Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Meanwhile over at truth Social, the former president is busy confessing to crimes.

If you voted for Trump, you don’t get to speak about ethics, morals, or rule of law.

Fundamental belief of white supremacy: white people are presumed innocent, minorities are presumed guilty.

I really should read my own blog.

Despite his magical powers, I don’t think Trump is thinking this through, to be honest.

Battle won, war still ongoing.

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

Never forget that he train is barreling down on Trump, even as he dances on the tracks.

Republicans can’t even be trusted with their own money.

Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.

If you thought you’d already seen people saying the stupidest things possible on the internet, prepare yourselves.

Prediction: the gop will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

We’re not going back!

Maybe you would prefer that we take Joelle’s side in ALL CAPS?

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

Many life forms that would benefit from greater intelligence, sadly, do not have it.

Donald Jessica Trump found guilty as fuck – May 30, 2024!

After dobbs, women are no longer free.

The most dangerous place for a black man in America is in a white man’s imagination.

Hot air and ill-informed banter

Someone should tell Republicans that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, or possibly the first.

Conservatism: there are people the law protects but does not bind and others who the law binds but does not protect.

Innocent people don’t delay justice.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Cloture Vote Open Thread

Cloture Vote Open Thread

by | 345 Comments

This post is in: 

The best part about a 1 am vote is that the average age of the Senate is about 132 years old, which means that they are all up about eight hours past when they are used to having a warm cup of milk and dreaming of Lawrence Welk reruns and the good old days before that rock and roll music and the internet tubes ruined everything, so their normally awful speaking style is worse than usual. Joy.

President McCain is speaking about majority will. Didn’t we see that last November?

Reader Interactions

345Comments

  1. 1.

    Yutsano

    I’d turn it on to CSPAN but A) I’m not at home and have no control of the remote and B) I’m trying to stay awake for as long as possible. The plus side is I’m not alone so I have other live humans to bug.

  4. 4.

    Zam

    I love how they cut to Mccain but will not likely play anyone else on CNN unless they are named Lieberman.

  5. 5.

    Max

    So far –

    Lamar Alexander complains the bill is too long –

    McCain is a grumpy fuck and thank god he’s not president –

    Tom Harkin is dressed in a black jacket, red vest, blue shirt and green tie, but he’s badass.

    EDIT – I see on the Twitter that Harkin is colorblind. Makes sense now.

  7. 7.

    Steeplejack

    Man, I would love to get in on this thread, but I am bushed. I had to walk through deep snow today to slake my lust for a rib-eye steak and a gigantic baked potato. I even bought champagne and then didn’t drink it.

    I’m off to bed. Somebody wake me up if President McCain goes to sleep in the well of the Senate. Bonus points if someone then puts his hand in a bucket of warm water and makes him wet himself.

  10. 10.

    mcc

    So this isn’t the real cloture vote, right? it’s 1 of 3? or 2 of 3? or something?

    But we can assume however people vote on this one, they’ll vote on the next 2?

  11. 11.

    J. Michael Neal

    Jim Webb is complaining about Obama:

    “Over the past year, the process of debating this issue often overwhelmed the substance of fixing the problem. The Obama Administration declared health care reform to be a major domestic objective, but they did not offer the Congress a bill. Nor did they propose a specific set of objectives from which legislation could be derived. Consequently, legislation was developed independently through five different Congressional committees, three in the House and two in the Senate. This resulted in a large amount of contradictory information and a great deal of confusion among our public.”

    I’m sympathetic to this criticism if it’s made by someone on the outside of the system, though I’m not sure it made that much difference. From Jim Webb, though, this boils down to, “OMG, the president expected the legislature to actually legislate!”

    Color me underwhelmed.

  12. 12.

    Anya

    President McCain seemed so bitter, talking about Candidate Obama and Senator Obama rather than President Obama. Just looking at his bitter and resentful mug makes me so grateful that we have Obama as president.

  13. 13.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    The best part about a 1 am vote is that the average age of the Senate is about 132 years old

    They are just two hours early for their 3AM Pee.

  14. 14.

    SarahLoving

    My parents dragged me to the Lawrence Welk resort in San Diego when I was 15. My mother, from rural Texas, seemed blissful. My brother and I were bored out of our skulls, of course. That, and horrified at all the leisure suits and sea of gray hair milling around aimlessly.

    It was one of the few times in my earlier years that I caught a glimpse at how different the world my mother came from (and seemed to wish to go back to) was from my understanding of life in Southern California.

    Interestingly aunt will visit this same resort in January (they’re all from Texas and are staunch Republicans), so I’m glad my Christmas travels will exclude a repeat visit. The scene crys out for David Lynch to me, but they love it and are happy as clams. Needless to say, I’ve learned to avoid political discussions with that branch of the family.

    Too bad that many can’t engage in rational discussions – several of them could use better health care and an understanding of the issues.

  15. 15.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Zam

    Me too. As I whined on the filibuster thread, I have no C-SPAN 2 now, thanks to Charter Communications in their infinite wisdom. Unfortunately CNN seems to be the only other place where they’re covering it live, and they really aren’t — they’re just bloviating in their Villagey way over a muted split screen of the Senate floor. C’mon, I would really rather hear Tom Harkin than Dana Bash or David Gergen.

  18. 18.

    General Winfield Stuck

    I am going to watch a movie. This vote I will predict will be 60 yea and 40 nay. My Acme brand Crystal ball never lies, well, hardly ever.

  20. 20.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    I’d love to watch it too but I gotta crash. Fuckers are making me work reaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllly early in the morning at 8.

  21. 21.

    beltane

    I was ambivalent about the passage of this bill until I read that screed of Jane Hamsher’s. Now I’m looking forward to its passage. I am not, nor will I ever be, a teabagger.

  23. 23.

    Comrade Mary

    Why am I streaming this so early on a Monday morning? All I have is tea, no beer.

    Oh, well. Dodd up right now.

  24. 24.

    J. Michael Neal

    @beltane:

    I was ambivalent about the passage of this bill until I read that screed of Jane Hamsher’s. Now I’m looking forward to its passage. I am not, nor will I ever be, a teabagger.

    Personally, I brew decaf.

  27. 27.

    Yutsano

    @J. Michael Neal: So he would have preferred the Hillary approach? Remember how that one worked out though Jim? I’d suggest he save his energy for having a long conversation with Joseph Cao in VietNamese should he waver on the final vote.

    Side note: would it not be just badass if Webb would sneak up on Grandpa and scream something really loud in VietNamese? I sometimes enjoy being on the smart side, even if Webb is a reformed Republican like our fearless leader.

  28. 28.

    fraught

    Do the R’s actually have to vote or is it that the vote for cloture needs to be 60 no matter how many vote against it? What I’m getting at is : do the R’s have to stay up or can they go to bed while Reid and lieberman and Byrd have to stay up half the night?

  29. 29.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Fvck CNN. We hear McCain, we hear Cornyn, but they talk over Harkin?

    Liberal media my wrinkly old ass.

    (Okay, they are letting us hear Dodd.)

  31. 31.

    asiangrrlMN

    @Yutsano: Oh my god you made me chortle! You are wicked, and that’s why you’re my FH#2.

    @AhabTRuler: Gah. That means I have to watch.

    @Max: Ditto this. I would only add, with a rusty pitchfork in every orifice until they scream for mercy at which point we inform them they no longer have healthcare.

  32. 32.

    scarpy

    @fraught — The 60 have to vote regardless — it’s three-fifths of all sitting (i.e. elected) senators.

    But i imagine the GOP want to come in anyway, lest someone say they didn’t fight hard enough.

    btw — Lawrence Welk! My grandma loved that show. Even his name sounds geriatric.

  33. 33.

    asiangrrlMN

    God. I hate Mitch McConnell. I really do. Fuck you, asshole.

    No, motherfucker, you don’t get to take the moral high ground, fucker. It happened because the Republicans are a bunch of self-congratulatory wankers. No you don’t! Motherfucker!

  35. 35.

    Comrade Mary

    Fuck Mitch McConnell and his “forcing a vote in the dead of night” and his SHOCKED! reaction to the existence of pork.

  37. 37.

    geg6

    Well, I don’t have to work for the next two weeks, so I will stay up for the vote (but being subjected to Mitch McConnell might be a bit too much). I don’t like this bill one bit, but I will take my happy where I can. And the sour pusses that will be on the faces of the GOP when it passes will be some solace and make me marginally happy. And Jane Hamsher has lost it. No fucking way that I could join up with that crowd for any foreseeable reason.

  40. 40.

    Yutsano

    @Comrade Mary: Fine then. He can go the Grandpa route and stop sending all those neat nifty little pet projects back to Kentucky. Then see how fast his ass gets booted from office.

  42. 42.

    asiangrrlMN

    @Comrade Mary: I can’t believe he can say that with a straight face. You’re all voting no because you are dickwads, asshole! Give me a fucking break. You are a dipshit.

    BECAUSE YOU FUCKING OBSTRUCTED EVERY STEP OF THE WAY! No, it’s about you being a fucking–mute.

  44. 44.

    neff

    Right now Mitch McConnell is seriously blaming the democrats for the fact that republicans have chosen to vote as a bloc against everything as opposed to bills from decades ago that had bipartisan support

  46. 46.

    scarpy

    also, we should all have a moment of silence for the poor, poor Senate staffers — the ones that make the place go, not the lobbyists-in-training. They haven’t had a day off in a *month* and what’s worse, they have spent that month listening either to drivel like what’s on CSPAN now or hours-long readings of legislative gibberish,.

    AND tomorrow, when all the rest of DC’s federal government gets a day off because this town is as breathtakingly incompetent at snow removal as it is at running the country, they still have to be there, still listening.

    OTOH, they get paid a shitload for what they do.

  47. 47.

    mcc

    Oh my goodness YES it turns out the C-SPAN website has a flash video streaming option now

    When did they add that

    Getting the old options to work on a mac was such an enormous pain

  48. 48.

    donovong

    The Me of a few years ago would not believe that the Me of today is sitting up at the crack of doom, waiting for a freaking Senate procedural vote.

    Move over and pass the granola.

  49. 49.

    KG

    Mitch McConnell is off the charts on my Tool-o-meter. I love how he goes through all the previous votes that had so few dissenters. Well, Mitch, there’s a way you can solve that…

  51. 51.

    Comrade Mary

    geg6, you’re one of the thoughtful people here I’ve disagreed with about the bill. I can deal with reasonable and principled disagreement. But Hamsher? I cannot abide the woman’s narcissism and attention whoring. Reading this was the last straw, especially the second update near the bottom about the people with whom she has aligned herself.

    I’d forgotten about her non-apology apology about the use of blackface. I have never been so close to using unfeminist language as I have been tonight.

  52. 52.

    SiubhanDuinne

    I’m going to be a wreck tomorrow this morning for my 9:00 am staff meeting, but now I have to stay up and see it through. And yes, like a stupid, I just poured myself a glass of wine.

    SHUT UP Mitch McConnell you asshat jerk.

  54. 54.

    Yutsano

    @asiangrrlMN: You have to admit that at the end of the day that is pretty fucking funny. I’m willing to bet Webb uses that as an ace in the hole should he ever need it against Grandpa.

  57. 57.

    eemom

    @asiangrrlMN:

    Srsly! Isn’t he just so ESPECIALLY disgusting, even for a rethuglican? That fat jowly face, and that unbearable pole up the ass pomposity. Hate, hate, HATE him.

    Someday, when I am old and retired, perhaps I shall amuse myself by creating a list of the Top 100 Most Hateable Rethuglicans.

  58. 58.

    cliff

    @asiangrrlMN:

    sorry down to the last 2 shots of vodka.

    keep yelling at the screen, shutting it off, wondering whats going on .. flip it on for a few seconds, hear some bullshit .. yell at screen and shut it off again.

    now, there is just 8 min left .. Maaaayyybe I can stretch the booze but I doubt it.

  59. 59.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Dead of night . . . hmmm . . . dead of night . . . . Why does the name Terri Schiavo keep coming into my mind?

  60. 60.

    KG

    @Clutch414: Lieberman wins in a laugher. McConnell barely has jowls.

    And where the fuck did he get this “the vast majority of Americans oppose the bill” bullshit? I thought the numbers were more or less in favor.

  61. 61.

    Max

    McConnell keeps bitching about not knowing the details of a bill he said 6 months ago he would never vote for.

  62. 62.

    neff

    Wonder what part of his rectum McConnell got the “fact” he keeps repeating that Americans are “overwhelmingly” opposed to the bill from

  63. 63.

    Zam

    What the hell is he accusing dems of excessive party loyalty for? Seriously I hope he gets sodomized with a fucking cactus.

  66. 66.

    Comrade Mary

    Now Reid. Why do I want to hit mute again?

    EDIT: I missed McCain, but could probably tolerate his speech if someone makes a decent mashup of it.

  67. 67.

    Max

    @johnny: I liked when McCain quoted his classmate, John Paul Jones.

    SPEAKING OF LATE NIGHT VOTES, LOOKY HERE…

    H.J.Res. 114; Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Res. of 2002; Date/time: October 11, 2002, 12:50 a.m. (Late-night vote)

    via @NattheDem

  68. 68.

    geg6

    Comrade Mary @51: Well, thanks, though there are some here who might disagree. We can disagree on this and still understand that we are all wanting the same goals but disagree, even fervently, on the strategy and tactics. But Hamsher has deeply damaged herself here. No way is there ever any justification for finding common cause with the Teabaggers and Phyllis Schlaflys of the world. Ever.

  71. 71.

    asiangrrlMN

    @eemom: I will help you. I can think of a dozen off the top of my head.

    @neff: Actually, he’s not that far off from the truth. The far left opposes this bill as do the right, but for different reasons. He’s just conflating the two contingencies, much like the FDL/teabagger alliance.

    @cliff: Only eight minutes left? Harry Reid is last?

  72. 72.

    Comrade Mary

    Attention all those of you talking about McDonnell’s dick and/or jowls: I would like to have a few more decades of a great sex life, thank you very much. If you persist in evoking mental images that leave me shivering and crying, this won’t happen.

  77. 77.

    mcd410x

    the youneedcollege.com ads are making me want to shoot someone in the dick. and that’s just wrong.

  79. 79.

    cliff

    well … I assuuuuuuume that the vote will be … er .. now (?? huh.. yea, so much for timing and schedules)

  80. 80.

    Max

    @Morbo: Uh oh…

    HERE’S ANOTHER ONE…

    S 2020: Tax Relief Act of 2005 Date/time: November 18, 2005, 12:05 a.m. (Late-night vote)

    via @NattheDem

  81. 81.

    SiubhanDuinne

    McCain remembers the Louisiana Purchase. Either that or he thinks it’s a Canal Street transaction.

  84. 84.

    johnny

    @Max

    Yeah, it’s ironic that the guy who just lost the presidential election and oversaw record losses in GOP seats says that they “have not yet begun to fight.” A wee bit late, don’t you think, Johnny Mac?

    I, of course, use that nickname derisively, lest there be any doubt.

  87. 87.

    Anya

    @J. Michael Neal: A test case for Webb and the rest of the complainers is the draft financial reform legislation submitted by Obama admin, which is very good, even in Taibbi’s high non corporte worshiping standards. Let’s see how the Senate reacts to it.

  88. 88.

    Yutsano

    @asiangrrlMN:

    Where is the brain bleach?

    Did you use up my supply? Granted you’ve had a lot of usage out of it and I’ve been slacking going to the store to replenish it. Dammit. I could be making cookies right now.

  92. 92.

    eemom

    @AhabTRuler:

    aw, don’t be too hard on him. He’s exhausted. I’ve heard him speak on this subject before and I actually thought that in his quiet way he did convey a real passion. Fashionable as it is to dump on him.

  93. 93.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Gotta give CNN a bit of credit now. MSNBC and Fox are both talking over the floor speeches.

  94. 94.

    mcc

    Poking at google news for “McCain louisiana purchase” I find a lot of indications that “Louisiana purchase” is currently a wingnut nickname for some particular addition to the bill targeted at acquiring the vote of Mary Landrieu. Is it possible that whatever you saw was actually McCain referring to this, but garbling it because of his perpetual habit of flubbing GOP talking points by just repeating half of them and assuming people will just be able to fill in the rest themselves?

  99. 99.

    gwangung

    @asiangrrlMN: Yer welcome (I’m an occasional acquaintance of one of the filmmakers, who’s a singer/actress…she was on LAW & ORDR SVU a couple weeks ago….).

    Asian folks do indeed got game…

  103. 103.

    Comrade Mary

    @mcc: Oh, neat! I remember seeing that a few months ago. A little ray of sunshine as I wait for the “L” section to get called …

  108. 108.

    Anya

    Even Bayh just voted yes and it made me wonder why wasn’t he in front of the camera’s throwing tantrums and being ambiguous about his support for the bill?

  110. 110.

    JMY

    Why are Feingold & Webb mad that the administration didn’t offer it’s own bill? The job of the Senate and House is to draft legislation, make laws, etc. This is exactly the job of Congress, to come up with a bill. The Senate bill doesn’t have a PO b/c they couldn’t get the votes. I don’t think it has anything to do with Obama not advocating for the PO b/c every time it was brought up, he was always supportive. I don’t think it mattered what he did – Nelson, Lieberman, Blanche, etc. were gonna be asses about it. History is about to be made hopefully, and some Dems sure do have a way of spoiling the party. The Senate needs to get their shit together – period.

  114. 114.

    mcd410x

    I think I’ve figured out the progressives’ problem: we’re not get the dead people to the polls like we used to.

    ACORN!

  120. 120.

    Comrade Mary

    The screen is very tiny on my computer, so I can’t tell how they’re registering their votes. Each Senator holds up a little Yay or No sign? Instantaneous brain beams? Gang signs? Interpretive dance?

    Yay! 60-40 on the dot!

  121. 121.

    BR

    Bah, there’s still plenty of Lieberman posturing to be had. Whatever comes out of committee, no matter what it is, he’ll find a way to complain about it and threaten to vote nay.

  127. 127.

    Studly Pantload

    Yeah, when the Clintons’ presented their HCR bill, didn’t Congress bitch that the Executive branch isn’t supposed to write the bills?

    SO relieved to see the cloture vote pass. Watchin’ historical sausage being made.

  129. 129.

    JMY

    @Fern:

    I just find it amazing. I keep thinking, “Isn’t it the job of Congress to create and pass legislation?” Isn’t the president allowing Congress to do what it’s supposed to do, unlike you-know-who?

  131. 131.

    mcc

    Bah, there’s still plenty of Lieberman posturing to be had. Whatever comes out of committee, no matter what it is, he’ll find a way to complain about it and threaten to vote nay.

    Do I understand correctly that if stuff breaks down in conference the House technically can just pass the Senate bill word for word and then it goes right to the President’s desk without the Senate having to act again?

    I’m positive they won’t do that unless it’s that or nothing, but if Lieberman Liebermans and it’s that or nothing I’d expect they will.

  132. 132.

    BR

    @mcc:

    That’s quite possible – I don’t know the rules. (I know that they can do that before conference – can they do it even after conference?)

  134. 134.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Comrade Mary:

    Attention all those of you talking about McDonnell’s dick and/or jowls

    I’m pretty confident Mitch McConnell has no genitalia. He’s just kind of gelatinous from head to toe. His office takes some “Knox’s sparkling calves foot gelatine” and casts it in a vaguely man-shaped form every week.

  136. 136.

    Llellorin

    Thank heavens. I was half-convinced Lieberman was going to pull a last-minute switcheroo just to show us. “Us”, in this case, being everyone not a Senator named Joe Lieberman.

  137. 137.

    Max

    Pisses me off how the media and the republicans are making such a big deal about a vote @ 7pm on Xmas Eve.

    Umm… I have to work until 6pm on that day and for Senator money, I’d gladly stay the extra hour.

  141. 141.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @JMY:

    Some how, some way, Hamsher, Kos, FDL, will find some way to turn this into a bad thing…

    Yeah, because otherwise it isn’t. Haha.

  145. 145.

    BR

    @Max:

    It’s the same shit all over again. Media bobbleheads can only see the world through their own skewed lenses – they get paid shitloads and don’t have to work whenever they don’t want to. They just have to do anything serious for a couple hours a day, and even that is just reading a teleprompter and repeating talking points.

    Having to work on a non-holiday seems so burdensome to them. Just as capital gains taxes was the most important issue to Charlie Gibson during the debates in the primaries. You know, because most Americans make as much as he does.

    Edit: I should add, it’s another argument for the legalization of marijuana. If it does anything, it helps the user see things from a different perspective – something alcohol really doesn’t do.

  147. 147.

    Dee Loralei

    History called tonight, Olympia Snowe sent it directly to voice mail, I guess.

    Maybe she’ll answer history on Christmas Eve. Maybe she’ll answer after it goes through committee.

  148. 148.

    JMY

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    I can hear it now: “If only he kept the public option….” “He turned his back on the people who got him in office…”

    And we wouldn’t be anywhere close to where we are now.

  149. 149.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    It hasn’t passed yet but like it or not, today history was made.

  150. 150.

    Yutsano

    @asiangrrlMN: They should just have to adjourn for the holiday and bug the hell out of Dodge.

    Oh and BTW that whole damn movie makes me laugh to no end.

  151. 151.

    BR

    Is it just me or has Dkos gone way downhill lately? The diaries are filled with 1000+ incoherent ranting comments. It’s not just frustrating to read, it’s almost impossible to navigate just due to sheer volume of nonsense.

  152. 152.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    Okay what’s going on back there in the States? Been a bit busy with work, life, travel, and then dealing with snow this week, though looks like a white Christmas which will be nice, but so, tell me– did that health care bill pass? Did Obama push hard for the public option? Did they keep idiots like Lieberman in line? Are all of the Democrats on the same page? Celebrating a great victory, left, far left, and center?

    What?

    Why are you all looking at me that way?

  155. 155.

    SIA aka ScreamingInAtlanta

    @Max:

    Tom Harkin is dressed in a black jacket, red vest, blue shirt and green tie, but he’s badass.

    Yes he is, and an adorable kooky little guy.

  156. 156.

    JMY

    @gwangung:

    Why do I get the feeling a lot of people will think, “If the radicals hate it and if the Republicans hate it, it can’t be all bad.”

    I get that feeling too, but I think it is up to people to come to their own judgments. The fact that this battle has been fought for decades – to come this close is an accomplishment in itself. Although not perfect, I think this bill will do a lot of good, and will be improved over time. The Civil Rights bill was far from perfect at first.

  161. 161.

    FlipYrWhig

    @BR:

    It’s not just frustrating to read, it’s almost impossible to navigate just due to sheer volume of nonsense.

    So, like Atrios…

  162. 162.

    SIA aka ScreamingInAtlanta

    @SiubhanDuinne: What’s with the bright yellow flash on the CNN screen every 5 seconds? Just want to make sure we know its ZOMG BREAKING NEWS!!!! Very annoying.

  163. 163.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @JMY: Nah, I’m just saying this isn’t the awesomest thing evah you folks are acting like. I understand the exuberance. But the reality is this is a really flawed bill that doesn’t reform health care but instead provides the illusion of reform and thereby actually prevents real and meaningful (and necessary) reform.

    You all say we can fix it, make it better, blah blah. Without rehashing a week’s worth of bullshit, that flies in the face of everything you’ve been saying about why we have to have a flawed bill now. In short, we’ll see.

    I have to tell ya tho, I’m pretty taken with my own judgment. ;)

  164. 164.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    @JMY: “He turned his back on the people who got him in office…”

    You don’t have to wait to hear it, head over to Kos and it is on the wreck list right now. Or not… ;)

    Jane Hamster’s latest on alliances:

    I’m not afraid to join cause with the libertarians if they’re right about something, as I wrote the other day — new and interesting alliances are the lifeblood of change. We have a difference of opinion over what we think the role of government should be, but I think they’re coming from an honest position.

    Grover Norquist =/= libertarian

    Phyllis Schlafly =/= libertarian

    Jane has found a new addiction.

  165. 165.

    Yutsano

    @asiangrrlMN: It’s so wrong I know, but going off the Dogma theme, is it bad that the only reason I want to see Invictus is to see Matt Damon built to hell and shirtless?

  167. 167.

    asiangrrlMN

    @Max: He will, but very eloquently. See, I would say, “SUCK IT, BITCHEZ!” which is why I’m not president.

    @Yutsano: If it’s wrong, then I don’t want you to be right.

    @SIA aka ScreamingInAtlanta: I know! It’s getting a lot of use, let me tell you. It may be time to retire it and come up with another sharpened implement.

  168. 168.

    FlipYrWhig

    @gwangung:

    a lot of people will think, “If the radicals hate it and if the Republicans hate it, it can’t be all bad.”

    Sometimes the “radicals” say that that’s their point, establishing a leftmost bound on the political spectrum. But then other times they really resent “triangulation.” It’s hard to tell the difference between disappointment-as-tactic and genuine disappointment.

  169. 169.

    Max

    Quote to bring a tear to your eye…

    Vikki Kennedy, on hand for the vote, says of her late husband, “He’s smiling.”

  170. 170.

    BR

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    I think the most likely avenue for improving the current reform plan is to get a senator (or group of senators) to attach a strong Medicare buy-in (say 50+) to a budget sometime soon. (After the president has signed the bill.) Push it through reconciliation.

    That way we get the insurance reforms, the exchange, and a foot in the door on Medicare-for-all / public option.

    I’m actually convinced that going that route will be easier since a public option is a vague term that’s easy to water down whereas Medicare is Medicare.

  171. 171.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    JSF: I have to tell ya tho, I’m pretty taken with my own judgment.  ;)

    No shit Sherlock. ;)

  172. 172.

    mr. whipple

    Is it just me or has Dkos gone way downhill lately?

    No. Yes.

    It’s been pretty much insane all over. This place has been the best, imo.

  173. 173.

    Yutsano

    @BR: Medicare is also familiar, proven, and absolutely adored by seniors. It has something like an 86% satisfaction rate. And providers may grouse about the low payouts, but the fact that Medicare sends the check with little to no complaint makes life so much easier for them. It really should have been sold like that from the beginning as opposed to the House seeing the light about that fact way late in the game.

  174. 174.

    JMY

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    I don’t think anybody would agree that this is a perfect bill, and there’s lots I don’t like about it, but there is a lot I do like about it. I think some people thought that getting health care reform would be easy. If it was it would have been done already. How is this not awesome? I’m sorry that this process hasn’t gone the way some people wanted it to, but you can’t deny how huge of an accomplishment this is.

  175. 175.

    mr. whipple

    The fact that this battle has been fought for decades – to come this close is an accomplishment in itself. Although not perfect, I think this bill will do a lot of good, and will be improved over time. The Civil Rights bill was far from perfect at first.

    Ditto.

  176. 176.

    parksideq

    Hey, can any of the wonkier Juicers explain why this is only part 1 of a 3-part cloture vote miniseries?

    ETA: My Google-fu is weak at this time of night/morning, and if I’m completely mistaken about the whole cloture thing, I’d definitely like to be set straight.

  177. 177.

    Jean

    I watched the vote count on c-span, and I am cheering. So the bill isn’t perfect. It’s pretty good, and it’s the furthest we’ve ever come to passing SOMETHING. And there’s a lot of something that’s good in it. I’ll take it for now. 0 is not acceptable. Nor is waiting for when? Forever, Olympia S.?

  178. 178.

    SIA aka ScreamingInAtlanta

    @asiangrrlMN:

    I know! It’s getting a lot of use, let me tell you. It may be time to retire it and come up with another sharpened implement.

    No, keep the pitchfork! I get a vicarious cathartic release from the image! :-D

  180. 180.

    Dee Loralei

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    We know this is a sucky bill. But it’s magnitudes less suck than the status quo.

    And I say that as an unemployed adult with a pre-existing condition. I’ve been told because of my age and with so many younger cheaper people wanting the same job I’m basically unemployable.

    Maybe with a wee bit of solid ground underneath me, I can get back on my feet. Maybe with these plans for the self-employed, I can start my own business.

    So yea, for all the suckiness in this bill it might, just might keep another 31 million people alive from treatable illnesses.

  181. 181.

    mcc

    @parksideq:

    Cloture vote #1, tonight: Cloture on the “manager’s amendment”. This is the 300-page set of patches that Reid came up with last week to get all 60 Democrats on board.

    Cloture vote #2, tuesday (?): Cloture on the “substitute amendment”. This is because there are constitutional rules about how some bills have to originate in the House. But it’s inconvenient to follow these rules so the Senate cheats by, when they want to pass a bill of the type they’re not allowed to originate, they’ll take some other unrelated bill from the House, hollow it out and pass an amendment that erases all of its text and substitutes the thing they want to pass, in this case I believe just the 2000-page health care bill Reid unveiled on Nov 18th.

    Cloture vote #3, wednesday (?): Vote on the amended “shell bill”.
    Source here. And I am very uncertain I have this correct.

  182. 182.

    JMY

    P. Krugman is far from the biggest Obama supporter, but I agree with him on this (From Bob Cesca’s blog):

    But back to Obama: the important thing to bear in mind is that this isn’t about him; and, equally important, it isn’t about you. If you’ve fallen out of love with a politician, well, so what? [emphasis is Krugman’s]

    I think this whole thing has become more about how Obama isn’t progressive/liberal enough, turned his back on the base, etc., rather than getting health care legislation passed.

  183. 183.

    TaosJohn

    The bill many of you are cheering allows your insurance company to only pay 60% of the bill. How long do you think it will take for rates to rise to the point that the only policy you can afford carries a 40% co-pay on everything? And every “reform” is covered by a loophole. Employers will be dropping health plans, too, dumping the complacent into the wonderful world of the mandate. Fix it later? Not likely in an election year, and not thereafter with a Republican Congress.

    If this bill passes, the whole political landscape changes, just not the way establishment liberals think it’s going to go. If you thought the last few months were hell, just wait.

  184. 184.

    Yutsano

    @parksideq: I thought this was round 2. The first cloture vote already happened.

    EDIT (for wifey): sorry, I’m wrong, I think they’re doing the straight (snicker) up or down vote tonight as well.

  185. 185.

    Comrade Luke

    John, are your numbers way up during this health care debate? I’m thinking not only hits but the number of comments. It seems like the number of comments on posts related to health care are WAY higher than anything I’ve ever seen here.

  186. 186.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @SIA aka Screaming In Atlanta: that vile flashy yellow thing is one of the reasons I don’t watch CNN unless there’s a compelling reason to do so. For them, it’s flashing yellow breaking news every time Wolf Blitzer farts.

  187. 187.

    comfy in nautica

    For anyone not sure exactly what this vote means/what happens next:

    “The Senate will vote on Tuesday, December 22nd at 7am to adopt the amendment and will hold another cloture vote on the Reid substitute – the Senate’s version of the health care bill. On Wednesday December 23 at 1pm, the Senate will vote to adopt the substitute and to invoke cloture on the underlining bill. A final vote on the Senate bill is scheduled for Thursday, December 24th at 7pm. It requires a simple majority.”

    Glad I was up to see it.

  188. 188.

    Stroszek

    This is the most significant contribution to social justice in America in 40 years.

    That might inspire you.
    That might depress you.

    But it should tell you that there’s little benefit to waiting patiently for the perfect opportunity.

  189. 189.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @JMY: It’s not health care reform. At best, it’s a faltering first step towards health care reform. IMNSHO, you need to set expectations very low when discussing it. That is the only way you’ll succeed with it.

    Of course, at this point it’s all so much informed speculation until we see what comes out of conference committee. But it’s my opinion that what comes out will look a lot like what went in on the Senate side.

  191. 191.

    Yutsano

    @SiubhanDuinne: I just snuck over to their website. Their big news of the day is Brittany Murphy dying. Oi. I get that she was fairly well-known, but history gets made and it barely gets mentioned.

  192. 192.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    @TaosJohn:

    I thought you were set free TJ! That’s the grand revelation or rant after going off your meds that you dropped on us the other day anyway. No more ties! No more carrying water! Life is good! Freedumb!

    You start your meds again? Good for you if you did!

  194. 194.

    Comrade Luke

    I’m listening to Christmas music on random and, for the first time this year, up pops Bing Crosby & David Bowie singing Peace on Earth/Little Drummer Boy.

    Man I love that song.

  195. 195.

    TaosJohn

    So yea, for all the suckiness in this bill it might, just might keep another 31 million people alive from treatable illnesses.

    This is such awesome nonsense, I have to keep going.

    I haven’t had insurance for years, and I’m in my 60s. I’m paying off evil debts incurred from trying to stay alive in the last decade. I’m one of the 31 million, then. DON’T DO ME ANY “FAVORS”! The decision my wife and I made about five years ago to drop our useless Blue Cross plan was not made lightly. We judged our chances of financial and physical survival to be greater if we cancelled the damn thing. It’s been very scary, but that’s America today.

    No one sitting in Washington, D.C. has any right whatsoever to tell me that what my wife and I decided is wrong, and that they know better than we do how to manage our own affairs. To tell me I have to pay money to a private corporation that I abhor and despise is an outrageous intrusion into my life, similar in emotional effect to having my home physically invaded. That’s how the rest of the country is going to take this, too.

  197. 197.

    Yutsano

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    it’s a faltering first step towards health care reform.

    The most important point right there. This is just the beginning of the massive hard work in getting true universal health care to the United States. But it’s further than we’ve come since Johnson.

  199. 199.

    gwangung

    It’s not health care reform. At best, it’s a faltering first step towards health care reform. IMNSHO, you need to set expectations very low when discussing it.

    Given the institutions and the money involved, why would anyone expect anything different???? Why would anyone expect that this would be a one-and-done effort?

  200. 200.

    Comrade Luke

    Brittany Murphy’s death has a bigger headline than the health care vote on cnn

    We’re doomed.

  202. 202.

    Yutsano

    @TaosJohn: I love the smell of neo-libertarianism late in the evening/early in the morning. You’d better be willing to waive Medicare coverage when you turn 65 or you’re the biggest hypocrite I’ve ever seen post here. And if you are, I’m gonna be awful resentful that I’m gonna be paying for your ass just because you want to prove a point to Obama.

  204. 204.

    JMY

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Well, your right in a sense because this isn’t the final step, but this was a large step. HCR could have died in the Senate and it looked that way the past week. What don’t you understand about the fact that we haven’t gotten this far ever?

    This isn’t HCR? Tell that to the many Senators and Congressmen & women who’ve worked their asses off for years to get to this point.

  205. 205.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    Repairs necessary!

    Brittany Murphy’s death has a bigger headline than the health care vote on cnn.com: We’re doomed!.

    Fix’t.

  207. 207.

    asiangrrlMN

    @Yutsano: Thank you. I was getting a leetle skeered there. Five minutes of happiness. Apparently, that was too much to ask for.

    @Stroszek: Ok, that’s sick and wrong and very funny.

    @Yutsano: Probably. Tells you what kind of sick woman I am that I snickered. But, the helicopters…are not…laughing….

  208. 208.

    Comrade Luke

    I love that the NY Times has a photo of people walking with torches next to the health care headline. It’s for another story, but still…

  210. 210.

    mcc

    You know, I’m not even gonna bother with the “it’s not perfect, but” disclaimer. After the set of changes they put in on Friday I sincerely think this is the best bill that possibly could have passed the Senate. I think it’s better than the House bill (the public option was worth spending all year fighting for, but it wasn’t worth the Stupak Amendment). I’m not actually certain at this point that the House conference is even going to improve it (it will probably fix a couple of Reid’s stupider watering-down motions, but it might also contain some backsliding just from brownian motion).

    I don’t see any possible ways to have improved this that I can seriously believe could have worked, except for things that came with their own occasionally nasty tradeoffs (and I think that this is borne out in that basically all the suggestions we’re hearing of things that should have been done different either are extremely vague, or outright impossible, like “abolish the Senate”). I think we actually did really well here. I’m impressed with Harry Reid for the first time ever.

  213. 213.

    Yutsano

    @asiangrrlMN: I let out a chortle and got stared at by my Canadian co-worker. She’s funny, she has a green card but if you mention becoming a citizen she laughs her ass off.

  215. 215.

    Yutsano

    I just realized: This thread need the Black Jimmy Carter tag. Y’know, cause I’m in such an ironical mood.

  216. 216.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    Hey JSF! Remember what you said about Net Neutrality in the other thread? Guess what paid FDL shill
    is using that to justify Jane Hamster’s alliances with the dark side?

    Home run dude, take a bow.

  217. 217.

    mcc

    Oh, and another little note which I base on practically nothing and is likely to look stupid in a few months: I think when the dust clears it’s going to turn out in retrospect that Bernie Sanders is actually a really good negotiator.

  218. 218.

    Nellcote

    PO suporters should get together with some big money people and start up a non-profit insurance company to compete in the Exchange. They could offer an alternative to whatever they find lacking in the Bill.

  221. 221.

    Dee Loralei

    @Yutsano:

    Hell, it needs a black Bill Clinton tag too, since he was the last President to attempt to tackle this issue :-P

    (Irony though is still on life suppoty like Terri Schiavo, after what the Republicans have done to it this year.)

  222. 222.

    parksideq

    @Yutsano: @mcc: Thanks for clarifying that for me. It may not be perfect, but I’ll take this bill over the unconscionable choice of doing nothing. If this all passes on schedule, I’ll have a merry Christmahanukwanzukkah indeed.

  226. 226.

    Stroszek

    @mcc:

    I wouldn’t go that far. These are the attainable changes I’d like to see brought in from the House bill:

    Replace the state exchanges with a single national exchange.
    Strengthen the incentives for employers to provide coverage.
    Raise Medicaid eligibility to 150% FPL instead of 133%.
    Higher cost-sharing standards (70% instead of 60%).
    Anti-trust exemption repeal.
    Allow undocumented immigrants to buy insurance on the exchange.

  228. 228.

    parksideq

    Oh, and someone tell Ms. Hamsher, bless her heart, to weep on Mitch McConnell’s shoulder. If she’s willing to get teabagged by the Grand Obstructionist Party, she’s as coked out as Bobby Brown, but hey, it’s her prerogative.

  229. 229.

    NR

    @JMY:

    I think this whole thing has become more about how Obama isn’t progressive/liberal enough, turned his back on the base, etc., rather than getting health care legislation passed.

    I don’t accept this characterization of the liberal opposition to Obama, nor do I accept the characterization often seen around here that these people are insane.

    The fact is, candidate Obama made a number of promises, and those promises caused a number of people on the left to embrace him. President Obama has now broken those promises, and that has caused a number of people on the left to reject him.

    What promises? Here are some examples:

    1) In July of 2007, Obama said “The first thing I do as president will be to sign the Freedom of Choice Act.” Once elected, this became a non-priority for him. In fact, through his surrogates, he has expressly indicated that it is not a priority.

    2) Many times during the campaign, Obama said “I will end Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.” Nearly a year into his term, how many soldiers have been discharged for this, and during a time of war, no less? He has not lifted a finger to end this policy.

    3) Openness. Candidate Obama promised to end bush-era secrecy. He hasn’t. He in fact has embraced the positions of the Bush Administration on executive power. Take a look.

    4) The mortgage crisis. Obama promised relief. But look at what’s happening. The Obama mortgage relief plan requires people who seek mortgage relief to give up notification or the right to contest foreclosure. Banks are now selling houses out from under people with no warning. More money for the banksters, at the expense of Main Street.

    5) Mountaintop removal – Yet more broken promises.

    So, let’s review. Candidate Obama promised major changes/improvements in 1) Abortion rights, 2) Gay rights, 3) Openness in government, 4) Mortgage relief, and 5) Environmental policy.

    He has, so far, failed to keep any of those promises.

    And on top of all that, he is now poised to sign a health care reform bill that 1) Discriminates against women, particularly poor women who might need an abortion, 2) Forces people to buy junk insurance, even though said insurance might not provide adequate coverage, and 3) Contains no public option to control costs.

    Here’s the deal: I’m not a rube. I know exactly why I voted for Obama; I know the promises that induced me to support him. I also know that he has broken those promises.

    So, while I might vote for Obama in 2012, depending on whether the Republicans run a true nutjob against him, he will not get one dime of my money, ever again. I won’t support the Democratic party any longer with money or time. Obama and the party leadership clearly do not give a damn about any of the things that I consider important, so why should I give a damn about them?

  230. 230.

    Jonathan Holbert

    In the comments for this AmericaBlog post, Joe Sudbay said, “I’m not calling it health care reform or even health insurance reform anymore. It isn’t. It’s an insurance bill…”

    I replied “…we should refer to this as ‘health insurance care’.”

  231. 231.

    NR

    @JMY:
    I don’t accept this characterization of the liberal opposition to Obama, nor do I accept the characterization often seen around here that these people are insane.

    The fact is, candidate Obama made a number of promises, and those promises caused a number of people on the left to embrace him. President Obama has now broken those promises, and that has caused a number of people on the left to reject him.

    What promises? Here are some examples:

    1) In July of 2007, Obama said “The first thing I do as president will be to sign the Freedom of Choice Act.” Once elected, this became a non-priority for him. In fact, through his surrogates, he has expressly indicated that it is not a priority.

    2) Many times during the campaign, Obama said “I will end Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.” Nearly a year into his term, how many soldiers have been discharged for this, and during a time of war, no less? He has not lifted a finger to end this policy.

    3) Openness. Candidate Obama promised to end bush-era secrecy. He hasn’t. He in fact has embraced the positions of the Bush Administration on executive power. Take a look.

    4) The mortgage crisis. Obama promised relief. But look at what’s happening. The Obama mortgage relief plan requires people who seek mortgage relief to give up notification or the right to contest foreclosure. Banks are now selling houses out from under people with no warning. More money for the banksters, at the expense of Main Street.

    5) Mountaintop removal – Yet more broken promises.

    So, let’s review. Candidate Obama promised major changes/improvements in 1) Abortion rights, 2) Gay rights, 3) Openness in government, 4) Mortgage relief, and 5) Environmental policy.

    He has, so far, failed to keep any of those promises.

    And on top of all that, he is now poised to sign a health care reform bill that 1) Discriminates against women, particularly poor women who might need an abortion, 2) Forces people to buy junk insurance, even though said insurance might not provide adequate coverage, and 3) Contains no public option to control costs.

    Here’s the deal: I’m not a rube. I know exactly why I voted for Obama; I know the promises that induced me to support him. I also know that he has broken those promises.

    So, while I might vote for Obama in 2012, depending on whether the Republicans run a true nutjob against him, he will not get one dime of my money, ever again. I won’t support the Democratic party any longer with money or time. Obama and the party leadership clearly do not give a damn about any of the things that I consider important, so why should I give a damn about them?

  232. 232.

    Yutsano

    @Dee Loralei: I coulda sworn that’s an Uncle Jimmy tune. It’s on his Best Hits album. I’m Googleless so I cannot confirm or deny, so if anyone can shed some light on this subject I’d be most grateful.

  233. 233.

    mcc

    @Nellcote: I dunno, go ask CREDO if they’re interested in trying. But that sounds really difficult. Like, unfeasibly difficult. I don’t have an idea of specific numbers but the impression I got from the discussions of Carper’s attempts to engineer nonprofit “compromises” was that the amount of seed money required for a nonprofit insurance company would just put that out of the question for anything but a government or a huge corporation.

    [i]Maybe[/i] a state could do it? If the states weren’t all broke.

    Also a government-run insurance option would be preferable to a basic nonprofit because it would be accountable via the democratic process. Nonprofits can become unaccountable or self-serving and we’re looking for something which would be a backbone of our health and economic system.

    I wonder whether people will actually sign up for the FEHBP buy-in.

  234. 234.

    ds

    I don’t see any possible ways to have improved this that I can seriously believe could have worked, except for things that came with their own occasionally nasty tradeoffs (and I think that this is borne out in that basically all the suggestions we’re hearing of things that should have been done different either are extremely vague, or outright impossible, like “abolish the Senate”). I think we actually did really well here. I’m impressed with Harry Reid for the first time ever.

    Indeed. Obama has fucked up on a lot of things, but this isn’t one of them. The bill is pretty close to the best you can get and still get 60 votes.

    And the insurance regulations, which were the key to reform, couldn’t have gotten through reconciliation, so that wasn’t a good alternative.

    The path after passage needs to be boosting the bill with whatever provisions that can pass through reconciliation. Specifically, they need to boost the subsidies and get the exchanges started before 2014. Otherwise Republicans will be able to demagogue “what health care reform?” and “you’re forcing people to buy insurance they can’t afford!”

    But anyway, thank God. The bill failing would be disastrous from a policy perspective and a political perspective. Now let’s just pray that Byrd doesn’t croak and Lieberman doesn’t decide to backstab us by Thursday.

  235. 235.

    Yutsano

    @asiangrrlMN: If that was the first time I’d ever said that to you I’d agree. However one night your umm frustration was rather high so I suggested you make that your theme for the night. You never did tell me how that resolved anyway.

  236. 236.

    Yutsano

    @ds:

    Now let’s just pray that Byrd doesn’t croak and Lieberman doesn’t decide to backstab us by Thursday.

    West Virginia has a reliable Democratic governor. And Lieberman has to know he’s in for a pound now because no Republican is gonna let him forget this vote evah.

  237. 237.

    The Raven

    @TaosJohn: “The bill many of you are cheering allows your insurance company to only pay 60% of the bill.”

    That isn’t exactly the case; it allows a 40% profit on premiums. I’m sure the magic of the market will keep prices low.

    Croak!

  238. 238.

    FlipYrWhig

    @DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal):

    Why does Kos allow his blog to be serviced by paid lobbyists like that? That’s what those screamy HCR diaries are: FDL lobbying the Kos crowd.

    Hey, remember when it was vitally important to elect Stephanie Herseth? I love how that guy gets to pretend he’s an uncompromising, principled paragon.

  239. 239.

    Dee Loralei

    @Yutsano:

    Wiki (yea, I know, I went there, OY) says you are right about Jimmy Buffet and I was wrong. It said it was published by his psuedonym Marvin Gardens. So, you’ve got that going for you.

    No telling what song I was thinking of.

  240. 240.

    Stroszek

    @The Raven:

    Where are you getting that number?

    @FlipYrWhig:

    As far as I can tell, kos’ own posts these days are just copy/paste jobs of something Jane e-mailed him. His back-and-forth with Nate Silver was the first time he’s said something original in months.

  243. 243.

    Yutsano

    @Dee Loralei:

    No telling what song I was thinking of.

    You definitely have my curiosity peaked however. I might have to research this in the morning as I’m too tired tonight and have zero energy to pursue this when I get home.

  245. 245.

    Yutsano

    @freelancer (itouch):

    I just hope AWS is doing alright.

    He was posting about his new kitteh earlier. I honestly think she is going to save his life. He’s definitely taken in by her however.

  246. 246.

    mcc

    @Stroszek: Ah, this is a good post.

    I’m undecided on whether the national exchange would be superior to the local exchanges. I’ve seen people arguing both for and against the national exchange on strongly progressive terms. I think on the balance as a random consumer in California I’m personally more comfortable without it. I think if we really needed a national exchange we’ll realize that pretty quickly.

    The antitrust exemption I would really really like to see in the final bill. I think that’s the biggest thing I’ll be hoping for in the House version. (Stronger employer mandates like the House bill has would be nice but that might (?) create a passage risk so I’m not sure whether I expect them to fix that. The other stuff seems kinda like gravy.) I’m not saying there’s no improvements I want to see in the conference stage, just that things are so messy at this point I’m not really certain we’re gong to see those improvements made without something else getting worse in the process elsewhere at the same time. Maybe we’ll see a better bill come out of conference– we can hope– but I don’t feel confident of it.

    Do you know if a version of the “medical loss” cap is in the House bill already?

  249. 249.

    Dee Loralei

    @freelancer (itouch):

    AWS got a new kitty Saturday. ( I’m a lurker, I know these things.) Maybe he’s just snuggling up with a cat and a good book. Or even a good movie.

    Cats are great supporters of the Liberal Arts, at least I think so from my readings of the BOB. ( Though on his list, I’m not sure movies or literature fall under the rubrik.

  252. 252.

    Yutsano

    @Dee Loralei:

    Cats are great supporters of the Liberal Arts, at least I think so from my readings of the BOB.

    I would be very cautious there. BoB goes from batshit insane to true incoherence, sometimes within the context of the same post. It’s rather disturbing.

  255. 255.

    Sly

    @J. Michael Neal:

    From Jim Webb, though, this boils down to, “OMG, the president expected the legislature to actually legislate!”

    Where do you think support for the Line Item Veto comes from? Legislators who don’t want to actually do their job, a trait which is practically required for public office these days.

  257. 257.

    freelancer (itouch)

    @Dee Loralei:

    No, I know. His Smudge is adorable. And he seems pretty up about her. I just know being single during the darker holiday months can make it even more brutal. Currently going through my own throes os Seasonal Affective Disorder, I have my good days and my scorched earth days. I’m glad he’s got an outlet and that he’s got some sense of a positive outlook. As Sully is prone to say in his more emo posts:

    Know Hope.

    freelancer +5

  260. 260.

    NR

    Expect insurance company stocks to go up massively tomorrow.

    They won. They got everything they wanted.

    And it was Democrats who gave it to them.

  261. 261.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    @FlipYrWhig:

    I don’t know other than maybe it drives hits and traffic for his site and he likes that. The place is basically a mosh pit of stupid. I go there just like I do with places like Redstate, to see what the latest outrage is. The Wreck list there is so abused that it is next to worthless for any story of value.

    There are ‘regulars’ there like Slink who post a diary it is slammed with recs so fast that it’s almost like they are emailing everyone to help her get it on the Wreck list so it is noticed.

    Funny how that works, eh?

  262. 262.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    @NR:

    Well get out there and pick some stocks early so you can ride the wave to riches.

    Lucky you!

  264. 264.

    Stroszek

    @DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal):

    I don’t know if the FDL’ers get people on other sites to rec them, but I have noticed that they spam their own comments section after they post a diary. They do this because a diary with 6 comments on the top of the roll is more likely to draw attention than a diary with nothing but a tip jar. That kind of consultant-derived psychological crap doesn’t sit well with me, though it is funny to see slink frantically reply to herself when her diaries bomb.

  265. 265.

    ds

    Expect insurance company stocks to go up massively tomorrow.
    They won. They got everything they wanted.
    And it was Democrats who gave it to them.

    Yeah that’s why they’ve been lobbying against the bill for months and are funneling money into a right-wing effort to get health care reform declared unconstitutional.

    It’s true that reform doesn’t hurt their bottom line. But any change to the status quo is risky for them, because they’re currently operating the fattest scam known to mankind. Now at least they’ll be forced to take on risky patients, provide a guaranteed minimum level of benefits, and have some cap on their profit margins.

    If the bill failed, insurance executives would correctly conclude that Congress would never work up the will to pass any serious reform, and they’d respond by jacking up rates. If they can get away with murder by spreadsheet in a time of Democratic dominance in Washington, they can do whatever the hell they want and never face consequences. Why not go nuts?

    I’m okay with this “insurance industry bailout.”

    Food stamps are a food industry bailout.
    Section 8 vouchers are a real estate industry bailout.
    Federal education aid is a teacher’s union bailout.

  266. 266.

    NR

    @ds:

    Yeah that’s why they’ve been lobbying against the bill for months

    And by lobbying against the bill for months, they succeeded in gutting it of any real reform and turning it into exactly what they wanted.

    Again: They won.

    Watch their stock prices tomorrow if you don’t believe me.

  267. 267.

    ds

    Again: They won.

    They won that battle months ago, dear.

    It was already settled that reform wasn’t going to attempt to punish insurers, and they’d stay fat and happy. It’s ugly as hell, but that’s how Washington works when corporations finance our elections.

    The purpose of health care reform isn’t to punish the insurance industry, although they certainly deserve it. It’s to make sure that sick people get the medical care they need.

    This bill will vastly reduce the number of deaths in this country to treatable illnesses due to lack of care. That makes it a success.

    Everything else is peripheral.

  269. 269.

    NR

    @ds:

    The purpose of health care reform isn’t to punish the insurance industry, although they certainly deserve it. It’s to make sure that sick people get the medical care they need.

    Well, this bill utterly fails in that regard. It doesn’t ban rescissions. It doesn’t prevent the insurance companies from simply denying your claims. Hell, under this bill, you will be required by law to keep giving money to an insurance company even as you slowly die because they won’t pay for the medical treatment you need.

    Now that’s change we can believe in.

  270. 270.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    @Stroszek:

    Yeah, Slink is busier than a one-legged woman trying to stomp out a forest fire right now. She actually said this in her latest diary (as a comment) defending Hamster:

    I feel that this bill, if passed, would cost the Democratic Party their seats and cripple President Obama’s agenda.

    She cares about Obama’s agenda! She’s concerned!! Well isn’t that special.

  271. 271.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Don’t know if anyone is still around, but has anybody seen Jay in Oregon lately? I think of him and hope he’s doing better after going through a rough patch for a few months. There are a lot of people, Juicers and otherwise, who are going to be very glad to see the back end of 2009.

  272. 272.

    ds

    It doesn’t ban rescissions. It doesn’t prevent the insurance companies from simply denying your claims.

    False on both counts.

    It does ban rescission.

    It implements a minimum benefits package of services that are guaranteed.

    And it creates a process where you can appeal any claims denial to a medical panel that is independent of the insurance company.

  273. 273.

    Calming Influence

    I now realize I should have worded my last comment differently. In truth, I have no idea what I’m going to write from one moment to the next.

    there’s a 50/50 chance I’ll say something nice about John.

    You roll the dice, you take your chances.

  274. 274.

    NR

    @ds:

    It does ban rescission.

    Wrong. It does not ban rescission. It bans rescission except in the case of fraud. So the insurance company will just claim fraud, you will have to go to court to fight the decision, and the entire process will take years to resolve, during which time you will be going without potentially critical medical care. I hope you manage to survive that long.

    The fact is, the insurance companies already cite fraud as the #1 reason behind rescissions, so this bill changes nothing in that regard.

    Expect them to handle claim denials the same way.

  275. 275.

    The Raven

    @ds: “This bill will vastly reduce the number of deaths in this country to treatable illnesses due to lack of care. ”

    I would prefer that that number be zero. The bill…some people will be winners, some losers. Probably more medical winners than losers, at least initially, but also more financial losers. But the insurance companies, they are sure winners.

    @stroszek: “Where are you getting that number?” (In response to my remark citing the 60% actuarial value as equivalent to a 40% profit.) I was wrong and TJ was right. Consumer Reports. Congressional Research Service. FDL. The 60% is in fact an improvement over current unregulated practice; one study in California found plans with AVs as low as 32%.

  276. 276.

    Calming Influence

    O.K., so I’m fond of the big lug. But I no more take his word as gospel than I do Jane Hamsher’s.

    Maybe if john did something cool with his hair…

  277. 277.

    ds

    Wrong. It does not ban rescission. It bans rescission except in the case of fraud. So the insurance company will just claim fraud, you will have to go to court to fight the decision, and the entire process will take years to resolve, during which time you will be going without potentially critical medical care. I hope you manage to survive that long.
    The fact is, the insurance companies already cite fraud as the #1 reason behind rescissions, so this bill changes nothing in that regard.

    When the insurance companies claim fraud, what they’re claiming is that the person lied about their medical history on the insurance form, or intentionally left something out, in order to appear to be insurable.

    A lot of people do in fact do commit that type of fraud, because they’re desperate to get care and they can’t afford it, and no insurance company will cover them if they tell the truth. That’s why reform is so badly needed.

    Under reform, insurance companies won’t be able to use medical history, age, and demographic characteristics as a criteria for coverage.

    You could be a 50-something with cancer and heart disease and they’d still have to sell you a policy at a rate fixed for your age group.

    So for them to continue to claim fraud, they’d have to allege that the subscriber has committed some other sort of lie on the insurance form or in their claims. Like putting down a fake social security number, or pretending to be another person. That’s an entirely different situation.

  282. 282.

    NR

    @ds: Sorry, but you’re wrong. Here is what the bill actually says on the subject:

    ‘SEC. 2712. PROHIBITION ON RESCISSIONS.

    ‘A group health plan and a health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage shall not rescind such plan or coverage with respect to an enrollee once the enrollee is covered under such plan or coverage involved, except that this section shall not apply to a covered individual who has performed an act or practice that constitutes fraud or makes an intentional misrepresentation of material fact as prohibited by the terms of the plan or coverage. Such plan or coverage may not be cancelled except with prior notice to the enrollee, and only as permitted under section 2702(c) or 2742(b).

    I’ve bolded the important part. “As prohibited by the terms of the plan or coverage” means that the insurance companies get to decide what constitutes a “misrepresentation of material fact.” So, again, they can easily claim fraud (or “misrepresentation”), and you’ll be left fighting them in court for years while you slowly die from lack of medical care.

    Again, this is change we can believe in.

  283. 283.

    ds

    The bill has a lot of flaws, but yeah, it does require insurance companies to cover sick people.

    And I’m not naive. The insurance companies will exploit any loophole they possibly can.

    But this meme from the left that “regulations don’t work” is absolutely insane.

    We live in a world where we can drive in safe cars along safe roads, breathing relatively clean air, eating relatively safe food all thanks to hard-fought progressive regulations that conservatives opposed every step of the way.

    Regulations improve almost every aspect of our lives. Repealing the regulations on the banking sector almost sent the world into a Great Depression.

    Regulations work. We can use them to fix the health care sector.

  284. 284.

    mcc

    They won that battle months ago, dear.

    Or in another sense they won that battle 15 years ago, when they defeated Clinton’s health care bill in a way that established clearly that any health care reform that was going to pass would have to supplement rather than supplant the existing system.

    (Which remember even the public option plan fits that description– remember even with the house bill that had a public option only about 2% of the nonelderly population was ever projected to be on it, and most of those people probably wouldn’t have been insured otherwise; and something like 70% of the nonelderly population wouldn’t have been effected at all because they’re on large-group plans via their employer which wouldn’t have competed with the public option. Even the most ambitious plans to roll back the notion of commerical health care right now just tweak the health care system around the edges with hopes of expanding the hole later.)

  285. 285.

    ds

    I’ve bolded the important part. “As prohibited by the terms of the plan or coverage” means that the insurance companies get to decide what constitutes a “misrepresentation of material fact.” So, again, they can easily claim fraud (or “misrepresentation”), and you’ll be left fighting them in court for years while you slowly die from lack of medical care.

    The “terms of the plan or coverage” does not include medical history.

    They’d have to draw up a case that you put up a fake SS number, or that you’re not really you.

    The bad sort of rescission, where people are dropped on the basis that you had a pre-existing condition that you didn’t tell the insurance company about, will be eliminated.

  286. 286.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    @Thoroughly Pizzled:

    I am still reading Slink’s comments in her latest disastrous diary attempting to cover for Hamster and she is saying that their teaming up with FreedomWorks and Dick Armey is a good thing because they share the same goals in regards to HCR.

    I can agree with hooking up with the opposition like Redstate, Markos and others did a few years ago regarding Net Neutrality, there is no problem understanding why that is. But to align yourself with people like FreedomWorks?! I take it that she now believes that FreedomWorks is a true grassroots organization?

    Like a poster there asked, what’s next? Hamster allies herself with Orly Taitz?

    Her argument that both sides want the bill to die for the same reasons is total hogwash. FDL and the like claim that they want it dead because they say it is a bad bill and they want to quit now and try another time to get a better bill. Fine and all of that but FreedomWorks and the Teabaggers want nothing at all. No HCR, none. Period, end of story. Maybe Slink isn’t telling us everything in regards to Hamster and her real desires regarding HCR?

    I think this is more of a the enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of an alliance.

  287. 287.

    NR

    @ds: Um, nothing you just said contradicts the points I’ve been making, so I’ll just leave it at this:

    Fact: The bill does not ban rescissions.

    Fact: The bill does not prevent the insurance companies from denying your claims.

    Fact: The bill does require you by law to give money to a private corporation, even as you slowly die because that corporation will not pay for your medical care.

    Obama and the Dems are going to get a richly-deserved ass-kicking in the 2010 and 2012 elections when these facts sink in with the general public. If you want to hold hands and sing Kumbaya until then, well, there’s nothing I can do to stop you.

  288. 288.

    ds

    The bill does not ban rescissions in cases where people commit fraud, keeping in that having a preexisting condition can no longer be considered fraud. I’m cool with that.

    The bill does not prevent insurance companies from denying claims, but it vastly increases in the number of guaranteed services and creates an appeals process for claims denials. I’m cool with that.

    The bill contains a mandate to buy insurance if you’re ineligible for a public program, but the vast majority of uninsured are either young people who stupidly think they’re invincible or people who desperately wish they could afford or be eligible for insurance, and don’t give a shit about whether it’s public or private insurance. They will now all be brought into the system, either through Medicaid or subsidized private insurance. I’m cool with that.

    This is a vast improvement over the status quo. I’m sorry you can’t see that.

  290. 290.

    Brachiator

    @NR:

    Obama and the Dems are going to get a richly-deserved ass-kicking in the 2010 and 2012 elections when these facts sink in with the general public.

    If what you say about the bill is true, then the Republicans can ride to the rescue by eliminating the mandate and restoring the status quo.

    Or so-called progressives can ride to the rescue and help fix the flaws in the health care reform bill. Or they can continue to do nothing but whine about being ignored.

  291. 291.

    ds

    In your mythical world of no rescission and no claims denials, people would be able to freely commit outright fraud and receive medically unnecessary services with no restrictions.

    No country in the world has a health care system that allows that. Neither should we.

    The key is to curb known insurance company abuses. Not to open things up to the point where individuals can run scams and face no repercussions.

  292. 292.

    ds

    Medicare and Medicaid deny claims. They also kick people off if they signed up for the programs fraudulently.

  293. 293.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    I think that Slinkerwink’s response to Senator Franken’s HCR diary at Kos tells me how much she really wants to work with Democrats in office regarding HCR:

    I’m not buying the shit you’re trying to peddle here.

    When you are being paid to represent a political cause and you want politicians in your party to listen to you then this is a great way to get your message across, right?

    Nucking futz.

  294. 294.

    The Raven

    @Brachiator: “Or so-called progressives can ride to the rescue and help fix the flaws in the health care reform bill.”

    You seem to have the peculiar idea that this is possible. We’ve been shut out, or haven’t you noticed?

  295. 295.

    ds

    You seem to have the peculiar idea that this is possible. We’ve been shut out, or haven’t you noticed

    This bill had to get 60 votes. Progressives weren’t shut out. They just didn’t have the votes to force their will.

    There are a lot of tweaks, including a Medicare buy-in or even a public option that could probably be written in a way so as to pass muster under reconciliation, and thus be passed just as part of the annual budget and not be subject to a filibuster.

  296. 296.

    The Raven

    @ds: that was what we were told at the beginning of this process. In the end, even the Senators farthest to the left–the whole handful–are voting for cloture on this toxic giveaway to the insurance companies. We can’t even hold the tiny minority of Senators most sympathetic to our cause. We will continue to work in the House, of course, but it’s clear that the conservative Lords, er, Senators intend to see their will done and it will be hard to prevent that, even in reconciliation and in the annual budget. I suppose we are to take the blame for not working hard enough to fix it, after “moderates” broke it. Sorry, guys. We know who caved, and so does the public.

  297. 297.

    Karen

    Hate Obama all you want. Say he’s a tool and I’m not thrilled with everything he’s done or hasn’t done myself. But if that’s the case Obama haters, then you better hate the Democrats too. They all have their agendas and with a few exceptions, have their souls bought by insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. ALL do. So bitch about Obama’s gimme to the insurance companies but understand they had to have enough votes to pass this.

    Do you really think a public option bill with abortion rights was going to pass? What kind of pressure do you think the Democrats were going to resist from the people who bought them? I find it interesting that the ones who had the balls to say something are, except for Senator Feingold, juniors. Then comes Election Year and their Democratic opponents and Republican opponents are slamming them several hours a day on TV and radio, not to mention the Chamber of Commerce and all those corporations who hide their purpose and use friendly names like the KeepWorking group. If their campaign gets offered an influx of cash from these very same corporations, perhaps they won’t be as idealistic.

    I’m not excusing anyone. I’m just a pragmatist who has learned that half a loaf is a start and it’s better than starving to death because it’s only a half a loaf.

  298. 298.

    ds

    Voting no on the bill wouldn’t have led to a better deal. It probably would have led to no deal at all. 1994 all over again, with all the horrible political consequences.

    Liberals inherently don’t have leverage on this issue, because they actually really care about the sick and the uninsured. Conservatives don’t give a shit, and moderates are prepared to look the other way out of political expediency. Everyone knows this. Liberals can’t bluff their way to victory.

    Read Digby on this. Asking progressives to risk sinking health care for millions of Americans in order to increase their bargaining position just isn’t going to work. It’s health care.

    This is an ugly deal that’s way too industry-friendly, but if it fails we’ll be coming up an even uglier deal 20 years from now. Failure doesn’t breed ambition. It just causes reformers to trim their sails and desperately concoct compromises in order to get something, anything that can pass, to help the uninsured.

    That’s why Clinton’s reform effort was much more conservative than Truman’s. That’s why Obama’s effort is more conservative than Clinton’s.

    That’s just the way things go. Success breeds success. Failure breeds failure. Worse does not lead to better. We desperately need a success on this front, even if it doesn’t feel like much of a success at the time.

    Listen to what progressive senators like Feingold and Sanders are saying on this. They’re neither stupid nor sellouts, but they still want this bill to pass.

  300. 300.

    NovShmozKaPop

    This bill isn’t what I’d hoped but I say pass it, we can always come back and make it better, and it certainly doesn’t preclude going back with more stuff having to do with public money (i.e. public option) and settling it in reconciliation.

    Also, it can’t be all bad considering this: http://tinyurl.com/ya2y3dk

  301. 301.

    ds

    It is very doubtful this will be reversed.
    I rather doubt that we have an honest election next year. People banking on anything approaching 1994 are going to be severely disappointed. Why are they so brazen? Why do they put forward a bill no one wants? Why do they not fear the electorate?
    It is because they believe that they can steal the election. Odds are that they can, if you ask me.
    Welcome to the USSA, and not a shot fired either.
    How can we be so easily undone is what I want to know.
    People are weak. This seems to be where “democracies” head. We have been keeping this at bay for decades.
    They seem to have finally won.
    I really have no faith in the nation anymore. What was in our national fiber that made us exceptional and great has all but bled out of us.
    I doubt we ever recover from the Obama years. They are worse than the New Deal years. He has done more damage to us in less than a year than FDR did in al his years. There was still something to bring back back then. still factories, still a national character.
    We were not slaves. Our “elites: did not hate the nation, did not hate the very foundations of our civilization, our posterity and our morality.
    How strange that we would be so easily destroyed after all our generations of struggle.

    The only feeling I had reading this comment was pure, non-cynical, unadulterated joy.

    Yes, Obama is damaging the country just like FDR!

  304. 304.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    @ds:

    What’s sad is that my first thought was to ask you if that was written by a wingnut, teabagger or Jane Hamsher of the left. It’s pretty sad when you can’t tell the difference.

  305. 305.

    Stroszek

    @NR:

    And the preexisting condition clause clearly prohibits medical history from being one of those factors. Honestly, if you’re just going to make shit up, try a little harder.

  307. 307.

    Jack

    @ds:

    If by “cover” you mean sell them an insurance plan, sure.

    If by cover, though, you mean what offer them a plan worth having, then, no.

    Big fat no.

    And that’s the problem.

    One group of liberals has a whole lot of faith that insurance corporations will become good faith actors because of a law the insurance (and pharma) companies helped craft. They also believe that the same legislators and politicians who worked with the insurance companies to craft this terrible law will revisit the issue and suddenly make it harder for insurance companies to operate as they’ve been doing all along.

    The other group comes to this with doubt about those articles of faith, and a refusal to accept the lies of those in power.

  308. 308.

    Xenos

    @ds: While I have always been disgusted by righties organizing their priorities around their fantasies of what would upset ‘the left’, the best indication I can find that this bill is worthwhile after all is that RedState, Malkin, et al are having a cow about it.

    Once their base gets wed to a system where they get worthwhile benefits, it is over for them. Neo-colonialism will never sell broadly again, free market fundamentalism is a laughingstock, and there are only so many pro-lifers with deep pockets willing to fund political movements.

    It might be a good idea to arrange secret service protection for all 60 Democratic senators, though.

  309. 309.

    Jack

    Liz Fowler, who was central to Medicare Part D (hmmmmm), is the senior aide for Max Baucus.

    She is the author of the Baucus plan.

    It is Baucus’ plan which will likely emerge as the centerpiece amendment, since as Senator Conrad noted, the much vaunted 60 votes vanish if it’s changed.

    Liz Fowler, WellPoint vice president.

  312. 312.

    Stroszek

    @Jack:

    The fact Baucus’ senior aide ran his initial chairman’s mark-up through her PDF converter doesn’t literally mean she came up with the ideas behind the bill and/or wrote the legislative language. The mechanisms at the heart of the bill have been flying around think tanks for over a decade and have been common to every bill that’s been on the table. And beyond co-ops, the distinguishing feature of the Baucus bill was a set of relatively noncontroversial cost-cutting programs and a funding mechanism (the excise tax) that AHIP opposes. Still, after Baucus presented his chairman’s mark-up, it was converted to legislative language by Senate lawyers. The bill was then rewritten again under the guidance of Reid and has been further amended with the input of dozens of other senators.

  313. 313.

    Jack

    @Stroszek:

    You folks will rationalize anything.

    Wile was right. It’s about everyone having something called “coverage,” and fuck all to everything else.

  314. 314.

    kay

    @Stroszek:

    Jack’s been gleefully spreading misinformation and conjecture about this bill for days.
    People who actually deal with the uninsured in any practical manner are going to have to work very hard to counteract this political campaign they’re running.
    I’m not clear on what the point is, but there’s an objective here somewhere, a lofty goal that makes completely discrediting themselves worthwhile. That there might be collateral damage (actual people) is not a concern. This is a crusade.

  315. 315.

    Aspasia

    John has the wrong generation of geezers in his post–my parents watched Lawrence Welk, and I’m a geezer myself (although younger than McCain, granted). Geezers of my generation dream of pot smoke, and the Doors, and worry-free sex, and protesting the war and . . .

    On second thought, I don’t suppose any people with memories like that have made it into the U. S. Senate.

  317. 317.

    Davis X. Machina

    There are two more chances for the Worst Politician Ever to save us from the Worst Bill Ever.

    Save us, Obi Joementum. You’re our only hope.

  318. 318.

    Jack

    @kay:

    Please.

    Just because I’m not willing to toss away Roe v. Wade, and then fellate AETNA so that some people might get to buy crap insurance per fiat, doesn’t mean I have different goals from you.

    I just think that the methods in which you have faith will lead you and a lot of people into the wilderness of disappointment.

    I have no glee that Baucus’ WellPoint staffer gave insurance companies a giant lock on money and power.

    Quite the opposite.

    I just don’t have your clownish, silly and unreasonable faith in bad actors.

  319. 319.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    @kay:

    I noticed that too. I wonder if he will be playing here next month…lol

    Aspasia, John did note that the average age in the senate is 132 years old so their being Lawrence Welk viewers is not wild conjecture on his part. ;)

    @Davis X. Machina:

    Joementum is your only hope? Yer fucked d00d. ;)

  320. 320.

    gwangung

    Fact: The bill does not ban rescissions.

    How would you word a law that would ban recissions in cases of outright willful fraud, but not in cases of willful fraud?

  322. 322.

    kay

    @Jack:

    I don’t even mind the health care bill misinformation. That’s fair game in any political campaign, and that’s what you’re running.
    I do mind the detainee grandstanding. I mind that they are regularly included on a list of grievances, by people who don’t follow that issue and are using those individuals to make a political point.
    They have great defense counsel, who have been plugging away for years. They’ve been winning some rounds lately. Spare the detainees the political posturing. They’re not an item on a list. They’re individual prisoners, with individual names and stories. Get them off your waving sign.

  323. 323.

    Mary

    @DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal): I am starting to think that Jane took a lot of money from FreedomWorks or the like. It would perfectly explain why she is fiercely lobbying on their behalf. I asked her on her “Welcome Kossaks” thread. She doesn’t deny. She says she’ll take money from anybody.

  324. 324.

    Jack

    @kay:

    You have been consistently shown to be wrong about each and every one of your assertions.

    I linked in the actual text, and you still insist that A is B, because you believe.

    Not because you’re looking at the facts.

  325. 325.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    @Jack:

    Umm, I never said it was a game to you, did I? I was thinking more along the lines of performance art where we get these people who drift in here with their cause or outrage du jour, put on their show/act and once that issue is resolved they end their act, pull up their tent stakes and take off, never to be seen again around these parts.

    That help? :)

    @Mary:

    That she would pair up with FreedomWorks/Dick Armey, Grover Norquist and Phyllis Schlafly for anything tells me that Jane Hamsher would be willing to make a pact with the devil to achieve her goals.

    That her followers find no problem with this is really disturbing. I have a feeling this goes back to her support of Hillary and Obama winning, there are a lot of bitter Hillary supporters at FDL (no shit!) and right now that makes more sense to me than anything else.

  326. 326.

    Jon

    @Dee Loralei: I couldn’t be more late with this, but I just wanted to suggest you get Assassin’s Creed 2 for that 19 y/o. AC2 is about an..well..assassin, in Renaissance Italy in the 1400’s and Dragon Age is more a Lord of the Rings/Dungeons and Dragons, slower moving type game. Good luck with your choice!

  328. 328.

    kay

    @Jack:

    Whatever. I’m not taking people seriously who object to a provision for fraud. Or consider smoking a pre-existing condition.
    What did you think the public option was going to be like?
    It’s an insurance contract. Have you never read one? It was going to have a provision for fraud. Unless the public option insurance plan you were happily proposing as a mandate was going to be flat broke in 5 years, it was going to have an exception for fraud, Jack. No one is going to pay a fraudulent claim, nor should they. It wouldn’t be fair to the honest policy holders.
    Campaign away. But don’t pull language out and spin it so it looks devious. That’s deceptive.

  329. 329.

    FlipYrWhig

    Why do people say that the insurance people will buy from the mandates will be “crap”? It’s very important to the case that the bill is a tremendous disaster for the insurance itself to be “crap.” So, what’s crap about it? Pointing to actual features of the bill, I mean, or actual features of the insurance policies informed people think will be offered after the bill becomes law.

  330. 330.

    sparky

    @kay: really? what rounds would those be? you mean the ones where the DC circuit said yes you should be released but the US doesn’t have to release you?

    i think it’s great that some of them have actually been released, but that’s not the only relevant metric here unless we have become nothing but an empire with a fake law coating.

    what is unfortunate here is that anyone who disagrees with corporate orthodoxy is assumed to be either a loony or in the pay of the right. tisn’t so, but you believe what you want.

  331. 331.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    @Mary:

    I have a feeling that we are both right…lol!

    Hey! you got bitterness and anger in my fame and money!

    So? You got fame and money in my bitterness and anger!

    Hey! Lets put those ingredients together and we have Jane Hamsher!

    ;)

  333. 333.

    Don

    The decision my wife and I made about five years ago to drop our useless Blue Cross plan was not made lightly. We judged our chances of financial and physical survival to be greater if we cancelled the damn thing. It’s been very scary, but that’s America today. No one sitting in Washington, D.C. has any right whatsoever to tell me that what my wife and I decided is wrong, and that they know better than we do how to manage our own affairs.

    Except they’re not only your affairs. The existing health care system currently has a shit-ton of money built into its prices to offset care for the indigent. Ie, you and your wife if you roll into the emergency room with a burst appendix or a gunshot wound you got while arguing over a parking place. Everyone whose insurance picks up the cost of any care in a hospital pays for the decisions of those who choose to roll the dice.

    I realize that’s a little too “it takes a village” for a lot of people, but in a world full of indirect costs that are being ignored health care is a big example. I’d rather that we did this in taxes rather than these mandates, but the world is what it is and clearly this is going to have to be incremental change. But let’s not pretend that any sort of universale coverage, whether it be single payer or insurance mandates, wasn’t going to cost us all money.

  334. 334.

    kay

    @sparky:

    I didn’t say you were a “loony” or “on the pay of the right”.

    I think you’re using these individuals to fight a broad ideological battle.

    I think it is incredible (and telling) that you are dismissing as unimportant the fact that some of the detainees have been released. While it may be unimportant and irrelevant to your campaign, I think I can assure you it means a hell of a lot to those individuals. Not that they matter. It’s the principle!

    Like they give a rat’s ass about that. You can’t shanghai them into your crusade. They want a hearing and a determination. That’s it. They’re simply not interested in your personal anguish.

  335. 335.

    FlipYrWhig

    @sparky:

    what is unfortunate here is that anyone who disagrees with corporate orthodoxy

    Man, the martyrdom… What’s more irritating is being told that supporting the bill allies a person with “corporate orthodoxy,” especially when “corporate orthodoxy” is a nebulous yet all-encompassing bogeyman that everyone wants to _oppose_ in spirit but no one seems to know how to _fight_ tangibly.

  336. 336.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    @Mary:

    Now that is funny! :)

    I am still reading Slink’s trainwreck diary defending their unholy alliance with FreedomWorks and I have checked back on the comments of some of the regulars at Kos who are supporting her. Interesting to note is that every single one of them are Hillary supporters (so far).

    Isn’t that special?

    Funny thing is that diary has over 500 posts yet Slink only has 61 tips in her tip jar. I think even some of her supporters are not happy with this newfound common ground Jane has with the Teabaggers since they say that they have donated to FDL to help pay Slink and now they are refusing to donate another cent.

    Bullet meet foot.

  337. 337.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Jack:

    I linked in the actual text, and you still insist that A is B, because you believe.

    I think this is an important point, Jack, and perhaps the dividing line between the factions on the left, on this and other stuff like the Iraq war, for instance.

    I’m not a Hamsherite, or part of the Kos community. I’m not even particularly enamored of the Digster, honestly. I don’t think this think breaks down between wonks and activists. I think it breaks down between those, like me, that are deeply, deeply cynical and those that are riding the hopeychangey express.

    I don’t think it gets any more complicated than that.

    At this point, IMO, we’ve lost. I suppose there’s the chance the House will choke on the Senate bill they’ll be forced to accept but otherwise, what we got is what we’re getting and there’s really no sense in further antagonizing those that are a little more optimistic.

  338. 338.

    Chuck

    @Yutsano:

    You’d better be willing to waive Medicare coverage when you turn 65 or you’re the biggest hypocrite I’ve ever seen post here.

    How’s that follow? He pays taxes for Medicare, and in return, Medicare doesn’t run a department staffed full-time with people dedicated to trumping up reasons for *denying* him medical care when he needs it. He even mentioned the insurance company he dropped: BCBS. I wouldn’t pay those scumbags a dime either.

  339. 339.

    kay

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Oh, baloney. “I linked to the actual text!”

    He’s spinning the “actual text”. It’s not a new tactic.

    Mcjoan on Kos is interpreting the language in the “actual text” that allows higher premiums for smokers as a violation of the ban on refusal for pre-existing conditions, which is just ridiculous, but she’s “linking to the actual text!”

    What did you think the public option insurance plan was going to look like, or the regulations thereof? Like this.

  342. 342.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    I think it breaks down between those, like me, that are deeply, deeply cynical and those that are riding the hopeychangey express.

    I think it breaks down between those who are deeply, deeply cynical and want to wallow in it, and those who are deeply, deeply cynical yet still encouraged that something moved vaguely in a righteous direction for once. We both expect fuckups, but some of us don’t _crave_ fuckups as proof of our dark-‘n’-cynical wisdom.

  343. 343.

    asiangrrlMN

    @FlipYrWhig: Gotta agree here. I am deeply deeply cynical and not at all happy with the way Washington works. I think it sucks rocks that because lefty liberals are willing to be the adults and actually give a damn about people, we’re expected to eat shit all the time. It makes me mad as hell that a few asshats like Lieberman and Nelson (not to mention the entire GOP) have so much influence on the process. A few days ago, I wanted to walk away from the sausage-making process in disgust because I felt so fucking useless. I would continue to vote, but that was it. Why follow the process when it’s all theatre and posturing?

    Besides, as I told a friend, no one is courting my vote. I am in no desired demographic. And, unless Obama does something so egregious that I can’t support him any longer (and I can’t even think what that would be), I will vote for him in 2012.

    And yet, the more I read about this reform, the more I realized that I wanted it to pass. Now, we’re reaching a point where if they keep paring away at it, I may change my mind, but as many have pointed out, the hardest step is getting a law in place. I am not hopeychangey in thinking that it will be made better in a flash, but I truly think in this case that something is better than nothing.

  344. 344.

    Jack

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    This.

    It’s a matter of temperament, not ideology.

    We share ideology, for the most part.

    Some of us are believers, some of us are doubters.

    Some of us want the jerks in the Senate to have angels of their better natures, want to believe that corporations can be trusted to use the law to the maximum benefit of all.

    Some of us prefer the facts.

  345. 345.

    Karen

    PUMAs!

    Prove to me that President Hillary Clinton would be more progressive and on the left and doing everything you accuse Obama of not doing!

    Prove it to me.

    Show me.

    By the way, you know the C Street Family? She goes to those prayer breakfasts. She wanted the war in Iraq.

    Clinton is not a huge progressive. Neither was her husband.

    She is not Kucinich. She’s not even Franken or Grayson or Feingold.

    If you think she’d be better you’re definitely having “greener grass” issues.

    I may not like everything Obama does but at least I knew he was a pragmatic centrist when I voted for him instead of staying home.

    In fact, I’d rather have a consensus builder than a dictator.

    Dictators are not better with us in power than 8 years of THEM in power and if you can’t see that, you’re letting your Obama hatred blind you.

Comments are closed.