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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Up To Obama Now

Up To Obama Now

by Tim F|  January 27, 201011:43 am| 142 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

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If Ezra’s right then the White House itself still hasn’t decided which way to go on HCR. Given the number of legislators have decided to wait for his leadership, that essentially puts the entire game up to an argument between Rahm and David Plouffe.

Until now I have resisted siccing you guys on the White House for reasons that mostly have to do with how the Executive branch is (and should be) institutionally protected from swings in popular opinion. Still, Obama’s talk tonight may decide the game. If the President says PTDB then the damn bill gets passed and our job narrows down to pressuring the Senate to pass a fix, which I think we can do as long as step (1) gets done. If the President asks us to pare down our expectations, then the ballgame’s over.

Imagine for a second that Olympia Snowe does come up with some compromise that will not get her thrown out of her caucus. Needless to say it will take her three or four months to make up her mind, assuming (to the point of idiotic gullibility) that she doesn’t pull a Lieberman and back out on her own deal. So that puts us at the height of campaign season. Granting that liberal Senators can choke down an even worse bill, which I doubt they will do, do you suppose that the House liberal caucus will turn around and support a shit-and-banana sandwich after the banana gets taken out? Get real.

The White House switchboard is 202-456-1414. Call and give them your mind.

***Update***

Atrios.

The White House might be unsure about what to do about their signature piece of legislation, but that hasn’t stopped them from whipping senators on Bernanke.

Priorities.

Might want to ask about that.

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Reader Interactions

142Comments

  1. 1.

    cleek

    January 27, 2010 at 11:44 am

    If the President says PTDB then the damn bill gets passed

    i do not believe this is a true statement.

  2. 2.

    Evinfuilt

    January 27, 2010 at 11:47 am

    “Obama is Charlie Brown, Snowe is Lucy” and tonight I sadly expect him to prove it. He’s proven it every time he’s going looking for bipartisanship. I don’t think Obama is stupid, probably one of the most brilliant Presidents we’ve ever had in this country, which means if he sets up another failure he’s doing it on purpose.

  3. 3.

    Tim F.

    January 27, 2010 at 11:48 am

    @cleek: Feedback from you guys seems to indicate that this is true. A surprising number of Reps want the White House to give some sort of strategy, and we only need a few votes to get this done.

    Even if I wasn’t so confident, I can guarantee that we fail if Obama chickens out in his SOTU. Either way he’s basically our only chance.

  4. 4.

    dr. bloor

    January 27, 2010 at 11:48 am

    @cleek:

    i do not believe this is a true statement.

    Beat me to it.

  5. 5.

    Davis X. Machina

    January 27, 2010 at 11:48 am

    i do not believe this is a true statement.

    Certainly not true, so long as the House, and FDL, are busy preening.

  6. 6.

    Nicole

    January 27, 2010 at 11:50 am

    More pressure anywhere is good. My husband called Rangel’s office, too, and got a completely different answer from mine. His quote:
    ‘They said he was “working with leadership” on the health care bill – I said “does that mean he supports it?” She said “I don’t know what that means”. I said “Well he should support, and if he doesn’t, I may have to no longer be a Democrat since I can’t trust the Democrats to take care of the American people”).’

    Okay, I hit my Rep and my Senators today. Time for the WH.

    Heh. I said I “hit.”

  7. 7.

    dr. bloor

    January 27, 2010 at 11:51 am

    @Evinfuilt:

    He may just be afraid of a fight.

  8. 8.

    beltane

    January 27, 2010 at 11:57 am

    Pass the Damn Bill. If they won’t do this for us, it will prove they won’t do anything for us.

  9. 9.

    El Cid

    January 27, 2010 at 11:58 am

    Hey, if they give up on health care, can they still send out fundraising letters mentioning how if we fail to give them lots of money then the Republicans might win again and block health care reform? That’ll work. And then a lot of writers can blame left wing blogs for making the average person who has never ever read a blog or listened to progressive radio or seen Rachel Maddow fail to turn out and vote and give money the way they ought to.

  10. 10.

    Tsulagi

    January 27, 2010 at 11:58 am

    If the President says PTDB …

    Over/under?

    Needless to say it will take her three or four months to make up her mind

    You’re such an optimist.

  11. 11.

    Joe Beese

    January 27, 2010 at 11:59 am

    I’m sure Obama’s (in)decision on the (non-)future of HCR will be swayed by his consultation with the WH phone operators to find out how the calls are running.

    If you’re that desperate to feel important, go hire a prostitute or something.

  12. 12.

    Tomlinson

    January 27, 2010 at 11:59 am

    Jesus Wept.

    If this is true, I want my vote back, I want my money back, I want to apologize to this entire country for helping to elect this spineless twit.

  13. 13.

    Lev

    January 27, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    Yeah, the WH line has Emanuel written all over it. Compromising when you can get a better bill without it, muddled messaging, etc. This is the downside of staffing your administration with Clinton people. They know where their offices are, and how to use the White House phones, but when it comes to showing guts…not so much their thing, dude.

    Then again, I have no idea who you’d replace Rahm with. Axelrod? Not the worst idea I’ve ever heard.

  14. 14.

    ChrisWWW

    January 27, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    I’m predicting tonight’s speech will be little more than infuriating centrist bullsh*t. A paean to the worries of tea baggers.

    Despite having staked his first year on the stimulus and health reform, he’ll talk a lot about how we have to cut government spending, and he won’t make anything but grumbles about the necessity of some nebulous idea of health reform. That way if *something* passes that makes the insurance industry a little less evil, Obama can still try to take credit.

  15. 15.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 27, 2010 at 12:02 pm

    @Lev:
    Plouffe.

  16. 16.

    Sasha

    January 27, 2010 at 12:08 pm

    If I can’t trust the Dems to fight for healthcare reform, why should I expect them to fight against the inevitable Citizen Redefinition and Income-Based Forced Relocation Act?

  17. 17.

    Corner Stone

    January 27, 2010 at 12:09 pm

    Still, Obama’s talk tonight may decide the game. If the President says PTDB then the damn bill gets passed and our job narrows down to pressuring the Senate to pass a fix, which I think we can do as long as step (1) gets done. If the President asks us to pare down our expectations, then the ballgame’s over.

    This absolutely flies in the face of everything that’s been crammed down our god damn throats here for the past year +/-.
    Bullshit.

  18. 18.

    Zifnab

    January 27, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    The White House might be unsure about what to do about their signature piece of legislation, but that hasn’t stopped them from whipping senators on Bernanke.
    Priorities.

    I wouldn’t mind seeing some Senators use Bernanke as a hostage to pass health care. But I don’t think Obama is fishing for Bernie Sander’s vote on that one, and the Senate would have to consider HCR important enough to bargain against. :-p

    Again, I’m not sure the wisdom of giving Bernanke the boot anyway. Would Obama even get to replace him, or would we see a DeMint-TSA style indefinitely “fuck you” hold on all Presidential Nominees to the left of Hank Paulson.

  19. 19.

    Shalimar

    January 27, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    Then we’re screwed. I think there is a significant contingent in the Democratic party (with Rahm in the front, though not the only leader) that wants this to fail, because passing it might piss off some of those huge corporations they have been courting for 15 years. And the corporations are now able to give as much as they want, so it is just as likely that the recent Supreme Court decision is influencing their thinking as it is that the entire party fell apart because of one election in Massachusetts.

  20. 20.

    Lev

    January 27, 2010 at 12:13 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Better idea, actually.

    Truth be told, I’m not sure what to expect from Obama tonight. But I’m going to watch, and I’m not going to make up my mind ahead of time.

  21. 21.

    Corner Stone

    January 27, 2010 at 12:13 pm

    @Tim F.:

    Even if I wasn’t so confident, I can guarantee that we fail if Obama chickens out in his SOTU. Either way he’s basically our only chance.

    “Obama Wan Kenobie, you’re our only hope.”

  22. 22.

    ChrisWWW

    January 27, 2010 at 12:15 pm

    @Corner Stone:
    I believe we were told it was “magical thinking.”

  23. 23.

    Lurker

    January 27, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    Called Representative Adam Schiff’s office again today. I told the polite staffer to pass the Senate bill as-is.

    I then vented a bit about how access to health care will determine where I work, where I live, and whether or not I can even stay in this country. All because I have a preexisting condition.

    I was too emotional to ask Schiff’s position this time.

  24. 24.

    Shalimar

    January 27, 2010 at 12:19 pm

    At this point, it’s either magical thinking or pray for 50 adults to suddenly grow a spine simultaneously.

  25. 25.

    kay

    January 27, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    I think the Senate threw it to the House after the MA election and then the House threw it back to the Senate and now Congress is throwing it to Obama.
    Admittedly, it might have been quicker had we known the Senate can’t function at all, and it had started with the President, but we didn’t know that.
    I should say I didn’t know it. I don’t know if Obama knew it.
    I’d like Obama to send a clear signal to the Senate, if for no other reason than someone needs to call their latest bluff.
    If Congress can’t debate and then pass legislation, people should know that. Then it really is all up to the President.

  26. 26.

    aimai

    January 27, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    I wish Obama could fake being half the man I thought he was. I know that’s kind of a sore point for a lot of commenters. Its like the compositional fallacy for voters. I really loved Dreams From My Father, and I assumed that that person, whose mother was such an incredible stand up anthropologist and cultural visionary, would get better political advice than he seems to be getting. But I’ve lost hope over the last year that Obama was going to meet the very real challenges he and we face head on, aggressively, as they need to be faced. The problem with choosing incremental change is that you often don’t even get that. And when you have to go back to the voters and tell them what you’ve accomplished “I tried to get incremental change and I didn’t” or “I backfilled a hole left by my predecessor, with water that’s draining out and I need to keep bailing” are just not great answers. I mean, they’re true, but they are very unsatisfying to the voter.

    I hate to resort to a cliche but “Aim for the stars: you might miss but at least you won’t shoot off your own foot” seems to be a good motto to communicate to the Dems and to Obama. If he’d sailed through and gotten HRC to his desk, even massively watered down as it is, we’d all be (mostly) applauding. But apparently he’s not going to sail through and though the house dems and senate dems are begging for leadership so far he’s refusing to give them what they seem to think they need. What are we to think? How much longer are we to hope that he does what he promised to do–which is to lead?

    aimai

  27. 27.

    CaseyL

    January 27, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    @Tomlinson: Ditto that.

    I called Cantwell, Murray, Inslee, McDermott, and Baird.

    In all cases, the HCR point person, if there was one, was either “out of the office” or “in a meeting.”

    However, everyone I actually spoke to was sympathetic and took my name. Also, they all asked if I were calling on behalf of an organization, which leads me to wonder who else is whipping up a phone assault.

    Anyway, I basically told them all:

    1. PTDB.

    2. I’m not angry at Cantwell, Murray, Inslee, McDermott, or Baird themselves, but am completely disillusioned in and devastated by the Dems as a party.

    3. If they don’t PTDB – in view of the Dem majorities, in view of how important HCR is, etc. etc. – then I and a lot of others like me will wonder why we bother supporting and voting for Dems at all.

    4. Also, if they don’t PTDB, is healthcare no longer 20% of the economy? Are 30+ uninsured people no longer a standing moral reproach to the rest of us? Will the continuing escalation of premiums, the continuing recissions/denials of care, the coming collapse of the economy under the pressure of rising HCR costs, and all the other dangers the President and the Dems invoked as a reason why HCR was absolutely, vitally urgent – are all those things no longer true?

    I tried to call the White House, but “all operators are handling other callers,” and I have a lot of reading I need to do for school today. Maybe I’ll try again later.

  28. 28.

    Alex S.

    January 27, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    RRAAAAAAAAHHHHHMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!

  29. 29.

    DonBelacquaDelPurgatorio

    January 27, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    See my most recent post on the Overlapping Battles thread.

    I am not sure it matters what the White House does right now. But it might matter to the White House what we do, and that might make a difference.

  30. 30.

    kay

    January 27, 2010 at 12:27 pm

    @Shalimar:

    At this point, it’s either magical thinking or pray for 50 adults to suddenly grow a spine simultaneously.

    It won’t really fly, will it?

    “We, 51 Senators, did not pass a health care reconciliation bill because the President was insufficiently forceful on passage during the State of the Union speech”.

    God knows how they justify holding a majority when a President of the opposite Party is in power. This President would sign it, and they cannot get it to him. Imagine if they had a majority under a GOP President. They’d do nothing at all?

  31. 31.

    Face

    January 27, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    This bill aint getting passed. Blood, stone, turnip, or something like that.

    Not in an election year, not facing the Drudge/Fox/Limbaugh firestorm, not by chickenshit Dems.

  32. 32.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 12:29 pm

    @cleek:

    Well it depends on who he says it to.

  33. 33.

    valdivia

    January 27, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    @kay:

    Yes, this. I also note from Ezra that he has been talking to Congressional aides who are ALL saying its Obama who has to tell them what to do. Ok, I think he can tell them what to do. And then? He has been telling them to get HCR done and it has not mattered a wit. I think they just don’t want to legislate and this is JUST AN EXCUSE.

  34. 34.

    Alex S.

    January 27, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    Well, Obama is in the position Reagan found himself in 1980. If HCR had already passed it would have been the biggest policy shift within a year since…. 1934? (HCR + stimulus + ledbetter + hatecrimes etc…) Reagan was patient and his change came slowly at first. His first Supreme Court nomination was moderate Sandra Day O’Connor. He reappointed Paul Volcker. His biggest tax reforms came in his 6th year in office! Also, Reagan had to fend off a double-dip recession for his first 2 years.

    However, the Democrats don’t give me the impression that they actually want to change the political climate in the way Reagan did (and Pat Robertson and Milton Friedman). And there’s the conflict between Congress and Obama.

  35. 35.

    JohnR

    January 27, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    Yup, Harry Reid has moved on to other Important Stuff, and the White House is considering what to do next. I think I know what’s going to happen next. I’ll keep bailing, but the Titanic is taking on water pretty fast.

  36. 36.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 12:36 pm

    And for the love of God, can we keep this in perspective please? Both houses have passed bills, and the fate of reform is entirely dependent on inter-chamber negotiations right now. Entirely. And you want the President to come in bigfooting in on that in the biggest political set speech of the year? How? Demanding that the Senate use reconcilliation to do what the House wants? Demanding that House progressives and blue dogs get in line and pass the Senate bill? I get sort of annoyed when internet lefties whine about “hippie punching,” but even I don’t really thinking scolding egotistical lawmakers in your own party in a nationally televised speech on every fucking channel is the best way to go about making friends and influencing people.

    The problem at the moment, as I see it anyway, is that it isn’t at all clear how many votes the Senate has for a reconcilliation fix. Once that’s clear, for better or worse, then everyone will have a better idea of how to proceed. But until then what is the White House supposed to do in such a high profile public setting?

  37. 37.

    Cat

    January 27, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    @Corner Stone:
    Hah. Exactly.

    BJ Frontpagers are all the time going on and on how its the House and Senates fault and not Obama’s, but now all of a sudden the narrative is Obama can give a rousing SOTU give a little leadership and Boom the senate bill gets passed and they fix it in reconciliation.

    WTF????

  38. 38.

    kay

    January 27, 2010 at 12:39 pm

    @valdivia:

    I’ll take them at their word. It flies in the face of the fact that they haven’t passed student loan legislation, which is small and popular, or cap and trade, which is large and unpopular, or a jobs bill, but, okay. They’re frozen in place unless Obama takes responsibility for the legislation they drafted.

    But what do incumbent Democratic Senators tell voters?

    “We couldn’t move anything in our majority and it’s the fault of the President”

    I’m not buying that, in the context of a state-wide Senate race. Who is going to?

    They have spent the last year preening and bloviating and bickering before cameras, making themselves the center of the universe. They’re now going to say they can’t pass a bill with a simple majority because they aren’t powerful enough?

  39. 39.

    valdivia

    January 27, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    @Brien Jackson:

    I was coming here to say this and see you beat me to it. So unless Obama tells them to do it they won’t do it. WTF? what in the hell do we have a congress for then? Also–every time the Obama team has told the senate/house to go one way–they go the other! Remember when Reid told Obama he had the votes for a public option, Reid told him to trust him? Yeah that really worked out great eh? If I were Obama I would trust Reid as far as I can throw him.

  40. 40.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    @aimai:

    the house dems and senate dems are begging for leadership

    What the fuck does this even mean?

  41. 41.

    Shalimar

    January 27, 2010 at 12:43 pm

    @valdivia:

    He has been telling them to get HCR done and it has not mattered a wit. I think they just don’t want to legislate and this is JUST AN EXCUSE.

    There’s a big difference between giving speeches about what you want and actually having your staff put in the work to negotiate and change votes in your favor. Look at what they have done on Bernanke. When Obama wants to twist arms, he has shown the ability (or Rahm has, depending on how you look at it). He just doesn’t show the desire on progressive goals. And there isn’t any evidence that the White House has meaningfully pushed HCR on a vote by vote basis.

  42. 42.

    El Cid

    January 27, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    @Alex S.: There were the massive and severely damaging 1981 tax cuts Reagan shoved through, and that was partly what had to be fixed by the 1986 reforms.

  43. 43.

    tazistanjen

    January 27, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    Well, I am on hold. So at least a lot of people are calling.

  44. 44.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 12:45 pm

    @Shalimar:

    Well, the fact that they’re not the same arms kind of matters too. I get tired of saying it, but the fact remains that there’s no such thing as a singular entity known as “Senate Democrats.” There are 59 individuals in the Democratic caucus, and there’s a lot of variation between them at the margins.

  45. 45.

    FormerSwingVoter

    January 27, 2010 at 12:45 pm

    So… this is Obama’s plan? Spend a year telling everyone how vital it is to get health reform passed, then when a single special election doesn’t go your way you just wander off and hope no one notices? Despite having a clear endgame directly in front of you?

    Fuck him.

  46. 46.

    Zifnab

    January 27, 2010 at 12:46 pm

    @aimai:

    If he’d sailed through and gotten HRC to his desk, even massively watered down as it is, we’d all be (mostly) applauding. But apparently he’s not going to sail through and though the house dems and senate dems are begging for leadership so far he’s refusing to give them what they seem to think they need.

    Oh bullshit.

    You’re right. He could lean on the House and demand they pass the Senate HCR Bill. And then he’d have some paper to sign.

    But, ultimately, you’re not talking about an Obama problem. You’re talking about a Senate problem. Obama can’t make the Senate do anything. He can tempt and cajole and plead and rebuke. But he only has so many chips to play and the Good Ole Boys in the upper house have always been a difficult rock to move.

    In the Senate, it’s an obstructionist’s game. The Republicans are happy to let the government fail. Letting them shut down government wouldn’t necessarily work in the Dem’s favor.

    And the Senate Democrats don’t want leadership. They’re happy to run around with 59 puffed up egos. No one wants to be told what to do. Every committee chairman has his own little kingdom, and the Majority Leader gets to play Senate bitch.

    The problems begin and end in the Senate. Blaming Obama or Pelosi or anyone else for the HCR mess is futile and silly.

  47. 47.

    Midnight Marauder

    January 27, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    @Brien Jackson:

    the house dems and senate dems are begging for leadership

    What the fuck does this even mean?

    I think it means they are afraid to do their fucking jobs.

  48. 48.

    tazistanjen

    January 27, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    Says here the direct number for the comment line is 202-456-1111.

    Hmmm hmmm hmmm. Still on hold. Good thing long distance isn’t expensive any more.

  49. 49.

    Lolis

    January 27, 2010 at 12:48 pm

    I am tired of reading about the Congress critters who are afraid of their own shadows and don’t want to legislate. Does it suck that they expect Obama to lay down the law like a mean daddy? Yes. But clearly Congress wants to be told what to do so. So Obama has to step up and take off his belt. Congress obviously wants to be whipped.

    But, goddamn, am I tired of the excuses.

  50. 50.

    valdivia

    January 27, 2010 at 12:48 pm

    Um the WH spent the last 2 weeks getting the two bills together. They had included reconciliation int he budget in case they needed (back in April), then Mass happened and ALL the congress people went around yelling We Are Doomed. They were so freaking hysterical they were on TV killing their own agenda. So I actually think given this is the congress Obama has to work with and what the Senate is, that he can push arms here and there but REID is the one who is always getting in the fucking way of smart strategy.

  51. 51.

    Chyron HR

    January 27, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    @Corner Stone:
    @ChrisWWW:
    @Cat:

    Compare and contrast:

    “I want Aslan the Lion to march up to Capitol Hill and make them draft and pass a single-payer health care bill!”

    vs

    “Congress has completely abandoned any pretense of legislating, so our only chance of passing anything is for Aslan the Lion to force them to do their jobs at least one more time.”

  52. 52.

    Dave C

    January 27, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    Here have some potentially good news:

    “We’re going to let the President’s words speak for themselves,” is the message Pfeiffer delivered to Hill staff, according to the official. “There will be additional details that he will share tonight, and he will make it clear that his commitment to addressing this challenge in a comprehensive way is as strong today as it was when he stood in the same spot in September to address the nation on health care.”

    There had been some talk that Obama might call for a scaled-down approach tonight. Others wondered whether he would give the issue short shrift. But both of those possibilities seem unlikely, given what Pfeiffer is telling Hill staff.

  53. 53.

    arguingwithsignposts

    January 27, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    What are you people talking about. Don’t you know there are more important things happening?!?! Steve Jobs is about to announce his new iThingamajig!

  54. 54.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    @Midnight Marauder:

    I think it means they’re trying to shift blame myself. I mean, am I supposed to believe that both houses suddenly are going to do exactly what the White House tells them to do? After they’ve alternated telling the White House to fuck off everytime the White House takes a side on any question? Come on.

  55. 55.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    @valdivia:

    I think Reid made a blunder with the public option, but in the end I’m not sure it mattered much. It certainly doesn’t make much difference now.

    The problem is what we thought it was; wanking conservadems, Joe Lieberman, liberal Senators like Byrd and Feingold who are obsessed with procedure, and Democratic Senators who prioritize protecting their individual influence over the chamber above all else. Same as it ever was.

  56. 56.

    Midnight Marauder

    January 27, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    @Chyron HR:

    Compare and contrast:
    __
    “I want Aslan the Lion to march up to Capitol Hill and make them draft and pass a single-payer health care bill!”
    __
    vs
    __
    “Congress has completely abandoned any pretense of legislating, so our only chance of passing anything is for Aslan the Lion to force them to do their jobs at least one more time.”

    Bingo. It’s all about context.

  57. 57.

    Mark S.

    January 27, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    @valdivia:

    If I were Obama I would trust Reid as far as I can throw him.

    If I were a House Dem I wouldn’t either, and that’s why they are reluctant to PTDB. Well, there are other reasons, some stupid (Stupak?), but it ain’t a done deal.

    Also, we’re a long way from the days when George Washington wouldn’t sully his hands in the legislative process. If a President wants something passed, he’s got to get in there and make it happen.

  58. 58.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 27, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    @valdivia:

    but REID is the one who is always getting in the fucking way of smart strategy.

    I don’t think Reid is the problem. As someone else mentioned, look at the abject panic from Senators after MA: Tough guy Webb, McCaskill. Idiot Evan couldn’t even wait till the results are in. That said, I think if the House would just PTDB, it would create some momentum for the fix. It would be nice if they could get 50 Senators to publicly commit, but it would also be nice if french fries were good for you.

  59. 59.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 12:58 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    That said, I think if the House would just PTDB, it would create some momentum for the fix. It would be nice if they could get 50 Senators to publicly commit, but it would also be nice if french fries were good for you.

    +1

  60. 60.

    danimal

    January 27, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    This really is up to the House and the Senate to resolve.

    Put another way, if the House passed the Senate bill today, would Obama sign it? Duh. If the Senate passed the House bill today, would Obama sign it? Of course.

    Obama wants the signing ceremony, but he’s not going to go to the mat for the particulars of the bill (excise task, Nebraska funding, etc). This has been his position since the public option debate was raging. Obama will restate his position and his desire for a bill, but he won’t get dragged into the congressional swamp, despite the desires of some weak-kneed senators and reps.

  61. 61.

    kay

    January 27, 2010 at 1:01 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Webb was always wobbly. Always. I think the count in the Senate for health care reform was vastly over-stated.

    I don’t know: you can look at it two ways. Reid held that mess together long enough to get one vote, through sheer force of will and momentum, or Reid is a weak leader who can’t corral 60 votes. I’m leaning towards the former.

  62. 62.

    Camchuck

    January 27, 2010 at 1:01 pm

    IMHO, its not about the WH whipping votes or saying PTDB. The key is making the proper sales pitch to the general public. Its about defining the attributes of the Senate HCR and directing an effective narrative. People like much of what’s in the bill but somehow still hate the bill.

  63. 63.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 27, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    Egad, I always thought John Cole was exaggerating the influence of FDL. Maybe I was right but this just took my breath away.

    Victory: Mike Stark Gives 36,000 Signatures of Thanks to Rep. Raul Grijalva
    By: Jane Hamsher Wednesday January 27, 2010 7:52 am
    This morning, PhRMA and AHIP are seeing their sweetheart deals with Rahm Emanuel fizzle. The Senate is in disarray because the House won’t pass their corporate giveaway, and Harry Reid says their bill is going nowhere.

    We won this round. The White House/Baucus bill is DOA.

    But none of this would have been possible had Raul Grijalva not stood his ground and refused to budge when every vote counted. Even when it was considered a fait accompli that the public option was obsolete and the Senate must be obeyed, Grijalva stubbornly refused to go along. He showed leadership throughout, and stood on principle when others were fleeing.

  64. 64.

    Violet

    January 27, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    Obama could signal to everyone, though comments in the SOTU or via a WH mouthpiece that he wants the bill passed. He hasn’t. He’s used phrases like, “we’ve had a little bit of a buzz saw this week” or that Congress shouldn’t “jam” health reform through before Brown was seated.

    Statements like that don’t make it sound like he’s pushing for it and wants Congress to get it’s act together. He could easily use phrases like, “The American people are counting on us to reform health care” or “We’ve got this far, now it’s time to move the ball across the goal line.” Those types of things indicate his preferences without telling Congress how to do their business.

    But we haven’t heard stuff like that. Not one bit.

  65. 65.

    Mark S.

    January 27, 2010 at 1:03 pm

    @Zifnab:

    The problems begin and end in the Senate. Blaming Obama or Pelosi or anyone else for the HCR mess is futile and silly.

    This I agree entirely with. Unless they reform that stupid filibuster rule, the only things I ever see passing ever again are tax cuts, wars on brown people, and more tax cuts. It’s a club for white millionaires; they think things are going great as long as they can get re-elected.

  66. 66.

    kay

    January 27, 2010 at 1:06 pm

    @danimal:

    I agree with you in principle, but they can’t get anything done. I mean, he’s looking at a long three years without forcing something through.
    They can’t get a jobs bill out. They can’t get student loan legislation out. Cap and trade is a joke. The one and only reason they got the stimulus out is they knew they were looking at 20% unemployment without some intervention.

  67. 67.

    Michael

    January 27, 2010 at 1:06 pm

    OT – Pass me the Freedom Fries. I want to eat them while I play a Lee Greenwood song about being Proud to be American. This is the story of a woman ordered to remain in a hospital to protect her fetus.
    **********************************************
    http://apnews.myway.com//article/20100126/D9DFEE9G1.html

    Samantha Burton wanted to leave the hospital. Her doctor strongly disagreed, enough to go to court to keep her there.

    She smoked cigarettes during the first six months of her pregnancy and was admitted on a false alarm of premature labor. Her doctor argued she was risking a miscarriage if she didn’t quit smoking immediately and stay on bed rest in the hospital, and a judge agreed.

    Three days after the judge ordered her not to leave the hospital, Burton delivered a stillborn fetus by cesarean section.

    And six months after the pregnancy ended, the dispute over the legal move to keep her in the hospital continues, raising questions about where a mother’s right to decide her own medical treatment ends and where the priority of protecting a fetus begins.

  68. 68.

    Ana Gama

    January 27, 2010 at 1:06 pm

    @Violet:

    Obama could signal to everyone, though comments in the SOTU or via a WH mouthpiece that he wants the bill passed. He hasn’t.

    But maybe he will yet. See Dave C.’s post # 52.

  69. 69.

    ChrisWWW

    January 27, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    Obama has the ear of the media. He’d make pretty big waves if he decided to call out individual members of Congress for getting in the way of health care reform. Instead, Obama is taking the blame for the whole thing going pear shaped.

    If he’s honestly done all he can, he might as well force the true culprits to face the spotlight and the anger of the base, even if they are ostensibly in the Democratic party.

    The reason Susan Collins won’t vote for health care reform is because her own party is willing to disown her if she does. Democrats, and Obama specifically, need to be equally cutthroat when it comes to signature legislation. If Lieberman doesn’t vote for the bill, he loses his committee. If Ben Nelson doesn’t vote for the bill, he loses DNC funding. And on and on.

  70. 70.

    CaseyL

    January 27, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    The reading I’m doing for school is, BTW, all about healthcare and insurance.

    And I gotta tell you, reading about the various insurance structures – HMO with or without IPA; PPO; reimbursements and copays and previously set coverage limits and how physician offices bill the insurance companies as a courtesy to the patient, not because they have to, because they could if they wanted bill the patient and leave it to the patient to get reimbursed by the insurance company – is SO INCREDIBLY DEPRESSING because it’s only going to get worse from here on out.

    Congress blew this one big time.

    And, as usual, Congress won’t be the ones who feel the effects of their failure. We will.

    I really have to wonder how medical care is going to continue at all in this country, esp. as employers decide they can’t afford to offer coverage anymore. I don’t think there are enough filthy rich people to sustain a national healthcare system.

    I guess we really are going backward to feudalism.

  71. 71.

    Joy

    January 27, 2010 at 1:10 pm

    Just saw this on Greg Sargent’s blog–Obama will reaffirm strong commitment to comprehensive reform

    http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/health-care/obama-will-reaffirm-strong-commitment-to-comprehensive-reform-white-house-tells-hill-staff/

  72. 72.

    jibeaux

    January 27, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    Well, look, setting aside the debate over whether Congresscritters should need Obama to hold their hands in this or not (because, no, they shouldn’t, but these are Democratic politicians we’re talking about. I’ve seen kittens with greater force of their convictions), he definitely needs to swing for the fences on this one. One, because it’s the right thing to do, it’s an issue worth fighting for. If he’s forceful and it still isn’t enough, that sucks, but at least no one can shift the blame from Congress to him and say if he wasn’t willing to stick up for it, then why should anyone else. Congress will take the brunt of the blame. But if he isn’t forceful, then it almost definitely won’t go anywhere, and he and Congress both will be blamed, and blogs like this one will just be debating who deserves more of it. I am hoping desperately for a real Come to Jesus SOTU, and I’m sure by the time Conan comes on I will be +4 instead, but for now, hope.

  73. 73.

    Tractarian

    January 27, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    that essentially puts the entire game up to an argument between Rahm and David Plouffe

    I hope he goes with the guy who gave him a great 2008, not the guy who gave him a lousy 2009.

    By the way, I totally agree with Tim that if Obama says PTDB tonight, then that should be enough to get 218 + 50 for the reconciliation fix.

    Who would be the senators on the fence? Let’s assume these 4 would vote against: Landrieu, Bayh, Lincoln, Ben Nelson. That leaves you with 55. Here’s ten more that could go either way:

    Begich, Pryor, McCaskill, Lieberman, Johnson, Conrad, Bill Nelson, Hagan, Warner, Webb.

    These are the senators that we need to pressure. We can afford to lose 5 of them and still pass reconciliation with 50+Biden.

  74. 74.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    @ChrisWWW:

    He’d make pretty big waves if he decided to call out individual members of Congress for getting in the way of health care reform.

    Well 217 members of the House and 40 Senators voted against the bills, and now you have Stupak and House progressives, and 8-12 Senate Democrats gumming up the works. Who’s he going to single out?

  75. 75.

    tazistanjen

    January 27, 2010 at 1:14 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    36,000 signatures? Wow. I am gobsmacked.

  76. 76.

    rikyrah

    January 27, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    the watered down piece of shit from the Senate was what the WH wanted. yet, they won’t call in the BLUE DOG caucus in the house and tell them to get off their asses and vote for it?

    but, they can do whatever needs to be done to keep Bernake around?

  77. 77.

    bobbyk

    January 27, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    The White House might be unsure about what to do about their signature piece of legislation, but that hasn’t stopped them from whipping senators on Bernanke.

    Priorities.

    Um yeah, this has always been the problem hasn’t it. If they really want something done they get it done-don’t they. If they’re not pressing for HCR that tells me it’s not really a priority for them.

  78. 78.

    ChrisWWW

    January 27, 2010 at 1:17 pm

    @Brien Jackson:
    A handful of the people most susceptible to the kind of public outrage the President can create. As well as those most strapped for campaign cash.

  79. 79.

    kay

    January 27, 2010 at 1:17 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    It’s such nonsense, because the lack of a public option isn’t why he opposed the bill. It was because of the excise tax, and unions.
    Did he tell them that’s why he opposed the bill? Because he was holding out for a public option?

  80. 80.

    mantis

    January 27, 2010 at 1:17 pm

    The White House might be unsure about what to do about their signature piece of legislation, but that hasn’t stopped them from whipping senators on Bernanke.

    Priorities.

    Well, ok, but Bernanke’s term ends Sunday. The vote is tomorrow. The fact that they are working on that doesn’t necessarily mean they consider it more important than HCR. There’s no deadline on passing that legislation (even though I wish there was).

  81. 81.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 27, 2010 at 1:19 pm

    @kay:
    I didn’t, couldn’t, read the whole thing. I am a bit surprised she got 36K signatures, but I guess if Kos had a million readers a month, that’s not so much, especially if there were links all around the whine-o-sphere. It’s the childish triumphalism at having (in her mind) caused this clusterfuck.

  82. 82.

    gex

    January 27, 2010 at 1:20 pm

    @Michael: A few years back the state of Utah brought manslaughter charges against a woman who opted not to have a C-section. Wimmin’ folk are only here to birth the good ol’ boys’ babies, dontcha know.

    Is it murder to refuse a C-section?

    Particularly apropos during the HCR debate. Get this really expensive procedure you can’t afford and we won’t subsidize under penalty of imprisonment. There are a lot of average Americans who don’t really understand the implications of giving in to the American Taliban. Their moral codes aren’t just for the gays.

    (I also like to note that the thing that people in Utah would say is wrong with gays is that it is not natural. So what’s the deal with the C-section?)

  83. 83.

    Violet

    January 27, 2010 at 1:20 pm

    @Ana Gama:
    I hope you are right. I’ll be watching the SOTU. We’ll see what he does, I guess.

    @Camchuck:

    IMHO, its not about the WH whipping votes or saying PTDB. The key is making the proper sales pitch to the general public. Its about defining the attributes of the Senate HCR and directing an effective narrative.

    This is exactly right. Messaging is SUCH a key part of governing these day. And especially now that you have the Republicans just trying to say no over and over with no other goals but power, it’s essential. And their messaging has been horrid. It should always be about how this helps Americans. How it helps businesses save money and create jobs. Over and over again.

    People like much of what’s in the bill but somehow still hate the bill.

    This is so true. Polls show people want what’s in the bill. But for some reason (Hello, Fox News and lazy MSM) they think they “hate the bill.” It’s crazy. Why do they think that? See above. Crappy messaging from the WH and other Dem leadership.

  84. 84.

    jibeaux

    January 27, 2010 at 1:20 pm

    @Camchuck:

    I also think this is a very good point. People are not terribly informed, and the polls show that while opinion is divided about passing the bill, support goes up if the question also explains what’s in the damn bill. If people were logical, they would decline to answer questions that they don’t know shit about, but obviously that’s not how we roll. So selling the public on it — and Obama when he wants to could probably sell ice to Eskimos — is a necessity and a double-whammy, because Congresscritters care more about losing their jobs than they do about their supposed principles.** They need to feel reassured that the popular support is there.

    ** i.e. Evan Bayh talking about “disasters of Biblical proportions.” Is the disaster that tens of thousands of people will die and suffer unnecessarily, and go into bankruptcy, and not be able to buy insurance because of a chronic condition diagnosed when they were eight years old? No, the Biblical disaster is that a dozen Democrats will have to go work for a living.

  85. 85.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 27, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    @Camchuck: and @Violet:

    Yup

    The provisions that 60 percent or more said would make them more likely to support the bill included:
    — Prohibiting insurance companies from denying coverage or charging higher premiums to those with a medical history or pre-existing conditions.
    — Providing tax credits to small businesses that want to offer coverage to employees.
    — Expanding Medicaid to cover everyone with incomes under $29,000 a year for a family of four.

  86. 86.

    kay

    January 27, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    The WSJ had a front page article yesterday “Obama Falters, Left goes after Chief of Staff”

    That’s productive, right? The Chief of Staff is the problem.

  87. 87.

    Cat

    January 27, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    @Chyron HR:

    “I want Aslan the Lion to march up to Capitol Hill and make them draft and pass a single-payer health care bill!”
    …
    vs
    …
    “Congress has completely abandoned any pretense of legislating, so our only chance of passing anything is for Aslan the Lion to force them to do their jobs at least one more time.”

    Your two statements say the exact same thing in different words, let me just strip out the rhetorical BS.

    Middle of 2009 : “I want Aslan the Lion to march up to Capitol Hill and make them pass a bill”

    vs

    Jan 2010 : “I want Aslan the Lion to march up to Capitol Hill and make them pass a Bill and also force them to not strip out items of my Budget during reconciliation at some later date.”

    Continue pretending they aren’t advocating exactly the same position everyone was saying wasn’t a valid option last year.

  88. 88.

    Mark S.

    January 27, 2010 at 1:25 pm

    @CaseyL:

    If you really want to be depressed, check out this Health Care Budget Deficit Calculator. If we spent per capita what other countries do on health care (oh, and they cover their entire populations), we would be looking at budget surpluses. Instead, we’re going to try to balance the budget by cutting spending on the poor and giving tax cuts to billionaires.

    You’re right: we’re on the road to hell.

  89. 89.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 27, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    I’ll be damned (no pun intended)
    Catholic Bishops to Congress: Ditch the Politics, Pass Health Care

    anyone know Stupakists well enough to know if this will have an effect?

  90. 90.

    Admiral_Komack

    January 27, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    It isn’t up to the President.

    It’s up to the Senate.

    It is the Senate who I will blame; I don’t care what the pundits say (& you know they WILL blame the President).

    FUCK HARRY REID!

  91. 91.

    kay

    January 27, 2010 at 1:35 pm

    @gex:

    I think the broader goal is to use the individual cases to move toward designation of the fetus as a legal “person”. As you may be aware, there is a “movement” at the state level to do just that.
    I have to tell you, I cannot even imagine the legal implications of that designation. It will affect everything from social security to child support to immigration to constitutional issues. And that’s only the fetus. How it affects the pregnant woman, who is, of course, a “person” with all those (perhaps) competing rights, is anyone’s guess.
    It’s mind-boggling to consider.

  92. 92.

    Chat Noir

    January 27, 2010 at 1:35 pm

    Here was a telling quote from last weekend’s NY Times Magazine cover story about Harry Reid:

    He said he thought the White House erred in trying to win the support of Olympia Snowe, the Republican senator from Maine, for a health care compromise. “As I look back it was a waste of time dealing with her,” he said, “because she had no intention of ever working anything out.” And while making clear that he was not complaining, he said Obama may have been asking for too much in his first year. “I personally wish that Obama had a smaller agenda,” he said. “It would be less work.”

  93. 93.

    KDID

    January 27, 2010 at 1:39 pm

    Question:
    (a serious one)
    Are people really calling and saying “Pass the Damn Bill”?
    I’m all for this coinage – but need to know if this is what this campaign is known as.

  94. 94.

    eemom

    January 27, 2010 at 1:39 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Oh, fuck Jane Hamsher.

    If the bill is such a fucking “corporate giveaway” WHY AREN’T the corporations pushing to get it passed??

    GOD, I’m sick of her.

    And btw, never assume she’s telling the truth about anything, including her number of signatures. Facts and truth are not her strong points, to put it mildly.

  95. 95.

    HRA

    January 27, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    @valdivia:

    “Yes, this. I also note from Ezra that he has been talking to Congressional aides who are ALL saying its Obama who has to tell them what to do. Ok, I think he can tell them what to do. And then? He has been telling them to get HCR done and it has not mattered a wit. I think they just don’t want to legislate and this is JUST AN EXCUSE.”

    That is exactly what I have been thinking during this entire Congressional fiasco.
    They have become deers in the headlights. Very few of them handled the teabaggers/dissenters at their townhall meetings during the summer in the right way. Right now all the have on their minds is their upcoming elections. To even think I have been given the added duty at work of government documents which means I will have their stupidity to look at firsthand.

  96. 96.

    kay

    January 27, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    @Chat Noir:

    This is where I disagree with almost every liberal though.

    It IS a huge agenda. It’s health care, energy and finance. That was the agenda. Three huge sectors of the economy with armies of interested parties and lobbyists.

    It was really, really ambitious. When I heard it, it gave me pause, but I thought “what the hell. try”. But I knew it was wildly ambitious.

  97. 97.

    Nick

    January 27, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    In fairness, it’s been three months since the President pushed for Reid to take Olympia Snowe’s trigger deal and pass it before someone changes their mind.

    And Reid still insisted on chasing progressive butterflies.

    I’m not surprised at all the President is backing off, NOW they want leadership? NOW? Why didn’t they take leadership from him when he demanded a bill in August? Why didn’t take they it when he said “take the Snowe deal and run with it?”

    NOW they want him to give them direction? NOW?

  98. 98.

    Chyron HR

    January 27, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    @Cat:

    Continue pretending they aren’t advocating exactly the same position everyone was saying wasn’t a valid option last year.

    Oh, I’m sorry. The correct answer was, “Nobody expects Obama to put any pressure on Congress to pass the bill, they are merely presenting that as the only remaining option for passing it.”

  99. 99.

    SiubhanDuinne

    January 27, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    @Chat Noir: That’s just sickening. It puts Reid in exactly the same territory as Dubya, who was always whining about what haaaaard wooooork it was bein’ Preznit. Goddammittohell. If these people don’t want to do the hard word, then don’t fucking run for office. Period.

  100. 100.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 1:43 pm

    @ChrisWWW:

    Such as? Without names it’s just magic thinking.

  101. 101.

    SiubhanDuinne

    January 27, 2010 at 1:43 pm

    @Chat Noir:

    That’s just sickening. It puts Reid in exactly the same territory as Dubya, who was always whining about what haaaaard wooooork it was bein’ Preznit. Goddammittohell. If these people don’t want to do the hard work, then don’t fucking run for office. Period.

    (Edited out a typo. What happened to the edit function? FYWP etc.)

  102. 102.

    Chat Noir

    January 27, 2010 at 1:47 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: Yes, those were my thoughts when I read the article.

  103. 103.

    Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion

    January 27, 2010 at 1:47 pm

    Busy. All day. Beep. Beep. Beep. Kind of a metaphor for the situation of the American voter, ain’t it?

  104. 104.

    southpaw

    January 27, 2010 at 1:49 pm

    You should just send people to the White House comment line:

    (202) 456-1111

    That’s what the switchboard operators will put you into if you call the main number.

  105. 105.

    aimai

    January 27, 2010 at 1:54 pm

    Dear Brien,

    “The house and Senate dems are begging for leadership” isn’t my personal opinion. Personally, I think they should have figured out a long time ago that their best interests as a party, and their personal interest in maintaining control over the major committees in congress long term, is in passing the bill. But *this is the information that people are getting when they call their congresscritters and senators*. I’m sorry if it doesn’t fit in with your preconceived notions about politics but really that plea seems to be out there. Take it up with the Dems. Really. I got the same impression talking to Capuano’s person a few days ago.

    aimai

  106. 106.

    ChrisWWW

    January 27, 2010 at 1:58 pm

    @Brien Jackson:
    Figuring that out is a job for Rahm and Co., not me. But if that kind of pressure can keep Susan Collins in line, why can’t it work somewhat on the Democratic side?

  107. 107.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 2:00 pm

    @aimai:

    And, again, what does it mean? I mean, Congress has leadership. So what they want is White House involvement. But up to now, everytime the White House has weighed in, someone on the Hill has told them to fuck off. So what am I supposed to believe now, that Congressional Democrats are universally ready to do whatever Rahmbama tells them to do? That seems unlikely to me. Looks more like simple excuse making to me.

  108. 108.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    @ChrisWWW:

    Because Democratic Sentors at the margin aren’t the cowards marginal Republicans are.

  109. 109.

    Jay B.

    January 27, 2010 at 2:02 pm

    I agree with Tim. Of course, I think it’s doubly funny to watch the contortions of the people who continue to think that the President is powerless in this situation. “Want him Bigfooting now?”

    Clearly. Yes. Ezra’s column, if you want to believe it, has Capitol Hill staffers needing direction from the White House. Pleading for it. Would a clear statement from Obama — i.e. passing the Senate bill, or something — help fence-sitters and other Congress folk make a decision? Of course.

    It takes a particular kind of obtuseness to completely disregard the President’s role as the political leader of the country and the nation. But it’s clear Obama doesn’t want to stick his neck out, so Congress flails aimlessly. Why? Because different Congressional leaders have different priorities. That’s where a President comes in. Would a Freshman Congressman buck his President, the leader of his party and the most powerful man in the world if he made a forceful statement on his priorities?

    To deny that the President has that kind of power flies in the face of reality, history and actual, on the ground politics. Christ, it’s so obvious, it’s a cliche.

    But even if you choose to disregard what people on Capitol Hill say — and have said throughout this process — it’s even MORE obvious that, right now, the Democrats need a leader. Anyone. One would hope that it would be the actual leader of the party, the guy who got elected in a landslide and is still personally popular, to point the way to those wavering or waiting for someone to step up.

    That’s not even obvious politics, although it is, it’s human nature.

  110. 110.

    Tomlinson

    January 27, 2010 at 2:02 pm

    Personally, I think they should have figured out a long time ago that their best interests as a party, and their personal interest in maintaining control over the major committees in congress long term, is in passing the bill. But this is the information that people are getting when they call their congresscritters and senators.

    I’m seriously blown away by how disorganized this group has managed to be. I mean, seriously, a Coakley defeat was a serious possibility and had been for weeks. TPM even did some worrying about it, very publicly. And yet the entire party falls into complete disarray when it happens?

    WTF would these dipshits do if the country were attacked? Fall into sheer catatonia? Literally shit their pants and then spend a few weeks looking for toilet paper? Withdraw into themselves and spend all their days mumbling incoherently about social issues?

  111. 111.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 2:06 pm

    @Jay B.:

    And again, everytime the White House pops in, someone tells them to fuck off. Reid told them he knew what he was doing by including the opt-out public option when they told him it was a bad idea, and Pelosi told them to shut up when they voiced support for the excise tax. They’ve taken it from pretty much every side on the hill, and no one has really shown any desire to listen to them so far. But I’m supposed to believe all we need is Rahm to crack some heads, or that everyone in Congress is suddenly ready to do whatever Obama says. That stretches credulity much too far, given how COngressional Democrats have acted to date.

  112. 112.

    Violet

    January 27, 2010 at 2:07 pm

    @Brien Jackson:

    And, again, what does it mean? I mean, Congress has leadership.

    My Rep’s office intern told me my Rep was waiting for “leadership from Obama and Pelosi.” I guess they want to be tole what to do. No idea what word Pelosi is putting out to the Dem Reps, if anything at all.

    @Tomlinson:

    WTF would these dipshits do if the country were attacked?

    Stand on the Capitol steps and sing “God Bless America,” of course.

    eyeroll

  113. 113.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 2:08 pm

    @Tomlinson:

    Well if the votes aren’t there, I’m not sure what they could have done earlier.

  114. 114.

    Corner Stone

    January 27, 2010 at 2:08 pm

    @Chyron HR: If you are making some kind of point here it has nothing to do with me.
    BWTS – what is the difference now if what TimF is saying is actually true?

  115. 115.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 2:10 pm

    @Violet:

    My Rep’s office intern told me my Rep was waiting for “leadership from Obama and Pelosi.” I guess they want to be tole what to do. No idea what word Pelosi is putting out to the Dem Reps, if anything at all.

    Well that’s something anyway, but don’t we know what Pelosi wants, if public statements can be believed? She, and the progressive caucus, wants the Senate to tweak their bill via reconcilliation in conjunction with House action. That’s been said how many times now? Again, it all sounds like excuse making to me. “Don’t blame me, blame someone else for not ‘leading.'”

  116. 116.

    Corner Stone

    January 27, 2010 at 2:11 pm

    @Midnight Marauder:

    It’s all about context.

    Do you think Chyron’s bullshit is contextually accurate?

  117. 117.

    aimai

    January 27, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    Brien,

    I think I see where the problem lies. You don’t have the slightest idea what politics, or bargaining, looks like do you? Here’s a clue: time is of the essence and time affects what decisions people are making.

    Every time a vote is taken, and people make their little calculations about their personal cost/benefit in supporting a given bill, or their leadership, or Obama, or whoever the cost/benefit analysis shifts. It shifts because new polls come out. It shifts because they can see the spread of all the other votes/bargainers and what they are willing to settle for (or not settle for.) It shifts because one guy got his payoff and now regrets it, or the rest want in, or whatever. This is a very complex set of decisions that each individual rep is taking,with more or less forethought, intelligence, and guidance. One of the key issues *right now* is whether the House can do “better” than the Senate Bill *at all.* This issue is a different one from before, when the Senate had not passed its bill and before Scott Brown came and made a second bite at the apple after a conference bill impossible.

    Its true that at *some other point in the negotiations* when time wasn’t so much of the essence, or when some dems thought they might have a 60 vote supermajority some of the time, or when the wind was at their backs, or pink ponies were around that Obama’s “help” or his “leadership” might not have been considered necessary. Right now, apparently, it is considered necessary. Of course that might just be democratic idiocy talking–again, take it up with the senators and with the reps not with people on this board. But what you might consider (although I doubt you will) is that this is just a different time in the negotiations. I know from talking to capuano’s office that one of the key issues for some of the representatives is simply this “is this the best we can do for our constituents or do we all get a second bite at the apple by forcing the senate to give us a better deal.” The role of Obama’s leadership in this matter may be no more than saying, honestly, to the house “no, you are fucked. The senate is so broken that you can’t trust them. If you want to see health care reform passed you are simply going to have to pass the senate bill and hope that in the future we have enough seats that we can try again.” That, too, would be “leadership.” Its not about some obscure notion of leadership qualities or loud voice or whatever. Its about Obama’s technical position in the executive, as a third party in the negotiations, and as the head of the party.

    aimai

  118. 118.

    Da Bomb

    January 27, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    @eemom: Hamsher really does suck. I can’t jump on the “but she’s an activist” bandwagon. I just can’t.

    @Nick: Reid is incompetent and just needs to go. All Congress is doign is shifting their responsibility onto the President. IT IS THEIR JOB TO PASS THE BILL. And we have browbeaten over the past 8 years to think that the President is suppose to give the Congress a binky and burp them into submission. That’s not how it works.

  119. 119.

    Comrade Scrutinizer

    January 27, 2010 at 2:21 pm

    @Brien Jackson:
    This.

    Because when it comes down to nut-cutting time, legislation is the responsibility of legislators, not the President. I’ve had my fill of Presidents who try to get over-involved in that process. The Dems have leadership in the House and in the Senate; leaders that they themselves selected.

    Not to say that I don’t have issues with Obama—I do. But the HCR clusterfuck isn’t his clusterfuck.

  120. 120.

    FlipYrWhig

    January 27, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    Legislator, legislate yourself.

    Or, if you prefer, yo, legislator, go legislate yourself.

  121. 121.

    Jay B.

    January 27, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    @Comrade Scrutinizer:

    The Dems have leadership in the House and in the Senate; leaders that they themselves selected.

    And the American people selected the President. He has power.

    But the HCR clusterfuck isn’t his clusterfuck.

    Right. ‘I am Not the First President to Take Up This Cause, But I am Determined to Be the Last’ .

    You could also use “the buck stops here”.

    If it makes you feel better, the President hasn’t done shit for health care. He’s let the process take place. The endless, destructive, draining process. Despite the shitty process and the spineless, visionless assholes and whores who’ve tried to bitch it all up, there’s a bill. There’s one last thing to do. The Congress, riven by insecurity and timid by nature, needs reassurance that if they pass it, their President will be the one taking the case to the people. Even if you believe that the President’s role is NOT to vigorously pursue his legislative agenda (quite possibly the most ridiculous definition of a President’s role in history — all posturing domestically, moderate role in foreign policy), there HAS to be times when he impolitely steps on Congressional “Leadership” toes and whips the caucus himself. This is, in fact, why he has legislative aides and Congressional liasons and they have meetings with Congressmen and people on the Hill.

    That is, if he really wants to be the “last President to take up health care” and not a helpless bystander in his own Presidency.

  122. 122.

    Tomlinson

    January 27, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    The role of Obama’s leadership in this matter may be no more than saying, honestly, to the house “no, you are fucked. The senate is so broken that you can’t trust them. If you want to see health care reform passed you are simply going to have to pass the senate bill and hope that in the future we have enough seats that we can try again.” That, too, would be “leadership.” Its not about some obscure notion of leadership qualities or loud voice or whatever. Its about Obama’s technical position in the executive, as a third party in the negotiations, and as the head of the party.

    Yup.

    He could also say “You pass this and I will have your back. I will campaign for you, I will fund raise for you, and I will make sure that I sell the merits of this bill, and your contribution to it, to the American people.”

    Which, ultimately, seems to be what these guys are looking for. Some air cover.

  123. 123.

    Midnight Marauder

    January 27, 2010 at 2:44 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Do you think Chyron’s bullshit is contextually accurate?

    That would probably be why I posted a comment agreeing with him and explicitly stating that it was the correct context. Because this is the difference:

    Oh, I’m sorry. The correct answer was, “Nobody expects Obama to put any pressure on Congress to pass the bill, they are merely presenting that as the only remaining option for passing it.”

    At the end of the day, no matter how much “leadership” and “guidance” Congress needs and desires, the fact remains that at this moment in time, there is a clear refusal to do their duly elected jobs.

    More importantly, we have a SOTU drinking game we need to hash out, good sir.

  124. 124.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 2:50 pm

    @aimai:

    You don’t have the slightest idea what politics, or bargaining, looks like do you?

    When someone knows you best for claiming that Democrats should have threatened to cut off funding for Israel unless Lieberman supported the public option, I wouldn’t be accusing them of not understanding bargaining or politics.

    But yeah, I’ve been around politics for awhile, and “don’t blame me, blame this other person for not providing leadership and/or various other abstract reasons” is pretty much deflection 101. Especially if you’re getting it from a staffer.

    The role of Obama’s leadership in this matter may be no more than saying, honestly, to the house “no, you are fucked. The senate is so broken that you can’t trust them. If you want to see health care reform passed you are simply going to have to pass the senate bill and hope that in the future we have enough seats that we can try again.” That, too, would be “leadership.”

    Well that’s great, and maybe that is all they need right now, but if the votes aren’t there to get a reconcilliation bill, I very much doubt it will take the President to tell everyone. Hell, I’m sure the Senate will be happy to tell the House themselves. If the House won’t believe the Senate, why would they believe the President? Again, taking this at face value just doesn’t add up. It’s a meaningless statement.

  125. 125.

    Jules

    January 27, 2010 at 2:50 pm

    I call bullshit.
    Congress just wants someone to blame for their inability to get HCR done.
    Just pass the damn bill already.

  126. 126.

    Nick

    January 27, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    @Jay B.:

    That is, if he really wants to be the “last President to take up health care” and not a helpless bystander in his own Presidency.

    But he wasn’t, that’s the point…he demanded a bill by August, Congress said “nah, we’ll take our time” so the President said fine, give me one by the end of the year, and Congress still took it’s time.

    Who really thinks if he came out and demanded reconciliation now, in two weeks, Congress would take the direction and move on it post haste? They won’t, they’ll turn around and say “that damn Obama is asking us to do too much, and take our focus off the economy”

    This is an attempt to shift the blame.

  127. 127.

    Da Bomb

    January 27, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    Here’s an interesting poll done by MSNBC of all places.

    A new NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll finds that just 28% of Americans believe the federal government is “working well” or even works “okay,” versus 70% who think it’s “unhealthy,” “stagnant” or needs large reforms.

    What’s more, a whopping 93% believe there’s too much partisan infighting; 84% think the special interests have too much influence over legislation; nearly three-quarters say that not enough has been done to regulate Wall Street and the banking industry; and an equal 61% complain that both Democrats and Republicans in Congress aren’t willing to compromise.”

    Interestingly, the public’s anger isn’t necessarily directed at President Obama.

    “Only 27% say they blame him for not being able to find solutions to the country’s problems. By contrast, 48% blame Republicans in Congress and 41% blame congressional Democrats.”

    Isn’t this the point that some of us have been making all along?

  128. 128.

    Da Bomb

    January 27, 2010 at 2:57 pm

    @Da Bomb: Huge blockquote fail.

  129. 129.

    kay

    January 27, 2010 at 2:58 pm

    @Da Bomb:

    They don’t want to watch Senators talk. I completely sympathize with that. This is the biggest piece of legislation I have followed play by play, and I just think they have no idea how poorly they came off in this thing, both Republicans and Democrats. Some of them. The loudest. Say 15. Both sides.

  130. 130.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 3:00 pm

    @Comrade Scrutinizer:

    I don’t have a problem with the President getting down in the weeds and helping with negotiations or doing anything else that actually needs done, I just don’t believe that generic quotes about “needing Presidential leadership” are legit, in the context of how Congress has been handling things thus far, and I don’t think the SOTU is a good place to crack heads in your own party.

  131. 131.

    Da Bomb

    January 27, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    @kay: I understand that too.

    But the poll showed that the public is blaming Congress and the Senate for their ineptitude and not the President.

  132. 132.

    Brien Jackson

    January 27, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    @Jay B.:

    And the American people selected the President. He has power.

    Obviously, but last I checked “making Congress do something” wasn’t a power of the President. Now he can use his influence to try to get Congress to do something, but he doesn’t have the “power” to. And influence only gets you as far as the people you’re trying to influence will let it get you.

  133. 133.

    Corner Stone

    January 27, 2010 at 3:07 pm

    @Midnight Marauder:

    That would probably be why I posted a comment agreeing with him and explicitly stating that it was the correct context.

    I just wanted to make sure. Because I know you’re crazy but I didn’t think you were also imitating a 3-way bulb set on the first click.
    Because his setup is a false narrative so any context derived is bogus.

    Now, as to drinking. I’ve set my terms. Since you believe he’s bringing a modern day fire and brimstone SOTU, you tell what’s going to float your boat.

  134. 134.

    kay

    January 27, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    @Da Bomb:

    We don’t usually have a front row seat to the horror that is the Senate for a year. It was really very disturbing. Why Max Baucus thinks people want to see so much of him is beyond me. Olympia Snowe, who was never someone I loathed before, now makes me just ill when I see her. I look at her and I think “unable to make a decision!”
    It’s the coyness I can’t stand. The secret smiles and the inability to commit to anything. No wonder people think they’re all corrupt.
    I’ve become much more enamored of the House. They fight a lot but they eventually do or don’t do something or other.

  135. 135.

    danimal

    January 27, 2010 at 3:41 pm

    @Jay B.:

    …the President hasn’t done shit for health care.

    This sentiment is utterly ridiculous.

    There is no way HCR could have gotten this far without the president spending copious amounts of political capital on passing the legislation. Has he made strategic errors? Possibly. Was ther poor messaging at times? Probably. Inaction? No, not really.

    If, as I suspect, Obama has been setting the stage for one final HCR push during the SOTU, we need to support the effort and clear the finish line.

  136. 136.

    Da Bomb

    January 27, 2010 at 3:55 pm

    @kay: And just listening to Bayh and others make so many inane excuses about cost-control and the public option made want to give them a good gut punch.

  137. 137.

    Midnight Marauder

    January 27, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    I just wanted to make sure. Because I know you’re crazy but I didn’t think you were also imitating a 3-way bulb set on the first click.
    Because his setup is a false narrative so any context derived is bogus.
    __
    Now, as to drinking. I’ve set my terms. Since you believe he’s bringing a modern day fire and brimstone SOTU, you tell what’s going to float your boat.

    First of all, I don’t think I’ve ever said anything about expecting “fire and brimstone.” Since it took me forever to find, I’m just going to repost the comment I made a few weeks ago:

    I can’t remember a time in my young life that I was actually excited for a State of the Union address. I think President Obama is going to just fucking kill it. Pitch-perfect, right on message, smacking down nonsense and assclowns left and right, laying out the bold if not very uncertain course forward; I think he sets the tone to really start kicking some ass in 2010 and lets the other folks with the Democratic Party uniform on know, “Hey, it’s time to get our shit together and get some good things done. Enough with the tomfuckery.”

    I wrote that on January 19 and I still believe that now, despite the Lord of the Flies madness that has descended upon Washington DC in the last few weeks. So prepare your drink of choice, good sir, for tonight…

    WE DUEL!

  138. 138.

    deadrody

    January 27, 2010 at 4:40 pm

    LOL!!! You people are so hopelessly delusional. Some compromise with Snowe that doesn’t get her kicked out ? There is no such thing. There is only scrap it and start over. That is the only option.

    Obama is going to kill it at the SOTU ? LOL again!! There is nothing he can say. Nothing. He either pisses off the vast majority of the country that is opposed to HCR and pissed that he is attempting to govern from the far left OR he pisses off you idiots. There is no middle ground.

    What’s worse is, he appears to be going right down the middle – pissing off the far left with stupid crap like the puny spending freeze that everyone from the center to the right correctly recognizes is ineffectual pandering. He’s cooked.

  139. 139.

    Jay B.

    January 27, 2010 at 4:44 pm

    @danimal:

    There is no way HCR could have gotten this far without the president spending copious amounts of political capital on passing the legislation.

    OK, what has he done? “Spent political capital”? Really? He’s made some speeches, sure, but according to three-quarters of the people posting on Balloon Juice, not only is there little he can do, he shouldn’t, it’s not his role. Legislators legislate!

    Here’s what others, on this very thread say about the President and his ability to do anything on health care.

    The very first post:

    If the President says PTDB then the damn bill gets passed

    i do not believe this is a true statement.

    Two others out of the first five seconded and thirded the sentiment.

    #33:

    Yes, this. I also note from Ezra that he has been talking to Congressional aides who are ALL saying its Obama who has to tell them what to do. Ok, I think he can tell them what to do. And then?

    #36:

    And you want the President to come in bigfooting in on that in the biggest political set speech of the year?

    You, at #60:

    This really is up to the House and the Senate to resolve.

    #91:

    It isn’t up to the President.

    It’s up to the Senate.

    #121:

    Because when it comes down to nut-cutting time, legislation is the responsibility of legislators, not the President. I’ve had my fill of Presidents who try to get over-involved in that process.

    It sounds to me like he’s a bystander. Brien Jackson, in every post, says a variation of “Obama’s been told to fuck off whenever he says anything” (of course that’s usually because what Obama is supporting makes things worse for the bill, IMO), so evidently, he’s as useless as tits on a bull.

    Others say he should let legislators legislate, which it certainly seems he has done, and that means he’s done next to nothing as the process spiraled out of control. His fault? Well the general sentiment here is that he’s helpless and that’s ‘reality’.

    It seems weird that you want to give him credit for getting HCR this far, but are not willing to think he still has a role to play if he wants to get it passed.

    As far as “doing shit”, as I originally wrote, the irony is that it was John Edwards and Hilary Clinton that did the real heavy lifting on health care and forced Obama to put a plan out in the first place. He was left with it as a major issue because the voters claimed it to be a priority, so he ran with it. Then hedged, continually, on what he wanted to see in the final bill (other than very vague notions about “affordability and access”) while deferring the details and the plan to Congress. I submit he didn’t spend enough political capital on it, but then, I’m a crazy dreamer looking for his pony plan.

  140. 140.

    Jay B.

    January 27, 2010 at 7:29 pm

    You know who agrees with me? A Congressman.

    “The president is a strong persuader, as they say, and I think it makes an awful lot of difference, and I think he will bring everybody together,” said Rep. John Larson, D-Conn.

    What a pony-wisher! But what the fuck does he know, right Brien? I mean, he’s not just some dickhead on a blog — he’s only a Congressman.

Comments are closed.

Trackbacks

  1. Can you call the White House and ask them to TAKE THE LEAD on Healthcare - Jack & Jill Politics says:
    January 27, 2010 at 1:07 pm

    […] Balloon Juice: Up To Obama Now by Tim […]

  2. Everyone’s Running Around Like A Health Care Bill With Its Head Cut Off « Around The Sphere says:
    January 27, 2010 at 2:00 pm

    […] Tim F.: Until now I have resisted siccing you guys on the White House for reasons that mostly have to do with how the Executive branch is (and should be) institutionally protected from swings in popular opinion. Still, Obama’s talk tonight may decide the game. If the President says PTDB then the damn bill gets passed and our job narrows down to pressuring the Senate to pass a fix, which I think we can do as long as step (1) gets done. If the President asks us to pare down our expectations, then the ballgame’s over. […]

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