I’m cranky, so it is probably just better if I don’t blog.
BTW- now that Dorgan announced his retirement from the Senate, do the HCR bill-killers still want a do-over?
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SteveinSC
It is clear that there can never be perfect defense against the lone or handful of dedicated terrorists. We are trying a Maginot Line defense and it will be just as useless. Exhausting ourselves in a hopeless, exponentially growing effort. As we all are aware, the internet is constantly being hacked, infected, and successfully attacked inspite of the best efforts of well-financed and extensive efforts. Just some little dicks (among others) in their parent’s basement sticking pins in the bloated internet software establishment. Example is the Acrobat hole that Acrobat doesn’t have a fix for yet. People can fly naked after anal/vaginal probing and there will still be breaches: from the pilots, the stewardesses or the zillions of ground crew. Besides, if terrorists are of a mind to do it, shopping centers, sporting events, etc., are all juicy secondary targets. The best we can do is expect this to happen while trying to track this shit down at the source. I have mentioned this before, I believe, but in the 1800’s during the Indian Wars, the US tried sending armies dragging cannons across the plains with failure after failure against a handful of versatile and resourceful competition. The US finally learned that the only way to defeat the native Americans was with native Americans teamed with light, agile US forces. The Indians were literally run to death.
We were spanked real hard on 9/11 by clever people. We ought to take a breath and fucking think for a change, ourselves.
Mario Piperni
This should ease anyone’s crankiness:
Wingnuts Criticizing Wingnuts
and the followup…
Wingnut Alert!
Violet
@SteveinSC:
Are you saying we should give smallpox blankets to the terrorists?
demkat620
Oh we need a do over now more than ever John.
Didn’t Matt Taibbi say we needed to wait another 6 or 8 years with a different congress to do it right?
Stupid. Pass the damn bill cause I garantee you, Hoeven will not be a yes vote.
General Winfield Stuck
That was Geronimo, he was a clever sonofagun.
The Populist
@SteveinSC:
You make some good points there. Too bad Americans think the only way to beat the terrorists is to bomb the fuck out of the middle east.
Fact: Billions are muslims. How many are actual terrorists? If anything scares me it’s the segment of this country that wants out and out war with Islam. There may only be 1% of the Muslim world population dedicated to hurting America. Going after Islam insures the other 99% get involved and that could be a BIG problem.
Shut the Christian right up, work with the good Muslims to beat the bad ones and hope that the Iranian students overthrow the Mullahs and THAT is where we may see a true change and a calming of the winds since Iran finances a lot of terrorists.
Mayken
@SteveinSC: Yeah, I’m not really sure that our treatment of Native Americans is really the go-to strategy for dealing with terrorism. Isn’t that kinda how we get terrorists in the first place?
The Populist
@demkat620:
WRT Health care…the dems in congress are correct to cut out the right. The right are not going to budge and any failure in this bill will be blamed, no matter what, on the Dems. The dems have no choice but to sneak in the public option or change it for the better and send it off to Obama.
A good bill will go a long way to beating the right in 2010.
jenniebee
@Violet: Good plan. Bio weaponry can never be turned back onto its originators.
Keith G
@SteveinSC:
And we need to change our vocabulary. Even liberal commentators speak of terrorist attempts to “Bring down America” or threats “to our national security.”
Wrong! These clearly are not existential threats, except that if we treat them as such, the country I love *will* no longer exist.
The Populist
@Mayken:
I see the gist of what he is saying. Once we realized how futile it was trying to fight the Indians, we started working with some of them to create reservations and leave them alone. Look at Australia and the aborigines.
To get this situation under some control means we may have to stop thinking about attack and sit down and try to work with some friendlier elements for an understanding.
demkat620
@The Populist: You’re kidding right?
Rhoda
Dorgan was one of the good ones.
Sucks.
This is the first retirement/whatever that really freaked me out for a second. I swear to God, someone over there at the DNC/OFA/WH better start lighting a fire and bring the base home so we can keep the blue states in line and fight the purple. And on that note, if Obama can tell Paterson to get gone he ought to start making the same noises at Dodd IMO. Because CT is going to go red if that dude is on the ticket. And given the landscape; we can’t afford to run a guy who is polling what Dodd’s polling when a Lamont would likely win in a walk.
BeccaM
Now Reid and his weak-kneed cohorts will be able to fall back on their “we don’t have 60 votes” excuse more easily.
Look for more GOP-friendly right wingish ‘bipartisan’ crap to pass in the years to come… First up, they’ll make the Bush tax cuts permanent.
For the economy, you see. We need some more “trickle on economics”. They’ll call it the Happy Rain Revenue Enhancement Act and scold anyone who dares to point out it’s yellow and awfully warm.
AhabTRuler
As long as we can agree that it was never intended for the Maginot line to stop the German army, it was only ever intended to slow them down.
Martin
We need to see if the bill-killers are willing to work against Coakley in MA this month. If she doesn’t win, the GOP filibuster will be unbreakable. Congress would be wise to sort this shit out before that election.
mcc
Doesn’t really seem like it was effective at that either.
General Winfield Stuck
@Rhoda:
ND is not really purple. It is deep red with a labor dem sentiment for electing state level dems and us congresscritters.
It is a very white and religiously conservative state that is subject to tea bag sentiments of mistrusting federal influence. Not unlike many other red states in the west and midwest. And to a degree in the south, at least for state legislatures.
Dorgan is much more progressive than Conrad, and with a national sweep by dems, particularly building big majorities from New England liberals replacing moderate small government repubs
there, this is not all that surprising to me.
Add that to the natural and historical anxiety of the electorate for any first term presnit in a mid term election, for either party, and Dorgan is not in a good place.
J.W. Hamner
To be fair, don’t the do-over peeps want to do reconciliation with 51? There can’t be progressives out there who think getting 60 after ditching this bill is even remotely possible… can there?
John Cole
I don’t know, but I’m thinking that what is really going to help Democrats in 2010 is not passing HCR and then spending the next eight months fighting internally.
jwb
@J.W. Hamner: Problem is there’s not even 51 to do reconciliation. Last I heard there were only 44 that could really be counted on.
Tsulagi
Nah, you really don’t want these Democrats working their magic on this further. Given the bill-fluffers, they’ll get on their knees for ANYTHING.
Elizabelle
Can they do something about the filibuster before Dorgan leaves?
And I agree about Dodd. If he’s that vulnerable, time to go. He can serve the public in some other fashion, even from a university.
I don’t think the GOP will pick up as many seats as pundits “project”, based on past elections, since the GOP got us into this horrible mess and that fact has sunk in with many. (Why else would we have so many “independents” who sound like Republicans trying to duck their culpability in propping up Bush-Cheney?)
Sad to hear Dorgan faced such a tough battle for reelection. He’s a good one.
demkat620
@John Cole: Well, wasn’t that Grover Norquist’s advice?
I’m sure he has the Dems best interests at heart right?
Incertus
@BeccaM: We might be down to 58, and with a new Majority Leader. Reid’s not exactly lighting it up out in Nevada.
General Winfield Stuck
@John Cole:
Luckily, that is not going to happen and HCR will pass. But dems will still fight with one another, because that’s what they do. Rain/Shine Win/Lose, don’t matter much.
I remain impressed and pleased that congressional dems, despite little dustups here and there, are acting more adult than was expected, at least from me. The left blogosphere, that’s another story, unfortunately.
Being in the minority for 12 years seems to have enlightened our dem reps to what is possible when they burn their own House down with squabbling. How long that will last, nobody knows.
Ailuridae
@BeccaM:
First up, they’ll make the Bush tax cuts permanent.
I don’t take too kindly to people making things up out of whole cloth. So provide a link about this possibility, k?
John Cole
Where are you all getting this notion of God like power on Obama’s part? He can’t just go to Dodd and say “Time’s up. let someone else run.” He’s President, not the fricking Godfather.
This is something that has flummoxed me since day one of the Senate negotiations- many of you fail to realize the supreme size of the egos on Senators. Obama could push for whatever the fuck he wants, and many of them are just going to tell him to piss up a rope.
demkat620
@Incertus: I’d say 53 is looking more realistic now.
And boy won’t Tweety have a night?
“Just two years after riding high and taking office, the nation rebuked Barack Obama and the Democrats in congress and returned power to the GOP! What a night!”
Even a one seat loss will be spun as a compete rebuke to Obama. Can you imagine 7? And what a sigh of relief the Washington press corp will heave. It will be great for them to be back on ground they know so well. All will be right with the world.
danimal
I’ll get all contrarian on y’all and say that 59 votes is, in some ways, preferable to 60. It’s a tradeoff; the legislation has to be more centrist because it must attract at least 1 GOP vote. On the other hand, the huge free pass that the GOP currently enjoys disappears. Their obstructionism is the issue if they keep up their “party of no” ways.
Right now, the failure to pass a bill is the fault of the Dems for failing to keep the caucus together. As we’ve discovered, not all Dems are liberals, and some IndyDems are first class a$$es. In a 59/41 world, the story centers on the failure of a single Republican to cross party lines and support popular legislation. Harry Reid can force Republicans to make all kinds of unpopular votes along the “voted against funding the troops” line. The spotlight will shine in areas that the GOP would prefer remained in the dark.
cyntax
What is this the JCole answer to enhanced interrogation? What answer will get you to stop beating this dead horse into the ground?
Last I saw, FDL (Jon Walker, I think) had a post up evaluating what was good about the Senate bill and what was good about the House bill. Seems like they’ve moved on to discussing how to make the best possible sausage out of the ingredients at hand. Maybe you want to follow that lead?
Ya think?
The Populist
@demkat620:
Some of it is sarcasm some of it is fact. I will leave it to you to figure it out (hint: I believe we should be working with ME elements vs. bombing people).
Crazy talk right?
Ailuridae
@jwb:
You’re making things up clearly. The reasons there wasn’t a strong public option included in the Senate bill is that
John StewartBarack Obama didn’t have the willpower as he is not a true Green Lanternmcc
I’m not clear whether the ‘kill the bill’ movement is still a real thing. A lot of the people from that camp seem to be now moving the goalposts / be claiming where the goalposts are all along is that the House bill should be preferred over the Senate one (and the decision to use informal negotiations to merge the two bills does seem to put the House in a stronger negotiating position than a normal conference process would), a position which I think hardly anyone would find controversial.
HCAN, which I think has a strong claim to representing the “progressive” position within the health care debate, is running a petition and ad campaign (I’ve not seen the ads) right now trying to pull the bill-merging process to the left. I’m a bit confused by their messaging though. On the page where you send the petition, the only specific point of contention between the House and Senate bills they mention is the excise tax. But if you dig on the margins of the page there’s a “read the full letter” link that goes into more detail and specifically demands the public option somehow go back in while merging the bills. So if you sign the petition, which version actually gets sent to your Congressperson? The text that appears above the form while you’re actually filling the petition out? Or the “full version” with the additional demands? It’s actually even possible the “full version” might be some kind of outdated thing or error by the site staff, it refers to the passage of the Senate bill in the future tense.
SteveinSC
@John Cole: I’m for the HCR bill, I drank the Kool-Aid. Speaking of Kool Aid, any of you winos out there ever heard of the Norton/Cyntiana grape? Ever tasted it? An old cross from the 1840′ s once used to make “Virginia Claret.” Someone got a bottle from a little ort in West Tennessee. That shit was good and I speak as one who generally can’t stand California “Cabs” (vile affectation.) The Norton tastes like a soft Cotes du Rhone. According to the All-Knowing Web (peace be unto its name) the wine is reestablished in Virginia and, particularly, in Missouri. It is no Catawba or Scuppernong. Take a look at it at http://www.chrysaliswine.com look under varieties/norton for a list of vineyards across the country selling it.
Comrade Dread
Because over the past 220+ years, the President has been built up from chief diplomat and spokesperson of the Congress and US, into Big Daddy, War Leader, Pope Jr., Commander of us all, Holy Roman Emperor, and Eternal Grand Poobah to whom all, even Senators, must give their eternal allegiance and blow jobs to, lest you be declared a traitor, an enemy of the Republic, a malcontent, or an unserious dirty fucking hippie.
John Cole
The best thing about them losing Dorgan is that Lieberman is no longer important.
Also, losing 5-6 seats in the Senate and 20-40 in the House may make people think twice about not voting in 2012 and that maybe Obama and Reid and pelosi ain’t that bad after all.
Sanka
North Dakota Sen. Dorgan won’t seek re-election
Clearly, the
DemocraticRepublican party is in shamblesand the next two generations of Democratic party majority and progressivism (being that we’re a left of center nation and all) is clearly superior to the rump party called the GOPThe obvious solution here for Democrats is to
continue to shove government-mandated healthcare down the throats of the already finacially strapped middle class, then move on to cap-and-trade, because that will only help industry in this country, and continue to treat terrorists as if they were bank robberspush farther to the left.SteveinSC
Sorry, Cynthiana not Cyntiana.
Mayken
@The Populist: I disagree. We may have figured out that attempting to slaughter them by brute force alone was not the most efficient way to remove their threat against our “manifest destiny” but the breaking of treaties, forcing them onto reservations not of their choosing and a near cultural genocide continued well into the modern age. Just as one for instance, my ex-husband’s great-grandmother was one of the last native speakers of the Chumash language. Her children were all sent to English only schools and only one of her grandchildren has any connection to his native culture. Ironically he is now the tribal leader and largely responsible for bring Indian gaming to his Res.
Our record on dealing with native people’s is not a very good one in that we largely got them to stop killing us by finding new and creative ways to wipe them out, not because we found new and creative ways to get them to like us.
Silver Owl
The Senate bill still sucks given they did not have to cow tow to asshats in the name of “bipartisanship”. Which if they had even been paying attention for the last damn 15 years they would have known was horseshit. I still think the Senate delivered shit when they did not need to.
Anyways, It’s a bummer that we’ll be losing a person who understood that bankers and wall street would be assholes with no guidelines to live up to. Common sense is hard to find these days in the senate. Even more uncommon are those that understand human behavior regardless of title and stupid myths built on bullshit.
Maybe one day America will decide to stop dying for stupid shit and idiotic myths. It’s not Dorgan’s job to help America grow the hell up.
Mayken
@Mayken: Interesting, the word [email protected] gets you moderated? Good to know.
mcc
@danimal: I think the obvious rebuttal to this idea is, we had 58-59 votes most of last year and it wasn’t any better.
I think there may be some threshold where the effect you identify starts to kick in and all of a sudden the Democrats’ obstructionism charges start working (because all of a sudden it’s Republican obstructionism, and not Democratic intra-party obstructionism, which is holding things back), or where things get better just because the Democrats are suddenly willing to use tricks like reconciliation. It’s apparently not right at 59 though. I don’t know…
From a perspective of how stressful things are 60 votes though probably is a worst case scenario, it’s easy to prefer to have 58 or 62 even if 58 is worse than 60 from an objective perspective…
The Populist
@John Cole:
Agreed. People seem to have forgotten WHO put us in the dire straits we are currently in. The GOP policies were so one sided that all these out of work folks itching to put the party of no back in a position of power are being really shortsighted (and unfair).
How is it fair to punish the Dems for messes left by GOP deregulation and ridiculous tax cuts for the rich? I really do not understand people sometimes. Maybe critical thinking is truly dead :(
AhabTRuler
@mcc: Yeah, well, you try sharing a border with Germany, see how you like it.
Zuzu's Petals
So does anyone else imagine that Rove will reappear with a vengeance on the national scene in the next couple of election cycles?
I mean, now that he’s not saddled down with a marriage and all. I’m guessing his 2006 semi-retirement was his wife’s nonegotiable for saving the marriage.
Mayken
@Mayken: To clarify: I do agree that we need to find ways to work with the friendly elements of the wide Islamic world and find ways to make ourselves less of a target of hatred by the basic Muslim-on-the-street. I just don’t think there is anything in the way we dealt with Native Americans up to and including a lot of what we’ve done in the modern age that is a model for that. Except maybe [email protected] ;-)
Davis X. Machina
Dorgan is just punishing the Man for shooting down his drug-reimportation amendment.
He’s going Galt, but in a good, progressive way.
Now it’s time for all 9 Kossacks in ND to roll out a real Democrat — and watch him get beat into the ground like a tent-peg.
freelancer
I missed the group email that said OT’s are HCR threads. I’m such a fogey.
mcc
@AhabTRuler: Well… doesn’t sound so bad really, would put a lot of good live electronic music in driving distance.
nodakfarmboy
It’s never much fun being a Democrat in ND, but this REALLY sucks. Byron is about as progressive and populist a Senator as this state will ever hope to elect. Losing him is not only a loss for us, but the nation.
Looks like I chose the wrong night to quit drinking…
Leelee for Obama
@mcc: Just watched a program about this very thing. The Maginot Line was designed to fight a non-mechanized, no air power war that no longer existed. Typical of all military situations, I guess, fighting in old ways, although you’d think WW 1 would have shown the French the folly of that plan. It really was PR, to make the French people FEEL safe. That sounds a little too familiar, doesn’t it? Let’s face it, the only thing that brought peace to Western Europe was us. We bought and paid for it after WW 2, and it has lasted fairly well. I wonder if we should have spent the gazillions of dollars we’ve expended on all these wars on paying all the Muslim countries a living wage and they would have killed off any asshole among them who tried to fuck up a deal that sweet. To say nothing of all the human lives lost and misery we could have not caused.
Thoughts?
AhabTRuler
@mcc: Yeah, well now it’s easy. We all want to go to Germany now.
But, then? Sheesh, who’d want for the trouble?
mcc
@nodakfarmboy: Nate Silver suggests the leading dem pick to replace Byron is someone named “John Hoeven”. Do you have any thoughts on Hoeven (either in terms of his chances of running/winning, or in terms as what he’d do as a Senator)?
dr. luba
@Elizabelle:
On New Year’s Eve I ran into an old friend who used to be a vice president at Ford. Harvard MBA. Now working in WV running a replacement window factory. He stated that he’d considered the data, and was now a Democrat. He’d noted that, during the 90s, he did well and, since the Bush-Cheney revolution, he hadn’t. He put 2 and 2 together. Selfish, yes, but rational.
I wonder how many more there are like him.
dr. luba
@nodakfarmboy:
It seems, as I get older, that every night is the wrong night to quite drinking.
General Winfield Stuck
@Leelee for Obama:
No country was prepared for the new German Blitzkrieg type of warfare with modern tanks. The French are also notorious for poor basic war tactics. See Dien Bien Phu, building a base in a valley surrounded by hills with Viet Minh artillery shooting down on it.
minachica
@freelancer:
Don’t be too hard on yourself – it’s hard to be aware of all internet traditions.
danimal
@mcc: Yeah, I’d rather have the 60 votes myself. I’m just making the point that the optics and perceptions change in a world without 60 Dem votes. Unfortunately, that matters a lot to the Beltway folks, much more than the underlying policies. The bipartisan fetish runs strong in that area.
JGabriel
John Cole @ Top:
Are you kidding? That’s when you’re BEST.
.
TWP
@johncole So, if Lieberman had announced his retirement, would you be saying the same thing? Of course not. The fact that you go on and on and on about the DFHs that want a good HCR bill instead of a crappy one is increasingly pathetic.
mistermix
I grew up in South Dakota, and the town where I lived got North Dakota TV, so I’m quite familiar with Byron Dorgan.
He might be more progressive than Conrad, but as a politician, he is a class-A, #1, gutless wonder.
In 1986, Kent Conrad, who is a much better politician, came from a job as the State’s Insurance Commissioner (don’t ask me why, but it launched both Dorgan and Conrad’s career) to beat incumbent Republican Mark Andrews. Andrews had tons of cash, but he was vulnerable as an out-of-touch rich asshole. At the time, Dorgan was the at-large Representative, and he could have probably beat Andrews, but he didn’t even try.
Instead, old Byron sat around and waited for Quentin Burdick to die, which he did in 1992. Then Byron got that seat in an open election.
Byron’s won all his elections by landslide margins. He’s the only human being with a chance to beat Hoeven. But he won’t even fucking try. That just kills me.
In the Dakotas, Daschle didn’t quit. McGovern didn’t quit. They both went down fighting. But brave Byron just runs away.
Leelee for Obama
@General Winfield Stuck: Did they study the Charge of the Light Brigade before they made that decision?
The program I watched was very informative, and while the Blitzkreig was brutal and new, the Maginot line was designed for infantry and cavalry, at least that was the gist. That sort of fortification would have been overrun by almost any mechanized cavalry and the air power made it completely useless. They did know about planes and tanks, right?
Mo's Bike Shop
Agree with Cyntax, Kill the Bill was so last month.
It’s one of the reasons ‘progressive’ has more cachet than ‘liberal’ of late. A lot of us are people who would much prefer that something actually useful be done. I’m not sure if this is gonna be even close to useful.
I’m going to have to listen to bozos tell me about how Government Healthcare is ruining us, when the bill is largely a lobbyist wish list.
Fun being a Democrat.
General Winfield Stuck
@Leelee for Obama:
You were right about countries always planning for the last war. basically, why the Maginot Line failed.
nodakfarmboy
@mistermix: To be fair, Byron is pushing 68. As shocking as it might sound, some people do enjoy the thought of retirement.
We like to crack jokes about ancient Senators like Strom Thurmond and Robert Byrd staying in office until they carry them out in a coffin. You might call Dorgan gutless, but it is slightly refreshing to see someone walk away on their own terms, to embrace retirement at a reasonable age.
That said, I am still terribly disappointed at the news.
Nodakfarmboy +1
Elie
@The Populist:
Oh you are so hopeful about the human midbrain!
We are aggressive, deeply instinctive animals, beneath a light scratch of the superficial qualities of the thinking ape. Our brains and the emotions wired to it, was built over old, very reptilian and territorial structures around securing our food, territory and mates. At every opportunity, we avoid and ignore if not punish, higher cerebral input on that midbrain…input that actually does change our desire to beat our fellow apes into jelly and snatch their women, food and territory.
Unless you do a mass mid brain craniotomy on 6 billion humans, we have to learn how to live with our shit and try to change it (very hard) over the next few millenia. Mostly, we will probably blow the planet up with our bullshit way before then…
Chuck Butcher
@Leelee for Obama:
Oh hell, big surprise. Take a look at WWI in the light of the American Civil War. The book was written in the blood of many thousands of Americans per day and rated not a European glance.
Leelee for Obama
@Elie: And just when I thought things might be looking up! Elie, it scares the crap out of me that you are probably right!
Elizabelle
Good to hear, dr. luba. I think there are a lot of people like your friend. The conventional wisdom is just that and we live in unconventional times.
Discussion request: anybody else gagged over David Brooks’ column today on “Tea Party Teens?” (Extra points for identifying the “polls” Brooks used and what they said; he does neither but seems to cherry-pick. Being David Brooks.)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/05/opinion/05brooks.html?hp
Did he pick up this intelligence at Applebee’s salad bar?
IS the Tea Party full of teens, or appealing to them? News to me. I thought they were all “hands off my Medicare” and “get off my lawn” types.
glocksman
@mcc:
Oh, it’s real enough at least in my union local if the Senate’s ‘fuck the unions’ funding mechanism stays in place.
As I’ve said before, I don’t make that damn much money ($13/hr) but I do have really decent health insurance and I don’t want to lose it because Lieberdouche and that bitch from Louisiana think that a tax hike for those making over $500k is ‘unacceptable’ while taxing some schlub who doesn’t even make a tenth of that income but has a union negotiated benefit is hunky-dory.
I’m more than willing to see across the board tax hikes as an alternative because then everyone is sacrificing, but if I wanted my health insurance taxed while the wealthy skated away, I would have voted for Walnuts and Governor Mooseburger.
If the funding mechanism isn’t fixed, I will both register vocal opposition* and I won’t do any of the GOTV work or donate cash like I did in 2008.
*Because I’m a pessimist, I have the letter already composed and ready to go. All I have to do is print up four copies and send them off
Leelee for Obama
@Chuck Butcher: Yeah, humankind always figures out a better way to destroy some of its members doesn’t it. Considering the gattling gun, and Sherman’s Total War in Georgia, and the numbers lost in one day battles all through the Civil War, I have to say, the military leaders in WW 1 certainly should have been better prepared for what happened and certainly, WW 2 should have been anticipated in far better ways.
mistermix
@nodakfarmboy: A farmboy like you should know that 68 is just getting started when you’re from the Dakotas. Byron chickened out, plain and simple.
Chuck Butcher
@Elie:
Oh horse shit, after centuries of escalating slaughter we have spent a half century pissing around at warfare. I don’t propose that we’re fast learners, but this kind of crapolla is brought to bear simply for its depressing content.
Glidwrith
Can I mention I just got back from visiting the relatives and that they have gone full bore wingnut? They handed me a copy of Bible Spice’s book, solemnly assuring me that I would have a better idea of how the election went down if I read it. I was then told of their hope that she runs for President in 2012. Finally, they are afraid that some popular person with no understanding of government will get into office and sign bills into laws that will destroy the country. I was speechless and may be scarred for life./rant
Elie
@Leelee for Obama:
Well, there is always an asteroid that can buy us time to evolve our brains by annhialating say, 5.5 billion of the 6
Mother Nature is not emotional about this. We are just animals. No better or worse either. When we overgrow, we and our effects will be balanced in some way. I dont find that depressing. Actually, I find it strangely reasurring.
AhabTRuler
I’ve though of submitting a proposal for weapons made entirely of money. Using an assortment of coins and notes, you can create a entire series of weapons that will allow you to buy off anyone who isn’t killed.
Need to take out a wedding-party? Just use the CBU-24k, which deploys 20,000 limited-edition, anti-personnel gold coins, displaying George Bush in his flightsuit on the obverse, and the smoking ruin of the Twin Towers on the reverse!
Trying to smoke them out of there holes? Why not “make it rain” with the BLU-001, dispensing one million dollar bills in a lethel cloud 100 meters across!
Hell, you can just drop pallets of shrink-wrapped money (US dollars only! OK, Euros too, but don’t tell anyone) of the backs of C-130s, it’s gotta be cheaper than what we got now!
Bad Horse's Filly
@John Cole:
Now there’s an image that I can get behind. Obama as The Godfather, cotton ball cheeks and all.
Chuck Butcher
@Leelee for Obama:
When we engage in problem solving we generally get better at it, whether that’s killing people, a better mouse trap, or non-oil power. Dogma is the enemy.
jwb
@demkat620: According to historical trends, the Dems need to lose at least 8 if Obama is to be reelected (FDR and Clinton each lost 8; Truman lost even more). If he only loses 3, like Johnson and Carter, then he’s toast.
Tsulagi
@Leelee for Obama:
The Maginot Line was foisted onto the French military by really smart civilian leadership and the defense contractors they were buddies with. Military commanders like De Gaulle argued at the time they’d be far better served to counter the growing German threat with mechanized armor divisions that could be fielded at a fraction of the ML cost.
Hmm, guess kinda like civilian leadership such as Baucus and others with their big insurance buddies, and the WH feel-the-love deal with PhRMA. Only good things happen when politicians take care of their buddies.
Leelee for Obama
@Chuck Butcher
This! Like I said above, and Ahab did more colorfully, pay them off. It’s cheaper, less destructive and gives the appearance , if not the actuality, of our understanding the problems of other people. Of course, it would be great if we did that same kind of thing here at home.
Elizabelle
Glidwirth: Margaret and Helen, elderly curmudgeons with a blog, take on “Going Rogue.” Helen writes better than Mrs. Palin, her ghost writer, and most people.
” …I guess there’s not much to do on cold nights in Alaska except watching out for Russians and wooing Palins.”
http://margaretandhelen.wordpress.com/2009/12/07/going-rogue-without-a-condom/
MikeJ
@AhabTRuler:
I doubt that. 2000lb iron bombs are pretty cheap. According to the Grauniad, when we sent cash into Iraq we sent, “in the year after the invasion of Iraq in 2003 nearly 281 million notes, weighing 363 tonnes.” Those notes were US$100s, but even using ones I think bombs are cheaper.
Ailuridae
@Tsulagi:
Tortured analogies for $1000, Alex!
The Populist
@dr. luba:
Count me as one. I made money in the 90s. I make a lot of money now but it was Clinton’s policies that helped me to do well. Bush and the GOP care not one WIT about us common folks. When I hear one of my dumb GOP friends whine how they did well under Bush I laugh knowing they pulled in maybe 80K a year running a small business. I laugh harder knowing this maroon is paying to support billionaires via an increased tax burden. The wars, the debt, the collapse all fall hard on people in the 99% who don’t make more than 200K a year.
The kicker is a friend of mine who hates liberals and loves Glenn Beck and St Ronnie tells me how bad the Dems are. He can’t really put his finger on why but it’s always the same mantra…taxes. I ask him repeatedly why he is for watching his middle class kids pay for people like him (he pulls in half a mil per year selling to the medical industry). So basically he gets a tax break and the rest of us pay more in local, state and federal taxes so he can keep more of his money?
Selfish is all I can say. One day the teabaggers who call themselves “independent” will wake up to realize that the system is not friendly to people who work hard to put food on the table. It is unfair to small business people who don’t have the deep pockets to weather the typical move of pricing a small competitor out of the market. Capitalism once worked well in this country and now these idiots got the chance to deregulate and show us how it will improve our lives. IT FAILED. Bring back regulations to keep markets FAIR.
mcc
I think I’m going to write a perl script that generates sentences by randomly combining the words “Baucus”, “PhRMA”, “obama”, “shit”, “shitty”, “shit sandwich”, “cost control”, “drug reimportation”, and “joe lieberman” and and see if it can pass itself off as a blog commenter
Corner Stone
@nodakfarmboy:
Bullshit. 1 will get you 10 that he’s a lobbyist scoring the fat cash for the next 10+ years.
He isn’t going away, he’s going to the Promised Land.
Ailuridae
@mcc:
It would be more robust if written in Python and the code would be easier to follow. But, clearly it would work in either. Imagonna check CPAN and see if there already is one
ellaesther
Ok, I have a rule on the tubez: Don’t read comments.
With but three or four exceptions (she said, commenting), there is nothing but heartache and heartburn to be gained from such an endeavor.
But occasionally, very occasionally, a comment will sneak past my defenses and AHHHHHHHHHHH! I will have read it! AHHHHHHHHHHH!
So what happened was I went “Dorgan? Who’s Dorgan? doo-di-doo, I’ll go see what Mr. Google tells me!” and clicked on the first article, which happens to be the Houston Chronicle for some reason, and the first comment is, like, three nano-meters from the bottom of the story. So my eyes betray me and before I can stop them THEY’VE READ IT!!!
It will surprise no one here to learn that according to “El_Liberal_Tardo” (whose avatar is a mash-up between the “What, me worry?” guy from Mad Magazine and the President of the United States), this is “the most inept administration in the history of America.”
WHY, EYES? WHY?! WHY DO YOU HATE ME SO?!?
Sigh.
AhabTRuler
$3,000 bucks, according to wikipedia, but the JDAM package adds $35,000-70,000 to the price tag.
And you don’t hang ’em on your Schwinn ten-speed, either.
Tsulagi
@Ailuridae: Glad you liked it. Kinda works, though. Maybe they can rename this crap the Maginot Line HCR Act. Or Appalachian Trail if still going for that bipartisanyship. Might get Joe Wilson to walk with that.
Elie
@Chuck Butcher:
Aww Pshaw!!! Warfare? We are way beyond just that taking us out, having tampered with and poisoned a fair amount of our environment trying to make ourselves rich…Or shitting where we eat, as we don’t choose to use our cerebral cortex to limit our numbers and therefore keep our water, air and food safe..
…And, the other life forms, the bacteria and viruses and such are digging what we are doing too..Many new opportunities for them as we continue to disturb our home
We are closer to the anonymous dying colonies of overpopulated bacteria on a petri dish than the upright and proud naked apes swinging leg bones…
I am not totally pessimistic either. Just calling us what we are. All change for the better starts with an honest appraisal of where you are. That’s mine
ellaesther
@ellaesther: Wow. That’s way too much information about one stupid comment.
And yet I will not delete! I cannot bear this pain alone!
mcc
@Ailuridae: The way I look at it, if something’s worth doing right, do it in python. Otherwise perl
MikeJ
No. You can write bad code in any language. You can write great code in perl, just as you can in python. You just have to know what you’re doing.
mcc
You can’t write bad code in Malbolge.
Corner Stone
Le sigh.
AhabTRuler
Anyway, my point is, don’t be too hard on the French – they weren’t the only country that was poorly prepared for the start of WW II, they were just one of the ones that shared a border with Germany.
Oh, and don’t forget about Poland.
Ailuridae
@Tsulagi:
No, its a horrible analogy as none of the key parts actually have analogues.
Ailuridae
@MikeJ:
CPAN tells a different story. ;-p
ajr22
@The Populist: It amazes me that someone can be intelligent enough to make a good living, yet be dumb enough to watch Beck.
Leelee for Obama
@ajr22: Olbermann has been fan-f’ing-tastic tonight-if you aren’t’ listening to it now, catch it later. You’ll enjoy it! I like this new schtick-a couple short comments every night.
ellaesther
In the spirit of this being an open thread, I want to do some shameless blog pimping, in order (actually) to pimp for a couple of really good books that I think might interest some of the folks here: The Arabs by Eugene Rogan and City of Gold: Dubai and the Dream of Capitalism by Jim Krane. Both are really, truly excellent.
Not that that has anything to do with HCR or the fact that the Democratic Party is shedding Congresspeople like dandruff flakes, BUT IT’S AN OPEN THREAD!
MikeJ
@Ailuridae: People who write in English are much more likely to write on the level of Dan Brown than that of Shakespeare. Which doesn’t make English a lousy language.
I have read (and even written) plenty of lousy python. Some of the best code I’ve ever seen was in perl. Of course it was in idiomatic perl. If you know the language well it was clear, concise, easy to read. And if you don’t it looks like line noise.
If you’re poking around on cpan, the Acme namespace seems to have many examples of “very clear and clever if you know the language”, but jokes almost get the most love put into them.
Health Care Hell
The industry lobbyists have spent money like drunken sailors to make sure we get as little true reform as possible. Now the health insurance industry is going all out to kill whatever DOES get passsed. Maybe when we reach 75 or 100 million people without health insurance in this country we’ll finally realize – the Health Insurance Companys are the number one obstacle to us having a sane system of health care in this country. How pissed off do we all have to get before we’re willing to tell them to go to hell and figure out a way to actually FORCE the change the system needs?
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/01/05/constitutionality-health-reform/
Mayken
@Glidwrith: Ugh! Sorry to hear that.
My brother has been slowly coming out of the wilderness of wingnuttery over the last couple of years, thanks gods. He even said to me the other day, “why didn’t we just push for Medicare for all like Ted Kennedy proposed?” I had to pick my jaw up off the floor.
May your family come around to sanity before they do too much brain damage. To you or themselves.
asiangrrlMN
Since this is an open thread, I am gonna follow ellaesther’s example and shamelessly pimp…Taiwan food set on Flickr, for those who refuse to use Facebook. I posted it in the above thread as well, but I’m feeling reckless today, so I’m just going to leave it here, too.
Enjoy.
@Glidwrith: Shit. I’m glad you made it back out alive.
ajr22
@Leelee for Obama: I’ll try to catch it after the Iowa game. Olbermanns new schtick or mine haha?
AhabTRuler
@asiangrrlMN: I’ll call, with a cutie-pie kitten who’s trying to hypnotize you into falling for him.
Mayken
@ajr22: Yeah, unfortunately one of the smartest guys I’ve every worked with (a network engineer who really is freakin’ brilliant) is a Fox-watching, NRA-card carrying, immigrant bashing, McCarthy-worshiping god-botherer. I really, really just don’t get it.
asiangrrlMN
@AhabTRuler: He doesn’t have to try so hard. I love him so much, my own boys are beginning to grumble.
@Mayken: Smart does not mean intelligent, in my humble opinion. When someone is really, really, really smart, he can convince himself of just about anything.
Julia Grey
Shut the Christian right up …
This reminds me of the old joke about making T-Rex Stew.
“First, shoot a T-Rex…”
Ailuridae
@Health Care Hell:
Facts are inconvenient things but the primary source of health care costs and the increase in health care costs does not lie withing the health care industry. While allowing a public option or expanding Medicare to anyone who desired it at cost would certainly slow the rate of growth of medical spending (and be a far more just system given the demand for an individual mandate) it still wouldn’t bring it below inflation or even to the levels of increases of the most bloated of other industrialized nations.
ajr22
@Mayken:”NRA-card carrying, immigrant bashing, McCarthy-worshiping” These are all things I disagree with, however I can understand how a smart person can believe in them. Being smart does not exclude you from being a racist. I still need answers as to how anyone with a decent IQ can watch Beck. What goes through their head? “Well Krugman won the librul nobel prize in economics, but ill listen to the guy who didn’t graduate college, was an alcoholic, and wrote a picture book.”
RedKitten
Anybody watching the World Juniors Hockey game? It’s completely fraying my nerves…
Mayken
@ajr22: Ah, should have clarified that he started out as a Ditto-head then moved on to the Beck Tear-Watch. I thought that was implied…
CalD
I’m eagerly waiting an explanation from Jane d’Arc about why this is good news for Progressives.
Mayken
@asiangrrlMN: A very good point.
pcbedamned
@RedKitten:
Goin’ into OT. At that second goal I was on my knees with son (12) looking at me as if I had lost my head!!!!
GO CANADA!!!!
(sorry Yanks, I’m not anti-American; I am PRO-CANADIAN!!! :-)
pcbedamned
@pcbedamned:
I now has a sad :(
Good game Yanks, and Congrats…
(now off to sulk)
SIA aka ScreamingInAtlanta
@Zuzu’s Petals: I don’t think so. He has a whiff of 3-day dead loser about him now that I don’t think is going away.
matoko_chan
Pfft.
HCR will pass, and then we will be on to immigration reform in an election year.
The teabaggers will switch from rage-raving on Obamacare to rage-raving on Obamnesty.
I fully expect that the teabaggers will so destroy the conservative brand with latinos and hispanics that even Mario Rubio will switch parties. Plus think of how entertaining it will be to watch conservative leadership trying to hispander the electorate while their consituency chews them all new assholes….it will be like the Sotomeyer hearings raised by an order of magnitude.
Chuck Butcher
Oh hell, I’ll pimp this just because Fox stupidity so pleases me.
Ailuridae
@matoko_chan:
That’s my first encounter with ‘hispander’. I like it
matoko_chan
sigh…..
lol, that aint gonna happen. Iran will remain an islamic republic, just like Iraq is an islamic republic….the Iraqis voted shariah law into their constitution.
US foreign policy over the last halfcentury has made MENA (Middle East North Africa) into a reaver factory with an infinite supply of spare parts.
“Enduring Freedom”, lol.
Welcome to the Graveyard of Empires…..1574 served and counting.
OriGuy
@ellaesther: The comments at any newspaper website are the worst. There’s hardly ever any information pertinent to the story, whether it’s local or national. Crime stories almost always draw the racists, for example, unless it’s white-on-white. I’ve gotten sucked in too, and wished I hadn’t.
Chuck Butcher
Where the hell does anybody get the idea what is going on in Iran is a dispute about anything other than a version of theocracy? Because the Republicans like it? WTF?
I just laughed at this idea the other day on my blog and to see it repeated on BJ is astonishing.
Brachiator
@matoko_chan:
RE: hope that the Iranian students overthrow the Mullahs
Really? How can you be so sure? It wasn’t too long ago that Balloon Juice posters were predicting that all of the Iranian protests would be quickly snuffed out by the Iranian government, as part of the standard issue pseudo-liberal isolationism.
And let’s see. Iraq is a cobbled together nation with Sunni and Shia vying against each other and against the Kurds, with marginalized groups like the Chaldeans kicked to the curb. Iranians are overwhelmingly Shia, but they have a deep sense of their history as a Persian people, an identity which pre-dates Islam. So to talk about their having voted “shariah law” into their constitution doesn’t really say too much.
Actually, it doesn’t say anything at all.
Odd, then, isn’t it, that Iranians themselves often bristle more over the long years of British rule and interference than over more recent US foreign policy. But Americans, right and left, tend to have an overly exalted sense of US influence in world affairs.
As an aside, although almost anyone can be elected head of state in India, Pakistan reserves its presidency to Muslims. The same is obviously the case in Iran and other Islamic nations. This kind of underscores how much of what happens politically in Islamic nations has absolutely nothing to do with a reaction to US or even Western intervention in the past, but with how Muslims view themselves and their sense of national identity and destiny.
For bonus points, see Aurangzeb, a hero to many Islamic fundamentalists.
Had he not been so inflexible and despotic, later Islamic rulers in India might have been able to rally the Islamic and Hindu peoples to oppose the British.
burnspbesq
@ellaesther:
So who said you have to?
Ed Marshall
@Tsulagi:
I’ve got to defend the honor of the Maginot Line here. The Maginot Line did *exactly* what it was supposed to do. It was there to force the Germans around it and into a battlefield of French choice. That’s exactly what it did. It was never challenged.
What was supposed to happen is that after the Germans were forced around it, they were to be crushed by French armor and *that’s* where things got fucked. The French weren’t surprised that it happened, they were surprised *when* it happened and they managed to fuck up the plan. Over and over again the wehrmacht should have been toast but the armor was out of ammunition or communications was broken or some other bit of either bad luck or stupidity.
Et Tu Brutus?
Watched John Woo’s “Red Cliff” , the 4.5 hour version yesterday, superb through and through. By far the best art house martial arts movie I’ve yet seen.
Sentient Puddle
Reminder for all those interested: I’m attempting to get a Balloon Juice guild together in WoW. Currently horde side on Eitirgg, though that’s subject to change if/when we get enough people together. My character’s name is Mazog, so feel free to send me a whisper if you see me on. I wasn’t on tonight because I was bloody exhausted, but I’ll be on tomorrow evening trying to get some more to sign a charter.
The Original Francis
As i’m (a) currently unemployed and (b) a [solo] computer game player going way back, please explain to me this WoW. What’s it like? How expensive?
please note: I tried the free online game Evony, which was advertised here for ages, and frankly i thought watching paint dry would have been more exciting.
matoko_chan
@Brachiator:
The regime of the Khamenei junta will be overthrown, just as the American puppet-tyrant Shah, the killer of students, was overthrown…but that does not mean a student coup to install a western “democracy”.
Since you are into history, learn the lesson the Ummayyads learned from the Shi’ia….
–Husayn ibn Ali, the Imam of Imams at the plain of Karbala.
The Ummayyads are dust…the Shi’ia are many.
The 1979 Islamic Revolution was a direct consequence of Operation Ajax where the CIA deposed Mossadegh and installed the Shah.
You sound a lot like Captain Stupid (Ed Morrissey)
lol, modernity and human rights? Under the American Tyrant-puppet Shah, the killer of students and oppressor of the people?
Neda Agha Sultan and the Green Wave were/are demonstrating for a return to the rule of law, islamic law in an islamic republic.
The protests originated around the disruption of the lawful counting of votes for approved candidates as specified in the Iranian constitution.
If you believe (like Ed seems to), that the “mullahcracy” will be overthrown by a student coup that installs a western style “democracy” you are insane. This is not going to happen.
Rafsanjani has for years been quietly promoting the idea of a council of three to replace the singular position of Supreme Ayatollah.
But all three will be “mullahs”…the constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran specifies two criteria for the position of Supreme Leader– to be a seyyed, of the line of the Imam, and to be an islamic scholar and jurist.
Iran will remain an islamic republic, just like Iraq is an islamic state with shariah law written into its constitution.
If muslims can vote, they will vote for shariah.
bi la kaifa
Ed Marshall
You are mixing up Dune and that article you read last week about Ashura to make some bold predictions there. Not to take away from Captain Ed being an idiot or anything, but the viewpoint you have sketched out doesn’t sound like anyone that I’ve ever heard of from Iran.
It would be like if all hell broke loose over here and we went to Civil War II and some Persian started telling his friends about how the people were angry that Michael Bloomberg wasn’t president because he reads a bunch of militant, centrist, Broderist sort of things in the U.S. Press.
Nobody wants a triumvirate Supreme Leader other than Rafsanjani and his circle of cronies. Not the kids in the street, not the opposition, not the people staying home.
Andy K
@Leelee for Obama:
I’m not going to take the time to see if anyone else has said this: The Maginot Line didn’t work because the Wehrmacht went around it.
The series of forts that was the Maginot Line ran only along the French-German border. The Wehrmacht just swung through Belgium, north of the Maginot Line’s left flank. The Germans severed the British Expeditionary Force from the French Army, forcing the Brits to retreat to Dunkirk; the Germans then moved south, then finally swung back to the east, where they took the Maginot Line from the rear, where it was barely defended.
And it was built to fight tanks, and was pretty safe from airplanes as well.
rachel
@Andy K:
The French should have been expecting that because the Germans invaded through the low countries the first time (WWI), too.
matoko_chan
@Ed Marshall:
Bullshit, you ignorant troglodyte.
FYI im a sufi revert.
Mir Husain Mousavi–
What do the students chant in the street?
Yah Husain, Mir Husain
that is Help us Husain (Imam Ali of Ashura) , Mir Husain (Mir Husain Mousavi)
What are the nighttime rooftop chants?
Allahu Akbar
There is no difference between you and Captain Stupid, Marshall.
You share the same first name as well as the submedian IQ.
matoko_chan
Do you know what Student’s Day commemorates in Iran, Ed Marshall?
A day when the American puppet-tyrant Shah’s goons cracked student heads and murdered 3 unarmed students at Tehran Uni to suppress protests in advance of Nixon’s visit.
You need to get over the idea that any citizen of MENA wants anything to do with “democracy”.
America has made “democracy” into a dirty word in MENA.
If you listen to Obama’s Cairo speech, notice he NEVER says democracy.
“Democracy” is a teabagger word now, like “freedom”…just another part of Palin’s cream of eagle-word soup mix.
matoko_chan
And yes, Herbert used a lot of arabic in the Dune Cycle.
bi la kaifa is actually a medlevi sufi saying, meaning… it is understood.
I guess I should have added …..by people that are not retards.
Jay
Now that he’s retiring I guess “fix it later” folks have to decide if they want this bill as the final one or ditch it and try again. As this bill will kill the Dems in the near future I imagine the “fix it later” crowd will want to keep it since they have zero idea about politics.
Sentient Puddle
@The Original Francis: Take any RPG you’ve played, and imagine that, but with other f’real people playing and adventuring in the world. That’s essentially what it’s like. Not much to go on, but honestly, I can’t really describe the appeal. It’s like doing something with friends vs. doing the same thing alone.
On the other hand, if you’re unemployed, might be best to stay away because (a) there’s a monthly fee of $15, and (b) it’s a good way to stay unemployed if you get addicted.
Brachiator
@matoko_chan:
That’s odd. I never said that a student coup would lead to the installation of a western democracy.
You clearly did not understand the significance of my earlier post. “History” is not simplistically predictive or deterministic. And Westerners, particularly Americans, are hung up on the idea that everything that happens in Iraq and Iran today is a direct consequence of something that the US did. This is stoopid and a waste of time.
Nonsensical oversimplification. For example, the British suckered the US into meddling in Iranian affairs, (much as the French suckered the US into involvement into Southeast Asia).
Ironically, US President Eisenhower, who warned about the military industrial complex, got played by British and American oil and military interests.
No. I sound like me, someone who has had the privilege of living in the region and listening and learning from people in the region.
There was a time when an observer of Europe might have concluded that perpetual war between Protestants and Catholics was the inevitable fate of all the countries in the region.
Didn’t quite work out that way, did it?
As I noted before (and which can be seen as a subtext in Marjane Satrapi’s excellent graphic novel, Persepolis), Iranians don’t see themselves simply as vehicles for shariah law, or pawns of America.
matoko_chan
My argument with you is that the Green Wave began as a protest against violations of ISLAMIC LAW in an ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.
That is a stupid bs strawman.
You said–
That is bs, I quoted Mousavi, I quoted the students, i quoted the people at home who are calling from the rooftops. My point being Iran will remain a theocracy, an Islamic state ruled by a religious hierarchy.
When muslims can vote they will vote for shariah….this happened in Iran, this happened in Iraq.
And yes…..don’t you think that the shape of MENA has been determined by the actions of Big White Christian Bwana? Being fooled into going along is some sort of excuse for America?
That makes it ok?
We built the reaver factory, and we are still supplying the spare parts.
Can’t win hearts and minds when the hearts and minds of extended kingroups are splattered all over the landscape by predator drones.
matoko_chan
And I’ve read Persepolis..that is what you base your analysis on?
A manga published nearly a decade before the rising of the Sea of Green?
retard.
Brachiator
@matoko_chan:
And, so?
You misuse the term, and clearly misunderstood my reference.
You are either confusing me with someone else, or are attempting to reply to multiple individuals in a single post, and are getting confused.
You are not a crystal ball. Worse, your quotes can’t mask your lack of knowledge of the region.
Which means what?
You’re still stuck on the idea that the world turns by the evil actions of the US and the US alone.
The Iranians, like any other people, can spread grievance around with lots of historical examples. As I noted earlier, the Brits were loathed enemies before the US, and are making a comeback (Why Iran hates Britain so much) in the hatred sweepstakes.
The background for the CIA coup was Britain’s rapacious desire to continue to control the region’s oil wealth. This doesn’t let the US off the hook, but it makes the US more the ignorant lapdog of wider interests.
What does this have to do with Iran? And even here, things are more complicated. Pakistan scolded Secretary of State Clinton about predator drones even while assisting the US in targeting the drones and threatening to cozy up more with China if the US cut back on military aid.
In short, the Pakistnis could make big points standing up to the US, a Clinton, and a woman by pretending to care about the slaughter caused by predator drones. Nobody much cares about hearts and minds in this game. But neither does this regime, or others, really care about any fealty to Islamic law.
I sometimes make reference to something easily familiar, or easy to reference for anyone in a thread. And if you think that Persepolis is just a manga, you read it but didn’t understand it. I could just as easily referred to The Persian Empire, by Lindsay Allen; or A History of Iran: Empire of the Mind, by Michael Axworthy; or Con Coughlan’s Khomeini’s Ghost: Iran Since 1979; or Ervand Abrahamian’s A History of Modern Iran; or any of the books mentioned here.
You need to bring more to the table before you deal out insults. A lot more.
matoko_chan
/sigh
I’m a muslim.
You know nothing about the line of the Imam, Ashura, the battle of Karbala, Islamic history.
The Islamic Republic of Iran is going to remain an Islamic republic governed by islamic law.
Big White Christian Bwana has been meddling in MENA for centuries.
Colonialism, imperialism, missionarism, Operation Ajax, Gulf I, Gulf II, Enduring Freedom.
Just because the US got tricked into it doesnt absolve us.
Some of what has happened is the DIRECT cause of American actions.
The origin of Students Day was the murder of Tehran Uni students to suppress protests in advance of Nixons visit. The embassy hostages were taken by students after Carter gave asylum to the Shah….so that America could not restore the Shah to power.
300,000 Iraqi civilians died in the Grand Misadventure of the Manifest Destiny of Judeo-xian Democracy in mena. At the height of sectarian violence the Iraqis had a 9/11 every week on a population of 31 million. The Iraqis made a national holiday of the day American troops left their cities. And the Iraqis freely wrote shariah law into their constitution.
I dont understand your argument….that America wasn’t as bad as the Brits? MENA hates us ALL with good reason.
We helped sow the dragons teeth of terrorism.
What good is pretending we didnt?
matoko_chan
im sorry for calling you a retard.
in my grad school the person that results to insults first looses the argument.
How about we have a bet instead?
I bet ….that Khamenei’s junta will be overthrown within one year from the date of Neda Agha Sultan’s martyrdom, and that the position of Supreme Ayatollah will be replaced in the Iranian constitution by a council of three seyyeds who are also islamic jurists.
kk?