Here is a link to an ActBlue thread I just created for Martha Coakley. Spread the word, throw it up on your blog, and email me and I will send you the thermometer code. I set up a goal of 10k, which should not be hard if we can get a bunch of blogs to put it up.
I left my wallet at the damned office and will kick in $50 tomorrow. I know people think this seat is a safe Democratic seat, but no seat is safe in special elections because of turnout, and it looks like the better part of the liberal blogosphere has seriously lost the plot at this point, so we better start somewhere. And soon.
demkat620
How many threads have you put up since you quit?
Can you quit everyday?
bayville
Fuckin’ hilarious!
How was the vacation?
Annie
@bayville:
Really LOL…..
KDP
Alright, $50 donated, but I do wish ActBlue took Paypal.
And….
Go Galt already. Sheesh!
Dr. I. F. Stone
This “possibility” of total unknown Brown taking the Kennedy seat in totally blue Massachusetts is hype being generated by FOX News. There’s no way in Hell that a Republican will prevail in this race!
swamptroll
this is for you, ‘Rickson.
General Winfield Stuck
I still think it’s a safe sear, but I also think sounding the alarm bells to wake up dem voters in Mass is a safe bet.
valdivia
Pardon the ignorance but isn’t ActBlue controlled by Hamsher or something? Why not donate directly to the candidate?
El Tiburon
Now you are using your blog for the Power of Good.
See, that wasn’t so hard, was it?
CaseyL
@Dr. I. F. Stone: He’s polling less than 5 points back. Repeatedly. And that’s with a 3rd Party Libertarian pulling away some RW votes.
bayville
Cole should go home now. You can’t top this piece of comedic gold.
Leave ’em laughin’.
John Cole
I can’t go galt. I’m sitting here with two computers, both editing video, and don’t have any processor speed or RAM left to do anything but surf the net, and I need to keep an eye on this shit.
slag
Leadership! John Cole displays it. Hell, I’ll toss in some ducats just for that.
General Winfield Stuck
@John Cole:
That’s OK!, you’re just going Galt in a different direction.
beltane
Good to see this here. The ActBlue link is conspicuously absent elsewhere.
BruceFromOhio
Gotcha covered.
OK, since you asked so nicely.
BruceFromOhio
@valdivia:
Well, yes, but … um.. well, check this out first and then take a look here.
TooManyJens
Best. Break. Ever.
(Yes, I’m kicking in.)
Davis X. Machina
I expect every real Democrat to do the progressive thing, and vote for Brown.
This will help to kill the Worst Bill Ever — after all Brown pledged to filibuster it, and Coakley to vote in favor of cloture on it.
Coakely wins, the Worst Bill Ever passes. This will cause a massive backlash against House and Senate Democrats in 2010, and the loss of the White House in 2012.
So the only way to preserve the Democratic majority in Congress, and to give Obama a second term, is to vote for a Republican for the Senate — from the most Democratic state in the country.
QED.
(I don’t actually believe this for a second, but the fact that a.) such an argument even occurred to me, and b.) that there quarters — and I’m not talking Red State — where such an argument would be warmly received, tells you how just how crazy things have gotten.)
drew42
I’m going to sell back Dragon Age Origins tomorrow. Whatever I get for it will go to Coakley.
KCinDC
Fortunately our ACORN agents are hard at work stealing a state senate special election in northern Virginia. Religious right wacko Ken Cuccinelli left his seat open when, sadly, he was elected AG in November. No it looks like the Democrats have managed to win it, increasing their narrow majority in the state senate from 21-19 to 22-18. And the senate is the only thing preventing total Republican domination of the state, with the GOP in control of gov, lt gov, AG, and house of delegates.
valdivia
@BruceFromOhio:
I am happy to donate through them (though I did earlier today directly to her). I am asking simply because I read in a couple of other blogs and I am not sure that this isn’t totally wrong–that Hamsher has an out sized role in ActBlue. if that is the case, given her antics, I rather not give to something she is associated with and give to the candidate directly. But again, I was asking in ignorance, not asserting anything. If I am wrong please tell me, since you guys know more about this stuff than I do (I donated to Obama directly, never through any other source).
jayackroyd
Last post. For sure. Really. Last post. Yep. Week off. Me and the cat.
If I had a life, I’d tell you to get one.
demkat620
John Cole, you’re my hero.
Donate because Mark McGwire is a worthless, denialist POS.
Put Pete Rose in the fucking hall already.
John O
Finally.
Evidence you’re every bit as nutty as anyone else, particularly me.
Let’s see…”threats” do this previously, rinse, repeat, recognition that wallowing in the moronitude is not necessarily a long-term healthy thing, and not being able to stop?
The late, great, D.F. Wallace once said of malignant addiction, “if (1) it causes real problems for the addict, and (2) if offers itself as relief from the very problems it causes.”
John, it’s time to go away for a while now.
beltane
@Davis X. Machina: You’ve pretty well paraphrased a Daily Kos front page story from earlier this evening. No Act Blue link for Coakley there. In fact, it looks like a large percentage of that site has gone Galt on the Democratic party. Have people gone nuts? Do they honestly, in their heart of hearts, believe that Rahm Emanuel is worse than Speaker of the House Boehner?
I guess the Bush years were good times for that brand of progressive (I am starting to hate on that word) whose existence is centered on bitching and moaning.
beltane
@KCinDC: Good for you. This is the attitude I like to see.
Annie
@John Cole:
Right. We believe you….Admit it, you would miss us if you leave…
freelancer
The Matrix has you, Neo…
eemom
Good heavens, sir, you really DO need a break.
Using a progressive blog to advance a progressive agenda? Suggesting that others do the same?? When the good guys like Grassley are out there fighting the good fight against Jonathan Gruber???
Sheeeyit, I want some of what you’re smoking.
mr. whipple
It would be rec’d in waaaaaay too many places in the LW blogosphere. This is a small haven of sanity.
Thank dog for BJ.
BruceFromOhio
@valdivia:
But again, I was asking in ignorance, not asserting anything.
Yep, I gotcha. The NYTimes link is old, but it cuts to the chase. The “About” tells you who is on staff, so you can Google names if you want to know connections or history.
What was sweet in 2006 and again in 2008 was anyone could put together a slate of candidates on a page and start fundraising. So it’s easily possible that the FDL crew had one or more ActBlue pages. AFAIK, she has no professional affiliation.
eemom
@beltane:
Yup. “Progressive” has gone the way of “Christian.”
Beeb
@valdivia: Jane Hamsher has been very involved with “Blue America,” which I think is actually run by Howie Klein of DownWithTyranny. Similar names, but not the same.
beergoggles
@Dr. I. F. Stone: Living here, I’d say that about 30% of this state is made up of the usual batshit crazy republican who may very well turn up to vote for Brown just cuz he’s such an asshole.
valdivia
@BruceFromOhio:
Thanks for that info. That clarifies it a lot. And if I get some more money this week I will definitely put money to her thorough this page.
CalD
OK, I’m in. (Grumble, grumble.)
BruceFromOhio
@eemom:
I’m kind of liking ‘manic progressive.’ It’s still new in my lexicon since The Madness began just before Christmas, and it hasn’t been worn out just yet. And ‘firebaggers.’ I’m liking that, too.
And Grey Goose. I’m REALLY liking that, maybe that’s why.
AkaDad
I’m voting for Brown. We need more white men in the Senate.
General Winfield Stuck
@El Tiburon:
Short term. He will be back to fomenting righteous evil before you can blink a troll.
Max
If you think Obamarahm is just like Bush, you need to watch Rachel Maddow tonight.
And then fuck off.
John Cole
Jane Hamsher really is not the enemy. I think she has gone off the deep end the past few months, but she is still a good person and I think with good intentions. Even if she were associated with ActBlue, I would use it, because it is a good tool that leads towards good goals.
valdivia
@Beeb:
yes that must have been what I read. See total ignorance. Thanks for your patience guys.
ps for me the issue is if the money is in Hamsher’s control and she is in alliance with Norquist I don’t want my money near that. That was my only point. And I now stand corrected about ActBlue.
BruceFromOhio
Shoot, I got a broken link to the Act Blue about page, it’s really here.
And Balloons For Martha is #4 on the Hot New Pages.
donovong
“I think she has gone off the deep end the past few months, but she is still a good person and I think with good intentions.”
Sorry, man. I was never a big FDL fan before, but the minute she joined ranks with Norquist she proved the old saying about the road to hell being paved with “good intentions.” “But, I meant well” is not a good defense.
Jim
@Max:
How ’bout it! I thought on Letterman last week she was just being nice ’cause she was out in the big bad non-bloggy non-msnbc-at-nite world, but she is gonna get O-bot-ified on MyDD and FDL.
JenJen
Thanks so much for setting that up, John. I just kicked in.
I’m sincerely concerned about that seat. Almost worried… almost.
Max
@Jim: It was so good, I’m going to go back and watch it again.
love my dvr.
O-bot
Annie
From the Huffington Post — “George H.W. Bush heckled at a pizza place.”
Is nothing sacred?
Beeb
You’re more than welcome, valdivia. I like Act Blue because once you set up an account, it saves your information so you don’t have to keep filling out the “yes, this is a lawful contribution” stuff. I also like the guys who run it. BTW, I threw some in for Martha too, just to show some Juicy solidarity, but I don’t think she’s going to lose. I hope.
JenJen
@demkat620:
slag
@John Cole: And I was pleased to see John Aravosis had put up a page for Coakley. He’s apparently still in it to win it. That counts for something.
eemom
@John Cole:
“she is still a good person and I think with good intentions”
I’m sorry, but she isn’t. Not gonna go through it again, but I’ve followed FDL since 2005, when it actually was a good place; seen the way Hamsher has treated people — which includes not only stalking those she perceives as enemies but also back-stabbing those who thought they were her friends — and I am quite confident that she is not, in fact, a good person with good intentions.
Nice of you to say though. You may feel differently when she starts calling you a “bottom feeder” and a “troll with a blog.”
Or not.
Max
@slag: But, we need to beat him. He’s like $500 ahead right now.
beltane
@Annie: He shouldn’t be eating pizza at his age anyway. Maybe the hecklers were looking out for his health.
Jim
Good lord. Matt Lauer of all people is the one who finally asks John McCain to be accountable for Sarah Palin. My worldview just shook a bit (watching Rachel).
beltane
@eemom: Agreed. Her treatment of the eminently nice BooMan was beyond the pale. And her army of trolls have bullied some really wonderful diarists and commenters out of GOS. Given a position of prominence, she would be every bit as petty and nasty as the worst hack on the Washington Post’s op-ed page.
moe99
Put in my $50 plus tip under my actual name, since they won’t let me use this one. Will the Act Blue thread pic at the top here change to reflect the bounce in Balloon donors?
General Winfield Stuck
@eemom: Jane is mostly harmless, until she gets on teevee. Then we get pasty hit pieces in Politico with her prints on it as the source, and a lib civil war is broadcast to the hordes of idjits and a meme is born that Obama’s “base” is also unpleased which squares the circle with wingnut permanent pique of disapproval. Then she is the enemy, political wise, in my book.
And all of it generated from a small sampling of discontented bloggers.
Max
While we are all in a giving mood…
via Twitter
@WyclefJean
It’s just a little bit more giving, for a very worthy cause.
General Winfield Stuck
@beltane:
Never here. We will fight till the last false persona, I swear unto thee..
edit– Cheetos, we need lots of Cheetos.!!
Mike Kay
@John Cole:
She may not be the enemy, but she is NOT a good person. She has never made a single positive comment about Obama. Not one. The fact that she doesn’t use overt racist language like Larry “flowbee” Johnson doesn’t make her a good person.
To what extend do people cut her a break because she’s cute?
demkat620
@JenJen: I wanted to punch the TV. As a life long Phils fan I can say outraged.
Fuck him and Sosa and Bonds.
different church-lady
No, no, that was last month’s meme. Today is different. Very different.
A special election is like a best of three playoff series in sports: upsets are much more likely. If there is low turnout (and there usually is in special elections) then anything can happen.
Add in the fact that there are a whole lot of border-wingnuts/teabaggers in this very blue state, and they are absolutely FROTHING right now. If they all go to the polls and the liberal voters who think it’s in the bag don’t… well, you do the math.
Mike Kay
@beltane:
Who was bullied out of GOS?
Annie
@General Winfield Stuck:
I got an email from her today asking to sign some petition. I was in the middle of work — students screaming about how they signed up for the wrong course and could I do something for them IMMEDIATELY — so I fired off a response that basically said go away and join the teabaggers.
Funny, she did not respond….
slag
@Max: Yeah. That’s not ok.
I just pimped this Act Blue page on 538.com and will probably get hammered for it. I wish I were better at pimping.
different church-lady
It ain’t about the money!! It’s about the TURNOUT.
Yes, money will help, but it will not win this. This is not a normal election. Coakley’s a lock IF, and ONLY IF the vote turns out. Money alone will not achieve that.
If you know someone in Mass, call them personally and fill them in on the situation, and tell them to call their friends. Tell them this is not a lock and cannot be taken for granted and they MUST go to the polls.
Comrade Kevin
@Mike Kay: The Lieberman “blackface” post, and her non-apology “I’m sorry if anyone was offended” crap made me wonder about her.
Warren Terra
I put in a small donation.
It is dispiriting though that the plug-in isn’t working properly (at least for me on my Windows XP/Google Chrome system): I mean, I can click through and see the statistics (currently $1620 from 39 people), but none of the progress can be seen in the plug-in (it shows the goal, but $0 from 0 people). Maybe the wrong code is being used, so we’re seeing the progress as of a certain time point, or something?
Mike Kay
@eemom:
Who did she stalk and backstab? I know she called Booman a “bottomfeeder” who did she call “a troll with a blog”?
Jim
@Comrade Kevin:
@Mike Kay: The Lieberman “blackface” post, and her non-apology “I’m sorry if anyone was offended” crap made me wonder about her.
In retrospect, an early warning of the tendency of some people to confuse the blogosphere with the Democratic party as a whole, and often the electorate as a whole, i.e. “WHY HASN”T OBAMA DONE X!!!!”.
beltane
@Mike Kay: There’s a GBCW diary on the rec list that explains a lot.
Paris
3. Why did Sarah Palin cross the road?
Because there was an opportunity to make an ass of herself on the other side.
…
10. What did the ghost of William F. Buckley, Jr. say when he saw Sarah Palin on Fox News?
I wish I was still alive, so I could call a press conference and blow my head off.
http://trueslant.com/davidrees/2010/01/11/10-jokes-about-sarah-palin-joining-fox-news/
General Winfield Stuck
@demkat620:
Hopefully, this sad chapter in our beloved national pastime is behind us. I think every home run those guys hit while they were on steroids should be stricken from the books, and I don’t buy into the ‘well it was an era where everyone was doing it”. Though I suppose lots of asterisks will have to do in liew of altering the records.
The Other Steve
BREAKING NEWS!!!! PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS JUST ISSUED HIS FIRST VETO!
This is proof he’s just like Bush!
FormerSwingVoter
Listen, as someone from Massachusetts:
This is not a safe seat.
There is a lot of libertarian nonsense floating around out here. I saw Ron Paul bumper stickers during the election (though, obviously, not as many as Obama ones). The conservatives here are vocal and fanatical and crazy. The most popular talk radio host here is Jay Severin, an atrocious little turd of a man who recently claimed that the top exports of Mexico were “venereal disease, women with mustaches, and swine flu”.
Now, because everyone – people here included – have assumed this was a safe seat, I am on the verge of being represented in the Senate by a backwards Republican lunatic who flipped from pro-choice to pro-life as soon as national checks started rolling in. His entire platform is that he will be the 41st vote to defeat health care reform.
But the people here, while leaning Democratic, are not heavily involved. These are not the type of people who will turn out for a special election, but the conservative nutbags will.
I just put up $25. Please help us. Please save health care reform. Just put up $10 to make sure we can get the things we need to passed through Congress. We took this seat for granted, the teabaggers mobilized (check out this money bomb the teabaggers brought in), and now we’re in danger of losing the seat unless we do everything we can to get every Democrat we can to the polls.
Thank you.
mai naem
Okay, I’m going to kick in a few bucks but I would certainly hope that ObamaRahma would hit up all their wonderful banksta gangsta buddies for the $2500 max donations for all the help they have received from this administration. Hell, that’s the least they can do with their multimillion dollar bonuses. And I certainly hope that Larry Summers is calling up his buddies in Cambridge to make sure they’re going to vote for Coakley.
kay
What is concerning me is this: she is running a negative ad.
That worries me a bit. If she’s comfortably ahead why is she doing that?
demkat620
@General Winfield Stuck: I agree. And Roger Maris and his family deserve more from baseball than they have gotten.
Fucking asterisk.
valdivia
@kay:
because she waited til it was too late and Brown has been lying for a month now?
FormerSwingVoter
@Annie:
No kidding. I can’t believe someone like that would eat pizza. It insults an entire category of food.
Jim
@FormerSwingVoter:
If there’s a silver lining to this, maybe it’s that people will get it through their marble skulls that, as Obama said a year ago, his election was a step, not the end of the trail.
Warren Terra
Add to this, the ratfnckers are running someone named “Joe Kennedy” as the Libertarian – as in, someone sharing the same name (even, I think, the same middle initial) as Joe Kennedy the son of Bobby Kennedy, former congressman from Massachusetts, and longtime anointed presumptive heir of Teddy Kennedy. (The real) Joe Kennedy has led “Citizens Energy” for more than a decade now, an organization that arranges low-cost heating oil in winter for those who need it (including many retirees on social security in big houses that made sense for their families fifty years ago), with many, many ads each fall and winter that are more about Joe Kennedy than about the subsidized oil (they’re all Joe talking to camera, with the phone number 800-Joe-4-Oil), making sure that everyone remembers him and associates him with something positive. He decided not to run, so a stooge is running using his name.
This will be a low-turnout election (it’s the third Tuesday in a cold January, for heaven’s sake), and between fired-up Teabaggers and confused retirees filling the oval for Joe Kennedy, I’m far from confident. And the Coakley campaign has been apathetic to the point of near nonexistence until this past weekend.
Annie
@FormerSwingVoter:
LOL. thanks. I needed one more laugh before I call it a night…
Cassidy
Fix ed.
Maybe this has been seen before?
Amanda
Gave $50 via ActBlue yesterday
j
Thanks for putting up an ACTBlue page. $250 to the Dems.
Losing this seat would be a crisis, whether or not the Firebaggers realize it.
And I do love that term.
KT
Reporting in From Massachusetts…
I work for a large newspaper chain in Eastern Ma. and things do not look good for Coakley. We just put out 6 papers and the polls for several liberal affluent towns show her getting absolutely creamed. Most of them were in the range of Brown 65% to Coakley 25-30%
At this point, it looks like we’re in for a major upset. Liberal icon Ted Kennedy to be replaced by a total winger Brown.
Oh, joy. Three more years of unrelenting shit flinging by Republicans .
eemom
@Mike Kay:
she called Booman that too. She’s not one for moderation in name-calling.
Who has she stalked? Well, most recently the entire Obama administration and most Democratic senators, just to name a few. The more ordinary folks on her hit list since HCR started have been labelled “paid Pharma trolls” — except for the single-payer believers, who get to be “Naderites.”
There was her bizarre bitchfest last year against Caroline Kennedy (who “got her nails done” and “didn’t get a pony,” so that’s why she wanted to be a senator). Before that there was just about everybody in the world who didn’t shill for Hillary, who were all uniformly condemned as “misogynists.” (Notice a little disconnect there?)
As for backstabbing, TRex would be the most famous example — but there are plenty of others in the comment sections, including her own longtime loyal readers, who get the royal snarl every time they dare to disagree with Her Progressiveness (and what a bunch of pathetic tools they are, but that’s another story).
JenJen
@FormerSwingVoter: @Warren Terra:
Well, you’ve both thoroughly made the case, and I’m wondering if I should donate again and give a little more. That “Money Bomb” story is especially scary, FSV.
WaterGirl
I didn’t contribute today when Dick Durbin wrote to ask me to make an Oakley contribution because I don’t have a lot of money and I figured it was someone else’s turn to contribute. But now John’s post and comments in the thread have me worried, and inspired, so I just made a small contribution. Good on you, John, for doing this.
Edit: the thermometer isn’t working for me either. It perpetually says some small number of donors and $610, even if I refresh.
Mary
I’m satisfied that Hamsher is not in charge of Act Blue so I made a donation.
I hope someone is keeping track of who didn’t put up a fundraising call for Coakley because that says a lot.
Amy
I got Hamsher’s e-mail today saying that the Gruber thing was a major scandal and wrote back saying that the message was hysterical and incorrect and that she misunderstood how social science research is competitively funded.
When are those folks going to take me off their e-mail list?
Jim
@Amy:
there is an unsubscribe button in the email. I’m off that list.
burnspbesq
I’m in. it’s worth it.
SIA
@CalD:
Me too. Not because I mind the money. Because I’m cranky.
KDP
@John Cole: Fair enough. Thank you for providing the link and motivation to donate to Coakley.
SIA
@Max: Yes. THANK you.
PanAmerican
@Jim:
This stuff has been stewing for awhile. 2006: privileged white assholes confused by complaints from minorities.
SIA
FSM forgive me for I took pleasure in reading this.
burnspbesq
I made a lot of good friends during the time I hung out at FDL, so I won’t ever completely hate the place, but there are a lot of seriously intolerant people over there, and I got tired of taking abuse for my occasional attempts to inject a little common sense. I am much happier here.
kay
@valdivia:
They probably thought it was a safe seat because of the huge number advantage she had.
664,000 people voted in her Democratic primary, versus 162,000 in Brown’s Republican primary. I just looked it up.
How the hell do half a million voters switch sides, between the primary and the general? In a month?
Is she incredibly horrible, or something? Has there been a huge scandal I am unaware of?
Kerry Reid
Donated, will make calls through OFA as well. Here’s the link for those who want to do that (I have unlimited long-distance and work from home, so why not?)
http://my.barackobama.com/page/votercontact/checkin?walk_packet_code=S29QTG
J. Michael Neal
@JenJen:
Elie
I just made a contribution — would be a travesty to have a republican in that seat.
That said, echoeing kay at 103 — Is there something that I/we need to be aware of?
Jim
@kay:
I don’t think it has to do with people switching. Google tells me 3.1 million people voted in 11/08 (a record high). If half that number show up next week, that’s double the number who voted in the primary. Still pretty surprising if Brown would get enough of those non-primary voters to beat Coakley starting out with 650K
WaterGirl
@J. Michael Neal: I have been wondering how your job interview went.
kay
@Elie:
Well, it’s flawed, because she may not have lost anyone, he just gained all the independents?
But I could see why they would be complacent. Her “base” is so much bigger, and it’s only been a month. They probably looked at the Dem turnout for the primary and thought they had it.
I’m guessing. Thinking aloud. I have no earthly idea why anyone would vote for a Republican in a Senate race, after how they’ve behaved.
SIA
@SIA: I take it back – it was Bush Sr, who, compared to his son, is a fucking brick.
CalD
@BruceFromOhio:
Ooh. I like it!
To tell you the truth, I never really managed the transition from Liberal to Progressive myself. It always seemed like a cop-out to me to run away from a word just because some unholy coalition of right-wing loonies and high-dollar PR firms were out to make it synonymous with Satan. Besides, I always kind of liked reaction I got from “conservatives” with it (speaking of hijacked words).
Glocksman
If I thought the only ‘harm’ Brown would do would be to kill HCR, I’d flip his campaign $100 right now as the Senate bill is my ‘hill to die on’ for reasons I’ve outlined in other threads.
That said, his impact would go far beying killing that abortion of a Senate HCR bill and impact many other issues.
So I won’t donate to him.
Though I also won’t put out the effort I did in 2008 to elect candidate Obama, who said all the right things WRT taxing my health insurance, Wall Street, etc.
I won’t do so for the simple reason that none of my people (I’m a shop steward active in the local’s PAC) would fucking believe a word I said after President Obama signed the bill taxing their health insurance and literally put a Wall Street fox in the henhouse WRT financial reform.
Shit, I’m already getting nasty blowback from the Senate plan and I’m positive It’ll increase tenfold if that abortion actually passes.
If it does pass, I’ll bet $50 that Indiana is solid Red State in 2012.
kay
@Jim:
Thanks. You’re absolutely right.
I don’t really understand “independents”, or “undecided voters” for that matter.
I understand the concept of “independents”, and I see it at a local or state level, I vote for GOP judges locally, because I have no choice, but what good does supporting a particular policy or person in the Senate do without some sort of consistent majority to move the actual legislation?
“I like his position on X”. That’s how independents talk. Great. Fabulous. Fat lot of good it’s going to do you if the supporter of X in the Senate is one of only twenty.
Jean
@eemom: Yep, I frequented FDL and remember those days. Haven’t gone back since the primaries. Whole place changed. What happened to Christy (or Redhead, as she was once called)?
J. Michael Neal
@General Winfield Stuck:
Aside from the amphetamines issue, there is a very valid point to the argument that everyone was doing it. That’s that it’s important to remember that *pitchers* were also using steroids. In fact, based upon the number of minor leaguers caught in the testing regime, there are far *more* pitchers using than hitters.
This makes sense, because, if you understand how anabolic steroids work, they provide much more direct benefit to pitchers than they do to hitters. Steroids do *not* make you stronger. They promote faster healing of body tissue. Weightlifters take steroids because they allow them to lift more often, since the steroids help the body to heal the damage of each session. That’s how people use them to get stronger.
Aside from the benefits added by lifting weights (check out Roger Clemens legs, for instance), pitchers benefit directly. Throwing a baseball overhand at 90+ mph, or with enough spin to produce a 12-6 curveball, is extremely damaging to the every structure in the arm. Anything that helps the arm heal this damage more quickly, before the pitcher has to take the mound again, is incredibly helpful.
The argument is not that everyone taking steroids did not enhance their performance relative to not taking them. (Though, the hard empirical evidence for those benefits is extremely thin.) It’s that there isn’t any reason to think that steroids helped *hitting* in particular, relative to how much it helped pitching. Or, for that matter, how much it helped fielders who needed to cover more ground, though this is less relevant to home runs, of course, at least in a first order analysis.
The whole concept of putting asterisks in the record books is stupid. The game changes all the time. The record books are, by definition, comparing players that played in completely different environments. Unless you want to subject the records to context adjustment (for era and home park), there isn’t any reason to start throwing asterisks around. Did Mark McGwire get an unfair advantage from taking steroids? Maybe, but I don’t see that it was a bigger unfair advantage than Bob Gibson had setting the ERA record throwing off of a higher mound than anyone who came after him. It most certainly wasn’t a greater unfair advantage than Babe Ruth had over everyone that came before him in setting the home run record through getting to hit a ball that was hard* and that he could see; it also didn’t hurt him that opposing pitching talent was watered down since black pitchers (in what was a *vastly* greater scandal than steroids) were forced to pitch in a different league.
Records are always dependent upon their context. Some great players will always get screwed because they played at a time in which conditions suppressed the numbers that they could produce with their talents. Deal with it.
CalD
I tend to think MA democrats can scare up a statewide ground operation in week’s time if they go into full mobilization mode — as I imagine they are doing right now. The national committees have plenty of cash on hand and are already moving in. It’s about the perfect time to go negative and one of the things that’s been buoying Brown up are high favorables and low negatives. Got a feeling that’s about to change…
J. Michael Neal
@WaterGirl: It lasted twenty minutes; the drive down to Eagan took longer. He said that they are going to call people they want to bring back for a second interview next week. So, we’ll see.
I thought it went really well, but I’m also not foolish enough to think that I can tell whether he liked me as much as I liked the job. I have no idea. We’ll just have to wait and see.
I really, really want the job, though. It turns out that it probably wouldn’t even involve much travel, which is the one negative I saw going in.
MikeJ
@WaterGirl:
I’ve been wondering how his hip-hop experiments went.
Mary
I’m sensing that a new right wing talking point has been rolled out to call the health care reform bill “an abortion.”
Mary
@J. Michael Neal: We’re all rooting for you.
YellowJournalism
I think we need to add “Going Cole” to the lexicon. It can mean doing twice as much work in a shorter time frame while you should be on vacation.
Mary
@Jean: Christy said she was hanging it up for health reasons. Boy, I’ll bet she could tell some tales.
Jim
@Jean:
Same thing happened at Eschaton. Anybody who suggested Obama was not deliberately selling out the Democrats was a big looser and DLC troll (not kidding about that last part). The odd thing it was the Hillary Rodham Kucinich supporters who were the nastiest. Actual Kucinich supporters mostly said that Obama was doing pretty much what they expected, and having more success than they’d anticipated.
MikeJ
@Mary:
I’m calling it, “that appendectomy of a bill.” Sure, you don’t really *want* one, but it’s better than the alternative.
General Winfield Stuck
@J. Michael Neal:
Are you smoking crack? Jeebus, you are confusing the anti inflammatory Cortisteroids with Anabolic ones. Anabolic steroids are nothing but synthetic Testosterone. They build, muscle mass, strength and energy. And together with moderate body building you get Barry Bonds looking like the Incredible Hulk in a very short time. Mcguire hit nearly half his 530 some HRS,. in just 4 seasons he used AS’s.
I do give a break to those who might have used them many years ago when they were still legal, but not since. Every single player that took them knew they were cheating, all of them. And denial is a river in Egypt.
Jean
@Mary: Are you the Mary who used to comment there regularly? Legal topics, if I remember correctly? I met some very nice people there, and we worked together on a few campaigns in Virginia. I don’t believe they visit FDL any longer either. Used to be a nice community of commenters.
WaterGirl
@J. Michael Neal: I think the 20-minute interview sounds smart from their perspective, though I imagine going all that way for 20 minutes wasn’t that great for you. But that makes me think they are experienced about hiring, which is a good thing.
I’ll bet you get the second interview, but I will cross my fingers for you anyway. Since the second interviews are next week, at least you won’t have to wait long to find out.
So now that you know you really want the job, is there anything else you can do to prepare for the second interview?
FormerSwingVoter
@kay:
McCain got 1.1 million votes here, in a state where Republicans assumed their vote would be wasted. No one turned up for the Republican primary, which pitted Brown against a no-name with no support and no money. This isn’t a matter of a half-million people switching sides – it’s a matter of a half-million Republicans who didn’t show up for the primary showing up for the general election because they’re as devoted as they are insane, while Democrats (who had a wide-open four-person primary) will assume that the seat is safe and stay home.
Once again, I’d like to re-iterate: Brown raised 1.3 MILLION dollars in 24 hours. We need help.
WaterGirl
@MikeJ: That is too funny!
J. Michael Neal
@MikeJ:
Still early enough that I can’t report much. It’s a format where I need to spend more time paying attention to lyrics than I usually do. That means I need to listen to it in the car to really appreciate it.
I do have a couple of early reports. I don’t like the Wu Tang Clan. The number of completely gratuitous “fucks” and its various derivatives was a negative. It’s a cover for crappy thinking. You need to save your strongest language to make your strongest points. Once you’ve completely devalued the word “fuck,” where do you have left to go? It also seemed pretty pointless in its use of violent imagery. The musical component also left me cold. They rhymed well, but that’s not really the part I’m looking for the most.
The Jurassic 5 are fun. I need to listen to the album a few more times before I really decide whether I like it, but the first impression was positive.
Flava Flav alternates between being quite good and very annoying. His shout outs to Chuck get old pretty quickly. I think that the genre is probably conducted in a more conversational tone than I’d really prefer. I’ll just have to get used to it. It Takes a Nation of Millions is really kind of a strange album, swinging from militant to goofy without a lot of transition.
That’s about all I’ve listened to so far. They didn’t start arriving in the mail until yesterday, and I still only have about half of them.
FormerSwingVoter
http://www.brownforussenate.com/red-invades-blue
There’s his money bomb. 1.3 million. The teabaggers are out in force.
I don’t think $10k for Coakley is an unreasonable goal.
Mary
@Jean: No. I’m not that Mary but I know who you’re talking about. She was very impressive. I wouldn’t be surprised that she no longer visits. I know I don’t.
General Winfield Stuck
@General Winfield Stuck: And I will add, that Roger Clemens and other pitchers used Human Growth Hormone, that can also be used for anabolic purpose of improved strength, but also has regenerative properties as well. Though it is now banned too.
Jean
@Mary: So we probably were around during the same era, beginning about 05.
I wasn’t v. nervous about Coakley but now I am.
And even though the VA Dems snagged Cuccinelli (who makes McDonnell seem like Pelosi), they may lose one Dem senator to a McDonnell offer in his admin, and thus be back to +1 majority.
FormerSwingVoter
Sorry if I seem so panicky, guys. But today I learned about the money bomb and that a couple friends of mine thought that the election had already taken place (they literally thought the primary was the election). I feel like this is really important, and I feel like we might lose, and I just wanted everyone to know just how urgent things really are over here.
Thanks to everyone for hearing me out, even if you didn’t donate :)
Jean
@FormerSwingVoter: I donated yesterday.
Mary
@Jim: I wonder if Atrios’ traffic is down too because the front page no longer says how many comments each post has.
I hope John gets all their traffic.
FormerSwingVoter
@Jean:
Thanks. We owe you one.
Glocksman
@Mary:
If it’s a new RW talking point, I’m surprised as I just used the term as an expression of disgust that also had the benefit of punning Bart Stupak.
That said, do you honestly think the somewhat skeptical blue collar workers I spent months talking up Obama with using his ‘no health insurance taxes’ and ‘regulate Wall Street’ themes are going to believe me this time, even if I were inclined to inadvertently lie to them again?
Sure, Obama’s an improvement over GW Bush in several areas.
The problem is that the optics of it look as if he’s pulling a Clinton on labor.
In other words, throw us a few crumbs (Clinton: FMLA, Obama: Ledbetter pay act) while selling us down the river WRT the bread and butter issues (Clinton: NAFTA and ‘free trade’ in general. Obama: Health care and how to pay for it).
Putting it simply, can you convince a union worker making $25k/yr that it’s better for him to have his ‘cadillac’ health insurance taxed while its ‘unacceptable’ (according to that whore from Louisiana) to tax the top 5% of all taxpayers?
If you can’t, the risk is that most of us ‘stupid union people’ will just stay home and get drunk on election day simply because when the chips are down, the Democrats are just as willing to sell us down the fucking river as much as any Republican is.
Back in 2000, I asked my union local’s service rep if he was going to vote for Gore/Lieberman.
His reply of “I may be a social*ist but I’m not fucking stupid) was literally prescient considering Holy Joe’s actions since then.
Mary
@Jean: Yes. I was nervous enough about Coakley to give her some money even though i can’t afford it. If she loses, it will be devastating.
General Winfield Stuck
deleted by author. brainfart.
eemom
@Jean:
I’m in VA too, Vienna. I was absolutely disgusted by the Gov. election, and not because I jumped on the “diss Creigh Deeds” bandwagon. I’m disgusted at the useless-ass “unmotivated” Democratic electorate. ok, so Deeds weren’t no Obama — but even the fucking Washington Post knew — and said! — that he would be a vastly better choice than Mickey “Neo Pat Robertson” D.
I can not COMPREHEND the mindset of anyone who does not vote. Preening, posturing, silly pissyness about being above “the lesser of two evils” is bullshit. One of them is going to win, and we’re all going to live with the result. So FUCK every fair weather Democrat or “independent” who stayed home last November, and gave us McDonnell and Cuccinelli.
Jim
Preening, posturing, silly pissyness about being above “the lesser of two evils” is bullshit
I. Absolutely. Hate. That. Phrase.
I can’t remember which pundit it was who diagnosed Perot voters as people who wanted to opt out of any responsibilty for the consequences of the ’92 elections (which in retrospect seem pretty small). I tend to feel the same way about most “independents”. While there may be many who are genuinely conflicted about real issues, I think most are coin-flippers who feed themselves comforting clichés about “voting the person, not the party” and “character”.
J. Michael Neal
@General Winfield Stuck:
To some extent, this is the same thing. You build muscle by tearing it and letting it heal. Many of the effects of anabolic steroids involve either minimizing the amount of tearing or increasing the speed at which the stronger new tissue replaces the damage. You get almost no effect from anabolic steroids if you just take them; they have to be combined with a strength training regime in which that destructive/creative process works.
This isn’t the same effect that cortical steroids have. Those are anti-inflammatories. The main mechanism for this is through effects on the immune system and its inflammation response. It’s questionable whether or not they promote *healing* of tissue at all. There seems to be some short term benefit in repairing muscle, but the long term effects are exactly the opposite.
It is absolutely the case that anabolic steroids help pitchers in more direct ways than they do hitters.
Define “legal.” They have been illegal for decades. They weren’t against the rules of baseball until 2003. Ignore anyone who wants to tell you that they were banned by Fay Vincent’s 1991 memo. Vincent had no authority to take such an action, as baseball’s drug policy was explicitly a part of the collective bargaining agreement. He could no more ban steroids on his own authority than he could reinstitute the reserve clause for players with more than six years of MLB service time. So, by the rules of the sport, Mark McGwire *never* cheated by using steroids, as he retired before the ban was in place. They were illegal, but that doesn’t differentiate them amphetamines. Again, outrage about the one but not the other is rank hypocrisy.
General Winfield Stuck
@J. Michael Neal:
You made the original claim that AS’s did not increase strength, that is false, and it is irrelevant that more strength is gained while using body building programs, which they all did. And the fact that body building as an exculpate for the end result is nonsense. They all body built to get the full effect.
And comparing amphetamines with AS’s is ludicrous, take it from an old druggie.
And the reason why Fay Vincent’s ban wasn’t enforced is because the players union has fought it tooth and nail, as well as adequate testing programs.
And whether it helps pitchers more than hitters is also beside the point, now isn’t it. Though Clemons and others used HGH, not AS’s.
Here is the bottom line, every one has known for a long time that use of AS’s creates muscle mass and un natural strength when combined with body building and is cheating. For hitters that means increased bat speed and hitting balls farther than without steroids. Everything else is irrelevant, all the time lines for banning and illegality as such.
And arguing otherwise is absurd in the extreme, and you know it. But you are free to have your opinion, and I will have mine. And anyone who is being honest agrees with mine in this matter.
I know you like to argue with fence posts, this is a bad fencepost to plant yer flag. IMHO
J. Michael Neal
@General Winfield Stuck:
Why? Both are illegal, and both improve performance. Your outrage is pathetically selective. Give me any grounds on which outrage over steroids is justified while amphetamines get a pass.
There are a lot of strung together hypotheses here, as well as a lot of “everybody knows.” The actual evidence that steroids help home run hitters is extremely thin. I’m pretty sure that it does, but we have no idea how much.
The union fought it tooth and nail because they always, and very properly, fight management attempting to unilaterally impose new work rules. Fay Vincent took absolutely the most confrontational approach to the subject, attempted to exercise powers that he didn’t have, and never bothered to work through the collective bargaining process to deal with steroids. Then Beelzebud took over, and the pattern continued. The entire approach was for the commissioner to take public pot shots at the players (when not ignoring it altogether because McGwire and Sosa were busy “saving baseball) and demanding that they accept new restrictions.
The players have very good historical reasons for not trusting the owners at all, both in general and on this specific issue. Vincent and Selig took an approach of forcing the union to submit, and eventually won. There was never *any* attempt to negotiate what is clearly a collective bargaining issue. I would have lost respect for the Players’ Association if they hadn’t fought over this, given the approach that the owners (and never forget that the commissioner is nothing but the public face of the owners) took. A group of people who have been repeatedly fined for violations of labor law, even in the environment of lax enforcement we’ve had for the last several decades, needs to approach a subject in a more conciliatory fashion before I’m going to criticize a union for opposing their confrontational actions.
How can it be beside the point? If your argument is that the home run records were fueled by steroids, then a claim that the people who set those records were helped more by the steroids than those who job was to prevent them from setting them is central to the entire point.
General Winfield Stuck
@J. Michael Neal:
Nice try, I think amphetamines along with all the other listed banned drugs are bad. That is a strawman,
Like I said, you want to apologize for Mcguirre et al, you are free to do so. There are a few of you around, though not many. This isn’t a legal argument and if you want to live in a fairly land that “the evidence is thin” on helping hitters hit more home runs, then have at it. The empirical evidence is very clear it does. As does basic common sense.
They cheated and sullied the record books because of it. Mcguire knows it, and is finally coming clean. If you choose to believe otherwise, have at it. I have no desire to enter one of Neal’s vacuous mental masturbation sessions.This be the end to this ridiculous exchange
Yutsano
@General Winfield Stuck: @J. Michael Neal: I’m gonna recommend a really good book for you two. It’s called The Cheater’s Guide To Baseball, and the author includes a chapter on steroids. What’s really amazing is he’s ambiguous about their effects, except he put us stats a la Nate Silver to prove that indeed steroid cycles did help Barry Bonds as he cycled. That may be one case, but it does show some strength to the argument that Bonds could not have done what he did without the pharmacological assistance.
EDIT: BTW the book is full of snarky win about how baseball has changed since its inception in the 1800’s.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
Steroids are the worst thing plaguing sports today. They taint hallowed records, make a mockery of the sport, and are a bad influence on young children. Users should be shunned and crucified as the threats to society that they are.
Sincerely,
Shawn Merriman, NFL All-Pro and Rookie of the Year
Rashard Lewis, defending Eastern Conference champions Orlando Magic
Rodney Harrison, NBC’s Football Night In America
KDP
As of last check, a couple of minutes ago, we’re up to $4935. Halfway there.
Yutsano
@KDP: Halfway mark is now broken, just kicked in $100.
asiangrrlMN
Done. I got some extra ducats from a massive editing project I just (mostly) finished), so I threw some Coakley’s way. And, we are over the halfway point, people. Let’s keep it going and get the word out.
@Yutsano: Jinx! Me, too!
J. Michael Neal
@General Winfield Stuck:
I didn’t ask you whether they are bad. I asked you why their usage by players that set MLB records doesn’t lead you to the same determination to reject those records. So, the strawman is your creation, not mine. Why is Mark McGwire’s use of an illegal performance enhancing drug that wasn’t against the rules of baseball disqualifying, but Hank Aaron’s use of an illegal performance enhancing drug that wasn’t against the rules of baseball isn’t?
I have no intention of apologizing for him. He made his choices and has to live with them. He can defend himself in whatever way he chooses.
I’m asking you why you are a hypocrite when it comes to performance enhancing drugs. In some cases, you limit yourself to saying, “They’re bad,” but not demanding that anything be done about the player’s place in baseball history. In other cases, you get all self-righteous and insist that we do everything possible to delegitimize what happened on the field. Why the difference?
The empirical evidence is clear? Cite me a single study.
McGwire didn’t cheat to any greater extent than Hank Aaron did. Or Micky Mantle. Steroids were illegal, just as amphetamines were. They were not against the rules of MLB, just as amphetamines weren’t. Both improve performance.
Or, if cheating is what gets you exercised, why is Gaylord Perry in the Hall of Fame? He cheated. Cheating has been a part of baseball since it began. It isn’t cricket.
My purpose isn’t to apologize for steroids. I’d be happy if we cleaned them entirely out of sports, though I’m not holding my breath. I just think that this idea that they are somehow *worse* than what goes on in baseball all the time is ridiculous. The record book will never be purified. It is what it is.
As I said above, the stain of segregation, both morally and in terms of its effects upon the historical record, is greater than steroids could possibly be. Even if you don’t think that it pumped up Babe Ruth’s numbers as much as drugs did Mark McGwire’s, it absolutely suppressed the MLB records set by Josh Gibson, and Satchel Paige, and Buck O’Neill, and hundreds of others. If we aren’t going to put an asterisk on every single thing that happened before 1947, or even later than that, given the transition time, then I find the insistence that we put an asterisk on anything else morally offensive. Sure, Babe Ruth didn’t cheat, since MLB didn’t have a rule requiring that black players be allowed on the field that anyone could violate, but it gave him a very tangible, unfair, advantage over all of those that had to face the full population of major league caliber pitchers.
The historical record of what happened on the field is what it is. Every single instance of it is a result of the whole environment in which it happened. There is not, and never has been, a neutral context. For some players, steroids gave them an advantage, though which players and to what extent remains unclear. For others, it was amphetamines. For others, it was institutional racism. For others, it was getting to pitch six innings a game with a discolored, scuffed, softened ball that batters couldn’t see well and couldn’t hit hard if they did. For others, it was . . . on and on and on. What happened on the field is what happened. The record books should reflect that, and we shouldn’t get into debates as to what should and shouldn’t go in there.
At an absolute minimum, we should limit ourselves to proven instances where the rules of major league baseball were broken. This is why Pete Rose is banned: he violated the single rule that most directly challenges the integrity of the game being played, and one that received constant reiteration as something that *would* get you banned for life. The integrity of the game isn’t really cheating, per se; if it were, baseball would have collapsed before the National Association was even formed. It’s that the game being played is, in some way, fake, that the concern of the people playing or managing the game is something other than winning, though “winning” is generally defined as being over the course of the whole season rather than any particular game. Rose violated that. Mark McGwire did not.
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: Hon, here is the pic. The mostly tan one is Daisy, and the mostly black one is Luna.
Yutsano
@J. Michael Neal:
Because there is no direct evidence that amphetamines directly enhanced their play on the field. Derek Zumsteg (the author of the book I recommended) says that speed was mostly to keep players awake when their playing schedules got longer and longer. One could make the argument that staying awake during a game is a performance enhancement, but that’s a far cry ffrom injecting a drug that changes your body composition.
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: I no haz Gmail, I might just now haz a sad.
General Winfield Stuck
@J. Michael Neal:
This is funny. I can’t and won’t respond to free associative gibberish. You should make a good lawyer though. Nite Neal:)
Brian J
@FormerSwingVoter:
How much of that is from out of state, though?
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: What???? What? Ok. I will move the pic elsewhere. Hold on.
jl
How long does it take for the ActBlue widget to update? I don’t see my money yet!
If this is a spoof and it’s really going to Tunch’s bedtime snack fund, I will feel betrayed.
And how far will 10 grand go for that anyway?
J. Michael Neal
@Yutsano:
Uhm, amphetamines do change your body composition. That’s how they keep you awake. And, yes, I would argue that staying awake is very much a performance enhancement. Someone who is fully alert is much more likely to hit a home run than someone who is half asleep.
I don’t think that there is any such thing as a baseline of performance and that anything that allows one to play at that level is restorative, and that anything that pushes one above that line is enhancing. Athletes are always enhancing or degrading their performance. The ability to withstand or overcome injuries is just as much a part of athletic talent as being able to turn on a fastball. So is the inherent endurance required to play for a full season without one’s performance suffering in the second half.
Cortisone is performance enhancing because it allows a player to deal with injury and wear and tear more effectively than he would be able to without an injection. Amphetamines are performance enhancing because they allow a player to withstand fatigue more effectively than they are inherently capable of. I don’t see any useful distinction here from a drug that enhances performance by adding muscle mass. All of them allow a player to do things that they would be incapable of without the drug. If you do something that you wouldn’t be able to do otherwise, the drug enhanced your performance. I’ve never seen an argument to the contrary that survives much testing, unless one believes that endurance and durability aren’t athletic abilities, which I find ludicrous.
We don’t get to a meaningful distinction until looking at whether or not something is against the rules. That could be the rules of society, as measured by the legal code, or it could be measured by the rules put out by the body that governs a particular sport. I’ve seen arguments to a sort of unwritten code that is supposed to govern behavior, but I find this to be useless, given the flexible and selective enforcement.
Another distinction that could be used would be to draw a line between drugs that enhance performance up to a certain amount and those that do so more than that amount. I reject this, for two reasons. The first is that no one, Stuck’s argument to the contrary, really has any idea how much steroids really affected outcomes, or amphetamines, either. We just don’t. As I said, I’m pretty sure that both had a positive effect on the performance of those who took them, but that’s really all I can say. I have no idea how much benefit they got, and I can’t even be positive that there was any. Thinking that they probably did isn’t the same thing as having real evidence. It’s also the case that no one has ever even attempted to articulate an amount of enhancement that’s acceptable and where the line is. That puts us in unwritten code territory. There really is no value to be gained by trying to evaluate the admissibility of the records of steroid users here. Someone with a strong opinion can evaluate for themselves how they feel about a particular record, but, again, that’s not really an argument that’s productive.
By the meaningful distinction available, there isn’t a difference between steroids and amphetamines. Both were illegal over the time period in question. Neither were against the rules of baseball over the time period in question. Both allowed players to do things that they would not have been able to do without taking them. Neither of them have effects that anyone has put any serious objective value upon. Both have negative health consequences associated with regular use, if that’s a distinction that matters to people.
I have never heard anyone articulate a convincing argument as to why steroid users should be treated differently than all of the other players in baseball history that did unethical, illegal, or even things that were actually against MLB rules. It’s a huge exercise of faux rage with no critical thought behind it.
Stuck seems to think that I am, in some way, arguing *for* steroids users. That’s not really what I’m doing. I’m arguing against people like him who have a ridiculous and false idea about the integrity of baseball’s records. I find their insistence that they can separate what is legitimate from what is illegitimate annoying and destructive. Baseball isn’t idyllic. It isn’t pure. It isn’t virtuous. It is what it is: a messy and ethically compromised endeavor in doing whatever it takes to win. That’s what it’s always been. Steroids didn’t change that, it it isn’t even the most egregious instance of it. Do whatever you want with Mark McGwire. I honestly don’t care, because I never really liked the guy. History, though, is something I care about very deeply, and this crusade damages that.
J. Michael Neal
@General Winfield Stuck: Apparently, you got nothing, so you’d prefer to avoid the question. Have fun with your poutrage.
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: All right, hon. Just for you. Puppehs!
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: OH! MAH! GRAVEY!! ME WANT!! They look so comfy lazing around on that couch!!
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: Aren’t they gorgeous? Don’t be fooled, though. Daisy (the tan one) is very active. I haven’t met Luna yet.
General Winfield Stuck
@J. Michael Neal:
Poutrage? No, I think you are a dishonest debater making mendacious arguments while building a platoon of strawmen, and it is not the first time you have done this, and I will not waste my time tearing them down. I would laugh, but you seem to be not all that well glued together right now. I have made my argument why I think the baseball records these cheaters have broken should be marked with an asterisk for all time, short of washing the records clean which cannot be done. It is my opinion and one that most agree with. it is not a legal argument.
Listen to Yutsano, he is making sense where you are orbiting BJ with your usual nebulous bullshit.
CaseyL
@asiangrrlMN:
Hope it’s OK that I looked too. And, good lord, those are beautiful LARGE “puppehs.” I love how they have their own couch. (That is their own couch, right?)
Yutsano
@J. Michael Neal: Your argument is, essentially, condemn them all or condemn none. Never mind the fact that you refuse to recognize that the physiological effects of speed are remarkably different from an anabolic steroid. Amphetamines do not permanently change the structure of the player’s body, steroids do. The fact that you are incapable of making that distinction completely baffles me. You are well within your rights to condemn them all, in fact I’m actually sympathetic to that argument. I see steroids as harming the game of baseball much more than speed ever did, for the reason that affecting alertness temporarily is far different from affecting permanent change in the body.
BTW I just want to say I appreciate you being willing to dissent without resorting to ad hominem or name calling. It’s refreshing.
Yutsano
@CaseyL: I have zero issue sharing puppeh pics. They really are too beautiful to not share. BTW did A Mom Anon ever show off her new arrival? If so I think I missed that.
asiangrrlMN
@CaseyL: No problem at all! Puppehs should be shared with EVERYONE!
@Yutsano: She hasn’t…yet. I’m giving her a day or two to settle the new pup in, and then I’m badgering her for pics.
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: It’s not like it’s not the first time we’ve shared. Like…uhh…yeah. That. He knows who he is.
Gonna drop you a quick note to make cookie arrangements.
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: We’re VERY good at sharing ‘coz we’re freelovin’ sockulists! Will check my email.
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: It should have arrived by now. I’m just gonna drool over the puppehs for awhile. ME STILL WANT!!
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: Got it. Name recognition FAIL on my part! D’oh!
Chuck Butcher
@Yutsano:
Keep in mind that large dogs are … well, large. People tend to forget little issues like table clearing tails and really big piles of poop. That doesn’t begin to touch on the indoor havoc created by large poundage deciding it’s play time or issues like jumping up on people.
I’m very fortunate with Gus, he’s calm and he’s careful, that is nothing like the rule. Most of my life I’ve had big dogs – 130# up to Gus’ 150#.
J. Michael Neal
@Yutsano:
No, that isn’t my argument. Really, it’s entirely irrelevant to my argument. My point is that what happened is what happened, and trying to make post facto determinations of what is legitimate and what isn’t is a pointless exercise. Condemn whoever you want, but that’s a separate issue from what you include in the record books. Trying to do that only gets you into a morass from which there is no escape, because you need some sort of objective rules as to what should and shouldn’t be considered an official record, and you just can’t write them.
Moral outrage, and thus condemnation, is different. That is a subjective endeavor. If you want to be upset at Mark McGwire the human being, go right ahead. I’m not going to join you, for a variety of reasons, but I won’t object. Mark McGwire the baseball player, however, hit 583 home runs with a career .394 on-base percentage and a .588 slugging percentage. For a period of four years, he had hit more home runs in a single season than anyone else ever had.
That is, quite simply, what happened, and I have never found a set of arguments as to why his accomplishments should be delegitimized while those of other people are not to be convincing. That’s not because I don’t think that steroids aided performance, or because I don’t think that they are harmful, or even that I think that you should either condemn everyone or no one. It’s because, with the possible exception of a very narrow range of actions (that don’t even discredit one’s place in the record books, as the lack of an asterisk for Rose’s hits record despite his having been betting on Reds’ games during the period that he set it), I don’t think that it’s possible to draw useful dividing lines.
What happened is what happened. We need to make sure that we understand the context in order to decide whether Barry Bonds’ accomplishments are really greater than those of Henry Aaron, given that he was taking steroids, and that he played in an era of bandbox stadiums, and other things. We also need to understand the context in order to decide whether Bob Gibson’s 1.12 ERA under very favorable conditions in 1968 is really the greatest pitching performance of the post-1919 era. I’d argue that Bonds’ accomplishments were greater than those of Aaron, despite (and I do mean despite) the steroids, though it’s pretty close and rests on things other than the number of home runs hit; Aaron was, in my mind, a better pure home run hitter. I also think that Gibson’s 1968 was not only not the best performance of the modern era (I’d go with Pedro Martinez in 1999), I don’t even think that it’s particularly close to the top five.
All of those are, at least partially, subjective judgments, though. The *record book* tells us that Bob Gibson had the lowest single-season ERA since Dutch Leonard in 1914. It tells us that Barry Bonds hit more home runs in a major league uniform than any other player in history did. The record book is a myopic idiot, since it tries to tell us that things that weren’t the most impressive accomplishments by a particular measure really were. It’s important to understand that, in terms of real quality, the record book is wrong. However, it is what it is, and starting to decide what is a legitimate record and what isn’t, within the record books themselves, is dumb. It’s an attempt to pretend that the record book can ever give us a list of what the greatest achievements are. It’s an attempt to avoid having to think about it, and it will always mislead.
It baffles me, too, since I never argued that. I never said that the physiological effects of the two aren’t remarkably different. You are off base when you argue that steroids permanently change a player’s body, because the effects are actually transient; stop taking them, and the benefits disappear rather quickly. I readily acknowledge, though, that those effects are certainly *different* than those of amphetamines.
The distinction that I can’t draw is that the net effects of steroids are greater than those of amphetamines. I’m not sure that there even is a way to try to assess that, but it’s certainly not anything there is any data on.
How is it different within the specific argument of how much effect it had on players’ performance? Aside from the fact that you are wrong on the temporary/permanent distinction involved, there is no reason at all why a temporary difference has less effect than a permanent one. This is particularly true if a temporary change can be maintained indefinitely. At that point, there really is no difference between two things, even merely in terms of their level of permanence. That isn’t necessary, though. Think through your own life, and you’ll probably come up with examples where a temporary change had more effect than some other permanent change you have undergone. If you can’t, I certainly can.
Xenos
@kay:
I am coming to the conclusions that a great number of us Americans, after decades of being told that they are the greatest in the world, and that they can do anything they like, and a little bit of effort they can have every luxury, are just fed up with their moral, social, and physical poverty. All that cynicism, all that hatred and selfishness is just the outward manifestation of a fatal self-hatred.
We are pretty much choosing to commit suicide, like Richard Corey.
valdivia
To the swing voter upthread–yes the teabaggers are coming out in force for this but note that his money bomb came almost 100% from out of state. The 1 million is not money all donated by locals. Not that it matters since the money can be used for get out the vote etc. and that changes things on the ground. It’s good to see the dems getting their ass in gear for this unlike Va and NJ Coakley has been ahead all the time, her numbers are not collapsing, its more that his numbers have edged up as he has been up in the air for a while and she has done nothing. Also as a note of caution–the Rass poll out saying its a 2 point race was a one night poll which has a much smaller sample number then the first poll which was few night and had the race at 9. So while I think this is close I think the persuading job in now on our court and we have to do it. If you can’t give money call ALL YOUR FRIENDS in Mass and get them to call their friends and and make them go vote.
Napoleon
I am in!
No Blood for Hubris
Me, too.
No Blood for Hubris
Really, you would think that Brown having come right out and supported torture by waterboarding would have pretty much done him in as a candidate.
You’d think.
But you’d be wrong.
qwerty42
@John Cole: Jane Hamsher really is not the enemy.
I agree. I admire her and Marcy and the rest. They are fighting the good fight to move the window the the left. I think they are wrong on this particular issue, but their hearts are in the right place. But I can’t read them right now because I think they are off the rails in this.
FormerSwingVoter
@valdivia:
Yes, someone else mentioned the out-of-state money earlier in the thread. Almost all of that money is from outside of Mass., but in a special election turning out the vote is the most important part. Whoever gets more people to the polls on a cold day in January with nothing else on the ballot will win this.
As far as the polling, Ras isn’t the only one seeing a tight race. PPP (with a three-day poll) showed a one-point Brown lead a few days ago, and the internals are bad enough that the national Dems are finally getting involved.
Also, I would like to repeat your last point: if you know someone in Mass, please remind them to vote on Tuesday!
($6,500! We’re 2/3rds there!)
twiffer
@J. Michael Neal: i think we should go back to the those purer times in baseball when the worst thing a player could do was throw the world series.
Mary
@qwerty42: It doesn’t really matter where their hearts are when everything they do is destructive. They are not moving the Overton window to the left. They are, in fact, “useful idiots” to the right wing, in the same manner as Ralph Nader, albeit with a lot less reach.
So whether they are corrupt or just misguided simply doesn’t matter.
area man
@twiffer:
Heheh, yep. When I hear people up on their soapbox about “restoring the purity of the game!!eleventy!” I’m forced to wonder if they are at all familiar with the history of baseball. I remember reading once about a Giants/Dodgers game back in the 60s when the Giants infield crew absolutely soaked the infield until it was turned to mud to preven the fleet footed Dodgers (particularly Maury Wills, IIRC) from stealing bases. Poor sportsmanship? You bet. Perfectly allowable? Yep.
I’m pretty much where Mr. Neal is on this issue and while I appreciate the passion and dissapointment of folks like General Stuck, it just ain’t as black and white as all that.
General Winfield Stuck
@area man:
Nice quote, but I don’t think anyone here made it. Certainly not me. But comparing use of steroids to mechanical tricks by teams and players is kind of well, absurd.
And throwing the 1919 world series was dealt with harshly by MLB. Just ask the ghost of Shoeless Joe Jackson. No dirty trick or abuse of substances has so directly affected a single aspect of baseball anywhere near the rampant use of steroids, affecting arguably the most important individual stat and it’s vaunted records. Home Runs.
And pointing to other “impure” practices to justify one speaks for itself as a unviable argument.
area man
Look, reasonable people can disagree, etc., and my snark about ‘restoring the purity of the game’ was just a general take on this debate and not something I meant for you personally. This whole debate on steroids in baseball has been fraught with so much moralizing and hypocrisy on the part of the league, players unions and fans that I’m pretty much done with it.
I’m just saying that I’ve read yours and Neal’s statements and I think his take is the more reasonable one. If we’re really going to go about handing out asterisks for the ‘steroid era’ then why not the ‘amphetamine era’ or the ‘whites only era’ or the ‘elevated mound era’? You kind of failed to respond to his question around that and instead started on about strawmen. Which? Fine if that’s your take but I think it’s a mug’s game and kinda silly because different eras of baseball are basically incomparable. If you want to take that as me somehow ‘endorsing’ steroids, well, go ahead but that would be a bad faith move on your part.
I’m a big fan of the game and I can tell that you must be, too, to be this passionate about it. What I can’t personally say with any certainty is the degree to which steroids affected the stats when you have so many other competing factors (park size changes, suspicions of ball structure changes, dilution of pitchng talent due to expansion, etc.) Quantifiable data is lacking and that leaves me wondering where all this stentorian moral certainty comes from.
Example: There was a guy on the Giants a few years ago named Bobby Estalella. Built like a freaking WWF monster and, yeah, when he connected right he could hit the ball a long way. But those were few and far between, to the Giants’ dismay. Does he get an asterisk for his paltry home run totals as they were doubtless roid-aided? Seems kinda silly. Since testing results are spotty and (supposedly) sealed, who doesn’t get an asterisk for that era?
Like I said, I thnk Neal’s is the more realistic take on this but feel free to get up on your back legs and stand athwart history demanding asterisks :) I think it’s an interesting debate and I’ve enjoyed reading the exchange. Enough so I even dropped out of lurk mode.
General Winfield Stuck
@area man:
Nope, what is incomparable is the effect of steroids on the human body as performance enhancement, compared with amphetamines, or anything else.
And I am passionate about this, and have a little personal experience by playing baseball in HS, Legion, and college. This is about bat speed and the great enhancement steroids had on it, and nothing else, NOTHING else compares. Not close.
And I don’t demand anything, asterisks or otherwise, just my opinion that you and Neal are aguing out yer arses, from my high horse of course.:)
area man
@General Winfield Stuck:
Hell, what other kind of horse would a General ride? :P
Hey, I played, too and loved it. At least until it became clear that I couldn’t hit a curve ball and was thence consigned to ardent spectator. I get that you feel strongly about it and I certainly share the opinion that steroids are a bad element in sports and I wish to FSM they’d never been used.
However, if expressing doubt about the magnitude of the impact of steroids on baseball is ‘arguing out my arse’, well, so be it. I think there’s room for dissent in this and that, absent any real data quantifying the impact of steroids on the game, arse-based arguing is all we really have. Which isn’t to say that isn’t an engaging pastime, heh.
So, in the parlance of our times, ‘back atcha’. :)
General Winfield Stuck
@area man:
And my snark about “arguing out yer arse” was just a general take on this debate and not something I meant for you personally.
A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And this one’ll talk ’til his voice is hoarse.
You never heard of a talking horse?
area man
@General Winfield Stuck:
I c wot u did there!! Heh. Fair enough and nice talking with you.
General Winfield Stuck
@area man:
Ditto, don’t be a stranger :-)
Padraig's Ghost
I SENT MY CONTRIBUTION TO SCOTT BROWN AND VOLUNTEERED TO HELP HIM OUT. I GREATLY DISLIKE MARTHA COAKLEY. FOR SUCH A LIBERAL PERSON SHE IS A REAL FASCIST! WHO ELSE IS HER EX-HOCKEY PLAYING MUCK RACKING THUG, MICHAEL MEEHAN GOING TO BEAT UP BEFORE THE ELECTION? THEN WE HAVE THE SEIU AND ACORN FOLKS COME TO TOWN. ANDY STERN IS A OPPERTUNITIST SCUMBAG WHO SELLS HIS PEOPLE DOWN THE DRAIN BY NEGOTIATING WITH COMPANY MANAGEMENT BEFORE UNIONIZING THE WORKERS. THE HE DELIVERS CHICKENSHIT BENIFITS FOR THE NEW UNION MEMBERS WHILE TAKING 8% OF THEIR FOR HIS FABIAN SOCIALIST SLUSH FUND. MY GOAL IN 2010 IS TO DISTROY THE NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY. (HOWEVER, IT SEEMS THAT THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE THIS TO THEMSELVES…) THE ONCE GREAT PARTY OF THE PEOPLE IS NOW THE SOCIALIST PEOPLES PARTY. THE PROGRESSIVE-COLLECTIVISTS, COMMUNITARIANS, ECO-TOTALITARIANS, AND OTHER COMMUNIST LOVING FORCES OF EVIL HAVE KILLED THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, AND NOW OCCUY ITS REANIMATED CORPSE LIKE SOMETHING OUT OF A BAD SCIENCE FICTION MOVIE. SCOTT BROWN IS A TYPICAL MASSACHUSETTS (HEY, I EVEN SPELLED THE STATE NAME RIGHT, TO BAD MARTHA’S PEOPLE CAN’T…) PERRIER AND VOLVO REPUBLICAN, BUT HE WILL DO. I AM A HISTORICALLY CONSERVITIAVE DEMOCRAT AND WE WILL TAKE BACK THE ONCE GREAT PARTY OF THE PEOPLE FROM THE COLLECTIVIST SCUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.S. PLEASE PRAY FOR AND CONTRIBUTE TO THE HATIAN RELIEF EFFORT. ALSO, KOODOS TO PRESIDIENT OBAMA FOR THE EARLY RELIEF EFFORT FOCUS IN HAITI. ON THIS SINGLE POINT HE IS DOING A MUCH MUCH BETTER JOB THAN PRESIDENT BUSH DID WITH KATRINA!