I hate to keep linking to the Kaplan blogs but E. J. Dionne’s piece on the demise of any sort of public option is well worth reading:
Take yourself back to the endless wrangling in Sen. Max Baucus’ Finance Committee – or, more particularly, among his select “gang of six,” including three Republicans, two of whom clearly never had any intention of voting for health-care reform. They negotiated and negotiated and negotiated and negotiated — and got nowhere. Baucus failed to produce a draft bill before the August recess. The Democrats’ summer of discontent and the tea party madness followed.
This, it turns out, was a crucial moment. It set back the schedule for a health-care bill by at least a month, maybe two. There was no urgency in the Baucus process. Now there is urgency. And that gave Joe Lieberman his near dictatorial powers to kill a Medicare buy-in proposal that he had supported as recently as three months ago. If the bill had stayed on schedule — if this were, say, Nov. 15th, not Dec. 15th — there would still be time to wrangle. But time is running out.
[…..]The Medicare buy-in compromise was not announced until it had been cleared with Lieberman. I was in close touch with the negotiations at the time, and everyone involved thought Lieberman was on board. I don’t think they misunderstood what Lieberman was telling them, since his own public statement at the time, while cautious, was positive. “I am encouraged by the progress toward a consensus on proposals to send to the Congressional Budget Office to review,” he said on Dec. 9. “It is my understanding that at this point there is no legislative language so I look forward to analyzing the details of the plan and reviewing analysis from the Congressional Budget Office and the Office of the Actuary in the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid.” But of course Lieberman did not so “look forward” to the Congressional Budget Office analysis that he actually waited to see it. He dropped the hammer on the buy-in before the analysis appeared. This is not about substance. It’s about political positioning. It may also be, as some bloggers have suggested, about Lieberman’s determination to torture liberals. And you have to worry about whether Lieberman will not turn around and find some new objection to the health-care bill after he gets this concession.
Obviously, this is one of those things where, structurally, it is insane that Joe Lieberman has so much power. And in the aftermath of any defeat, it’s easy to spin “for want of a nail, the war was lost” narratives. So I guess this should all be taken with a grain of salt. But it’s an interesting analysis.
Mr Furious
There you go.
Mr Furious
Hey, and as long as you snip the good part, none of us need to click through to WaPo… It’s win-win!
DougJ
Hey, and as long as you snip the good part, none of need to click through to WaPo… It’s win-win!
There’s other good stuff in it too, actually. He agrees with Ezra in the Lane smackdown.
Mr Furious
Nothing’s better than catching your own typo in someone else’s blockquote, and still having time to fix it!
(Will President Lieberman take away our EDIT button too?)
bayville
Doug I will read your analysis but I swore off reading anything Dionne writes since about 1995.
General Winfield Stuck
Ya think? It’s like having Mussolini be social director on The Love Boat.
DougJ
Doug I will read your analysis but I swore off reading anything Dionne writes since about 1995.
Me too. But this was interesting.
I’m not saying it’s brilliant.
Wile E. Quixote
@General Winfield Stuck
Well at least the shuffleboard games and casino night would start on time.
Reks
I have to admit not being able to control my inner demons with regard to Joe Lieberman. Every time I see his smug, sanctimonious face.
Of course, had McCain won he’d probably be our Secretary of State. Knowing he desperately wanted an important position and lost out gives me a little pleasure.
nwithers
Fiago only wanted his pound of flesh, for revenge. On the other hand, Lieberman seems to be strip mining the democratic party with heavy machinery.
Comrade Darkness
I suppose it’s too much to ask that we start delivering the bodies of Americans dying from lack of health care to Emperor Lieberman’s front lawn?
Heck, he’d probably start proudly hoisting them up.
Brian J
@Reks:
It’d give me a lot of pleasure to see Lieberman fall down a flight of stairs. If anyone knows where he is, tell me, so I can find him and give him a big push.
Seriously though, it’ll be so sweet to see his ass booted out of office in a few years. Like a foul and unpleasant odor, he won’t go away. I’m sure there will be some opinion page that wants his thoughts and/or some think tank that is interested in his thoughts on how to render legislation ineffective. But he won’t be in a position to actually affect legislation.
DougJ
Fiago only wanted his pound of flesh, for revenge. On the other hand, Lieberman seems to be strip mining the democratic party with heavy machinery.
I think you may be conflating Merchant of Venice and Othello. And it’s probably not a good idea to compare a Jewish politician to Shylock (he who wanted a pound of flesh).
kwAwk
Well if you ask me Lieberman has succeeded torturing liberals.
But he’s also succeeded in convincing me at least that the liberals were right in trying to bounce his ass out of the party in the first place.
nwithers
@DougJ:
Yeah, you are right. I fail at Google. But the shoe fits.
KCinDC
Brian J, unfortunately I fear that Lieberman, like his pal Bush, is going to get away without paying the just price for his many sins. I seriously doubt that he will run for reelection, so all of our dreams of finally defeating him at the polls will be for naught. He’ll retire into a cushy board position set up by one of the corporations grateful for his legislative favors.
Jim
Krugman has a link to one of his own columns about Lieberman from that brief time when there was hope on this front, between the primary and general in 2006, and what constitutes being “reasonable” and “centrist” in the fine Village of Broderton. It’s infuriating, but a useful reminder of what “with us on everything but the war” has meant over the last few years.
http://select.nytimes.com/2006/08/11/opinion/11krugman.html
KCinDC
I imagine more than a few congressional Democrats are finally realizing the true magnitude of their mistake in failing to wholeheartedly support Ned Lamont after he won the primary in 2006. Too many foolishly believed that Lieberman was their friend or that it didn’t matter which of the candidates won since they were both Democrats.
kwAwk
I’m not so sure. This to me smacks of Lieberman making an effort to appeal to all of those Republicans who put him in office in 2006.
He knows the democrat in 2012 is going to have to ride on Obama’s coat tails, as such if Lieberman has any chance he has to pull in Repub support again as Obama’s foil.
Keith G
@nwithers: You mean, “If the shukh fits”
Jim
@KCinDC:
My fear is that very few of them make the connection. I was glad to see Rosa DeLauro calling for his recall, even if it is a futile gesture. I was trying to remember her stance back in ’06. IIRC, she followed the party line, supported Lieberman through the primary and half-heartedly endorsed Lamont after.
Mnemosyne
Via Booman Tribune, Atrios told him so.
As I said in the thread below: Lieberman. Death by moose trampling. Preferably an incontinent one.
(Was it Stuck who added the “incontinent” refinement? I can’t remember, but whoever it was, it was a good one.)
PeakVT
Baucus knew what he was doing when he allowed the process to drag on forever.
Lolis
Yeah, Baucus deserves much of the blame. I just saw a Kent Conrad quote at Ben Smith saying he was grateful for Lieberman’s actions because he was very uncomfortable with the health care bill, so I think Lieberman probably has five or six Dems cheering him on.
I think Reid royally fuck*d this up, too. The Obama strategy of going for Snowe and doing a trigger in the Senate bill seems prescient at this point in time. Reid, trying to boost his own numbers, included the opt out, and unrealistically raised expectations. Now, he is trying to blame his total capitulation on Obama. Same with some other progressive Dems. Anyone remember the vote that Senate Dems did on sending Gitmo detainees to the US? I think the vote was 98-2. Senate Dems have gleefully stood up to Obama when they wanted to.
Of course Obama has made mistakes. But this is the closest we have ever gotten to universal coverage in America, ever. I won’t let Lieberman ruin this for me if we can get it done.
mclaren
Everyone yammers about Lieberman. Lieberman, Lieberman, Lieberman, oooohhhh, evil eeeeeeeevil Lieberman, he’s the one to blame, ooohhhh it’s all Lieberman’s fault.
BULLSHIT.
Lieberman is a sociopath but he’s just the latest in a long roster of thugs who formed a conga line to hold down health care reform and rape it like a woman.
The instant Obama said “single payer is off the table,” everything that followed became inevitable. Obama gave the signal to Lieberman and every other sociopath on the right that wasn’t going to stand up and fight for genuine reform.
Blame Obama for not having the guts to put single payer on the table. Did anyone think the insurance companies and the Rethugs were going to budge one inch without the spiked bludgeon of single payer in their face?
Seanly
What a puss-filled piece of shit jackass. I may start believing in God just so there can be a Hell for Lieberman to wallow in. His jowly countenance is probably that of one of the greater demons and his Droopy Dog voice serves as the announcer.
trizzlor
I don’t understand why this debate is repeatedly framed as one where Lieberman is wagging the dog. If any of the other senators were unhappy with the concessions being made, they too could step out against the bill and have just as much insane power as Lieberman does. The fact that Sherrod Brown or Bernie Sanders are willing to play nice simply indicates that the initial language was overly beneficial to their constituency to gain a supermajority – a rule that seemed to suit us just fine when the other party was in power.
Weather it’s motivated by logic, greed, spite, or stupidity, Liberman is standing up for some conviction – something senators all too often abdicate on. It’s reasonable to disagree with his position, but our venom needs to be directed at the other senators who are willing to play his game.
Keith G
@KCinDC: My own logic would see the sense in that, but…..Lieberman is ego personified. He is so sure that he is so ultimately right and righteous, at I can’t see him not running.
BTW: “Poor little” Ezra Klein is now on Charlie Rose, solo. I do not think his voice is gonna be diminished anytime soon. If he were stock, I would have started buying years ago, but now I’d be doubling down.
Kryptik
@Lolis:
The question is ‘What can be done?’ As long as Lieberman essentially holds the veto pen, we’re pretty well fucked.
Linkmeister
From the Krugman column Jim linked to in #16:
Now we know, don’t we?
Krugman’s column was written after Lamont defeated Lieberman in the Dem primary in 2006.
jl
If Dionne is operating in reporter mode rather than the standard pull it out of my ass pundit mode, then I do not see why he should be doubted, if he actually kept tabs on the scuttlebutt during negotiations. What he says about Lieberman’s obvious and blatent bad faith is consistent with news reports I have read.
Krugman’s blog has a link to 2006 column on Lieberman. The key sentence from the 2006 column is:
“The question now is how deep into the gutter Mr. Lieberman’s ego will drag him.”
So, Krugman is a better political prognosticator than most of the Village (and he was a crypto-Clintonista!).
I also read several reports that Lieberman more or less admitted to the NY Times that one of the “reasons” (interpreted very loosely) he pulled this garbage is to get back at Kos, Hamsher and the Weiner alligned liberals in Congress. But I have not found that in print myself yet.
If that is true, Lieberman has sealed his fate as one of the most contemptible, squalid, treacherous little sociopathic jerks in the history of the US Congress. Congrats to Lieberman, one of the worse legislators in US history, a blot, a stain, a turd among tuds among the pantheon of Congresspeople!
If I were the Obama, I would go (to put it politely) apeshit about now. I would reconfigure all major legislation so as much of it as possible could be rammed (and I mean effing rammed) through Senate reconciliation and have a little conference in the Congressional Democrats. I would tell the corporate Democrat goofballs that I will oppose them in the next election, block their money for anything and everything, and they would be finished. Everything possible would be rammed through the Senate in reconciliation, and then I would attempt to pass the remaining reforms after I kicked their stinking asses in the midterms.
If they didn’t go along, then I would do that. I would campaign against the corrupt knaves in Congress from now until election day. I would make Truman in 1948 look like David Broder.
I would also fire some people from the WH staff and cabinet.
It would be totally cool. Might end in disaster. But then, maybe that is why I would last about 5 seconds in US politics.
Kryptik
@Linkmeister:
It’s really more like “How deep into the gutter Mr. Lieberman’s ego will drag the Democratic Party”. Because he’s not going down there alone.
Mnemosyne
@trizzlor:
Three months ago, Lieberman claimed that he was the one who proposed the Medicare buy-in. Now, suddenly, it’s the one thing preventing him from voting for the bill.
There’s a word for that, but it ain’t “conviction.”
Mnemosyne
@trizzlor:
Three months ago, Lieberman claimed that he was the one who proposed the Medicare buy-in. Now, suddenly, it’s the one thing preventing him from voting for the bill.
There’s a word for that, but it ain’t “conviction.”
jl
@Linkmeister: Dayam, some one beat me to the Krugman quote. I spent too much time planning out my strategy if I were Obama.
Nick
@mclaren: what? Single Payer didn’t even have 100 votes in the House, let alone 218, I’m not sure why they would be afraid of this, it would never pass…what a naive thing to say.
Linkmeister
@jl: Maybe I scan faster. ;
jl
@mclaren: I agree. Sometimes Obama’s cautious strategy is a loser. I hope he learns (or more accurately, I hope he wants to learn) some lessons from his first year in office.
gwangung
@mclaren: Very pretty dream, but implausible. Single payer was never an option at the beginning. And you’re still playing that wingnut authoritarian song, placing all your hopes and blames on one person. It sounds awful coming from a so-called progressive.
Thoroughly Pizzled
One problem with reconciliation, if I’ve heard correctly, is that the person in charge of it would be the chair of the Budget committee, Kent Conrad, who was never a big fan of the public option. He might end up being another Baucus, or worse.
Keith G
Beating the same horse, Ezra’s commentary on Charlie Rose was somber, insightful and masterful. He went so far as to compare the near future of our national legislature with the present day conditions of the state legislature in California. A chilling, chilling assessment not lightly made.
If you have missed this, you will be able to stream it at Rose’s site.
Wile E. Quixote
@DougJ
It’s a bad comparison. Shylock wasn’t as much of a piece of shit as Joe Lieberman ($, Aetna) is. And Shylock wasn’t married to a corporate whore like Hada$$ah Lieberman either.
jl
I do agree that there is too much attention on Lieberman (but how could that not be given his grotesque act?). Baucus, Conrad, Lincoln, Snowe, Collins, Lieberman are all about the same on substance. Corrupt, petty, small minded, arrogant and irresponsible legislators.
One thing I will say for Lieberman, he is a fink with a kind of audacity and courage rare in corrupt two-faced finks and creeps (which I think more or less describes the whole gang mentioned above).
I ask you, how many people would be willing to disgrace themselves, to eat shit in public, to throw onself on the trash bin of history in front of the whole nation? How many people would stand up in front of the whole nation and challenge them to decide whether they were moronic, vile, or despicably corrupt, or a creepy nothing?
Lieberman has the courage to stand up, light the fuse and disgrace himself with a kind of deranged smug self-righeousness that few of us lesser mortals could muster. He has a bravery that the others do not have.
They are all a disgrace.
mclaren
You guys who keep saying “single payer was never an option” are the ones who are naive.
Do you people have amnesia? Just 3 years ago everyone was repeating the “common wisdom” that America will elect a black president…someday…but not in 2008. Because, you know, that Obama guy, he has no experience, and he’s just not a realistic candidate. He doesn’t have a chance.
For years and years, everyone assured Martin Luther King that his dream of voting rights for blacks was a pretty dream, but impossible.
Things are only impossible in politics until they’re not.
You guys need to remember the grafitti of the French left uprisings in 1968 — BE REALISTIC: ATTEMPT THE IMPOSSIBLE.
Brian J
@KCinDC:
You know, I’d be fine with that. He’s still going to have some sort of influence if he wants to, but he won’t have a vote.
@trizzlor:
For a long, long time, I thought this was the reason behind his actions. But he’s holding a gun to the head of health care reform, and just when everyone keeps meeting his demands, he keeps adding new ones, threatening to shoot. Unless he’s got a very good reason for reversing his position from just three months ago, ideological conviction is not the cause. Something else, likely a personal vendetta, is.
@jl:
I’ve often thought the same thing. Some would decry this as political extortion, but nobody forces individuals to run as Democrats. If they didn’t want to do what the leader of their party says, they’d be free to find something else to do or join another party. No doubt the press would shit itself, but that too would pass.
It’s an appealing idea, and I wonder if the White House has considered it. My guess is, they have, but have concluded it just wouldn’t work.
jl
@Thoroughly Pizzled: Well, in my strategy, in my make believe presidency, I would personally read Conrad the riot act, calmly and with great respect. After a calm respectful discussion of options, Conrad would have a detailed of list of things to do in complete unquestioning obediance. He would be made to understand, calmly and with all due respect, that he will not even burp unexpectedly without prior consultation. Or I oppose him in the next election, publicly, starting the day after he does not do what he agreed to do.
Probably a good thing I am not president. Be glad for that no matter how much you are disatssfied with Obama.
In edit: would either work or end in total disaster, but it would be exciting.
Thoroughly Pizzled
@mclaren:
Historical analogies are inherently flawed, but usually people don’t go out of their way to make them appear ridiculous.
KCinDC
Brian J, don’t worry, I’m sure that even after he leaves the Senate, Lieberman will always have a seat reserved on all the Sunday political shows, right next to McCain.
Darryl
“Obviously, this is one of those things where, structurally, it is insane that Joe Lieberman has so much power. And in the aftermath of any defeat, it’s easy to spin “for want of a nail, the war was lost” narratives. So I guess this should all be taken with a grain of salt. But it’s an interesting analysis.”
Indeed, but we have a wholly broken and corrupt system which can’t be fixed by a few peoples’ good intentions. And shit, how could it, half the voters think Adam had a pet veliciraptor, and the other half think Harry Reid could snap his finger and deliver a single-payer system. There won’t be real change until these tards (by which I mean, the voters) precipitate a complete collapse. (Not that I think it’s equivalent between the parties, I’d put the republicans at 95% retards but the dems at merely 50%.) That’s the only way FDR had any ability, leaders are given more power when things have totally melted down.
I’m just trying to figure out what country to watch the disaster from. New Zealand? Canada?
Darryl
If you want to know how bad things are about to become, realize that the big baby boomer group, who are about to become the super-voting elderly, are disproportionately trained to believe that gummint always bad, tax cuts always good.
The next 20 years are going to suck donkey balls for Murka. I hope to read about it from a cafe 1,000 miles away, instead of the belly of the beast.
Martin
@mclaren:
I think there’s a bit of a difference in magnitude between convincing people to vote for a black guy and completely upending the national health care system, an effort I’d compare to the manufacturing rampup for WWII.
I’m not saying it couldn’t happen, but doing it in one shot would require a much larger crisis than we’re in.
Martin
If there was no filibuster and the party split was 50/50 wouldn’t this still be true?
Sorry, but the power of any one member in a voting group is inversely proportional to the size of the voting block. This doesn’t happen as often in the House not because they don’t have a filibuster, but because they have 4 1/2 times as many members, so it’s significantly easier to find that key vote.
There’s also the case that the media generally doesn’t give a fuck about the House, so there’s significantly less payoff from showboating.
Kelly
When I saw saw Liebergeld in Krugman’s title my first thought was the livestock sense of geld.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/paying-the-liebergeld/
danimal
You know, the last vote needed is always going to come at a great cost. I don’t care if it’s vote #60, #55 or #50. Unfortunately, the leverage just happens to lie with a Sith Lord in today’s Senate.
Luckily, Holy Joe doesn’t seem interested in starting pointless wars or seeing hundreds of thousands of people die to satisfy his lust for power. Oh wait…
FlipYrWhig
@mclaren:
I think they got that from the musical “Man of La Mancha.”
Steeplejack
Off topic, but I just got home a little while ago and don’t see an open thread. For the Balloon Juice archives , here is the screen capture of Tunch’s incursion into gop.am last night. Notice how the white paw of death is poised to strike. And yet the White One remains Zen, remains . . . “I’ve got this.” The Tunch abides.
It is written: “The mountain does not move, because the mountain does not need to move.”
Brian J
@KCinDC:
How likely is it that one of the two, or perhaps both of them, will be the first guests on that new Chuck Todd/Savannah Guthrie show?
jl
@Steeplejack: The Tunchforce abides in the GOP.am pwn. ‘Tis a sign.
The Other Steve
I think Joe would be hard pressed to push some other issue. He played his last card, and now the expectation is this thing passes.
If it does not, 2010 is going to be a disaster.
We were talking today, and this is why Republicans get support, cause they get things done. Even if they are bad ideas, they get ’em done. The Democrats can’t even get good ideas through.
The Other Steve
@mclaren : I see no scenario where single payer could pass through the US Congress.
I just don’t see how you’d be able to convince the doctors to be on board while telling them how nice it’ll be once they start working for half the pay.
Nellcote
@danimal:
Remember when Lieberman was rumoured to replace Rumsfield? At least he wouldn’t be in the senate now…
Steeplejack
@jl:
Word.
Tecumseh
I always kind of thought that Baucus’ putzing around over the summer cost Obama between 2-5% points on his approval rating. If he quickly put together a bill like all the other committee chairs did, there’d be less of a perception of political paralysis and ineptitude, Obama wouldn’t have to suffer through that weird time when he had to go out and try and talk up a bill that didn’t exist, and the Town Hall Yellers might not have gained as much traction as they (sadly) did. And the bill would have been done and signed and they could have moved on.
I also think that if it turns out that Joe volunteered to be the fall guy and take heat away from Nelson and Conrad and the others who are too scared to pass this sucker, I wouldn’t be surprised.
jl
@The Other Steve: Not sure about it being a done deal, Lieberman’s brother in arms, Ben Nelson is up next with new demands about abortion. Conrad is muttering that he is glad Lieberman stood up did the deed, and he still has doubts.
There are many vile worms in the apple and a few may not be finished chewing it up.
And who knows, Lieberman may not be done, but may take to take a breather while Nelson and Conrad take a whack.
Found the NY Times story revealing the complete intellectual and moral bankruptcy of Lieberman. Now he says he changed his mind because the plans were too much like those proposed by people who were too liberal, in his view. He was afraid of a sneaky plot that would lead to single payer (a standard bogus nonsensical dimwit GOP line) See it and wonder, this Very Serious Person, who is worthy of endless attention from the Village idiots decided that a proposal he advocated three months ago was no longer worthy because it was OK with a Bad Crowd. So what is that, number six or seven of his bogus reasons?
‘ And he said he was particularly troubled by the overly enthusiastic reaction to the proposal by some liberals, including Representative Anthony Weiner, Democrat of New York, who champions a fully government-run health care system.
“Congressman Weiner made a comment that Medicare-buy in is better than a public option, it’s the beginning of a road to single-payer,” Mr. Lieberman said. “Jacob Hacker, who’s a Yale professor who is actually the man who created the public option, said, ‘This is a dream. This is better than a public option. This is a giant step.’”
Some Democratic senators who have discussed the health care proposal with Mr. Lieberman have said his positions are inconsistent and at times incoherent. ‘
(snip)
‘ After the Senate Democrats met on Monday night and it seemed likely that Mr. Lieberman’s demands would be met, he pronounced himself “encouraged.” He insisted that he was not obstructing the process and suggested that Democrats should be grateful for his help in getting the bill approved. ‘
(snip)
‘ Senator Ben Nelson, Democrat of Nebraska, also has expressed serious reservations about the Senate bill. ‘
http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/lieberman-vs-the-public-option-patriarch/
What a sick joke some of these shameless frauds are. These messes are our legislators. If you do not express gratitude to Senator Lieberman if you see him, he will deem you, serf, to be ungrateful. The sages of our nation will nod in sad agreement about the loss of civility and the shrill extremist left, and the damage it is doing to the genius of the American Way. And Lieberman is a Very Serious Person.
Mnemosyne
@The Other Steve:
There’s only one way, and it would only work on doctors fresh out of med school: promise to forgive their medical school loans in exchange for them becoming general practitioners for a minimum of, let’s say, 5 years.
Older docs would never go for it, but you could certainly start picking off the younger ones, especially since most of them end up having to take jobs with HMOs that don’t pay all that great anyway.
jl
And a bonus: Jacob Hacker basically calls, (in my very humble opinion), Lieberman a bald faced liar:
“I am saddened that Senator Lieberman would attribute to me words I never have spoken (or thought) and even more saddened that he would suggest that he made such a fundamental decision on the basis of what I didn’t say.”
You read and you decide:
http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/lieberman-vs-the-public-option-patriarch/
jl
Forgot to add that the link in my last comment includes the complete text of both of Hacker’s public statements on the Medicare buy-in plan.
You read and you decide.
I think it shows, as one more superfluous instance, that Lieberman is a corrupt liar, a transparent liar, a atrociously bad liar, and a stupid liar, plain and simple.
We are not even lead by good liars anymore. I am ashamed to be a US citizen right now. Mark Twain would be in tears at the ruination and fall in the artistry of our ruling knaves.
Ruckus
@Darryl:
Small consolation here but thanks for not putting us all in that group. Some of us aren’t completely greedy fucks.
And if you’re going to move do it before it’s too late. Most sane countries have age limits on emigrating unless you can and are willing to make somewhat substantial donations to the countries balance sheet in one fashion or another. I missed the boat by a year.
Ruckus
@jl:
Need a vp?
Ruckus
@The Other Steve:
Physicians for a National Health Program
Many Dr. already are asking for just such a program.
US doctors support universal health care
Chuck Butcher
There is a danger in using sledgehammers in a body like the US Senate, their very effectiveness encourages their use. Chairs, seats, offices, and earmarks are all subject to the ruling Caucus’ votes. If enough members of that Caucus can be persuaded to vote for/against someone’s political career it can be done.
Remember that one thing LBJ had going for him was information – between J Edgar and LBJ’s time in Congress he knew where bodies were buried and who owed what to whom and why and what levers were at hand. Don’t even think he was a real popular guy. Yes, JFK’s death gave LBJ some sentimental leverage, but he played a very rough power game. Times and people are different, but hard core power usage still exists. It is a dangerous way to go and heading down the BushCo/GOP road is bad news for a party, especially the Democrats.
I happen to think that a procedural vote like cloture merits that hard ball game, I sure don’t thnk so about the floor vote. I blame the entire Democratic Caucus for how this has been allowed to play out, not just Reid. Reid cannot make the Caucus go where it will not though the Caucus can surely shove Reid where they desire to go.
This is why I am done with them until I see just how bad a mess they’ll let this get to. At this stage, no bill is better than what they’ve gotten to. Where it stands the mandate should be a deal breaker for any actual Democrat, it has to go or you’re simply a corporate welfare shill. You can make that choice and call it a (D) victory if you choose, I won’t call it any such.
I find EJ Dionne a pretty uneven proposition as a writer and as a journalist. He can get an awful lot real right and turn right around and be a major tool. This has the smell of his good work.
Riggsveda
Lieberman has no more power than any one of the senators who favored a more liberal bill. No more than, say, Roland Burris, or Bernie Sanders, or Russ Feingold, any one of whom could derail the bill and kill it by refusing to allow this gift of captured consumers to corporate power to keep breathing.
Scott
The next Democratic majority leader had better start his or her tenure with a good, solid, brutal beat-down on one or more of the Blue Dogs. Literally, if need be. Throw a serious scare into the rest of them, and they’ll behave.
We’ve got wimps running the Democratic Party right now, and it’s led to zero party discipline. The bad kids will always act up when they know there’s no one who’ll punish them.
Xenos
@DougJ: re. Shylock — at least Shakespeare gave Shylock a coherent motivation for his wickedness. What legit reason does Lieberman have? The little jerk has been lionized and coddled by left and right and center, and still this tantrum and betrayal.
I think I would prefer the company of Shylock over Holy Joe any day.
geg6
Well, this is what I’ve been saying for two days, ever since Reid came out and announced the newest “agreement.”. Amd have been getting smacked around a bit around here for beong too pessimistic. This bill is or should be dead. It will have nothing in it for consumers. It will be a giveaway all the way to Joe’s constitutents, the insurance companies and pharma. And if a single progressive senator votes for it, they are dead to me. This country sucks and with President Lieberman in charge, is officially a failed state. We are all California now.
The Grand Panjandrum
It’s fairly well documented that Joe Lieberman’s spouse is making money from the health care industry. Of course, the Lieberman’s are not unique in this matter. Many Senatorial spouses are compensated by industries that regularly lobby in DC. I would like to propose some reform on these ratfuckers, ala the Hyde Amendment. We could call it the Lieberman Amendment, or the No Mo’ Joementum Act which would proscribe a Senator’s spouse from receiving even one nickel of compensation from any industry that receives money from the Federal government. If it’s good enough for women of reproductive age in this country to not receive any federal aid then most certainly it is good enough for the spouses of our elective and appointed federal officials, no?
SiubhanDuinne
DougJ, I fell asleep just before midnight last night so didn’t see any of this thread until I woke up about half an hour ago. And once again I must congratulate you on coming up with a note-perfect, spot-on thread title. Completely apart from the actual subjects you come up with and your analyses of those topics, you have a real gift for finding/writing great, clever, memorable titles.
/fan club
PeakVT
@Riggsveda: Lieberman has no more power than any one of the senators who favored a more liberal bill.
Not exactly. There is a asymmetry here because Lieberman would be perfectly happy to do nothing, while Sanders and others would be very upset if no improvements were made. That gives Lieberman a lot more power, which is increased by the supermajority rule. In the short run, the current bill would still do a number of things to get more people covered, fund community health centers, etc., that would prevent a number of unnecessary deaths. However, politically, and in the long run for the nation’s health care situation, the bill is a real setback. How should a legislator who serious about improving people’s lives choose what to do?
El Cid
I hate Lieberman, but I’m also sick of every step of this process which was taken so as to maximally empower every ‘centrist’ insurance whore and opponent of actual health care reform.
I’d really, really like to ascribe it to ‘stupidity’ or ‘weakness’, but that just gets old.
Jake Nelson
I keep quoting this one with regard to Lieberman, but I keep feeling the need:
“Some men aren’t looking for anything logical, like money. They can’t be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.”
Jack
I think it only looks insane if you believe or want to believe that Lieberman is an obstructionist outsider, and not in fact essential to the whole ratchet racket:
http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org/stopme/chapter02.html
debit
Due to my rage and subsequent inability to discuss this issue with any amount of rationality or objectivity, I can’t contribute to the discussion. However, I am compelled to note that I’ve now been earwormed with one of my most hated songs. Pick your titles with care, people.
Phoenix Woman
No, they didn’t hallucinate his then-willingness to back the buy-in. Here’s video of Lieberman backing this in September:
http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/12/14/video-surfaces-of-lieberman-supporting-medicare-buy-in-just-three-months-ago/
The reasons for the 180?
— His ego
— Pissing off liberals: http://firedoglake.com/2009/12/15/senator-hissyfit-lets-the-mask-slip/
Just call him Senator Hissyfit.
Phoenix Woman
@debit:
Just recite “Senator Hissyfit” in your head over and over until Martha Davis goes away.
Ash Can
Fine. Let him. As he apparently has wanted, he has the spotlight now. Let him keep chipping away at anything and everything that’s still good in the bill. Like Dionne, I see no reason to believe he won’t do exactly that. And he’ll get more and more publicity for it, too.
Am I the only one who smells a set-up here?
Now, granted — and here’s the difficult part — I’m assuming that Obama is actually playing a game of chicken here. In other words, in this scenario he’s essentially handing Lieberman more and more rope (especially if the reports are true that the WH told Reid to find a compromise with Lieberman) until the bill gets to his desk and he stands up and says, “This is a piece of crap, I’m not signing it, I’m kicking it back to Congress, and you jokers had better get it right this time.” Or even, “I put you morons in charge of health care reform and this was the best you could do? Fine. You had your chance. Guess that leaves it up to me.” He’d probably be too classy to call Lieberman out explicitly, but then he wouldn’t have to — the spotlight would still be on, and Joe would still be in it. Whoops.
Anyway, I freely admit that this is a best-case scenario, and the likely outcome will by definition fall short of this. Nevertheless, unless and until Obama essentially contradicts the things he’s been saying all along and comes right out and says, “I’ll sign any HCR bill that Congress puts on my desk, no matter what it says,” I’m still waiting to see how this whole thing plays out. And as for Obama not showing any leadership on the issue, here’s what I see: 1) he made it entirely clear at the outset that he was putting the burden of drafting HCR on Congress, indicating that he wanted to avoid the mistakes of the Clinton Admin, and 2) he’s been meeting with Congressional Dems and their leaders on this subject all along (the latest meeting was just a few days ago). We can only guess at what’s being said behind closed doors, but it clearly shows that Obama is directly engaged in the process.
Now, of course, whatever we end up with, even in my best-case scenario, is not going to automatically and overnight get us caught up to the rest of the developed world. Sad but true. But then, we’ve been falling further and further behind the rest of the developed world, in this and other ways, since the 1980s at least, and if you haven’t seen this happening you haven’t been paying attention. That other countries have higher standards of living now is a given, and I can’t honestly blame those who want to bail on this one and head for them. But I still think this country has an awful lot of potential.
SiubhanDuinne
@debit: It’s a song title? I thought DougJ was referring to the play, or the 1959 film with K Hepburn, E Taylor and M Clift. And I still think it’s a fine title ;-)
DougJ
@SiubhanDuinne
Thank you!
(It’s nice to hear something like this, after I was called a dishonest, shallow, childish nihilist in some of the recent threads.)
BombIranForChrist
The Dems also need to start thinking about what the hell they are going to do after they lose seats in the next elections. I think even the rosiest of rosy predictions have then losing at least one or two, and so then what? With the Republicans united, how will the Dems get _anything_ done? For the next 2-4 years, it will basically be the Snowe / Lieberman Congress, with Snowe somehow managing to never actually cast a vote for the Dems but somehow managing to bend the legislation to her will.
It’s time to start bringing down the hammer, hard. Ok, maybe we can suck up the healthcare bill, but I am ready for heads to roll.
debit
@Phoenix Woman: Nothing works. /sobs
@SiubhanDuinne: Share my pain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9Ox-lGm-wA
DougJ
I thought DougJ was referring to the play, or the 1959 film with K Hepburn, E Taylor and M Clift.
Yes, I was.
It’s also a song by “The Motels”. I was thinking of the play, though.
bemused
If one of my kids had behaved like Lieberman, he would have been grounded for a very long time. Sigh, acting like the egotistical child who will blithely lie to get what he wants & then unconcernedly lie again when caught is an all too common trait shared by large number of people in office. Media news, also.
I just wish that ‘what goes around, comes around’ thingie would kick in asap for Joe.
Phoenix Woman
@Ash Can:
Oh, Obama and Rahm want a bill desperately, as Rahm thinks it was the lack of one that killed the Dems in 1994. (Actually, Rahm’s pushing the NAFTA “kill the unions” sellout had a lot more to do with that, as did the GOP’s successful demagoguing of the Clinton tax hike that saved our bacon and gave us the Clinton Boom, but Rahm has the unfortunate habit of believing his own press releases.)
kay
Harry Reid thought he had the votes but he didn’t have the votes.
In this instance, Lieberman flat-out lied, and it’s easy to trace, but when do we ever have the votes?
Thirty Democratic Senators committed to a public option. Fourteen additional Senators indicated with a vote out of committee or a public statement that they wanted a public option. That’s 44. It’s nowhere close to 60.
debit
@bemused: Remember how we were all reassured that if Joe got out of line they’d take his committee chair away? Ah, I laugh long and hard whenever I think of that.
I also laugh long and hard whenever I think of the campaign promise that we would have the same health care as Congress. That was a hoot. It’s sad the press doesn’t think it’s funny enough to ask anyone about.
Jack
@Phoenix Woman:
Perhaps Lieberman has vested his copious self-image in obstruction, but I see no evidence that this works as his primary motivation.
Lieberman serves his own interests, but they are not exclusively his interests. He serves his class, because that’s what rich and powerful people do with their wealth and power. They protect it, expand it and promote it.
I don’t see any reason for anyone to expect the Senate, or the House, or the Presidency for that matter, to attract people interested in the promotion of poor and working class solutions, except perhaps as bromides and shibboleths.
That’s not what the federal government does. It’s not a great leveler. It’s not permanent agency of social justice. It’s not even structurally liberal, never mind usefully leftist.
Occasionally some Republican administration is so awful, so nakedly aggressive in the destruction of the commons that the Democrats seem better by myopic comparison, but neither party is populated with any semblance of even a plurality of people devoted to undoing their own source of power, or the federal superstructure by which they serve the interests of those who finance them, and their class.
(Or maybe, the barons of industry and finance miscalculate so badly, and so often, that someone, anyone has to give the pretense of “dealing” with this or the next crisis of liquidity, solvency or public messaging.)
Especially not in the Senate, designed as it was to restrict and obstruct popular passion for change and alteration.
Joe Lieberman is not an anomaly. He’s just less inclined to pretend he serves the interests of “the rest of us” than many of his so-called liberal compatriots.
Perhaps we should be, if only with irony, grateful to him for that. John Kerry, Hilary Clinton and Barack Obama are just as venal, just as committed to the preservation of a system of government which requires wars of aggression and the destruction of the commons (this is how we generate wealth, capital and political capital in late-capitalist “America”).
They just put up marginally better marketing campaigns, on their way to the same “betrayals” of those they allege to help.
(People who feel betrayed by Democrats just weren’t paying attention to what Democrats do and have historically done…)
Tattoosydney
We can haz open thread plz?
@debit:
I have Freddy Mercury for an earworm.
debit
@Tattoosydney: Oh god, thank you.
How is I’ve never seen that vid before? They all look so freaking adorable in drag, I just want to pat their cute little butts!
General Winfield Stuck
Quote of the day from the Connecticut Puke Funnel
Yea, right.
Tattoosydney
@debit:
Pleasure.
(I really wanted to link to “The show must go on” – Freddie (which I misspelled above, I note) at his most bombastic drama-queenist, but all the accompanying videos were tribute montages. Ugh.)
Kryptik
@General Winfield Stuck:
That’s because he hasn’t outright killed the reform process like he’d been hoping. Once everything falls through (and at this point, I’m pretty well assured it will, if not thanks to Lieberhack then thanks to Nelson, Snow, Collins, Conrad, etc., etc.), he’ll be all smiles on Meet the Press when he says he’s glad that his ‘colleagues’ have seen the light and ‘started from scratch’.
Fuck him.
debit
@Jack: Here’s some advice: when you’re waging in a war of words, bringing bigger words won’t turn the battle in your favor. It doesn’t make you sound smarter than anyone else; it makes you sound like you found the Thesaurus, which, by the way, any 12 year old can do. Many of them wind up writing fan fiction describing a penis as “his turgid manhood.” Do you go by Jack on ff.net as well?
Moderated for penis? Really? How about cock?
Fulcanelli
@El Cid:
Agreed, and well put.
I’ve learned a lot about the legislative process from reading many of the well reasoned, nuanced posts from those more learned than I on the subject who post here on this blog.
Some here will no doubt frag my ass, but I will never buy into a ‘something is better than nothing’ piece meal legislative approach to overhauling a system that is allowing thousands of working people to fucking DIE both financially and literally in this country. This isn’t a fucking legislative pork project and should never have been treated like one.
Obama and the actual Democrats should have known there would be blood and guts on the floor after this fight and should have been willing to either put on the brass knuckles and spill it or stay on the fucking porch.
IMO the bill as it stands now, if passed, is gonna be a PR nightmare for Obama and the Dems going forward. Obama’s ‘bipartisanship’ and blue dog ‘dithering’ gave the opposition, well funded in all it’s forms, ample time to tool up to obstruct, humiliate and wear down both congress and those of us who believe people shouldn’t die in America because they can’t afford to spend, in many cases, %25 or more of their yearly AFTER tax income on health insurance ALONE.
Between health insurance, car insurance, life insurance, homeowner’s insurance, disability insurance, debt insurance on credit cards etc. how much are you spending every year on “insurance”? And then they don’t pay out when you need them? I loathe insurance companies with the fire of a thousand super novae. Break them or suffer the consequences, like we are now.
ksmiami
Interloper here – Basically Reid or Obama should just say we have single payer already – either we can open medicare to all or just threaten to blow it up. If Medicare is as bad and as expensive as holy joe claims then just say we can no longer afford any sort of social spending and sorry seniors that’s just the way it goes and you can thank Joe Lieberman for bringing it to our attention. Here is his home address and phone number…
But then again, I don’t mind being an a–le once in awhile and I don’t get why Obama has let himself look like such a weakling on this.
PeakVT
Lieberman said he told his colleagues that he hasn’t “really had a lot of fun” in recent days.
People vote for senators so they can go to Washington and have fun? Who knew?
debit
It’s sad and lonely in the moderation room. I’ve learned my lesson. Never use the clinical word for male reproductive organs.
matt
Joe will have the blood of thousands on his hands, but he likes em that way, and seeing his israeli/bushie buddies aren’t keeping him fed with the blood of palistinians anymore he needs to take it out on us.
NobodySpecial
@debit:
Wow. I never knew dingdong was on the list!
FlipYrWhig
@ksmiami:
Probably because acting “tough” wouldn’t accomplish anything. If the goal is to get the best possible bill through a ridiculous process that will in all likelihood never be so _easy_, you forgo your ability to be an asshole to the people who stand in your way.
But then again, I think the much more acute worry about presidential “weakness” arises from something else: politically, the test is bill/no bill (putting policy specifics aside for the moment). Ending up with no bill would never read as anything but a massive failure, and from that would emerge the kind of “weakness” that matters, the “Failed Obama Presidency” narrative that hampers the accomplishment of anything even slightly controversial. I know that means that in the race to end up with a bill you go through moments of looking “weak,” but there’s nothing more weakening then getting tagged with “Can’t Get Shit Done.”
slippy
@The Other Steve:
Maybe by explaining to them that if they don’t get paid this way, they won’t be fucking getting paid any way here soon.
Health insurance is reaching a tipping point where it will no longer be of any worth to pay into the system because quite simply the system is useless. Instead of taking my money and putting it into a pool of risk and paying my claims out of that pool, my health insurance company is by degrees slipping out of one responsibility after another until basically the deal is that I pay them thousands of dollars a year and they don’t bother paying for any of the claims I make. It’s approaching the categorization of outright fraud and theft because I am shelling out TONS of cash that don’t go towards taking care of my or anyone else’s health. And the only reason I myself hang onto it is because that catastrophe that might happen to me should be covered, but I actually already know that it’s not. I know that if I get sick enough I will be without my policy of mutual assurance and instead fucked in the drive-through.
So when it’s just the same cost to just go to the doctor and pay outright as it would have been to pay the co-pay. When it’s just the same cost to buy my prescriptions right out of the pharmacy, rather than waste time trying to get $0.10 coverage out of the fucking insurer. When I know for a fact that if I go six months with a long-term illness that I will be on my own anyway, why the FUCK do I keep paying into the insurance plan?
The catastrophic, utterly disastrous failure of this healthcare bill which seems imminent now will simply pave the way for a further ruinous collapse of the insurance industry and healthcare system as trends that we have begged our staggerwits moron elected officials to rein in finally run away to their unsustainable plateau and the system flies to fucking flaming steaming pieces right in front of our eyes.
Senyordave
I loathe the GOP, but unless the economy is going gangbusters by mid-summer (unemployment would have to be at least below 8%), the Republicans will win the mid-terms big and probably deserve to.
The Democrats are a joke as a party, they have no ability to get almost anything through domestically. If they don’t repeal DADT early in 2010, and if Obama doesn’t then do it through Executive Order, than he is a joke.
And if Lieberman is not stripped of all power and formally told to leave the Democrat caucus, the Democrats can kiss my ass next tme they want money. The Democrats should shun that piece of trash.
Lieberman (or Senator Aetna) is a bitter old man who is married to a whore for the drug companies. No conflicts there, right.
geg6
@FlipYrWhig:
No bill would be a win for actual people at this point. This presidency is already failed, no “narrative” needed. The presidency is failed because the country is failed. We are nothing but a banana republic and the sooner we understand that the better. But keep on worrying about a dead country and inept presidency/legislature looking “failed.” And have fun eating your shit sandwich. Failed is what it looks like when people are forced by law to buy insurance at top dollar instead of food and shelter or having the IRS fine them through their collection system. Because this is the choice they’ve now been given. If this is what they get, you haven’t begun to see what “failed” looks like. You think “can’t get shit done” is the most weakening thing that can happen to these assholes? You’re dreaming. “Fucked us over again for your corporate overlords” is the most weakening thing that can happen to a party or a presidency. I know I, for one, will not be working for or contributing to any of these assholes after this. And since I’ve been a Dem activist/small contributor for the past 33 years, this is not said lightly. I have never been some sort of crazy eyed far lefty and always been in the mainstream of conventional Democratic circles. But this is a betrayal too far for me. There is nothing left in the bill that anyone calling themselves a liberal or a progressive or even a center-leftist can point to that can mitigate the fucking over they are getting in order to appease mother fucking Joe Lieberman, the Blue Dogs, and the health insurance industry/Pharma. Dr. Dean has it right.
A presidency that has lost it’s base is already a failed presidency, regardless of whether you or the media call it that at this point. And the base is lost. Who is gonna be out there hitting the streets in 2010 or 2012 if the base doesn’t do it? Perhaps Joe Lieberman will. I’m sure everyone will be happy to vote for whomever Joe supports.
Fulcanelli
@geg6: You rock, girl. Well said. Never mind the opposition, I’ve eaten enough shit sandwiches handed to me by the fuckers I’ve supported financially and voted for to last a lifetime already, now this? Yeah, I know… I’m so shrill.
The “on your feet, or on your knees” moment is coming.