I’m honestly hard pressed to think of anyone who I can tolerate less than Lanny Davis, who I think really embodies everything wrong about the Democratic party and politics in general, but contained in this ridiculous piece blaming the left for the Coakley defeat is this:
The Democrats have a simple message on health care that has still not really gotten through: If our bill passes, you never have to worry about getting, or losing, health insurance for the rest of your life. How is it that so few people have heard that message?
Putting aside the fact that according to what I have read, the left came out to vote, he is right about the messaging. We hear all sorts of talk about procedural hoops to get to HCR, we hear about all sorts of nonsense about the bully pulpit, we hear all sorts- well, I could go on forever. The simple fact of the matter Democrats have talked about the need for health care reform for decades, and then, when it came time to sell it, they fell flat on their faces.
Never having to worry about losing your health insurance again is such an appealing proposition. I would gladly pay several thousand dollars more a year in taxes for this kind of security. Banning pre-existing conditions is huge. But somehow or another it all got lost in the chants of death panels and socialism. For that, I think you can blame the Democrats from the top down. It is a potent message, and it just never was passed on to the public in a meaningful way.
One other thing- I know I am a cantankerous prick who can not help himself from goading progressives, but to blame HCR failure on the progressive left is just flat out absurd. If HCR dies, the blame lies solely on the moderates and the Republicans and the Obama administration. The Republicans voted down the line against any and all reform, the centrists never really wanted it or added so many poison pills that it became impossible to move on the bill. And even with all the legislative insults to progressive sensibilities and the removal of so many provisions they wanted, you know who was still willing to suck it up and vote for reform- the progressive wings of the House and Senate.
The reason that online progressives have driven me insane is that they seem immune to the political realities- Joe Lieberman is a sanctimonious prick who is going to vote against anything he and Marshall Wittmann think will piss off the Jane Hamshers of the left. He as much as admitted that with his Medicare buy-in reversal. Evan Bayh is a posturing fool who is only where he is because of his gene pool, and he will do or say whatever he can to prove how very moderate and reasonable and sensible he is and get himself back on Imus. And on and on with them through Lincoln and Nelson and the whole crowd. Screaming about the bully pulpit or pushing to have Rahm fired and then investigated or attacking Democrats with right-wing talking points was never going to change those realities. The moderates and Republicans never really wanted a bill, and the liberals and progressives are without leverage. And then you have that asshole Stupak and his band of brothers at the Family.
The whole thing is just frustrating, and now it appears the Dems are going to run away from it.
freelancer
But Droopy (Droopy-CT) never explicitly said he wanted to piss off Jane Hamsher. So why would you say “the Jane Hamshers of the left”?
tballou
“…you never have to worry about getting, or losing, health insurance for the rest of your life.”
That is a total crock of shit – if you cannot afford to pay the premiums, which are already sky high and will go only higher under the current plans, the insurance companies will gladly cancel your policy.
BR
I just called the white house and told them that the feelings of the senate aren’t important – getting secure health care for millions is what matters. And I demanded the house pass the senate bill and the president support that. The white house needs to hear it too.
Zuzu's Petals
Agree 100%.
John Cole
@freelancer: I see what you did there.
Svensker
If you want to get really depressed, read this e-mail from a Congressional staffer over at TPM.
J. Michael Neal
@tballou: As is typical, you are only reading a part of the bill. You leave out the subsidies. That’s the thing about health care reform. No single piece of it makes any sense in isolation; it’s only as a package that it works. Yes, there is an individual mandate; without one, community rating doesn’t work. To compensate for that, there are subsidies and other items. Look at the whole thing.
You are also completely wrong that there is nothing that holds down the cost of a policy. To be allowed into the exchange, there are limits as to how much policies can cost. Further, the 8% of income tax for the fine to apply if one doesn’t buy insurance provides a cap on premiums; if the companies charge more than that, they can’t make anyone buy them. The *only* way they benefit from an individual mandate is if they stay under the cap. That’s a big incentive to avoid huge price increases.
For God’s sake, people, try to understand the whole bill, and not just small pieces of it.
The Grand Panjandrum
I think this letter JMM posted from a Senate staffer says a lot about Democrats. Basically, what we have is a bunch of cowards who don’t know what they stand for. THAT is why the message has been so weak all along.
We’ve elected a bunch of feckless pussies. Not all of them. But enough of them so that Democrats are either unwilling or unable to govern.
Great. In a two party system we don’t have ONE that can actually fucking govern.
The House should pass the Senate HCR intact. If Obama thinks Brown should have the opportunity to weigh in, fine. Then let him veto the motherfucker.
Osprey
via Jim Newell at Wonkette:
Always cheers me up when Joe Fuckstick is mentioned.
BTD
Cole writes:
The reason that online progressives have driven me insane is that they seem immune to the political realities
That is funny given the fact Balloon Juice is now urging its readers to call the House to vote for the Senate bill.
You call that political realism? A major Dem constituency, the unions, finds the excise tax unacceptable. Do you really think the House has a chance of rounding up 218 votes for the Senate bill stand alone? Really?
See, this is what annoys me about this type of commentary. Get a freaking mirror.
Deborah
Elevator pitches. Like Lanny’s.
And a few simple memorable faces: Carrie can’t get health insurance for less than $2000 a month because she had a health problem 18 years ago. With this bill she can get it for $300 a month.
Even those of us who support the bill have a hard time saying exactly what’s in it and what it will and won’t do. That’s a big problem.
Here’s hoping they learn something when they go after finance reform. KISS. Even if the legislation is complex, you should be able to explain and promote it simply.
The Grand Panjandrum
@Svensker: Ooops. I just saw I linked to the same one you did. But it is quite telling. The Congressional Democrats don’t know what they stand for. Says a lot.
Chris Andersen
John,
Just thought I’d let you know that your blog has now supplanted DailyKos as my first-blog-I-check-when-I-log-in. It’s postings like this that have made this so. You rail against the progressives who have more anger than logic behind their strategy, but you don’t let that criticism fool you into thinking that that group has anything to do with why this effort has reached such a precarious point.
Thank you for offering a voice of sanity in the wilderness.
Chris Andersen
@BTD:
It’s admittedly a long-shot (and growing longer every minute as hapless Dem Congressman fails to resist the urge to speak to cameras). But is a better shot than *any* of the options that currently exist. That’s called accepting reality.
I’m going to say something that I’ve been thinking for some time but that I was hesitant to say out loud because it just sounds so outrageous: Rumsfeld was right. You fight with the army you have, not the army you’d like to have.
(Rumsfeld’s mistake was not in the incorrectness of his assessment but in the fact that he said it out loud *to the troops*.)
beltane
Health care was supposed to be a bailout of the American people, one that was richly deserved after we were forced to bail out the very banks who screw each and every one of us on a daily basis. It is maddening that those who want Americans to enjoy what the rest of the civilized world takes for granted have no leverage and very little say in the process.
Thoughcrime
@Svensker:
This is what the whiney-ass “minority Party” Congressional Democrats need: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2jAwiq6YsE
scudbucket
@Chris Andersen: It’s admittedly a long-shot (and growing longer every minute
AFL-CIO doesn’t want the house to ram through the senate bill. I think it’s done.
BTD
@Chris Andersen:
You admit it is not realistic. You CLAIM is is the best shot now. Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong. Personally I am pretty confident you are wrong. Consider that everyone has abandoned this line and is looking at other options, most notably fixing the Senate bill with a reconciliation package for simultaneous passage.
But what you or I think are realistic is not the point. It is Cole’s claim to be the holder of the “realism.” He isn’t.
That is what is annoying. He is the hlder of an opinion about what is realistic. As you are and as I are. This special claim of “realism” is ridiculous.
DonBelacquaDelPurgatorio
Well, this thread appears to be basically gratuitous churn, in which people with nothing to do begin writing the obituaries for a set of measures that are not yet dead, so as be able to be first in line to start pointing the fingers.
Okay, fine, whatever. But as I watch this unfold, what strikes me about the divisions over healthcare is that the two sides do not appear to be listening to each other.
We all know what the opponents of HCR want … the status quo. As bad as the present system is, and it sucks, there are legitimate reasons to be doubtful that the government — FOR WHATEVER REASON — (I put that in caps only so that it doesn’t disappear into the ethers) is going to be able to handle the solutions to the problems. After you take away the death panels and the silly sociaIism objections, you have real concerns that the same outfit that can’t keep bridges from falling down might not be the folks you want running your healthcare system. America appears to be falling apart at the seams, and the people who got it that way want to be in charge of your doctor and your hospital? Uh, can I see the second option, please?
And on the other side, the proponents of Status Quo don’t seem to understand that people simply cannot be left out of the healthcare system, as they are now. Citizens unlucky enough to have small employers who can’t participate in a nice robust shared risk group, or who are unlucky enough to get between jobs, or whatever, cannot be left with nothing but emergency rooms for their standard of medical care.
The status quo is not sustainable, and the solution is not very popular owing to the ugly noisy shit that surrounds the solution process.
Forget R and D as your frame, think about the real nature of the political challenges here, and stop talking as if one side can just shove its point of view down the other side’s throat. Whichever side wins a skirmish or a battle here and there cannot win the war that way.
My retirement shifts a long way from scary to non-scary if we get nothing more than removal of preexisting condition restrictions. Nobody can tell me that such a thing is not eminently doable in this country without the circus we have watched for the last ten months.
Ed in NJ
I’m ecstatic to see Evan Bayh getting challenged by Mike Pence. After all his pandering to the right, he’s going to get fucked, just like he deserves.
Nellcote
Is Bayh campaigning to be majority leader?
El Tiburon
AARRGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
This what is so frustrating about you. The past few weeks and in this post you voice your frustration about the Hamsherite left. For what? For them BEING FRUSTRATED!
It seems to me it is the FDL crowd who are the only ones saying enough is enough. Enough compromise; enough kissing Lieberman’s ass. Enough of this bullshit.
So when they make a stand, oh boy, here it comes. They get blamed for, and I quote, “that they seem immune to the political realities…”
Really? Seems to me they are the only ones who have recognized the political realities. And the reality was that this clusterfuck of this so-called health care reform is going to kill the Democratic party. Exhibit A: Coakley in Mass.
I am simply amazed at the apparent obtuseness of some people. Now it is my head about to explode.
ChrisWWW
Maybe we shouldn’t be so worried. In a few more years, health care spending will actually bankrupt our country and we’ll be taken over by Canada.
Glocksman
My sticking point is the excise tax in the Senate bill.
Frankly when it comes down to the choice of experts for this layman to trust, do I believe Ezra Klein or Maggie Mahar?
I’m with MM. :)
cleek
it’s shocking that the party who let Ted Fucking Kennedy’s seat get sniped in a special election in the middle of the HCR process would also fail to do something as simple as tell the country WTF they’re doing.
shocking
Mary
@BTD: That’s right John. How dare Balloon Juice go against its progressive betters and tell its readers how to contact their reps to vote for the Senate bill.
J. Michael Neal
All that said, I just wrote an angry e-mail to the White House. I find their performance over the last 24 hours to be disgraceful. Going back to Olympia Snowe is pathetic.
DonBelacquaDelPurgatorio
@ChrisWWW:
Ah, well, then, that’s fine. That’s a fine solution AFAIC.
I admire the Canadians for their bacon and also their whiskey. A country that can do good bacon and whiskey cannot be all bad.
Malron
John, I think you need to calm down and read Tim’s blog post that precedes yours.
CT Voter
The simple fact of the matter Democrats have talked about the need for health care reform for decades, and then, when it came time to sell it, they fell flat on their faces.
Was it simply incompetence, or a deliberate decision on their part?
That’s the state of mind I’m in today.
DonBelacquaDelPurgatorio
Can we please make this absurd moniker part of the BJ Lexicon and then ban its use? There is no Kennedy Seat in the senate. The Kennedy seat was bolted onto the backside of Kennedy, and got buried with him.
That Kennedy Seat thinking is one reason why you have an empty suit in the seat now. It’s an arrogant and completely unrealistic way of looking at the thing.
Stop it. Just stop it.
Mnemosyne
Despite all of my hippie-punching, I don’t particularly blame the firebaggers, either. They didn’t help, but there’s plenty of blame to go around and lots of people (*cough*Congressional Democrats*cough*) who deserve a much larger share of it.
(Well, I sort of blame Jane Hamsher for having a personal feud going with Joe Lieberman that I’m convinced helped push him away from Medicare buy-in for 55+, but short of getting into a time machine and running the Lamont campaign better, there’s not much we can do about that.)
beltane
@Nellcote: He’s campaigning for Minority Leader. That way he can rake in the lobbyist cash without having to pretend to do work.
J. Michael Neal
@Glocksman:
Yes, I understand that everyone wants someone else to bear the costs of health care reform. Tough. You can’t have your pony. I find it appalling that you get your health insurance tax free, while I don’t. What the hell is the justification for that?
El Cid
Obama’s coming out fired up & throwing punches:
Obama now seeks pared-down health care bill
By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON – Chastened by the Democratic Senate loss in Massachusetts, President Barack Obama and congressional allies signaled Wednesday they will try to scale back his sweeping health care overhaul in an effort to at least keep parts of it alive.
A simpler, less ambitious bill emerged as an alternative only hours after the loss of the party’s crucial 60th Senate seat forced the Democrats to slow their all-out drive to pass Obama’s signature legislation and reconsider all options.
No decisions have been made, lawmakers said, but they laid out a new approach that could still include these provisions: limiting the ability of insurance companies to deny coverage to people with medical problems, allowing young adults to stay on their parents’ policies, helping small businesses and low-income people pay premiums and changing Medicare to encourage payment for quality care instead of sheer volume of services.
Obama urged lawmakers not to try to jam a bill through, but scale the proposal down to what he called “those elements of the package that people agree on.”
“We know that we need insurance reform, that the health insurance companies are taking advantage of people,” the president said in an interview with ABC News. “We know that we have to have some form of cost containment because if we don’t then our budgets are going to blow up. And we know that small businesses are going to need help.”
Another option, which called for the House to try to quickly pass the Senate version of the broader bill — bypassing the Senate problem created by the loss of the Massachusetts seat to Republican Scott Brown — appeared to be losing favor.
“That’s a bitter pill for the House to swallow,” said the No. 2 Senate Democrat, Dick Durbin of Illinois.
This is a good strategy, because by making the bill friendlier to the people who oppose it, it will make Democrats look stronger. Maybe Obama should hold some town halls with Olympia Snowe and see if maybe Chuck Grassley will support the revised, shrunken, weaker bill.
Also he should have another dinner with David Brooks, who always has a good feel for
Applebee’sthe American people, who clearly were striking back at Democrats’ overly ambitious agenda.BTD
@Mary:
there you go again Mary. I applaud your activism. fight for what you want to have happen.
But please, stow the fucking condescension and stop pretending you understand the “political realities” better than anyone else. You have an opinion. No more. No less. you are not endowed with some special ability to discern the “polticial realities.”
On the Senate Stand alone bill, by this point in the day, after all that has happened, you must see it will not be passed by the House stand alone. If it is passed at all, it willl be done when a deal is struck on a companion reconciliation bill. Maybe just on the excise tax. But that deal needs to be struck.
Here is a freaking political reality for you – there are not 218 Democrats ready to fuck over the labor unions. They need them for the election in November.
SpotWeld
Think of all the ads that could be played out on this concept alone.
Wife: “We have enough money saved up to go a while without work, we can take the time off to get your own company started. It’ll be our dream to work for outselves”
Husband: “But with my heart… if something happened, we’d never be able to cover it. We need the insurance I get through work. ”
Voiceover: “American is the land of opportunity, but how many Americans have to give up that benefit simply to maintain freedom from health…”
Nellcote
@scudbucket:
not quite
TJ
From what I know of the Senate bill that’s not really true. At least not for 3-4 years. Prior conditions are banned only to the extent that the insurance vampires can only charge triple premiums. You have to wait for the exchanges, where, through the magic of the free market, wonderful plans will appear for those unfortunates.
Also rescission will be banned, except in the case of fraud. Which is what the vampires use now.
You have to wait for the good shit, like subsidies and Medicaid expansion.
BTD
@J. Michael Neal:
You can’t get the House to pass the Senate bill unless you address this concern.
That is, to coin a phrase, a political reality.
Edward G. Talbot
Here’s the thing I wonder. Is it possible for dems – with a dozen Senators and three dozen blue dog reps willing to adopt Republican talking points at the drop of a hat – to change the framing of the debate?
because you’re right, a lot of yesterday was about perception. I think it has way more to do with the economy that NCR, but people think the dems have failed to do anything other than serve corporate interests. Add a natural distrust of government from independents and you have the group who went 2-1 for Obama last year going 3-1 for Brown this year.
The reality-based question has no easy answer as far as I can see – how can dems actually change their perception? Given that quite a few dems are in fact beholden to corporate America, I’m not sure how they pull it off. And as long as indys think that dems are essentially the same as repubs in that regard, dems are in trouble.
BTD
@Nellcote:
Pretty much quite. They need a fix on the excise tax.
Thoroughly Pizzled
@El Cid: I thought this was what a lot of people wanted. Pass everything in separate bills? Pass what we can now, then pass the public option through reconciliation?
Mnemosyne
@El Tiburon:
So Coakley made no mistakes in her campaign and this is all due to people hating healthcare reform?
Funny, that’s exactly what the Republicans are saying, too. When John was going on rampages about people using right-wing frames, that’s exactly the kind of thing he’s talking about. If conservatives and liberals are saying the same thing — healthcare reform sucks and it shouldn’t be passed — who do you think looks like the heroes?
SnarkyShark
Appreciate the post. I was starting to think you were turning into a reflexive hippie basher. Political reality is a subjective matter, and the reality is that the Dem brain trust reflex to always go right is the problem.
As you acknowledge, there in lies the problem.
And you got some overbearing so called centrist in here that are quite overbearing and in love with themselves.
Aint nothing in the center but skunks and drunks.
John Cole
The other thing that drives me crazy is the magical thinking. How is the “kill the bill and let’s get a better one started” caucus looking today?
polyorchnid octopunch
Someone said not too long ago that those of us from Canada have been watching this debate with a mixture of pity (those poor bastards don’t even know how badly they’re getting anally violated) and horror (there but for the and all that).
The message hasn’t gotten out because your media companies don’t want it out. It’s as simple as that.
Mnemosyne
@El Cid:
Gee, you mean the exact thing that I said was going to happen if Coakley lost is happening? That the “message” that got sent was that people didn’t want healthcare reform, not that they didn’t like the specific bill? That the Democrats are now assuming that they lost because they went too far to the left and have to steer back towards the right?
I guess I should change my nym to Cassandra at this point.
cat48
@johncole You’re absolutely correct. The best selling I have seen from Obama was near the end when he started saying you would never have to worry again about going broke because you got sick. Simple is better. Someone like Weiner is on TV constantly but he only whines that single payer was never on the table. Never took the time to explain what was on the table would be good for folks & why.
I would also pay more not to worry about health insurance ever again. Just simple……
batgirl
@El Cid: Fuckity-fuck-fuck-fuck. That is all.
BTD
@John Cole:
How’s the “get the House to vote for the Senate bill” caucus looking today?
Thoughcrime
@CT Voter:
Answer: Both
I really can’t wait for their messaging and strategies during the next fights over Social Security and Medicare.
J. Michael Neal
@Mnemosyne:
I should make it clear that I’m training my fire on the House progressives right now because I think that they are at least persuadable. The unstated premise here is that the moderates in the Senate are so fucking worthless that there’s no point in hectoring them. They are, absolutely, without a doubt, much more to blame for this mess than the House progressives are. The problem is that they like it that way. They are perfectly content with the status quo, and that means that there’s no leverage with them.
My disagreements with the people who want to reject the Senate bill is that I think they are wrong on the facts: it is an improvement on what we have now. I think it takes a pretty severe misreading of it to justify the claims that are being made against it. It isn’t anything close to ideal, but it’s better than nothing. Therefore, I argue with them that we should pass it, because a disagreement over the facts can be resolved.
My disagreements with Senate moderates are much more severe, to the point that any time spent trying to persuade them is completely wasted. They don’t disagree on the facts; they disagree on basic attitude. They don’t fucking care about people who need these reforms. They care far more about the perks of their sinecures in the Senate and personal aggrandizement than they do about policy. Arguing with people who so radically fail basic tests of ethics can be fun sometimes, but not right now. It’s just not worth my time.
So, I argue with the left, because I hold out some hope that they can be persuaded.
liberty60
@Ed in NJ:
And just like with Lieberman and all the Blue Dogs, if he thinks his “moderation” and pandering will endear him to the hearts of the Republicans he will get his ass handed to him.
Moderation and compromise work when the other side is engaged and motivated to do likewise- but the Khmer Rouge Teabaggers have taken over the GOP, and they wanting nothing less than absolute death to Obama and anyone who isn’t a Palinista.
Edited to add- There was a time, maybe 15 year ago, when you had GOPs like Dole, Kemp, Wiecker, who would be amenable to good faith compromise. But those days are long gone.
Mary
@BTD: I’m not an activist. Just a blog commenter. But I did call my congressman, Chris Van Hollen, to tell him to pass the Senate bill. My understanding is that the votes exist in the Senate to fix the excise tax.
Andy Stern of SEIU says to pass the Senate bill. So does Jacob Hacker, the inventor of the public option.
gwangung
That’s kinda bullshit to me.
I’d believe it more if Brown wasn’t a state Senator that voted for a Massachusetts plan that very similar to the US plan. And if the exit polling I’ve seen placed the economy number one among the concerns among Brown voters.
El Cid
@Thoroughly Pizzled: No, I don’t think so. I’m pretty sure reconciliation would count as ‘ramming through’ for Obama; the Senate won’t vote for any revisions of the Senate bill favorable to anything the House might want.
Chris Andersen
@BTD:
That’s not the opposite of what I am talking about, it is an addendum. It still involves passing the Senate bill as is, but it also involves passing a reconcilliation bill at much the same time, then sending both to Obama to have him sign at the same time.
I suspect we are actually in favor of the same thing but that there is just a misunderstanding here.
freelancer
@El Cid:
Glocksman
@J. Michael Neal:
Are you merely obtuse or just being a motherfucking asshole?
I’ve made it clear time and time again that I have no problem whatsoever with a broad based tax hike that affects all equally (with appropriate tax credits as needed for those who can’t afford it) as a means of paying for HCR.
My problem is with a tax that disproportionately affects union workers who have the fucking bad luck to have an effective union that shielded them somewhat from the last 8 years of premium hikes despite the Bush administration’s best efforts to fuck them up the ass with a splintered utility pole.
Nevermind how it looks to the average union member when Mary Landwhore and Joe Lieberdouche keep saying that a tax hike on the top percentages of income is ‘unacceptable’ while taxing fucking blue collar union workers *is*.
Though I will say it’s nice to see that purity trolls are alive in the Democratic party today.
Just keep telling labor that we have to literally swallow yet another fucking in order to keep the demon Repubs out of office.
Never mind that you’re breeding a new generation of ‘Reagan Democrats’ by doing so.
Christ, I expect this kind of clueless reality resistant shit from the Repubs.
I just didn’t expect to find it so widespread among the alleged Democrats on this board.
No wonder the labor leaders I talked to at a regional training course were talking openly about forming a third party.
If I wanted to be fucked over, I’d vote Republican.
John S.
@BTD:
So in today’s episode of “The Left Adopts Rightwing Frames”, the House Democrats aren’t going to send a bill to Obama because the ‘evil and all powerful labor unions’ won’t let them?
That’s pretty awesome.
Chris Andersen
@El Tiburon:
I’m as frustrated as the next person. I have been for months. But what I criticize Hamsher for is not that she is frustrated but that her strategic response to that frustration is guaranteed to make things even worse.
BTD
@Mary:
Neither am I. I am just an asshole who write on a blog. Of course I agree with myself ,like everybody else.
But these special “political realism” powers, boy I sure wish I had those.
J. Michael Neal
@BTD:
What sort of change do you want? I agree that there is a better way to do it than the excise tax. If that’s your point, great. However, I think that something needs to be done along these lines. The excise tax is better than no fix at all.
My preferred form is to just treat income as income, no matter what form it comes in. The idea that some people get their health insurance without paying taxes on that money while the rest of us don’t is something that makes me angry. It also has effects that accelerate the cost of health insurance. Overall, exempting them from taxation is really bad policy. Changing it will hurt some people, no doubt, but that’s going to happen with any reform.
Chris Andersen
@CT Voter:
Never blame on malice that which can be easily explained by stupidity.
Stupidity is the second most plentiful substance in the universe.
Midnight Marauder
@BTD:
I’m pretty sure that’s the fucking impetus behind people here calling their representatives and telling them to pass this bill now. So that, once this bill is passed, the other problem areas can be addressed. Now, how those other problem areas get addressed is a whole different can of worms, but the point is that you can’t even get to that can of worms if you don’t pass the Senate bill. No one is saying “Just vote for this Senate Bill and we’ll figure it out later.” I think the developing idea is “There are still a lot of things we’ll need to fix, but none of that can happen unless you pass the Senate bill.” You know, kind of like those labor unions that Democrats aren’t “ready to fuck over” are now saying:
That’s the political reality driving people to make phone calls today. Honestly, half the time you show up here, I have no clue what it is you are actually trying to articulate as your point.
BTD
@Chris Andersen:
If we are, and if Balloon Juice is, then they need to reframe their phone scripts.
As of now, it reads as if they want a stand alone Senate bill, and imo, House Dems will be laughing about it. The unions matter to Dem officials.
That is political reality. Balloon Juice may want to take that reality into account in their activism.
Thoroughly Pizzled
@El Cid: But doesn’t the quote indicate that Obama does not want the House to just ram through the Senate bill? What I mean is that a lot of strategists said something to the order of, “Let’s pass the uncontroversial, less ambitious stuff now, then pass a public option and subsidies later through reconciliation.” I know a lot of voices were talking about that, maybe even Dean, although I’d have to verify that.
Obama is supposedly considering reconciliation for the rest of his agenda; I think his opposition to its use for this bill has to do more with the specific bill than a general dislike for it.
J. Michael Neal
@Glocksman:
This explains my problem with your thinking. This is not a tax that disproportionately affects union workers. This is a tax that partially, and only partially, removes a tax loophole that union workers, among others, have taken advantage of that the rest of us don’t get. You are going to the wall to defend an extraordinary privilege that you have.
You avoided my question. Tell me why you deserve this tax break that I don’t get. What makes you special?
Chris Andersen
@DonBelacquaDelPurgatorio:
I visited some relatives last year in Mass., before Kennedy died, and was surprised at just how much acrimony they had towards the Kennedy family. I think part of what happened here is that the general love Democrats have for the Kennedy mystique obscured the fact that a lot of Democrats actually didn’t like the Kennedy reality. This election was the first chance in 40+ years for that underlying sentiment to show itself.
BTD
@Midnight Marauder:
You think? Then you have a bad phone script. Your activism is badly framed.
Imo of course.
El Cid
I think the major arguments I’ve heard are that there are not 218 votes in the House by Democrats not because of all the patchouli-wearing left, but because there aren’t enough conservative and anti-abortion Democrats willing to vote for the Senate bill, whether or not they voted the 1st time.
But now the people of Massachusetts ‘have spoken’, and Senator Brown now ‘has to be part of that process’, says Obama, whatever the fuck that means.
Thoroughly Pizzled
@Chris Andersen: Agreed. I’ve always thought laziness should be added to that law as well.
Corner Stone
@Glocksman:
You left off Option 3.
MattR
Radnom idea I have not really thought through. It is way too late in the process for this to work, but I kinda wonder if it would have been a more effective strategy to dump the mandates and instead offer to subsidize the insurance companies directly for every dollar they spend on medical care that is more than 95% of their premiums.
BTD
@J. Michael Neal:
Forget what I want. Let’s be politically realisitic. If you want the House to pass the Senate bill, the unions have to sign off. They cut a deal already. I assumed that will suffice for them.
You need a reconciliation bill that makes that fix.
If you want to pass the Senate bill I mean.
that is the political reality.
El Cid
@Thoroughly Pizzled: I think that sounds very nice. I do not in the slightest think that’s what Obama is trying to so or aim for there.
jwb
@Chris Andersen: “Rumsfeld’s mistake was not in the incorrectness of his assessment but in the fact that he said it out loud to the troops.”
And that, like the rest of the Bush administration, he never had a plan B.
Glocksman
@BTD:
Exactly.
If Obama and the Senate Dems are expecting labor to meekly fall in line this time yet again being fucked over by the same alleged ‘Democrats’ since 1993, they are sadly mistaken.
I won’t vote Republican, but I damn well can say ‘fuck you’ and stay home on election day instead of doing the GOTV and fundraising efforts I normally do.
If the so-called ‘Democrats’ hadn’t spent so much time trying to fuck over labor over the last 20 years in the name of ‘free trade’, I’d give the leadership the benefit of the doubt.
But they did and I don’t.
Mary
@BTD: Well I know you don’t want John and his crew to shut up, do you BTD? I thought you guys were friends?
gogol's wife
@polyorchnid octopunch:
Exactly.
Glocksman
@BTD:
Indeed.
As I’ve already stated in multiple places, I’ll reluctantly support the compromise despite my personal belief that any revenue needed should be raised by either a transactional tax on stock trades and/or a tax hike for the upper 5% income brackets.
Instead of that, what we have are alleged Democrats arguing that it’s OK that the unionized working class take it up the ass yet again while staying silent WRT Landwhore’s comments about tax hikes on the upper 5% being unacceptable.
If HCR supporters are expecting my blind obedience to sign off on the Senate bill as passed, they’ll be sadly disappointed.
jwb
@J. Michael Neal: Yes, as if Snowe is going to be in the mood to bargain now. And if you get a deal with her, you’ll have to keep Lieberman, Nelson, Bayh, etc. No, if they are going to go this route, they’ll either have to start with a GOP proposal of some sort (what, I haven’t a clue) or revisit Wyden-Bennett.
Mary
@Glocksman: I admire your fight for your shop on the excise tax issue. I deplore what has happened to Labor since the days of Reagan.
Chris Andersen
It’s thinks like this that make me think the Democrats are still the party of George McClellan.
mclaren
Sorry, that’s crap. It’s a flat-out lie.
It’s not “mistaken,” it’s not “a distortion,” it’s a plain and simple lie.
If you don’t have health care insurance today the likely reason is that you make too little money. And if you make too little money to afford health care insurance today, this health care “reform” bill won’t do jack dick for you.
Go check.
Put in a figure like $8900 per year and see what health care providers are available to you. You know what kind of health care you get? You get medicaid, which is a code word for “you get zilch.” Because all the states are going broke and their medicaid is maxed out and getting shut down.
So if you don’t have health insurance right now, this bill won’t give it to you. If you’re working part time on minimum wage, suck it, bubba…this bill takes money out of your pocket because you’re above 150% of poverty wage, but you still can’t afford health insurance.
It really irritates me when flagrant lies like this get printed. If you work for yourself and just scrape by or work for minimum wage, you’re f%@*ed, stuck ‘n outa luck. This bill does nothing for you. And guess what, folks? Those are exactly the people who are unable to get health insurance coverage right now.
BTD
@Mary:
Of course I do not want him to shut up. More importantly, I have no power to shut him up.
But when he says something I think is ridiculous, I will point it out.
His claims of special political realism powers struck me as ridiculous.
geg6
@BTD:
I honestly never thought I’d find myself saying this, but you have been one of the few voices of reason here the last couple of days. I thank you for that.
Quiddity
Re messaging:
Last summer there was one of those health fairs in Inglewood California. Something like 10,000 people showed up for a basic exam, and some got (limited) treatment. The local press covered it.
At the same time Obama was on a western-states tour. After his last stop (in Arizona IIRC), he could have gone to the health fair to highlight the problems of those without insurance. But he didn’t. Nor did anyone from the administration.
And there have been a couple other health fairs (one in Arkansas) last year which were perfect opportunities to show “regular citizens” who were uninsured and needing help. Again, the administration was AWOL. Literally hundreds of poignant stories – the kind the press love to relate – were available to promote health care reform.
Failure to amplify the message (that HCR is important) meant that many people today don’t think it’s so urgent. And as a result they are indifferent, or worse, to the legislation that was being crafted in Congress. When people aren’t particularly pro-HCR, the Republicans can make serious inroads with scare tactics. And they did.
I wonder Obama can re-ignite the public’s awareness that the existing health care system is expensive, inefficient, and worse than those in other developed countries.
As to the message: “Never having to worry about losing your health insurance again”, I think a better one is “Never having to go bankrupt because of an illness” because it touches on something everyone worries about: money. “Losing coverage” is less scary, if only because people usually think that they’re in good health and won’t get ill.
jenniebee
@Glocksman:
False dichotomy. He’s both.
cleek
@DonBelacquaDelPurgatorio:
the hell it is.
if anything, a bit more of that thinking might have been enough to get the fucking Dem Party’s head out of its ass long enough to realize that it was an important election.
S. cerevisiae
It’s times like these that make me wish I was a Tico laying on the beach in Costa Rica. At least I would never have to worry about health insurance.
Glocksman
@geg6:
Marry me. :)
Granted, I’m old, poor, and overweight.
But I love you nonetheless. :LOL:
All kidding aside, thanks to the posters insisting that I should
take it up the ass without lubetrust my betters, I now have firsthand proof that the Repub favorite meme of ‘ivory tower liberal’ has a factual basis.Corner Stone
@BTD:
Where have you been for the last 18 months?
RareSanity
You know it’s pretty funny, this comment thread is a perfect microcosm of the problems in the Democratic Party AND the reason that I think a lot of people are “disappointed” with Obama’s performance thus far.
Although I think that some people expected “magic”, I for the most part expected coherence and direction.
I have witnessed neither.
I understand that directing the DFHs is like herding cats, but, I think with the momentum of the election victory and conservatives in disarray, it could have been pulled off. If, he struck when the iron was hot.
He is not to blame for everything but, I was expecting him to be the new Head Coach that takes over the losing team and teaches them to be winners. That usually happens by making examples of the biggest troublemakers/malcontents and getting everyone to buy in. This is where the failure has been, this could only have happened before the “The Summer of the Teabaggers”.
Alas, America is going to get exactly what it deserves over the next couple of years, a Congress full of decisive, “strong”, unwavering idiots.
@BTD: I don’t really understand what you hope to accomplish here. Do you want everyone to think you are the smartest person in the room? That “we” can’t handle you because you are “too real”? What exactly is your purpose other than a desperate need for attention?
EDIT: I know that last part sounded asshole-ish, but I am really curious…
J. Michael Neal
@jenniebee: Sigh. Did you bother to read my citations to the US Census Bureau data on individual health purchases? It demonstrates rather conclusively that you are wrong about adverse selection not being a problem without an individual mandate are wrong. If you look at the cross-tabs for young (18-30), well-off (household incomes greater than $50,000), healthy (those who rate their own health as Excellent) individuals who do not get insurance through their employer, you find that less than half of them bother to buy an individual policy. Health care reform will raise the price of those policies, so you will have even fewer of them buying. You must have an individual mandate, or it doesn’t work.
I’ve already posted the link, to a thread you were reading. I’m not going to do it again. If you want to see it, either go find that link, or go the Census Bureau’s survey on poverty and health insurance, and set up the cross-tabs for yourself.
In the meantime, I take your accusation as a compliment.
Midnight Marauder
@BTD:
What the fuck are you talking about, “a bad phone script”? Read through the threads today. The people making calls are telling their representatives just that. “Pass the Senate bill, and then fix it via reconciliation. Hell, just do both at the same time.” That’s exactly what labor is saying.
Again, I’m not even sure what you’re for or against anymore here. You just keep talking about how the Balloon Juice phone scripts need to be rewritten, and all that indicates to me is that your aren’t paying a lick of attention to what people are saying here in these threads. Which is not surprising, considering that you engage in this behavior on an almost daily basis now.
So tell me, BTD, since my activism is so poorly framed, what is the course of action that your humble opinion would advise?
J. Michael Neal
@Glocksman: I notice that you are avoiding my question, and opting to simply call me names. Why do you deserve a tax break that’s not available to the rest of us? Why should I take seriously someone whose primary objection to the bill is an insistence that his special privilege should be preserved?
Corner Stone
@Quiddity:
You expected him to use his Big Microphone to promote his signature issue? WTF is wrong with you?
Senators in thos states might have had their asses chapped that a light was being shone on the deplorable conditions of their serfs. And no one wants to risk chapping a Senator.
John Cole
This. One hundred Thousand Times This.
Christ, over the past two years I’ve gone from thinking that health care reform was inevitable because business can not compete and our system is untenable to where I am now, which is I don’t think anything short of something like the British NHS is going to solve our real long term problems. I’m to the left of 90% of most Democrats- I’m probably in Nader country now.
But I simply do not understand how making shit up, adopting republican frames, and doing everything you can to demoralize the base while concern trolling about how demoralized the base is does to fix our problems. Tell me how firing Rahm Emanuel and then launching an investigation into something he did a decade ago does anything. Tell me how telling everyone Obama is just words does anything. Tell me how fracturing the party more does anything. What did going after Hadassah Lieberman accomplish.
Christ, I’d put on fucking black face if I thought it would help, BUT IT DOESN’T.
gwangung
Just to be clear, your expectations are entirely reasonable, and I think a lot of people pumping for the Senate bill to pass now are also wanting fixes ASAP.
Just Some Fuckhead
I don’t agree with this. I think we were crystal clear about the political realities and offered many suggestions to change them. You just wanted to take whatever the hell two or three senators would let us have and call it a day while mocking any effort to do otherwise.
Be that as it may, what’s yer plan B now for passing a Democratic agenda? Howz the bully pulpit looking now?
geg6
@Glocksman:
LOL! Well, I’m old, poor, and svelte as hell. And I love you, too. ;-)
geg6
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Oh, and I love you, too.
But I know you don’t care.
Max
@RareSanity:
Thank you. This BTD person runs one of the most PUMA-centric, ODS on full display, Free Roman Polanski blogs on the internet, and he has taken it upon himself to come over here and “lecture” us about everything from grammer to politics.
I come to BJ to get away from that.
Speaking for me only.
jenniebee
@Quiddity: That problem didn’t start with Obama though. Liberals have had decades to break out of the echo chamber on health care and get it into the press, over and over again, what’s waiting for every single member of the public that’s pushed into early retirement, or is laid off in a corporate merger, or is subject to any one of the other hundreds of circumstances beyond their control that, if the timing coincides with an illness, can mean ruination, death, or both. Libs have had decades to talk about how single payer would create a groundswell in entrepreneurship and in that most sacred of American cows, small business ownership. We’ve had years to lay the foundations of public opinion and legislative education on health care and insurance, and we didn’t do it. Where were the conferences hosted by think tanks, where Senators and Congressmen could meet corporate sponsors who know that single-payer would help, not hurt, their bottom lines? Where were the symposia by small business groups to discuss options in health care? Where were the news stories, pushed at every opportunity, about how top military brass now considers our health care system to be a national security threat? They never happened. Instead, we had Sicko and Olberman, and Olberman only really got started talking about it after the election, and both of those are still really inside the echo chamber anyway.
We just figured that the idea was so self-evidently good that everybody would jump up and support it without building a consensus for it first. That’s not the way it works.
Just Some Fuckhead
@geg6: Thanks. John has me pretty demoralized lately. Prolly time to take another break.
Glocksman
@J. Michael Neal:
If you were arguing about passing such a break today, I’d agree with you.
The truth is that said break has existed for over 50 years and if you expect a current union worker making $10/$15 or so an hour with decent insurance to willingly sacrifice it while Landwhore and Lieberdouche (both alleged ‘democrats’) say tax hikes on the top 5% are ‘unacceptable’, then you are fucked in the head.
jenniebee
@Chris Andersen:
But then again, if Jane Hamsher was really such an incredible opinion-maker that she could actually have an effect on this, it occurs to me that we’d all be signing up for Medicare right now. All of us except for Scooter Libby, that is, because he would be in jail.
What she’s doing certainly is strategically questionable at best, but does it really make a difference?
BTD
@Midnight Marauder:
I read the posts. I noticed nothing like that.
My apologies to those of you doing that.
I do not think the posts are transmitting that message. But that’s just my opinion.
Glocksman
@geg6:
You have restored my morale. :)
Thoroughly Pizzled
@Just Some Fuckhead: Trying to convince everyone that Obama is corrupt is not really being aware of political realities, at least if you actually want something to get done.
Chris Andersen
@jenniebee:
Hard to say. But, to the extent that it is having any effect, I strongly suspect that that effect is negative.
Violet
Can we figure out a way so that elected Representatives and their families are NOT ALLOWED to have health insurance? They can’t even buy it themselves. Then let them go see how fantastic it is out there for the uninsured.
No reason they should be coddled when the system works so well for those without.
Oh, and any of them who have health benefits from being in the military should be required to give them up upon taking the oath of office. No more free health care for you!
DonBelacquaDelPurgatorio
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Yeah, there is nothing like “offering suggestions” for entitling us to get what we want.
I offered my first wife a suggestion, and she ended up with the house. Know what I mean?
Seriously, though, I think blogwhining is a lot easier than being, say, president. Don’t you?
Okay, maybe you don’t, but I would guess that a lot of people would think that. Take Barack Obama, for example. There he is, reading the blogs over his morning meal of humble pie, and he goes, Damn, ‘Chelle, these bloggers are working their ASSES off to get me on the right track, and here I sit on my skinny black ass eating chitlins and picking my nose. I should be ashamed. Honey? Honey?
That’s an actual transcript, by the way, Fuckhead. So take it seriously.
Midnight Marauder
@BTD:
First of all, what was the impetus of even telling people to call their representatives? To convince said representatives to pass what they can now, but to keep working on it. That is the sentiment running through all of those posts, so again, either you didn’t read them carefully enough or you have all the critical reading skills of a 2 year old.
And we know that it’s your fucking opinion, BTD. You don’t have to keep telling everyone in every single fucking post.
Mary
@jenniebee: Yes. It makes a difference. I believe that she and her cohorts are manufacturing outrage for their own benefit and not the benefit of the people. She is plugged into both Huffington and Politico and she slings shit on a daily basis, usually by misrepresentation or innuendo. There is a risk that something will stick. It’s clear she hopes something will stick.
El Cid
Man, ‘our’ party is so, so awesome at the messaging:
Yeah. That’ll work. It’s reverse psychology — ‘Republicans, you guys better help us, ’cause we are totally helpless right now!’
J. Michael Neal
@Glocksman: I’m not asking about Lieberman or Landrieu. I’m asking you why you deserve a tax break that I don’t get. That is what you are defending: your right not pay taxes that I have to pay. That is the hill you have chosen to defend. To me, that makes you someone who is willing to kill health care reform in order that you can keep a special privilege. Your argument that it is unrealistic to expect a union worker making $12-$15 an hour to have to pay taxes on his health insurance is utterly unpersuasive to someone who has been unemployed for four years who does have to buy health insurance with money I paid taxes on. In some ways, you are just like Lieberman, because you are concerned primarily with narrow self-interest. You have a better case than he does for why your plight deserves notice, but that’s stil lwhat it boils down to. You want to keep something that I don’t have. Tough luck.
As for the part about not being willing to raise taxes on the wealthy, I agree, but that’s really a separate issue. Those should be raised completely independently of health care reform. Saying that you oppose this HCR bill because it doesn’t do that misses the point.
jwb
@El Cid: I must say I find this just rather stupid on Obama’s part. He seems to be trying to punt HCR, get a GOP buy-in, so as to insulate the Dems on the bill. But I can’t believe that the GOP will fall for this. They’ve got the Dems by the throat right now, and unlike the ever so forgiving Dems, I don’t think the Goopers will be willing to let them go. They are going to make the Dems own the failure.
Phil P.
@John Cole:
Yes, YES, YES!!!
I agree with most of Hamsher’s criticisms but for the life of me can’t figure out what the Firebaggers thought they were going to accomplish in response to those criticisms with these bizarre @%$!*!@ actions. What was the hell was the point of raising money to go after the President’s freaking chief of staff? And really, going after Droopy Dog’s wife was supposed to achieve what, exactly? Clearly we have to lay most of the blame for HCR failure on our dysfunctional Senate and poor leadership overall from the White House, but it sure couldn’t have helped to have some of the most prominent progressive voices engaged in this sort of ridiculous behavior.
BTD
@Midnight Marauder:
The impetus is to try and be respectful and acknowledge I may not be the holder of all truths.
BTW, I see better now what the issue is – I still do have a problem with the “political reality” of your activism. you write:
” To convince said representatives to pass what they can now, but to keep working on it.”
That is nothing like what I said would be required by the unions. To wit, they want the second bill ready to go when the Senate Stand Alone bill is passed.
The unions won’t accept a promise to “work on it.”
Your activism is politically unrealistic. In my opinion.
Glocksman
@Mary:
FWIW, until we started slinging mud here on a daily basis on the merits or lack thereof on the Senate bill, I never considered even reading FDL.
That said, I’m not very impressed with the quality of most of the commentary even though I find myself agreeing with the commentariat more than I don’t.
IOW, those who insinuate that my opposition to the Senate plan means that I’m a Scrooge instead of someone with legitimate reasons to oppose it simply piss me off.
If your AGI is $23k and you have decent insurance but want to convince me that the Senate bill is the only way to go, then at least I’ll listen to you and be open to change.
If your AGI is $40k+ and you want to lecture me on the need for sacrifice, then fuck off and die in a fire.
OC
I’m going to have a drink right now. Not because of Scott Brown or HCR. I’m going to have a drink because it’s quitting time. I suggest everyone else does the same (if you’re the cocktailing type.) At least Scott Brown can’t take that away from us. WOLVERINES!!!!
jwb
@Edward G. Talbot: “Is it possible for dems . . . to change the framing of the debate?”
Obama could start by firing Geitner, Summers and withdrawing the renomination of Bernanke and then turning against the banks. It won’t happen for all the same old tired reasons, some of them very valid, but that would allow an effect change in the framing of the debate.
J. Michael Neal
@Glocksman:
I’m betting that you assume, falsely, that I fall into the second category. I’ve been unemployed for four years, and I have multiple pre-existing conditions.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
It seems to me it is the FDL crowd who are the only ones saying enough is enough. Enough compromise; enough kissing Lieberman’s ass. Enough of this bullshit.
And the alternative is what? Progressives/liberals are 15% of this country. That is it. The are not a majority. They will not be a majority ANY time in the near future. This is why most Democratic legislators are moderates. They aren’t going to produce major, game changing reform. EVER. Moderates don’t do that. You are an idiot if you ever thought they would or will.
Conservatives, on the other hand, are 40% of this country. They outnumber you more than 2 to 1. The only way that liberals really win is by convincing moderates to pay attention to their issues, give liberals a sliver of what they want, and put a lot of energy into stopping the conservatives from f’ing up this country.
The Moar You Know
Nah. The Democratic party was given a nice, brand new Ferrari in 2009, and through a combination of bungling, spinelessness and stupidity, has driven it into a ditch and wrecked it.
Elie
@geg6:
You seem pretty jolly about things, geg.
For some of us, this is a dark day — very dark.
Its not just the disappointment in a figure that I respected, but the energy of the “I told you so’s”.
So right now we got nothing. And some people seem ok with that, if not outright glad for it.
30 million plus people still without any coverage, nothing. But that is just ok I guess.
We can debate how much better off they and we are and enjoy the next steps, eh.
I am still grieving too much about the loss of what was possible and now lost.
Have fun though
Midnight Marauder
@BTD:
Maybe I didn’t spell it out in this particular thread, but when people say “pass this and keep working on it,” the “keep working on it” part refers to the potential fixes being addressed via reconciliation in the Senate. Which can’t (and won’t) happen realistically without passing the Senate bill. For crying out loud, in my first post in this thread, I quoted the president of the SEIU expressing the same sentiment I’ve been getting at the entire time. A sentiment that you claim I don’t understand.
I’VE BEEN SAYING THE SAME THING THE ENTIRE TIME! SURPRISE!
My “politically unrealistic” activism is the same fucking thing your almighty unions are asking for. Wow, you are fucking dense.
BTD
@Midnight Marauder:
“Keep working on it” is the same thing? Sorry, but if you can convince Trumka it is the same thing, well, good luck with that.
Mary
@Glocksman: Thanks for the response to my comment that I admire you for standing up for your shop on the excise tax issue. Appreciate it.
Elie
@DonBelacquaDelPurgatorio:
LOL – cynically, but nonetheless… its the only thing that will pass for laughter for me anyway
Mary
@BTD: Weren’t you here arguing against the legislation even with the excise tax fix that satisfied Trumka? Wasn’t that what the Gruber affair was about?
Midnight Marauder
@BTD:
Seriously, fuck you, BTD. Are you even reading what I’m writing? No. The answer is no, you are not, because otherwise you would have realized a while ago that we are on the same side of this equation and we’re both advocating the same approach, which also happens to be the approach union wants.
So fuck you and your obfuscatory bullshit.
Edit: I was going to bother trying to explain the point again, but why? Clearly, you won’t get it. And then you’ll just spout some more half-cocked nonsense and cap it all off with an “In my opinion, of course.”
Mary
@Midnight Marauder: BTD was arguing against the legislation even with the excise tax fix requested by the unions, just like FDL was. That’s what the Gruber affair was about.
BTD
@Mary:
Whatever. My point was about “political realism.” If you think you folks are exhibiting it with this calling campaign that does not take into account the union’s position, then have at it.
This is not about what I would accept. You folks can do whatever you want.
mclaren
Once again Big Kook Neocon spouts Reaganoid gibberish spiced with the usual pathological lies and garnished with some extra-tasty hypocrisy. Been there, done that. We were told Newt Gingrich was “someone we could work with” because we had to be politically realistic in our activism — then Gingrich screamed “To the liberals, I blame YOU for Columbine!”
We were assured Dubya was a “compassionate conservative.” Because progressives had to be politically realistic in their activism. Then we got torture and kidnapping without trial and without charges and a Decider lying us into an illegal war of aggression.
Big Kook Neocon oozes:
That’s why you ban everyone on your blog who dares to disagree with you, eh? You’re not just a liar, Big Kook Neocon, you’re an incompetent liar. Cheney told his lies better, with more gusto and brio and panache. At least Dick Cheney just sneered “F&%#k you” straight up. You don’t even rise to the level of honesty of Dick Cheney, you pathetic liar.
Big Kook Neocon goes on to concern-troll everyone to the left of Atilla the Hun:
Ah, yes. The `political reality’ of progressive activism. Let’s take a look at the historical record of claims about the `political reality’ of progressive activism, shall we?
Yes indeedy, it was just impractical to impose an annual…(gasp!) income tax in America, wasn’t it? Just not an example of activism that was in touch with “political reality”…
Yessir, political reality just won’t let the American left push something as outlandish as women’s right to vote on the American people. No, no, noooooooooooo, we must “bide our time” because allowing women to vote just isn’t “politically realistic.”
Abso-fuckin’-lutely, if we ban child labor, why, millions of families would starve. Oh, no no no no no, it just isn’t politically realistic to ban something as basic to the American way of life as child labor.
C’mon, Big Kook Neocon, give another one of your neocon-butt-snorkeling lies. Tell us how the solution to the current economic hecatomb is to bring back slavery, because, y’know, abolishing slavery just was never politically realistic.
Let’s go for the gusto, Big Kook Neocon…let’s bring back human sacrifice while we’re at it. Because, after all, abolishing human sacrifice to golden calves just isnt…politically realistic.
Folks, every time Big Kook Neocon opens his mouth, the entire human race gets dumber. Whole forests of trees would have to be cut down to print enough books to debunk his cowardly far-right Reaganoid gibberish. And the sheer dishonesty of his concern trolling would gag a maggot.
Crawl back to your CPAC buddies, Big Kook Neocon. You’re no Democrat, you have no interest in a big tent, and your only goal is to make the world safe for torture and kidnapping without trial or charges. Why? Because you’re too ignorant and too incompetent as a lawyer to cut it in a legal system where lawyers have to do things like, oh, you know, produce evidence and provide a legal foundation for pressing charges against suspects. Much easier to just kidnap brown people off the streets and throw ’em in a torture chamber without supervision and without accountability while sanctimoniously bleating “I heartily disapprove of torture”, and, hey, if those prisoners without names in cells without numbers wind up dead of phoney “suicides,” wellllllllllll, they just shouldn’t have dared to dissent against the You Nighted States of Murka, should they?
Crawl back under your rock, Big Kook Neocon. Everyone who listens to you feels like they have to take a shower afterwards. You’re scum of the earth, a piece of human garbage, you’re a lump of excrement choking the body politic and an embarrassment to the entire legal profession.
Just speaking for myself, of course.
Mary
@BTD: Barney Frank just changed his position, possibly as a result of the kind of calls that John’s crew was advising.
We care about the union positions, as well.
Midnight Marauder
@BTD:
THE CAMPAIGN IS BASED ON THE UNION’S POSITION! They want changes via reconciliation, but they also need the House bill to pass for that to happen. Tell me, how else is the House bill is supposed to pass if people don’t tell their representatives to vote for the fucking thing?
House Liberals To Pelosi: “We Cannot Support The Senate Bill. Period.”
How’s the for political realism, BTD? How do the unions feel about this fool’s errand? Because that is one of the stupidest things I have read since the last time you posted something here.
Edit: Sincerely, you, good sir, are a moron.
Mary
Josh Marshall posted notes of a call to Barney Frank along the lines of the ones we’ve been making. Now Barney Frank has changed his position. I think we should keep calling.
BTD
@Midnight Marauder:
Honestly. You think that? You think the position expressed by House Progressives is not the one the unions are insisting on?
Again, good luck. Keep working on it, to coin a phrase.
BTD
@Mary:
I read Frank’s statement. If you can make head or tail of what his actual position is, kudos to you.
Chuck Butcher
The goddam magical thinking around here astounds me, the Senate bill wasn’t going to get “fixed” in reconciliation beyond a bit of nibbling around the edges. I’d think anyone with two live brain cells that speak to each other would have gotten some kind of idea from the Nelson/LIEberman circus. Nope. Nada.
It’s the evil left…gotta be ’cause we’re realists…
Midnight Marauder
@BTD:
Because that’s totally what the unions are saying right now?
Taobhan
Hey, as miserable the Dems are as a political party, you can’t hold them totally responsible for the HCR debacle. You really need to point at the Repubs too – they’re the ones who essentially bankrupted the nation during the Bush years. All they (and their fellow-traveling Blue Dogs) had to do at this point was to scream “we can’t afford this huge giveaway ” – a point that seems to be resonating with the public, especially those with any kind of health insurance now.
Nobody seems to remember how we got here. Yet you keep banging away on the Hamsher lefties like they sunk HCR all by themselves. This is so typical of Dem behavior – each wing of the party shoots at the other wing like it’s the enemy and the Repubs escape accountability once again. Welcome to the Democratic party, Cole – you probably didn’t realize you were joining a shooting gallery.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
@cleek:
No, I think you have it ass backwards, as usual.
Arrogance and assuming that the seat was somehow sacred kept those idiots sitting on their hands while the Republicans were in the process of taking it away.
One of the great fuckups in political history, and I think that the tendency of those Mass Dem fools to think that the seat belonged to them is what started them on the road to paralysis and neglect at a crucial time.
But don’t take it too hard, Cleek. Like a broken clock, you are right every once in a while. I can’t think of an example right now, but anyway.
Just Some Fuckhead
I’d say yer wrong based on all the shooting he’s doing.
John Cole
You know why people like to “punch hippies?”
Comments like this. In a post where I state the progressive left is not to blame, is probably right on the policy, and has been shit on by centrists and bluedogs all throughout the negotiations, and your response is to come in and tell me I’m not fellating the DFH crowd enough. Makes me want to buy more and bigger ammo, you whiny sumbitch.
El Tiburon
@Chris Andersen:
Hamsher’s response will make it worse?
How in the fuckity fuck fuck can it get any worse? This is what I’m saying. HCR is going down the goddamn drain and the Democrats seem to be shoving it down with their boots.
Seems to me Hamsher, et al are the only ones saying, “Hey, yank that fucker back up and seal up the drain, give it mouth-to-mouth and let’s bring it back to life.”
Health Care Reform is Dead. Whatever passes will be a Pet Semetary-Zombie version that pisses everyone off.
El Tiburon
@John Cole:
So now calling for an investigation into Rahm Emanuel killed health care reform and demoralized the base?
Criticizing Obama is verboten?
We watched as HCR died a slow, painful death. Conventional wisdom was to compromise the shit out of it and fix it later?
Yeah, that worked so wonderfully. People are pissed at your strategy. IT DID NOT WORK. EPIC FAIL. HELLOOOOO! IS THIS THING ON?
When are you going to realize that big black abyss you are staring into is the Jaws of Defeat. And that black dude behind nudging you is Barack Obama.
Hamsher had the balls to make a principled stand and it’s somehow all her fault?
johnny walker
“The reason that online progressives have driven me insane is that they seem immune to the political realities[.]”
And the reason you drive us insane is that we can’t get you to admit that the way things have went down isn’t the only way it ever could have went down. But we love you, your fatass cat and your flighty dog anyway. Hope your shoulder’s feeling well.
Just Some Fuckhead
@John Cole:
Fuck you. You’ve spent weeks twirling up yer flying monkeys, spitting all over progs and fanning the flames. Pardon me for not being impressed as shit with your shiny new magnamity.
Death Panel Truck
“Solely” implies one entity only. You’ve listed three.