If this passes, it will be good news for conservatives because it will mean that Democrats have gone too far. If it fails, it will be good news for conservatives because it shows that voters don’t like tax increases.
Anyway, everyone in Oregon is a hippie. So if it fails, it shows that even hippies don’t like tax increases!
General Winfield Stuck
I flipped on a bobblehead show this morn, and the first word I heard was Massachusetts. I turned it off and returned to my current state of blissful ignorance.
If the stars realign and something good happens, I figure to learn about it on BJ.
inkadu
I’m not sure if this means that tech companies are forward looking, or that the educational system is so horrifically bad that even businesses are feeling it.
Woodbuster
Well, good luck to them. Here in my state, with our illustrious doofus Lieutenant Governor, our solution will be to stop all aid to poor people and anyone else on public assistance and take them all to “people shelters,” where they will either be euthanized or neutered.
Asshole.
El Cid
Democrats should definitely take the initiative and offer ballot measures declaring not just taxes but any form of revenue raising by the Fedrul Gubmit as immoral and uncompetitive and un-Constitutional. This would show that they’re really in tune with Thuh Peepuhl.
arguingwithsignposts
In the land of Lincoln, the entire state gov’t leadership is holding their collective breath until after the 2010 elections to do anything about a budget deficit that is causing furloughs at state universities, layoffs in state gov’t and etc. Not quite as sh*tty as the situation in Gulivornia, but damned if they aren’t set on getting us there.
Nobody is willing to talk about raising taxes right now. It’s sad when the entire political establishment has succumbed to the Club for Growth idiocy.
This is why we can’t have good things. sigh.
The Grand Panjandrum
I got a chuckle out of this part. Republicans at the state and local level don’t have the luxury of cutting expenses when the budget was already lean. They can’t run debts so even some of the more responsible members of the opposition understand that you can only cut so much and then you have to actually raise revenue.
General Winfield Stuck
OT
BradJolena are splitting up. My hemlock slushy for breakfast.
El Cid
Even when you’re a conservative Republican who says you’re doing it because Jesus wants you to stop putting the majority of the local and property tax weight on the poorest, it still can fail:
neill
I got a good feeling for 66 & 67 in Orygun. I think the farmers and the winemakers and the hippies of Portland, Salem and Eugene (and Ashland) ‘ll nail this one even better than the polls.
Whether the US is ready to follow Organic Orygun instead of Californistan — time will tell…
inkadu
@The Grand Panjandrum: I grew up in a time when things were relatively good and politics had little impact on peoples lives. Now things are getting really bad, and I’m interested to see how our little democracy handles thing.
Part of my fear is that maybe the United States has been doing relatively well since WW2 was entirely because of economics, and not because of healthy, responsive politics (ok, don’t laugh too loud)… And now that economics has abandoned us, the dysfunctional nature of our government and our culture will be laid bare we’ll quickly devolve to second world status.
Kryptik
This is one of the other things that I hate conservatives for. No one really likes Taxes. Tell me someone who does.
But any and all taxes these days seem to be seen less as a necessary evil as an absolute evil. Especially when it comes to taxing the rich, because they just paint it as 1) punishing the successful, and/or 2) simply ignore the raise on the rich and act like it’s the little people footing everything.
CaseyL
Abandoning serious issues with relief…
@General Winfield Stuck:
I don’t normally have more than a mild interest in celeb goings-on, but I have to say this relationship did fascinate me.
Angelina seems incapable of falling in love with someone who isn’t already someone else’s, so that was Bad. But she’s been very sincerely dedicated to doing serious international charity work (even aside from adopting every orphan who catches her eye), which is Good. And Brad broke up with Jenn, which was Bad. But he seemed to genuinely enjoy and value the more meaningful life of international adventure and good works Jolie offered, which was Good.
Plus, their interaction in Mr. and Mrs. Smith was a genuine hoot.
I’m kind of flabbergasted by the size of their fortune, est. to be $330 – 400 million. Their movies didn’t make that much money… did they?
scav
well, taxing the rich and corporations wouldn’t be my first choice but I’m open to compromise.
Shalimar
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/1/24/75911/1936
Sometimes it seems like the only thing that could repair our society is a virus that killed every person making more than a few million a year. And no, I’m not advocating murder, but jesus christ these people don’t even try to be human.
Bob In Pacifica
In today’s California news, Schwarzeneggar is leaving office at 27% popularity. And the legislators are at 16%. And no one can change the gridlock in Sacto.
I suspect the 27% also believe in death panels and Kenyan birth certificates, because 27% seems to be basement in popularity stats.
Incertus
@scav: What would your first choice be? Because I’m all about hitting the rich and the corporations.
Max
@CaseyL: According to Perez Hilton, their reps are denying the split.
inkadu
@Kryptik: Its that protestant idea — money reflects your spiritual value. Higher taxes for the rich turns that ethic on its head. The notion that being rich is a reward for being lucky or being in the right place at the right time seems beyond them. If we could take a young Bill Gates and bring him in a time machine to now, he’d just be an unemployed programmer, probably unable to get a job.
John Cole
@Bob In Pacifica: 27% is widely regarded as the exact number of the crazification factor.
John Cole
@General Winfield Stuck: I am reasonably sure whoever runs the superficial is a commenter here, btw.
andy
@inkadu: Read Krugman’s “Conscience of a Liberal”- he points out it was the New Deal that set up the prosperity that took us all the way to about 1980. It took so long for the Republicans to “go there” in part they were so badly hammered when the first Gilded Age collapsed into depression- that and the fact so many Republicans were in fact pretty liberal. At least in the north. Ike never had any problem with the 90% top marginal rate because he felt that messing with that or any other New Deal initiative would be insane.
The irony here is that so many of your teabaggers and wingnut DO look back at the 50’s as some kind of golden age. It kind of makes you wonder if what they are really pining for, because beyond the New Deal, all that’s left is Cold War Paranoia, an occasionally interventionist foreign policy, and segregation…
Napoleon
Wouldn’t it be nice if the Oregon vote was the vanguard of something bigger, like Prop 13 was from California.
Well I can dream.
General Winfield Stuck
@CaseyL: I think the standard star rate per flick is around 20 mil.. Pitt is in the superstar class, and Jolie, if not the same, then close to it.
But money can’t buy you love. though I doubt that was what Pitt was looking for. Prolly Jolie as well.
geoff
well as an Oregonian, it looks like both will pass. They aren’t perfect nor that well thought out but…here’s a link to a fairly recent poll on both.
http://lindholmcompanyblog.com/?p=2310
General Winfield Stuck
@John Cole:
I confess
Ben H.
The ‘No on 66/67 Committee’ has been jamming my mailbox and TV w/appeals from fake small businesses. They all say they own a small family farm/bakery/business and that the additional taxes will force them to fire employees and close their doors.
Some of the written appeals are from real people — who usually own large corporations and simply claim their $20 million/year firm is ‘small’. But the businesses portrayed in the TV ads… don’t actually exist. They couldn’t find even ONE small bakery in Oregon to make their pitch for this filmed in Sacramento, CA. And they didn’t see fit to hire Oregon actors for it, either.
GregB
John,
That is the Keyes Peak number that represented the percentage of Illinois voters that chose raving lunatic Alan Keyes over Barack Obama for the senate in 2004.
-G
mk3872
My favorite line in this junk piece is this one:
Classic. No need to ever think past the MSM Republican-fed CW that liberals love taxes.
And never, ever dare to challenge a conservative as to how to pay for their govt ideas without collecting revenues …
Kryptik
@mk3872:
But…but…Laffer Curve! Tax Cuts always pay for themselves!! It only makes perfect sense!! Why don’t you damn hippies understand?!
CaseyL
@andy: Exactly.
Post WWII America built colleges, roads, hospitals, and schools – and paid for it with an up to 90% tax bracket that persisted through those mythical 50s the Right is so fond of.
We’ve been coasting on what was built during the Liberal Era for a long time now. I don’t know what things are like elsewhere, but even here in “Left Coast” Seattle, our roads are a disgrace, our public health facilities are underwater, and state-funded human services are so outmatched by need it’s like a deliberate insult. There’s nothing left to coast on, and for the last decade we’ve been eating our seed corn.
Plus, as has been pointed out a few times, our cultural memory of when government actually functioned well and properly most of the time is receding beyond living memory very quickly. Soon, all that “within living memory” will contain is government as handmaid to a predatory, parasitic corporate state.
Quiddity
California had a somewhat similar measure on the ballot a few years ago. Proposition 63, which applied an additional 1% income tax on millionaires. The funds were to go towards mental health care. It passed.
sbjules
Was anyone worried that Nike would move out of state?
Amanda in the South Bay
I remember that as a high school student in the mid90s, most of the top students in my class didn’t go to Oregon public universities. The ironic thing is I’m sure it was their parents fault for that goddamned fucking property tax measure in the early 90s that gutted Oregon public education like you wouldn’t believe. Of course I lived in a small town, so YMMW, but that doesn’t mean that they weren’t assholes all the same.
DonkeyKong
Heads they win, tails we lose!
arguingwithsignposts
@sbjules:
Well, their production is already done out of country.
Church Lady
My guess: Corporate tax increase passes, personal tax increase fails.
darryl
Esp because he was a college dropout.
True story–I had a pre-interview with G*****e. The guy on the phone asked me what my GPA was. I told him it was a while ago but I think it was a 3.6. He said, “Uh…I don’t think you’re qualified to work here then.” “What?” I said. “I think you have to have a 3.8 to work here.” “I’ve been coding for twelve years. I’ve got three patents. What do you mean my 3.6 doesn’t qualify?” “I don’t think they hire anybody who has less than a 3.8” the guy said. “Are you the fucking stupidest company on the face of the Earth?” I asked him, and hung up.
Actually glad I didn’t get the job. How could you live with yourself, working for a company so dumb?
arguingwithsignposts
Another thing that ticks me off about the Grover Norquists of the Right and the anti-tax sentiment is this idea that taxes just disappear into the ether, never to be seen again. I’d wager (I don’t have strong figures in front of me) that 70-80 percent of taxes (local and state, especially) go to pay wages and benefits of government workers or go right back out into social services. Those workers, in turn, pay taxes on their income, buy groceries, houses, cars, and pay into the local economy. Those people benefiting from social services pay right back into the economy as well.
OTOH, all that money that isn’t being taxed from the wealthy? It goes into an investment account so their financial advisers can play the ponies on Wall Street – not creating, not circulating in the local economy, just ending up in the hands of their future generations of pampered children.
inkadu
@andy: I’m not too clear on what conclusion to draw from post-WW2. It seems a perfectly plausible theory that the United States benefited from having the only manufacturing base left after WW2. I’m not knocking the New Deal. Certainly income equality and tax rates from the fifties were a lot better. The corporate-military-industrial-congressional complex was in its infancy.
Maybe it’s time to throw that back into conservatives faces: “I just want to get back to the tax rates of the 50s.”
But the way things are going today, it looks like we’re going to have to have a few years of wobbly-magnitude violence before we get back on track again.
And, yes, it is really sad how we’ve spent the last 50 years cannibalizing our success and funelling our national treasure into military spending and foreign wars.
cheeses
Here’s how much taxes are being increased in the OR measures.
Measure 6:
Household income >= $260,000, tax increase of $180
Household income >= $300,000, tax increase of $900
Measure 67:
LLC, S-Corp, C-Corp (less than $500,000 revenue): tax increase of $150
arguingwithsignposts
@darryl: That’s really weird. I’ve never had anyone ask me my GPA in an interview. I don’t work in computer science, though. GPA is the most bogus indicator of worth once you leave school evah (well, maybe except for the SAT/ACT).
You should tell us the name so we can know who not to buy stock in.
As to the college dropout thing? Not so much. Zuckerberg – facebook – also a college dropout.
asiangrrlMN
I didn’t read the whole article, but I did notice one of the experts quoted was named ‘Doug Cole’. Hmmmmm…..
arguingwithsignposts
@inkadu:
Well, to be fair, it wasn’t “we” who spent all that blood and treasure on foreign wars. A determined group of psychopaths who never served in the military did most of the heavy lifting on that front.
arguingwithsignposts
@asiangrrlMN:
I noticed that too.
KDP
@arguingwithsignposts: Only the physical construction and assembly of the shoes. The development of the high tech polyurethane sheeting that becomes the airbags, and the manufacture of both the extruded sheeting and the airbags is done in St. Charles MO. Additionally, manufacturing of the polyurethane component that becomes the base for passenger side airbag sensors in cars is also done at the same facility in St. Charles MO. The division is IHM, in-house manufacturing, and Nike took over the original firm, Tetra Plastics, when its founder retired back in the 90s.
asiangrrlMN
@arguingwithsignposts: I’m with you on that one. I refuse to take responsibility for that shit. Nah. Ganna, Do It. I am guilty of many things, but the reign of W. and brethren is not one of them.
@darryl: I’m glad you didn’t censor. I think we need the full impact of the word once in awhile to remind ourselves that the attitude still exists.
darryl
@andy:
Spend a while in the South. I live in rural Georgia, and plenty of my neighbors have basically the following concerns:
1 Christians, and white males in general, are the most persecuted group in the history of the world
2 Women shouldn’t be nobody’s boss cause they’re terrible bitches (the women will tell you that.)
2 Darkies should know their place.
I’m not exaggerating. The only progress I’ve seen in 40 years is, they go from saying “White girls shouldn’t marry niggers cause niggers are dumb.” to saying “White girls shouldn’t marry niggers cause their kids ain’t accepted by either blacks or whites.” They know they’re not supposed to be overtly racist, so the kids thing is the way to hide it.
(I thought about censoring the word ‘nigger’ in the above, but I don’t think I will. Black people know racists say it, so I wouldn’t be protecting their feelings, I’d be protecting the feelings of liberal white people like myself, who should understand that it’s still pretty common in certain parts of the country.)
notjenna
@Incertus:
Also interested in who scav thinks has the money these days.
Little discussed in the “debate” about 66 & 67 is the growth in income equality here in Oregon and across the nation over the last 30+ years. The notion that these measures would “punish” the wealthy is just laughable.
It’s been much commented that these wingnuts have devolved into the whiniest group of entitled assholes ever. Running the gamut from “you’re punishing me for working so hard” to “you’re persecuting us Xtians ‘cuz we can’t plaster the 10 commandments all over our courts and schools”, they’ve also been able to make the Village feel their pain. Go fucking Galt already, bitchez!
Anyway, here’s a couple of links links showing just how much our put upon wealthy betters have suffered over the years. Given that this is about 66 & 67, click on the Oregon links (to pdfs).
darryl
@arguingwithsignposts:
Oh you can tell who I mean. It’s happened to enough people that the stories are all over the internet. This particular company is getting notorious for their idiotic hiring practices.
Patrick Lightbody
I live in Portland, OR I’ve had a bit of a one-sided conversation with the one of the Republican candidates for Governor. He’s a tech executive, so that’s a plus to me (I own a 3 person software startup). But he’s fighting tooth and nail against these taxes, which confuses me, since it’s so relatively minor.
In fact, I had a small Tweet-exchange with him, but he’s since decided to ignore more once I did the basic math:
Him: http://twitter.com/allen_alley/status/7578785540
Me: http://twitter.com/plightbo/status/7579782301
Oh well. I guess I should be happy he replied at all, though I’d really love to hear how they can argue this isn’t an inconsequential amount, or how it’s “Job Killing” as all their TV commercials claim.
darryl
I have relatives in Arkansas that I’ve tried to explain that to.
them: “You gotta give rich people tax breaks so they’re create jobs. Ain’t no poor people hire nobody.”
me: “A rich guy might put his money in a Swiss bank. Poor people spend it on groceries. So giving the same money to poor people can stimulate the economy more.”
them: “Uh…You gotta give rich people tax breaks so they’re create jobs. Ain’t no poor people hire nobody.”
And these are people who live in a trailer park and listen to Rush all day.
They’ve been well-programmed, is all I can say.
The Raven
“everyone in Oregon is a hippie.”
Well, except for the right-wing Christians, the loggers, David Frohnmayer, and Phil Knight. But a majority of Oregonians, even the rich ones, do believe in governing for all the people, and that sometimes makes a huge difference.
darryl
speaking of Nike, I’ve actually been running barefoot lately, based on all the recent research.
My calves are bigger than they’ve ever been, and my knee problem disappeared.
bemused
Moderate income R’s who will never be rich or even “comfortable” seem to think any tax hike on the actual wealthy means them. Even if they know the proposed tax raise doesn’t doesn’t come close to their income level, they still think it will hurt them. Before the 2009 election, a guy who owns a tiny business & works long hours was grousing about Obama wanting to raise taxes on those who make over $200 thou & a friend asked him why he was worried about it since he doesn’t make anything close to that kind of money. The grouser said, “Well, I might some day”. That’s a pretty common belief from what I’ve noticed among the R’s I know. Somehow, someday, if they keep voting republican, they will be rewarded, never mind that it’s never happened in their lifetimes or their parent’s lifetimes. Keep the faith.
darryl
Even Randroids are seldom dumb enough to actually Go Galt. They’re dumb enough to talk like it’s a great idea, but the notion of putting it into practice triggers something in the reptilian brain that prevents them from doing suicidally-stupid things.
notjenna
@notjenna:
D’oh! That should read “growth in income inequality”.
Patrick Lightbody
@bemused My wife’s family fits that description – despite the fact that they fit right in to the median household income for the whole US. I’ve never quite understood it.
I also think those that vote against these types of measures either aren’t good at math or they are willfully ignorant of the proposal.
Under this measure, those earning $350K of TAXABLE income will see a $1.8K increase in taxes, which drops to $900 in 2012.
I’m fortunate enough to be affected by this measure, and I plan to buy whatever the hell Apple announces on Wednesday (Tablet?) because I’m able to. I don’t understand how someone can get their panties in a bunch over $1.8K when you’re making that much money and buying random crap like a new iPhone every year.
arguingwithsignposts
@Patrick Lightbody:
Because that’s MY money, dammit! I earned it all on my own, with no help from gov’t educational systems, or gov’t subsidized roads, gov’t police and fire protection, or gov’t insured bank deposits. It’s MINE, all MINE! /randian
The Raven
@bemused:
It’s a fantasy of power. They not top hominid, never will be…but they look so much better on myspace.
Croak!
bemused
@Patrick Lightbody:
My guess is that many of the wealthy complainers are living beyond their means, some are hoarders…no amount of money is ever enough & others are addicted to the rush of making obscene amounts of money, not what that money can [email protected]arguingwithsignposts:
So true.
Patrick Lightbody
Got an update: the Republican candidate for Governor responded to me. Of course, the 140 character limit made it a bit hard to understand what he meant. Anyone care to decipher?
http://twitter.com/allen_alley/status/8158981517
darryl
http://www.americablog.com/2009/08/i-am-american-conservative-shithead.html
Hob
@The Grand Panjandrum:
I wish you could say that about the opposition in California.
I know Brachiator will come along and say “California isn’t the Republicans’ fault, the Democrats wouldn’t get anything done anyway”, but still, bonds or no bonds, I’m not sure it’s possible to find a Republican state legislator here who will acknowledge that you have to raise revenue under any circumstances whatsoever.
Chuck Butcher
Our biggest budget woes in OR are CA imports their Prop13 – our M5 and then mandatory sentencing. It can make a person a bit irritable when they bail out to here and then try to make the same mess.
Nike and I pay the same Corp tax, $10. Hmmm. That tax is on profits and corps are not in the business of profits, earnings are another thing. This tax also hits earnings/sales which would completely miss me and not Nike.
OR’s income tax is pretty regressive and will remain so even with this tax. OR has rejected that most regressive of all taxes, sales, repeatedly. WaPo would like that to sound anti-tax since most of the rest of you are too dim to see who gets screwed and who skates under sales tax.
Chuck Butcher
@Chuck Butcher:
As an aside, M5 – the CA type property tax bill – defies the right anti tax theme. It passed overwhelmingly in the Valley (hippies) and failed in the rural (hicks) counties. The vast majority of land area rejected it. That is also the poorest area.
inkadu
@Patrick Lightbody:
I think we get the general drift — money will mean job cuts. It’s that second half that’s the puzzler, ennit?
I’m thinking maybe he’s doing something crazy, like figuring the averaging the cost of the total package on just the backs of Nike and UPS and then dividing by their employees. Nike has 6,800 employees at Beaverton. I can’t find UPS numbers, but if they had 12,198 people, then the numbers work out.
And its funny how the ripple effect only works for taxes that lead directly to job cuts, but does not work for increased services. That is to say economics is a zero-sum game when talking about taxes and income, except when its convenient for conservatives.
Cain
<blockquoteWell, except for the right-wing Christians, the loggers, David Frohnmayer, and Phil Knight. But a majority of Oregonians, even the rich ones, do believe in governing for all the people, and that sometimes makes a huge difference.
Indeed. I would have voted for this even if I was in the taxable area. We are fortunate to be doing well and I consider it a duty to make sure that society around me is functioning well as I think I will get something out of it.
I don’t understand that tweet from Alan. Nike didn’t leave when the beaverton city council tried to illegally annex their land so they can get taxes. (which is why I don’t trust beaverton anymore.. assholes) I doubt they’ll leave just because they are marginally raising taxes from 10 dollars.
My wife and I are planning on voting for the two measures. Unlike most states, people here actually discuss the bills that come up. My wife and I always read the voters pamphlet and discuss the pros and cons of the bills ahead of us. It’s why we actually got rid of the law that required a 2/3rd majority to approve tax hikes. You gotta admit that’s some good politics. Now if we can somehow kick Bill Sizemore’s ass… he’s so bad even my conservative friends will automatically vote no on any bill written by him. God I hate that asshole.
cain
Cain
@Chuck Butcher: <blockquoteAs an aside, M5 – the CA type property tax bill – defies the right anti tax theme. It passed overwhelmingly in the Valley (hippies) and failed in the rural (hicks) counties. The vast majority of land area rejected it. That is also the poorest area.
Is that the one that got rejected I think it had “Wolf in sheep’s clothing” as the byline or something like that? They are so fucking lucky that it didn’t pass and they didn’t sell their land. When the housing market collapsed they would have been screwed. It might not be that, I might have been confusing it with something else.
cain
Cain
@bemused: <blockquoteMy guess is that many of the wealthy complainers are living beyond their means, some are hoarders…no amount of money is ever enough & others are addicted to the rush of making obscene amounts of money, not what that money can [email protected]:
I think a lot of people in the U.S. live beyond their means. It’s some kind of situation that is unique to the U.S. It’s why we abuse credit cards and what not. We want to spend, cuz well spending == american dream.
cain
Eric
I can only hope this passes. After four years in Oregon, I don’t have much hope that we’ll do the right thing. For a blue state, this place is pretty reactionary sometimes.
Give me Republican-run Colorado from the earlier part of this decade over ‘progressive’-dominated Oregon. The righties in Colorado at least had the foresight to invest a little bit in transportation. I’m not sure what the state government does in Oregon. Really, I can’t name any services outside of some parks.
Evinfuilt
@arguingwithsignposts:
I guarantee that’s what they believe. I heard it from a right-wing Econ professor in the 90s, back in college. All government spent money is waste, if we just give it to a corporation they’ll spend it wisely.
My head nearly exploded, the idea we should tax the middle class and give it corps to spend, while they have to maintain a profit. Insane!!
That day started my slow conversion, I feel bad I laughed at my grandpa initially (he was a Notre Dame economics professor, and an unabashed socialist.)
Kelly
@darryl:
I had a similar experience with Intel many years ago. I had the exact skills my manager desperately needed, no one else he interviewed was close. He made a job offer without consulting HR. I had a weird interview with an HR person that let me know my GPA should have kept them from interviewing me at all. It was a good job anyway and now I’m comfortably retired. My boss warned my we’d have some static and apologized in advance.