day. End it now.
I would be remiss in offering one positive tidbit, though. With the pomp and circumstance of honoring India last night, I would imagine getting them into a stronger partnership with us could provide tangible benefits in the following situation: getting the Indians to calm down about Kashmir, thereby taking the heat off Pakistan and freeing up internal Pakistani forces to attack AQ in the tribal regions. A reverse domino effect, if you will.
SiubhanDuinne
OT. Somebody on CNN is going berserk over a reported security breach by a couple who “crashed” the state dinner at the White House last night. They went through all the security perimeters, were announced, and were evidently on some lists but not on others. Reporter is saying they are wannabe reality TV stars ad essentially “outed” themselves on their own Facebook page today. The AC360 guy (guest host) and reporters are so breathless and hysterical that it’s hard to sort out exactly what happened or didn’t happen or should have happened, but if it was a genuine security breach it’s obviously more than troubling.
Corner Stone
@maus: He *could* be pretty damn bad. Bush-like, even. Or worse, McCain-esque. That’s pretty G-D bad yo.
Corner Stone
@robertdsc: Are you me but just less pretty? Cause this was spot-fucking-on dawg.
General Winfield Stuck
@Corner Stone:
No we can’t, Not with our military in any numbers. Though there are other less intrusive ways to protect ourselves rather than sitting back and hoping for the best. But I just say that afpak is the home base of AQ which is what Al Quaida translates to in Arabic. And I am talking about a very low profile of presence to both hunt AQ leaders and lend material support to a recreated Northern Alliance or whatever it becomes when we disengage the broader war against the Taliban. Let the Afghans fight that battle, it is their country. Prolly no more than 10 or 15 troops, but that is an uneducated guess on my part.
bago
Cranially Cromulent?
Assasin’s Creed is looking better and better by the moment.
JK
@The Moar You Know:
I’m very disappointed with Obama for his positions on civil liberties and national security, but even on his worst day he’s a billion times better than raging maniac John McCain who deserves to burn in Hell for eternity for inflicting Sarah Bible Spice Palin on America.
Anya
@The Moar You Know: I agree with you completely. I was just this morning saying to my friend the same thing, after reading another one of those the sky is falling diaries at the GOS. It is demoralizing that we, at the left, help create these idiotic and inaccurate memes about how Obama is weak, indecisive and the most vexing of all, he is just like Bush. Yes, Bush would have signed S-CHIP legislation and the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. Just imagine how would have the economy turned out with another trillion tax cut, not to mention who else would we cluster bomb. I am so sick of these idiotic comparisons that I am vowing not to read anything in these sites anymore.
Now that I got that out of my chest, what did you guys think about the security breach in the White House? Apparently, two reality t.v. clowns managed to slip into the WH uninvited.
DougJ
Do you think it was a dickish move of Obama to throw Greg Craig overboard?
I don’t know. I don’t know the details
ellaesther
@General Winfield Stuck: A morass of mishap.
General Winfield Stuck
@robertdsc:
If you are going to debate me, I will ask that you not use strawmen and actually read and comprehend what I say. I think that’s fair. To wit, I not only oppose the current buildup of 34 thou new troops, I think we can cut back what we have, set up a base or two that is easily defendable and make sure AQ doesn’t return in numbers and let Afghans fight their own fights with one another for the country. And yes , I know about the 100 AQ number, being the person who brought it here several threads ago.
Blue Raven
And on his good days, he’s been pretty damn good even without comparing him to the nightmares that preceded and may have wound up being there instead of him.
General Winfield Stuck
@General Winfield Stuck:
Well a few more than that. say 10 to 15 thousand. Edit function return is awaited.
Corner Stone
@Anya: Grow the fuck up. He’s not weak, he’s doing exactly what he’s been paid to do.
S-CHIP and Lilly would’ve had any veto overridden.
bago
@SiubhanDuinne: so the biggest attack vector on any system is the human element. A great rack and some sharp clothes will get you almost anywhere. Just ask Palin.
SiubhanDuinne
@Anya. Well, the CNN hysteria that I posted about above was the first I had heard of it but now it’s being widely reported. Sounds like a stupid Secret Service procedural breakdown at this point. I immagine people will be fired, pundits will punditize, new more stringent procedures will be put in place, and everyone will move along.
The Republic of Stupidity
@ellaesther: A morass of mishap.
A miasma of misanthropy?
A thunderous deluge of disaster?
A tsunami of simpletons?
bago
@bago: Enumeration FTW! Until that comment comes out of moderation. *sigh*
The Republic of Stupidity
Ooooooo… cromulent?
Now… THAT’S a word that embiggens the spirit…
SiubhanDuinne
@Bago. Heh. My mind doesn’t automatically think in terms of “great rack” but the be-racked one was recognized by some of the red carpet gawkers as a Real Housewife or {sperate Housewife, so I agree with you on the larger question of glitter and celebrity.
eemom
@DougJ:
oh good heavens. You want DETAILS before you trash Obama?
Next thing we know you’ll want FACTS. Complexity, practicality, feasibility, and other such bothersome shit.
You’ll never be a shining light of the “progressive” blogosphere at this rate, dude.
JK
Wikileaks Says It Has Half-a-Million 9/11 Pager Messages
h/t http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/wikileaks-pages
Jim
The accepted terminology is “thrown under the bus”.
Please make a note of it.
tomvox1
Define: “Slowly.”
ellaesther
@The Republic of Stupidity: A miasma of misanthropy – I believe we have a winner!
Because that’s what allllllll the dickitude came from: A deep seated misanthropy that characterizes much of what passes for policy among neo-cons.
A miasma of misanthropy!
JK
@bago:
Great title for an unauthorized biography of Sarah Queen of the Tundra.
Notorious P.A.T.
That’s ONE way of putting it. Locking someone up forever without a trial because they might, some day, be a danger. . . what change!
eemom
@The Republic of Stupidity:
and please don’t forget A Confederacy of Dunces, a great novel by a tragic author.
JK
@Jim:
I’ve never been big on buses, I prefer trains, planes, and boats.
Notorious P.A.T.
Corner Stone:
Well said.
SiubhanDuinne
One more thought on the WH security breach: Is it possible that this was actually a set-up by the Secret Service in order to identify potential weaknesses in the security chain? Wouldn’t be . . . unprecedented.
Notorious P.A.T.
But do we really need to occupy the whole freaking country to prevent that??? Do we need 100,000 soldiers there at 100 billion dollars a year while our country goes bankrupt, while our bridges rot and crumble, while people die because they couldn’t afford a doctor visit to see if that pain in their chest was something to worry about?
(This is a general rant, not directed at at anyone in particular)
How many terror attacks has al Qaeda staged since we invaded Afghanistan? Yet our being there was supposed to stop them from being able to stage terror attacks. When does THAT start to work? And don’t play that horseshit card of “you want to abandon the people of Afghanistan?” It’s not like we have only 2 choices.
LD50
I dunno, the first 9-11 got Bush re-elected.
But I imagine that trick only works for Republicans.
General Winfield Stuck
At least no one can claim we are a borg of group think on this thread. I say bravo to that.
Mike in NC
That reminds me, I’m looking forward to seeing “The Road” next week. Sorta what the world would be like now if the old prick had been elected last year.
General Winfield Stuck
@Notorious P.A.T.:
@General Winfield Stuck:
I always feel dumb as dirt when popping off before reading the whole thread.
Corner Stone
@General Winfield Stuck: I thought you meant 10 to 15 Tillman’s. That would’ve done it, according to McChrystal.
Notorious P.A.T.
Notorious P.A.T.
@General Winfield Stuck:
I said it wasn’t directed at anyone in particular. You’re cool.
General Winfield Stuck
@Corner Stone:
He should have been and still should be court martialed for what he did to the Tillman family. And certainly not running things in Afgha.
We agree about something, fucking locusts must be on their way.
Corner Stone
@General Winfield Stuck: FUCK YOU! Fuck you up your stupid ass!
How dare you?! Do you want to doom us all you simple bitch?
Corner Stone
@Notorious P.A.T.: And I was just starting to really cotton to you, too.
Notorious P.A.T.
That’s just not enough. “better than Bush”, “better than McCain”. We deserve better. We need better if our country is to survive this century.
Just Some Fuckhead
Got room for one more in this circle jerk?
Something Fabulous
@The Republic of Stupidity: A tsunami of Tsimpletons!
Corner Stone
@Corner Stone: With apologies to all. But I fucking love the Katt Williams Pimpin’ stand up.
Montysano
@General Winfield Stuck:
IIRC, bin Laden’s three pre-9/11 beefs were: 1) Americans on holy soil in Saudi Arabia. The Saudis booted us out, so problem solved. 2) The US’s brutal sanctions against Iraq. We replaced sanctions with mass murder, do we got some work to do on that one. 3) The Palestinians.
My point being: not only should we leave Afghanistan and Iraq, but we should maybe consider no longer doing those things which caused people to want to kill us. End our occupation, negotiate a truly fair deal for the Palestinians, and 95% of the terrorism problem is gone.
Notorious P.A.T.
Yes! ! !
Annie
Obama should be deliberative because he has inherited a mess. He’s confronted with a corrupt Afghan government that has yet to reign in tribal chiefs, who will use drugs and whatever to make lots of cash.
Many in the country hate both AQ and the Taliban, but have given up looking to the central government to get rid of the problem.
Do we give development aid or military aid??? Do we — the US — replace the central government to what end?
We take shit when civilians are killed and sometimes make the problem worse. The Taliban thrive on that. If AQ is small, and we hit villages and civilians die, AQ wins.
I agree that a smaller, smarter military presence probably would work better. At the same time, putting pressure on the government to assume some responsibility for the mess is also a tactical approach.
Pakistan is part of the problem. What is our leverage there? Another strategic and tactical question….
Wasting billions of US dollars is exactly that a waste. Iraq is disaster, yet no where do we see that in the press.
Obama is really between a rock and a hard place.
MikeJ
Do we give them Alabama or Mississippi?
Corner Stone
@Just Some Fuckhead: G-D but this site bobs up and down more than JSF on tha corner every Tuesday!
Corner Stone
@Montysano: I’m curious – why aren’t we all hailing Marx & Lenin?
Rod Majors
Avalanche of Asshattery.
Montysano
@Annie:
We wasted billions in Vietnam. In Iraq and Afghanistan, it’s different: there are nearly as many contractors as there are soldiers. It’s corporate welfare. I posted upthread about the moral imperatives, but that was really silly; this is business. This is why we won’t leave. Seriously: name one tangible positive thing we’ve accomplished in either country. It’s a clusterfuck of historic proportions.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Annie:
No, he’s really not. He’s only in a hard place because he wants to pacify the unpacifyable hard right. It’s pretty easy to say we’re out of money and we’re pulling out and mayhem will likely result in Afghanistan and Iraq and said mayhem should stand as a stark warning on electing fake cowboy presidents.
And he can finish by saying that if it costs him reelection, fine, the job sucks anyway and he’s going back to Kenya.
Montysano
@Corner Stone:
I dunno; I guess because everywhere else on the Web, I’m just montysano.
Maybe I should become Nino The Mindboggler.
Comrade Darkness
@The Moar You Know: No doubt. I feel, at this moment, more that I have in a long time like moving elsewhere and leaving this place to the degenerates who so dearly want to go down with the ship, all while blaming everyone else but their guys for the sinking.
I wish Obama would say, yeah we are going to try the Gitmo people, like in court and shit. Would you prefer I demonstrate the powers left to me by my predecessor and put the next 10 treasonous right wing pundits there. You know, as a perfectly logical extension of the actions of the previous administration?
JK
@Notorious P.A.T.:
Yes, we deserve better but we’re not going to get in your lifetime, my lifetime, or the lifetime of anyone reading this blog. This country is fucked up beyond repair thanks to Bush and Cheney. Thanks to the successful disinformation efforts of Fox News, Rush Limbaugh and the complicity of the MSM, the Democrats will likely get their asses kicked in the midterm elections and then Chuck Todd, George Stephanopoulous, Mark Halperin, Chris Matthews, Wolf Blitzer, and Marc Ambinder will pronounce Obama politically dead.
soonergrunt
@General Winfield Stuck:
That doesn’t even get you a full night’s sleep on mission.
Say you want to have persistent SF capability within striking distance of probable AQ locations in Afghanistan (leaving out Pakistan for the moment).
An A-team is 12 men. You’re not going to have just 12 men in country. They need logistical and maintenance support for their weapons and vehicles. They need a cook and other capabilities. They need somebody to stand watch on an alternating basis with them so they can keep training and sleep every so often.
So we deploy an SF battalion (b-team) with HQ, which provides logistics, maintenance, intelligence, planning, and command and control for 10 A-teams. That way you have two teams up cycle (hot standby), two teams training cycle (warm standby), two teams down cycle (cold standby), two teams on mission cycle (actually out doing things), and two teams on leave/schools/professional development, etc cycle. These cycles last one month at a time. The Bn HQ also supplies cooks, mechanics, doctors, clerks, intelligence specialists, logisticians, and all of the other support/strap-hanger weenies you need, and two B-teams (SF teams without officers) for filling holes, etc. This organization is about 350 guys.
They need security at their camp. They’re working, you can’t expect them to pull guard at the same time, for weeks on end. They need to sleep sooner or later. SF Battalions take up a lot of space for bunkage, gym, medical, mess-hall, HQ, supplies, motor pool, communications, etc. Good sized perimeter. So you need an Infantry company on duty. One platoon on guard, one platoon on QRF, and one platoon down. Only this only gets you a couple weeks before the grunts burn out, so you need two more companies. One company is on training cycle to maintain proficiency and the other is on down cycle. Three companies of infantry is too large an element for the SF HQ to command as well as their own, so you throw in an Infantry Bn HQ to provide all of the aforementioned capabilities to the infantry guys. Now you’re talking another 750 guys. As a bonus, you can use their heavy weapons company as QRF and local security patrols around the environs of the base, and the training cycle company to provide heavy support for the SF if they get in a slugfest somewhere. We have local security, maintenance, proficiency training, and we’re getting to sleep more or less regularly for a more or less adequate amount of time. Great, isn’t it? There’s just one problem. They don’t have any air support. No helicopters to move them about rapidly, and no Air Force fast movers for CAS. So we add an Aviation Battalion with two transport companies-one of 12 Black hawks and one of 10 Chinooks, and one attack company of 16 Apaches and 8 Kiowas. With all their mechanics, cooks, and other such, you’re talking about another 650 people.
I won’t even go into what the Air Force will bring to the fight, how they’ll do it and where from. Just suffice it to say that the Army side is now the size of a small brigade and still has piss-poor organic fire support, btw, so now we have to add a Fires Battalion. That’s what we call artillery today. That’s another 400 people. They don’t have to man every cannon all the time. Some of them can help out with perimeter guard, which is good because the Infantry guys are starting to get stretched and frayed a little with this big-assed perimeter. And its all in a perimeter about the size of a small regional airport, because you need a runway for the cargo planes to move equipment, supplies, and personnel in and out, to say nothing of the tarmac space for the Aviation Battalion. You’re also going to need couple of platoons of engineers and some other support units because the infrastructure to support all of this takes specialist maintenance. Grunts don’t know how to maintain the water purification equipment or fix the freezers at the mess hall. So figure another 400-500 personnel from a Main Support Battalion. As a bonus, we finally get clean laundry, now too.
If you want to have a persistent capability, you’re going to need 1,500 to 2,000 personnel, or you’re going to spend a lot more money, and accept a much higher risk to operational capability. You could cut here and there around the margins, but you’re not going to shrink that force by more than about 15%-20% without accepting increased cost and risk to the mission.
General Winfield Stuck
@Montysano:
Nothing would please me more than the solutions you pose and us leaving people alone to settle their own affairs. A lot of consequences to that though, that would not go down easy,.. With the numero uno being oil and our utter dependence on it for the life style we lead. Most of, if not all of this shit can be traced to that, save for some religious and eternal land disputes in the Palestine region.
I do disagree with AQ listing material gripes they have for what they do. I think they are hegemonists themselves at the core, a lot more than we at least for religion. Ours is mostly economic, but equally destructive.
maybe somebody will figure out the fusion puzzle, if there is one, and we can leave the Texas T for history and all the bloody shit it has wrought.
ellaesther
@Montysano: Well, there it is, my bailiwick!
I’m ALL up in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and I agree that mediating a just resolution to the conflict is a key element of any American effort to do away with global terrorism — but I would hesitate to say that 95% of it will go away.
A lot of folks out there now have a laundry list of good reasons to hate us. A sizeable handful of them are willing to express that hatred violently. While establishing a Palestinian state would certainly remove a weapon from their recruiting arsenal, and establish firmly in the minds of the world’s citizens that the US can in fact stand for and bring about justice — that doesn’t make the folks who already hate us violently go away or lay down arms.
But frankly, looking at the lay of the land at this point, I believe we’re dealing in hypotheticals, anyway….
Comrade Darkness
@LD50:
But I imagine that trick only works for
Republicanssleazebags willing to turn a national tragedy into a power-grab.Gefixt.
Toni
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/25/AR2009112504112.html?hpid=topnews
“China informed the United States that it would support a toughly worded, U.S.-backed statement criticizing the Islamic republic [of Iran] for flouting U.N. resolutions by constructing a secret uranium-enrichment plant. …While largely symbolic, it is the first such declaration since 2006 to be backed by both China and Russia. And the statement marks a departure for China, which has long refrained from criticizing Iran’s nuclear policies.”
So I guess the trip wasn’t a complete “dud”? Who cares I guess, the media got several news cycles out of that meme.
ellaesther
@ellaesther: @Montysano: Oops, I just looked again at your comment, and you actually said “End our occupation, negotiate a truly fair deal for the Palestinians, and 95% of the terrorism problem is gone.”
I’m a little tunnel vision on Israel/Palestine some days and I think I saw “occupation” and just thought “Palestine!” Sorry!
So, yes, a lot more of the problem would be solved. But still, I would wager, not most of it, certainly not right away.
soonergrunt
@Montysano:
I know for a fact that we did good things when I was there last. We dug wells for clean water, we helped build schools, we built bridges and roads, we provided clinical medical assistance, we electrified a couple of villages with micro-hydro plants, and we certainly killed some people that were doing bad shit to the locals.
It wasn’t perfect, it wasn’t easy, and God knows we didn’t always succeed. Visions of one particular failure will haunt me till I die. But I know that the two regions I worked in were just a little bit better off for my efforts, and it breaks my heart to think of what we could have done, given the adequate support of our country.
Corner Stone
@Montysano:
American exceptionalism runs strong through the peeps here (as it does through the MSM of course). Plus our MNC’s expect a certain jenay say kwah for their cashay.
That shit is over. The era of American Exceptionalism is OVER.
For FSM sake, let’s move past this Superpower/Colonialist thinking.
We don’t have the treasure and fuck me but I don’t want us to have the blood either.
Corner Stone
@soonergrunt:
Better in what way? In a way that comported itself to your notions? Notions of Western modernity and justice?
We arrogantly consider no facts but those that make sense to us.
Sure, medicine, water, transport – those all seem like worthy goals and I applaud them. But they all came at the tip of our spear.
Annie
@Montysano:
Having spent the last several weeks talking with educators from Afghanistan, I can say that development aid has had a small, yet significant, impact.
The problem is deciding are we giving development support or military support? They are very different. Bush tried to make us believe that military aid can bring nation-building and development. It can’t. They have different objectives. And, believe me, I do love the military. They are asked to do an impossible job — military or development. Our military saved my ass in Bosnia numerous times. So, I do appreciate having them around.
Again, in Afghanistan, what is it??? Development aid or military support? To what end. I do agree that the “business” with contractors is extremely disturbing. But, which contractors? Military or development? Again, what are we trying to achieve????
Montysano
@ellaesther:
That percentage was completely pulled out of my ass.
@soonergrunt:
What could we have done?
With all due respect, digging wells and building schools is standard foreign aid fare. No military invasion is required to do those things.
jm
And yet, the result, all too often, is strikingly similar. (Sadly, this is not an isolated instance of Obama-Bush convergence.)
General Winfield Stuck
@soonergrunt:
It was a typo. I meant ten or fifteen thousand.
@General Winfield Stuck:
Montysano
@Annie:
But when that aid comes bundled with Predator missiles fired from drones, I think it’s a net negative.
I have not a clue. When asked what would constitute success, Gen. McChrystal said “We’ll know it when we see it”. That answer should have gotten him fired.
Robertdsc-iphone
By the way, many folks here have said it’s a good thing for Obama to be hands-off during the healthcare debate. Well, I want to see that for any new war funding. I’d love to see CBO scores for endless war that gains us nothing. I’d love to see the fiscal scolds like Nelson & Conrad twist themselves into knots trying to explain why deficit spending for war is OK while health care for all is not. I’d love to see the GOP filibuster a war spending bill paid for with new taxes.
Separately, the “hands-off” meme gains no traction with me because the White House has already interfered with bills going through. They didn’t support cramdown against the banks as said on the record by Bennet of Colorado. They twisted many liberal arms to get the war supplemental through. They’re perfectly capable of applying the pressure, but they CHOOSE not to.
soonergrunt
@Corner Stone:
You’re right, of course. The fact that I had a weapon on me means that the cholera, dysentery, typhus, the washed out dirt roads that prevented inter-village trade and access to medical care, and the illiteracy that even the parents knew was damning their children to nothing better than the tenant farming that was killing them, these and other ills of poverty were morally superior than what we did. You seem to be under some bizarre illusion that we threaten people to either allow us to solve their problems or maybe we’ll kill their children or something.
We ask if we can help with anything. We help with what we can, and if the answer is no, we move on. There aren’t a lot of resources and it’s better to help people who want it and will tell their neighbors about it than to piss people off.
Maybe, just maybe, the fact that the other guys are trying to keep all of these things that way, at the barrel of a gun, just might have some effect on your calculations. They do this because their whole shtick is that the suffering in this world will get the victim into paradise quicker. That the people claiming this almost never suffer these deprivations themselves never gets brought up.
You don’t have to own a an HDTV to see that things like clean water, freedom from disease and starvation are basic human rights and not a western value. The idea that they shouldn’t have it because we gave it to them is one of the dumbest damn things I’ve encountered in a long time to say nothing of being racist and immoral in the extreme.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
I think I am still suffering from outrage exhaustion that the last
administrationdisaster inflicted on us. While I am not happy with some of the decisions that Obama has made I am willing to wait and see how it pans out.BushCheney had eight years to fuck things up royally so I have problems with being outraged by anything at this point.That the alternative was McCain/Starbursts makes me all the more patient. Obama is dealing with invertebrate Democrats, revolting (in far too many ways) Republicans plus an anxious public so I would say that he has his hands full right now.
Will he fail? I expect that he will fall short on some things, be flat out wrong on others and pull off some good stuff for us. He is the president and he will be known for what he did or did not do.
All I can do right now is watch, opine and write my congresscritters if I feel the need to. That’s reality.
soonergrunt
@Montysano:
So of course, you’ll be joining the peace corps to go over there and work in places like Wardak and Tagab all by your unarmed lonesome right soon?
You’ll expect others to do this?
Good luck with that.
soonergrunt
@General Winfield Stuck: LOL. That changes the picture considerably. You can even have a couple of pool tables and a movie every Friday then.
But here’s the thing, and there’s really no getting around it.
The counter-terror-only strategy you are talking about will not work.
Without getting the local people involved and invested in your victory, you will never get Bin Laden, or anybody more than that same Al Quaeda #3 guy over and over and over again.
you have to deal with people, and that requires that you have the ability to show them that dealing with you is in their best interests, both short and long-term.
Would you help somebody who isn’t going to be around to protect you and your family when the night comes in a week and the bad guys come down out of the hills?
ellaesther
@Montysano: Well, yes, I realize that — I was treating it as metaphor! Like any number in politics….
My masters degree is in the social sciences. We use the word “science” raaaather loosely.
General Winfield Stuck
@soonergrunt:
OBl is running free now. There are no good solutions to the situation, only realities. Intelligence can be attained in several ways, technology, and covert interaction with the people. It doesn’t require face to face interaction with Americans. We have been doing this all over the world for decades. And the biggest reality of all is that we cannot impose our will on a country that doesn’t want or even understand our way of governing. Just won’t work and is also unsustainable in all the ways that count.
The other ethnic folks of Afghan. don’t much care for AQ or the Taliban and they would help us with fighting at least the AQ part, which is really the only justification for us being there. There are other ways we can assist them materially, but not by meddling in their politics and fighting their civil wars for them.
soonergrunt
@Annie:
That would be where you are wrong.
The Bush Admin wanted to pass Afghanistan as much as possible off to NATO. NATO obliged at first. They opened up Provincial Reconstruction Teams all over the country. Offered all sorts of help to farmers and built some roads and were determined in the fall of 2005 to show the Americans that they knew more about dealing with these poor benighted people than us and that as one Italian diplomat working for ISAF said “show the Americans that they don’t have to be so brutish.” The Brits were particularly annoying about this shit when I was there. This changed after a couple of lightly armed PRT teams from ISAF were killed. ISAF took over almost all operations in country half-way through my tour there. The US combat forces were a separate command from the ETTs and other Nation Building forces. ISAF/NATO would continue to talk shit in press conferences and such about the American cowboys, but would turn around and ask us for help saving their dumbass under-armed teams. The Canadians and the Brits, as annoying as they were about it, never got into that kind of trouble, because they were properly equipped and armed.
There’s plenty of blame to go around for the current situation in Afghanistan, and Bush deserves a lot of it, but don’t leave NATO or the US Congress, both when Democrats controlled the Senate until 2002 and after 2006, and when Republicans controlled everything from 2002 to 2006 out of your calculations on this.
soonergrunt
@General Winfield Stuck: I wish that it worked like that there.
I can only say that I believe that if the complete destruction of Al Quaeda or stability in the region are your goals, then you need a lot of troops there running a highly disciplined counter-insurgency campaign. You can do both of these goals with this strategy.
If you’re not prepared to do that, then you must accept that Al Quaeda will most likely have a safe haven in which to headquarter and train after the Taliban win. You must also accept the concomitant risks to Pakistan and India who hate each other and have nuclear weapons.
General Winfield Stuck
@soonergrunt:
Looks like Obama is going to send the extra troops, so we will find out if you are right. I truly hope you are, but doubt it.
Corner Stone
@soonergrunt:
But that is exactly what WE FUCKING DO.
Corner Stone
@soonergrunt:
Fucking strawman in the extreme. Argue against something I’m actually saying next time.
SixStringFanatic
@Toni:
And China just announced that their premier will be at the Copenhagen climate summit next month.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20091126/climate/
This is more proof that Obama’s Asian trip was an utter failure.
chaos
George Bush: ~5.5% unemployment.
Barack Obama: ~??% unemployment because God knows when the “Spocks” are going to stop fucking up. 13%, 21% real? 15%, 25% real? Who knows and who cares, right?
I’d rather take the retard George Bush than the simply incompetent genius Obama. If you’re so glad to finally have a “thinking” president, your ability to think is pretty much nonexistent.
HB
“but does it matter when you get the same result from two different presidents? Either way the banks will be well-gorged and very happy.”
Ok, so what in the fuck would you have done different?
Comrade Dread
Well, at least our pundits would be too busy dodging giant radioactive cockroaches and cannibalistic mutant mobs to type up such gems.
Annie
@soonergrunt:
I was talking about Iraq – and I do blame Bush for the failure and corruption of the CPA. How much money disappeared from the CPA?
And, I have been there…
soonergrunt
@Corner Stone:
You really ought to learn about what actually goes on there before you say something stupid like this.
@Corner Stone: I’m sorry, but that argument is racist and immoral. Whining about split infinitives and dangling participles will not change that.
soonergrunt
@Annie: I’ll give you Iraq 100%, and thanks for the clarification on that.
You’ve been to Iraq? I saw somewhere else that you’d been to Afghanistan.
What do you do? State Department or an NGO?
Either way, thanks for what you do.
Annie
I am a former UN and NGO person — Now, I consult and teacher.
Thanks — you, too.
Annie
@Annie:
I meant “teach.” Where is that edit button????
mandarama
@soonergrunt:
Thank you to both soonergrunt AND Annie. Reading your input reminds me of how safe in my own bubble I am here and how easy it is to armchair quarterback from that safe place. I appreciate your consistent willingness to share your experiences and remain civil in debate.
Corner Stone
@soonergrunt: Hmmm, argument by authority. Always a winner.
bargal20
The Australian prime minister, Kevin Rudd, speaks fluent Mandarin.
maus
Meaning, Blue Dogs.