I missed the speech and now have to rush to Walgreens to get bandages because I sliced my thumb open while taking out the trash.
Reactions (to the speech, not my thumb dripping blood into the keyboard).
Reader Interactions
242Comments
Comments are closed.
D-Chance.
You don’t keep a first-aid kit in your home???
GambitRF
Chris Matthews was concerned that he didn’t sense any “warmth” from the audience. They were military officers in uniform, I don’t know if he was expecting them to like get up and do a jig or what.
donovong
Should we start a Balloon Juice Blood Drive?
McGeorge Bundy
Atrios wrote on twitter that for the first time it seemed to him like Obama didn’t believe what he was saying. I caught a little of that as well.
Oh look, Richard Wolffe!
donovong
@GambitRF: No. He wanted to see someone in uniform geting a thrill up their leg.
4tehlulz
Who cares what people like Cheney or McCain think? I await an analysis from that proven foreign policy hand, Sarah Palin.
rob!
Chris Matthews is so wildly inconsistent I’m starting to think he’s clinically Bipolar.
I mean, Jesus, referring to West Point as “enemy territory” to President Obama? REALLY?
Max
I am so sick of people on the fucking left acting like Obama is going against campaign promises.
He promised to do exactly this. Why are so many people trying to twist this into their own narrative.
I trust Obama and his instincts. I knew who I was voting for (twice) and I can’t wait to vote for him again.
Seanly
You don’t have basic first aid supplies around the house? I have enough for treating several gunshot victims. Not that I ever need to… no, not at all…
gex
@D-Chance.: You’d think so, what with Tunch and all.
McGeorge Bundy
@Max: I think for them it has less to do with campaign promises and more to do with progressive principles.
Seanly
No edit function, so I’m gonna double post.
If you don’t want first aid supplies for yourself, you should have some for Lily!
JK
@GambitRF:
Chris Matthews, Dick Cheney, and John McCain should just get a room already.
smiley
It’s late in the Fall term so there were a bunch of cadets yawning and falling asleep. The Prez was his usual “big speech” guy. Effective, convincing, and confirming why I voted for him. I’m sure he will be roasted tomorrow by all the usual suspects.
MikeJ
@McGeorge Bundy: Circular firing squads really are the most progressive of all principles.
Shawn
Taking out your trash and Obama’s speech have one thing in common: More American Blood.
4tehlulz
Starring in “No Exit.”
Max
@McGeorge Bundy: When did he claim to be “progressive”?
I don’t support a lot of “progressive” positions and consider myself a moderate. My positions are very close to Obama’s.
Jim
@GambitRF:
I guess he didn’t see the throng around POTUS after the speech. He was probably trying to powder the shine off his great forehead.
On the speech: I’m not convinced, it still relies on a series of happy dominoes falling into place, and I’m actually hoping for a lot of pragmatism, even cynicism, from the man who said tonight the country he is most interested in rebuilding is his own. I do think we have some kind of debt to the Afghanis, but I’m not convinced that the best way we can pay that debt is by not making it any bigger.
dr. bloor
@rob!:
It won’t ever occur to that fuckwad that his comment is a bigger insult to the cadets than to Obama. To them, he’s their CIC, end of story. They’d rip him a new asshole if they heard him question their loyalty to him.
As for the speech, a well-written speech that describes a well-thought out strategy that is doomed to fail.
Rey
Good speech but, I’m an Obamabot so what do I know. I hate that wars have to be fought but, they do. I trust this President to make the right decisions. With that, Good night and good luck.
P.S. I hate Chris Matthews.
Alex S.
Obama gulped a lot. I share Atrios’ feeling. There must have been a lot of pressure on Obama to deploy more troops. On the other hand, the withdrawal date is sooner than I would have wished for. Well, those timelines are never kept anyway, but the intention seems to be to wrap this up before the end of his term and that is a good decision. I mean, Obama won’t be able to keep his timeline on closing Gitmo or health-care reform (end of this year), but things have moved fast enough to make any short delay irrelevant. And the perspective of seeing the light at the end of the tunnel should change the trajectory of that whole mission.
D-Chance.
CNN post-speech analyis: interesting when Michael Ware is opining, gets silly when it gets thrown to pretty much anyone else at either table. Most of them are more than worthless.
Jamie
Not thrilled about it, but Obama”s gonna do what he said he was going to do in the campaign. This was one campaign promise I wouldn’t have missed if he didn’t try.
eemom
It IS possible to listen to the speech……form one’s own conclusions…….and have an intelligent discussion about it…….WITHOUT listening to Tweety or McCain or any other useless purveyor of lies and bullshit give their less than useless “reaction.”
It is — technically — possible.
McGeorge Bundy
@MikeJ: Herding cats and all that.
@Max: I don’t know that he ever did, and at any rate I didn’t claim he did. I was correcting your analysis of why “the fucking left” is so upset.
JK
@4tehlulz:
And soon to be starring in a remake of The Three Stooges
MikeJ
My first thought was to let Lily clean the wound with her tongue, but I don’t think Cole wants the pets getting a taste for human blood.
Max
@McGeorge Bundy: That was my point, that many of those on the hard left saw in him positions that didn’t exist and now, they feel betrayed, when all along it was their own delusions.
LTMidnight
@McGeorge Bundy:
There’s only one problem with that argument. The progressives supported the war in Afghanistan. Now they’ve suddenly changed their minds.
rob!
@dr. bloor:
Yeah, it seemed like a horrendous insult towards the troops, as soon as i heard it. Criminy.
SiubhanDuinne
It’s a good thing you weren’t taking out the trash naked the way you do most household chores, or it might not have been your thumb.
chopper
ur doing it wrong.
MikeJ
@Max: I keep hearing that the left was deluded and thought he was going to bring them ponies, but I’ve never met these people. I go to drinking liberally and hang out with Democrats all the time, but everyone I know thought he was a center right guy from the start. They just thought he was better than the alternatives.
Ash
@D-Chance.: Isn’t it a sad state of affairs when Michael Weir (who is probably high on any number of substances right now) is the most coherent?
Leelee for Obama
He threaded the needle like an expert. He hates what he has to do, but I think he accepts the cup he’s been given to drink. He ran for this office knowing what the hell the mess was, for the most part. So, he ordered the drink, after all. I’m sure it’s worse than he figured, but that’s another reason I’m not pissed. He didn’t start the fire, he just has to get it contained and, hopefully, put it out.
I think the Cadets respect him, because he doesn’t lie to them, or us. He appreciates their sacrifice, unlike They Who Must Not Be Named.
I hope the news tomorrow is that other NATO countries pony up some troops and money, and that last week, the Indian PM promised some concessions to keep Pakistan happy, and on the team.
I’ll go listen to the MSNBC pundits, until I can’t stand anymore.
Keith just said Larry Wilkerson will be on, so at least that long, KWIM?
And yeah, I did hear that “I got your dithering right here, MF!” I liked it, so maybe DICK will stroke out later this eve.
General Winfield Stuck
@Max:
Jesus yes. But I see no end to it, so we will just have to keep correcting the record. Seems some on the left think that since they voted for him, he should do their bidding or they can make any charge.
It is ok, imo, to complain that they would like him to do this or that, but not to claim because they don’t like it, that he is breaking campaign pledges when it is not true. Woe is democrats, they are a handful. Sometimes.
Max
@MikeJ: I’m not saying they are actual, real people, but they do exist in the blogosphere and twitter and on the tv.
someguy
While you’re all getting your panties in a wad about this predictable clusterfuck, did anybody notice the gutless maneuver on Honduras? Yep, we’re recognizing the illegally elected government there. I mean there’s precedent for it, what with Bush/Gore 2000, but still.
arguingwithsignposts
@Max:
Well, no. He promised to finish the job. That may or may not have included more troops when he was campaigning. I think he split the baby here. Tough call, but he didn’t have any good options. If he can pass a decent HCR bill, and get some jobs bill passed, it’ll work out ok for most. But damn, I wish our troops weren’t in danger.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
@4tehlulz:
Starring in “
NoRear Exit.”Plot: Chris introduces John and Dick to the thrill running up his leg.
Sleeping Dog
You didn’t miss much.
All together now in D
It was back in…
Mike in NC
You know who else gave speeches at West Point? Hitler!
McGeorge Bundy
@Max: Respectfully, I think you do not understand what “hard left” means. Nobody on the hard left supported Obama. A bit of empty quibbling, but for some reason I let it bother me. Anyway, I think progressives had more than a few reasons to think Obama thought largely as they did (see: campaign talk on NAFTA, Wall Street vs. Main Street, torture, etc.) but on Afghanistan there’s not much room for maneuver. Obama’s doing more or less what he said he’d do. Now, I don’t think that means progressives who voted for Obama have no right to be upset with his decision. The man’s an elected politician, not the Dear Leader. Citizens should work to pressure politicians as best they legally can, etc.
Seanly
Even NPR this evening was poo-pooing a withdrawal timetable. I got furious – if the Al Qeada can wait us out 3 years, can’t they wait us out 30 years or 100 years? In fact, the sooner we get out the better. Then the locals aren’t raising their children & grandchildren to throw off the occupying infidels.
Plus I’d rather spend our treasury fixing our roads or providing for the less fortunate.
bayville
Is this a special three-way Family Feud episode from the Ray Combs days on CNN?
It looks like the Correspondents (Capt. Amanpour) vs. The Gergens vs. The Tom Braden All-Stars.
Is there a network Mary Matalin hasn’t appeared on in the past week?
And I sure hope Obama asks Donna Brazille for advice. She might be the only person on television who can make Gloria Bolger seem coherent.
Christ, I almost miss Bob Novak.
D-Chance.
Could CNN possibly limit the discussion to 2-3 people who know what the Hell they’re talking about and have some experience with the subject instead of crowding 20 goofs onto the set spouting 15 second soundbites?
Ash
Oh, there’s a loooooooooooot of them out there. They’re mostly stupid people, but they exist.
DougJ
Chris Matthews is so wildly inconsistent I’m starting to think he’s clinically Bipolar.
It’s called being Irish, I’m afraid. If he showed up at one of my family gatherings, he would be the most consistent one there, other than my brother-in-law.
arguingwithsignposts
@Seanly:
that’s crazy talk, sockulist!
Anya
@rob!:
Did anyone challenge him on that idiotic comment. I really hate Chris Matthews.
McGeorge Bundy
@LTMidnight: Many did, many didn’t. Being completely honest, I think many progressives used the war in Afghanistan as leverage against Bush and the Republicans. ‘Look how UnSerious these people are! They mired us in Iraq when the real bad guys are in Afghanistan!’ It was politically expedient at the time to say so, and now after they’ve looked more closely at the situation, they’ve decided it’s not the Good War after all. Dishonest but not surprising.
arguingwithsignposts
Oh, yeah:
WTF? Steel trash cans?
Max
@McGeorge Bundy: So, did those on the “hard left” as you define it sit out the election?
I am not saying you shouldn’t be disappointed, but I take issue with those who say that he is betraying campaign promises or not ending the war in AfPak like he said he would.
Every citizen has a right to disagree with whomever they wish, but you lose me when you falsely subscribe positions to Obama that he does not possess and statements he did not make.
Annie
Overall, I thought it was a good speech. He stuck it to Cheney-Bush several times — nuances that Lady Sarah will surely missed. As I was listening I kept thinking of what kind of speech she would give if she was in the same spot.
One worry is how much of our strategy depends on the Afghan government stepping up to the plate. If they don’t, the right will blame it on Obama. Pakistan, too. I think Obama has made it clear that the enormous amount of aid we give Pakistan is tied to their doing something about the contested border region. However, given Pakistan nukes, we can we do?
Leelee for Obama
Oh, sweet Christ! Maxine Waters is SHRILL! (and I like her)
Annie
Shit! Where is that edit function?
kommrade reproductive vigor
I missed the speech too, but not because my garbage can lid doubles as a giant throwing star.
I’m just waiting to see which fReichtard will be the first to convert Obama’s blinks to Morse code and discover he transmitted our entire military stratergery to OBL.
@4tehlulz: Nice.
With Cheney as Garcin, McCain as Ines and Tweets as Estelle.
JMY
I don’t think it’s a matter of the president not believing what he was saying, but an indication that this is a tough decision – a difficult decision, that he should not have even had to make if the previous administration it’s job. It may not be something he really wants to do but understands that the job needs to be done, an end is needed, and it has to be done right. So while I don’t agree with troop escalation I understand the reasons and understand the difficulty in making this decision.
McGeorge Bundy
@Max: I have no idea as I can’t speak for all of them. But when someone says “hard left” I think Chomsky, Zinn, Alexander Cockburn, Hitchens (except on foreign policy), Louis Proyect, etc. You know the lot. Anarchists, Marxists, Trotskyists. Not exactly welcome within the Democratic fold.
Speaking for myself I did not expect Obama to do anything but what he’s doing now.
Every citizen has a right to disagree with whomever they wish, but you lose me when you falsely subscribe positions to Obama that he does not possess and statements he did not make.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Wait. I guess McCain would make a better Estelle.
Mike P
@McGeorge Bundy:
The issue, of course, being that nobody, nobody, nobody knows the right plan of action is here. We leave now: bad shit happens for sure. We leave in a few years: bad shit is probably still going on, but hopefully there’s less of it.
It’s fucked five ways to Saturday and it’s annoying to see people (whatever their stance) act so damn obstinate in defense of their POV. If this were easy, someone would have fixed it already.
JK
@D-Chance.:
Watching see CNN is like watching a circus act where all those clowns keep getting out of that one small car.
mai naem
I would feel better if I didn’t feel he’s been pushed into this decision. I swear Bush/Cheney set up all this crap so that a Dem would be elected and fail and furthermore, not be able to do any decent social programs. Every time I hear about deficits I want to flip these people off because a lot of this deficit is caused by the lotsawar and notaxes crowd.
rob!
@anya
Nope. Neither Olbermann or Maddow did. I like them both, but that’s the sad state of cable news.
I will give Maddow credit–Matthews had spouted off one odd theory about “The President will be alone tomorrow”–and Maddow refuted it back, with, you know, observation of reality.
kay
Well, I liked it. Just standard Obama. The back story, the problem, the plan, the objective. I don’t know enough about Afghanistan to weigh in on substance, so I’ll pass.
I watched CNN. Several Republicans were lying.
Does Mary Matalin really not know what the Bush Doctrine is?
And, Paul Begala is my new second-favorite pundit, if Toobin is unavailable.
Mia Malkan
I thought President Obama gave a strong punch right at the beginning of his speech to the crazy wingnuts and yup, yup that certainly includes you Dickies and the ’twitta-quitta’ who courageously (cowardly) hid behind a ninety year old woman.
so, ’shut up, you idiotic, couch-commanders-in-chiefs and Dr.McCdreamy who keeps mumbling that ‘we should not withdraw, because success never withdraws’ or whatever…, for pity’s sake send the man home already, it is past 8pm and he needs his beauty sleep..
read more at http://thedailypingpong.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/we-do-not-seek-to-occupy-other-nations/
D-Chance.
Cole, how DO you slice open a thumb by toting a trash bag?
I sense a Tiger Woods saga developing here… did anyone call 9-1-1?
Max
@McGeorge Bundy:
I am referring to those on the left that thought because he was against the Iraq war, he was against all war.
My post began as a complaint about what I am reading online, not anything said by you or on this thread.
rob!
@DougJ:
How dare you that about the Irish! I’m Irish, too, and I’ll see you outside with my fists Liam Neeson and James Joyce!
JK
@Anya:
Matthews is simply paralyzed from the neck up.
McGeorge Bundy
@Mike P: I don’t think anybody denies that it’s a giant mess, and I think (hope) those of us calling for a relatively prompt withdrawal understand what that means for the Afghan people.
I don’t believe our involvement in Afghanistan is a strategic imperative.
arguingwithsignposts
@kay:
You mean there was a Republican that wasn’t???!???!
General Winfield Stuck
@McGeorge Bundy:
The term Progressive as adopted by some on the left does not mean what they think it means. It is fundamentally non ideological, and can include ideas from the right as well. It is purely pragmatic when used with politics, and need only making things better, usually by the whims of a majority in a democracy. Or Progress. Not dogma, left or right.
Though it isn’t current accepted wisdom by very many in the pol world, I believe Obama is actually a true progressive, and many in the liberal activist are not necessarily that, though I agree with them a lot more than the ideologues on the right.
The term progressive was coopted by liberals because Ronnie Raygun turned the term to poison in the publics mind. He’s dead as Francisco Franco, but not the fear of the L word for left of center folks.
kid bitzer
could we get a quote file, and also a highlight reel, of every one of these right-wing fox news slime-bags during the bush years saying “well, i think that anyone who criticizes the president at a time of war is a traitor”, and “these critics who question the president are undermining the troops”, and “criticizing the commander in chief is simply unacceptable when our troops are under fire”.
so that we can quote that shit back in their face when they go ragging on obama?
’cause i’m getting so goddamn sick of these bastards who put the republican party before their country.
mai naem
John probably cut his finger on one of Tunch’s cat food can tops. Tunch’s revenge for all those comments about how much he luuurvves Lily.
kay
@JMY:
This is the story of his presidency, don’t you think?
I occasionally feel some sympathy for him.
In between bouts of RAGE :)
Just Some Fuckhead
Here it is on Youtube. You’re welcome.
McGeorge Bundy
@Max: Well on that we’re in complete agreement. I’ve seen a few people who believe (or believed) such things on DailyKos, and it’s disappointing to say the least. But there are idiots in every crowd.
ksmiami
Wait and see what happens with India. They have the most to lose if Pakistan fails. This is why we are in Afghanistan – to keep the swamp from festering too much. I don’t want any of our mil. killed though so hopefully what we do is light footed and defensive in nature. Maybe we need to buy off more of the tribal leaders with Viagra – I think that was a pretty effective strategy for awhile. And to all the liberals not happy about this, take heart in the fact that actually the women’s groups in the urban Afghani areas do want us there and Obama has a point – Vietcong never blew up our sky scrapers, terrorists with safe harbor in Afghanistan – did. And that difference does matter. I was totally against Iraq fu #2, but some understanding and patrols in Afghanistan probably are a better use of our defensive efforts.
JMY
If Congress wasn’t suckered into believing the whole “WMD” story that led to war in Iraq, then he probably wouldn’t even have to do this. I find it funny that people think he was “pushed” to do this when this is something that he promised has a candidate and people agreed with it.
demkat620
I don’t really know what should be done in Afghanistan. That’s what we pay this guy to decide, so I’ll give him a chance.
I hope he’s right. I really, really hope he’s right.
Maude
@Annie: The right is blaming the civil war on Obama.
There are a ton of trolls on the intertubes tonight. The ignorance is mile high.
The exit date is a lot sooner than I thought. He is going to close down the mid east wars.
If Muddle Through McCain were president, we be in deep trouble.
Hillary Clinton could never have thought through something this complex. She would have had us hated more than Bush did. She was bellicose during the primaries. So, some who would say that we’d be better off with her are delusional.
Joy
@JK: Amen!
cleek
i watched the last 15 minutes on Fox… they kept showing shots of cadets falling asleep.
did the other networks do that, too ?
(i realize there was probably only one camera crew there)
Redshirt
I thought his appeal to civility and actual patriotism was inspiring, and hopefully opened a few people’s minds – former haters that is. Cuz I don’t believe you can hate the man if you give him a chance. He’s that good.
Obamabot, out.
Captain Goto
Me, I’ve found it amusing to see my new wife, as unliberal* and un-bloggy as she is, fall in line so well with much of the left blogosphere on this issue.
*I told her she’s the first true “libertarian feminist” I’ve ever met–strongly distrusts government, but is very progressive on gender stuff. And the only reason she reads e-mail is so she can teach her college classes.
JMY
@kay:
Yep, even though this is what comes with being president and he obviously knew that, I do feel sorry for him sometimes, because he can’t win either way. His presidency will be more about how he had to fix everything Bush screwed up. That will be his legacy: did he make every wrong by Bush right.
Mike P
@McGeorge Bundy: That’s the thing…I’m not sure if it’s in our strategic interests either, but I can’t say that it’s not either. You can make a solid case either way.
kay
@Mia Malkan:
I liked that, too. Screw them. They lie constantly. He should correct them.
Gibbs said the request sat on Cheney’s desk for 9 months.
So, Cheney is making stuff up again. It would be nice if someone other than the President would have the balls to call Dick Cheney out on a lie, but I guess that would take a less timid media.
BruceFromOhio
While John is gone we can make fun of his spech impediment.
I did not see the spech, I was chasing rabbits and tiny dancers.
DougJ
and I’ll see you outside with my fists Liam Neeson and James Joyce!
Liam Neeson? Surely you can do better than that.
DougJ
I sense a Tiger Woods saga developing here… did anyone call 9-1-1?
Tunch pulled him out of the trash can after knocking the top off with a golf club.
McGeorge Bundy
@General Winfield Stuck: Right, sort of. I think many self-defined progressives know little about the Progressive Era, La Follette, etc. But I don’t think it can be denied that progressivism has always been inclined toward more egalitarian issues like justice, labor, etc. I think calling it “purely pragmatic” is maybe a bit strong, but that’s not something I want to get into right now. I’ve had enough of Dewey and James etc. for the week.
You’re dead-on when you state why liberals adopted the word as their own.
arguingwithsignposts
@kay:
They could just not put him on the air. That doesn’t require a whole lot of spine.
Martin
Yeah, I missed the speech as well.
So is Obama a Carteresque surrender-monkey, or a black Dick Cheney? According to GOS, he’s the latter. I’m guessing according to anyone right of, oh Nancy Pelosi, he’s the former.
gwangung
Of course he won’t.
It’s easy to fuck things up. It’s hard to fix things. But no matter what, he’ll be considered a failure by large segments of the country.
Captain Goto
Oh–and does anyone else have to restrain the urge to choke Dick Cheney until his eyeballs pop out?
Jesus God, I *hate* that goddamn motherfucker.
SiubhanDuinne
Ooooh! Keith said “Why don’t you just shut up, Dick?” wrt Darth Cheeney. Nice!
Anya
@JK: I don’t really understand how anyone watches him. But then again, how can anyone watch faux news.
Anya
@JK: I don’t really understand how anyone watches him. But then again, how can anyone watch faux news.
Dave
The Left hasn’t had an actual position on Afghanistan in quite some time. This speech tonight just wasn’t what we wanted to hear.
Darius
It was a good speech.
I just hope Obama knows what the hell he’s doing.
rob!
@DougJ:
Aw, come on–Neeson was Michael Collins AND Ra’s Al Ghul–plus he’ll be Hannibal Smith in the A-Team movie! I think that’s a proper fist name.
arguingwithsignposts
@General Winfield Stuck: @McGeorge Bundy:
And here we get into semantics. There is NO way to put that genie back in the bottle. From here on out, progressive is associated with “liberal” on the political spectrum, whether you like it or not.
And, FWIW, I don’t buy that “purely pragmatic” spin, because to “make things better” is usually (although not always, but I can’t think of an example contra) a liberal ideal.
MikeJ
Sure it was. I’m on the left, and it was pretty much exactly what I wanted to hear.
Martin
@General Winfield Stuck:
I agree completely.
McGeorge Bundy
@Mike P: One can make a case either way, but I think the only solid case existing is the one for withdrawal. There are so few al-Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan and the danger of spawning (due to our very presence) further extremists and terrorists so high, that alone just about seals the deal for me.
Of course, when one pulls back and thinks about how the leadership of the most powerful nation on earth — perhaps the most powerful nation to ever exist — believes that our future is so inextricably linked to a tiny insignificant rugged tribal plot of land, well, it’s laughable. There’s something twisted about it.
JK
@DougJ:
How about,
Sean O’Casey, William Butler Yeats, Frank McCourt, Malachy McCourt, George Bernard Shaw, Oscar Wilde, Samuel Beckett, Brendan Behan, Flann O’Brien, or Seamus Heaney.
eric
Max: allow me to articulate a pragmatic progressive liberal critique of Obama’s decision on Afghanistan that mirrors a critique we hear on health care. First, you can stay there folr 50 years, you are not going to win what you think you are going to win. Whatever gains you think you made will be undone within a few months of the US departure…think Turks rolling back into the tranches at Gallipoli after the British bombardment. Obama is smart, he knows this. So, and here is the critique, the GOP is going to shred him no matter he does, period. Same with health care. You don;t have to choose the “liberal” position: any position Obama adopts will be attacked in the US by the GOP and the MSM. So, if you can’t win the real war and you are going lose he P.R. war, let’s not allow more service people and civilians to die unnecessary and horrible deaths and maimings.
In short, the books are cooked. Obama can’t win this one no matter what he does and progressives are angry that people are going to die on what is, in essence, a fool’s errand.
eric
BWthemoose
Read the speech online. didn’t hear it— but if his other speeches are any guide to his delivery,this was a great one. Man he can marshal an argument.
I am still conflicted about the wisdom of the “surge” so-to-speak, but I have the feeling that it comes downt to the
Least Bad Option.
At least it sound like the strategy of the war was planned on planet earth, rather than in some fantasy land like the previous administrations plans were dreamed up.
joe from Lowell
Ha ha, John, you suck!
This is the best blog post ever.
MikeJ
Col Wilkerson: he thinks Americans will like this because 75% of them are sane.
gwangung
@MikeJ: The great Leftist hivemind at work.
/snark
kay
@JMY:
I would disagree on “can’t win either way”. I think if he makes progress on practical issues that affect their lives people will forgive a lot.
Not because he’s so fabulous, or because people are so wonderfully generous, but because everything’s relative, and “better than it was last year” is often good enough.
McGeorge Bundy
@arguingwithsignposts: Nearly as bad when someone says, to much shock and horror, ‘I’m a conservative.’ What? ‘No, no, not that kind of a conservative: I’m a Burkean Nockean anarcho-conservative!’
General Winfield Stuck
@McGeorge Bundy:
yes, it could be. Everything starts out from our world view of what should be done to be right, by way of at least some ideology. But when making the nuts and bolts to make it work better, it becomes pragmatic, albeit always with room for useful creativity.
JMY
@MikeJ:
No it was what I wanted to hear and that is some type of strategy or idea of what the hell we are going to do in Afghanistan instead of acting as if we never went over there in the first place like Bush.
rob!
@JK:
How about…Oscar Wilde
…naming your fist after someone who was put on trial for sodomy? I guess that might be very intimidating!
McGeorge Bundy
@JK: My friend, I love your taste in literature. But let’s leave out the McCourts and Shaw, and elevate Beckett and O’Brien to the top of the list.
Myles na gCopaleen for the win!
arguingwithsignposts
@McGeorge Bundy:
Yeah, I love the button-holing. :)
gwangung
@JMY: Though that’s kind of a low bar to hurdle…
D-Chance.
@JK:
Yes, a couple of hosts, 3 tables with 15 commentators, one big-ass screen with the motion sickness inducing “Decision Afghanistan” logo, and dozens of other background screens with gaudy moving graphics aren’t enough… they’re also throwing it out to several other talking heads and assorted congress critters.
Comrade Luke
@arguingwithsignposts:
Totally agree, and I love how the argument redefines “progressive” by replacing it with another undefined word, “better”.
Guess that makes Goldman Sachs execs progressives.
kay
@arguingwithsignposts:
They’re doing that even-steven thing. They cover the Democratic President a lot. They have to give equal time to the Republican President.
Martin
He doesn’t. Nobody does here. But that doesn’t mean we get to do nothing. Leaders are the guys who will make the risky call and stand by the results.
I think he knows as much as he can know, however, and that’s a big improvement over the previous guy.
Max
@eric: So, what do we do? Leave? and let the whole region fall apart? remembering that Pakistan has nukes?
Obama inherited a fucking shit sandwich and is trying to swallow it down.
Leelee for Obama
And, once again, I have to say, I LOVE Larry Wilkerson.
Corner Stone
@Seanly:
Not if you know what the fuck you’re doing, at any length.
ellaesther
@MikeJ: Me too.
Among the (many) high points:
The phrase “violent extremism” — if I’m not mistaken, the only time he used the word “Islam” was when he described al Qaeda as “a group of extremists who have distorted and defiled Islam, one of the world’s great religions.”
Because this is not a war against Islam.
DougJ
@JK
More like it.
I just don’t get Liam Neeson. Gabriel Byrne and Daniel Day-Lewis, yes.
Bad Horse's Filly
I was decorating my War-on-Christmas Tree while I listened to the speech. I was sad, angry and resigned. I will forever hate Bush/Cheney/’liberal’ media for the illegal war in Iraq that has led us to this untenable position in Afghanistan. More blood will be shed and in the end there is no real reason to believe anything will have been changed.
JK
Does anything better prove Jon Stewart’s point that the MSM is hurting America than the Night of the Living Pundits show now airing on the 3 cable news channels in which a cavalcade of clueless wankers who have no goddamn clue how to fix Afghanistan start slicing and dicing Obama’s speech as if they’re ShamWow! Guy Vince Offer?
arguingwithsignposts
@DougJ:
What about David Byrne?
gwangung
If I’m honest with myself, I think I would have rather sick feelings no matter what was announced….all shrouded with what ifs, if thens, and second order derivatives. I mistrust anyone who has absolute certainty about this situation.
Of Bugs and Books
@Mia Malkan:
After the President’s speech O’Reilly and Rove said that the decisions on Afghanistan should have taken “about a week.”
McGeorge Bundy
@DougJ: Day-Lewis may have Irish citizenship, but he’s no Irishman. For Christ’s sake, his father, English though Ireland born, was Cecil Day-Lewis, poet laureate of Britain!
mai naem
I know this might sound stupid but if you can plant poppies why can’t you plant another valuable plant. I know this is not the whole problem but I have to believe that if you get some kind of economy going there the people would be more likely to resist the taliban.
arguingwithsignposts
@JK:
Win.
@Bad Horse’s Filly:
More win.
ellaesther
(I’mma gonna re-post a book recommendation I made yesterday)
As I have before, I’d like to recommend Paul Fitzgerald and Elizabeth Gould’s book Invisible History: Afghanistan’s Untold Story for some good insight on why the troubles exist there, and why simply pulling up stakes would have been a pretty bad idea (with the understanding that there are no truly “good” ideas, either).
(Full disclosure: The link is to a review in the Dallas Morning News. Fuller disclosure: I’m the reviewer).
Shawn in ShowMe
Liam Neeson was a pretty good amateur boxer. He’d whip all their asses.
soonergrunt
@DougJ: You may not have seen Taken.
Liam Neeson played one scary dude in that movie.
eric
@Max: i am not sure that an American presence in Afghanistan does anything to stabilize Pakistan. My own sense is that economic development of the non-opiate variety is the best chance to avoid rabid ecshatological terrorist cells. There s very little difference between Afghanistan and Colombia when one considers the ruthlessness that the criminals use to “terrorize” the populace. Most liberals agree that to gut the cartels you go after the demand side of the equation, not the supply side. Likewise, here you work with neighbors and the UN to invest in real infrastructure and schools with the hope of economic opportunity. You have to make the people want to escape the cycle of violence and you have to help them do it. If I beleived that was where the extra troops was taking u, I would support it, but I do not. We will just see more dead and wounded, while a truly “evil” GOP and MSM spin tragedy into a dellusion politically advantageous narrative.
eric
JK
@DougJ:
For a nation as small in population as Ireland, they have produced a mother lode of literary geniuses.
McGeorge Bundy
@Shawn in ShowMe: Bet on it, because except for Malachy McCourt and Seamus Heaney, they’re all dead.
ellaesther
@Of Bugs and Books: In fairness, the decisions their administration made re: at least one war in the region took negative time, as they were made before there was even an excuse to go to war!
So, you know, for them, “a week” is like… wow, just so much time!
Leelee for Obama
For this transplanted colleen, this trio is the gift that keeps on giving!
arguingwithsignposts
@ellaesther:
Ella, you dropped the link. I enjoyed your review, BTW.
@soonergrunt:
Yeah, Liam is teh awesome in that movie. Wish it had more of a plot.
donovong
@mai naem: It’s called going with what you know, for which you can get the best price, all done while some bastard with a gun pointed at you strongly suggests that you do so.
JMY
@Of Bugs and Books:
Isn’t it hilarious the Rove would say the decision should have taken a week, when his boss didn’t even make the decision of what to do with Afghanistan after being there for years? No he decided to leave it to the next person.
Jim
@Max:
That’s why I’m so bothered by most of the reaction on the “internet Left.” It seems to boil down to “Bush was in Afghanistan, so if Obama doesn’t pull out, he’s just like Bush.” I’m uneasy about the whole thing precisely because what we’re looking for is, as someone said above, a least bad solution. I don’t know what the real strength of AQ is, but the real problem is Pakistan and their military, we’re looking for stability, and it will involve moral and political compromises, and whatever the resolution of this plan is, it won’t be pretty. But I don’t think we can just pull out.
McGeorge Bundy
@JK: I think it’s unfair to rank the brothers McCourt and Behan with the rest. Talented writers, but no literary geniuses were they.
DougJ
What about David Byrne?
He’s Scottish.
Wile E. Quixote
D-Chance.
Yeah, no kidding, you’d think that someone who was into naked mopping would keep a well stocked first aid kit around the house.
DougJ
I think it’s unfair to rank the brothers McCourt and Behan with the rest. Talented writers, but no literary geniuses were they.
Especially the McCourt brothers. There’s a bit of genius to “That Auld Triangle”, IMHO.
tomvox1
@MikeJ:
Bingo. The “he’s more liberal than Jane Fonda riding in Ed Begley’s solar car” meme is from the Right.
McGeorge Bundy
@DougJ: And Frank had a better go of it than Malachy ever will. In fact, I think Malachy is pretty much a talentless hack, writing-wise.
Leelee for Obama
@JK: According to a book I read years ago, the Irish saved civilization! The illuminated manuscripts that the Irish monks incessantly transcribed saved the language and the beauty of the language. The most amazing part is that the lyricism of Irish poetry and prose came from such down trodden people. Shakespearean in it’s scope I’ve always thought.
D-Chance.
@JK: EOT.
‘night, all.
freelancer (itouch)
@DougJ:
Jesus, Barack! I was merely speculating about a hypothesis!
JK
@McGeorge Bundy:
Maybe. At any rate, I’ve always been blown away by the fact that a small nation like Ireland has a literary heritage that arguably could be considered the envy of the world.
DougJ
The most amazing part is that the lyricism of Irish poetry and prose came from such down trodden people.
I don’t know, I think that all lyricism probably comes from down trodden people. The non-down trodden are too busy cashing bonuses and buying glocks to protect the proceeds, you know?
ellaesther
@arguingwithsignposts: Thank you for saying so!
And for pointing out the link problem! Actually, I just made an error in judgment, and bolded the title, to make it obvious what the hell I was going on about, but in bolding it, I made it look like there’s no link!
So, for those who are interested, here it is again: Invisible History: The Untold Story of Afghanistan.
McGeorge Bundy
@Leelee for Obama: I know I’m being a pest about this, but Irish literature (that is, literature written by Irish people) is a passion of mine. And so I feel I should correct you when you say “the most amazing part is that the lyricism of Irish poetry and prose came from such down trodden people,” because it’s relatively untrue. Wilde, Beckett, Yeats, Shaw, these men can hardly be described as downtrodden. Joyce can be described that way, to a degree, and certainly Flann O’Brien.
Leelee for Obama
Malachy is so-so, but I think Frank McCourt made me love being Irish more than anyone in my life, and I didn’t know him, more’s the pity. His writing was wonderful, I thought. And I could listen to him in the same interview with Brian Lamb a hundred times and never be tired of it.
Annie
I am sorry, but in a more perfect world, we would start with the dialogue that Cheney-Bush fucked up both wars during their eight years. Now, what do we do?
We would refuse to hear any Cheney-Bush apologists, and laugh when they tried to attack Obama.
History does not begin today. Iraq was a costly mistake, and now we have to figure out how to get out, while at the same time figure out what to do with Afghanistan. The fact that the right has no legitimacy when it comes to national security, our military, budget, etc.– the key factors they wrap themselves around in addition to religion and faith — seems to be lost to all those journalists and pundits currently providing analysis of the speech.
Of Bugs and Books
Monica Crowley says our Iraq – Afghanistan strategy should be like a Thighmaster© squeezing Iran.
McGeorge Bundy
@JK: I as well. But come on, you think the brothers McCourt are on the same level as Joyce and Beckett? I think neither McCourt could have even written Dream of Fair to Middling Women, and I’m being generous. Ulysses? Portrait? Malone Dies? etc.
DougJ
Monica Crowley says our Iraq – Afghanistan strategy should be like a Thighmaster© squeezing Iran.
Did she actually say that?
mai naem
@Jim: Fine, Pakistan has nukes. And? You think they’re going to bomb us? Why aren’t the Chinese involved? Are the Indians involved? What about the Japanese? The Russians? I don’t meant to sound like an isolationist but I have a problem when Obama makes more of an effort pushing a war( or whatever you want to call it), then he does passing a strong public option. I cannot believe this WH is doing a better job pushing this crap war than the health care issue. I have a problem with the Ben Nelsons of the world not giving a crap about the cost of a very expensive war but OMG a public option available for the average American is too expensive. Meanwhile, the Chinese are going all around the world making friends in natural resource rich African and South American countries. They put in a soccer field in Tanzania. They’ve done some infrastructure stuff in one of the smaller S.A. countries.
Mia Malkan
@bugs and books
yeah right…given Rove’s & O’Reilly’s history they should have been out of public sight years ago..!! So let them drone on this for now and hopefully when things start improving they can suck on it all they like..
I’m sorry but I can’t stand the fact that these two scumbags have a forum to spew their venom day in and day out.
arguingwithsignposts
OK, BJ community. Literary folks, help me out here. Zecharia Sitchin. Thoughts?
mai naem
@tomvox1: Well, I am no Obamabot but I certainly didn’t think he was center right. I felt he was center, very slight center left. I was expecting to be disappointed by him but he’s been way more disappointing than I expected.
Libertini
@McGeorge Bundy:
I never believed it, and in fact, the people who did believe it on the Great Orange Satan were a big part of the reason Kos become monthly (or so) for me instead of Daily.
Of course, I was busy supporting John (The Walking Dick!!!) Edwards, so just count me as an idiot too.
JK
@McGeorge Bundy:
Naturally, I don’t rank the McCourt brothers alongside Joyce and Beckett. I was simply compiling a list of talented Irish writers and these were the first names that popped into my head.
Leelee for Obama
@McGeorge Bundy: Yeah, you’re right about them. Maybe Wilde could join the down-trodden what with his punishment for being teh gay.
JMY
@mai naem:
How is he making more of a push for war then the public option? The public option and health care reform in general is in the hands of Congress who makes legislation. He’s been talking about health care for a year and supports the public option compared to just one speech on Afghanistan which he had to address anyway.
baldheadeddork
If you had one of these you could keep working until the cut healed on its own.
Martin
@JK:
As someone coming from a proud Irish Catholic family, it’s the booze. Seriously.
Shawn in ShowMe
Well to be fair, Joyce couldn’t have written any of Frank McCourt’s stuff either. McCourt was a storyteller. Joyce was a Novelist.
srv
What will they all say when McChrystal comes back and asks for more troops in a year?
Will Obama dither next time, just give in, or make another pretty speech?
MikeJ
@baldheadeddork: The AK 47 of the keyboard world. Leave it in a mud filled ditch for six months and it will still fire/send flaming email.
kay
@Mia Malkan:
I think Rove’s approach came from the corporate world. That phony Master of the Universe certainty. The strutting and selling and boasting. The definitive Rove quote, to me, is where he made up his own poll numbers prior to the 2006 election.
We’ve seen some of that pie in the sky bullshit in the business world, the last two years, haven’t we?
Something weird happened to this country over my lifetime.
We inexplicably decided that everything had to be approached using a business model.
It doesn’t make any fucking sense, it doesn’t work, but we followed it lock-step for twenty years, in everything from education to health care to wars.
Rove is one those people, and so is Cheney. They only have one approach.
McGeorge Bundy
@JK: I’m trying to get into an argument, and here you are being calm and reasonable. Fuck you.
@Leelee for Obama: Let’s call him the Eventually Downtrodden Oscar Wilde.
Martin
@Wile E. Quixote:
I’ve got a first aid kit in my car that could patch up a platoon. Earthquake country, you know. I figure I’m never all that far from my car, so why not just keep it there?
arguingwithsignposts
@JK:
What, no Bono? :) Of course, any list of Irish writers would not be complete without Van Morrison.
McGeorge Bundy
@Shawn in ShowMe: Novels aren’t stories, gotcha. Also, let’s conveniently ignore Dubliners, a collection of short stories. I think if Frank McCourt were alive, and you told him Joyce could never write as he did, he’d laugh in your face.
Jim
@mai naem:
You raise several different issues, but just to take two:
Would the Pakistan gov’t nuke the US? I sincerely doubt it. Would AQ sympathizers in the Pakistani military or intelligence give a bomb or materials for a dirty bomb (I honestly don’t know enough about the technology to know what the possibilities are) to cause massive death and damage in a US, or European city, or any city anywhere in the world? It’s not a possibility I’m comfortable with.
As for Obama pushing harder for war than for the PO: The war is already here. And I’ve never exactly understood what so many people seem to think Obama could do wrt Ben Nelson, Joe Lieberman and the rest that he’s not doing.
srv
Somebody said three underlines…
Maybe this link will work.
McGeorge Bundy
@Shawn in ShowMe: Novels aren’t stories, right. And let’s conveniently ignore that much lauded collection of short stories, Dubliners.
If Frank McCourt were alive and you told him Joyce couldn’t do what he did, he’d laugh in your face.
JK
@McGeorge Bundy:
Speaking of arguments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
arguingwithsignposts
@McGeorge Bundy:
This is not my Balloon Juice! How did I get here?! (skip ahead to 1:00)
McGeorge Bundy
Ah, Monty Python and Talking Heads. Now I remember why I come here.
arguingwithsignposts
@Jim: @mai naem:
The question isn’t “would Pakistan nuke the US, but would nukes be used against other regional states, i.e., India.
The answer there is, sadly, hell yes. And that’s a shit storm we don’t want to face.
Of Bugs and Books
Hannity says the President said “eighteen months and we’re outta there”.
Actually, the President’s text said:
Even Negroponte corrected Hannity.
Dave
Re: Irish writers: see also John Banville and William Trevor.
handy
@arguingwithsignposts:
Overheard a Jimmy Buffet cover of that today. It was godawful. Sorry Parrotheads, but it was.
JK
@arguingwithsignposts:
I was originally thinking of Irish writers in terms of novelists, poets, and playwrights, but if I’d broadened my perspective to include musicians, of course Bono and Van Morrison would have to be included on such a list.
geg6
I do not like this decision at all, but I accept it as the least horrible plan. I am so torn about this as I supported the Afghan mission and still think it could have succeeded without Iraq. I knew what Obama’s position was on the matter and I could see that, though I was skeptical after the Cheney Administration FUBARed the whole thing, he had a good grasp of the strategic and political issues and that he took it seriously. So I’m resignedly behind him here. And OT, thanks to all for the well wishes and jokes earlier today. Much appreciated. Special thanks to Fuckhead for that riff on all of us BJers in the live speech thread. That won the Intertrons, maybe for all time. Laughed my ass off.
Of Bugs and Books
@DougJ:
Sadly, no.
To my credit, I was simultaneously typing and biting my fingers to keep myself from using quotation marks.
Betsy
@General Winfield Stuck:
Oooh ooh I can out-nitpick you! “Progressive,” capitalized, refers to the Progressive party, its ideology and politics. “progressive,” not capitalized, has evolved to have a separate meaning. Yes, its roots are in the earlier incarnation, but it no longer has that meaning. It was not only adopted because “liberal” had become a dirty word; it is also useful because “liberal” as still used by economists and social theorists has a very different meaning than its colloquial one. Further, although the Progressives identified as non-ideological, most would agree that there was more than a touch of self-marketing in such descriptions.
/intolerable pedant who should probably be hit with a pie + 2
Jim
@arguingwithsignposts:
Good point.
arguingwithsignposts
@JK:
Indeed, how could you ignore the Domino?
Ed Marshall
I’m an Obamabot who worked his Senate campaign, the primaries and FM’ed Team Blitz in Lake County, IN. I couldn’t be bothered to hear the shit tonight. If I feel this level of fatigue, I can’t imagine how anyone else feels. We really need to win something.
arguingwithsignposts
@Ed Marshall:
You know, I really don’t think all this fatigue is Obama’s fault. Look at the Senate, for instance. Is it Obama’s fault that we have dickheads like Baucus and Nelson and Snowe and others running the show there? No.
Is it Obama’s fault that Bush left a steaming pile of shit on his doorstep that he’d have to clean up as president? No.
Could he have done better so far? Sure. But there are no magic ponies. Even Abe Lincoln had less than half the country behind him when he went to war to keep the union together, and look what he got for his troubles. Ditto MLK.
I’m as pessimistic as the next BJ commenter, but dammit, I’m taking what I can get, because I have to hang on to something.
And 2011 is a DATE. That’s shutting the door on an endless war, at least (note that it was before his second term).
Corner Stone
@srv:
The same things they are saying tonight:
“He hated this decision”(tm)
“He had no choice here”(tm)
“He was very somber and deliberate”(tm)
“This was the least bad option”(tm)
“I trust his judgment”(tm)
“He knows more about it than I do”(tm)
JK
@arguingwithsignposts:
My favorite Van Morrison song is And It Stoned Me. I deeply resent the fact that the original studio version of this song is unavailable on YouTube and instead you have to settle for a bunch of atrocious, putrid, and nauseating cover versions.
General Winfield Stuck
@Betsy:
LOL
I stand pedanted.
Shawn in ShowMe
Novels most certainly are stories. I just don’t subscribe to the premise that being a master of complexity also makes you a master of simplicity. We’ll have to leave it there ;-)
kay
@Ed Marshall:
I agree, and completely sympathize. I honestly don’t think he can do more than he’s doing, though. He just has to keep plugging away.
arguingwithsignposts
@JK:
Ooh, I like “And it stoned me,” too. Here’s the “official” version. Which isn’t as good as the album version.
I also like “Days Like This,” but I can’t find a suitable version for that one.
Ed Marshall
I understand. I can do math and I know the arcane rules of the Senate. We need to win anyway. You can’t beat on doors and tell people the presidency and both houses of the legislature doesn’t mean change.
kay
@Ed Marshall:
Right again. Couldn’t agree more.
ruemara
@Jim:
Where the right thinks Obama should’ve done a beat down on Akihito and then smooth jazzed his woman into bearing cute lil black japanese kids instead of polite bowing, you can now see the left think that Obama should be pulling Lieberman, Nelson, Reid et al into an alley way and get all Jeff Beakman on them until they say uncle and push for single payer and kumbaya as the new national anthem.
This would be funny, except this is national politics and these are the voices that are being heard on policy. Bring the asteroid.
DougJ
My favorite Van Morrison song is And It Stoned Me.
I have to go with “Cypress Avenue” in the long form category and “Caravan” in the shorter form category.
arguingwithsignposts
@DougJ:
Did someone say Caravan?
General Winfield Stuck
@arguingwithsignposts:
Here, my VM fav/
Steeplejack
DVR Alert!
Turner Classic Movies is showing Black Legion (1937), with Humphrey Bogart and Dick Foran, at 10:00 a.m. EST tomorrow (Wednesday).
This movie was mentioned by several people in a thread over the weekend as one they’d like to see. So there you go.
DougJ
You know, whenever I hear “Caravan”, I wish I was a barefoot gypsy playing around a campfire, as dumb as that sounds.
Of Bugs and Books
@Corner Stone:
And here is what McChrystal is saying publically:
DougJ
Turner Classic Movies is showing Black Legion (1937), with Humphrey Bogart and Dick Foran, at 10:00 a.m. EST tomorrow (Wednesday).
Added it to my Google calendar.
arguingwithsignposts
@DougJ:
Don’t feel bad. I often wish I had a horn section to follow me around and punctuate my points. :)
jl
In the last post I overstated the case by saying that Obama did not mention Karzai or security forces. He did. But what I see of the mentions in his speech, and in the strategically placed ‘insider leaks’ in the press, they seem obligatory nods balanced with veiled and not so veiled threats that the central government will be bypassed if they do not shape up. So, I think my central point stands that this speech is not informative about vital elements of US strategy.
I can’t find the link right now, but I have read that Karzai has been operating in total jackass mode for the last year: alternating between trying to game US efforts to maximize his personal influence with little regard for overall welfare of Afghanistan, regional or world security interests, and then being gripped by paranoid fears that the US is plotting to abandon or replace him. I think Ahmed Rashid is one of the people reporting this.
If Karzai and his cronies are being total jackasses behind the scenes, then the kind of balanced references to support for Karzai/central government/warlord group versus support for work directly with tribes and other grassroots Afghan groups are not comforting at all. And if the US has to work with an untrustworthy Afghan central government, maybe Obama cannot be open about his real strategy and tactics.
Also, from a report recently featured on the Sic Semper Tyrannis blog, there are people in the US military with experience working in the Afghan boondocks who are recommending that the US and NATO forget the central government and work directly with grassroots and tribal groups in Afghanistan. Their idea is that any attempt to impose a strong nation-state central government will fail, so we should work with the local power centers that might be friendly with us.
So, I think the speech was not informative on important issues critical to the evaluating the strategy. But it also did not give the Afghan central government much reassurance that the US and NATO would be their sugar daddy even until the announced end date.
Top US commander: build Afghan forces
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091202/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan
Full Text Of Obama’s Remarks On Afghanistan
December 1, 2009, 8:02PM
http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/full-text-of-obamas-remarks-on-afghanistan.php?ref=fpblg
jl
I meant to type:
If Karzai and his cronies are being total jackasses behind the scenes, then the kind of balanced references to support for Karzai/central government/warlord group versus support for work directly with tribes and other grassroots Afghan groups are not comforting [to the Afghan central government] at all.
arguingwithsignposts
@jl:
jl, again, I’m going to have to disagree here. What did you want Obama to do? Seriously. This was a speech to the US populace, which had to be necessarily less than strategic. I’m sure he’s going to be doing a lot more talking with the Afghan and Pakistan governments. He DID put out a timeline, within his first term, for withdrawing the majority of US forces. That, IMHO, was a major step.
jl
@arguingwithsignposts: I am not criticzing Obama particularly. I just think that a lot of people are missing important issues that may determine whether the US surge will result in miserable disappointment, or may have a chance of working.
I am listening to some TV bloviators right now who are obsessing over the necessity of having Afghan being run by our own strongman and how can we have our own strongman unless we promise to support him forever with blood and treasure (which of course would effectively enslave ourselves to our precious Afghan central govenment strongman).
There are other avenues for rescuing the situation that I don’t see being discussed. But maybe this is old news to the B-J commentariate which is more informed than most, and I am bringing old news which is being misinterpreted as criticism.
My only point is that the speech did not inform us at all on issues vital to the probable success of this escalation.
tomvox1
@mai naem:
“Center Right” in the context of the Democratic party–certainly to the right of Edwards and probably of Hillary as well in many ways. He is a Centrist and certainly not a fire-breathing big “L” Liberal. If you were expecting the second coming of George McGovern, I’m not surprised you’re disappointed. But perhaps you were not paying close enough attention to his campaign rhetoric re: Afghanistan (if this is in fact the source of your profound disappointment.
JK
Caravan is my second favorite Van Morrison song. Speaking of Caravan, is anyone here a fan of Caravan, the 1960’s Canterbury scene band?
Re: Turner Classic Movies. God bless em. They almost make up for all of the garbage created by the cable news channels.
JK
@arguingwithsignposts:
That’s cool. How about the original lineup from Chicago? For me, it’s a Mariachi band.
Elie
I am commenting way after all of you are probably in bed.
I am very proud of him and our country after hearing his plans for Afghanistan. He put out as clear and resonant a justification for this as could be had. Uncertainty still remains in how this will play out, for sure. But I feel confident in his leadership and confident that he has a game plan I can believe in.
I am sure, as I have become familiar with our community here and elsewhere in the blog world, that he did and cannot please some x number of you. Hey, that’s life. Some dont want to be pleased by much of anything except their exact view of the decision they think he should have made given their own perspectives and proclivities.
But I am pleased, if such a word can describe this whole huge issue fraught with so much pain, sacrifice and uncertainty…I am pleased that a human being inhabits this great office and that he has a working brain and a wonderful brave soul and values. That is enough for me
NYT
tomvox
I read the Obama opinion piece you linked to. Its about how he will end the war in Iraq with just a mention of Afghanistan.
In fact Obama said he would send an additional 10,000 troops to Afghanistan, now he is talking 30,000. One of his promises to cut the deficit during the campaign was based on withdrawal of troops from Iraq, now the same number of troops are going to Afganistan.
And all this was during the campaign, BEFORE Karzai was discredited before the entire world with a shamelessly stolen election.
Obama is Bush-lite. Whether its handouts to Wall Street, endless war or rendition, there is just the appearance of change. When the chips are down he continues with Bush policies.
He is a sorry disappointment.
Phoebe
@DougJ: Daniel Day Lewis is Irish? I know he looks Irish and has played Irish guys. Is he, though?
gwangung
@NYT:
You know, I’m sorry, but this kind of comment is just like the usual tripe on the wingnut sites.
AMusement at the pearl clutching. Numbers change with more information (you tend to get more information when in office as opposed to running for one.
More amusement. He ALWAYS promised more troops for Afghanistan. Have you taken a look at the counter parties to the banks that are being bailed out (EVERYONE forgets that the majority are sovereign governments)? And how many systems the size of medium countries (let alone mega-crap that was left for him) turn on a dime. I think people were fooling themselves if they didn’t realize Obama couldn’t change that much even if he wanted to. And the things that he CAN change (de-emphasis on the unitary executive, trying for more bipartisanship) are being derided by the same people who says he’s like Bush.
Same partisan hypocrisy as the wingnuts.
Steeplejack
@Phoebe:
Born in London, holds British and Irish citizenship (the latter presumably because his father was born in Ireland).
NYT
gwangung
I don’t know where you get “pearl clutching” out of my comments. Perhaps you should check the meaning of the term.
I simply stated the facts – some people above have said that this is what Obama promised during the campaign – but the facts are otherwise.
Yes he promised more troops, but he promised 10,000 not 30,000. He said that the budget for troops in the field would be going down, not reapportioned between wars.
And yes the facts have changed since the campaign. Karzai held an election and he cheated. Obama rewards him with more troops.
As for the Wall Street banks I think you have those confused with AIG. AIG may have counterparties in Europe. Goldman Sachs, MS etc , not so much
Gian
listened on radio. let me be clear, he needs a different way to say let me be clear.
overall, another home run speech by a great public speaker.
policy wise? I flipped to some right wing radio hack who essentially fronted this analysis – if alexander the great and the soviets couldn’t pacify this place, we won’t either (unless we commit to genocide which we should but that’s not gonna happen because of all the weak kneed leftists who think mass murder is bad)
so we should cut bait, but Obama sees this as too dangerous politically – and then said hack went into the timeline right wing talking point – but until then, and he says he’s a vet who served in Iraq – he did make a decent overall point which was in the NYT today as well – a piece about building infrastructure by the soviets and how their puppet installed guy lasted three years after their pullout.
I think Obama tried to cut a new course – where he over-gives the war-hawks what they want but sets a timeline he knows thay cannot meet. Is that a lack of courage? good people will leave orphans because of that decision. if he didn’t make that call what other call could he have made? Pull out and go home today? Damn stright that’s the right policy call – but can he sell that back home
to me it’s time to get out, to leave small units there who are still hunting OBL and get the rest out
mai naem
@tomvox1: I wasn’t expecting him to be a liberal Dem. I wasn’t expecting a pullout from Afghanistan. What’s disappointed me is the healthcare stuff and the give aways to Wall Street. The bonuses to AIG that just couldn’t be cut because they were holy contracts but auto union contracts weren’t as holy and could just be ripped up. Absolute give aways to GS. Gitmo and Bagram. DADT which I don’t personally care about but I think it’s an absolute no brainer politically to repeal.
Dream On
Put Bactine on your cut – trash has a lot of bacteria. And thank God we don’t have socialized healthcare!
robertdsc-PowerBook & 27 titles
I don’t have anything to add other than I think this policy is a mistake. I’m just sad whereas two days ago I was upset.
Gravenstone
Apparently I’m the only one struck by the fact Cole felt obligated to start this post before properly tending to his injury. Priorties man, priorties.
tomvox1
@NYT:
Well, I suppose a President has different information on the necessary troops for what he is proposing to do than a candidate. Point is not the number but the intent, which regarding Afghanistan Obama was always pretty clear on.
As for the “Bush-lite” meme, this is intellectually dishonest sophistry of the worst sort:
http://www.esquire.com/the-side/richardson-report/obama-timeline-110309
tomvox1
@mai naem:
Can’t defend the Wall Street deals except in the context of the general panic that was prevailing during that moment in time. It is easy to Monday morning quarterback that sort of thing, though. Hopefully, he’s learned from it going forward.
DADT should be repealed by next year and Gitmo closed then, as well. Health care is still going on and Obama has basically put his presidency on the line for it.
I think maybe you expected instant transformation, which the American government is literally constitutionally unsuited for.
Let’s highlight the positive shall we and remember that this first term has only just begun:
http://www.esquire.com/the-side/richardson-report/obama-timeline-110309
And, oh yeah: Sotomayor, Sotomayor, Sotomayor. :)