I’m going to miss the speech because I have something else to do, but I do want those of you watching the speech to do a couple things as he speaks. Every time Obama says something like “We need to finish what we started” you need to yell out loud “BECAUSE BUSH AND CHENEY DIDN’T.”
It should go something like this:
Obama: I’m asking the Pentagon to send 34,000 additional troops to help secure the region
You: BECAUSE BUSH AND CHENEY DIDN’T.
You get the idea. Bonus points if you do this at a Young Republicans meeting or a 9/12 meet-up.
Next, I want to remind everyone that no analysis of tonight’s speech of Obama will be complete without getting the deep thoughts of Liz Cheney and reading Sarah Palin’s facebook page and twitter feed.
Every time a member of the progressive left is brought on to attack Obama from the left, remind yourself that this is a good thing and might move the Overton window back to the left a little.
And finally, if you see any of the following people on any network other than FOX being asked for their opinion, finish your drink:
Michael O’Hanlon
Dan Senor
Karl Rove
Joe Lieberman
President McCain
Frank Gaffney
Bill Kristol
Ann Coulter
Anyone from Red State
General Winfield Stuck
I want to blast Frank Gaffney out of my Clown Cannon. And then sleep like a baby.
And tomorrow go hiking with Lena on the Appalachian Trail.
jl
When should we punch the TV in the neck?
JenJen
I’ll take it a step further.. every time the President says “I have to do this,” it will remind me why I find it impossible to take anything some Bush-Cheney cheerleading asshat has to say seriously.
As much as I hate what he’s about to do, I hate the people who put us here more. And I do blame them. Not terribly charitable of me, but you’ll have that.
arguingwithsignposts
Is this a drinking game?
Beth in VA
That list of right-wing opinionators is frightening.
Mako
Every time Obama says something like “We need to finish what we started” you need to yell out loud “BECAUSE BUSH AND CHENEY DIDN’T.”
Meh. I’ll probably just see if wonkette live blogs it and read about it tomorrow. If not i have other things to do. Seriously, once youve seen a Ronald Reagan speech is there any need to watch any other so called president speak?
The Moar You Know
Fuck that. Make a big statement and empty your clip.
beltane
Great. I’m all out of wine, and I don’t do hard liquor on a weeknight, especially as I’m the only adult in a house full of kids. This is going to suck.
Jon H
Um, I’m getting a questionably-work-safe “Project Wonderful” ad here. “See my ex-girlfriend naked”.
srv
What?
I predict Fox will be out covering the protests today and Wed, but nobody else will.
MBSS
30,000 @ 30 billion
done.
Violet
Should we also look outside to see if pigs are flying?
MBSS
don’t do it during the speech, or afterward during the commericals, because both are unpatriotic.
John Cole
@Jon H: Should be gone now. I approved it without looking at it (as I do with every ad), but just went in and nuked it out of orbit.
Hob
I won’t be watching this in real time, but I’ll catch up with what everyone else here posts, and try to match their drinks.
Also, just on the general subject of how America can fulfill its special duty to the rest of the world by blowing more things up… I’m moved to quote this climactic bit from A Hall of Mirrors by Robert Stone, written in 1967. The speaker is a
Balloon Juice commenterdrunken liberal DJ who’s been hired as a professional radio wingnut because he’s so good at imitating them; he’s now addressing a stadium full of Birchers who are getting ready for a pogrom in New Orleans:***
“The American Way is innocence,” Rheinhardt announced. “In all situations we must and shall display an innocence so vast and awesome that the entire world will be reduced by it. American innocence shall rise in mighty clouds of vapor to the scent of heaven and confound the nations!
“Our legions, patriots, are not like those of the other fellow. We are not perverts with rotten brains as the English is. We are not a sordid little turd like the French. We are not nuts like the Kraut. We are not strutting maniacs like the gibroney and the greaseball!
“On the contrary our eyes are the clearest eyes looking out on the world today . . .
“No matter what they say, Americans, remember this–we’re OK! Who else can say that? No one. No one else can say–we’re OK. Only in America can a people say–we’re OK. I want you all to say it with me.
“We’re OK,” Rheinhardt shouted raising his arm to invite accompaniment. Someone in the stands was heard to fire a pistol.
“Americans,” Rheinhardt resumed, “our shoulders are broad and sweaty but our breath is sweet. When your American soldier fighting today drops a napalm bomb on a cluster of gibbering chinks, it’s a bomb with a heart. In the heart of that bomb, mysteriously but truly present, is a fat old lady on her way to see the World’s Fair. This lady is as innocent as she is fat and motherly. This lady is our nation’s strength . . .”
Dream On
I approved of it and looked at it.
The Moar You Know
Better than the “Ann Coulter- FREE!” ad I’m seeing right above it. Her Adam’s apple makes me quiver in fear.
Being that I’m the IT God, ad content means nothing to me. But that ad is tasteless enough/exposes enough that if a department head saw it on someone else’s machine, I might be forced into taking disciplinary action against that employee…or worse.
General Winfield Stuck
@John Cole:
Poor Lena. Hope she had her spacesuit on.
Jesse
@John Cole: Damn.
The Moar You Know
@John Cole: Thanks, JC.
PTirebiter
CBS evening news just regurgitated Politico’s Obama’s deadly 7 deadly sins, replete with John Harris, a reference to Spock and the “Amateur Hour” in China meme.
God weeps.
General Winfield Stuck
God don’t need ratings.
The Dangerman
@Jesse:
Ditto. I always miss the NSFW stuff.
Well, other than reading about Cheney.
valdivia
@PTirebiter:
ugh. so they had Harris on? there was any pushback at all that he invented this?
freelancer
@PTirebiter:
as long as they don’t superimpose POTUS into this scene…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52_0tqkfIDo
arguingwithsignposts
@PTirebiter:
Who the fuck decided Politico was worthy of consideration? Seriously, these are not journalists. They are pearl-clutching Drudge-bait trolls who somehow managed to swindle someone out of enough money to fund this shite organization.
The funders should be found and subjected to hours upon hours of Glenn Beck radio until their ears bleed.
Mia Malkan
Just heard on Nightly News that Dr McCdr’my will be on MTP this week to dissect this.
/ mia
Cat Lady
@PTirebiter:
CBS Evening News is stuff old white shut-ins like. I haven’t watched an evening news show in years, and I’m not young, so if you think anyone other than old white people are going to be persuaded by any of that crap, you’re thankfully wrong. The kids, and all of the other folks out there that aren’t old white shut ins, are alright.
Just Some Fuckhead
Not sure what’s goin on with Man Coulter but according to the ads in the Balloon-Juice sidebar, her ex-boyfriend put up some nekkid pictures of her on a website.
MBSS
@Just Some Fuckhead:
burn them with fire.
Notorious P.A.T.
*that we don’t have
WereBear
@arguingwithsignposts: Unless the funders already have listened to hours of right wing talk radio.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Would we be better off had Pervez Musharraf remained President of Pakistan and in charge of the army?
MBSS
@Notorious P.A.T.:
no worries, P.A.T.
ben nelson’s hair has come up with a genius war bonds plan.
Ash Can
And then take a drink of…
Aw, skip it. I’m tipsy just thinking about it.
ellaesther
BUT I DON’T DRINK!!
Oh, hey, hold on, maybe that’s been the problem all this time…!
On a more serious note, I’m not sure why I feel so strongly that I need to watch this one, and live, no less. We normally don’t turn the television on before both kids are upstairs (and that’s usually 8:45 CST) but tonight, I’ll be there from the start — and if the kids join me/us, well, this is their country. They’ll be studying the outcome of today’s decision when they get to high school in 4 and 8 years, so they might as well see the beginning.
It just feels like I need to be a witness more than I have been. And I think I’m going to watch that Green Berets documentary that I just heard about on NPR for the same reason.
MBSS
pashtuns, tajiks, it’s all so complimicated. let’s just blow up all dem raghead mooslims, lest their minarets get anywhere close to us. just ask the swiss. they just banned that, and instituted a new law which forbids mooslims from eating any of their delicious white chocolate.
Dream On
I will watch it live as well, as I try to make a habit of watching war announcemens and escalations as they begin, with a live speech on TV. Lately I’ve gotten some practice!
If the radio announced “the Nazis have invaded Poland”, you’d tune in to listen, surely?
JK
People I would actually want to see on tv commenting about Obama’s speech:
Thomas Frank, Matt Taibbi, Joe Conason, Joan Walsh, David Sirotta, Tom Ricks, Gwynne Dyer, Michael Tomasky, Laura Flanders, Amy Goodman, Glenn Greenwald, Dan Fromkin, Daniel Ellsberg, and anyone from the Center for Defense Information.
Dreggas
@John Cole:
please email me the url though :D
freelancer
@JK:
Don’t forget Andrew Bacevich.
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/23946
Totally beats up David Frum here.
Midnight Marauder
@JK:
The day this happens is the day the Mayans were right.
JK
@PTirebiter: @arguingwithsignposts:
Politico is a super-sized, putrid, steaming pile of excrement and Messrs John Harris and Jim VandeHei are rapidly becoming 2 of the most obnoxious tools among the Washington Press Corps.
ellaesther
May I humbly suggest, by the way, that insulting Ann Coulter by calling her a man is… beneath anyone, really.
It’s no different, or any more relevant, than the right wing harping on Nancy Pelosi’s looks.
There are so many good reasons to mock Ann Coulter, but where she falls on the looks-like-a-lady spectrum is not one of them.
/ends rant
Notorious P.A.T.
Haha )
Thadeus Horne
@General Winfield Stuck: He needs a wake up call, General.
+4 and grateful.
John O
3 more years?
Does anyone besides me think bad of themselves for even bothering to watch this?
I realize there is no right answer to this one (Afghanistan, strategically AND politically), so I suppose I’m compelled to watch a man make his case.
I read blogs, after all.
Dreggas
@ellaesther:
is it ok to say she looks like she was used as the pivot point for a bull-dozer?
JK
@freelancer:
Agreed on Bacevich
@Midnight Marauder:
This is my favorite dream after the one about seeing the Beatles play a 4 hour concert at Madison Square Garden.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
What I want to hear from Obama is how this affects me, and other cattle. What about the shipments of meat to the war zone? Is there a freshness date in our future, a date after which the meat must be either frozen, or cooked?
Will there be cuts? If so, which cuts? Sirloins? Filets? Roasts?
These are the things that are important to me.
John O
I’m actually watching someone make a little sense on the issue on CNN.
John O +40?
Rey
glass of Merlot? check
CNN muted until the POTUS speaks? check
sticking pins in my Dick and Liz Cheney dolls? double check
pics of Tunch? ummmm……
Dream On
Perhaps this would be a better (Lovecraft description)
“With the upheaval of new land in the South Pacific tremendous events began…. Another race–a land race of beings shaped like octopi and probably corresponding to the fabulous pre-human spawn of Coulter–soon began filtering down from cosmic infinity and precipitated a monstrous war which for a time drove the Old Ones wholly back to the sea…. Later peace was made, and the new lands were given to the Coulter spawn whilst the Old Ones held the sea and the older lands…. [T]he antarctic remained the centre of the Old Ones’ civilization, and all the discoverable cities built there by the Coulter spawn were blotted out. Then suddenly the lands of the Pacific sank again, taking with them the frightful stone city of R’lyeh and all the cosmic octopi, so that the Old Ones were once again supreme on the planet….”
valdivia
@John O:
who would that be? sounds suspicious!
arguingwithsignposts
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
Me. Me. Me.
It’s all about you.
Just Some Fuckhead
I can’t tell President Obama how to run his stupid wars but I know that MIssion Accomplished banners are very popular, as are military costumes, frequent captures of number three men and clever names for military tactics, like “The Surge”.
Napoleon
There is no way I can watch. It will just raise my blood pressure.
Off to put the copy of Das Boot I got from Netflix in the DVD player.
Midnight Marauder
@John O:
That sounds about standard. Anything beyond that is entering the danger zone.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@arguingwithsignposts:
No. It’s all about moo.
John O
@valdivia:
LOL.
Someone nobody including me knows, of course. Got the sense it was a person who had actually spent a lot of time in Afghanistan or something stupid and useless like that.
MM, good edit.
Little Dreamer
@John O:
Dude, the speech hasn’t even started yet.
Just Some Fuckhead
@ellaesther: Yawn.
Dreggas
@John O:
I’d be watching it if I could. I wouldn’t think bad of myself for doing so. Hell I admit it, one of the reasons i supported Obama was because he said he would re-focus on providing troops for Afghanistan to finish the job. I am interested to see how he plans to use those troops and what they have decided the “job” is.
I also highly recommend this diary on DKos
Max
I can’t wait until Uncle Pat tells me how to feel about the speech.
I wish MSNBC would pitch him overboard.
South of I-10
Damn, I’m going to need more wine. I think I will skip the speech and talking heads and just read about it here. It has been a shitty day and I am enjoying watching Rudolph with little South.
jl
off topic, but this concerns the decline of the American Empire, so probably important enough to disrupt the pre-emptive Obama hectoring. Alert the wingnuts, so they can rage.
The Australian commies are now building the largest homes. US hegemony is lost. See how gummint run health care has wrecked their economy?
Study: Australians Have the World’s Biggest Homes
Tuesday, December 1, 2009
http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/article/108274/study-australians-have-the-worlds-biggest-homes
ellaesther
@Just Some Fuckhead: Pie?
Sure, I’d love some!
valdivia
@John O:
Thanks John O, you have now put the world into balance once again by making clear it was someone no one knows and had unserious rational tendencies.
MikeJ
July 2011 is three years away?
That’s actually about as fast as the military can do anything that doesn’t end up with somebody dead. Try upgrading database software for them sometime.
John O
Shorter CNN:
The President could pull down his pants, shit actual golden eggs on camera, take a stroll across the Potomac, all live, then get Kim J IL and whoever is running Iran to bow down and blow him on pay per view AND free TV (don’t underestimate the moron factor) and the POTUS would still be politically disadvantaged.
Our liberal media has a gift.
arguingwithsignposts
Hey, who’s streaming the speech? MSNBC doesn’t seem to be doing it.
JK
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
I just had dinner, but after clicking on your screen name I could really go for a Porterhouse steak right about now.
Just Some Fuckhead
@ellaesther: Like I fucking care if you pie me?? lol
You clearly haven’t been paying attention.
Elizabelle
Going to catch the address on PBS. Hotel TV doesn’t have C-Span (does have Fox News; I am grateful beyond words for PBS).
Trusting PBS will be a Liz Cheney free zone, because I don’t want to see or hear about her again in my life. Evah.
South: caught The Grinch on TV last night. They do rush the season.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@JK:
Wait until you see my url now. You will be drooling for an hour.
John O
@valdivia:
Whether you meant that to be condescending or not, it was very funny, and most appreciated.
JK
@Max:
Pat Buchannan deserves to be placed in a time machine and and sent back to Hitler’s last remaining minutes in his bunker.
Max
@JK: Yes, watching him now, apparently, Obama’s heart isn’t in this war like W’s was and that is going to lower troop morals.
Pat is a fucker.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
Okay, what uh is this uh thing that uh Wolf uh Blitzer has for the “uh” spacer in his uh speech, uh, pattern uh?
He sounds like he is going to the bathroom.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
How much syrup do you have to pour over yourself in order to become as maudlin as David Gergen?
John O
Some things are not all that complicated for me.
I don’t think Obama likes to lie to people, in general. Thus the relentlessly compromising approach to politics.
I think he has more knowledge on the subject than I do. I trust his judgement, knowing there is no way out of this one. The proverbial “damned if you do…”
I’ll measure him on what he gets done relative to what he tells me about how and why.
JK
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
Hot damn. Do you deliver?
By any chance, do you belong to the National Cattlemen’s Beef Association?
Max
McCrystal’s Statement on the Af/Pak strategy:
http://www.isaf.nato.int/en/article/news/statement-of-general-stanley-mcchrystal.html
SiubhanDuinne
@beltane 6:34 pm
You’re not real good at strategic planning, are you?
/SD opening a large new bottle of wine and settling in for the fun
MBSS
How much syrup do you have to pour over yourself in order to become as
maudlinsexy as David Gergen?fix’t
valdivia
@John O:
no condescension at all! I was snarking and grateful for your info. I do not watch CNN so many thanks for watching so I want have to. :-)
John O
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
I used to think Gergen was a fair player, and he still might be, given that he also knows a lot more detail than I do, but his performance right now is making think I should open a vein.
I think most Americans intuitively realize that yes, they could be killed in a terrorist attack, just as they realize they could be killed in a plane crash or car wreck.
Enjoy our transitional times.
Corner Stone
@JK:
Only if you bring the straight lines.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
Who taught these pundits that uh-uh-uh-phony stuttering makes people sound more intelligent or thoughtful than they really are?
Is that something that a cow like myself could uh-uh-uh-learn?
Debbie(aussie)
When is it on? I might just have to go to the lounge (in my enormous house) and watch.
Elizabelle
@PTirebiter:
Truly disturbing that CBS ran with those dreadful Politico talking points.
Maybe a letter to Bob Schieffer. I don’t think that would have happened during his watch during the interregnum.
JK
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
I just read that he’s changed his name to Wolf Full of Shitzer.
John O
@valdivia:
I figured, V.
Thanks, though.
Max
@Debbie(aussie): 8pm eastern. 2 minutes or so.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
I’ll let Little Dreamer answer that one …
Corner Stone
I wish there were a way to make prop bets on this speech.
Debbie(aussie)
@Max: Thanks Max
BR
Why is there muzak playing on the whitehouse live feed of this speech?
You’d think they’d avoid that for such an event…
Corner Stone
@AngusTheGodOfMeat: I don’t think she’s going to be too happy when she sees you have called her a cow.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@JK:
I was thinking Wolf Bullshitzer, but we are on the same track ….’
Little Dreamer
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
Re:
@ JK:
He does deliver, but I have an exclusive contract.
Sorry, I got here first.
;)
arguingwithsignposts
OK, found the CNN feed. That intro sucked.
John O
Promise low, deliver high.
If Obama’s got a good idea of where bin Laden and Omar are, it’s a reasonable bet to escalate if you’ve convinced Pakistan you’ll control India and get the eff out the region if they cough up OBL and the Mullah, in my judgement.
Ain’t no great decisions when you’re POTUS. 20-50% of your constituents are going to hate everything you do. Thanks, Corporate Media!
arguingwithsignposts
@Little Dreamer:
I think that’s a little TMI.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
It’s on!@Corner Stone:
I was thinking cute little heifer, really ….
I SWEAR.
Just Some Fuckhead
Oh god, I just remembered how much I missed not having 9/11 invoked for everything we wanted to do.
Just Some Fuckhead
I’m gonna chug a 40 on “They hate us for our freedoms.”
JK
@Corner Stone:
Hey Corner Stone,
Bring out the peppers and sausage.
Can o’ peas my ass! That’s a Ritz cracker and chopped liver.
h/t Frank Pentangeli
arguingwithsignposts
Can I just say that I’m so happy to have a grown up as president for a change.
John O
Goddammit, he’s making a good case.
I think it’s a bad idea, but I get what Obama is trying to say.
He played a lot of hoops in Chicago, and cut his teeth on Chicago politics. He knows how to step on a neck.
And make a case.
Little Dreamer
@Corner Stone:
Nah! Really, he is constantly telling me I’m the most beautiful woman in the world (I think he needs to check his eyeglass prescription personally, but, so long as he keeps saying it, I can’t really be disappointed).
Just Some Fuckhead
@Little Dreamer: He sez the same to me, hon.
JK
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
Wolf Blitzer is a punk who seems to be auditioning for Fox News with his increasing on air bias.
scbarr
I would give anything for an honest to dog LIBERAL president. Obama ain’t it. Might be time to think about moving to Europe.
Again.
John O
@arguingwithsignposts:
No shit.
The test for the American public in 2012 is going to be if they understand that or not. If we don’t, we’re done.
I’ve been telling my conservative pals since early ’05 that it would take at least a decade from our re-election of Bush The Lesser to repair the damage.
Anya
When will Track Palin write an open letter to the president? I mean why not, Megan McCain did and Liz Cheney is everywhere. I think this world needs another spawn of wingnut’s input.
arguingwithsignposts
Way to go Obama, hit back on that “dithering” bullshit!
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Moo?
arguingwithsignposts
18 months, and the troops begin to come home. That’s a pretty quick timeline.
arguingwithsignposts
Fuck George W. Bush and the fuckers who put Obama in this position. Just sayin’.
Debbie(aussie)
How is US security at stake. BS the us was not attaked from Afghanistan.
valdivia
@arguingwithsignposts:
seconded.
I like his serious, somber, deliberative argument.
JK
@Anya:
Track Palin, Megan McCain, and Liz Cheney are starring in a new reality show called Real Asswipes of Republican County
AngusTheGodOfMeat
A president who can talk seriously without smirking.
God damn, that’s a good thing.
gwangung
@arguingwithsignposts:
Something EVERYONE around here will agree with.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@arguingwithsignposts:
A.Fucking.Men.
John O
I think the President got it about right, at least so far, and while I don’t agree with the strategy, I’ll accept he has a better view of it all than I do.
He didn’t maintain Bush’s surveillance programs because he loved spying on us. And though I hate it to the core of my being, I will not go so far as to say I wouldn’t make the same call knowing what Obama does.
JK
@arguingwithsignposts:
Fuck Dick Cheney and John McCain too.
John O
I’m fine with this, intellectually, if not emotionally. It’s as good a plan as any.
And I think he’ll hold on to the idea.
arguingwithsignposts
@JK:
Well, they’re included in “the fuckers” in my original statement, obviously. I don’t have enough pixels to list all the asswipe douchebag fuckers who deserve to be spending time in Leavenworth for this grand fuckup.
gwangung
@JK: Oops. Two more things we all agree on.
Max
I appreciate how he speaks to us like grown-ups. I also appreciate that every word isn’t “freedom” or “democracy”.
I believe this wasn’t an easy decision for him and I continue to support him.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
Is it just me, or I am hearing an overtone of “I got your dithering right here, you fat loudmouth motherfucker” in between the lines of this speech?
MBSS
wolf blitzer is just his war porn name.
his real name is alfred leibovitz
Dream On
This is the same plan as my winning the lottery. I will go out and try harder to pick a winning lottery ticket.
I’m 35 – how come I remember Vietnam better than Obama?
Debbie(aussie)
Over 8 years and not an occupier? who is he kidding?
arguingwithsignposts
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
I hope it’s not just you.
Dream On
I hope he throws the “terror from a clear blue sky” knuckle-curve. This is a better-executed version of a Bush speech.
valdivia
@Max:
but he does not say Freedom etc only because he does not love america!
/wingnut.
John O–I am in a total mind meld with you, just saying.
John O
He’s pretty good. I like him talking to the Afghans eye-to-eye.
And then, “THIRD!” As in, “move on.”
Too bad he doesn’t think government works like Cheney thinks it should, Executive King and all. We’d be a lot further along.
arguingwithsignposts
@Dream On: @Debbie(aussie):
Your concern is duly noted.
Just Some Fuckhead
An Open Letter to President Obama from the Balloon Juice Community:
Dear Sir. No, say “Mr. President.” No, call him by his full name including “Hussein”, hehe. No, it’s proper to call him “Mr. President”, here’s a wikipedia link. No, do it my way, here’s twenty-seven links. /end rant FYWP! No, you don’t need to address it at all, you already specified who it was addressed to in the title. I have serious reservations about the title. Why don’t we back up and just make sure we’re all on-board with the title? What the hell is wrong with the title? Christ in a wheelchair! Cheney in a wheelchair, lolz. Okay, Dear Mr. President Barack Obama Hussein. It seems stilted now. Does “Barack” have one “r” or two? It should just be “Dear Mr. President”. No, we don’t even need the fucking salutation, morans. You spelled “moran” wrong. Someone isn’t aware of all internet traditions, I see. Nevermind, ;President Obama.
MikeJ
@AngusTheGodOfMeat: The people that it’s aimed at won’t hear it though. Chuck Todd would cry and be too distraught to go on the air if he ever entertained the notion that anyone could be mean to him. So it simply won’t exist.
arguingwithsignposts
“long after the guns have fallen silent.” There’s some poetry there.
arguingwithsignposts
@Just Some Fuckhead:
You forgot “where’s Tunch!?”
JK
@arguingwithsignposts:
Yes, you could fill up a concert hall with these fuckers.
I wish someone would put duct tape over the mouths of Dick Cheney and John McCain.
Dream On
We were “viciously attacked” from Saudi Arabia.
gwangung
@Just Some Fuckhead: Damn. That was some major class Funny. And I speak as a professional (well, at least, people pay me to make them laugh).
Pigs & Spiders
@Just Some Fuckhead: You win the thread.
arguingwithsignposts
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Oh, and “I can haz edit function, plz?”
General Winfield Stuck
Troops will start coming home in 2011, Bloody Bill is choking on his bib. Pretty decent baby split by Obama. with an Ok Afghan.,. get your shit together, or not. It’s on you in about 18 months. Seems reasonable to me. No permanent war in that sand box.
valdivia
the line about not going beyond what we need to protect ourselves, is to stay in Afghanistan forever, was great.
MikeJ
Stanley Mac sez:
arguingwithsignposts
Wait, he’s talking about *costs* for the war? Who is this president? Where did the blank check “freedom” “democracy” president go?
FYGWB! and FYDC!
John O
Right on!
Finally, a POTUS saying that we can be exceptional, if we maintain our own house and set an example.
You know, like we used to.
Dream On
“Well-beyond” = Iran.
All war and all the time.
JK
@gwangung:
Like Woody Allen’s voiceover narration in the opening scene from Manhattan.
Corner Stone
Predator Drones Bitchez!
Fencedude
Anyone else noticing the NBC Cameramen picking out the sleeping people in the audience?
AngusTheGodOfMeat
Can a cow love a man? I don’t know, but I just feel like I love this guy.
arguingwithsignposts
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
Damn you, Barack Obama.
I think that’s appropriate for this moment.
Dream On
This is the comedy section.
JK
Who’ll be the first pundit to label Obama’s speech as boring and lacking in passion?
Chris Matthews, Bill O’Reilly, Sean Hannity…
arguingwithsignposts
@Dream On:
You don’t come here often, do you?
McGeorge Bundy
Sad to say Sully in his liveblog is making better points than the President.
John O
I am consistently impressed too, and it embarrasses me, politically speaking.
I just like a person who can make the case for what they’re doing where I don’t think they’re bugfuck insane.
Kudos to our new POTUS.
JK
@Corner Stone:
Perfect name for a punk band.
General Winfield Stuck
The Cadets clapped. Malkin crapped.
MBSS
@JK:
not tweety. i distinctly saw a chill running up his leg.
arguingwithsignposts
@McGeorge Bundy:
Yeah. I’m glad we voted for sully to lead us. /snark
MikeJ
If they started chanting “yes we can!” she’d keel over.
Debbie(aussie)
Did he just say ‘might makes right” Oh my gawd
Corner Stone
Either every one of those kids is thinking about how early they have to get up tomorrow, or they’re wondering how many of their friends will be dying over the next couple years.
Cause they are just not that into it.
Elizabelle
I love his call for unity and his takedown of cheap cynicism.
Terrific speech. I hope the cadets respect him for being less willing to burn their lives for ideology.
valdivia
@John O:
with you. I liked the end of the speech a lot.
McGeorge Bundy
@arguingwithsignposts: That’s why it’s sad.
Just Some Fuckhead
Yeah, that’s the most eloquent plea for more war we’ve seen in at least eight years.
Adam Collyer
@Debbie(aussie):
Uh, pretty sure he said “right makes might.” But I could be wrong.
arguingwithsignposts
@JK:
Who’ll be the first right-wing nutbag to say how much Obama hates the troops.
… oh, wait.
MobiusKlein
God, I hate John McCain
can’t end a talk without dissing the pres.
Thadeus Horne
@Cat Lady: Last June, I lost all my local TV stations (100 mi.), as a result of the conversion to digital.
I tried all the conversion boxes and fancy antennas- to no avail. After the conversion was complete, I was told that certain areas were not going to receive a signal. Guess what? I was in one of those areas (remote, mountainous, no cable access). So, my TV was gone.
Now, I had thought in advance that this might be the case, so I invested in a satellite dish and a computer and tried to enter the internet world. I did that in Feb., 2009. In the 4 months between when I intertubed it and when I lost my TV,I found I was relying more on cyberspace than on MSM television news.
Point is,I don’t miss network news. And I never had cable. I had the option of TV off my dish, but I declined that extra charge. Why? Because I was tired of listening to the vapid creatures that inhabit network news. PBS was tolerable, but that was gone, too.
I’m an old guy and I remember when the nightly news was not a for profit endeavor. I could reasonably expect that the “guy”( Cronkite, Huntley, Brinkley, etc.) who was presenting the news was actually presenting the news. He didn’t have a goddamned agenda.
All these punk “journalists” now have a Jones to feed and a nut to bust. They don’t give a damn what they say or what they write as long as someone signs the paycheck.
demkat620
@Debbie(aussie): No, he said right makes might
SiubhanDuinne
I love that we have a grownup president. Even more, I love that we have a president who treats his fellow citizens like grownups. He appeals to — dare I say — our, and his own, better angels without getting all Jeebusy about it. He addresses what human beings can and should be. I hate that one more soldier has to go to Afghanistan and I hate that the ones who are there now have to stay one more day — but goddamn, I don’t see how he could have made any other decision.
Time for the wingnuts to start ripping everything apart.
TR
@Debbie(aussie):
No. No, he did not.
arguingwithsignposts
@McGeorge Bundy:
Fuck that. Get back to me when Sully has ever lead anything other than Even-the-liberal-New-Republic. Sully is a wanker, always has been a wanker, and until he gets his head on straight, he can go fuck himself.
jwb
@MobiusKlein: Only the village cares at all what McCain thinks. Even the wingnuts don’t respect him.
TR
Closing graf:
America – we are passing through a time of great trial. And the message that we send in the midst of these storms must be clear: that our cause is just, our resolve unwavering. We will go forward with the confidence that right makes might, and with the commitment to forge an America that is safer, a world that is more secure, and a future that represents not the deepest of fears but the highest of hopes. Thank you, God Bless you, God Bless our troops, and may God Bless the United States of America.
Little Dreamer
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Yeah, maybe, but not in person. ;)
General Winfield Stuck
Reckon Tweety did not get off.
McGeorge Bundy
@arguingwithsignposts: I think Sully is generally an idiot, which is why I find it so upsetting that he’s making better points tonight than the President.
JK
@MobiusKlein:
God willing, McCain will burn in Hell for eternity for inflicting Sarah “Shit for Brains” Palin on the country.
J.W. Hamner
I’ve been on some arbitrary dates, and don’t support them any more than John McCain.
Paula
Considering that our bed was made in Afghanistan long before the invasion of Baghdad, I’m finding it really hard to react to the escalation with anything but frustrated resignation.
And I mean for fuck’s sake, people who protested the Iraq invasion in 2003 thought Afghanistan was the “worthwhile” war. Many on the “left” thought that it was a good idea for our military and/or the CIA to “focus on Bin Laden”. In Sep. 2001, Rep Barbara Lee of Oakland, CA was the only one of both houses of Congress who voted against the authorization of troops in Afghanistan. (Which means that even people like Kucinich and McKinney voted yes.) The American people, of course, weren’t much better. Obama is paying the bill on the collective revenge mission that began before he even took national office. I’m conflicted about whether the United States can or should provide the Afghan people w/ security, but I do know that we are obligated to do whatever we can to stabilize their country after we went stomping around in it without an articulated exit strategy and with commitment sapped by Iraq.
I don’t think the real, long-term solution is military, but it’s not a surprise that that is currently the only option taken seriously. The military industrial complex lives and must be fed.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
Great speech. Which is why I figure the righties will try even hard to bash the hell out of it.
MikeJ
@TR: How dare you use liberal “facts”. Fuckwit had a narrative to peddle and now you’ve gone and screwed it up.
John O
Live-blogging CNN:
Campbell Brown: But what happens if the future turns out different?
Wolfie: Couldn’t see it very good. Except for Fayateville.
OK, gonna have to check out soon due to mental health reasons.
Elizabelle
@SiubhanDuinne:
well said.
The hell with the wingnuts. Tonight anyway. They are so outclassed.
arguingwithsignposts
Just for the record, they’re playing all those military tunes while Barack Hussein Obama is shaking hands as the Commander-in-Chief. Suck on that, RW bitchez!
donovong
Anybody else hear the reference to no more “muddling through”? Take THAT, President McCain!!
General Winfield Stuck
@Paula:
Yea, know what your mean. A box of chocolates would have a lot cheaper to send.
Corner Stone
Come on cold front weather!
Ash
Tweety: “I’m only going by what Dick Cheney is saying.”
KILL YOURSELF CHRIS MATTHEWS.
Just Some Fuckhead
Tweety called Cheney a “tailgunner”. More like a facegunner, Chrissy. Teehee.
auntieeminaz
@JK: Chris Matthews. “No poetry.” WTF does that mean?
SiubhanDuinne
Honest to christ, is EVERYTHING for tweety just about what it means politically/electorally for Obama? Is he even capable for ONE SECOND of comprehending a slightly bigger picture?
BettyPageIsaBlonde
@Debbie(aussie):
No, that was just your ears getting all fucked up. It was “right makes might.” Really. I was watching. I heard it.
Jeebus.
Tweety has lost his mind. Fuck the villagers. He’s going with Dick Cheney (he literally just said that).
Maybe it’s just me and my liberal “I was in NYC when 9/11 happened and holy fuck am I tired of not going after those assnuts who did it for the last 8 fucking years” thing, but I’m okay with this whole idea.
Whatever. I’m a New Yorker. The rest of the country very long ago temporarily loved us.
jwb
@auntieeminaz: If Tweety is only complaining about a lack of poetry, we should count ourselves lucky.
McGeorge Bundy
@SiubhanDuinne: Yes; no.
PTirebiter
@Cat Lady: Sure I’m an old white shut-in, but I was only watching while I waited for the eight-ball and hooker to be delivered. I swear I wasn’t enjoying it.
Besides, I wasn’t concerned about the program’s influence, I was just commenting on the tenacity and pervasiveness of the village circle jerk.
@General Winfield Stuck- True enough, but I hear s/he’s competitive by nature.
@valdivia- No, it wasn’t an interview. It was a prepackaged segment and Harris was in a clip shot against a Politico backdrop.
Ash
@BettyPageIsaBlonde: Nah dude, we never loved you, just your street vendor pretzels.
Not even your pizza is worth it.
General Winfield Stuck
Fucking Tweety. In full wanker mode. Obama was in the presence of “the enemy” at West Point”. Where Paul Wolfowitz was loved. gezzus christ.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@SiubhanDuinne:
No.
SATSQ 9:21
John O
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I maintain that Dick Cheney is probably the most prominent complete physical coward there is on the planet.
I don’t care at all what he says, and 20 years ago, I would have.
auntieeminaz
Chris Matthews: Obama went to the “enemy camp.” What an asshole! “No warmth in the crowd.” He got a fucking standing ovation!
JK
@Ash: @auntieeminaz:
Chris Matthews wants to have sex with Cheney and McCain.
srv
You cannot bring freedom to Afghans via a COIN campaign in 18 months. Particularly if the pet theory your strategerists are pushing is bypassing the Afghan government and building regional units strong enough to stand up to warlords. You’re starting from scratch.
Make the case to get the fuck in and stay there to do a real COIN effort, or get the fuck out. I could at least respect the former, even if it will be a failure. But this is insane – it won’t work and makes it look like a politically expedient choice.
donovong
FWIW, after the speech, the poll on the front page of Kos is in support of the plan by a significant margin. So much for “losing the base.”
arguingwithsignposts
@auntieeminaz:
Hey, Tweety: blow me. Obama has more respect for the troops in his right thumbnail than Penis Cheney or George W. Bush has in their entire corpses combined!
amen. Tweety has to be just playing the contrarian card.
eemom
he absolutely said RIGHT makes MIGHT, which was another impressive turn of phrase.
Isn’t it bedtime in Australia, or something?
It was a good speech, and he looked very far from happy giving it. An air of grim determination, I would say. Like he, you know, appreciates the seriousness of what he’s doing, and is honestly doing what he thinks is best — not what he would like to do.
I would like to suggest that all Obama bashers fuck off for the evening.
Ash
@General Winfield Stuck:
Seriously, that fucktard seems to buy into the idea that the entire military must hate Obama cause he’s not Wolfowitz/Rumsfeld.
auntieeminaz
@Adam Collyer: No, you are right.
Elizabelle
I would really recommend turning Tweety off. You will never get the time spent listening to him back. And to what end?
They’re not the sizzle to the steak, or the special sauce.
They’re the pan.
BettyPageIsaBlonde
@Ash:
That’s cool, Ash. You’re the numbnut we gnosh about over coffee in our liberal utopian nightmare. ;)
donovong
@srv: Don’t you think that if you were such an expert in COIN, you would be advising the President, instead of commenting on a blog?
arguingwithsignposts
@donovong:
ooh, snap!
GambitRF
McCain was on CBS right afterward getting the “arbitrary date for withdrawal!!” talking points going.
jl
My opinion is that this was a nicely done speech: matter of fact, realistic and detrmined, inspiring, moving, high-minded, empathetic and understanding, in turn, as appropriate.
But, it was hopelessly vague and uninformative on whether the policy he has chosen will be an expensive and tragic failure, or has a chance of half-way working.
In terms of the comment I made on a post yesterday, whether he has chosen item 1) or item 2) from the menu below is unclear.
Obama made no mention of Kabul, Karzai, Afghan national army, police force, building strong (also corrupt, bogus and ubeloved) central government. So maybe he has picked item 2 below.
But, who knows?
I think it is a good sign that Obama thinks Pakistan and Afghan problems are inseperable, but speech was also uninformative about his approach.
I think any professional pundit bloviating about ‘timelines’ and lack of promises of endless support for Afghan people (that is, money and gunes for central government thugs), is trivia.
But, I am no pundit. What do I know?
Below is adapted from my comment last night:
Pat Lang’s Sic Semper Tyrannis blog has some good commentary on Afghanistan
http://turcopolier.typepad.com….._tyrannis/
It is interesting to compare and contrast the links to, and commentary on, these two recent posts:
1) The Kagan/McChrystal Strategy
(pour in troops to build up string central Afghan nation-state government, and shoot the troublesome Afghan plebs who do not go along)
2) Iraq, Afghanistan and the decisions facing Barack Obama
(bypass central government and concentrate on building relationships with friendly tribes to build a base of local grassroots support, let course of Afghan central government take care of itself).
Little Dreamer
@BettyPageIsaBlonde:
Tweety’s metronome is tacking to the right today (wait three days, it will come back again).
Ash
@BettyPageIsaBlonde: Pshaw, I used to hang out in coffee shops in Cambridge with smartypants Harvard children. You will NEVER get more liberal utopian than that!
Well, ok, you still have the pretzels. You win.
arguingwithsignposts
@GambitRF:
I wonder what it was like in past wartimes. Did we always have the contrarian bullshit artists on teevee for “balance”?
Shawn in ShowMe
@srv
In the corner of my eye I can see Angus with his finger on the trigger . . .
srv
Jesus Wept.
What FDChief said.
Paula
@ Stuck
You know what was a real good suggestion that one of my professors discussed in the immediate aftermath? Make it an an international war crime. The “war on terror” would still exist on a global level, but we didn’t have to add on hundreds of thousands of troops and billions in battlefield tech on top of our torturing prisons and covert ops. No one ever learns the lesson “Never get involved in a land war in Asia”.
Little Dreamer
@jl:
Uh, yeah, because anytime I hear someone say “some people think Afghanistan is another Vietnam”… and go on to recount how he believes that Afghanistan can be stabilized, I think he’s being really fucking vague!
Huh?
JK
@Elizabelle:
I recommend trading Chris Matthews to Somali pirates in exchange for a few good draft picks.
arguingwithsignposts
@jl:
You must have been listening to a different speech, because I heard him mention Karzai by name, and also strengthening Afghan armed forces. And fighting corruption.
Would you like quotations, because I can do some of teh Google for you?
General Winfield Stuck
@srv:
Didn’t hear all of the speech, so might of missed that about doing COIN as a primary mission. What I did hear was at least breaking Taliban momentum, and building up Afghan army forces with more intense training, and then it will be up to them. He mentioned working with good local governments and expecting bad ones to be accountable.
But my take away overall, was that our mission will be limited to setting the stage to the extent possible for the Afghans to take over their own country and for us to leave.
John O
Donna Brazille, did you think it was [paraphrasing, but only slightly] a “rational” case the POTUS made?
Nah, all emotion, anyone could see it.
Shorter Mary Matalin: He’s still doing it WRONG! Even though I agree with the concept!
I’m out. Y’all make me…well, at least not feel so insane.
J
Debbie(aussie)
Thanks to all for putting me straight on the right makes might thing. sorry.
He is an intelligent man who speaks very well. Still the speech was filled with untruths (legitimate afghan govt, us security at stake, attacked from afghanistan). But politically what else could he do, as no body wants to reduce the financial gains for MIC.
MBSS
wow, did that rhetoric really make you guys feel any better about sending 30,000 troops, and 30 billion, into a corrupt quagmire?
Something Fabulous
@ellaesther: too late to this thread, but: THIS.
Redshirt
Loved the speech. Still love Obama, completely and even more so than when he was running for the office. Because he’s President now – the world’s President, really, and we are so lucky to have him here, right now, during these trying times.
We’ve got to fight on the border in Af-Pak. Sorry. So let’s do it right, and the broad strategy Hopey laid out is our chance for success. He’s got the skilled people in the right positions to try it. Let’s try it. If it doesn’t work, we pull out with “trained the Afghan army yaddayaddayadda” and forget the whole affair.
We’re at war, whether we like it or not. We can’t just leave, not now, not Af-Pak. We’re entering a very, very scary era of world history (wider spread nukes) and this region is critical to this coming conflict. It’s only prudent to prepare.
MBSS
that he is articulate only makes his warmongering that much more insidious.
spare me the democrat talking points. bullshit decision on our presidents part. major fail, and we are going to pay for it with blood and money.
jl
@arguingwithsignposts: Aw cripes! He did? Maybe I heard what I wanted and missed the mentions. I will read the speech and modify my comments.
Maybe I had my hopes up for my favored option and missed what I did not want to hear.
I will look for the text now.
I’ll have to do that, since I do remmeber hearing some passages that could not have pleased the pro central government people, but I better read the speech before I say anything more.
John O
Dear FSM! Just before I shut the TV off I saw Alex Costello, famed GOP whore and CNN analyst, say, “Great idea to escalate! However, setting an exit strategy was really gay!”
Graham reiterates.
OK, gotta try to avoid killing myself now. I’m serious this time.
arguingwithsignposts
@jl:
Link
do I need to go on?
Ash
@MBSS: No, not really. However, cutting and running and leaving Pakistan and India freaking out at each other makes me feel even worse.
General Winfield Stuck
@Paula:
Well, I agree with the land war in Asia part, with maybe the exception of South Korea where the Roks were willing to fight to at least keep their half of that country non comm.
I didn’t and don’t agree with nation building there and fighting a civil war insurgency for eight fucking years. But I don’t think filing charges at the Hague was enough either. Something in between, with laser focus on disrupting AQ with much smaller numbers of troops in the region for that. The Northern Alliance should have done the fighting of the Taliban and Afghan to muddle along their own way like they have done for thousands of years. Some more infrastructure building would not have hurt, but that went to Iraq, or into Haliburtons pocket amongst others.
PTirebiter
@General Winfield Stuck: I was watching on PBS. I thought I saw quick shot of Wolfowitz in the audience, could that be? Shameless bunch of pukes.
Maude
@SiubhanDuinne: It’s sad, but I was so glad that he could pronounce the names of the areas in Pakistan where their army is fighting. It puts paid to the Bush years with the prancing in a flight suit etc.
Just before the speech, NPR was talking about “what he has to do with this speech” and he has to sell it. Damn them.
It wasn’t a sales pitch. It was a military and foreign policy speech.
He made a declaration of human rights. Other countries pay attention to that.
The wingers can try to knock him, but this was a historic speech.
MBSS
oh good frieking lord.
cut and fucking run.
John O
@jl:
I’m telling you, he’s splitting the baby because he has no choice politically, because he knows conditions will offer him new options as time goes by.
I’m not fond of the additional troop concept, either, but I still say he knows more than me (not you, of course) and he made a case I could accept on its rational merits.
I’m old. That’s good enough for me. It’s been a long 8 years.
arguingwithsignposts
@jl:
Just check out the link. I hope I didn’t sound too much of an asshole. Seriously, Obama has had a no win situation here. He set a timeline to get out by 2011. That’s a good start, IMHO, even though I hate the idea of ANY of our troops dying.
MBSS
@Ash:
predator bombs make things better?
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@Shawn in ShowMe:
I need to review the transcript, and I have to go to another barn right now. I am not totally clear on what we want in 18 months.
I would guesstimate (in other words, pull out of my rump roast) that he wants what Stuck said, which is to enable the Afghanis to keep their own situation stable. I hope that is pretty close to what he wants, and I even more hope that this is doable.
I still think that all pundits should be dressed out and sold for meat.
John O
OK, just for fun:
Predator bombs make the civilians less likely to hang out with the Bad Guys, and the civilians know who they are. Over the long run, which our POTUS tends to view the world.
*duck/cover*
MBSS
what would you guys be saying if bush was giving this speech tonight?
JMY
He was in a no-win situation either way. It’s sad that it even had to come down to this. To this day, I’m pissed that Congress authorized the War in Iraq, knowing full well the situation we were in in Afghanistan and how it was effecting the economy and not to mention the Bush tax cuts. If we would have just focused on Afghanistan, the war would probably be over by now.
Little Dreamer
@Debbie(aussie):
Yeah, how could he possibly misstate that Iraq was the real force behind 9/11.
Are you feeling well?
MBSS
@John O:
bad guys?
the good taliban or the bad taliban? do you mean the taliban we pay off or the other guys? cos the taliban we pay off treat women just like the other guys.
what is the justification for this war, anyway? remember how the iraq justifications shifted?
afghani women?
pakistan?
humanitarian aid?
AQ?
John O
@JMY:
Repeating now: Right.
Near half of the country would’ve hated whatever he decided, and no one knows what the future holds. Made the best call he could, I would guess.
Seems like that kinda guy.
Of Bugs and Books
@JK:
I think it was about five minutes after the speech before O’Reilly said it wasn’t enough of a “Churchill moment” and that the speech was “no Gettysberg Address”.
Too “academic”.
MBSS
this war is a pile of shit, and it’s also deja vu all over again.
take off your partisan jackets and admit as much.
there is no eminent threat from afghanistan.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@MBSS:
I’d say, damn, he looks good. And dark. And he lost that shitty smirk.
John O
@MBSS:
:-)
Hey, I ducked and covered.
I’m with you. But over the long haul, I may be correct anyway. Your points and mine are not mutually exclusive.
So I guess maybe it just depends on the timeline you’re looking at.
Shawn in ShowMe
If Bush was a president that took human and economic cost into account when making decisions, the last eight years never would had happened.
jwb
@MBSS: Bush wouldn’t be capable of giving this speech.
Elizabelle
@JK:
Indeed. If no draft picks, an oar, malfunctioning gun, or just a fish will do. Any fish.
eemom
@MBSS:
that would be “imminent,” even if you are too cool for capital letters. And colors other than black and white.
MBSS
@jwb:
who cares what politicians say, or how they say it. watch the hands, not the mouth.
John O
@MBSS:
That’s all quite true, literally, MBSS, but it isn’t true politically. If Obama (or McCain or Nader) pulled out of Afghanistan and we were hit (which is inevitable, btw) from someone with ties to Afghanistan, no matter how tenuous, Obama is likely politically cooked, which means you and me get (again, maybe-to-probably) less good done than we want.
Just sayin’.
cmorenc
Two greatest mistakes you can make:
1) Get involved with a land war in Asia;
2) Get involved in a battle of wits with a Sicilian.
Hahahahahahhahah…aaa….
[from: Vizzini in Princess Bride]
MBSS
@eemom:
excuse my error. imminent is correct.
jl
@arguingwithsignposts: Thatnks. I read the speech, and will post my irrefutable devastating smackdown in the open thread later (/self-snark tag here).
I grant you there was more emphasis on the security forces than I think wise.
On the other hand, I do not think the references to Karzai are particularly comforting to him (especially if the reports of his paranoia and attempted gaming of US efforts are true).
So, maybe I overstated my argument. But the bottom line is that I do not see a strong promise to focus on building a centarl goverment, beyond obligatory mentions, perhaps needed for its Congressional dupes in Congress.
My bottom line was an uninformative speech about what the strategy will be, and I will stand by that.
MBSS
@John O:
john o, you are saying we should sacrifice humans lives for the sake of political expediency.
fuck the politics. let’s do what’s right.
MBSS
@cmorenc:
never get involved in a land war in asia. even the dread pirate roberts knew that.
Little Dreamer
@MBSS:
Well, the Taliban do have a tendancy to jump across the border into Pakistan from time to time.
jwb
@MBSS: Take your meds already. You’re gonna blow a gasket with an attitude like that and then you’ll do nobody any good.
Corner Stone
For some reason, I can’t link to it but here’s a blurb from the AP:
“The White House carefully chose its backdrop for President Obama’s Tuesday night address on Afghanistan. It was West Point, a sprawling Army Academy 50 miles North of New York, NY. The president’s audience du jour was 700 cadets and soldiers.
But to Americans watching Mr. Obama on television, he may as well have been at a convention hall in Washington. Through most of the speech, all viewers saw was the president speaking in front of a stage-style backdrop with American flags. The men and women in uniform were not visible except in occasional cutaway shots.
Most striking was the eerie silence in the room. There were no shouts of HOOAH — the military salute — and only a single burst of applause during the 28-minute speech (it came after the president said, “We will stay in the fight until the fight is won”).
It wasn’t clear at West Point on Tuesday night whether the White House had choreographed the scene for respectful silence and a somber mood — or, whether the soldiers in attendance were just caught up in the speech and taking their cues from the president’s own solemn tone.
Afterwards, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said he had seen just what he expected. “It’s not the kind of speech where you’re out there in a rally,” he explained. “It was a serious address to the nation.”
Still, the White House had allotted 40 minutes for the remarks. Without the applause that may have been anticipated, Mr. Obama wrapped up in just 28 minutes.
Whether the mood of the evening was one that the White House planned or one it encountered, it underscored the position in which Mr. Obama finds himself.
He gave the speech he wanted to give to a primetime national audience — all the broadcast TV networks carried it in full — but said nothing new, and nothing likely to change the national mood about the war.
In polls, clear majorities of Americans say they think the United States is bogged down in Afghanistan, and that the president and his team have been disingenuous in their rosy assessments. Even those who support the war are less upbeat about it than in the past.
So Mr. Obama seemed to acknowledge the need for more empathy and sensitivity.
“Like most Americans, I see the images of violence and bloodshed,” he said. “Every picture is horrifying, and the suffering is real. Amid all this violence, I know Americans ask the question: Is the sacrifice worth it? It is worth it, and it is vital to the future security of our country.”
Critics picked apart the West Point speech. They said the president didn’t offer anything in the way of a plan or exit strategy. And they complained that he resorted to the dubious link between the Pakistan border area and the Taliban, attempting to drum up support for the Afghanistan campaign by recalling horrific memories of Sept. 11.
This time, however, it would be hard to criticize the president for being rosy. And indeed, his personal demeanor was not so sanguine as usual.
It was a sobering end to a day that had begun with great feelings of anticipation and excitement over the Commander-in-Chief’s visit to West Point.
When a plane filled with reporters and White House staff arrived at the base hours earlier in the day, cadets acted as eager tour guides. A bus carried the visitors from the air strip across the grounds, with an Army major named Amy Hannah pointing out places of interest.
But once the president arrived, walking to the lectern alone and asking his audience to be seated, the room fell silent as a memorial service and remained so for 28 minutes.
Was this the impression the White House bargained for? Immediately after, it did not seem to matter. Polls showed most who saw the speech had a positive reaction. Now the question is whether enough people saw it to make a difference in the overall level of public support for the war.”
MBSS
@jwb:
fuck off. people are dying over this.
John O
@MBSS:
No. My guess is that Obama thinks this will cost the fewest lives in the long run.
Just a different perspective, again, mostly along the time-line, it would seem.
What’s right in terms of what happens next is a fool’s game. We all have our guesses, but none of us, not you, not me, not Obama, not even Tim F., AL, JC and DougJ have any idea.
Obama made a decent case to me, and I’m not a Dem, unlike that sissy Cole.
MBSS
is it worth it?
arguingwithsignposts
@Corner Stone:
Fuck the AP. can they not stick to reporting the news?
Audience du jour. feh.
John O
@MBSS:
People are dying all over the place, every second, MBSS, for all kinds of effing reasons.
What’re doing about malaria and/or pneumonia? Way bigger killers.
Look, I’m not trying to be mean, I’m trying to cut to the chase. And that’s all because I have to work tomorrow.
MBSS
@John O: \
you think it’s inevitable that we will be hit again from someone with ties to afghanistan? are you scared?
then the terrorists and GOP have you right where they want you.
jwb
@MBSS: And there would be people dying over there if we pulled out tomorrow. So fuck off yourself.
MBSS
@John O:
malaria does fine without my tax dollars.
JK
@MBSS:
While we’re at it, how about Fuck All Of These Mother fucking Pundits who don’t know Shit from Shinola but don’t let that stop them from blathering their incoherent nonsense.
John O
@MBSS:
LOL, MBSS.
I got the chance to corner Jay Carney of TIME fame for 20 minutes, one-on-one, and he was simply incredulous that I would “risk my life” in a terrorist attack to maintain my Bill of Rights.
You’re going to have to try again on that one. I accept that I’m going to die, and I accept that it could happen in a very unlucky or even embarrassing way.
*shrug*
General Winfield Stuck
@MBSS:
You may be a pacifist. There is nothing in the least wrong with that. They are valuable, imo,. If so, maybe you should just say so, so we know where you are coming from :)
MBSS
@jwb:
but, i wouldn’t be paying for it. and it would be a gesture of good faith that america is stepping back from imperial ambitions. and it would make president obama’s nobel not so ironic. and the budget. and there are many other reasons.
Wile E. Quixote
@AngusTheGodOfMeat
I uh, don’t know, uh, but I’m going to start, uh, using it. I, uh, figure that if I do, uh, I can get a job, uh, as, uh, a pundit. I mean, uh, I’ve got all of, uh, the qualifications, uh; I’m loud, uh, can be a real asshole at times, uh, am, uh, a white guy, uh, and have been told, uh, that the grey, uh, at my temples, uh, and my geek glasses, uh, make me look distinguished, uh. This, uh, wasn’t as cool, uh, as being told that, uh, I looked, uh, like Adam Savage, on, uh Mythbusters, uh, but I still, uh, think I’m cooler, uh, than Wolf, uh, Blitzer.
I can haz pundit job now?
MBSS
@General Winfield Stuck:
general. i am a pacifist. i would accept war in the last resort. i do not accept it as we use it today. which is as a bludgeon, as a money maker, as a political tool, and all the other ways it is used.
Wile E. Quixote
@JK
Could we get them all there by telling them that we’re showing a remake of Red Dawn and then once they’re all seated bar the doors and go all Inglourious Basterds on them?
Thadeus Horne
Geez… I’m sorry I said anything.
John O
@General Winfield Stuck:
Heck, General, I’m a “pacifist” at least on the condition no one is trying to rape me. I just wouldn’t feel very peaceful if someone was imposing on me physically in any way, which is why I support MBSS in principle.
I wish we lived “in principle.” We don’t, so I live in an “I’ll maintain my personal principles until it is no longer rational” place.
jwb
@MBSS: Well, maybe if Afghanistan was in any position to keep itself from devolving into complete civil war. But I guess because Americans wouldn’t be responsible for shooting the bullets, you’d think that the resulting carnage would not at all be our responsibility. Listen, I’m open to the argument that the carnage of a full civil war might be a less bloody option, but to pretend that somehow the American presence in Afghanistan is the cause of bloodshed and that the removal of our troops would make us no longer responsible is really naive.
John O
@jwb:
Sorry, jwb, I don’t get this part:
Listen, I’m open to the argument that the carnage of a full civil war might be a less bloody option, but to pretend that somehow the American presence in Afghanistan is the cause of bloodshed and that the removal of our troops would make us no longer responsible is really naive.
You seem to be saying, simultaneously, that our presence in Afghanistan is not the cause of bloodshed and that somehow we’d still be responsible for any bloodshed were we to leave.
Could you clear that up for me?
General Winfield Stuck
@MBSS:
Me neither. I just don’t want OBL and any like him, kicking back and plotting their own little bloody war. I only want The very least amount of war as necessary to make him nervous and unable to concentrate, or, at most, singing hymns with Allah.
MBSS
@jwb:
i understand that without troops there NGO’s can’t get in, civil war will resume, and there will still be bloodshed. but how does it help with the cia there funneling money to karzai’s drug lord brother. say what you want about the taliban, but they did take care of the poppy issue. what about predator drones which hover for a long period of time before dropping bombs which OOPS sometimes hit civilians. is that collateral damage or is that innocent people who are now dead because of us? those afghani kids who hear those drones must feel like europeans during ww2. now the troops are supposed to win hearts and minds with the coin strategy with a population of people who have been at war their entire lives and don’t distinguish between nato troops/american troops/russian troops. there are a bunch of foriegners invading their land, and they are going to fight them off, as they always have. do you blame them?
this whole idea of war for peace is nonsensical to me. and the further we get into the details, the crazier it gets. this war may be more justifiable than the iraq war, but that’s not saying much. it is still a stupid and unnecessary war.
jwb
@John O: I’m just saying that because we destabilized the country, we would own the very bloody results once we left even if it wasn’t our soldiers pulling the triggers.
John O
@MBSS:
OMG! Yes, the poppy issue! Good thing they don’t have a marketplace!
If there’s one thing the U.S. should do, it’s sacrifice more women’s rights, education rights, human rights domestically and internationally to reign in the poppy trade.
Otherwise right on, MBSS. :-)
John O
@jwb:
I get that, jwb. But I would dispute the premise that Afghanistan was all that stable before we got there, which your argument appears to rely on.
Like I keep saying, there are no good options. The Bush legacy in a nutshell.
MBSS
@John O:
i’m with you on that. we don’t have to fix their drug problem, but we don’t need to exacerbate it either, and that is what we are doing.
MBSS
blockquote fail. argh. lol.
jwb
@MBSS: “they did take care of the poppy issue.” And in a very bloody way, too. What about all the innocents killed when we pull out and the Taliban and other warlords take over? The problem is there is no clean exit. It may well be that this is a stupid and useless war and lord knows we could spend the money better doing almost anything else with it, but the question is how do we extricate ourselves doing the least amount of damage? I really see Obama as making a strategic punt here, and for the same reason you punt in football: hoping for some change that will give him better options than fourth and ten on his own twenty.
MBSS
ok guys. no hard feelings. i respect your opinions.
MBSS
@jwb:
this isn’t how you get out, this is how you get sucked in, lyndon johnson style. 2011? don’t take that to the bank.
jwb
@John O: Well, my sense is that it was relatively stable just horribly ruthless. (And, yes, the appearance of stability was undoubtedly a product of the ruthlessness; i.e., it was in fact very unstable.) In any case, I think we are in agreement that there aren’t any good options.
MBSS
@jwb:
what kills more people? the taliban killing people and banning poppy growing, or the cia giving millions of dollars to the corrupt karzai family so they an fuel their drug trade?
i don’t know, but i wouldn’t want to argue that we are helping.
jwb
@MBSS: It all depends on the focus—and that should be clear over the next couple of months.
jwb
@MBSS: I don’t think I would put in terms of helping. I would put it in terms of hurting least. Because what we are looking at is finding the least bad option (and all the options are piss poor).
General Winfield Stuck
@jwb:
There is only one path to take here. We can’t stay forever and fight someone elses civil war. All the other stuff Obama talked about was just filler. The main point he was making, IMO, was to send a stark message to the Afghan people. This is your country for you to decide how to run it. We will do the best we can to train your soldiers and equip them to fight the Taliban, and take away some of their current mojo, and here is our exit date, or thereabouts.
People are going to continue to die there, no matter if we stay of go. Afghan. is a patriarchal society, and a warrior society with a warriors pride. They will know what to do when the time comes.
As for the poppies and everything thing else that didn’t happen that should have while we’ve been there for the past 8 years, send all questions to Crawford TX, or wherever Danger Monkey hangs his head. Spilt milk, water under the bridge, coulda shoulda woulda. That toothpaste won’t fit back in the tube.
Afghan could be growing a lot healthier shit, if we had focused on that, like a hundred other things we didn’t do.
MBSS
we can agree to disagree. i usually don’t cuss at people, so i am sorry.
MBSS
i am a green on a democratic blog, and that inevitably creates some tension. but john cole seems to let me hang around, and there are some funny and sharp people here, so that’s why i pop in once and a while.
jwb
@MBSS: I don’t usually cuss at people either (pundits excepted), and I apologize as well.
arguingwithsignposts
@MBSS:
We are all mayans here, so keep it coming. I find the intellectual challenge stimulating, unlike the trolls who come here spouting RW talking points.
MBSS
@arguingwithsignposts:
we can team up on the birfers and the BoBs.
Violet
@MBSS:
Actually a lot of your tax dollars do go to fight malaria:
I am no fan of W, but he did a lot of good in African countries by increasing attention and funding for fighting malaria and AIDS. It’s something he never got much recognition for and he should be given credit for it.
MBSS
@Violet:
i do give bush credit for that. wow, that was weird typing that.
gil mann
My favorite part was when he made it contingent upon abstinence-only education.
Not saying it wasn’t a net plus, just that the Bush administration was every bit as bad as you remember and probably worse.
Zuzu's Petals
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
Warn’t it great?
Zuzu's Petals
@MikeJ:
I noticed some cheering when he came in.