And now for something completely different- ten minutes of the greatest running back of the modern era:
For some reason, I remember a run on a Thanksgiving day game being outstanding, but I can not remember the exact run. And really, the only other argument I would accept is Sweetness.
Just Some Fuckhead
He was amazing and he was doing it out of the run and shoot, without a blocker, for the most part.
Comrade Jake
I’m pretty sure he was the ONLY reason to watch Detroit on many a Thanksgiving.
Zam
Mmm sexy
meh
was it the one where he made people look stoopid?
The Dangerman
Great, but the best I ever saw was Sweetness. That Ditka gave the ball to William Perry and not Payton on the goal line is a crime against the game.
In case you think I’m some Chicago homer, best baller I ever saw was Magic Johnson. Sorry, Mike.
Keeping with this best list:
Most Dominating Pitcher? Nolan Ryan.
Best Hitter? Tony Gwynn.
Best Power Hitter? Ken Griffey, Jr. (before his injuries)
Best Hockey Player? Who cares?
J.W. Hamner
Green Balloon Juice is what I thought it was.
I say crown their ass.
arguingwithsignposts
Wait, what happened to our open thread? those …helicopters … weren’t joking!
ETA: That’s smudge reading the BJ, just so ya know.
paulw
his visits with the Bucs were always painful ones… half the time he rocked, very rarely did the Bucs D stop him… :/
handy
Yeah but did Barry support a robust public option?
paulw
Best Hockey Player: Martin St. Louis
General Winfield Stuck
I agree with this. He was just incredible to watch, especially changing directions. He made moves that didn’t seem possible.
Karatist Preacher
I was a kid sitting in the stands of the losing end of a Colts game and watched Sanders run to one side of the field, everyone on the defense ran to that side, and he circled back back about twenty yards and outran everyone for what seemed like a 60 or 70 yard touchdown. It was the greatest athletic play I’ve seen in person.
I’d need to look up the stats for that game, but at the time it was amazing.
Doug
Well, if “modern era” begins after the great Jim Brown’s retirement, ok . . .
Gwangung
@The Dangerman: Hm Id go with Randy Johnson late 90s as most dominating pitcher…
meh
I remember watching him play against someone, maybe the Raiders, and he threw a cutback on on the safety, and the guys legs came clean off his body. He was cut in half by Barry Sanders – the guy was lying there in 2 pieces – Barry’s running actually made someone’s body lose molecular cohesion…the poor DB had the camera zoom in on his dying body and you could see him mouth “green balloons” but to no avail…Barry just sauntered off, flipped the ball to the ref, and said “You should have said ‘Green Balloons’ sooner bitch”…payton shmayton.
Ailuridae
@Just Some Fuckhead:
As a result of being in the run and shoot he rarely, if ever faced more than seven men in the box (think about it before you disagree) so only had one man to beat once he hit his initial hole.
I avoid sports threads here as I suspect I might have the same realization about John Cole that I once had about Bob Somerby – there are certain people who, when discussing sports immediately ignore all evidence to the contrary of what they strongly believe.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
How far back does the “modern era” go? Sanders is certainly up there, but the two best RBs I’ve ever seen were Jim Brown and OJ (speaking strictly of football ability, of course).
The Dangerman
@Gwangung:
Johnson’s up there, too. I’ve seen both in person; what I recall about Ryan was when his fastball hit the mitt, the sound was unreal. There were days he was unhittable (along with his 6 or 7 No-hitters, his 1 hitters and 2 hitters counts was through the roof).
Comrade Luke
Isn’t it weird that he just abruptly quit and we’ve never heard from him again?
arguingwithsignposts
I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to go with a little Emmitt Smith in here. Remember the playoff game with the broken ribs? When did Sanders do that?
MikeJ
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.): Nobody could get through an airport like OJ.
DanaHoule
I tell people I’m not an NFL fan, because I grew up in a city without a pro football team: I’m from Detroit. Since the Lions’ last NFL championship–1957–they’ve only won a single playoff game, I think in 1991, against the Cowboys, just before the Cowboys went on their run of big success with Aikman/Irvin/Smith etc. But in that game, I remember that Ken Norton Jr broke his leg as a result of Barry Sanders. Barry juked, and it so screwed up Norton that he planted his leg in a weird way and it snapped.
You’re quite a running back when you cause guys to break their legs without any contact.
One other thing: Barry played on some talented Lions teams (that always underperformed), and some teams without much talent. He was on some 12-4 teams, and some horrible teams. But whatever the rest of the team was like, he played hard every single game. The man never dogged it.
Detroit fans were fortunate to have both Barry Sanders and Steve Yzerman in the 80’s and 90’s.
As to whether Barry Sanders should be defeated, I’ll leave that decision up to the Vermonters.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Comrade Luke: He didn’t want to break Walter Payton’s record, IIRC.
General Winfield Stuck
@The Dangerman:
At 6′ 10′ he was damn near halfway to the plate by the time he released the ball.
But I would have to go with Ryan early in his career. When he still was a little wild and a 100 mh fastball. Scary dude on the mound. and Tom Seavers was also in that league.
JoePo
TNC has a pretty convincing argument for Emmitt Smith, but yeah, it’s Barry.
Though I was just playing Tecmo Super Bowl, and after that, you’d have a hard time convincing me Christian Okoye wasn’t the greatest ever. He’s a really interesting guy – only started football because Nigeria wouldn’t put him on their Olympic track and field team. Then he quit partly because of injuries, but mostly because he was bored with football.
Best running back I’ve seen since Sanders? Marshall Faulk. Did what Tomlinson used to do but for a longer stretch.
DanaHoule
@Comrade Luke:
Barry still shows up in Detroit every once in a while. But having lived in Detroit throughout his entire time with the Lions, it’s not surprising to me that he has mostly faded from view. He was always sort of private and didn’t need the flash and limelight.
J. Michael Neal
They show the start of the Thanksgiving Day run (at least *a* Thanksgiving Day run that I remember) a couple of times, like at the 1:48 mark. It’s where he almost reaches the line of scrimmage, finds that there’s nothing there, backs up two steps to avoid a tackler, goes sideways looking for a hole, finds one, stops to let someone else go by him, starts again, jumps sideways, and ends up in the end zone.
I still say Jim Brown was the best ever, but Sanders is right behind him with Payton. Emmitt Smith was damned good, but always had better offensive lines to help him than Sanders or Payton did. Sanders was definitely the most exciting of them.
I saw a paper a mechanical engineering professor wrote on the stresses that Sanders put on his ankles with those moves. His conclusion was that, even if you could do the things he did, you’d only do it once, because you’d have fractured your leg in three places.
Sanders wasn’t so much a running back as a localized violation of the law of conservation of momentum. He was perfectly capable of instantaneous deceleration to zero for long enough to let someone miss, then instantaneously re-accelerate to his previous velocity.
Lem Barney, Billy Sims, Barry Sanders. #20 had a hell of a run with the Lions, and only one playoff win to show for it.
John Cole
@JoePo: The Nigerian Nightmare.
John O
Bears fan here, sorry. (For several reasons.)
Not too many people outside Chicago understand/remember this, but Walter “Sweetness” Payton mainly played on really shitty teams.
Those of us close to the Bears understand that if there was a stat for it, Walter F. Payton would hold the record for “interceptions tackled,” and “key blocks made.”
I’m old enough to remember Gale Sayers and Dick Butkus, and Walter was all-’round better than both of them.
Bucky
As a Vikings fan, I completely agree. I have never watched anyone greater. It always made me angry when people said Emmitt Smith was better. He always had 2 to 3 pro bowlers on his line! Barry Sanders didn’t get a fullback until something like his 9th year, and then he ran for 2000 yards
arguingwithsignposts
Christian Okoye brings up Hakeem Olojuwan. What a great center. Just rocked it, and even fasted during Ramadan, wouldn’t drink water and still played the game. I admire that man.
Ailuridae
@DanaHoule:
But whatever the rest of the team was like, he played hard every single game. The man never dogged it.
Except of course all of those times where he didn’t like the level of defensive penetration in the backfield and effectively took a knee 3-4 yards behind the line of scrimmage. And Sanders did that far more often than any RB in league history as its the kind of thing that would typically cost you a job.
And if this is the real Dana Houle – cool. I’m a fan.
Doug
I rest my case.
J. Michael Neal
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Given how pathetic his line was, the run and shoot helped Sanders. Making the defense cover more wide receivers meant that there was a lot more open space for him to play with at the line.
Mako
Barry walked away in his prime because his team sucked. He is also married to a newscaster. He’s like Al Gore and Arnold Shwarzenwhatever and Walter Payton all rolled into one perpendicularly-stunted tasty ball of chocolatey goodness. Tiger Woods could learn from him.
arguingwithsignposts
@Bucky:
I’m not going to say Emmitt was better, just that they were equals.
dday
Want to hear something very strange?
You can hear my voice in the background of this video chanting “Barry, Barry.”
I worked for one year at NFL Films, and one day they asked all of us to go outside in front of a microphone and chant “Barry, Barry, Barry.” And the end result is on this video.
Dave Douglas was the name of the producer of this, IIRC.
Midnight Marauder
@Mako:
Maybe Barry could learn from Tiger…
John O
For the record, I loved Barry, too, and even OJ pre-murder spree, but Walter did more with less than any of them ever.
He was slow. But he never gave up a yard he could get. Ever.
JoePo
There was a really strange year where Scott Mitchell, Brett Perriman, Johnny Morton, and Herman Moore had huge numbers for that Lions offense. I think it was ’95. It’s one of those lineups that have been basically lost to history – except for Sanders of course. A ton of their records still stand, and I’m not sure if it’s because they were all that good or because the Lions have just been awful since then.
Back then, when I was about thirteen, people would mention similarly elusive names from the ’80s and to me it might as well have been the dead ball era. To mix sports. But now that’s what the ’90s are, and it’s blowing my fucking mind.
Ailuridae
@Bucky:
Sigh. Lomas Brown was an eight time Pro Bowler during Sanders prime and in 7 of 8 years was a first team all Conference or better (one of the two best tackles in the NFC). Kevin Glover was a four time all NFC selection and three time Pro Bowler. Sanders had an absolutely amazing line
Ailuridae
@J. Michael Neal:
FFS, his line was, by no means, pathetic.
mcd410x
@paulw: Imagine if Lecavalier had the desire that St. Louis has … unbelievable.
Mako
@Midnight Marauder:
Wilt Chamberlain will always be the king.
John O
I’m too old to know: Who has the best O-line in professional football these days?
Loneoak
An interesting anecdote: In Michigan, the state high school football championships are played at Ford Field, and formerly the Silverdome. My alma matter, East Grand Rapids HS, has a better win record at Ford Field than the Lions. We’re 6-0 since Ford Field opened in 2002.
Also, fuck the Lions, go Pack.
Tom
Payton is the best back. And if you’re talking pure runner, it’s Sayers.
Ailuridae
@John O:
Probably the Giants and I write that as a huge Dallas Cowboys fan.
Mako
@John O:
For the record, I loved Barry, too, and even OJ pre-murder spree, but Walter did more with less than any of them ever.
OJ really spoiled the whole “running-back as amusing Hollywood foil” bit.
John O
@Tom:
Right on.
Fern
That was a thing of beauty to watch – and my interest in sports is usually in the range of zero to nil.
John O
@Ailuridae:
I liked Emmitt a lot, too. He played hard. I just think he had better teams.
Bucky
@Ailuridae
Dude, the comparison was with the Cowboys line and Emmitt Smith specifically. Yes Lomas Brown was a great player. . . but to call Sanders’ line “amazing” is really stretching it. In fact, it’s borderline criminally insane.
Let’s look at the pro bowlers on the Cowboys line:
Jay Novacek (TE Counts)
Nate Newton
Mark Tuinei
Mark Stepnoski
Ray Donaldson
Larry Allen
Erik Williams
burnspbesq
Jim Brown is arguably the greatest player in the history of two sports. Ask anyone who ever saw him play lacrosse.
eldorado
as a college student in oklahoma during the mid 80’s who went to many ou and osu games, it was unbelievable that okie state’s backup to thurman thomas, an awesome college running back and future nfl hall of famer, was this sanders kid who could actually bend space and time on a simple toss sweep. it’s like they replaced grace kelly or audrey hepburn with an unpossibly more beautiful version.
Kilks
Pedro Martinez’ season in ’99 was amazing. His 1 hitter at Yankee Stadium was pure domination.
Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson are great choices, I have to go with Pedro.
John O
@burnspbesq:
No question about that. Jim Thorpe, too.
Too bad they didn’t have a ton of video.
Bucky
Also, Barry AVERAGED 5.0 yards per attempt (including 5.7 in one season and effing 6.1 yards per attempt in the 2000 yard season)
Emmitt’s best season he average 5.3 and over is career averaged 4.2.
Barry is the best back and it’s not even close.
Mako
I liked Emmitt a lot, too. He played hard.
True that. I liked how tight he was. Not many players tighter than Emmit.
John O
@Kilks:
Sorry, I still give the nod to Gibson’s ’67 (?) year (1.12 ERA?) and Koufax’s ’65 year. Maddux had a really good one too.
DrDave
@The Dangerman:
I’m with you: Walter Payton was the greatest running back of the modern era. But Barry and Emmitt without a doubt round out the top 3.
Nolan Ryan’s longevity was truly remarkable but inning for inning, Sandy Koufax was just as good if not better.
Michael was better than Magic in virtually every statistical category. So, for that matter, was Kareem. But Magic always looked like he was having the most fun.
I’ll add a couple of other bests from the NFL:
Best WR: Jerry Rice. Number 2 isn’t even close.
Best LB: Inside: Singletary Outside: LT
Best DB: Rod Woodson (CB) and Ronnie Lott (S)
burnspbesq
@John O:
It scares me to think about the sort of damage Jim Brown could have done to opposing goalies if he had been able to shoot with modern sticks. 120 mph would not have been out of the question, I think.
Mako
Sorry, I still give the nod to Gibson’s ‘67
The Byrdland. Sweet instrument.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
John:
Any unbiased football fan my age (48) would agree: Sanders was *the* best running back in the NFL in my lifetime.
And he had enough sense to walk away from the game while he was still able to walk. If he’d stayed in, he’d have broken every record there was to break. And perhaps have a lifetime of pain ala Earl Campbell.
The highlights of his career could fill a 2-hour NFL film documentary, he was *that* good.
The fact he was that good with the even-then-shitacular Loins says even more.
Kilks
@John O.
Bob Gibson was great. Though when comparing eras, in the late 60s the pitcher’s mound was raised. Pitcher’s had an advantage then over today. Yaz won the triple crown with 326. 44 home runs and 121 RBIs. Those would not have led the league in any category in 99′.
Pedro dominated in the height of the steroid era.
Ailuridae
@Bucky:
Pro Bowls are disproportionately influenced by the Cowboys immense popularity and, of course, winning games. All Pro and All conference selections are not. While there is no doubt that Allen is by far the best of the lineman on either team, neither Stepnowski or Donaldson was on Glover’s level Williams was about even with Brown. Jay Novaceck couldn’t block anyone – did you ever watch the Cowboys play?
But, again, I’m not comparing their lines as Dallas is clearly better. But anyone suggesting Sanders ran behind a bad line or was hampered by scheme just has no idea what they are talking about.
John O
@DrDave:
LOL, to you AND Dangerman.
But I’m going to throw out the best combo-DB ever, Lester Hayes and Mike Haynes. Just for fun.
Lott was a smart, scary player, but Woodson rules completely, and IMO is HoF material. He’s dominated at every level.
Just Some Fuckhead
@dday: That’s pretty cool.
John O
@Kilks:
Kilks, I loved Pedro at his peak, too.
Dominant and fun. I like that stuff in my sports.
People rag on Favre all the time for being a dick, which I certainly believe he’s been, but the damn guy constantly looks like he’s having so much fun out there I can’t help but like him.
Comrade Kevin
@paulw:
HA HA HA HA HA!
Among current players only, these people are all better than him:
Jarome Iginla
Evgeni Malkin
Sidney Crosby
Joe Thornton
Patrick Marleau
Martin Brodeur
Alex Ovechkin
Rick Nash
Mako
But anyone suggesting Sanders ran behind a bad line or was hampered by scheme just has no idea what they are talking about.
Okay, he had Juan Roque for a season. But otherwise, meh.
eldorado
payton was a great back on horrible teams for the most part. but what separates him from sanders and e. smith is that he was a complete back. if you are familiar with the strat-o-matic board game, his blocking rating (for the years that i had the cards) is a 7/6, which is the highest possible. he was also an excellent receiver out of the backfield, as well as a unreal runner.
emmit was a decent blocker, and ok receiver. sanders a better receiver than blocker.
Adam
Barry did the most amazing things that I’ve ever seen out of a RB, but if I had to pick a RB to play in a game to save my life, I’m going with Emmitt over him 10 times out of 10. Barry could rack up 250 yards, but he could easily give you 40 yards with 10 carries for losses. As much as he could singlehandedly win you a game, he could easily singlehandedly lose you a game, and no one ever likes to talk about that. Emmitt was 100 yards pretty much guaranteed, and Barry couldn’t have played through the shoulder injury that Emmitt did against the Giants in ’93. And Emmitt kept it going well after his uber-Pro Bowl OL retired/diminished. Barry walking away from the game in 1999 with no consideration for his teammates is always going to stick in my craw. Emmitt > Barry.
mk3872
Barry Sanders, though, never won a big game in his pro career
The Dangerman
@DrDave:
Sadly (happily?), before my time. Although it is way cool to listen to Vin Scully call Koufax’s games on Youtube (or wherever I heard them). LA Boy here, blessed to have grown up listening to Scully, Hearn, and Endberg call the local boys.
Can’t argue, but Magic did some unreal things. More athletic? Jordan. More rings? Jordan (although the Lakers should have beat Detroit the year they were swept, but Scott went down and then Magic went down). More PPG? Jordan. But Magic was more than the stats. Dude was amazing.
Good choice; Lynn Swann is up there (obligatory Steelers reference).
Won’t try arguing LT; not sure about Singletary. How about Jack Hamm (football isn’t my thing, I don’t recall if he was inside or outside, and, again, Steelers reference).
Biased here; RL is from my area. Saw him in HS. Stud.
seehearBL
The problem with the Lions during the Barry years was never so much the offensive line as it was the coaching and quarterbacking. Wayne Fontes was dismal, borderline retarded. Bobby Ross was an ill-tempered buffoon. The quarterback shuffle Barry had to endure was absurd (and to end up with the predominant starters being Rodney Peete and Scott Mitchell is just criminal). Players like Barry Sanders come along once in a lifetime, and for William Clay Ford to have squandered him and his talents is an everlasting shame and speaks to their incompetence.
And for the Jim Brown people out there, it’s true: Jim Brown was the best running back of his time. But his time featured less athletic prowess among the players due to the nature of the game at the time and the widely held beliefs about training and nutrition of the era. The game was largely played by slower, less athletic (read: merely large-framed) bruisers who couldn’t break a 5.0 forty with the wind at their backs. They ate like shit and didn’t understand physiology and metabolism the way we do today. Jim Brown’s natural athletic ability gave him a huge advantage among the players of the day, but if you dropped Brown in his prime onto the field today he probably wouldn’t make the practice squad.
Kilks
@John O.
Full disclosure, I’m young enough that I don’t remember Clemens on the Red Sox. So while I’ve heard about Gibson and Koufax, I watched Pedro.
Gibson could definitely have been more dominant than Pedro.
Reggie White has my vote for best defensive lineman of all time, speaking of former Packers.
Mako
Payton, Smith, Sanders, all good in their padded sport, but none can hold Stirling Mortlock’s solid brass.
Bucky
@Ailuridae:
Nate Newton: 2 Time first team All-Pro
Larry Allen: 6 Time first team All-Pro
Erik Williams: 2 Time first team All-Pro
Tuinei: 2 years all conference (first team)
Donaldson: 1 year all conference (first team)
Stepnowski: 2 years all conference (first team)
Glover has 4 years all conference. No all pros. Brown has 1 all-pro year.
The run and shoot clearly spread people out. . .but the first year Sanders had a fullback he ran for 2000 yards and had the highest ypc of his career.
Also remember these guys:
Rodney Peete
Scott Mitchell
Erik Kramer
Dave Krieg
Charlie Batch
Those were the LIons leading passers during Sanders’ years. He was the only person you ever had to stop.
(EDIT: Ware not a leading passer and removed)
General Winfield Stuck
My little Werewolf, Charlie waking from a nap
Thomas
Barry Sanders, perhaps the only thing Oklahoma State football ever did right (at least until Gundy is fired that’ll be two). Its ironic that the greatest running back ever, played college football in the state of Oklahoma but didn’t play for the University of Oklahoma (sorry Adrian, you’re not even close).
arguingwithsignposts
@Comrade Kevin:
Has mike modano retired?
ETA: Brodeur isn’t fair. Goalies are a different category.
jacy
@The Dangerman:
I take offense at your hockey snub.
Peter Forsberg, Peter Forsberg, Peter Forsberg.
Patrick Roy. Also. Any goalie who will skate out to the blue line and check and opposing player is aces in my book.
And there is nothing more wonderful than grown men standing on a field of ice and hitting each other with sticks. That is all.
Mako
but if you dropped Brown in his prime onto the field today he probably wouldn’t make the practice squad
This is exactly why I support steroids and robotics in sports.
I want to see the best, i don’t care if they are amped on anabolics or are wearing the Flex-foot J, I want them to jump higher, run faster, excel.
Comrade Kevin
@arguingwithsignposts: No, Modano is still playing, though he is mostly relegated to a checking role with the Stars now.
John O
I don’t even see how anyone could argue with Gretsky being Mr. Hockey Greatest Ever.
Doug
but if you dropped Brown in his prime onto the field today he probably wouldn’t make the practice squad.
Shows you don’t know what you’re talking about. Jim Brown would have benefited from all the nutritional stuff, too. And he wouldn’t have needed much help. He was punishing and indomitable. His era was primarily a running era; the defense always looked for it, and looked for him. Defenses of that day were designed to stop the run; not so these days. Jim Brown was a monster, and he would have been as dominant in the modern era as before. I grew up in central Ohio in the 50s and 60s and saw him every Sunday. Of seen the rest, too. Brown was utterly amazing. Check the youtube highlights of his career. I’m sure you’ll agree.
Dr. Drang
It’s almost impossible to compare Sanders and Payton because their styles were so different. I’m prejudiced toward Walter because of where and when I grew up, but either is a legitimate choice for the greatest. (Sorry, Emmitt fans. Your team was just too good and had too many other things for a defense to worry about.)
What still amazes me is that one of the Bears’ most effective plays was the draw to Payton. It didn’t fool anyone—for most of his career, the Bears had no other offensive threat, and it was common for Walter to carry the ball 30 times a game. But the short delay before he got the ball gave him the time to figure out the defense and how to attack it.
Anyway, with their careers almost back-to-back, they gave us almost 25 years of great running.
arguingwithsignposts
@Comrade Kevin:
Just for my memory of sitting fourth row in the Stanley Cup finals watching the stars beat the sabres.
DanaHoule
@Comrade Kevin:
You don’t mention the guy the Hockey News (iirc) named the player of the decade: Nick Lidstrom.
The Dangerman
@jacy:
Well, Hockey has a problem in the U.S.; too many teams, not enough … something. It’s #4 of the Big 4 and fading…
…but, you’re right, should have said “I don’t care”. I’d have a hard time naming 10 active players … a shame, as it is a fine sport to watch in person (kinda like soccer, another lovely game in person that TV can’t seem to show well).
arguingwithsignposts
@Comrade Kevin: BTW, it is sad to see Modano in such a role. In his prime, he was teh awesome. fast and lethal.
John O
@Dr. Drang:
Everyone knew Walter was the Bears’ best option for at least half his career.
But we’re all biased by our geography. :-)
(I think Jim Brown would’ve kicked ass and taken names in the modern era.)
MMM
Don’t have time to read all of the comments (I will tomorrow) but at least you qualified your statement by adding Sweetness. Depending on what you call the modern era, he was the best. Definitely no Jim Brown. And Gale Sayers was Sweet on his own as well. Glad you are not making a case for Mr. Run out of Bounds. Not sure if I would put Barry Sanders in my Top Five of Modern Era, but he could make tacklers miss and was a hell of a running back. But compared to Mr. Walter Payton…..PLEASE…….
Comrade Kevin
@arguingwithsignposts: He was, indeed. He was a Shark-killer, too.
arguingwithsignposts
@The Dangerman:
That is the truest thing ever spoken. Hockey and soccer are both that way. I used to play goalie, and it is a beautiful game. More so than (American) football.
arguingwithsignposts
@Comrade Kevin: aided by Belfour. damn, i never understood why the Stars were in the same conference with the sharks. pacific time sucked.
rs
@paulw: He’s not the best player on his [email protected]Comrade Kevin: Even this late in his career, Nick Lidstrom should be on that list (along with at least a dozen other players).
Smith would have been a shadow of himself on the Lions. On the Cowboys, Sanders would have rushed for 2000 yards multiple times.
DanaHoule
@Bucky:
The Lions definitely had mediocre and bad quarterbacks. But Barry wasn’t the only guy you had to cover; Herman Moore was one of the best receivers of the era, and guys like Johnny Morton and Brett Perriman were pretty damn good.
The Lions’ problem was never really one of talent as much as it was, as seehearBL points out correctly, coaching and quarterbacking (and other personnel decisions). The Sporting News, in the mid or late 90’s, rated the Lions as the most successful team in the NFL in first round picks. Their problems were seldom a lack of big play guys. It was that they really sucked at the 2nd and 3rd round guys (who are generally the bulk of starters on a good team), and Wayne Fontes was simply dumb.
But Barry does deserve criticism for going to bat for Wayne Fontes when he was was under pressure from management and ownership. And Bobby Ross has his detractors, but he did get a team to the Super Bowl, and the Lions–who by his time had less talent–did at least play hard those few seasons he coached them. And it was the departure of Wayne Fontes and the arrival of Bobby Ross that precipitated Barry’s abrupt retirement.
The Dangerman
@arguingwithsignposts:
Can’t watch either on TV; in person, it’s fascinating. I wish I understood either in more detail.
Maybe it’s a field size thing or perspective; for example, basketball translates well to TV (I’m biased here), but to really enjoy basketball, I sit behind the basket and watch the plays develop. It’s a lovely art when done right…
arguingwithsignposts
@The Dangerman:
Well, watching a hockey play develop is a thing of beauty too, especially up close. But basketball, hockey, soccer don’t have the set-up that football and baseball have.
Bucky
@DanaHoule
Moore was a great player but you weren’t primarily worried about him or Johnnie Morton when the Lions came to town. You were worried about stopping #20.
Their defenses were always terrible They had a #6 ranking in 1993 but were mediocre every other year. The only player I really remember on defense from those lions teams was Chris Spielman.
According to Wikipedia, Barry does say in his book that he liked Bobby Ross as a coach, and his arrival had nothing to do with him leaving.
I was young when Sweetness was playing but I can see the argument for him being the greatest. Emmitt Smith is a non-starter to me.
John O
@seehearBL:
That’s hard to argue with, but I simply believe that the skill to “not get tackled” is more born than made, and Jim Brown was a mo-fo who didn’t like to be tackled, and had the skills to avoid it.
It’s not like evolution has made a big difference between the ’50’s-’60’s and the ’80-’90’s.
DrDave
@The Dangerman:
If you enjoyed listening to Scully, read Jane Leavy’s book on Koufax. A biography done in 9 innings, paralleling Koufax’s 4th no-hitter, against the Cubs in Sept 1965. Just a great read.
Yes, Magic did some amazing things. But what I will always remember about him was the huge smile that almost never left his face. So I’ll split the difference with you: Jordan may have been better, Magic was more fun to watch.
Ham played outside LB, the other Jack (Lambert) was the Steelers’ stellar MLB. Both outstanding linebackers, playing for one of the greatest defenses of all time. But Singletary was unbelievable. Great vision, great range, he controlled the middle of the field. He and Payton were the biggest stars on that Bears team.
@John O:
Woodson was inducted to the HOF this year. He and Bruce Smith were well deserved first ballot inductees. (Can we get a Bruce vs. Reggie argument going here?)
John O
‘Night, all.
Better than HCR, for sure.
John O
@DrDave:
Hmmm…I’m partial to Alan Page (and two of the other three Purple People Eaters) and Deacon Jones and, yes, Howie Long.
And everyone should try to remember all those Steelers linebackers, particularly Lambert and Hamm, but we also shouldn’t forget Hendricks and Nitchke and Bednarik, all true bad-asses.
burnspbesq
@seehearBL:
Wrong comparison.
Think about it this way. How much better was Sanders than the next-best back of his era? Not by a lot.
How much better was Jim Brown than the next-best back of his era? Well, there is a reason why the name Lenny Moore means nothing to football fans under the age of 55.
DrDave
@John O:
I thought Nitschke was the best until Singletary came along.
PPE vs. Steel Curtain? I go with Minnesota (by a hair).
Bednarik was even before my time (I was 5 when he hung up his cleats); maybe the last great two way player.
Ailuridae
@The Dangerman:
As any hockey fan will tell you watching hockey on TV in HD is a game changer. Its not the clarity of picture (although that helps too) but the HD aspect ratio allows you to comfortably see so much more of the ice (and the developing action) that it makes it more like following it live.
rs
@DrDave: Dick Butkus?
jacy
@Ailuridae:
Hockey in HD is like sex and chocolate and really good vodka all that the same time.
Bubblegum Tate
@John O:
My vote is for the Colts.
burnspbesq
There are all sorts of metrics by which one can judge athletes. One that I like because it facilitates comparisons across sports is some measure of dominance. How much better was Athlete X than everybody else of his or her time?
To may way of thinking, the most dominant athletes of my lifetime are Jim Brown, Bobby Orr, Ruffian, Edwin Moses, and Mia Hamm.
Tonal Crow
It’s not even close. Payton had it all over Sanders in vision, agility, and — best — grit. He took the tackle to the defense, again and again. And he was just the master of the stiff-arm. Check this out.
Rob in Denver
This.
The Dangerman
@jacy:
I’d like to have that in HD.
Just sayin’.
MMM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=4767784
Today’s Steeler fans can put dope in their veins or hope in their brains. If they can conceive it and believe it, they can achieve it. They must know it is not their aptitude but their attitude that will determine their altitude.
AMEN
Morbo
With these memories comes the cruel reality of 2-12 today. You’re killing me here.
Xanthippas
God he was fantastic. And he walked away at the very height of his ability! Too bad he got stuck with the woeful Detroit Lions, or he might’ve actually played longer and won the Super Bowl he deserved.
Irony Abounds
@seehearBL:
There are dumb comments on this blog from time to time, but this has to rank up there with the dumbest. In college he was great not only in football, but in lacrosse, basketball and track.
Given his size, speed and durability, put him in today’s game with today’s training and other advances and he’d be an effin monster.
Best.Running.Back.Ever.Period
Oh, and he almost came back to play when Franco Harris approached his record because he thought Franco was a pussy for running out of bounds so much. I’m sure that might influence Mr. Cole’s feelings about Mr. Brown.
LosGatosCA
The video does not do justice to Barry’s thighs. Saw him many a time at the Silverdome.
They were huge and where he got his power from. How he ran so fast with them was a mystery.
Barry wasn’t an inspirational teammate, however. His teammates called him the ‘Ghost’, not affectionately, and then one day he disappeared and never came back.
Jimmy Johnson recruited him to be Thurman Thomas’s backup and successor at Oklahoma State.
Jimmy knew talent and he could recruit. Two NFL Hall of Famers in the same backfield at OK State. That’s ridiculous.
Parthenon
Nah. His first eighteen runs would go for fifteen yards and then he’d take one to the house.
Andy K
Packers’ fan, following faithfully for 37+ years in the midst of (not subject to blackout) Lions’ territory.
I watched Barry and Sweetness both play, and I’d much rather have had the latter on my team. Payton could do everything that Barry did, but Barry wasn’t capable of doing everything that Payton did. Payton could run it up the gut, Barry couldn’t. Payton could leap over the pile, Barry couldn’t. Payton could read his blocks, while barry ran into his blockers constantly. Payton was a better blocker, both on the running and passing plays. Payton was a better receiver, sometimes lining up as an end. Payton through a great pass on the halfback option. Payton was the Bears emergency kicker, and, iirc, his leg was put to use on more than one occasion. Payton was a better running back by a bit, and a better football player by a wide margin.
Andy K
@rs:
When he was healthy, Butkus was probably better than Nitschke. The problem was, Butkus was injured for an awful lot of his career.
NobodySpecial
Trade lines between Barry and Emmitt and Emmitt’s lucky if he gets 8,000 yards in his career. He wasn’t built for escapablity. Sanders gets the nod here for that 60 to 0 back to 60 in three steps acceleration and sheer willingness to keep moving.
Payton was the most complete running back of the modern era, but Sanders was hands down the best runner.
And Cole, I think I know which run you’re talking about. Versus the Patriots, they show a little bit of it early on in the video. He turned the guy trying to stop him in a complete circle with two cuts and scored.
Andy K
@NobodySpecial:
No, he wasn’t. I saw Payton do all of the dancing and spinning years before Barry did it. I saw, on numerous occasions, Barry chased down from behind when he had a ten-yard lead on a tackler.
You want to know why Barry had better stats than Payton? It was because for the majority of his career, Payton was the only real offensive option on the Bears. They had no receivers with Pro Bowl talent, and sub-par quarterbacks were the norm until the arrival of the Punky QB. their defenses were no great shakes for the first half of Payton’s career. So what the Bears coaches- Pardee, Armstrong and early Ditka- did was play ground control offense. They ran it up the gut for 3.34 yards three times straight, running clock, picking up first downs, keeping the defense rested, with the goal of a 17-13 win. And if they got ahead they’d open it up, letting Payton break ’em off outside the tackles to lengthen a lead.
Here’s the Lions with Barry: Run outside for the prettiest loss of a yard ever. Run it up the middle for 0 yards, because Barry ran up the back of his right guard. Barry out, throw to Herman Moore or Willie Green for 13 yards. Run Barry off tackle for 5 yards, run Barry outside for 4 yards, run Barry up the middle for 0 yards, Punt. Sometimes that 13 yard pass was incomplete. Occasionally Barry broke one for 80 and a TD. More often than the 80 yard TD, Barry would run 78, to the two-yard line, sit a play, and get stonewalled on second and third down, and they’d settle for a Hanson FG. Sometimes they go for it on fourth down, and most of the time in those situations if Barry touched the ball, he lost a yard. I can’t even count the number of times I saw this happen, but I saw it a LOT.
But I’ll sort of agree with you on this: Emmit Smith wouldn’t have put up gaudy numbers, either yardage-wise or scoring-wise, with the Lions’ line. But I think Sanders’ rushing yardage stats would have remained static wherever he played, but so would his scoring stats, because he was an ineffective runner against a stacked defense in short yardage situations. And by ineffective I mean pathetic.
Andy K
@Loneoak:
Okay, do we know each other? I went to Ottawa Hills (Class of ’83) and I was the biggest Packers’ fan around Eastown for about two decades (I mellowed on Eastown, not the Packers). My kid graduated from EGRHS in ’08.
The Pioneers have a great football program, dating back long before Ford Field opened. They also have a great LaCrosse team, boys and girls swim and tennis teams, great debate and forensics teams….East is the best high school, academically, in the state, too. Preppy bastards…
DrDave
@rs:
Butkus was a great LB for 5 years until he trashed his knee. Nitschke and Singletary were each a game changing force at MLB for over ten years.
@Andy K:
Here’s my bottom line on the Barry vs. Sweetness debate: Even if you call them even on talent, Sweetness gets the edge on heart. He was the heart and soul of the Bears offense, when he was the only option and after they got some passing and receiving talent to take some of the burden off him. On my all-time fantasy team, he’s the guy I want in the backfield.
Hunter Gathers
Sanders v. Payton? Gotta go with Sweetness. First football player I ever knew anything about. And yes, I did cry when he died.
Some others have given their ‘best’ lists so here goes:
Best hitter? Tony Gwynn. If the strike hadn’t killed the 1994 season, he would have hit .400 that year.
Best pitcher? Greg Maddux. Randy Johnson and Nolan Ryan are close, but Maddux put up crazy numbers in the mid- 90’s. And he didn’t have Johnson or Ryan’s arm strength.
Best all around baseball player? This may sound odd, but I have to go with Vladimir Guerrero. Before his knees went to shit, he was all world. He’s the only guy I’ve ever seen who could drive a pitch around his shoetops or eyeballs 400 feet. Not many guys can be credibly compared to Roberto Clemente. And Clemente was a god.
Best basketball player? Jordan. No disrespect to Magic or Bird is implied.
Best QB? Right now, Montana. But Peyton Manning may surpass him. Which will make me hate him more than I already do.
Best defensive player? Lawrence Taylor. He’s why left tackles make so much money these days. Ask Joe Theismann.
I don’t watch hockey, so I wouldn’t know.
jackmac
Best running back?
C’mon, there’s no debate. It’s the late, great Walter Payton.
metricpenny
Thanks for including that last line. I watched the video of Barry but never saw him go airborne or block/strong-arm a defensive player without breaking stride.
Walter Payton is number one on my list. I’ve amended the Bears’ fight song to include him.
Bear down, Chicago Bears …
We’ll never forget the way you thrilled the naaaaaaaaaaa-tion, with the T-formation AND Walter Paaaaaaaaay-ton!
Damn, you got a girl getting weepy.
RIP Sweetness!
Maxwel
Jim Brown was IMO the greatest XL athlete in the history of the planet. If he were 25 today, he’d be maybe 6-5″, 255#.
marsbars
Gotta go with Mako that Wilt Chamberlain is the best baller evah! How many years since he retired and his name is still all over the top of the all time records. And – like Barry and Walter – he did it with lesser teammates for most of his career. Just look up how many rules the NBA changed because Wilt was so dominant. Dude used to dunk his free throws!
Tropical Fats
Walter Payton. He could run, catch, and block (watching him stonewall a blitzing linebacker was amazing). He was the Bears’ emergency quarterback, kicker, and punter. He could have been a great linebacker or safety. How many times when he would get tackled would he bounce up like nothing happened but the defender laid there on the turf like he’d been hit by a train?
And as several others have said, when he was at his peak in the late 70’s, the Bears had NOTHING else on offense. It was all him. When he set the single game rushing record with 275 yards, the Bears won that game 10-7. They didn’t have a quarterback who was better than abysmal until Jim McMahon got there in 1982.
Walter Payton was the greatest.
rs
@DrDave: Butkus wasn’t game-changing for those five years? I think offenses probably planned for the presence of Dick Butkus to a greater extent than they did Ray Nitschke. I went to plenty of games at Tiger Stadium back then and saw them both play. In my opinion, Joe Schmidt was the equal of Nitschke, and both were a cut below Butkus (there were a couple other great middle linebackers of that era who deserve at least a mention, Willie Lanier and Tommy Nobis).
I agree with those who would pick Payton over Sanders to build a team around. In addition to his leadership, running ability, and pass receiving skills, he was one of the best blocking running backs I ever watched play.
rs
@DrDave: By the way, Butkus’ career was nearly as long as Jim Brown’s, not five years as you stated.
The Pale Scot
No, No, No;
Barry was spectacular to watch, but the running game is supposed to control the game, Barry was was more like another option of the chuck and duck. He had a lot of negative carries, then would rip off a tear. He was uniquely suited for the chuck and duck, which forced defenses into playing extra defensive backs off the line, giving Barry open space Barry could exploit. Detroit failed on 3rd and short regularly.
For one single game Earl Campbell is the man, explosive speed and quickness with incredible power. “You knew you were going to lose a couple of IQ points when you played him”. But for a whole season Walter is the only choice, the man could block, catch and was durable; fuck Ditka for not getting him a TD in the Superbowl.
The Pale Scot
but the running game is supposed to control the tempo of the game,
There, that’s better
Uncle Omar
For all you non-hockey folks and you young hockey folks, two names…Maurice Richard and Gordie Howe. They played when there were 6 teams in the NHL, no helmets, no masks, and a goal was more precious than a soccer goal is today. Gordie Howe is the toughest s.o.b. who played professional sports, in North America or anywhere else, since the collapse of the Roman Empire. He was playing in the NHL in his 50’s and still had a big Keep Back sign on him. Nobody messed with Gordie after he whipped Louie Fortunado in 1957. As much as I admire Gretz, he would have needed a Gordie Howe on his team if he played in the 50’s to keep him alive, and the NHL opened up the game in the 80’s to draw fans and because the talent pool wouldn’t support the type of game they played thirty years earlier.
And, John, thanks for the video. It’s about the only thing we Lions’ fans have to cheer these days.
Andy K
@Uncle Omar:
I’ll add Jean Arthur “Le Gros Bill” Béliveau, the picture of grace on ice.
(and, not to be a spelling troll, but it’s “Leapin’ Louie” Fontinato who had his face rearranged by Mr. Hockey)
Andy K
@rs:
You can’t talk about middle linebackers from the ’60s without mentioning Sam Huff, who was the first to play the position. He was pretty damned great at it, too.
rs
@Andy K: Absolutely. I was remiss in failing to mention him. I was listing guys I actually saw play. @Uncle Omar: I saw Gordie Howe fight (I can’t remember who) my first time to the Olympia. Legend has it that Fontinato jumped him from behind, breaking a couple of Howe’s ribs, before getting pummeled.
Gretzky did have bodyguards, Semenko and McSorley.
None of them, including Gordie Howe, was Bob Probert’s equal as a hockey fighter.
D-Chance.
Sorry, but discussion of the “greatest of the modern era” doesn’t begin until Earl Campbell comes into the conversation. A totally different style of running compared to Sanders or Payton or Smith, but brutal and effective. One of the fastest and most talented power rushers.
Jack Youngblood still has the imprint of Campbell’s helmet on his chest.
rs
@D-Chance.: Smith doesn’t belong in the discussion with Payton, Sanders, Campbell, Dickerson, Simpson, and Jim Brown. Gale Sayers and Bo Jackson were also better during their too short careers, as is Adrian Peterson.
Mediocre backs would have been pro bowlers running behind the Cowboy line of the 90s.
arguingwithsignposts
@D-Chance.: Campbell. Indeed. Houston was teh suck, but the Tyler Rose was a great one.
patrick
It is, of course, patently silly to try to deem one very talented running back (Sanders) as better than another (Smith, Payton) because of all the various factors involved. None of them ran behind the same offensive lines; none of them ran with the same offensive game plans; none of them ran under the same weather conditions; etc., etc.
Yet still, after seeing all of these players over the years, if I were to already have the ten best offensive players in my back pocket and my last choice was for a running back, it’d be Sanders* (Payton would be a close second), if for no other reason than that he was possibly the classiest football player I’ve ever watched.
If there is one thing about pro football that irritates me from week to week, it’s the showboating that occurs with almost every play, often at the expense of another player. Sanders — whether after ripping off a long run for a touchdown or failing to gain a yard (and yes, he ran for many a loss) — would bounce up and hand the ball to the referee. And if you hadn’t seen the play, you wouldn’t have known which of the two had just happened. He did his job then got ready for the next play — as it should be.
*disclosure: I’ve been a Lions fan all my life
round guy
I always loved watching Walter Payton play—he was so incredibly physical and never shrank from anything. But watching the video made me remember just how strong Barry Sanders was as well. Those thighs are like tree trunks.
As for the defensive side of things I’ve always felt that Greg Lloyd has been largely forgotten, but he was absolutely menacing for a number of years in that Steeler linebacking corps. Certainly the best in the league at that time until that whole staph thing.
In hockey, Gretzky was a magician; he was mezmerizing to watch. I also count myself lucky to have been living in the ‘Burgh (I’m in Philly now) while Lemieux was in his prime. Those were some hockey teams.
Jack
no love for the Tyler Rose? I’m sorry but Earl Campbell was absolutely amazing to watch and had not better conditions than Barry. Yes, Barry was poetry in motion, but so was Earl.
Paul in KY
Barry is the best college football player I ever saw. Bo Jackson being # 2.
Best pro football player was Walter Payton (great inside runner, outside runner, punish the defender, great blocker, excellent pass catcher, fine punter, good backup QB, and adequate FG kicker).