As fucked up our own criminal justice system is, this seems incomprehensibly insane to me:
An Italian jury has found American student Amanda Knox and her Italian boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito guilty in the stabbing death of British exchange student Meredith Kercher.
Knox was sentenced to 26 years in prison and Sollecito was sentenced to 25 years.
Timothy Egan ably details what an absurd case this was.
This is something I can’t explain and perhaps it’s irrational: I realize that all kinds of terrible crimes occur all over the world all the time, but it always seems worse to me when the crime is perpetrated by a state. Especially when it’s the type of western, democratic, capitalist state that it is supposed to represent the last word in human civilization.
Thank God the Italians don’t have the death penalty.
Will
Italy and the U.S. are neck and neck for the title of most fucked up Western democracy. Fortunately for Italy, it has the EU to prop it up when it spits up on itself.
Yutsano
I’m hoping the Italian courts have an appeals process similar to American ones. If so this will get overturned so quickly it’s not even funny. Also the judge is a showboater and wanted a big trial under his belt. I’m hoping the American consulate is all over this.
Notorious P.A.T.
Capitalism is part of the pinnacle of human civilization? Let’s hope not.
DougJ
Capitalism is part of the pinnacle of human civilization? Let’s hope not.
I wouldn’t have said this ten years ago, but a-fucking-men.
Will
It’s been an enlightening decade for a lot of people.
Jason Bylinowski
Yeah, I never knew what to feel about this case, so DougJ I’m sorry if I don’t jump on the bandwagon of feeling like it’s a travesty of justice. It may well be a travesty, but in at least a few ways, Amanda Knox didn’t make things any easier on herself and behaved in ways that I actually do think raise suspicion (changing her initial story, lying about details, etc). I have been following the case for years but have been trying to ignore it lately because it’s confusing. On the other hand, it was hard not to sympathize just because imagining what it must be like to be charged in a foreign court doesn’t make me feel very secure, even a relatively modern western court like Italy surely has. Finally, Amanda Knox is (or was, last time I checked) fucking gorgeous so you can forget me having any kind of sensible opinion of her.
All in all a reminder of why you couldn’t ever pay me enough to be a lawyer on either side of the system. There is simply too much room for misjudgment to ever feel like you could sleep soundly at night.
General Winfield Stuck
I have no idea if this woman is innocent or guilty of the crime she was convicted of, but the case brought by the Italian prosecutor was a clown show, and would likely have been dismissed in our courts before it began.
Somebody killed this woman, and Amanda’s early changing stories are hard to get past, though she claims the cops sweated her into it.
As for handling (bungling) of the evidence, the cops should be put on trial for that, from what I can gather.
kommrade reproductive vigor
She was found guilty after being tried. What am I missing?
Will
To be honest, I’m not sure of her guilt or innocence either. But the prosecution has been such a psychosexual freakshow that it has convinced me that, if I ever have a daughter, I’m not letting her go anywhere near Italy.
I used to mentally downplay the many, many stories I’ve heard about how fucked up Italian men are about women. This case has confirmed a lot of my worst biases.
MikeJ
How long did the OJ trial go on with the joke of a case they brought?
DougJ
Amanda Knox didn’t make things any easier on herself
Lock her up then. Lord knows if someone acts strangely when they’re possibly facing 25 years in jail, then they must be guilty, so fuck them.
DougJ
Finally, Amanda Knox is (or was, last time I checked) fucking gorgeous so you can forget me having any kind of sensible opinion of her.
I just can’t ever see anything that way. You know, a lot of good that would do her in prison. It’s just not a right way to look at something like this.
Will
You know how all those black men used to be found guilty of rape in the Old South, after prosecutors swayed juries with stories about how black men were subhuman devils with a hunger for white women? The prosecutors’ case was the female equivalent of this, with a little bit of anti-Americanism thrown in for good measure.
MikeJ
This does not sound plausible.
Tx Expat
DougJ, I really appreciate all the posts you write about the criminal justice system. So many people have the idea that if you’re charged with a crime, you must be guilty. I don’t know what’s it like in Italy but I can tell you from working on Innocence Project cases in LA that it is astonishing how people get convicted of crimes on the flimsiest of evidence.
For example, I told my winger dad the basics of a case I’m working on right now and he said, “so what else are you doing?”
My response, “so you don’t want to hear about people that might have been wrongfully convicted?” “No.”
It is this mindset we are battling. Defense lawyers are underpaid, underfunded and unappreciated. Who knows how many people have been wrongfully convicted? Our resources are focused on those who are on death row or have life sentences, what about those people who have been wrongfully convicted in foreign forums or for lesser sentences? Thing is, this woman was convicted not under an American type of justice but under the civil law, which has less due process rights. She needs a top-notch American defense/capital defense attorney, not an Italian attorney. I don’t know how their appeals process works, but she needs to get one post-haste.
When I was in Cairo taking LLM classes, I defended the American adversarial system to the hilt, but it has its flaws. My question is, how do we fix it?
General Winfield Stuck
@MikeJ:
This woman ain’t OJ who had celebrity which is why it became a clown show. Knox doesn’t, and If she had been tried here, I doubt many would know about it, and certainly not world wide media interest. Being overseas is what got the world wide media’s attention to the degree it has, and made it a clown show.
eemom
“the case brought by the Italian prosecutor was a clown show, and would likely have been dismissed in our courts before it began.”
With all due respect, that’s a pretty naive statement, considering the long and dismal record of much worse injustices (if that’s what this was) perpetrated in “our courts.”
That said, I would never venture a conclusion one way or another about whether or not someone was guilty of a crime, or whether they were instead the victim of a gross injustice, without a hell of a lot more knowledge of the facts than any of us has. That’s what a trial is for.
And yes, Knox can appeal, and possibly get a reduced sentence even if the verdict is not overturned.
Will
The knife with her fingerprints do not match the wounds on the victim. All of the forensic evidence was either counter-indicative of her guilt or inconclusive. Likewise, the testimonies and eyewitness accounts linking her the scene were murky as hell. She could have done it, but the evidence really doesn’t say.
Which is why the prosecution relied heavily on things like computer animated recreations of the murder that featured Knox’s avatar in her panties, Penthouse-forum quality dialogue of what could have happened invented by the prosecuting attorneys and introduced as evidence and statements calling her a she-devil temptress. It was an incredibly shameful exhibit of how to build a damning case by stacking insinuations and appealing to stereotypes.
DougJ
I can tell you from working on Innocence Project cases in LA that it is astonishing how people get convicted of crimes on the flimsiest of evidence.
God bless you for working on it.
It’s awful the way that the system likes to assume that if someone isn’t the right kind of person, then let them rot, even if they’re not guilty. Awful.
DougJ
“the case brought by the Italian prosecutor was a clown show, and would likely have been dismissed in our courts before it began.”
Well, if you read the Egan article I linked to, I think you’ll see that it’s certainly true that the prosecution did things that would not have been allowed in US court. And I say that with full knowledge of what prosecution gets away with here in some states.
catclub
Of course, this also indicates that when the Italians try 26 US CIA agents in absentia, we should also not trust the result.
In that case, it was clear that any Italian involvement, especially Italian government involvement, was completely whitewashed.
Farmer_Jones
and then there’s this:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann
mhanch
My wife and I know her family. They frequented our business. The family has been destroyed. All their life savings has gone into defense. They have no home left. They are quite literally living on the goodwill of others right now. They may recover with time and I hope so.
We may not know all the details, but we know what this wasn’t: and that’s neither Just nor Justice.
eemom
@catclub:
oh goodness no. THAT is an example of how the Europeans possess the moral courage that we lack. Just ask Glenn Greenwald.
Will
I think the point needs to reiterated that the evidence in this case is extremely murky. I don’t think anyone but the people involved could say what happened with any degree of certainty. This is the kind of case that illustrates why reasonable doubt exists.
The disgust comes from the fact that the Italian prosecutors decided to forgo an evidenciary based trial in favor of a smear campaign that would have shamed the a Jim Crow era lynch party. The trial made the Italian court system look more akin to Iran or Libya than a Western democracy.
General Winfield Stuck
@eemom:
Well now, I said likely, not certainly. She could afford good lawyers, and I know our justice system has it’s problems, especially region wise. But I still think it’s one of the best in the world.
Can you find worse injustices in specific cases, yes of course, it’s a big country we have,. and using that as claiming naivety is itself naive imo. or argument by anecdote.
Elie
I think that Knox was screwed and the murderer of her roommate is at large…
First, does anyone realize how strong you have to be to slit someone’s throat who is awake and fighting?
How much blood there would be on her — everywhere and for days?
Also, what would be the motive? Unless she was stone crazy, where would the intense motivation come from for an attractive A student with her own boyfriend?
A horrible thing —
The Dangerman
If I heard the commentary tonight correctly, the Verdict has to be sanctified by a panel of Jurists (I didn’t quite understand if this was part of an appeal or if it is normal to verify that the Verdict passes a smell test).
Didn’t really follow the case, but it smells awfully odd to me.
General Winfield Stuck
@DougJ:
Didn’t need to read it. Have been following it somewhat closely for awhile now.
DougJ
Didn’t need to read it. Have been following it somewhat closely for awhile now.
Sorry — I was replying to the person who was blockquoting you, not you.
General Winfield Stuck
@eemom:
If we were prosecuting there intelligence agents, you would see that moral courage dissipate rather fast.
MikeJ
The prosecutor’s theory is beautiful coed and her lover kill woman during sex games and you think it would not have been a media circus if tried in the US?
Jason Bylinowski
@DougJ: I knew that line would probably piss somebody off. It was brutally honest assessment of my biggest weakness, and you can thank Finlandia Vodka for it.
Kindly take note that I was not denying that the trial was a freakshow. Of course it was. However, before the case became the biggest news of the week, it was a little known thing, and I followed it because it was fascinating, I immediately sympathized with her and was on her side. But the more you find out about Amanda Knox, the more you wonder about her. Read some of the excerpts of her journal entries and tell me that she is a well-adjusted person.
I’m completely willing to concede that the whole reason this thing became what it did is because Amanda Knox freely breaks sexual taboos and did so at an early age, and did so while being a god-damned spoiled American in a foreign land (the biggest sin of any American is overseas douchebaggery), but again, I just get a decidedly icky vibe from her.
Obvious reaction to that last statement: “Get a vibe, do you? Kinda like Bush feels things in his gut, huh?” Well, to that I can only say, my basis for judgement is solely based on what the media has given me thus far. It could be wrong, and I am completely open to that possibility. Again, thank god I’m not forced to do this shit everyday. I truly do not understand how people can presume to make judgements of other people in such a way as to change their lives forever, which is what both criminals and courts do every day.
For what it’s worth, I hope it does get overturned because the lifetime of nationalist feelings that have been forced down my throat immediately make me suspicious that any European court could ever ensure justice.
Will
There have been doozies, but our system’s evils tend toward the evils of mediocrity. The courts process too many defendants, the prosecutors overcharge too often in attempts to get plea bargains, the defense attorneys are too poorly paid and poorly chosen. The entire system has become a giant machine that works best as an efficient processor of new inmates for our vast prison complex.
You can’t really defend it and our ignoring it says a lot about our collective blindspots, but the evils of the American system tend more toward grey bureaucracy tied to self-serving careerism than outright clownshow misconduct like the Knox case.
Tx Expat
@DougJ:
Well, the thinking is “they did something, right?” And most times we’re working with people who aren’t angels, but didn’t do what they’ve been convicted of doing. I wouldn’t have said this 2 years ago, but the whole goddamn system is rotted.
I’ve seen so many prosecutors/cops lie that I am completely jaded. The only thing that saves us is that we have more due process cards to play than do civil law countries (Italy) do. The sad reality is, though, is that we can’t help everyone that needs our help. As I said, we focus our energies on death row/lifer’s so don’t give any attention to those who are sentenced to 70 year terms at 16. It’s a goddamn scandal.
And the real scandal is how we treat juvenile offenders. They get sent to facilities where they are further abused and criminalized. In LA, upwards of 95% of incarcerated juveniles are African-American. Of those, 87% come in with a learning disability or mental retardation (as measured by Atkins) which is left untreated. What we’re doing down here is creating a permanent criminal underclass. I used to think that I would go to an underprivileged country to export our legal ideas, I have since realized that I’m here and I’m not leaving.
JK
@DougJ:
Doug,
Let me introduce you to Edwin Meese.
“If a person is innocent of a crime, then he is not a suspect.” – Edwin Meese
h/t http://bostonreview.net/BR27.2/bedau.html
A Squirrel
I’ve read about this, and it’s awfully f-ed up.
I know “libertarian” has become something of a four letter word around here, but, sadly, Radly Balko (The Agitator) details stuff this bad or worse all the time, and it happens over here.
I disagree with much of his economic prescriptions, but he truly does the work of angels on issues like this that happen in our country. I admire the guy, and I’m a cynical piece of shit.
General Winfield Stuck
@Will:
Yes, this was my point. And having prosecutors being politicians needing election is one of my pet peeves.
eemom
@General Winfield Stuck:
lacrosse, anyone?
Will
No doubt. Likewise for judges and sheriffs. Justice and elected officials don’t mix.
I think the reason that the Italian case rankles me is the same reason that the end of To Kill a Mockingbird still can piss me off. There’s something revolting about seeing a blatant, hysterical appeal to sexism/racism used to win over a jury. It’s a complete mockery of our elemental feelings of justice and a damning indictment of our fellow man that it so often works.
Tx Expat
@Jason Bylinowski:
I think that all of us get that “icky vibe” but you need to think about the evidence presented. For example, I may think that that woman in NC who prostituted her daughter is an irredeemable scumbag- but I only think that because of what I’ve read in the news. She may be, but there may be some mitigating factors that we don’t know about or some other evidence that hasn’t been presented to CNN that needs to be taken into account.
Defending people who are accused of awful crimes, is complicated – to say the least. But in our system of justice, those people are entitled to the best, most zealous representation. For all we know, Knox may be innocent or at least, not as culpable as she as has been made out to be. Thing is, we don’t know because we haven’t presented with the evidence. And even when you are, as I said upthread, it is astonishing what types of evidence juries will find compelling.
Ann B. Nonymous
Italy is a western, democratic, capitalist state that has been bruised and beaten with clown shoes for decades. I don’t mean to be hyperbolic, but it lacks in its government and its civil society some checks and balances that go a little beyond cultural differences.
And the differences sometimes seem like a vast conspiracy against women. No, not seem, are. Shared, flawed assumptions about women’s motive and agency that are agreed on in silence, in the same way white suburbanites in the U.S. have ideas about “those people,” but are usually too polite to express them in public. The prosecutors in this case are just letting their ids have free rein.
dan robinson
There was a lynching in this case, but it was in the press.
I don’t know if this girl did the things of which she is accused, but the press, notably that of England, has been muck-raking in every way possible. They published a picture of Ms. Knox sisters posed in front of the crime scene. A pose the photogs requested. The girls were wearing shorts. Supposedly, this was a sacrilege. I saw the photo. The shorts are described in the paper as short-shorts. They are not. It was hot that day, they are tourists and they were wearing shorts. But the English press vilified them for it.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1199111/Revealed-Foxy-Knoxys-sisters-posing-happily-macabre-photos-house-Meredith-Kercher-died.html
Damn twit Brits.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
I am no expert on European courts, but I know quite a bit about American ones. While the vast majority of American criminal matters are handled ethically and well, a large enough percentage of them are handled carelessly to warrant concern. I can’t share too much about why I can assert this without going well into the realm of TMI, but as I have said before, prosecutorial excesses are not uncommon enough in our system.
Why that is so, grist another several hundred threads, at another time. But that it is so, no question.
My advice is to become an ACLU member, and contribute early, and often.
freelancer (itouch)
Italy is the cultural home of Jesus. He’s pretty big there. I can’t imagine such a pious government that is permeated with Christianity would make such a grevious error as to falsely imprison a white Christian young woman. She’s an American to boot, surely they gave her every available avenue to exonerate herself, what with the supremacy of American Exceptionalism being universally recognized amongst all god-fearing, and enlightened civilizations.
Will
In their defense, the Brits of my acquaintance refer to Daily Mail readers with the same amount of respect as we do to Glenn Beck fans. It and Murdoch’s Sun are conservative rags with little respect from anyone who isn’t the British cousin to our own teabagging morans.
Jason Bylinowski
@Tx Expat: Well the last couple of threads have presented us all with an all-too-clear clarion example of who the better judge would be of these things (Hint: I’m not the guy involved with the Innocence Project or any other facet of The Law, as I have shouted from the rooftops many a time, with much grateful gusto – though I too say “bless you” for doing what you do). No, I’m only too thrilled to admit that I am a network administrator and washed-up former semi-bad-ass musician, so I will gladly defer to your wisdom here.
I also agree with your carefully-parsed ambivalence towards the approach some juries will take to making their decisions. I have been picked to present myself for jury duty, and though I have yet to actually serve in a jury (note to self: never mention jury nullification ever again!), but I do remember thinking that if this is what we all go through in order to get to justice, if that is the best that can be done, then there’s your best argument against the death penalty right there. I fear it may even be a fairly effective argument against society at large, though I’d personally never go back to Rousseau’s garden no matter what the facts on the ground are regarding the quality of society. But it’s yet another bullet-point on the long, long argument for why education is such an necessary variable in prolonging the success of any democracy.
Comrade Luke
As someone who lives in Seattle (where she’s from), the coverage we got here seemed to be that she was obviously innocent. That was mostly based on the fact that nearly every story included an interview with her parents, who insisted she was innocent. Duh!
But lately, as I started to read more about this, it sounds like facts were pretty much skipped in the trial, and that there are a lot of questions. Unfortunately, there’s just no way to know if the media reports are real or if they’re being used by the defense to present reasonable doubt. I don’t even need to mention that the prosecution was doing this; it was blatantly obvious.
I’ve also served as a juror on a couple of cases, and I can say with 100% confidence that we’re not getting even remotely close to the whole story. After seeing what the media did with the small-time trial I was involved with, I don’t trust a word they say.
Finally, there is one thing that sticks out here above all else, at least to me: this has been going on, from the incident itself to today, over two years. It was an international media sensation, and was filled with conjecture and very few facts.
And the jury took less than a day to convict.
She was convicted the minute she walked in the court room.
And that stinks to high heaven.
Tx Expat
Jason Bylinowski
@AngusTheGodOfMeat: Got my ACLU card in my pocket right now (alright fine, I have no pants on, so sue me), and break it out to all my right-wing friends whenever I can find an excuse.
The Other Steve
Ok, I read this… and umm, I really don’t see much different from US trials.
The girl is pretty nutty and weird and they used it against her. Whether or not she committed the crime, she behaved badly.
Yutsano
@Jason Bylinowski:
The TMIs just keep on a comin’. Or you’re just teasing one of the two.
Jason Bylinowski
@The Other Steve: Whether or not she committed the crime, she behaved badly.
I think that’s clear. What conclusions you draw from that, however, I think say more about the values of the judge than that of the judged. See there? I’m learnin’ mah life lessons. I’ll probably come out of this thread having learned a fair bit, and that, right there, is why the intertron is my friend.
+4
Dream On
They all dit it, they were all disturbed people, Italy convicted the right people. And I’m relieved that I can live in Seattle and not worry about bumping into sociopaths like Knox.
Will
The thing I love about this attitude is that it perfectly encapsulates why our country is so fucked up. Put a man (or woman) in a sensible suit and have them speak in reasonable tones and they can get away with murdering thousands and stealing billions. Works just as well in your community as it does on Wall Street as it does in D.C.
But someone who is a little weird. Everyone knows those fuckers are up to something.
General Winfield Stuck
@MikeJ:
Not as certainly as an American in Europe, no. And not world wide. And no where near someone with the stature of a famous football hero and actor. Come on now.
Jason Bylinowski
@Yutsano: Yutsano, you are one of my favorite commenters, so in that spirit and in light of the fact that I use my real name online I’m going to go with “just teasing”.
Comrade Luke
Yea, Seattle. Where five cops have been killed in the last month.
Good luck with that.
Trollhattan
Egan’s been indespensible throughout this entire case. I won’t pretend to know anything more of the Italian justice system beyond the press on this story, but will venture to guess if they decide a trial is warranted thee be fuqued.
My advice to all who travel there–no cartwheels whilst in custody of the Carabinieri. She was convicted based on her early behavior and no amount of evidence in court seemed to counter it, the trial was a formality. Any parallels to a certain Texan arson murder trial needn’t be drawn.
General Winfield Stuck
Anyways, she gets to cool her heels in an Italian prison for the next 26 years and curse GWB for pissing so many people off.
eemom
She could have been weird and committed the crime.
She could have been weird and not committed the crime.
It could have been a media circus and she was innocent. (See lacrosse, players of.)
Or, it could have been a media circus and she was (probably) guilty (See Simpson, OJ).
Will
You know, I’m not so sure her sexual values are that weird. Thanks to my efforts at continued education, I’ve spent time in a college classroom associating with the youth of today.
Even that brief exposure has convinced me that the Internet/MySpace/Facebook/Youtube/Sexting/Porntube generation has vastly different ideas about sexuality than even my 25-35 year-old cohorts. When they rise to the position where their voices are being heard, I think they are going to shock the hell out of their elders.
Dream On
“Yea, Seattle. Where five cops have been killed in the last month.”
————————-
Nope, one. The 4 unfortunate officers were murdered in Tacoma – 40 miles away. But to answer your comment, obviously we have enough sociopaths here, can’t imagine why Knox ever left.
Xenos
Or it is just revenge for Sacco and Vanzetti.
Although I doubt the good burghers of Perugia give a damn about Sacco and Vanzetti.
Mnemosyne
I still haven’t heard a good explanation of why she at first accused her former boss of committing the crime and let the guy spend two weeks in jail until they were finally able to establish he had no involvement. I understand being scared, but that’s just fucked up.
Dream On
“I still haven’t heard a good explanation of why she at first accused her former boss of committing the crime and let the guy spend two weeks in jail until they were finally able to establish he had no involvement.”
—————————-
Because she’s a liar and involved in murder, that’s why.
eemom
@Dream On:
why are you so convinced of that?
Not saying you’re wrong, just asking.
PaulW
It doesn’t hurt to link to Wiki on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher
From what I’ve seen on the case:
1) The police found and the courts convicted the guy who actually left DNA evidence of being in the apartment and of sexually assaulting the victim: Rudy Guede.
2) The police focused on Knox and Sollecito because of their unusual behavior after the murder and during subsequent interviews.
3) There seems to be almost no evidence that Knox was in the room when the rape/murder took place. Considering that Guede left physical evidence, this seems odd. The other suspect, Sollecito, had apparently left DNA on Kercher’s bra. A footprint in the blood was reportedly made by Sollecito’s shoe, but nothing was said about the shoe being tested for the blood.
4) There was a lot of direct evidence of Guede being involved in the crime, but almost everything linking Knox and Sollecito has been circumstancial.
5) Guede’s alibi – that he had consensual sex and that an Italian stranger broke into the room and killed Kercher before fleeing – had holes you could fly the Spruce Goose through (why not kill Guede as well to ensure no eyewitness?). That he didn’t point the finger at Knox or Sollecito as culprits is curious (if there was a three-team assault here, you’d figure the police would set the guy up in a Prisoners’ Dilemma and force him to make a deal for leniency).
Jason Bylinowski
@eemom:
@Dream On:
why are you so convinced of that?
Not saying you’re wrong, just asking.
If you think you’re ever going to get a satisfactory answer to that question, well….you know what you can do.
WINK!
Tx Expat
@Jason Bylinowski:
I had a long carefully crafted reply to your post, then I read the rest of the posts on this thread and thought, “what do I have to add?” She was, in my eyes, convicted based on media portrayals of her as a sexual weirdo (and foreign to boot, you know how crazy those Americans are!).
I don’t claim to hold any moral authority because I happen to work with the Innocence Project or for any other reason. I do what I do because it shocks my conscience that (even before I came to this work) people can get railroaded in our justice system. It’s even worse in countries that have less due process protections than ours does.
FWIW, I just learned that it has only snowed in southern LA twice since 1988, the last two years I’ve been here. Good grief, I thought this was normal!
Dream On
@eemom,
The reasons why I am convinced she (and her piec-of-trash boyfriend) are guilty are also reasons why I am glad I am not on a jury. I believe that eyes are the window to the soul, and that the cruelest sociopaths have empty eyes. Knox has that look too. Beyond that, there’s been an awful lot of coverage about the case in Seattle, enough to notice that her story kept DRAMATICALLY changing. As someone else wrote regarding er changing defense strategy:
“I got high, had sex with my boyfriend, killed my roomate. Oh wait, no I didn’t, the bartender did. Now I’ll make out with my boyfriend on camera during the murder investigation. Who could have staged the break in? The criminals that broke in, then staged their own break in, that’s who. I heard screams as the killed her. Oh, now I can’t remember what I did that night really, I was under duress two days ago when I made that confession. I wasn’t there when they killed her, I was with my sleazy boyfriend, even though his story is different. Is the hash out of my system yet?”
Comrade Luke
@Dream On:
You’re absolutely convinced she’s guilty by looking into her eyes, and based on the media coverage.
I hope to whatever deity there is that I don’t get into any kind of trouble and end up with YOU on my jury.
Bobby Thomson
Prosecutorial misconduct that should have resulted in a mistrial, but her early attempt to pin it on the Congolese shopkeeper screams culpability to me.
She should be retried.
ppcli
@Mnemosyne:
I have to agree. The cartwheels and perceived spaced-ness are tabloid fodder with no probative value. But she was responsible for sending another man off to jail and letting him sit there for two weeks. There’s no reason to think she wouldn’t have let him sit there longer if his innocence hadn’t been established by other means. It would be believable if the claim was that she fingered him in some sort of confused state after a long interrogation, but the defense of “the interrogation made me do it” doesn’t really hold up after she’s had weeks to collect herself, talk to lawyers, etc.
.
That’s one of the most damning bits of material I’ve read concerning her credibility, and the fact that Egan neglects to mention it at all undercuts his credibility in my eyes.
Dream On
Hey – that instinct worked for me with Dubya!
There’s also that whole part about changing stories, doing cartwheels at the police station. But hey. we’ll probably find out when she gets released in about 10 years.
And I won’t back off for a nano-second regarding sociopaths and their joyless eyes.
Will
Just to play devil’s advocate:
If she was innocent, maybe she honestly thought the guy she fingered did it. Perhaps she’d looked into his eyes and seen a guilty soul.
Bobby Thomson
@ppcli: Yep. I’m not sure who this Egan person is but he’s either staking out some pretty extreme positions without having done all his homework or he’s just intellectually dishonest and/or bought.
eemom
“I believe that eyes are the window to the soul, and that the cruelest sociopaths have empty eyes. Knox has that look too.”
hmmm. Actually, that kind of perception does resonate with me, as a person if not as a lawyer. And I’m sure I don’t need to tell you that it’s not what they call “evidence.”
On the other hand, this does touch on the value of a jury, in those cases where the system actually does work as it’s supposed to. One of the major functions of a jury is to assess the credibility of the witnesses, and really that is something you can only do when they are right there in front of you.
Jason Bylinowski
@Tx Expat: @Dream On: I believe that eyes are the window to the soul
Yeah, but then some people just have freaky eyes, don’t they. My best friend has a pretty assymetrical eyeline; I imagine a hundred years ago, something like that would pretty much amount to an automatic fail. I understand where you are coming from though. It’s tempting as hell to use things like that in everyday life, but I’ve been proven wrong so many times (and proven right for reasons I never even considered) that I really don’t give much value to judgments like that. YMMV of course.
@Tx Expat: I’m just sad for all the innocent words lost in that deleted comment. They never got a chance to live, you miscreant. No, really, I’m that way too. I delete way more than I post. But I take your original point, though your humility towards my deference is appreciated.
Will
Behold, the joyless eyes of a sociopath:
http://www.hitsusa.com/1-good-ones/amanda-knox-myspace.jpg
http://www.nerve.com/CS/blogs/scanner/2009/01/Amanda3.jpg
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/11_02/005knox_228x315.jpg
Jason Bylinowski
Ah, and now I hear the sound of a sick child upstairs. That is my cue to leave, I’m sorry to say. Somebody give John Cole a kiss for me. Bye now.
Will
All funning aside, this reminds of a study I read gauging the “lie detector” ability of law enforcement and judicial figures. The researchers were trying to determine whether officials who professed to be able to tell when someone was lying actually had an accurate sixth sense about these things.
The findings were very interesting. Not only were the self-proclaimed truth tellers not very good at determining truth from lie, but they were also markedly less capable of doing so than those in the study who did not believe that they were more capable of telling who was lying. Their sense of their infallibility actually made them less capable than the average person.
There’s a lesson there.
The Main Gauche of Mild Reason
Ahh, Italy. People forget that, despite Italians’ reputation for “romance”, the society is much more chauvinistic and not as liberal with sexual norms as France or even the U.S.
Mistresses? A venerable institution. College-age students hooking-up? Satanic, insanity-fueled cultish threat to their very way of life.
eemom
and again, Dream On…..what about Osama bin Laden? From the photos at least, he appears to have kind eyes.
Ya got me at Dubya, though……
ppcli
@Will:
Ya call that playing devil’s advocate? You’d think the devil would invest in better lawyers. I realize you are speaking somewhat tongue-in-cheek with your proposal, so no offence, but say she had decided he was guilty based on whatever she saw in his eyes and invented testimony that got him landed in prison. Then even if she’s innocent of the murder I hope she sees some serious jail time for violating whatever Italian law prohibits doing things like that, and I expect that there is one.
(Perhaps this was meant to be a point ad hominem and you just had me confused with someone else in this thread putting evidential weight on the results of looking into people’s eyes. Many perfectly decent people just have off-putting, spooky eyes, in my view. This is an especially treasured belief of mine because I’m pretty sure that I’m one of them.)
MNPundit
@DougJ: It’s fine.
Not a single one of us will have any kind of impact on her situation. Ever. What is she to us? Do we need another reminder of a need to overhaul a justice system? No.
Because nothing we do can ever affect her in anyway there’s nothing wrong with objectifying her. She IS an object to us.
If we were ever to do something that did impact her, we would be of course, obligated to move beyond this.
But since my only contact ever with her will be a picture, I am going to want her to be hot.
New Yorker
I don’t know what the facts of this case are, but the whole thing does seem completely FUBAR. Of course, Italy’s civic culture seems completely FUBAR at times too.
If Ms. Knox is innocent of this, it’s going to be harder to prove it that it was for the Duke Lacrosse team in that a crime actually occurred here, and it’s not just some fantasy tale from a drug-addled hooker.
Garrigus Carraig
Whence all this respect for the Italian judicial system? Have you been to Italy, DougJ? Sheesh, even reading about their postwar history has given me the sense that that is one fu¢ked-up state by Western standards.
Will
ppcli,
Yeah, I was more making fun of the “she has dead, empty eyes” guy. Truth be told, the whole thing is hinky enough that I would not be shocked if she was guilty.
My outrage is that the prosecution didn’t try to prove whether or not she was guilty using evidence. They decided she was guilty and waged war on her character through slander, wholesale fabrication and appeal to misogyny. I mean, they literally showed the jury a computer game cutscene of the murder complete with invented dialogue that showed her in her panties engaging in a threesome and murder, despite a total lack of physical or even testimonial evidence that it happened.
It’s like convicting Tiger Wood’s wife of assault based on that Taiwanese video recreation.
Spot
When you are in Perugia, you have to do as the Perugians do.
None of us was there; we didn’t actually hear the evidence, and it seems a little xenophobic to say that the defendant was railroaded because the court was Italian and the defendant is an attractive American college girl.
Popular opinion and media histrionics are a poor way to decide cases. This case was so sensationalized by a breathless American media that it is impossible to draw any reasoned conclusion about the outcome based on news reports.
And one has to wonder how many of the commenters condemning the Italian court system now nodded with approval when the American CIA operatives were convicted of the kidnapping of a Muslim cleric in Milan.
I’m not expressing an opinion about the guilt or innocence of the defendant; I’m just saying that most of the rest of you don’t have a genuine foundation for expressing one, either.
eemom
“You’d think the devil would invest in better lawyers.”
I will leave y’all with this fine old lawyer joke:
A cosmic bureaucratic fuck-up occurs, and as a result, a team of brilliant, recently deceased engineers who were supposed to go to Heaven end up in Hell.
Once there, they diligently apply their genius and tireless work ethic to devise systems for air conditioning, refrigeration, etc., so that Hell becomes a popular tourist destination instead of a dreaded place of eternal damnation.
When God finds out about this, He is outraged, and calls Satan on the red phone, demanding that the engineers be returned to Heaven, their rightful destination. Satan just laughs devilishly.
Losing His temper, God shouts, “You send them up here right now or I’ll SUE!”
But Satan only laughs harder. “Oh yeah, right. And where are YOU gonna find a lawyer?”
Will
“Popular opinion and media histrionics are a poor way to decide cases. This case was so sensationalized by a breathless American media that it is impossible to draw any reasoned conclusion about the outcome based on news reports.”
I’m actually drawing most of my info from the BBC, which doesn’t have a dog in the fight. As the court was open to the public and press, we have a good idea of what was and was not presented to the jury. It was a fucked up case.
As for the in “When you are in Perugia, you have to do as the Perugians do” idea, that’s just bullshit. It’s the same type of argument that justified killing Yankees trying to register black men to vote in the 50s.
blah blah
@Spot: Just look at the evidence used to convict- a knife that doesn’t match the wound, Knox’s crazy statements, and a computer simulation. None of those in my view are enough to convict. I’m not blaming the Italian judicial systme. The same thing happens in America all the time. (Disclaimer: I happen to be an attorney.)
Calouste
This must be the shittiest post ever on BJ. Comments made based on links without even minimal explanation (although that is a far too common habit among John and Doug anyway), writing off a whole justice system based on one case, and no mention of how this was looked at by the other side. I assume you can’t read Italian, but you could at least have tried the BBC or the Guardian.
Yutsano
@Jason Bylinowski: I appreciate the warm fuzzy sir. Hopefully the child is not too ill and just needs Daddy’s attention. Oh and I’ll kiss John good night for you but no tongue.
DougJ
This must be the shittiest post ever on BJ. Comments made based on links without even minimal explanation (although that is a far too common habit among John and Doug anyway), writing off a whole justice system based on one case, and no mention of how this was looked at by the other side. I assume you can’t read Italian, but you could at least have tried the BBC or the Guardian.
That is one convincing comment.
Take it to Red State, jackass.
Linkmeister
CBS, reporting on this verdict on the Evening News, said there is an automatic appeal in this case, so it ain’t over yet.
I know nothing of the Italian justice system, but as I was told by the CBS reporter, the rules of evidence don’t seem to be as taut as we’re told they should be in the US. That 46 day lag before blood evidence was retrieved from the crime scene would, I think, have been grounds for calling it inadmissible as evidence.
ammonoid
I’m actually drawing most of my info from the BBC, which doesn’t have a dog in the fight.
Ummmm are you joking? The woman who was murdered was British – the BBC has been piling on Amanda Knox as much as the Italian press. Go read the top story on the BBC website now – plenty of bias there!
I wasn’t really aware of the story until today but it seems like a horrible travesty.
tomvox1
@Jason Bylinowski:
What the fuck, dude?
MinneapolisPipe
I did not see or hear the entire trial, so I’m not certain of anything.
However, it was very disturbing how she so willingly pointed the finger at an innocent black man who was then unjustly imprisoned. This man and his family went through hell because of her.
Did the Italian justice system force her to do that?
I read Mr. Egan’s article. You clearly know where he stands on the issue, but I think a more objective analysis would have helped make his case better.
moe99
Have any of you read John Berendt’s book, City of the Falling Angels? It’s about Venice and there’s an Italian criminal prosecution in there that reads like a kangaroo court for the most part.
http://tinyurl.com/yacrecm
I lived in Brussels in ’78-79 where I studied and received an LLM in International Law. I have some idea about what it’s like to be an expat student in a foreign country, and I have some idea of what the Italian system of justice is like.
I have practiced law for 30+ years, 27 of them in Seattle, and I have followed the Knox trial both as an attorney and as the parent of three children who are between the ages of 19 and 24. I can tell you that on both scores I am abolutely horrified at the miscarriage of justice that has taken place. The Timothy Egan article that DougJ cites in this thread should be required reading for anyone before they can make any comment on this here.
I am ashamed that the person who goes by the monker “Dream On” claims residency in Seattle. Most of the people I know in Seattle are decent, thoughtful people. Unlike him/her.
morzer
Before we start getting all anti-European, two words: Mike Nifong. Two more: Rick Perry. (See Cameron Todd Willingham).
.
As for Amanda Knox, she certainly changed her story a couple of times, and that hardly suggests innocence, particularly when she tried to blame an innocent man. We should remember that alarming fact before we make her into an innocent victim of the evil Italian justice system.
Darkrose
@Comrade Luke:
I was on a jury trial two years ago. The charge was assault with a deadly weapon against two prisoners up at Folsom who were accused of shanking another prisoner. We deliberated for three days over a case that really wasn’t that complicated.
So yeah…something smells distinctly rotten about this.
Calouste
@DougJ:
Well, the shittiest post and the shittiest comment in one day, good work Doug. Telling me to to go to Redstate means I suppose that you don’t have any decent arguments to make or are we no longer allowed to point out flaws in the posts of frontpagers, like, uh, on Redstate?
Up your game man, you can write better posts than this (and have).
justiciar
I would like to hear those who rush to proclaim Amanda Knox innocent explain one thing:
Why did she fabricate a story implicating Patrick Lumumba. Knox implicated him in the killing, claiming that he entered Kercher’s bedroom in their shared house on the night of 1 November as she covered her ears in the kitchen.
The story she concocted was only disproved because one person had lingered at Lumumba’s bar (where Knox worked) to have a drink and discuss politics with him.
Why should an innocent woman make up such a calculated lie? She worked with Lumumba, she must have known he would most likely be alone late at night, and she tried to pin the blame on him. Why? Isn’t this more evidence of how calculating and cold-blooded Knox really is?
Yutsano
@Calouste: Just out of curiosity, do you have a point here? Or are you just getting your rocks off bashing our hosts knowing that unlike most right-wing blogs they’ll let you prattle on and on?
Lupin
The lesson one might draw from this is that Roman Polanski (who had learned the hard way to run from the authorities was to live to fight another day) was right.
When accused of a crime in a foreign country, run and return to your own country. Almost all countries do not extradite their own citizens, but will prosecute them for crimes committed overseas, if charges are filed.
However, often charges are not filed (as was the case with Polanski) when the crime isn’t not considered serious enough. But they likely would in the case of murder.
Ms Knox should have immediately flown back to the US and wait for the Italian prosecutor (and/or the victim’s family) to file criminal charges against her in the US. She could then have been tried in the US.
All too many American tourists abroad unwittingly commit felonies (or are lured into committing felonies) according to local laws, the classic case being buying an antique in a Turkish and Egyptian market without an export license. If caught at the airport, your only choices are pay a huge bribe or spend 15 years in a Cairo jail.
I could mention other pitfalls but I believe there are roughly 100,000 US citizens serving sentences abroad.
Conversely, the US criminal justice system also has a rather bad reputation abroad (warranted or not isn’t the issue), mostly because of its reliance on plea bargaining and prison informers, not mentioning police corruption and prosecutorial misconduct. It is however tops when it comes to forensic evidence, but mostly in high profile cases.
I feel sorry for Ms. Knox’s family.
Calouste
@Yutsano:
Let’s say that I was rather dissappointed in the quality and content of the post and worded that as strongly as I thought the lack of quality merited. But apparently Doug has a bit of a problem with people who disagree with him, however harshly worded.
And frankly, as a European (although living in the States) I think Americans should better keep their mouths shut about crimes committed by the state for a decade or two.It’s not like they much of a high ground on that. Mote, beam, eye etc.
Calouste
@Lupin:
Any evidence for the US being No 1 in forensics, except the big foam finger? I personally doubt there is much of a gap between the US and other Western countries in that regard.
Yutsano
@Calouste: Consider this your lesson in how exactly the First Amendment works. You can say whatever the hell you want, but you’d better be ready to also have that comment criticized. Free speech cuts both ways, you have to deal with the fact someone won’t like what you say and express that displeasure.
Little Dreamer
@DougJ:
Excuse me if I sound apathetic about this. I’m really sorry for the situation this young woman is going through, but, the fact remains, she’s not being tried in a U.S. court. If someone finds themselves in a foreign country accused of a crime, their trial will not go by U.S. justice system practices. She is at the mercy of Italy, and unless our embassy can get her some legal counsel that can help her out somehow, she’s going to be in Italy for a long time. That’s just the way it is.
Calouste
@Yutsano:
Comments critized, fine. Arguments refuted, fine. Too bad that Doug couldn’t be bothered with either of those and went straight for the personal insult.
And please spare me that sanctimonious First Amendment bullshit, free speech exists in other parts of the world as well.(Except that it usually doesn’t apply to lies and hate speech, like it does in the US)
scudbucket
Well, I read a bunch of stuff from the BBS, Seattle, her prison diary, etc.
1. She apparently admitted to being in the flat at the time of the murder when the cops first arrived
2. Her story changed during the interrogation, as did her boyfriend’s.
3. She flat out lied that her boss Patrick was the murderer and that she heard him kill her (she was in the kitchen with her fingers in her ears)
4. There is no material evidence to connect her to the crime scene, though the police claim that she and the other suspect removed it before they arrived
5. Another man was convicted of the murder based on DNA/fingerprint matches, and there was a window broken inwards two rooms away from Kercher’s room.
Hard to say here what happened, but this girl is definitely a bit loony/not quite all there. Her diaries give no indication that she understands the magnitude of the trouble she is in, or the seriousness of the charges. As an example, she writes in prison – days after she was subjected to over 30 hours of interrogation – that suddenly she remembers what happened that night, and there is no way she could possibly be accused by the police because whatever they say about her is simply not true: because she remembers now. She was at her boyfriends, even though he claims he was alone that night.
scudbucket
BBS ??? Ha! BBC
Lupin
@Calouste:
I’m only repeating what I was told by French criminal attorneys.
One could easily make the case, however, that not every murder trial is allocated top forensic resources.
Ian
@DougJ:
Psshah Sir, to you’re inane voice of reason. It foileth the most indubious of my schemes.
Lupin
@Yutsano:
To be honest, I think Calouste has a point. I too find DougJ’s original post lame.
Yes, there may have a miscarriage of justice (or not, it’s hard to tell), but that happens everywhere, including in the US. To segue from there to something like Shame on Italy is ridiculous.
And responding to some mild criticism by telling someone to go and take a hike is juvenile.
Sorry, Doug, I really really like your posts, but this one isn’t quite up to your standards.
bago
Young, dumb, and pretty is a way to go far in life. You would be amazed at what you can get away with. You might even get chosen for VP.
soonergrunt
Amanda Knox was charged with Murder, but was tried and convicted of being American.
Calouste
@soonergrunt:
And Raffaele Sollecito was tried and convicted of being Italian?
Try harder.
Calouste
Oh, and also as opposed to being acquitted of 20 counts of homocide in Italy on the grounds of being American?
valdemar
Unlike in the US, Italy’s national courts might not have the last say. This one could go to the European Court of Human Rights, as it seems Knox has been deprived of hers.
And yes, it’s a very good thing that Italy doesn’t have the death penalty.
dSquib
Without commenting too much on the particulars, which I’m new to…
Domestic citizens finding themselves facing jail time in a foreign country victim of a perceived (rightly or wrongly) injustice tends to strike a particular chord of horror and mania with the mass media, and people in general. There’s almost an underlying current of assumption that this must be part of some ongoing cultural/diplomatic conflict, and speculation abounds of what the perceived injustice may be retaliation for. The British press is particularly guilty of this. I find it quite repellent the way these things become instantly politicised, regardless of the circumstances, more so even than celebrity trials.
It creates a really weird spectacle and feeling where I just don’t believe anyone can be trusted, layman or expert, to be in any way objective about the thing.
lou
See for yourself just how medieval the Italian police and judicial system can be — read Doug Preston’s “The Monster of Florence”:
http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Florence-Douglas-Preston/dp/0446581194
There seems to be some fertile ground for the likes of Mussolini and fascism in the minds of Italians.
Xanthippas
Yeah, and also countries invade other countries for completely dubious and specious reasons. Nothing to blog about here.
Yeah, too bad he went straight for the personal instead of carefully refuting your well-reasoned argument.
Marc
There is already someone else serving 30 years for murder in this case. The people attacking this young woman should look up the Dreyfus affair – which was severely complicated by the “odd attitude” of the innocent suspect. This may surprise you, but people who are falsely accused of serious crimes sometimes act suspiciously. They sometimes blame other innocent people out of desperation. They sometimes act inappropriately. They sometimes aren’t even nice people.
But sanctimonious twits diagnosing them from a distance can act as judge, jury, and executioner and convict them because they don’t conform to some stereotype of what an innocent person ought to be like.
What I’m hearing about doesn’t sound like justice, and the fact that no one has invented even a plausible link to someone already convicted (with plenty of physical evidence) should give you pause if you have room to think about things.
General Winfield Stuck
@Calouste:
Did you even read the Times article Dougj linked to to support his critique of the Italian justice system? The author likened it to the Salem Witch trials, and it would hard to dispute that with the psycho sexual babble and “Lucerfina” garbage the prosecution delivered to the jury, with the judges looking on.
And if you are going to cite anecdotal cases from the past , such as the skilift disaster, then the entire history for Europe v. America is fair game. And though Europe has changed in recent decades and centuries, it’s history is neck deep in the blood of innocents, from forced colonization around the globe, to fascism and mass murder. Don’t go there, it is the here and now we are dealing with and both countries have dark chapters.
The post is about an international story, that has more than a little America bashing, that you are carrying on with in your dumbass comments.
I generally don’t indulge in commenting on these type stories, but the misconduct and circus like lynching of this American has political overtones of some kind of misplaced extraction of justice on the evil Americans.
It is about the evidence presented, and the outrageous conduct of the Italian justice system, that wouldn’t pass muster in the darkest parts of the planet. It is not about whether you, I ,or the Pope “thinks” this woman is guilty, or not.
AhabTRuler
Really? Not even in Texas?
JD Rhoades
Yeah, if you think “this couldn’t happen here” I can tell you…you lie to the cops or even change your story, for whatever reason, and they’ll charge you with the crime, in the face of all other evidence. I see it happen all the time.
JD Rhoades
@lou:
And keep in mind that co-author Mario Spezi was locked up for investigating the police bungling and was accused of being the killer himself.
These people are not right.
AhabTRuler
Whom? Lawyers?
Hmmm, I can agree with that.
Lupin
@General Winfield Stuck:
Congratulations for coming across as the archetypal Ugly American.
General Winfield Stuck
@Lupin:
Go fuck yourself and go back to Kos to wank. You didn’t challenge anything I said of substance. And the same goes for you Ahab.. I criticize my country when it’s needed. Not as a matter of dropped dogma shitpiles on it because it is fashionable from left wing wankers. I am sick and tired of your shit. If you haven’t already, why don;t you pack up your shit and move to Italy. And when you get railroaded because you are American, don’t come whining to me.
JD Rhoades
@Lupin:
Oh, bullshit. Calouste’s comment was meant to imply that it’s okay for an American to be wrongfully convicted becuase of an outrageous verdict where American service people were wrongfully acquitted. That’s simply moronic and Stuck was right to point it out.
lou
What strikes me about the Italian judicial system in these cases is just how similar they are to so called “trials” held against the resistance in Nazi Germany and Communist East Europe and Russia. The democratization process reflecting fundamental human rights never quite made it to the judicial systems in some of the liberated “free” countries.
General Winfield Stuck
@AhabTRuler:
I will admit that Texas is a special case of nuttery. But I doubt even there a prosecutor would get away with inquisition like crap the one in Italy got away with.
AhabTRuler
@General Winfield Stuck: Yeah, I guess that I deserved that for my “left-wing” contention that there was a touch of tribalist hypocrisy in your position (and this thread). Lord knows that it is impossible to view both the American and Italian judicial system as extremely flawed.
Remember, it’s evil when they do it, but it’s a neccessary evil when it’s American(TM).
Oh, and GFY, yourself. Learn to take some criticism without going apeshit. Cheers!
AhabTRuler
Perhaps, but I contend that the nut doesn’t fall far from the American tree.
General Winfield Stuck
@AhabTRuler:
Sometimes we do evil, or our government does. And you make my point. None of that has anything to do with Amanda Knox and this case, except as tribal wankers like you and Lupin try to make it. And stop whining yourself about me being mean to you. If you can’t take it then maybe you stay out of it.
And I tend to get apeshit when people call me an ugly American, with out making any argument to my original comment which was reasoned and civil. The comment was dumbass, however, and a huge fucking straw man.
General Winfield Stuck
@AhabTRuler:
Don’t you have an American flag to burn, or something.
Scott de B.
So your best argument is “she must be guilty of something, so let’s convict her of murder.” That’s it, huh? Your absolute best. Couldn’t do any better.
moe99
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010429527_knoxreaction05m.html
Obviously her family and friends think she’s guilty. Not.
For those of you who haven’t read about the case, there’s a whole boatload of stories from the Times listed on the right hand side of this one. Happy reading.
General Winfield Stuck
@Scott de B.:
Amanda Knox getting railroaded thusly gets to pay for America”s sins. I am not okay with that. If she had gotten a fair trial, it would be different. But she didn’t/
General Winfield Stuck
Just ask that right wing neo con devil Maria Cantwell about the case.
What an ugly American she is.
AhabTRuler
I cannot imagine why people would think that you are a knee-jerk, reactionary dick!
Now to the main: I think that there are gigantic holes in the prosecutors case, and I think that Knox was a pretty weak defendant. I also think that the Italian courts aren’t alone in being unjust, and I have a hard time ascribing that injustice to simple anti-Americanism.
But go ahead, call me a hippy. That’ll learn me good!
Ajay
Totally fucked up. Insane. It shouldnt have been brought to trial. Jury overthere must consist of fools.
I watched the staircase murder documentary few weeks ago and was shocked about the verdict. That was in our great country(NC) and I really dont know if jury trial is the way to go:
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=96693&page=1
General Winfield Stuck
@AhabTRuler:
nope, I am the hippy, don’t know what you are. If you had made some case like with this case, instead of a smart ass remark, then maybe I wouldn’t have included you with Lupin. But you didn’t. And the meta point that the Italian courts aren’t the only one with injustice is utterly irrelevant to this case, except to excuse the unjustice.
And I don’t care what ideologues think of me. Such as you.
AhabTRuler
@General Winfield Stuck: Just pie me and get over your bad self.
General Winfield Stuck
@AhabTRuler:
No, I like you, always have. But you have made it a practice of disagreeing with comments I make with tepid short smart aleck retorts. That sometimes brings out the asshole in me. Not my first preference, and not proud of it in any way, but don’t apologize for it either.
Joel
Sounds like the prosecutor was a douche, but I thought there was pretty decent evidence in the case. Didn’t the couple try to finger someone else for the crime, too?
Lisa
Yeah Joel, she did. She may not have done it, but she was willing to let “the black guy” rot in jail forever for this crime. I am deeply unsympathetic to this fuckface bitch. But I still think it is wrong to convict someone of murder because they are a lying asshole. You convict someone of murder because there is incontrovertible evidence that they committed murder, not because they are a fucker who would throw the nearest black guy under the bus to get themselves out of a tight spot (and she is definitely that fucker).
AhabTRuler
@General Winfield Stuck:
Nope. I haven’t made it a “practice,” you just take things really personally.
Shell
Ugh, remember that Nanny trial a few years back? She was British, working for a Boston couple and she was accused of, negligent homicide, I think, of their baby. The more lurid british tabloids were insisting that she couldn’t get a free trial in Boston. Cause there’s so many people there of irish descent. And the irish hate the english.
Seriously.
General Winfield Stuck
@AhabTRuler:
Well then, if you believe this, then maybe you shouldn’t respond to my comments with short smart ass retorts devoid of substance, and then whine about it, because I won’t be doing it any different.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@JD Rhoades:
Yes, I know this to be true, for a fact. It’s bundled in there with the phrase “anything you say can and will be used against you.”
Bobby Thomson
@Scott de B.:
To the contrary. I think the fact that she made up fictional accounts about a murder strongly suggests that she is guilty of murder.
The prosecution in this case behaved horribly, though, and she did not receive even minimal due process. There absolutely should be a new trial.
Gwangung
@Joel: That’s not evidence, though. It’s highly suggestive, but worthless without corroborating physical evidence.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
So, there is just one approved way of responding to you?
Is there a booklet, or online guide?
AhabTRuler
Stuck, if my comment was so “devoid of substance,” then how come you then responded (amongst the silly bile):
General Winfield Stuck
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
Back to wanking out of context quotes I see. Here is the complete one.
For internet tough guy runts like you, anything goes, always.
AhabTRuler
@AhabTRuler: FYWP.
General Winfield Stuck
@AhabTRuler:
Put a link to that quote, don’t know where it came from.
BFR
What I’ve learned from this is that if you are a foreign national, like say a British nanny in Boston or an American college student in Italy and you have a run in with the authorities, then you should do everything in your power to avoid cooperating with the authorities.
If you have the means, you should get on the next flight out of the country.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@General Winfield Stuck:
You are without a doubt the biggest fucking idiot on the tubes today.
This isn’t a college class with footnoting rules, Stuck. It’s a goddam blog. Snips are quoted simply to show a reference back to the original which is right there and can be read by anyone. I don’t have to quote your whole fucking post, you goddam piece of shit.
My question was clear and required just a simple answer. Are you asserting that people may not respond to you except in a certain approved way? Length of post, congeniality, etc? What are the rules?
Just for context, I myself always establish those rules clearly. For example, I won’t tolerate having words put into my mouth, having someone else try to restate and distort what I said. What I said is what I said, not what somebody else says I meant to say. That’s an appropriate rule, AFAIC. If somebody has a problem with that rule, let him argue the matter and make a case. Otherwise, the flame is on.
You seem to be having a lot of contention around here lately. What’s wrong, are you having a bout of spastic colon and not feeling up to par?
Why are people being so mean to you? Follow my example. I am just a smelly farm animal who farts ten cubic feet of gas at a time, shits constantly, pisses on your feet if you are standing too close to me, and eats your lawn. And yet, people pamper me and take me to the state fair. It’s all in the presentation, know what I mean?
General Winfield Stuck
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
You are fucking liar. My comment in context was specific to Ahab, and taking quotes out of context that changes it’s meaning is bush league trolling. As far as the rest of your cartoon like blather,
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@General Winfield Stuck:
I can’t take a quote out of context when the original is six inches away on the same page, you worthless stupid fucking horse’s ass. The context is right there for all to see. How fucking stupid are you anyway?
Citizen Alan
I don’t really know much about this case, but for those of you appalled at how awful Italian justice is, google “West Memphis 3.” A trio of goth kids from Arkansas (one of whom had been diagnosed with some mental problems) were convicted of murdering three children on virtually no evidence at all except for the fact that they were non-Christian, they liked heavy metal, and they were generally considered creepy. One is on death row and the other two received multiple life sentences.
More recently, here in Mississippi, the Supreme Court has only recently freed a kid who was convicted in 2003 when he was only 13 years old. The conviction was based entirely on a coerced confession, an accusation from a co-defendant hoping to escape the death penalty, oh and best of all, “expert testimony” from a quack who claimed to state with medical certainty that the bullet wounds in the deceased’s body “proved” that two people were holding the rifle when it was fired.
General Winfield Stuck
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
LMAO. This is rich even for you and saying it in the same comment as doing the very same thing to someone else is just priceless TZ douchebaggery.
When are you going to stop this dick measuring contest that is in your head about me. It is getting quite absurd,
Here now. I DON”T CARE WHAT YOU THINK!!
General Winfield Stuck
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
First thing you got right. Let’s celebrate.
Corner Stone
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
This is like asking how many angels can dance on the tip of a fried Snickers at a state fair.
New Yorker
Yup, I know about them (apparently Eddie Vedder of Pearl Jam is a big supporter of them, and he spoke about them during a PJ concert I checked out a few years ago).
Radley Balko (I know, I know) said that one of the negative aspects of the Duke lacrosse case is that it makes it seem like rogue prosecutors get their just desserts when that’s usually not the case. I get the feeling that the three men accused by the crazy hooker might be in jail now if not for the fact that the media and some PC Duke faculty made such asses of themselves and turned the thing into a subject of national attention.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@General Winfield Stuck:
You don’t care what I think? Yet you never fail to get into it with me when I challenge you. Hm.
You see the little linky thing up there with your handle in it, Stuck? That’s a link back to your post, to which I am responding. Why would someone re-type your entire message when the original is right there and conveniently linked in the response?
What do you think the blogowners put that little round arrow on the comments for? TO REFER BACK AND ESTABLISH CONTEXT WITHOUT HAVING TO QUOTE THE WHOLE THING, and as a courtesy to the reader to establish unambiguously what is being responded to.
We don’t need any instructions from you on how to do this, Stuck. Just try to answer the question. Are you asserting that there is only one correct way to respond to you? If so, can you spell out those rules? That might save you a lot of argument, which you claim to dislike. I mean, you’re a guy who claims that it’s all nonsense, but you did this the other day after spending four hours arguing with a cow.
BFR
@Citizen Alan:
Yeah, I don’t think the Italian justice system should be viewed as worse than the US system. Prosecutors are prosecutors and many would resort to character assasinations if it helps their case. Foreigners are a particularly easy target since there’s often large differences in cultural norms and idiomatic expressions.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@General Winfield Stuck:
Yes, I got it right, and you got it wrong. Nobody has to quote your entire post to establish context. The context is already established.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
We cows learn early on that dick measuring is futile. Our dicks are pretty much out there for the world to see. Why are you hiding yours?
AngusTheGodOfMeat
Sorry, please substitute “male ungulates” for “cows” in my previous.
I am typing with a hoof, give me a fucking break.
General Winfield Stuck
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
LOL, Now you think I am on trial and need to answer a little pusbag like you asking a made up question in your cowards brain. Well, Okay.
Godmeat? You can have my answer now, if you like.
NOTHING>
General Winfield Stuck
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
I don’t own a microscope. Most others don’t either.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@General Winfield Stuck:
So, what are you hiding? Are you ashamed of your member?
Not me. My balls and dick are just on display 24 hours a day. I have nothing to hide. I have no control over their size. Hell, I have never even seen them myself. I have to rely on others to tell me about them.
thucydides
Sorry to break it to you, but, as others on this thread have said, Americans do not have the right to criticize anybody else’s justice system. Once you include the racism, the parallel military tribunal system, the endemically corrupt and militaristic police, the death penalty, the culture of litigation, and every thing else, you people are merely throwing stones in a glass house. You weren’t there – you have no idea what happened – show STFU
gocart mozart
@lou:
What strikes me about Lou is that he is an idiot. The Italian judicial system is like Nazi Germany! Really Lou? One can say the same thing about the American judicial system but that would also make one an idiot.
Italians are not anti-American. Most thought Bush was a baffoon but then most civilized people did.
Lastly, I don’t know if she is guilty or innocent but none of us sat through the trial and heard all the evidence. Someone upthread said that newspaper accounts of trials are rarely accurate. Anyone who professes certainty about guilt or innocence solely based on sensationalistic news accounts is a fool.
General Winfield Stuck
@Corner Stone:
Oh noes, it’s Robin. Did you bring the Batmobile son.
I am done with you two clowns. Got better things to do than trade insults with douchebags.
And TZ, Here is another answer to you, and one you will get it from now on whenever,
I DON”T FUCKING CARE WHAT YOU THINK. now and forever.
General Winfield Stuck
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
You are the only cow among us. Bye now.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@General Winfield Stuck:
Don’t puff yourself up. You’re just an ass, making posts that annoy people, and they speak up. That’s all.
Try to climb down off that Victim Soapbox thing, dude. What are you, a Republican?
General Winfield Stuck
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
One last parting gift to you. You are right that you are the best asshole on Balloon Juice. I could never achieve your perfection in this area. To the King, I salute you and are your humble peasant servant to the Anus God.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@General Winfield Stuck:
Bye now? Do you imagine that you are the bouncer at the door here?
Don’t make me call in the herd. Right now you have a frisky animal on your hands. I don’t think you want to see a stampede.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@General Winfield Stuck:
Heh.
So, what area do you strive for excellence in, Stuck? I’d give you an A for sucking up to the hosts, for example. We are all good at something. Don’t hide your light under a bushel.
General Winfield Stuck
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
Would you like to meet at a bar for drinks. On me. Safford?
Just say the word.
New Yorker
Uh, no. Injustice is injustice, and just because my country is capable of it doesn’t mean I have no right to point it out elsewhere. Do the citizens of Chile have a right to criticize Bush torture policies? I think they do, but it would seem that the fact that they were ruled by a right-wing military junta (known for its torture and disappearances) a mere 20 years ago means they have no right to criticize, in your calculus.
I don’t know the facts of what happened in the Amanda Knox case, but the whole thing looks rotten to me, especially since they already caught someone who appears (to borrow from Mel Brooks) incredibly guilty.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@General Winfield Stuck:
I live in Phoenix. Why would I want to go all the way to Safford?
Also, I can only have one drink, doctor’s orders. So I am not much fun as a date. Mostly I will drink out of the trough.
But sure, George and Dragon, Central Avenue. Just say when. First round on me.
General Winfield Stuck
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
That is what I thought.
New Yorker
thucydides,
You could take this much further. Do I have a right to criticize the US military? I’ve never served in any capacity, and there are many people in this country who seem to think that only people who have served have any right to criticize the military. I consider such people borderline fascists, since this is republic under a civilian government, and said civilian government controls the military, not the other way around.
General Winfield Stuck
@General Winfield Stuck:
Safford is halfway. Seems fair to me. What you can’t drive a hundred miles? maybe a friend could drive you.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@General Winfield Stuck:
Oh, now I get it. “Stuck” means literally stuck. Are you stuck in Safford?
Well, if you hitchhike, you can be here in about 3 hours. Just remember to shut up when you get a ride, if you start talking you will get thrown out of the car and that will just prolong your trip.
Corner Stone
@General Winfield Stuck: You’re too damn dim to understand that everyone’s laughing at you.
Here, let me help you out:
Everyone’s laughing at you.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@General Winfield Stuck:
Safford is halfway? Hmm. You live in Las Cruces?
Well, I have to arrange a truck and a cattle trailer. That takes time.
Safford is such a dump. I’d just as soon go all the way to Las Cruces.
Anyway, you are going to have to wait until after the first of the year. I am having some surgery soon. Dew claw removal, or something.
General Winfield Stuck
@AngusTheGodOfMeat:
No I live near Silver City, NM. Safford is halfway. Are you afwaid, tough guy?
Joel
Can we lock this thread? This shit is ridiculous.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@General Winfield Stuck:
Oh sure, make fun of my hooves. Have you TRIED driving with a hoof?
General Winfield Stuck
Hopefully, they will remove your giant asshole, and we can have some peace around here, without it spreading feces on the threads. That would be nice. Tell me it’s true, tinkerbell.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@General Winfield Stuck:
You live up there? Wow. Spectacular country. I have grazed near there.
Yeah, I’m afraid. I’m afraid that I am lazy and cheap, and there is no way I am coming to Safford, one of the suckiest towns in the region, to have you buy me a drink. If you want to enjoy my company, hook up with Great Lakes out of Grant County Airport, and connect in ABQ. You will be here in no time.
General Winfield Stuck
@Joel:
I didn’t start it and never do with this jackasse, I ignore ignore ignore. If you want it to stop, then decide which. As it is clear that TZ has decided to shit on every goddamn thread until I leave from getting tired of it. Rather than fuck up this great blog, I may well do that. But you will still have TZ to contend with, and the next commenter he decides has to go, or he will shut down the blog by queering every thread until it happens.
This isn’t new. It’s been going on well before I got here two and a half years ago, and will continue after I go. I just happen to be a stubborn mark, but everyone has a point where it’s just not worth it. I am right at that now.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@General Winfield Stuck:
You really aren’t very good at this.
thucydides
New Yorker –
Your analogies are fallacious. Criticizing the military as a civilian is precisely what one is supposed to do, given the fact that military institutions are subject to the control of civilians. In fact, allowing the military to be anything other than a tool for civil control (as seems to have happened in the U.S., with some horrible implications for the rest of us) is, usually, a huge problem. Criticizing the justice system of another country based on both an incomplete knowledge of the facts at hand, a visceral reaction to highly slanted news coverage on the part of so-called elite American newspapers like the NYT, some sort of inadequate standard of “justice” (which you clearly believe all people everywhere must naturally perceive as such – presumably the same one you Americans so blithely lecture the rest of us about), and a really arrogant set of completely false and hypocritical comparisons (“if this was the U.S., she would be found innocent” – yeah, probably because she is rich and white; maybe what drives you crazy is she couldn’t buy her way out of the situation as is so common in your system, eh?). So again, unless you actually saw what happened, and can unequivocally make some sort of reasonable argument about “truth” and “justice”, then STFU. We non-Americans are really, really tired of hearing you lecture the rest of us.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
Um, we will need to see the post and thread counts on that, Stuck. If you don’t post to at least twice as many threads, and make five times as many posts as I do, probably more, then I will eat my ear tag. What a lying piece of shit you are.
And, ignore? You spent FOUR HOURS arguing with me just a couple days ago. When did the ignoring start? After I mentioned your famous “thriving democracy in Afghanistan” gaffe again?
AngusTheGodOfMeat
It’s been going on since you lied about me for two straight days, Stuck, and then ran away when you couldn’t think up any new passive aggressive bullshit to cover it up and change the subject.
Just to set the record straight.
Little Dreamer
@Xanthippas:
Except that is not what we are talking about here, your point is? Are we at war with Italy and I was unaware of it?
MNPundit
@lou: The irony is that Mussolini was probably the least corrupt pol they’ve had in a century.
Emma
I know nothing about this case, but as I read through these comments I came away with two pieces of information. (1)she’s weird, she’s probably a bitch in some ways, and she might or might not be guilty but the trial was a farce and (2) Americans aren’t supposed to criticize other countries because ours isn’t perfect. However, citizens of other countries can take a dump on ours because theirs…. well, theirs are better for some reason which nobody can bother to explain.
Did I get that right?
Little Dreamer
@General Winfield Stuck:
I always thought you were a man, not a sniveling victim crying like a woman. (I say this as a woman who seldom, if ever, cries here).
Man up!
Brett
Yes, heaven forfend that trials based on evidence instead of personal attacks and weird-ass pseudopsychological shit be supported while the latter criticized. You’re damn right I’m going to call you out on that if I read about it, and if you don’t like it, you can go fuck yourself.
All I’m seeing here is some whiny, thin-skinned defensive troll refusing to actually counter the proof and arguments that have been provided as to why this trial was a farce, instead saying “Waaaahhh! The mean Americans are picking on us!”
Speaking of which, where the fuck do you get off telling Americans not to criticize this when you feel free to launch wave after wave of personal attacks? If you actually believe in your own advice, then shut the fuck up and leave the arguments to people who don’t believe in such stupidity.
We’ve done both. Try reading the whole thread again instead of knee-jerk defensiveness.
Oh, boo fucking hoo. You never hesitate to criticize America or launch plenty of personal attacks and slander, so why should we give a shit about whether you get butt-hurt when someone criticizes judicial ineptitude abroad?
thucydides
Emma – with great power comes great responsibility. What Americans do has very serious effects on everyone else in the world (financial decisions, military aggression, etc.). What Ghana does is, frankly, much less important. So yeah, pretty much. Americans need to clean up their own s*** before trying to wipe up ours.
Little Dreamer
Well, I, for one, am looking forward to this trip to Safford, so if I can talk him into it, we’ll get back to you Stuck. It will have to wait until after his surgery though. I only want to do this because the prospect of meeting you and seeing what you are really like is an interesting proposition.
I don’t think he wants to go, but I’ll work on him. ;)
MJ
Seriously guys, can we just stop going back and forth with “Flame Wars 09”? I come to BJ everyday to get away from teh daily internet crazy. The intelligent commentary here usually offers internet nomads like myself a reprieve from the caustic b.s. that permeates the GOS, or on the increasingly ridiculous Fluffington Post.
Can’t we all just get along and save our flames for the Notorious B.O.B.?
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@Little Dreamer:
Surgery, and then a trip to Safford, and then meeting Stuck?
Wow, the trifecta.
My cup runneth over! So to speak.
Little Dreamer
@MJ:
MJ, this place has been flame war city since before I arrived here in 2005. You really want us to change it now? There is plenty of entertainment before the flame wars start, so if you don’t like those, just click on another thread and there will be peace over there. You should be glad you weren’t here when we had Darrell.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@Little Dreamer:
I thought Stuck was Darrell?
New Yorker
Um, you might want to read the multiple posts of mine in which I state that I don’t know the facts of the case, and thus I’m not rushing to judgment about whether she is guilty of innocent.
What the fuck are you talking about? I have no idea what the verdict would be in this country. And injustice is injustice, whether it happens to a Mexican laborer picking lettuce in California, or whether it happens to an affluent lacrosse player at an elite school like Duke. Where the fuck have I ever advocated for muti-tiered justice? Maybe I’ve never said as much here, but I firmly believe that one of the greatest outrages of the drug war is the multi-tiered justice system that has developed out of it.
And what the fuck evidence do you have that Ms. Knox is “rich”? She seemed to have come from a normal middle-class background much like the one I grew up in. My sister spend time studying abroad in the UK, and I can vouch for my parents not being “rich”.
It’s nice to know that young Americans fall into 2 categories to you schmucks: if we go over there to study in college, we’re spoiled rich brats. If we don’t do it, we’re ignorant Bush-voting yokels who probably couldn’t find Austria on a map.
I don’t know what the chip on your shoulder is all about, but if you’re pissed that your grandparents helped the Nazis round up the local Jews until the day the 82nd airborne liberated your home town, that ain’t my problem. Go see a therapist instead.
gocart mozart
Angus and the General chill out and listen to an italian version of this song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o4pw_tm9LE
This is more modern.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZKSdHIsZLE
gocart mozart (self appointed minister of Italian/American relations
Sorry, this is the full clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpyxHah_d80&NR=1
thucydides
I would like to thank Brett and New Yorker for proving my point about how arrogant many Americans are. I also want to thank New Yorker’s sister as well as Amanda Knox for being such great ambassadors of the American spirit and, especially, American wealth. Because where I come from, the opportunity to f••• Italian boys in Perugia would make you wealthy. You guys are really stand-up Americans and I have changed my mind about everything. Go USA! Idiots.
gwangung
And you’re proving their point on how stupid and arrogant YOU are.
“Where I come from” shows how parochial and narrow minded you are. There are dozens of countries where middle class people (say, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan) where more middle class citizens can do the same. Wealthy, my ass.
Wanker.
gocart mozart
@thucydides: Thucydides, you are also making wild assumptions.
I don’t know if Amanda Knox is rich or middle class but speaking as someone whose sister studied abroad in Florence and married a guy from Rome and who has relatives in Rome, I am a bit pissed off by this knee jerk anti-Italian bigotry. No criminal justice system is perfect, God knows ours isn’t, but Italy’s is more or less equel to ours. Not having studied the trial, I have no idea if Ms Knox received a fair trial or not so I will withhold judgment.
Having said that, I am troubled by many of the comments which allege that Italians hate Americans (Bush excepted). Nothing could be further from the truth. American music, television, movies and culture is greatly admired in Italy. My Italian neices’ favorite singer is Mylei Cyrus ;)
Also, some seem to be forgetting that the other two who were convicted were Italian citizens. Was this anti- Italian bias on the part of the jury?
gil mann
I’m sorry, did someone who posts under the name of an Ancient Greek historian just call someone else “arrogant?”
What, is B.O.B. spoofing snotty Europeans now?
New Yorker
Boy these comments really convince me that there’s not the slightest possibility that knee-jerk anti-Americanism might have had something to do with Ms. Knox’s conviction……
gocart mozart
@New Yorker:
New Yorker, there is no such thing as knee anti-Americanism among Italians. See my post @ 222.
gocart mozart
Knee jerk. Scuzi.
New Yorker
I’ll take your word for it, and in my experience with Europeans, both in the States and over there, they’re not the effete America-haters that Sean Hannity would have you believe by any stretch. I found the Viennese to be very friendly to the point where I was embarrassed that my smattering of German wasn’t enough to strike up random conversations with strangers.
I’ll go back to what I said before Thucydides began ranting about the Great Satan: I don’t know what the facts of the case are, and I don’t know whether Ms. Knox is guilty or not, but I have grave doubts about this case, and I would have the same doubts if the case had been tried in lower Manhattan.
Miscarriages of justice can happen in any democracy, and that’s what concerns me.
Emma
Thucydides: Emma – with great power comes great responsibility. What Americans do has very serious effects on everyone else in the world (financial decisions, military aggression, etc.). What Ghana does is, frankly, much less important. So yeah, pretty much. Americans need to clean up their own s*** before trying to wipe up ours.
Really? May I point out that while America has been a country for a relatively short time, European countries have been fucking the rest of the world for a much longer time? If we’re going to argue relative morality, I’ll put up your 1500 or so years against our less than 300. Crusades, opium wars, massive genocide in Africa, not to mention what you did to each other and several million of your fellow human beings not so long ago. Europe has its hands in blood up to the elbows, so let’s not throw around accusations.
We are all flawed, and pointing out that the Italian system of justice is screwed up is merely commenting on an obvious fact that even the Italians recognize. I am willing to listen to European criticism when it’s thoughtful, and reasoned, and there is plenty of that and very often I agree with it. But don’t come here to shove your superiority up my nose and boast about how clean your skirts are.
gil mann
Actually, y’know what? Do. Please do. The last decade or so has rendered me incapable of feeling true patriotism, so I gotta settle for the kind that kicks in when foreigners call us assholes.
Hey, kinda OT, but since we’re talkin’ U.S./Italy here, does anybody know why we’re the ones whose political process is held hostage by the Vatican?
gocart mozart
@Emma:
True but America has been gaining ground in the last 50 years.
gocart mozart
@gil mann:
Please explain in more detail.
Emma
GoCart Mozart: we sure have, much to my despair. I’m not trying to make any sort of claim on behalf of the United States, not even to mount a defense. But I am so tired of people whose countries behaved like the fucking Horde in the past telling me how superior they are…
None of us are. None. Every time a country becomes powerful, and the wrong people get their hands on that power, terrible things happen. It’s not our “special curse” any more than we have “special blessings.”
New Yorker
Bingo. We’re all human beings, and we’re all prone to human failures and sins. This is why the whole concept of American Exceptionalism is such horseshit to me, but it’s also why I bristle at holier-than-thou people like Thucydides.
I happen to think the political system in the US is better than the system in North Korea or Iran. Is it better than the politcal system in Germany? or Japan? or Chile? I don’t know. All I know is that the part of Germany I’ve been to is very nice and I could easily live there. I’ve never been to Japan or Chile.
gocart mozart
Emma, all countrys have flaws including both America and Italy.
I don’t think anyone is. It pisses me off when some Americans say our shit don’t stink, that’s is all.
AhabTRuler
Bingo!
ETA: I can E to the TA! Out of the blue. Unexpected, but not unwelcome.
ETFA: I can even bounce between threads w/o the world crashing. Will wonders never cease?
TruthOfAngels
While I agree that this was a joke of a case, 236 comments and no mention of the Louise Woodward case, which is the closest parallel I can think of?
Even the Massachussetts legal system sucks when the media influence is that heavy.
Little Dreamer
@gil mann:
Because we don’t have kings like Henry VIIIth telling the Bishop of Rome to shove his control up his ass?
gil mann
Okay.
Emma
goCart Mozart: You weren’t. Check the STFU from some of the others… including the one I responded to. I have no objection to anyone saying our shit stinks — god knows I’ve been saying for so many years that it feels like a millennia — but I do object to people who make believe that because our shit stinks we should not notice theirs….
General Winfield Stuck
@Little Dreamer:
@Little Dreamer:
And Batwoman shows up to save batman’s manhood. We have the dynamic trio, But where is Robin? You clowns are a trip as we used to say. You want to meet me. Cole has my email address. If not you can get it from my blog
When you show up which will be wearing a skirt and which one will be hiding behind it.? Just so I know. tough guys, LOL.
These yahoos are yours Cole. Looks like forever.
General Winfield Stuck
@AhabTRuler:
And Ahab. After thinking about it, your original response to my comment did not warrant adding you on to the “Go Fuck Yourself” meant for Lupin. Sorry bout that dude.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
Huh? Who would want to meet you?
AhabTRuler
No prob! Cheers!
DPirate
The Italians are still pissed off about us kidnapping their citizens. Payback is a bitch, I guess.
Goatslayer
Amanda Knox was found guilty after telling a number of lies and trying to implicate an innocent man. There are better candidates for thinly-veiled, self-pitying nationalist outrage. The Italian jury followed the evidence and their consciences, and reached a reasonable decision. We should congratulate them on having the courage to reject a defense based on emotional blackmail and consistent dishonesty.
Jrod
There is absolutely nothing more pathetic than acting the internet tough guy. “What, you won’t drive to some shithole 100 miles away so we can have a fist fight? What are you, a pussy?”
Seriously, there is nothing lamer.
Mayken
If someone has already mentioned this my apologies but the prosecutor (Judge Mignini) in this case is under indictment for abuse of his office. He’s an conspiracy-theory nutcase who has allowed his people to leak lies to the media on previous cases. He even tried to frame the author Douglas Preston while he was investigating an Italian serial killer (the Monster case) because his findings contradicted Mignini’s pet theory that it was a Satanic cult perpetrating the murders. (And, not incidentally, an officer working for Judge Migini was convicted for falsifying evidence in the Monster case.)
moe99
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/34105647#34105647
Douglas Preston is interviewed at the end of the segment. I think his opnion is worth watching.
And btw, Amanda Knox’s parents are not rich. They are, in fact, bankrupted by trying to save their daughter and are living on the kindness of friends right now.
Will
Here’s a bet I’d be more willing to make.
Within the next year, you’re going to start seeing stories about Italians lamenting the economic impact from a sharp drop in American and other international tourists and students. Italy is a tourist economy, and I’d be shocked if there aren’t a lot of young American girls having second thoughts about that semester in Florence.
morzer
Not a chance, Will. Your average American hasn’t even heard of this case, and would, in any case, have forgotten about it by next summer. That is, of course, assuming that they don’t think that Knox is guilty. I’d guess that about 75% of those who have an opinion hold that view.
Goatslayer
It seems that whoever moderates this blog is now moderating out anyone who thinks Knox is guilty, as she clearly is. Unimpressive.
Little Dreamer
@General Winfield Stuck:
I was just saying that if TZ wanted to, I’d be interested in going along (why should I let him have all the fun?) – but apparently he has no desire to, so I think we won’t be meeting Stuck.
As you can see, he wears the pants in this family (and I like it that way actually).
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@Little Dreamer:
I have no objection to meeting anybody. But there is no way I am taking a trip to Safford. Arizona is full of great places to go, but Safford is not one of them.
Now, if he wants to come to Phoenix, or Prescott, or Tucson, or Bisbee, or Douglas (the latter two being in the same distance range as Safford to where he is), we can talk.
And, I can haz edits?
Brett
All of three of the convicted (including Guede, for whom the evidence that he committed the murder was pretty solid) have appealed the convictions, so we’ll see what happens (or whether or not they’ll be granted the appeal). Hopefully they’ll get a judge who won’t be quite the media-whore shitstain that Mignini was, and Knox’s conviction will get thrown out on a mistrial.
Of course, even if that happens, Knox’s family will still be bankrupt, and Knox will have lost a year or more of her life due to this shit.
The whole thing reminds me of the shit a member at another message board I post at had to go through at the hands of the Australian justice system (although it is different in that he is australian). His father was murdered, and he was arrested for committing it. The prosecution had essentially no evidence linking him, so instead they turned the trial into a giant personal attack on him, and managed to get a conviction – which was promptly over-turned when it finally reached a higher judge.
Will
This has been the CNN/Tabloid/talk show baby of the week. The women in my office, who are largely apolitical, but do have daughters about the age and personality to want to study abroad, are adamant that they will never let them do so in Italy.
Those type of biases, once hardened, don’t go away.
Groucho48
Reading various sources about this, it seems to me that Knox and her boyfriend didn’t get a fair trial and that the murder didn’t occur as the prosecution said it did.
On the other hand, I think it probable that, at the very minimum, Knox was in the apartment while the murder took place and that, while she might not have known murder was going on, she knew the Guede guy was doing something violent, but, she honestly was scare of Guede and did nothing.
I suspect she was even more involved than that. She knew Guede already. I suspect she and her boyfriend were at her apartment and Guede shows up and Knox invites him in. They get high and Guede starts making moves on Kercher. Eventually, Guede drags Kercher off to her room, Knox and her boy friend continue to party. Guede gets violent, Knox and boyfriend continue to party. Screaming and loud noises come from Kercher’s room. Knox and boyfriend continue to party. Guede leaves, Knox and boyfriend find Kercher dead and panic.
The nasty thing, if my suspicion is correct, is that the autopsy determined that Kercher didn’t die immediately. her throat was cut, but no major artery was, so, she slowly bled to death. She might well have lived if either Knox or BF or both had checked up on Kercher when they heard her screaming.
That would explain why both Knox and her BF have such conflicting stories, why the BF’s apartment was cleaned with bleach, why there is some DNA evidence on the knife and bra and why they turned their cell phones off. They probably touched some stuff when they saw Kercher’s body.
I don’t know how much of this would be provable, but, just reading the stories all the participants gave, including, Guede’s, it does make sense.
moe99
My standard in criminal cases, pardon my Americanism here, is that the prosecutor has to prove guilt “beyond a reasonable doubt.” Neither the Italian prosecutor nor anyone on this thread who has postulated a scenario has even come close to meeting this standard. I realize that this is unrealistic, but there you are. /sarcasm off.
moe99
Ps. For those so inclined, you can donate to Amanda’s legal defense here:
http://www.amandadefensefund.org/
http://www.king5.com/news/local/Knox-Family-Financiall-Drained-78608472.html
zorg
There is no doubt that Knox is guilty. There is plenty of evidence of Knox’s guilt.
The DNA
The fingerprints
The bleach
The lies about the bleach
The cell phone records
The lies about the cell phone records
The computer records
The lies about the computer records
Knox’s bloody footprint on the pillow found beneath the victim
The pattern of bloody footprints of the three killers
Why do Knox’s defenders talk only about Italian society and corrupt officials and never mention any of the overwhelming evidence?
zorg
As an American, I would love to vacation in Italy. I have absolutely no fear that I would be wrongly accused of murder there. Anyone who claims they will boycott Italy because of this is seriously deluded and might not be a very good representative of America abroad anyway.
Will
zorg,
Might want to follow the links from the author Preston where he demolishes each one of your points (i.e. trace amounts of bleach are going to be everywhere because every cleaning product known to man has bleach, fingerprints and DNA don’t mean much when they are found in the place where the acussed lived, the knife with the fingerprints and DNA don’t match the murder wounds, the phone and computer records are inconclusive and suspect because the prosecutor has a long record of lying about evidence).
And here’s a fun list:
Pietro Pacciani
Mario Vanni
Giancarlo Lotti
Mario Spezi
Douglas Preston
These are the five men accused by the same prosecutor as convicted Knox of being the serial killer The Monster of Florence. The first three were released because the killer kept killing after they were imprisoned. The last two were released (actually Preston fled the country) because they were just two writers who happened to criticize the prosecutor and then found themselves accused to being the murderer.
The case stinks. The evidence stinks. The motive stinks. The more I read about the “damning” evidence and the prosecutor’s track record, the more convinced I get that the girl had nothing to do with it.
Eric Davidson
Despite the objections raised by her family about the Italian justice system, etc., it is strange that this Knox trial has attracted so much international attention
DPirate
In order to allow Americans to hate Italians, now that they have found our CIA people guilty in absentia, and to deflect interest in same. (Worked at this outlet :) )