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You are here: Home / Right on Schedule

Right on Schedule

by John Cole|  December 14, 20094:40 pm| 175 Comments

This post is in: Assholes

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Me, yesterday:

And if you ditch the compromise and the public option, they will find something else to grandstand about. For Nelson, he’ll be back to abortion. Who knows what Lieberman will start whining about, but I am sure Marshall Wittman is, as we speak, cooking up some fatuous bullshit.

CNN, today:

Wittmann acknowledged Monday that Lieberman, as the vice presidential candidate in 2000, had campaigned then for expanding Medicare.

“This is nine years later, and we have a huge national deficit and a program [Medicare] that analysts indicate is in dire fiscal straits in 2009,” Wittmann said. “If anyone believes that the situation has not changed, they also believe that Tiger Woods is not a controversial figure at this moment.”

Wittmann, like Lieberman, never feels constrained by the truth, because otherwise he would mention that Lieberman was in favor of the medicare buy-in three months ago:

“I was very focused on a group that’s post-50, or maybe post-55,” Lieberman explained to the Connecticut Post. “People who have retired early, or unfortunately, been laid off early, who lose their health insurance or are too young to qualify for Medicare. And what I was proposing is that they have an option to buy into Medicare on the premise that that would be less expensive.”

And while we are at it, this was funny:

Lieberman’s office is welcome to call *me* as opposed to, say, calling people about me. Courage!

Ahh, that famous Bull Moose quote: “Whisper quietly behind people’s backs while you stick it in them.” With Wittmann sniffing around Ezra, you have to wonder how long is before Hiatt has Klein working alongside Froomkin at the HuffPo.

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Reader Interactions

175Comments

  1. 1.

    Notorious P.A.T.

    December 14, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    We’re in dire financial straits! People are suffering! This is no time to adopt a measure that would give relief to struggling people and lower the national deficit!

  2. 2.

    donovong

    December 14, 2009 at 4:44 pm

    Lieberman is a lying, vindictive two-faced asshole of historic proportions. End of story.

  3. 3.

    jibeaux

    December 14, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    Ezra says Tom Harkin is taking a renewed interest in filibuster reform, something he once worked with Lieberman on, in his prior life. The quote is “I pushed it very hard at one time and then things kind of got a little better.”

    I say push it, Tom. Push the filibuster reform or push Lieberman into oncoming traffic, as you like it, but something needs to get pushed.

  4. 4.

    Sentient Puddle

    December 14, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    That and Lieberman/Wittmann have yet to respond to the fact that the CBO scored the senate bill with the public option as deficit-neutral, and sound primed to rate the Medicare buy-in bill as deficit-neutral as well.

    I mean yeah, the about face in three months is still funny as hell, but there’s more fundamental lies happening here.

  5. 5.

    Napoleon

    December 14, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    With Wittmann sniffing around Ezra, you have to wonder how long is before Hiatt has Klein working alongside Froomkin at the HuffPo.

    Not to mention the whole Chuck Lane thing from today with Ezra.

  6. 6.

    The Grand Panjandrum

    December 14, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    With Lieberman, Lincoln, Landrieu, and Ben Nelson representing 4% of the population of this country, it’s time the Senate get rid of the filibuster, or at a minimum reform it as suggested by Tom Harkin. But Lieberman is just a gut-sucking weasel who should be stripped of his chairmanship is this reform legislation ends up completely gutted or fails altogether. If not, then Harry Reid should lose his job.

    ADDED: Some group of Democrats should hold a press conference and threaten THE NUCLEAR OPTION.

  7. 7.

    John PM

    December 14, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    Mr. Cole,

    Your psychic powers are amazing, but I wish you would use them for good rather than for depressing your readers.

  8. 8.

    Notorious P.A.T.

    December 14, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    Lieberman is a lying, vindictive two-faced asshole of historic proportions.

    “No one wants to end the war in Iraq more than I do.” – Joe Lieberman, 10/18/06

    Riiiiiiiight, Joe!

  9. 9.

    Zifnab

    December 14, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    If anyone believes that the situation has not changed, they also believe that Tiger Woods is not a controversial figure at this moment.

    And what is a Wookie doing on Endor? Wookies live on Kyshhyk. This. Does. Not. Make. Sense.

    /Wookie Defense

  10. 10.

    Keith

    December 14, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    I think from now on, I will just refer to the Senator from CT as “Sen. Whittman”

  11. 11.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 4:56 pm

    Holy Joes “principles” change with the season, and sometimes with clean socks.

    H/T Ezra

  12. 12.

    John Cole

    December 14, 2009 at 4:57 pm

    @Napoleon: Missed the Lane thing. What happened.

  13. 13.

    DCPlod

    December 14, 2009 at 4:57 pm

    How touching. I’m glad to know Joe the Schmoe is so concerned about the deficit he helped create when he voted for the Iraq War. But then in today’s conservative Bizarro World, voting for something that will explode the deficit and cost American lives is fiscal conservatism, voting for something which will reduce the deficit and save American lives is spending run amok.

    How much more crap do we have to take from Lieberman before Reid finally grows a pair and shitcans him?

  14. 14.

    geg6

    December 14, 2009 at 4:57 pm

    With Wittmann sniffing around Ezra, you have to wonder how long is before Hiatt has Klein working alongside Froomkin at the HuffPo.

    Well, I’d consider that a step up for Ezra. Not much of one, but definitely a step up. As it is, I have to rely on people all over the Toobz to tell me what Ezra is saying (thankfully, there are plenty out there to help) about HCR as I refuse to give a single page view to the WaPo ever again even if it means I have to get my Ezra-the-hot-wonk-of-the-Internets fix second hand.

  15. 15.

    calipygian

    December 14, 2009 at 5:00 pm

    You think Lieberman is a problem? This story in the WaPo about a Republican Assemblyman in California who is now a target for recall because he voted for Schwatzenegger’s budget containing 12.5B dollars of tax increases is staggering.

    I hate Lieberman as much as the next morally upstanding, decent human being but I hope we don’t become as vicious as the California Republican Party.

  16. 16.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 5:01 pm

    @John Cole:

    here

  17. 17.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 5:03 pm

    @General Winfield Stuck:

    try that again.

  18. 18.

    batgirl

    December 14, 2009 at 5:04 pm

    @geg6: I embarrassingly gave in today to see the Lieberman smackdown personally.

  19. 19.

    Comrade Mary

    December 14, 2009 at 5:06 pm

    @calipygian: Interesting story, but sorry, I don’t see the parallel. Lieberman caucuses (ha!) with the Dems, but he isn’t a Democrat. People aren’t mad at him the way they are at the Blue Dogs because Lieberman doesn’t have the scintilla of a ghost of an excuse of standing on principle. He’s a backstabbing lowlife with no moral center.

  20. 20.

    r€nato

    December 14, 2009 at 5:06 pm

    @calipygian:

    the California GOP, it would seem, has become reduced and distilled to a rather foul and extremely bitter solution.

  21. 21.

    Stooleo

    December 14, 2009 at 5:07 pm

    So, I suggest that we start sending bags of dog shit to Lieberman’s office, just so he is sure of what people think of him.

  22. 22.

    The Grand Panjandrum

    December 14, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    @General Winfield Stuck: That was a gem of a smack down. Chuck probably shouldn’t fuck with people who are smarter than he is, especially when that someone knows a hell of a lot more about the subject at hand than he does. I suspect Chuck has a dog that chases parked cars.

  23. 23.

    GReynoldsCT00

    December 14, 2009 at 5:09 pm

    @John Cole: @batgirl:

    I don’t like to give WaPo clicks either but I keep a shortcut to Ezra’s page… would hope he gets the credit for the traffic. He deserves it.

  24. 24.

    joes527

    December 14, 2009 at 5:09 pm

    OK. I don’t even understand what I don’t understand about what is going on here, but I’m beginning to wonder if it is time for the democratic leadership to come to terms with their failure and just declare victory.

    Cut everything out of the bill that doesn’t boil down to “no recision” and “no pre-existing condition exclusion.” And by everything — I mean EVERYTHING. No more single-payer-public-option-medicare(not medicare)buy-in-coop shit. It was a great idea, but it has ALREADY jumped the shark, and it isn’t going to get any better from this point. No more mandates. No more subsidies. Not a word about abortion …. Take on NOTHING but recision and pre-existing conditions. Give up everything else.

    This is incrementalism … better luck next time … but we screwed the pooch.

    Because the compromised compromises are starting to smell distinctly of shit sandwich.

  25. 25.

    Alex S.

    December 14, 2009 at 5:09 pm

    I hope that history will judge Sen. Lieberman as a mediocre man with an undistinguished career who was always wrong about the big issues. Unfortunately, history is written by the winners, so it is important to win this health-care battle – with the vote of Olympia Snowe. Joe Lieberman must become completely irrelevant.

  26. 26.

    calipygian

    December 14, 2009 at 5:11 pm

    @Comrade Mary: I agree that there isn’t MUCH of a parallel, after all, Lieberman has been building to this point since he was a shrill scold during the Clinton impeachment.

    However, this poor CA Assemblyman is getting death threats because he voted for the governor’s budget containing tax increases, which is the mature position and ironically, the position Ronaldus Magnus took in 1982. All it took was one vote and he gets bodyguard protection from people who want to tea bag him with lead shot.

  27. 27.

    GReynoldsCT00

    December 14, 2009 at 5:11 pm

    @batgirl:

    I don’t like to give the WaPo clicks either but I have a shortcut to Ezra’s page… hopefully he gets the credit for the traffic. He’s worth it.

  28. 28.

    Zifnab

    December 14, 2009 at 5:12 pm

    @calipygian:

    I hate Lieberman as much as the next morally upstanding, decent human being but I hope we don’t become as vicious as the California Republican Party.

    I think you’ve got it backwards. Lieberman could use a good recall. I just wish that when Senators – Dem or ‘Pub – step as far out of line as Lieberman has, that we’d see this kind of thing more often.

    If the California Assemblyman survives the recall, it should say something to the rest of the Republican Party in the state. But from a Republican perspective, it makes a lot of sense to go after a recalcitrant like this, when their margin for victory is so slim. Dems could learn a lesson or two about keeping a politician in line.

  29. 29.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    @The Grand Panjandrum:

    Yes, it was. But people like Lane no doubt have their nose firmly planted in Hiatt colon area, thus Ezra is living dangerous, which makes me proud of the brainy sprout.

    He needs hits, lots of website hits. Hear that Senor Cole?

  30. 30.

    Punchy

    December 14, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    With Wittmann sniffing around Ezra, you have to wonder how long is before Hiatt has Klein working alongside Froomkin at the HuffPo.

    I haven’t a clue what any of this means.

  31. 31.

    Brian J

    December 14, 2009 at 5:14 pm

    I guess Marshall Whitman is unaware that the bill also calls for several attempts to try to reduce the costs in the Medicare program. There’s no guarantee they will work, but it’s not as if the proposal simply proposes to throw money into a failed program. It’s coupled with what has been described as the most far reaching piece of social and fiscal legislation in decades.

  32. 32.

    calipygian

    December 14, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    @Zifnab: The problem is, Connecticut Dems DID recall him. Which is why Lieberman is now an Independent Lieberman for Lieberman and not a Democrat.

    Unfortunately, the Connecticut electorate at large didn’t agree with the CT Democrats’ judgment vis a vis Lieberman.

  33. 33.

    Mnemosyne

    December 14, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    I don’t generally wish harm on others, but I hope Marshall Wittmann meets his end being trampled by a moose.

  34. 34.

    AngusTheGodOfMeat

    December 14, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    @Punchy:

    I haven’t a clue what any of this means.

    Mission accomplished, then, I think.

    What is the point of being an insider unless you can have outsiders?

    I am just asking.

  35. 35.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    but I hope Marshall Wittmann meets his end being trampled by a moose.

    We all might meet this hideous fate, right before the human race endtime.

  36. 36.

    DCPlod

    December 14, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    Politico’s at it again, guys.

    First we got this: White House To Harry Reid: Cut Deal With Joe Lieberman

    Politico’s source? Their generic ‘anonymous WH official’ which screams to anyone using their brain, “We just made this shit up because we’re Drudge whores and to piss off liberals.”

    Couple of hours later, WH confirms that Politico’s full of crap.

    In the meantime, liberals all over Twitter and the internet in general have burst blood vessels and smashed keyboards. So mission accomplished yet again for the assholes at Politico.

  37. 37.

    AngusTheGodOfMeat

    December 14, 2009 at 5:18 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    Ungulates everywhere are injured by this kind of talk.

    We are mostly peaceful creatures. Do you see cows dropping bombs on people? I rest my case.

  38. 38.

    Mnemosyne

    December 14, 2009 at 5:20 pm

    @calipygian:

    Unfortunately, the Connecticut electorate at large didn’t agree with the CT Democrats’ judgment vis a vis Lieberman.

    That’s because Connecticut Republicans deserted Lieberman’s Republican challenger and voted for him instead.

    Lieberman knows who elected him, and now he’s paying them back.

  39. 39.

    Napoleon

    December 14, 2009 at 5:21 pm

    @John Cole:

    And as a cherry on top of what General Winfield Stuck posted Lane’s rant comes on the same day (today) that the WaPo ran an opinion piece from him that said the way back to prosperity is to, among other things, cut the minimum wage from $7.25 to $5.15.

    Funny he made no mention of reigning in outrageous bonuses at government supported/rescued companies.

  40. 40.

    catclub

    December 14, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    sentient puddle @ 4

    My understanding of reconciliation is that a neutral
    score is not as useful as a plus or minus score from the CBO.
    Reconciliation items are only those that DO affect the budget balance.

  41. 41.

    Tsulagi

    December 14, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    Yeah, no one could ever have anticipated this with Joe.

    Reportedly, the WH is pressuring Reid to cut a deal with Lieberman. If so, that would be sure to pay big dividends.

    If this HCR saga has been 11-dimensional chess from Dem leadership, these fuckers need to take remedial training in tic-tac-toe before even looking at a checkers board.

  42. 42.

    GReynoldsCT00

    December 14, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    That’s because Connecticut Republicans deserted Lieberman’s Republican challenger and voted for him instead.

    That and the guy was a dud

  43. 43.

    Napoleon

    December 14, 2009 at 5:24 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    Not just any moose, an incontinent moose.

  44. 44.

    DCPlod

    December 14, 2009 at 5:26 pm

    @Tsulagi:

    Reportedly, the WH is pressuring Reid to cut a deal with Lieberman. If so, that would be sure to pay big dividends.

    See @DCPlod: The WH is doing no such thing.

  45. 45.

    Mnemosyne

    December 14, 2009 at 5:26 pm

    @AngusTheGodOfMeat:

    I’m just sayin’, Wittmann needs to be more careful about taking the good name of moose in vain, because a moose will fuck you up given the chance.

  46. 46.

    Sentient Puddle

    December 14, 2009 at 5:26 pm

    @catclub: Yes, but I wasn’t talking about bills that are designed to go through reconciliation. Of course, with Lieberman being the ass that he is, it sounds like reconciliation is much more likely as of today, which yes, means a very different bill from the one currently under consideration.

    Thing is, we’re just not at that point yet.

  47. 47.

    Linkmeister

    December 14, 2009 at 5:27 pm

    @AngusTheGodOfMeat: Are you one of those critters which appear in the Chick-Fil-A ads holding up signs which say “Eat mor chikn”?

  48. 48.

    Roger Moore

    December 14, 2009 at 5:28 pm

    @Keith:

    I think from now on, I will just refer to the Senator from CT as “Sen. Whittman” Senator Palpatine.

    Fixt.

  49. 49.

    AngusTheGodOfMeat

    December 14, 2009 at 5:29 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    a moose will fuck you up given the chance

    Not me. I just want to eat, eliminate waste, and repeat.

    That’s enough for me.

    Let the moose have his attitude. I have people driving me and my family around in trucks.

    Heh.

  50. 50.

    Zifnab

    December 14, 2009 at 5:29 pm

    @calipygian:

    Unfortunately, the Connecticut electorate at large didn’t agree with the CT Democrats’ judgment vis a vis Lieberman.

    The Connecticut Dems split on Lieberman and Lamont, and Lamont edged out. But there was still a big enough Lieberman loyal following to give him the race in the general, when backed by the GOP (whose own candidate got something like 10% of the vote).

    But Lieberman’s support has fallen ever since then. He’s persona non grata in his home state now. A recall would toast him.

  51. 51.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 5:29 pm

    @DCPlod:

    It all reminds me of my childhood, where every fall giant flocks of blackbirds would come to roost near the house where I grew up.

    Then some idiot would made a loud noise and they all took flight at once, squawking and shitting on everything.

  52. 52.

    Comrade Mary

    December 14, 2009 at 5:30 pm

    Ezra on why “Fuck this, let’s go for reconciliation!” may not be a terrific idea. It may be the only option left, but it’s not a panacea.

    The short version is that reconciliation, which short-circuits the filibuster, can only be used for legislation that directly affects the federal budget. Anything that “indirectly” affects the budget — think insurance regulations, like the ban on preexisting conditions — would be ineligible.
    __
    What would be eligible? Well, Medicare buy-in, for one thing. Medicaid expansions. The public option. Anything, in short, that relies on a public program, rather than a new regulation in the private market. That means we’d probably lose the regulations on insurers, many of the delivery-side reforms, the health insurance exchanges, the individual mandate and much else.

    More detail here.

  53. 53.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 5:31 pm

    @Napoleon:

    Not just any moose, an incontinent moose.

    You ain’t pissing in the wind.

  54. 54.

    matoko_chan

    December 14, 2009 at 5:31 pm

    @Comrade Mary:

    can only be used for legislation that directly affects the federal budget.

    so we wait for the CBO.
    ;)

  55. 55.

    matoko_chan

    December 14, 2009 at 5:34 pm

    @AngusTheGodOfMeat:

    I have people driving me and my family around in trucks.

    To the slaughter house.
    And OF COURSE its the ungulates!
    Why do you think Satan has cloven hooves?

  56. 56.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 5:34 pm

    @Comrade Mary:

    That’s why they would try to pass the reforms by regular order and peal off the PO for reconciliation. And every Senator is fully aware of the big chess game going on with use of arcane senate rules, and why I don’t pay much attention to one or the other wanking this or that meme right know. This really is 11 dimensional chess.

    edit — but I will add, that it is becoming obvious that Holy Joe is willing to go all the way with stopping this bill, and maybe any bill.

  57. 57.

    AngusTheGodOfMeat

    December 14, 2009 at 5:34 pm

    @Linkmeister:

    Are you one of those critters which appear in the Chick-Fil-A ads holding up signs which say “Eat mor chikn”?

    Busted!

    It’s not a bad deal, competing with an adversary that has a brain the size of a lima bean.

    And I don’t necessarily mean Republicans.

  58. 58.

    DCPlod

    December 14, 2009 at 5:35 pm

    @General Winfield Stuck:

    Then some idiot would made a loud noise and they all took flight at once, squawking and shitting on everything.

    Unfortunately, unlike the birds liberals also shit on themselves in the process.

  59. 59.

    Notorious P.A.T.

    December 14, 2009 at 5:35 pm

    With Lieberman, Lincoln, Landrieu, and Ben Nelson representing 4% of the population of this country

    Come on, be fair: if you include Nelson’s hair, you’re up to 7% of the country.

  60. 60.

    AngusTheGodOfMeat

    December 14, 2009 at 5:36 pm

    @matoko_chan:

    Those are just the bad people.

  61. 61.

    AngusTheGodOfMeat

    December 14, 2009 at 5:37 pm

    @matoko_chan:

    Why do you think Satan has cloven hooves?

    They were the style at one time.

  62. 62.

    freelancer

    December 14, 2009 at 5:38 pm

    @Notorious P.A.T.:

    As a Nebraskan who needs a haircut, this made me LOL.

  63. 63.

    Notorious P.A.T.

    December 14, 2009 at 5:39 pm

    Politico’s at it again, guys.

    First we got this: White House To Harry Reid: Cut Deal With Joe Lieberman

    Politico’s source? Their generic ‘anonymous WH official’ which screams to anyone using their brain, “We just made this shit up because we’re Drudge whores and to piss off liberals.”

    Couple of hours later, WH confirms that Politico’s full of crap.

    I smell a Pullitzer!

  64. 64.

    ed

    December 14, 2009 at 5:41 pm

    Wittmann, like Lieberman, never feels constrained by the truth, because otherwise he would mention that Lieberman was in favor of the medicare buy-in three months ago:

    Dude, that was before Tiger Woods became a “controversial figure”. Duh.

  65. 65.

    SFAW

    December 14, 2009 at 5:41 pm

    See @DCPlod: The WH is doing no such thing.

    Sorry, but if you are banking on them not cutting a deal with T.J., then I think you will probably be sorely disappointed and greatly disillusioned.

    Unless someone at 1600 finally wises up – they haven’t yet, and Rahm probably isn’t helping – they’ll get the bill they want, which is: what the Rethugs want, with some bullshit fig leaf thrown in.

    What’s that? You’re saying that they want a robust public option, because that’s what 60% of the country wants (or at least, wanted)? Excellent! And can I interest you in this machine I invented, which pulls static electricity out of the air, and will provide all the power the US needs for decades?

    I am SO hoping I’m wrong about this, but it’s been awhile since the WH and Harry Reid hasn’t disappointed me.

  66. 66.

    Notorious P.A.T.

    December 14, 2009 at 5:42 pm

    @Punchy:

    I haven’t a clue what any of this means.

    Long story short: Dan Froomkin was the only good journalist left at the Post. . . so naturally they got rid of him. Now he works for HuffPo. Ezra Klein could be on a similar career trajectory.

    @freelancer:

    It was someone else who first started talking about Ben Nelson’s Hair. Who was it? Damn, have to hit the search.

  67. 67.

    Napoleon

    December 14, 2009 at 5:42 pm

    @Comrade Mary:

    You actually bring up something in a round about way that I am kind of surprised no one has mentioned elsewhere, although silence on the matter from policy makers is strategic.

    Anyway, what is to stop them from passing the HCR plan w/o public option or medicare buy in and 2 minutes after the plan is passed (or even next year, the plan doesn’t totally kick in for a few years) Congress comes back and adds the PO/MC buyin via a new bill that amends the new HCR law but use reconciliation to pass it? I see no reason they can not do that. Of course anyone involved with the process who sees that as an option (say, Bernie Sanders or Sherrod Brown) who have any kind of brains do not dare say that out loud and if someone would bring it up to them they should feign ignorance.

  68. 68.

    DCPlod

    December 14, 2009 at 5:43 pm

    @Notorious P.A.T.:

    I smell a Pullitzer!

    The newest addition to the Pulitzer board will no doubt agree.

  69. 69.

    Rick Taylor

    December 14, 2009 at 5:44 pm

    Ezra Klein makes the point,
    __

    To put this in context, Lieberman was invited to participate in the process that led to the Medicare buy-in. His opposition would have killed it before liberals invested in the idea. Instead, he skipped the meetings and is forcing liberals to give up yet another compromise.

    __
    It’s not just that Lieberman came out against extending Medicare, it’s the way he did it. He was given every opportunity to give input to the process and he blew them of. He gave no indication of his new principled stand in advance, and even hinted he’d be fine with Medicare. He waited until after the committee had hashed out a compromise and stuck its neck out, and only then announced his new found principles, when it would do maximum damage. Metaphorically speaking, he’s kicked the Democratic party in the nuts, and he’s made the leadership look like fools.

  70. 70.

    Comrade Mary

    December 14, 2009 at 5:44 pm

    @General Winfield Stuck: Yes, technically, separate bills can be created, but Lieberman, Nelson, Landrieu, Snowe et. al. aren’t likely to go along with voting for the regulatory portion if they know things are being set up to thwart them re the public option and Medicare.

    Maybe I’m being unduly pessimistic. Maybe Snow and Collins, say, would be willing to make a count of 60 on the regulatory bills. But yes, I agree that Lieberman ain’t going along at all, and I’m not so sure about Nelson or even Bayh.

    So if we can’t get everything, what’s the better outcome? Get rid of exclusion pre-existing conditions, control rescission, get other regulations in, and set mandates, or set up a public option and Medicare buy-in while risking not getting any regulation at all? Plus, reconciliation takes a lot longer.

  71. 71.

    lol

    December 14, 2009 at 5:45 pm

    One other concern with splitting the bill in two (budget part in reconciliation and rest of bill under normal order) is that the normal order bill won’t necessarily pass.

    Lieberman’s being a little shit now and I can see a couple other Senators joining him once they get passed over for reconciliation.

  72. 72.

    Rick Taylor

    December 14, 2009 at 5:45 pm

    I forgot to put the link to Ezra Klein’s piece above.

  73. 73.

    matoko_chan

    December 14, 2009 at 5:45 pm

    @Napoleon: yup.
    totally 11-D.
    There are feints within feints, and wheels within wheels.
    The force is strong in this one.
    ;)

  74. 74.

    AngusTheGodOfMeat

    December 14, 2009 at 5:45 pm

    Then some idiot would made a loud noise and they all took flight at once, squawking and shitting on everything.

    So, you’ve met my first wife’s family?

  75. 75.

    cleek

    December 14, 2009 at 5:46 pm

    With Wittmann sniffing around Ezra, you have to wonder how long is before Hiatt has Klein working alongside Froomkin at the HuffPo.

    i don’t think i’ve ever read a more inside-baseball line on BJ.

  76. 76.

    Harley Furguson, the Tractorcycle

    December 14, 2009 at 5:46 pm

    @Tsulagi:

    If this HCR saga has been 11-dimensional chess from Dem leadership, these fuckers need to take remedial training in tic-tac-toe before even looking at a checkers board.

    I should know better than to drink liquids while reading B-J..

    Now I have to change my clothes and clean my keyboard, desk and monitor

    Le sigh..

  77. 77.

    Comrade Mary

    December 14, 2009 at 5:47 pm

    @Napoleon: I’m hoping they can pull off something like that. But they would need a hell of a sales job now, given the expected media and blogger outrage, and suggestions I’ve seen elsewhere that a good chunk of Dems wouldn’t vote in 2010 if the public option doesn’t pass. This has to look like a strategic victory. Losing even a couple of seats in the Senate and chunks of the house wouldn’t give them much leverage to pass anything else.

  78. 78.

    asiangrrlMN

    December 14, 2009 at 5:47 pm

    @Zifnab: Agreed. And, I actually believe the country HAS changed and that Tiger Woods is NOT a controversial figure…oh, and that Lieberman is still a fucking asshole. So there, Marshall Wittman. WTF is wrong with these people?

  79. 79.

    Notorious P.A.T.

    December 14, 2009 at 5:50 pm

    Here’s the first mention I can find referring to Ben Nelson’s hair, written by Tripletee:

    https://balloon-juice.com/?p=30618#comment-1463373

    Nice rant )

  80. 80.

    matoko_chan

    December 14, 2009 at 5:51 pm

    Get rid of exclusion pre-existing conditions

    can’t happen without some sort of universal coverage.

  81. 81.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 5:51 pm

    @Napoleon: @Napoleon:

    Of course anyone involved with the process who sees that as an option (say, Bernie Sanders or Sherrod Brown) who have any kind of brains do not dare say that out loud and if someone would bring it up to them they should feign ignorance.

    ding ding ding!. Absolutely correct. And it is hard for them to do this now because it will be much easier, and maybe necessary, to get some bill out to go to conference, to iron out their differences before game on for the final senate vote.

    Andy my guess is, and it is a guess, that Lieberman’s obvious flip flopping by the hour is because he knows that to get any bill right now out of the senate means the scenario you lay out becomes possible.

    If the senate were to do it now, it would mean the house would have to swallow the senate language without input to work out differences like the stupak language and other stuff, and pass a mirror initial senate bill. This won’t happen, so it means the senate would have to work things out with the house, then do the whole exercise again with reconciliation.

    I now have brain hurt. yikes!!

    edit- yes Comrade Mary, but for Joe and his buds to block a pure reform bill that everyone, including wingnut say is needed would be a much harder thing for them to do. That is why. I think. Joe is going to the wall to keep the first senate bill passed. I think Reid and Obama are just going to have to bite the bullet and drop all federal involv. just to get a bill out for now.

    And take the flame from Hamsher et all.

  82. 82.

    AB

    December 14, 2009 at 5:51 pm

    Ezra’s been on fire today though, I’m pretty happy with his recent posts, even though I disagree with him on other counts.

  83. 83.

    matoko_chan

    December 14, 2009 at 5:52 pm

    @Tsulagi: dude……not dem leadership…..Obama.
    He uses them just like he uses the predicktable refuglicans.
    The Machiavelli playbook.

    A prince never lacks legitimate reasons to break his promise.
    –Niccolo Machiavelli

  84. 84.

    fraught

    December 14, 2009 at 5:54 pm

    Reid should make a deal with Joe for another more powerful chairmanship, a better office, thicker towels in the Senate gym, a night with Miss Israel, get the bill passed and then take it all away and tell Hadassah that Joe has the clap.

  85. 85.

    Roger Moore

    December 14, 2009 at 5:55 pm

    @Zifnab:

    But from a Republican perspective, it makes a lot of sense to go after a recalcitrant like this, when their margin for victory is so slim.

    Strictly speaking, it isn’t their margin of victory. It’s their margin of relevance. They’re only able to have any relevance at the state level because of California’s insane 2/3 requirement to raise taxes or pass a budget. If things go bad for them in the next election- and especially after redistricting- they won’t even have that leverage.

    Dems could learn a lesson or two about keeping a politician in line.

    The problem is that it’s much easier to maintain that kind of discipline when you’re a rump party whose only goal is to obstruct anything the other side tries to accomplish. The Republicans’ emphasis on ideological purity may be shrinking the party, but it’s also making it easier for them to move in lockstep. The Democrats simply can’t be that rigid because they aren’t as ideologically coherent. It’s not just that they have to accept a bit more heterodoxy, but that the lack of coherence means there isn’t an obvious orthodox position to enforce.

  86. 86.

    Mnemosyne

    December 14, 2009 at 5:55 pm

    “If anyone believes that the situation has not changed, they also believe that Tiger Woods is not a controversial figure at this moment.”

    I don’t think that Whittmann knows what “controversial” means. Unless there’s been a huge groundswell arguing that Woods was totally justified in constantly cheating on his wife, he’s not a “controversial” figure, he’s a scandalous figure. “Controversial” would imply that he has strong defenders, and I haven’t seen any.

  87. 87.

    DCPlod

    December 14, 2009 at 5:56 pm

    dude……not dem leadership…..Obama.

    Yeah, it’s totally Obama’s fault for not wishing upon a star that Lieberman and Nelson would become real Democrats.

  88. 88.

    Notorious P.A.T.

    December 14, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    The problem is that it’s much easier to maintain that kind of discipline when you’re a rump party whose only goal is to obstruct anything the other side tries to accomplish.

    I don’t know, they wielded that kind of discipline when they were the majority party, too.

  89. 89.

    Napoleon

    December 14, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    @Comrade Mary:

    Thats why you amend the bill a year down the line. At the time you do it you come up with some transparently BS arguement (one just as transparently BS as Holy Joes) that the fiscal situation has changed and so now it is important to pass the PO/Medicare buyin then pass it.

  90. 90.

    Notorious P.A.T.

    December 14, 2009 at 6:00 pm

    I don’t think that Whittmann knows what “controversial” means. Unless there’s been a huge groundswell arguing that Woods was totally justified in constantly cheating on his wife, he’s not a “controversial” figure, he’s a scandalous figure. “Controversial” would imply that he has strong defenders, and I haven’t seen any.

    Thank you! ! ! This is one of my peeves, misuse of the word “controversial”.

  91. 91.

    Chuck Butcher

    December 14, 2009 at 6:00 pm

    I’m beginning to close in on the position that political sabotague is the key. Look at every Rep that isn’t an out and out liberal and support their Republican opponent and send lots of money to the RNC. Thirty years of their crap hasn’t gotten the message across so it appears that in order to do so the show needs to be run really hard into the wall and the GOP are the guys to do it.

    Would that be kinda rough on a lot of people? Sure the hell would be … and? We have achieved the paralysis that is in reality the BushCo status quo. If this is your desired end of electing people with a (D) after their name, you ain’t me.

    I’m not talking about Primary challenges, I’m talking about straight out crossing the lines to pervert the outcome. No I’m not talking about killing your handful of good Democrats or killing the future by gutting the bench (local, state) but handing the Federal govt to the GOP now (’10) and 2012. It looks to me as though GWB wasn’t the ballbat to get the nation’s attention, so screw it and go to a sledgehammer.

    I’m not there yet, just real close.

  92. 92.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    December 14, 2009 at 6:01 pm

    “If anyone believes that the situation has not changed, they also believe that Tiger Woods is not a controversial figure at this moment.”

    “Look! Wild Negro penis!” has got to be the lamest bit of distractovision, EVER.

  93. 93.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    December 14, 2009 at 6:01 pm

    Testing.

    Penis.

  94. 94.

    Napoleon

    December 14, 2009 at 6:01 pm

    @Comrade Mary:

    I understand your point but if they can come back over the summer and correct it then maybe it works out that they fire the base up going into the election season.

  95. 95.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    December 14, 2009 at 6:01 pm

    Testing.

    P3nis.

  96. 96.

    Notorious P.A.T.

    December 14, 2009 at 6:02 pm

    Plus, reconciliation takes a lot longer.

    I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: how could reconciliation possibly be worse than what is happening now?

    Is there an end in sight to this farce? Are the Democratic leadership learning anything, or improving their bargaining position in any way?

  97. 97.

    matoko_chan

    December 14, 2009 at 6:03 pm

    @DCPlod: O is a master gamer. They already gamed Lieberman doing what he’s doing.
    The core team is unsurprised.

  98. 98.

    asiangrrlMN

    December 14, 2009 at 6:03 pm

    @Mnemosyne: I wouldn’t even say scandalous, but that’s just me. Either way, Wittman is a moron, and Lieberman is still a fucking asshole.

  99. 99.

    Comrade Mary

    December 14, 2009 at 6:03 pm

    @kommrade reproductive vigor: You have three? Awesome backup system, dude. I guess the “reproductive vigor” part of your name is truth in advertising.

  100. 100.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    @Napoleon:

    That might work. But I wonder if Joe’s desire to screw dems will dissipate enough, or at all to vote for cloture in a year or ten, or even when he’s preaching his gospel to the worms.

  101. 101.

    Roger Moore

    December 14, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    @Notorious P.A.T.:

    I don’t know, they wielded that kind of discipline when they were the majority party, too.

    You mean the way they ramrodded through George W. Bush’s program of Social Security privatization, comprehensive immigration reform, and Harriet Miers for the Supreme Court?

  102. 102.

    John Cole

    December 14, 2009 at 6:09 pm

    I honestly don’t think many of you understand what a perilous position Ezra is in, to be honest.

    A few things about Lieberman’s office calling around asking about Ezra:

    1.) Wittmann is a former Trotskyite, just like half the rest of the current neocon establishment. You know all that shit the wingnuts state about Saul Alinsky and the Obama WH following rules for radicals- it is nonsense, of course- but for the neocons, it isn’t. They follow those rules. See anyone who opposed the Iraq War, see anyone who stands up to the AIPAC lobby, etc. These guys would think nothing of exerting a little pressure, snuffing Ezra’s job, which would both silence a critic and send a message.

    2.) Ezra is young and has very few ties to the DC establishment. Sure, he has the TAPPED crowd and Podesta at ThinkProgress, but that is about it, and he is railing against some entrenched interests. Not only entrenched big money like the insurance and pharm and health industry, but the whole establishment. Wittmann has ties to the Christian Coalition, Lieberman has deep ties, etc.

    3.) Ezra has already made enemies with folks that Lieberman and Wittman are tied to in one way or another. The goon squad at the Weekly Standard hate him because Ezra has made remarks regarding Israel that fall out of line with what they want, Marty Peretz and his jock strap Kirchik refer to Ezra as the “juice box mafia” and would not think twice about destroying him (Peretz because he is a fanatic, Kirchick because he is a first class prick and probably a little jealous that while Ezra is at the WaPo, he is still applying suction to Peretz). I wouldn’t be shocked to hear them step up the rhetoric in the next couple of weeks, calling him a self-hating Jew, etc.

    4.) He has no left flank to defend him. The idiot purists in the progressive wing have been savaging him daily on their blogs. Hell, we’ve all read the “progressive” blogs call him the “village scribe” on a daily basis, and others have been launching similar attacks at him for months.

    When you put it all together, what Ezra is doing takes balls. You may not agree with him all the time, but he has shown more nuts in a few months than 99% of the people who occupy positions in our media. I’ll quite frankly be shocked to see him there for more than a few more months. He is making all the right enemies, yet the folks who should be his friends are too stupid to support him.

  103. 103.

    jwb

    December 14, 2009 at 6:15 pm

    @Chuck Butcher: Taking lessons from the political left of the Weimar Republic, I see.

  104. 104.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 6:15 pm

    @John Cole:

    When you put it all together, what Ezra is doing takes balls.

    Absolutely goddamn right John Cole!!

  105. 105.

    Notorious P.A.T.

    December 14, 2009 at 6:16 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    Good counterexamples, but SS privatization was one issue where the opposition party actually grew a spine and acted like Democrats; immigration reform was unpopular among enough of the people who Republicans care about (big businesses that like cheap labor) that it fractured their coalition, and Harriet Miers’s nomination was killed before it ever got to a vote, if I remember right.

    I’m not talking so much about whether things got passed or didn’t, but about the party discipline Republicans had. When Republicans wanted something, it would routinely get voted for by every Republican. When Democrats want something? eh.

  106. 106.

    eemom

    December 14, 2009 at 6:17 pm

    I wish for major uninsured evil to befall Joe Lieberman and every one of his senatorial scummates.

  107. 107.

    DCPlod

    December 14, 2009 at 6:17 pm

    @John Cole:

    He is making all the right enemies, yet the folks who should be his friends are too stupid to support him.

    That, along with ‘The perfect is the enemy of the good’ will be/has been the epitaph for so many liberals.

  108. 108.

    jwb

    December 14, 2009 at 6:17 pm

    @John Cole: “He is making all the right enemies, yet the folks who should be his friends are too stupid to support him.”

    Seeing a lot of such stupidity lately.

  109. 109.

    Rick Taylor

    December 14, 2009 at 6:18 pm

    I honestly don’t think many of you understand what a perilous position Ezra is in, to be honest.

    __
    I think you should post that on the main page, where people who visit this blog but don’t read all the comments can see it.

  110. 110.

    Mnemosyne

    December 14, 2009 at 6:19 pm

    @John Cole:

    He is making all the right enemies, yet the folks who should be his friends are too stupid to support him.

    Welcome to the Democratic Party. We’ve been shooting ourselves in the foot for 40 years, why should we stop now?

  111. 111.

    jwb

    December 14, 2009 at 6:19 pm

    @Rick Taylor: Agreed.

  112. 112.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 6:21 pm

    @Rick Taylor:

    Thirded!!

  113. 113.

    Napoleon

    December 14, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    @General Winfield Stuck:

    I am not sure if I understand your point, but anything going through reconciliation is not subject to closure, so Holy Joe doesn’t really matter.

    Personally I think he is lost to the caucus and to get to 60 on the bill right now they need one of the woman from Maine. If I am Reid that is what I am looking at doing.

  114. 114.

    DCPlod

    December 14, 2009 at 6:25 pm

    Welcome to the Democratic Party. We’ve been shooting ourselves in the foot for 40 years, why should we stop now?

    Reminds me of that old Will Rogers quote from even further back, around 70 years ago: “I’m not a member of any organized political party. I’m a Democrat.”

  115. 115.

    El Cid

    December 14, 2009 at 6:25 pm

    When you put it all together, what Ezra is doing takes balls. You may not agree with him all the time, but he has shown more nuts in a few months than 99% of the people who occupy positions in our media. I’ll quite frankly be shocked to see him there for more than a few more months. He is making all the right enemies, yet the folks who should be his friends are too stupid to support him.

    I pretty much agree, except I’m not aware in this case how I’d support him, other than post comments on his blog, ’cause I sure as hell am not going to give any money directly to the Post, not if I even had it to give.

  116. 116.

    Catsy

    December 14, 2009 at 6:25 pm

    @Comrade Mary: I don’t understand why people are complaining that many of the important reforms can’t make it through Reconciliation. Legislation does not occur in a vacuum–the votes for the reforms are clearly there; it’s not as if we lose the ability to bring them up in separate legislation if we go the Reconciliation route. But the inverse is also true: I’m baffled as to why we keep bargaining down the PO and other essential “public” pieces of HCR in order to reach the magic fantasy number of 60 votes, when we could simply agree to strip them from the bill, then pass them through Reconciliation.

    In my opinion our leadership is currently putting far too much emphasis on hitting a grand slam and not enough emphasis on playing small ball. The point is to pass HCR; whether or not it all comes as part of one big bill with a pretty bow on top is beside the point.

  117. 117.

    Elie

    December 14, 2009 at 6:25 pm

    @DCPlod:

    Amen, amen!!!

    The reality of that along with the complete intrasigence of the current “leadership” in the Congress and we have just shit sandwich all around…

    I think that the comments on this thread have been right on but reveal a frustrating reality that I can do nothing but grunt and shake my head..

    I remain speechless

  118. 118.

    Mnemosyne

    December 14, 2009 at 6:26 pm

    @Notorious P.A.T.:

    When Republicans wanted something, it would routinely get voted for by every Republican.

    It’s more that the Republicans were willing to threaten their own guys to get the votes. Who was that Republican rep who was told that the party would pull all funding for his son’s campaign unless he voted for the Medicare disaster? And even that only happened after they kept the voting open well past 1 am so they could beat everyone into line.

    California Republicans have great party discipline, and they have the 2/3rds requirement for tax and budget legislation to back them up. The problem with our budget crisis wasn’t that the Democrats didn’t work hard enough to win Republican votes. The problem was that Republicans are assholes who actually think that public universities shouldn’t exist and are more than happy to see the UC system dissolve. The one Republicans who finally blinked and crossed over to vote for the budget so the entire state didn’t shut down is now being recalled by his fellow Republicans.

    What was it that John said about the Republicans a few months ago? It was an analogy along the lines of trying to take someone out for dinner when you want to eat Italian and they want to eat burning tires.

  119. 119.

    Napoleon

    December 14, 2009 at 6:28 pm

    @John Cole:

    Some of the weirder precincts of leftblogsphere aside I think in reality Ezra would have plenty of cover from the left, in particular from the biggest sites (TPM, Duncan Black, Marcos M).

  120. 120.

    Chuck Butcher

    December 14, 2009 at 6:28 pm

    @jwb:

    political left of the Weimar Republic

    And considering the current state of Germany your point would be what? Not to mention that I made no allusion to attempting to co-opt the assholes or control them. So stuff your fuckng Nazi comparisons asshole.

  121. 121.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 6:28 pm

    @Napoleon:

    Sorry, I got yours and Comrade Mary’s comment confused.

    @Comrade Mary:

    Yes, technically, separate bills can be created, but Lieberman, Nelson, Landrieu, Snowe et. al. aren’t likely to go along with voting for the regulatory portion if they know things are being set up to thwart them re the public option and Medicare.

    I was actually responding to this and mixing your time lag suggestion.

  122. 122.

    kay

    December 14, 2009 at 6:28 pm

    I didn’t even know Ezra Klein wasn’t liberal enough.
    I think i”m out of the loop.
    I email his health care pieces around because they’re informative and interesting. I get really hard questions.
    He is the only person in the world who answered the question: “how are they going to enforce the mandate?”
    The answer is a payroll tax and the reason it’s a tax is because that’s the only way to enforce the mandate, within the constitution.
    Did everyone already know that?

  123. 123.

    Notorious P.A.T.

    December 14, 2009 at 6:31 pm

    It’s more that the Republicans were willing to threaten their own guys to get the votes. Who was that Republican rep who was told that the party would pull all funding for his son’s campaign unless he voted for the Medicare disaster?

    Exactly. What’s wrong with a threat now and then? “Hey Joe, unless you vote with us, it’s goodbye committee chairmanships!”

  124. 124.

    Comrade Mary

    December 14, 2009 at 6:32 pm

    @Catsy: (I’m +2 right now, so I may not be as coherent as I’d like to be.)

    Legislation does not occur in a vacuum—the votes for the reforms are clearly there; it’s not as if we lose the ability to bring them up in separate legislation if we go the Reconciliation route.

    True. But I expect Lieberman to be petty and slippery enough to never, ever vote for any of these bills. EVER. He’s not going to get re-elected, and he just doesn’t care if he looks obstructionist.

    I’m not sure how Nelson, Snowe and other will react to a reconciliation strategy. Maybe they’ll go along, maybe they won’t. I don’t think reconciliation is a slam-dunk — there are too many wee Lego pieces that could get scattered and stepped on — but it could work. We’ll be on tenterhooks over it for another few months, though.

    What could also work would be passing a neutered bill that Blue Dogs and swingable Republicans could accept, then adding to it next summer, but we’d need more than Joe to carry it, because I think he’s Lucy squared. COMPLETELY untrustworthy. Any further cuts or compromises should never, ever rely on his vote for anything.

  125. 125.

    Elie

    December 14, 2009 at 6:32 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    Dont you think that to some extent, the Republicans are not generally trying to create anything — hence more rarely deal with any legislation with complex implementation and interpretation issues. They are cutting and stopping – taxes and everything except war which they are for and dont mind spending for that…

    I think we compare the Democrats unfavorably to the Republicans in terms of discipline, we rarely take that into account…

  126. 126.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 6:33 pm

    @kay:

    Ezra is a liberal, but also practical and honest. And not interested in the meme flogging routine, that is all too common in our current media atmosphere.

    And is why he makes the right enemies, which though good, also has consequences.

  127. 127.

    DCPlod

    December 14, 2009 at 6:33 pm

    I didn’t even know Ezra Klein wasn’t liberal enough.

    I have no idea either. I can only assume it’s because he understands that we can’t get single payer/DADT repealed/DOMA repealed/every single thing on the progressive agenda done RIGHT. NOW. THIS. VERY. MINUTE.

  128. 128.

    DCPlod

    December 14, 2009 at 6:34 pm

    I didn’t even know Ezra Klein wasn’t liberal enough.

    I had no idea either. I can only assume it’s because he understands that we can’t get single payer/DADT repealed/DOMA repealed/every single thing on the progressive agenda done RIGHT. NOW. THIS. VERY. MINUTE.

  129. 129.

    calipygian

    December 14, 2009 at 6:35 pm

    @Notorious P.A.T.: I cannot believe that Lieberman has any committee assignment period.

    What a fucking joke. Shouldn’t this be the clue X 4 that Reid needs to tell Lieberman to caucus with himself, 60 votes be damned?

    If Reid can’t take this hint, Durbin needs to shitcan him and seize power.

    That’s right, I said it – mother fucking coup in the mother fucking Senate.

  130. 130.

    Annie

    December 14, 2009 at 6:37 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    Exactly….Why should we stop now…

  131. 131.

    Tsulagi

    December 14, 2009 at 6:37 pm

    @DCPlod:

    The WH is doing no such thing…. Couple of hours later, WH confirms that Politico’s full of crap.

    Via this slapdown you linked to?

    “The report is inaccurate. The White House is not pushing Senator Reid in any direction. We are working hand in hand with the Senate Leadership to work through the various issues and pass health reform as soon as possible.”

    Yeah, no wiggle room there. I’m sure the admin’s Interior Secretary after his private visit with Lieberman today would confirm they’re working through the various issues to pass legislation as soon as possible. No doubt it wouldn’t cross the Interior Secretary’s mind to ask Lieberman during the friendly visit what it would take to get his support. Again.

    Don’t care if they’re looking to make a deal or not. Could see Obama pushing to get something done soon. The longer this goes on, the more the legislation completely bleeds out.

    @Napoleon: Yeah, and if my aunt grew balls she’d be on her way to being my transgendered uncle.

    @General Winfield Stuck:

    This really is 11 dimensional chess.

    Then they really might want to concentrate on playing it in this one alone. Giving up your queen, rooks, knights, and bishops without any real fight in those other dimensions might be grand strategery, but here not so much.

  132. 132.

    kay

    December 14, 2009 at 6:39 pm

    @DCPlod:

    I like that he specialized. This stuff is too complicated for generalists.

    He’s going to be the national expert on any eventual health care bill, you know that, right?

    If they pass something, he’s set for life.

  133. 133.

    Shalimar

    December 14, 2009 at 6:41 pm

    What happened to all the people in the earlier thread insisting that Lieberman is a man of principle and liberals are just meanies for not appreciating him? Did the 3-months-ago thing drive them away because they don’t have an answer for that recent a flip-flop? Oh well, I guess they can come back in the morning and pretend they didn’t see it.

  134. 134.

    jwb

    December 14, 2009 at 6:42 pm

    @Chuck Butcher: It was the left of the Weimar Republic that basically said, hah let the folk live under the rightwing nut cases for awhile, that will teach them. I didn’t compare you to a Nazi, you fool, I compared you to the Weimar left, which made a gamble and lost badly.

  135. 135.

    Comrade Mary

    December 14, 2009 at 6:42 pm

    Shalimar, go ahead and fucking quote ANYONE here claiming that Lieberman is a man of principle. Fuckwit.

  136. 136.

    Notorious P.A.T.

    December 14, 2009 at 6:43 pm

    @calipygian:

    Sounds good to me. Altough, Reid looks set to bomb in his re-election campaign. Hard to imagine that not giving your own side a reason to support you would come back to hurt you!

  137. 137.

    Rick Taylor

    December 14, 2009 at 6:43 pm

    I didn’t even know Ezra Klein wasn’t liberal enough.

    __
    It’s only one data point, but I’ve seen BDT from Talk Left speaking of Ezra with his trademark disdain, accusing him of being obsequious to the Obama administration because he argued we should talk about what we could get in return if the public option were abandoned. I hardly every to Talk Left, but I’ve seen these sorts of comments a few times over the years from him.

  138. 138.

    Sly

    December 14, 2009 at 6:51 pm

    Wittmann, like Lieberman, never feels constrained by the truth, because otherwise he would mention that Lieberman was in favor of the medicare buy-in three months ago.

    Silly moonbats. Lieberman would never explicitly say anything of the kind. He’s too “Country First” to be hoodwinked into supporting your socialized medicine plots. That article is obviously just a plot by the liberal media to besmirch the character of a great American. I demand video proof, or else it never happened!

  139. 139.

    Zifnab

    December 14, 2009 at 6:51 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    The problem is that it’s much easier to maintain that kind of discipline when you’re a rump party whose only goal is to obstruct anything the other side tries to accomplish. The Republicans’ emphasis on ideological purity may be shrinking the party, but it’s also making it easier for them to move in lockstep. The Democrats simply can’t be that rigid because they aren’t as ideologically coherent. It’s not just that they have to accept a bit more heterodoxy, but that the lack of coherence means there isn’t an obvious orthodox position to enforce.

    The Republicans were able to railroad legislation through from ’02 to ’05 with a slimmer majority than ours. They used a lot of puffed up talk about mandates on the news and then they came back to the Hill, twisted a lot of arms, and pitched a lot of hard ball.

    I still don’t see the Democrats willing to use the levers of power that the Republicans indulged in. Rebel Dems continue to hold leadership positions – specifically Lieberman in his Homeland Security Chair – and the DNC, DCCC, and DSCC continue to fund raise for “endangered” Democrats who just also happen to be the DLC and Blue Dog boys causing all the trouble.

    Frankly, it should be easier to break a minority party. When you’re in the majority, you control the language of bills and the direction of spending. Chuch Grassley and Olympia Snowe have been given the opportunity to voice their opinions on everything from stimulus spending to health care. They should have been the low hanging fruit. But why bargain when you can make your demands

    Bobby freak’n Jindal has been parading around with federal checks in photo ops, all while blasting away at reckless government spending and zero accountability (and those massive boondoggle volcano monitoring stations).

  140. 140.

    gbear

    December 14, 2009 at 6:51 pm

    President McCain is outraged that the lefty blogs are being mean when his buddy Joe is just standing up for his principals (revised, updated and/or abandoned hourly).

    Oh, and Talk Of The Nation had a segment today about Tiger Woods in which they were basically discussing why women who work in service industries (waitresses, etc.) are considered sluts. It was the worst thing I’ve heard on NPR in months.

    @John Cole: Yes.

  141. 141.

    Mnemosyne

    December 14, 2009 at 7:01 pm

    @Notorious P.A.T.:

    What’s wrong with a threat now and then? “Hey Joe, unless you vote with us, it’s goodbye committee chairmanships!”

    Not a thing, and if Reid hasn’t even threatened to kick Lieberman out of the caucus, he’s even stupider than I thought.

    It’s more that the Republicans twisted all of the procedural rules (like keeping voting open for hours and hours) to get their results. Just as I don’t want a left-leaning unitary executive as president, I also don’t want Democrats to cheat in order to get their legislation passed the way Republicans did.

  142. 142.

    Chuck Butcher

    December 14, 2009 at 7:03 pm

    @jwb:
    Horseshit, the Weimar tried to co-opt Hitler with the idea they could control him from inside rather than out. It was stupid wishful thinking and the direct result was the rise of the Nazis. I don’t do wishful thinking and the consideration that weighs most heavily with me in this regard is that GWB wasn’t enough of a ballbat nor the last 30yrs and that makes me wonder if nearly half the electorate simply isn’t subject to the education of bad outcomes.

    I never thought Obama was a liberal politician nor that all members of the Democratic Caucus (House or Senate) were liberal – I mistakenly thought they’d keep filibuster control over their Caucus. It isn’t as though they don’t have the tools to do it, the lack of will to do so indicates that they’re willing to go with what they’ve got which isn’t shit. On that basis you’re left with exactly what?

  143. 143.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 7:17 pm

    Then they really might want to concentrate on playing it in this one alone. Giving up your queen, rooks, knights, and bishops without any real fight in those other dimensions might be grand strategery, but here not so much.

    You have no idea what you are talking about. Per usual.

  144. 144.

    jwb

    December 14, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    @Chuck Butcher: The left as a whole never tried to make a deal with Hitler—though the government did. But it would have been more akin to our centrists that tried to make that deal. And at least part of the reason the centrists made that deal was because the left thought the center was a bunch of corporate whores, which no doubt they were, and the left refused to work with them under the presumption that once the folk learned what it meant to live under a right wing government, they would be so fucked over they would come crawling to the left to save them. Hitler exploited the crisis caused by that bad gamble of the left.

  145. 145.

    SFAW

    December 14, 2009 at 7:23 pm

    You have no idea what you are talking about. Per usual.

    Not sure why you feel this way. The Obama Adminstration (and Harry Reid and even Nancy Pelosi’s starting to) has given away just about everything that made HCR a good thing, and they’ve received what in return? I mean, outside of T.J pulling a Lucy van Pelt every week or so.

  146. 146.

    SFAW

    December 14, 2009 at 7:25 pm

    You have no idea what you are talking about. Per usual.

    And you feel this way why? The Obama Adminstration (and Harry Reid and even Nancy Pelosi’s starting to) has given away just about everything that made HCR a good thing, and they’ve received what in return? I mean, outside of T.J pulling a Lucy van Pelt every week or so.

  147. 147.

    Chuck Butcher

    December 14, 2009 at 7:33 pm

    @jwb:
    Yes and today’s Germany is a direct result of its history. I’d rather things didn’t get that out of control here.

    As I said, “close to” not advocating it. I’m not sure what it would take to push me the rest of the way there. Health Care Reform is the tip of the iceberg in my opinion. There is a shit load more that needs attention without going to my lefty desires ends and I’ll bet you the same outcome is in the wings. Banking Reform? Iraq? Jobs? Tax Reform?

    Go ahead and put up your list of what has to be addressed to stay out of BushCo status quo and tell me how likely anything of substance (not lefty, just substance) you reckon on.

  148. 148.

    Jenn

    December 14, 2009 at 7:34 pm

    @zifnab

    Yeah, but that disregards 2 things: (1) Dems aren’t a monolith, so that on some issues, Repubs could pull in votes; (2) Dems, even when in the minority, are more interested in governance than being an unthinking roadblock.

    Even though I can find it aggravating that Reid isn’t perpetually threatening nuclear options and channeling his inner Tom DeLay, I think that these weaknesses of the party are also what I like about the party — I hate dogmatism (was that dogmatic?), I like the breadth and diversity, and I really appreciate the fact that in general, they are acting in good faith, in an attempt towards responsible governance (even when they’re coming from different points of view). The fact that the Republicans are more interested in purity tests, screaming NO!!! at the top of their lungs, and utterly disregarding what is best for the country in their quest for power is not something that I want the D’s to emulate, regardless of how satisfying it may occasionally be.

  149. 149.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    @SFAW:

    Because this senate bill means exactly nothing other a reason for people like you to rant and clutch pearls predicting impending doom.

    Before the final vote, this bill goes to conference and will be changed, then the final voting process will occur.

    what is happening now is strategy and counter strategy revolving around arcane senate procedures that will determine the outcome. I have written about this in this thread and many others, as have other commenters.

    And knee jerk reactionaries to the latest tweets and blogs mean exactly nothing but more fodder for the liberal poutrage. See me when it’s finished, and maybe you could be right. But no one knows right now what we will end up with, if anything.

  150. 150.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    December 14, 2009 at 7:39 pm

    OT:

    I just heard on MSNBC that techs on capitol hill have recovered over 20 million emails that were written during the Bush maladministration. They were stored incorrectly or in the wrong place (whatever that means).

    White House emails NOT erased? I hope some Republican assholes are breaking out in cold sweats over this.

  151. 151.

    Chuck Butcher

    December 14, 2009 at 7:44 pm

    No matter what the Weimar left thought or said, the govt was going to try to co-opt Hitler because they were scared spitless of him loose. You are referring to this as though the left had power to do squat other than throw hissy fits.

    Dead history aside, the effort to choke down vomit sufficiently to vote for GOPers to teach this country a lesson probably just couldn’t be done. I’m pretty doubtful about “just don’t vote”/

  152. 152.

    SFAW

    December 14, 2009 at 7:49 pm

    Because this senate bill means exactly nothing other a reason for people like you to rant and clutch pearls predicting impending doom.

    WTF? Rant? Just because I thought the 11-dimensional chess thing is, how shall we say, not all it’s cracked up to be?

    Look, they ain’t the best poker players in the world – witness things like the stimulus, and how they started negotiating at their (theoretically) absolute minimum. This doesn’t appear to be much different.

    Now, I’m as hopeful as the next guy that Reid was bullshitting about not going to reconciliation. But Reid hasn’t been much of a tough guy in the last 5 years, and there’s only so much you can get back through reconciliation.

    So, can the holier-than-thou crap. If it turns out that Obama really is doing the 11-D thing, I will happily do an “I was wrong, you were right” in BIG LETTERS. He’s a smart guy, but we’ve seen too much 11-D turn into non-progressive results, because he wasn’t trying to outsmart them, etc.

  153. 153.

    Midnight Marauder

    December 14, 2009 at 7:50 pm

    @Comrade Mary:

    Shalimar, go ahead and fucking quote ANYONE here claiming that Lieberman is a man of principle. Fuckwit.

    I believe Shalimar was discussing this thread and morans like this.

  154. 154.

    Tsulagi

    December 14, 2009 at 7:58 pm

    @SFAW: Pretty much. They’ve been punked by teabaggers. Now that takes some real skill. Fair chance the final bill will be a turd that the R-baggers would have had as their dream counterproposal if the Dems had shown at the start they would fight. Of course the Rs will still vote in block against it. That’s pretty good when you can get the other guy to own your turd.

    Plus, get really smart stratergerists among them like the General to not only eat that turd, but call it sweet as they do a happy dance while chewing. Say what you will of the Rs, you have to give them some respect in how well they’ve trained the Ds.

  155. 155.

    SFAW

    December 14, 2009 at 8:10 pm

    Plus, get really smart stratergerists among them like the General to not only eat that turd, but call it sweet as they do a happy dance while chewing.

    Christ, you too?

    All the General is doing, in his own inimitable fashion, is saying that “the bill hasn’t been signed, so stop whining until it is and ‘we’ don’t get what ‘we’ want”. Some of us are less optimistic about the whole 11-dimensional chess thingy, and the General apparently feels compelled to try to rip a new one in those who don’t share his optimism.

    A little different from the chew/sweet/dance thing.

  156. 156.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 8:12 pm

    @SFAW:

    The 11 dimensional chess reference I made had nothing to do with Obama, It was referring to the complicated mesh of Senate rules when passing complex legislation and maybe using reconciliation. Your little rant was just that, a knee jerk reaction to the bullshit theater being played out. I can read tons of similar nonsense at any number of liberal blogs right now.

    And I made no predictions for success, just calling uninformed idjits like Tsulagi for being too lazy or too dumb to understand how legislation like this proceeds and foaming out comment after comment bashing something he doesn’t have a clue about how it works.

    But you two can have your own little flogging dems party, until you drag me into it, then I will respond the way I want.

  157. 157.

    Tsulagi

    December 14, 2009 at 8:14 pm

    @SFAW:
    Okay, fair enough; I accept the admonition. He won’t dance. At least not in this dimension. Thank God.

  158. 158.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 8:14 pm

    @SFAW:

    No, what I am saying is that you don’t know how the process works. Did you ever think Lieberman would ever help out, I didn’t and he is the 60th vote, which complicates the whole thing to no end. You think Reid and Obama can do this without pain or controversy, somehow by fiat or decree. It does not work like that.

  159. 159.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 8:18 pm

    @SFAW:

    Dude, you jumped my shit. Not the other way around, so stop the bullshit that I am telling you to be quiet, because I would and try to avoid wankers like you at all cost.

  160. 160.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 8:43 pm

    Though I make no prediction, I still am guardedly optimistic, and have been due only to the power of self preservation in situations like these. And for dems to fail to get a decent bill passed will be an electoral disaster, and I think they know that.

  161. 161.

    matoko_chan

    December 14, 2009 at 8:45 pm

    @SFAW: ummm …do you even get where the term 11-dimensional chess comes from?
    11-D is the current favored flavor of String Theory, as opposed to 9-D.
    The General is sayin’ way more than “wait and see”.
    And you are clueless if you think Obama is a “progressive”.
    He is a machiavellian pragmatist.
    There may be very little alignment in the long game with democratic tactical goals.

  162. 162.

    jwb

    December 14, 2009 at 8:48 pm

    @Chuck Butcher: I’d say: keep voting for the guy who seems to best represent your views even if that person is a jerk and it pains you to vote that way. BTW, I don’t mean to imply that you shouldn’t be critical of the Dems for enabling its Republican-lite faction; personally, it drives me to distraction. It’s just that I firmly believe that Republican-lite is far better than full metal wingnut.

  163. 163.

    matoko_chan

    December 14, 2009 at 9:02 pm

    Word.
    The medicare buy-in is out.
    hmmm……i still think there cannot be reform of pre-existing conditions without universal coverage.
    We shall see.
    ;)

  164. 164.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 9:10 pm

    @matoko_chan:

    The medicare buy-in is out.

    for now

  165. 165.

    SFAW

    December 14, 2009 at 9:56 pm

    Ahh, so much bullshit, so little time ….

    The 11 dimensional chess reference I made had nothing to do with Obama, It was referring to the complicated mesh of Senate rules when passing complex legislation and maybe using reconciliation.

    First time I’ve seen it used that way. In this blog, and a bunch of other left-sides, it’s always been used to refer to the idea that Obama is playing the game on a much higher, subtler level, than the Rethugs etc. You want to give it your own meaning? Go for it.

    Your little rant was just that, …

    If you consider my first reply a rant, then you got a much thinner skin than I would have thought. A rant is more like your persistent shrieks in response to me.

    Did you ever think Lieberman would ever help out, …

    I haven’t entertained that thought since about 2002. Glad you think I do, so that you can feel superior.

    Dude, you jumped my shit.

    Again with the whining. Time to grow up or man up or pick your preferred cliche.

    11-D is the current favored flavor of String Theory, as opposed to 9-D.

    Well isn’t that nice. No, being a dumbshit, I don’t know much about String Theory. And being barely literate, I only now realize that in the hundred or so times I’ve seen it used on political blogs, in phrases similar to “Obama’s playing 11-dimensional Vulcan chess” (or whatever), they were really talking about branes, not brains, and I just didn’t understand that the whole political process was a cat’s cradle. (Whoops, wrong type of string.)

    And you are clueless if you think Obama is a “progressive”.

    Well, I’m clearly clueless, because I’ve run afoul of you and the General. But I haven’t thought Obama is a “progressive” – except in a relative sense, not an absolute sense (if such a thing exists) – since the middle of his campaign last year. I just keep hoping that some reasonably progressive programs/policies/laws come out of it all. Left to their own devices, it’s unlikely the Senate will push that – except maybe if Reid gets chucked and Durbin takes over.

    Just to be clear: I’m still hoping that the final version of HCR will be something useful/valuable. But with the serial drama queen whines (Snowe-Lincoln-Lieberman-Lincoln-Nelson-Snowe-Lieberman) it keeps getting less and less likely – unless reconciliation is back on the table.

  166. 166.

    General Winfield Stuck

    December 14, 2009 at 10:09 pm

    @SFAW:

    Wow. Long post

    Well, I’m clearly clueless, because I’ve run afoul of you and the General.

    You haven’t run afoul of me. You challenged something I said and I responded is all. Happens all the time here, and feathers get ruffled and it is forgot (at least by me) within minutes or hours.

    I understand your angst at this process, my only complaint is why don’t people take the time to understand, it is just a process. Comes from being a long time cspan junkie, I guess, especially watching the senate for many years. This isn’t unusual for contentious legislation, and few have been more contentious than major health care reform. Which is why it never gets done, and has never advanced to this stage before, It touches everyone in a vital and personal way.

    If I was a little brusk with your challenge, then please don;t take it personal. We are all equal false personas here, none more equal than others. :)

  167. 167.

    Tsulagi

    December 14, 2009 at 10:15 pm

    @SFAW:

    your persistent shrieks in response to me.

    ::ssshhhh…quiet…to be fair I don’t think the General was shrieking at you in his loony #160 and #161 comments. I think he was talking to his troops in those other dimensions.::

    Carry on, General!

  168. 168.

    Mnemosyne

    December 14, 2009 at 10:15 pm

    @Chuck Butcher:

    Dead history aside, the effort to choke down vomit sufficiently to vote for GOPers to teach this country a lesson probably just couldn’t be done. I’m pretty doubtful about “just don’t vote.”

    Lefties have been pushing the “just don’t vote” line since 1968 and look at the progressive paradise we live in now!

    You’d almost think that disengaging from the political process means that you lose political power … nah, that couldn’t be it. Let’s just convince more people on the left not to vote and then the Democrats will really be sorry.

  169. 169.

    SFAW

    December 14, 2009 at 10:26 pm

    General –

    OK.

    I think the difference between us is that you’re cautiously optimistic, and I’m pessimistic-but-hopeful. Unfortunately, I think Harry Reid’s track record puts the smart money on my view. But, as I said, if he puts reconciliation back on the table, then I’ll be cautiously optimistic, too.

    It’s just that, for the last N years, he’s reminded me of the line from “A Funny Thing Happened …”:

    “But you’ll never learn, you’ll be a eunuch all your life.”

  170. 170.

    matoko_chan

    December 15, 2009 at 2:40 am

    @SFAW: I dont think you are a dumbshit and I quite liked the branes for brains bit.
    ;)
    But the political world, like the quantum world, does not obey the laws of classical physics. There is entanglement at a distance, matter changes under observation, sub-atomic spin can be a game changer and dark matter and strange matter abound.
    Also….Obama is a gamer.
    His actions make the most sense to me if viewed through the prism of game theory, evolutionary theory of cooperation, and the iterated platonia dilemma.

  171. 171.

    SFAW

    December 15, 2009 at 6:56 am

    matoko_chan @172

    At times like this, I realize how much we need Professor Irwin Corey.

    Obama may be a gamer, but his tactics (or maybe it’s Rahm doing all this? I don’t know) that leave me less-than-impressed. [And, just to be clear, I mean “tactics” in the military or perhaps negotiating sense, not in the Rovian sense.]

    Evolutionary theory of cooperation? Iterated platonia dilemma? Now you’re just showing off.

  172. 172.

    matoko_chan

    December 15, 2009 at 10:02 am

    @SFAW: Obama’s tactics may not make sense…..but I think his strategy does.
    Healthcare reform is just the camels nose.
    I suspect the public option has been a sacrifice play from the start.
    This is going to be a long game, and the gamespace is pretty dense.
    It hasn’t even been a year yet…..I’m goin’ to give him a few more moves before I rank his play.
    ;)

Comments are closed.

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