Via Atrios, more wisdom from Ben Nelson:
In lieu of a “war tax” to pay for a troop increase in Afghanistan, Democratic Sen. Ben Nelson (NE) is proposing war bonds.
“We didn’t have a war tax in the second World War,” Nelson said, and instead the government sold Americans bonds.”People invested in their country, in that fashion [and] made a lot of sense back then. I don’t know why it might not make sense today, certainly in lieu of jumping to tax.”
This is the fine mind the Democrats have given the veto power over their health care legislation. This is the man who has the last say on the most significant piece of legislation Democrats will craft in decades. This is the man who holds the electoral future of all Democrats hostage.
And that man is an idiot.
beltane
It’s nice to know that supposed deficit-hawk Ben Nelson wants the government to borrow more money. I think it was Thomas Friedman or some other wanker who proposed the War Bond scheme back in 2003 as part of the whole “shared sacrifice” thing that never got off the ground.
Bringing back the draft would be the quickest way to end this debacle.
Aaron
I often wonder if the movie Idiocracy was a little more accurate than we would like to think. In a climate where being right is not as important as being quick; where being intelligent is not as important as being sure of oneself – should we really be surprised that those we choose to lead us are liars, shills, and/or idiots?
Jim
I was just reading about Nelson’s vow to get Stupak’s language put in the Senate bill. I can’t get a read on Nelson, he doesn’t radiate stupid the way say Evan Bayh or Max Baucus often do, and I can’t think why he would have a Liebermanesque grudge against the party that he, after all, chose to join, though he sure as hell seems like a fairly conservative Republican. Any Nebraskans know what Nelson’s deal is? Is he just giddy with all the attention and power? A bedrock asshole? All of the above? I think the country–even the Dems– would be better off with Chuck Hagel in Nelson’s seat.
(and, not to split hairs, but the filibuster rule gives him veto power, and it seems to me that Dems are doing about everything they can to give that power to Snowe and her shadow senator precisely so that Nelson and Lieberman don’t have that power. What substantive difference that will/would have in the end, I can’t imagine.)
Martin
Well, that’s a moderately NSFW ad from Project Wonderful “SEE MY EX-GIRL NAKED!’ with the panties half rolled down. Don’t make me adblock, Cole.
demkat620
We have two parties in this country. The Silly Party and the Really Silly Party.
Take your pick.
Keith
Or maybe we could have all of America’s homemakers head to factories and start riveting sheet metal. Posters will help greatly with this effort.
Josh Huaco
@Aaron:
“Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.” -HL Mencken
;-)
Aaron
@beltane:
I am not sure if long-term investments really count as “sacrifice,” but what do I know? I love the idea of bringing back the draft, but with the added provision that congressional family members are not exempt. It is a lot tougher to vote for a war when it isn’t someone else’s family members you are sending.
On a somewhat related note, if you add an an amendment to a congressional bill, you should be required to vote for it. If the current crop of Congressmen are the best and the brightest – chosen to lead America into the next millenium – we are in deep shit.
calipygian
We may not have had a war tax, but maybe Ben Nelson should consider raising the top tax rate on incomes over 2.5 million to 94%, which is where the top bracket was in 1944.
Aaron
@Josh Huaco:
Great quote. I think we are seeing some of the results of this in California. The people who hate taxes the most are often the ones who complain the loudest about potholes, school funding, and lack of lack of balanced budgets. /shrug
Morbo
MY’s first commenter made me lol.
And yes, Nelson is about as smart as Nelson Muntz.
General Winfield Stuck
Hey now. You let up on Ben.. He is also proposing a nolo abortion amendment, and that is good economics. And has the added benefit of keeping wingnut Baby Jeevus from shitting it’s diaper. More citizens, more war bonds, more potential grunts, and more profit makes it all American.
Tax ain’t tax if you don’t call it that. Mission Accomplished.
Comrade Dread
Does he even realize how debt works? What exactly does he think we’ve been doing to finance this war? Pulling magic dollars out of Ben Bernake’s bum?
Svensker
@Keith:
Sarah with her sleeves rolled up — I’d go fight for that!
General Winfield Stuck
Also too. son.
Rick Taylor
This really is stunning. On the plus side, we can now eliminate the debt. We just need to relabel all bonds war bonds.
Dream On
Well, that’s a moderately NSFW ad from Project Wonderful “SEE MY EX-GIRL NAKED!’ with the panties half rolled down. Don’t make me adblock, Cole.
————————
They just want me to give the site a bunch of my friend’s emails so I can see “MORE pictures.” Sounds very fishy. Gratifying, though. But I never got to see any nudity. The Charlatans!
beltane
@Aaron: War Bonds are the Beltway pundits’ version of sacrifice. They learned this from watching all those WWII movies where Americans sacrifieced, bought War Bonds, and acquired great glory for freedom and democracy. We are mostly being led by a bunch of clueless idiots who learned everything they know from Hollywood movies. God help us.
Mark S.
@Aaron:
Thanks, man! I needed a good laugh today.
I probably should be crying.
MBSS
i love me some pro-war democrats.
can they fellate multinationals too, so the difference between them and the pukes is negligible?
freelancer
again, I get to showcase my handiwork.
MikeJ
Maybe he really is the best and brightest Nebraska has to offer.
freelancer
@MikeJ:
ouch.
Could be worse, we could have Oklahoma’s senators.
Mako
@Dream On:
I personally prefer the “Funny T shirts” ad to the “Wool suits” ad.
Roger Moore
@Aaron:
Fixt. The thing about not wanting a family member to be sent to the war applies equally much to the ordinary voter, maybe even more so. After all, only a fraction of Congresscritters have children eligible for the draft in the first place, and they might still be able to pull strings to get their child kept out of harms way if they are drafted. Ordinary voters aren’t in the same boat, but a lot of them may think they’ll be protected by the various exemptions for college students, families with small children, etc. If you put every voter at risk of being drafted, you’ll discover that war is a lot less popular.
The Moar You Know
@Aaron: The only thing he got wrong was the timeline. Idiocracy won’t be 500 years in the future. It’s looking to be 5, maybe 10 years tops.
Aaron
@Mark S.:
You’re welcome :-) Clearly, most congresspeople have an IQ somewhere between a rock and a jar of Baconaisse. I just wonder why they keep getting re-elected . . . It certainly doesn’t say much for the electorate.
@Beltane: yeah, although I see no reason to disparage idiots. The beltway crowd are little more than stenographers to power. Which brings me back to my original point about contemporary America resembling Idiocracy. The glorification of the inane, stupid, and shallow will surely not end well. America may not end with a bang, but with the incessant assault of popular television shows like Ow, My Balls and Why Liberals Want to Eat Your Children.
Aaron
@Roger Moore:
I agree, Roger. Military personnel generally come from lower income regions/families, but I agree that nobody should be exempt. Furthermore, itt is my belief that any vote for war ought to be accompanied by a draft. If a war is truly worth fighting, then everyone should have to contribute.
Let’s see how many people cheerlead for war when the draft cards get sent out . . .
gizmo
Great. We’ll have an opportunity to buy bonds from a government that is $11 trillion in the hole. Such a deal…
calipygian
@Aaron:
I say, don’t even announce a draft, in fact, make pains to say there WONT be a draft. But, issue plastic cards acknowledging when someone has registered with Selective Service with big letters on the back DO NOT LOSE OR MUTILATE. Just to make your average Frito Pendejo think while he’s tossing back his Vodka and Brawndo down at Buttfuckers.
cmorenc
@demkat620
All this silliness would indeed be hilarious, if only the “Really Silly” Party wasn’t so dangerously sociopathic and toxic to any living creatures who aren’t wealthy enough to insulate themselves from the nightmare mess they helped create.
Elizabelle
Who said this?
“I tell you what should happen, ______. We need an immediate Congress to pass a war tax, because you know what? We’re involved in two wars now and this country is feeling no pain. Well, I got news for you. When you’re involved in war, everyone should feel a little bit of pain. We need to pass a war tax to pay for this war.
And I’ll tell you something else. It’s time to bring back the draft. These guys are on their fifth or sixth tours over there. I used to be advocate for a professional military. I’m not anymore. It’s too easy for these people to take our young men and women to war and not account for it.
And let’s pass one more law, ______. The next time the government votes to go to war, I think every congressman and senator should be required to pr predesignate someone in their family begins immediate military service. I’m tired for these people voting to go to war and then they have no dog in the fight.”
Just Some Fuckhead
Wars pay for themselves, Libtards. Ben Nelson knows this. He’s just floating the war bonds idea so we can all make some money here, not just the government.
cmorenc
@RogerMoore
…the change to a pure draft lottery around 1969 from one that was honeycombed with exemptions was among the key factors that accelerated erosion of public support for the Vietnam War.
cmorenc
@Elizabeth
Jesse Ventura (ex-gov of Minnesota, former pro wrestler, and ex-Navy Seal).
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@Just Some Fuckhead:
You know what, I never thought real Perma-War was possible, but you have convinced me that it can work …. as an investment vehicle.
Let’s crank up some War ETF’s.
AGWR — the Afghanistan War ETF.
OPM — Opium Shares. Tied directly to the street price of heroin.
Shit, we can fund perma war and get rich too.
This is the best idea I have ever stolen from you.
Let’s roll.
Just Some Fuckhead
@cmorenc:
He was also killed defending America from an alien in Predator so he knows a little bit about war and pain.
Wile E. Quixote
In my fantasy President Obama makes his speech and says “We need to send 40,000 more troops to Afghanistan. In order to make this happen I am asking Congress to re-institute the military draft and pass a war surtax of 25 percent on all income, regardless of source, over 5 million dollars and 50 percent on all income, regardless of source, over 25 million dollars to pay for our military operations in Afghanistan and to make sure that our troops are well paid and have the weapons and support they need.”
Then, when the conservatives shit themselves blind over this say “I’m sorry to see that the Republican party doesn’t support our troops, General McChrystal or our efforts to combat terrorism.” It’s time for President Obama to go on the offensive, he’s good at taking punches from the Republicans, but at some point he has to start hitting back.
DZ
@Beltane:
I am a left-wing, very anti-war Democrat. I will spend my money and my time opposing a draft in any form. Slavery is incompatible with a free society. Have you ever been drafted? Well, I have. Spent time in Milan Federal Pentitentiary because of it. No draft. If I can’t stop a draft, I have 3 minimum requirements: 1) No deferrments for anyone or any reason, 2) women are subject to it on the same basis as men and 3) gays are in. Not negotiable.
Leelee for Obama
The tax during WW2 was The Victory Tax, I think? We also had wage and price controls, and told the Big 3 that they would be building war materiel, as it would be illegal to build cars for the duration. In addition, according to my parents, the American People sent their sons to war w/o much hesitation, from every corner of the country. And the ordinary citizen worked shifts at factories, and recycled everything from tea bags (no snark, here) to cooking grease to used tires. Woman donated their wedding rings and engagement rings and anything else they could. Kids learned to share their shoes and their clothing, ladies painted their legs with fake stockings and drew fake seams up the back. Men’s clothing, which was in closets, as their owners were in uniform, were recycled into women’s suits, blouses and children’s clothes. I still have my Mom’s sewing book from 1943. It’s still one of my favorites. My parents lived in Brooklyn, NY, and they worked at Sperry Gyroscope, making the gyroscopes that kept the planes landing safely in Britain. They grew vegetables in their small plots behind the apartment buildings they lived in and learned to eat less meat and more dairy, for the protein.
Shared sacrifice, Bitchez! We should be the same, or we should stop doing war. Period. Also, too!
beltane
@DZ: It wouldn’t come to that. People would hear the word “draft” and swarm their representatives offices like nothing we’ve seen before. As it is now, most Americans are barely aware there is a war going on; it has been humming along like background noise for half a generation.
Woodrowfan
OK, but can we get Hope & Crosby to do some War Bonds rallies???
Nellcote
So if the war bonds don’t pay for the war in say 7 months, they could have a war tax trigger that kicks in.
Notorious P.A.T.
Agreed. Is replacing water with Brawndo, the Thirst Mutilator! any stupider than buying bottled water that is no different at all from what comes out of your faucet? Is putting a porn star in the White House a quantum leap from electing a C-list actor?
Of Bugs and Books
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
Can I get some inside info on coming Wall Street funds buying / bundling life insurance policies from financially desperate soldiers?
Plus the government could tax the funds to help pay for the wars.
/ I’m embarassed by my species to think/know about similar things.
gex
@General Winfield Stuck: Yes. I believe Pawlenty kept his promise not to raise taxes, but man, there are fees aplenty flying around now. We now get to pay money to use one of the lanes of the highways. That’s not a tax. That’s a tip to the state for exellent service. We’ve only lost one bridge after all.
gex
@cmorenc: The permanent war crowd may have lost that battle, but they won the war. This country by and large is now indifferent to the fact that the burden of war is now carried by poor minorities. And to the war crowd this is a feature!
Marc
@calipygian:
This.
I’m glad Senator Nelson and I agree on the desirability of reverting to the 1944 tax structure. Go for it, Ben!
Wilson Heath
You know what a war bond is besides deficit spending? It’s a promise to pay future tax revenues. Pay now or pay later. We’re at the right point to be Keynesian right now as a general matter, but the war tax rates being mentioned are marginal enough to have little behavioral impact. But that’s just a drop in the bucket we need to fill.
Some people who know what the Foxtrot they’re talking about with this war tax stuff: Dan Shaviro and Linda Beale. Oh, and if you’re looking for an honest man in Washington, Bruce Bartlett, former-supply-side revolutionary, actually isn’t a bad place to start, although in longer form than the other links.
mclaren
Wile E. Coyote allowed as how:
Unfortunately Obama & Rahm Emanuel and company are smart enough to realize that the entire conservative movement has disintegrated and what used to be called the Republican Party is now a mob of batshit-insane loonies gibbering crazed drivel on national TV.
As a result, Obama & Emanuel and company have correctly made the political calculation that they don’t have to placate their base in order to govern. Even if the economy continues to collapse, who are unemployed families who’ve lost their homes going to vote for…an Eisenhower Republican like Obama, or people standing in the street holding Hitler signs while screaming that we need to end unemployment extensions and shut down welfare and food stamp programs while cutting taxes on the rich?
If you used to own a home and you’re now living with your family in a shelter, are you really going to vote for a Republican candidate who promises to end the food stamp program that’s keeping your family alive in 2012? Really?
Given a choice between Obama’s “more war, butt snorkel Wall Street, neocon lite” and the Glenn Reynolds-Michelle Malkin wack jobs howling “nuke Mecca and cut taxes on the rich NOW!!!” any sane person will vote for Obama. When your choice is between continual promises of withdrawal from Iraq & Afghainstan that turn out to be lies…or some senile crazy ex-POW singing “Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran!” there ain’t a choice. You go with the sane guy even though you know he’s lying to you about withdrawing from our middle east quagmires. You know, the point here is, at least the sane guy isn’t talking about getting into new quagmires. Like invading Iran. And invading Syria. And nuking Mecca. And invading Saudi Arabia. And invading Oman. And invading the UAE. And…
Well, you get the idea.
Basically, Obama and company have made the cynical and sadly accurate political calculation that the 2012 presidential election will boil down to a choice between crazy people holding guns in the middle of the street and screaming threats, and a sane right-wing liar who is firmly in the pocket of Wall Street and the military-industrial complex.
I despise Geithner and Summer and Petreus and the rest of those grossly incompetent pathological liar and thieves as much as the next sane person, but when it comes down to voting for Sarah Palin or Barack Obama, fuck all, that’s not a hard choice.
This points up the huge problem with a lack of sane conservatives in America. If we had some kind of rational conservative party instead of a lynch mob of certifiable crazies, they sane conservatives would be the ones proposing to end our interminable losing pointless foreign wars and hang the Goldman Sachs con artists from the lamp posts. Since there’s no sane alternative to Obama, he has correctly deduced that he can pretty much do whatever the fuck he wants, and we’re stuck with it. Obama doesn’t have to hit back at the Repubs. Obama doesn’t have to do anything. He can just stand by and watch the Republican Party disintegrate into insanity and he knows goddamn well no rational person will vote for ’em in 2012. Hell, even today, the Republicans are falling apart so badly that house seats that have been in the Republican party for 100 years are changing to Democrats. Under these circumstances, all Obama has to do is get out of the way of the Republican train wreck…and he knows it. Obama doesn’t have to do jack shit. Which is a real problem, because Obama’s policies are heading us straight into two more Vietnams and a worse version of the 2008 global financial meltdown if he keeps it up.
zhak
Um. Ben Nelson slept through history class, the naughty scamp.
Whatever it was called, taxes were raised and raised and raised again so that the second world war was, you know, paid for.
This novel concept failed miserably, of course, and the steady stream of new & necessary materiel and, later, aid to countries in need, would help to cement our reputation as the best & greatest country to emerge from that conflict.
Fortunately, George W. Bush knew better than to repeat the mistakes of a Democrat president.
Rudi
Maybe Nelson like McClown doesn’t know how to use a computer or the Internets. The numbers from OMB for actual dollars is more interesting than as a percentage of GDP.
Revenues increase over 700% during the war. Did the tooth faerie put the money under FDR’s pillow?
BillCinSD
WRT the Stupak-Pitts language, someone should ask Ben why he favors more crime. Freaknomics “proved” that increased abortion reduced crime, thus limiting abortion will increase crime. The whole Family crowd are objectively pro-crime