A reader writes in:
Why can’t we have a nationally televised debate about HCR and stimulus? The main problem that I see is ignorance. Most people get their news either from cable or the evening and neither one feels like their object is to really inform! If we had a debate (like Obama vs McCain) the truth of these numbers and what would really be accomplished would emerge. Republicans with the aid of Fox News, radio (Beck, Savage, and Limbaugh) control the message and MSM does not contradict them. We need the public to have the opportunity to be educated!!!!!
First off, Democrats already tried to do this over the summer- they were called town hall meetings, and basically they were freeped by a coalition of corporate backed teabaggers, spooked blue hairs who wanted to keep government out of their medicare, shameless Republicans interested in political advantage, and, in no small part, the mainstream media who simply regurgitated all of their bullshit.
I have seen nothing that would suggest that a national town hall meeting would lead to anything different. As entertaining as it was watch Obama make the Republicans look like the idiots that they are at their retreat last week, what really changed? They still believe all their talking points, as do their teabagging base, because this isn’t about facts or logic or reason, this shit is religion to these folks. And it wasn’t more than a few hours that our Politico inspired media was offering “equal time” for the Republicans to edit their remarks and inject more bullshit into the debate. Jeb Hensarling was given multiple opportunities for a do-over immediately after being depantsed, and guess what the media did?
That’s right- they just wrote down what he said and didn’t bother to fact check it or point out he is full of shit. And so it goes.
When you realize that our media is basically a bunch of 12 year olds (see the #dickwhisperer’s column on the sexiness of Orzag for yet more evidence), there simply is nothing you can do to inform the public, half of which chooses to remain uninformed (seen the polling on evolution lately?). Add to it that the Democrats all want different things from the bill, and so value and cherish their independence and willingness to criticize (we’re not like Republicans! We criticize our leaders! Fap! Fap! Fap!) that none of them can suck up their pride and work together, and this would probably just provide another opportunity for a circular firing squad.
I’m getting to the point that I just don’t give a shit anymore. Now that I am recovering quite well from the surgery and exposing myself to more news and politics, I’m thinking maybe being in a percocet haze with a throbbing shoulder wasn’t so damned bad after all.
*** Update ***
PS- I blame Rahm.
Skepticat
I’ve been thinking of trying to score a percocet prescription to help ease the pain caused by the political world. Or caused by my slamming my head against the desk anyway,
John Quixote
I am waiting for the GOP led Congress in 2013 defaulting on our national debt by refusing to raise the debt level, on orders from President Palin. That’s going to be one wild ride.
Alice B. Stuck
The public will get interested when they see Glenn Beck bite off the head of a chicken this fall, they will get interested and demand a weekly series prime time as a sitcom. We are fucked and the SCOTUS fucked us with a billion dildos more.
I agree, not worth caring about following politics when the time could be used more wisely digging fortified bunkers for the coming Palin Administration in 2013.
Follow the White Wabbit.
asiangrrlMN
I agree, Cole. There are people who want to remain willfully ignorant, and there are people who are, quite frankly, not very smart. It’s frustrating beyond belief to have a conversation with someone who believes the crap the rightwing shovels out on a daily basis. I was at a party Saturday night that was filled with mostly very progressive liberals, and I kept thinking, why aren’t more people this intelligent, thoughtful, and creative?
As one of them pointed out, all the arguments on the right side are so slippery anyway. Take healthcare. If someone starts bleating about death panels and you explain that there are no death panels, the person slides over to how a public option is sockulism. Then, if you point out that so is Medicare and SS, they slide over to, ‘Everyone has healthcare! They can go to the emergency room!’
I have finally realized that there simply is no swaying some people. They need to be left strictly alone to molder and die.
Scott
I’ve pretty much decided there’s no way to change the discourse. The GOP won’t talk honestly because they’ve embraced dishonesty as a moral good. The media is largely owned by the GOP — we won’t be able to get them to discuss anything seriously without junking the whole damn thing, stuffing the national pundits/reporters/editors/publishers into bathyspheres, and dropping them into the Marianas Trench.
You could get a genuine angry, torch-and-pitchfork mob outside the news networks, and they’d insist they were American Idol fans clear up ’til they strapped ’em onto the guillotine.
cmorenc
The modern media wants foremost a dogfight, a horse race, a drama with fireworks and spectacle, to draw readership or viewers. In their view, it’s hard enough to regularly attract a large enough share of readers/viewers to attract the advertising/subscription revenue that supports them (ditto for the talking heads competing for media personality share). In their view, too few people have the interest or attention span to sit still for the lengthy, hard work of accurate factual and policy analysis – now there are significantly more people than they think like this, but the media folks aren’t all that wrong in that there are still way too few. All you need do is compare the regular viewership of “Dancing With the Stars” and “American Idol” vs “PBS News Hour”…I’m not even sure Glenn Beck for all his notoriety, can compare remotely the same category as “Idol” in its heyday.
Unfortunately, at the top of media corporations nowdays are the beancounters and entertainment production types, not the types of yesteryear when there were three principal networks and accurate, objective news coverage was viewed as a public service obligation (it’s hard to remember, but the national news programs with Cronkite etc. we now idolize as a “golden age” only got 15min per day until well into the 1960s.) Point is, they did their job, but there wasn’t as much of it in absolute or relative terms nearly as there is today. The media world is far more balkanized now, with more and more people only tuning into news media filtering events in ways that confirm their preconceptions.
Don’t expect that to change soon.
Alice B. Stuck
Hey now, don’t stir no shit. K
Woodbuster
I am not nearly as optimistic as I was this time last year, but I am going to enjoy the next 3 years of Obama’s Presidency, before President Thune starts his 8 years of idiocy. Maybe by the time he gets up a full head of stupid, I will have enough to escape to the coasts of Costa Rica.
Fucking Democrat cowards…..
maye
I know I’ve sounded like a broken record on this subject, but the White House communications shop did not even try to beat back the propaganda last August. You have to at least try. You have to think and act like they do. You have to come up with methods of brainwashing people with the truth. Then you have to implement your plan. Managing the media is part of governing. So far, the Dems in power (President and Congress) get a grade of “F” in this subject.
Elie
What drives me crazy is that we could overcome this if people just cared enough about themselves…
This craziness goes all the way down to the locals around here who get pantsed over and over by the wingnuts..
We need to start at the grassroots, not at the high levels of leadership…we need true community organizing and that is not happening so we have no foundation in the public to shift the craziness based on fear and tribalism. This is the deepest cancer rooted in profound ignorance and now generations of anti government propaganda. You even hear some of the same crap from some of the left who should know better…
No cheap easy way to avoid the grassroots change that is needed. About time we faced that and figure out what its going to take. Everything else is trying to plant in toxic soil — you can put the plants in but nothing will “take” and nothing will grow. A short time later you have dead plants and nothing else has changed. That is where we are and the progressives had better take stock.
Dork
Would NEVER work.
People watch TV news NOT to get information to make a opinion, but to reinforce their opinion already formed. Have this debate on Fox, and libtards wail. Have it on NBC/MSNBC and the righties wail “librul mediums!” Have it on CNN and both sides trash it.
right now, there’s not a single medium form (TV, radio, newspaper, etc) trusted by both sides. Which, when you think about it, is freakin amazing.
cmorenc
@Scott:
I don’t think this is actually true (except in the case of Fox) Instead, what’s happening is that the basic dynamic of what drives media interest (news version of dramatic entertainment) is simply much more compatible with the GOP’s modus operendai – which is to push conflict and hot-button base emotions. The media is looking for drama and conflict, horse races and news version of sports contests to cover, NOT accurate factual reporting or policy analysis, except as a sugarcoating to the drama, because THAT is what draws viewership, which draws advertising revenue in their view. The GOP has no scruples about taking advantage of the short, distracted attention span of most people, knowing that by the time truth catches up to their lies, they can spin seven more and even repeat the original lie rephrased a bit, because by then people will have forgotten what the original question or falsehood was. The democrats tend to push things that take a bit of patient thought, reading, and experience to see the practicality and validity thereof, health care reform being the most spectacular example.
Houstonian
@maye:
This.
Your product may be great, but if you don’t tell people about it in a way that makes them interested and wanting to buy it, it’s just going to sit on a shelf and go nowhere. The WH failed miserably to communicate what they were doing, especially on health care.
It has looked a bit better in the past week. Could the return of Plouffe have anything to do with that? They were not bad at message stuff during the campaign.
Alex S.
Hmm, 2 solutions:
1. Let the republicans take over until the country collapses (a new Great Depression)
2. Canada.
blondie
The so-called “town halls” weren’t even close to what Obama did with the Republican idiots on Friday. We have to remember, most members of Congress are at most one grade level above the majority of their constituents – they can’t dismantle opponents’ arguments at all, let alone with the humor and grace the President offered. And Obama can’t have hundreds of town halls all over the country, to point out the idiocies the Rs offer.
The next thing I want to see is Obama schooling his Dem congressmen the way he did the Republicans. That might stiffen their spines. And/or I’d like to see him come down on them hard for being such idiots themselves.
And your P.S. was right on point – fire the fucker, please!!
demo woman
@maye: Your right that the President is the only one who can command TV coverage. Unfortunately the liberal media thinks they are fair and balanced if they have on Lieberman, Bayh and Nelson.
Some one earlier mentioned Ezra Klein’s column about Paul Ryan’s plan. It’s a must read.
The American people are use to sound bites and that is what wins. When I had whackos preach the emergency room as a form of health care, I mentioned that I was tired of paying 1200 more a year in insurance costs to fund that type of reform.
Apsaras
Like it or not, what we have these days is a purely a la carte media, where everyone gets to choose the newspaper, blog, radio programme, and cable news network that best reinforces their prejudices. That way, we can avoid any news that might cause us the discomfort of rethinking our positions.
I’d also like to point out that this country doesn’t seem to enjoy lectures very much. Those are for pointy-headed intellectualist types, not for hard-nosed realists like most Americans tell themselves they are. The very idea that any of us should sit down and listen to someone with some actual experience and wisdom about a subject offends us. Why’s he so special?! What about my say! First Amendment! I have opinions! Must… post… another….comment…..!
taylormattd
@maye: This is just a load of crap. An utter load of crap.
The white house, OFA, and many other organizations *were* “out there” all the time. You have to realize, it just doesn’t matter at all. Not at all. The media is completely and utterly dominated by wingnuts, wingut-apologists, and agnositics who are frightened of winguts.
Until there is an effort by progressives, progressive organizations, and democratic politicians to go after the media hard, nothing will change.
CJ
@Alex S.:
I find myself coming to this conclusion about once a week now.
Eric S.
@Woodbuster:
Ah, to dream. I visited that beautiful country last spring for the first time. I plan to return this year and have had a serious conversation with my boss about working remotely.
Alice B. Stuck
@taylormattd: Pony killer.
BTW I think burnt Orange would make a fancy new color for BJ.
maye
@Houstonian:
They are using Obama better, but Obama can’t do it alone. Even Kobe Bryant can’t win with a shitty team backing him up.
Last summer they should have had a PR and ad blitz ready to go to saturate all media with the real stories of people suffering from the current healthcare system.
asiangrrlMN
Ok, I get the message thing, but are we as a society really at a place where if it’s not a thirty-second sound bite wrapped in bacon, deep-fried in a vat of chocolate, and hand-fed to us, we won’t take in the message?
In addition, the media is going to promote certain memes. After Obama’s take-down of the Republicans, the headline on Yahoo! was, “Obama and Republicans trade barbs.” Fuck no. Obama thoroughly dressed down the Republicans, but you wouldn’t know it by the reporting. When Rep. Grayson went ballistic, there were cries that he went too far and was out of line.
I want my president to fucking get things done. I want Congress to shape the fuck up. I don’t give a shit about the message. And, yeah, I know that I’m probably an outlier in that matter, which just leaves me more disgusted.
@taylormattd: Thank you. I like the way you put it better. Obama et al can only do so much.
maye
@taylormattd:
I’m saying you try to beat them with their own game.
dan
@Houstonian: I also complete agree.
How can we say it would make no difference when the democrats confronted a well-coordinated — albeit insane — opposition strategy with Baucus and Nelson meeting behind closed doors?
You cannot point to a single effort by the democrats in the past year to engage in a sustained argument for HCR or any other legislation. You simply cannot.
Rather, you assume in advance that a strategy never tried can never work. And your evidence is the traction the tea-baggers have gotten. That is a non sequitur.
jl
Another problem is that, while an hour of Obama talking will make Chris Matthes forget that the President is ‘black’, an hour of Congresscrooks talking will not make most people forget that a critical mass of the membership of Congress, especially the Senate, are contemptible sociopathic jerks.
Zach
I wrote a too-long comment summarizing points contra Hensarling on a True/Slant post that thought Hensarling like totally destroyed Obama with his shitty math. The key points:
The funny thing is that, even using Hensarling’s math, he’s wrong. $1.1 trillion divided by $0.104 trillion is less than 12.
But, yeah, facts don’t matter.
cmorenc
@Apsaras
“Hard-headed realist” is more often than not a self-flattering way of reframing “too distracted and lazy to learn more about issues than the opinions I pull off the top of my head by way of my ass”. This type of “realist” is informed only by what someone’s spoon-fed by the MSM the 15 minutes or so each day they’re even mildly paying attention, and reinforced by talking with other people simply pulling opinions out of their own ass rather than being fact-based.
Sarah Palin is prime member of this species of “hard-headed realist” – distinguished by how unusually exposed the underlying ignorance and stupidity is behind the supped “realism” in her case, and also the “hard-headedness” of a mind not being open to (or capable of grasping) actual facts.
flounder
The only way you can counter this stuff is to let the wingnuts get so full of themselves that they start believing their own hype (and more importantly start thinking everyone else believes it) and overreach. Let them do the hard work.
We started seeing that yesterday, with Paul Ryan and Jeb Hensarling proposing that we privatize Social Security and Medicare. They got so pumped that people were believing their hype they let their true colors slip. Remember that is what knocked the Bush support from 40% or so to less than 30%.
Teabaggers average about 80 years of age and as evidenced by the Republican flip-flops on Medicare, are very protective of their Socialisms.
Every time Obama opens his mouth, from now to the election, he should congratulate Rep. Ryan for being a real man and producing a real budget with real numbers, even if it does get rid of Social Security and Medicare and create insurance-run “death panels”.
As Tim F. says, other Republicans should be made to say whether they support the Republican budget or the Democratic one.
And it would be nice if Democrats start a clarion call for Republicans to offer up a financial regulation proposal as well. And maybe a proposal on how they would regulate the safety of Chinese toys. And so on.
flounder
Why the moderation?
Violet
The media is sad and pathetic. It is little wonder they are imploding.
jeffreyw
@asiangrrlMN:
Do not click this link, you have been warned.
Ash Can
Actually, I think that, if done right, it would make a difference. By virtue of the fact that enough low-info voters decided to take a flyer on the dark-skinned guy a year and three months ago, I think it’s possible that at least some of the great unwashed could be persuaded to see the facts if they’re presented in an attractive manner (even if those facts aren’t all that attractive themselves). What the Dems need to do is to make the truth sexy, whether figuratively or literally, because sex sells, whether figurative or literal.
Unfortunately (in this case), as you mentioned in a previous post, the Dems tend to be more focused on that which drives the message, rather than the message itself. David Plouffe helped run a smooth and shiny election campaign, and it’s probably no coincidence that the quality of the WH PR has been stepped up since he came back on board. But I doubt he could make the Democratic message either coherent or attractive single-handedly, let alone overnight.
The corporate media bosses may be Republicans, but the on-the-ground reporters, from the big names on down, are basically like schools of fish — dangle shiny things in front of them and they’ll bite. All the Dems need to do is to put a tackle box together for themselves and oil up the reel. Whether or not they’ll ever actually do that, however, isn’t something I’d want to bet anything of value on, sadly.
flukebucket
That is called making progress my friend. Just keep pointing and laughing and let the chips fall where they may.
Michael
Kos is a douche of the first order, but he commissioned a poll.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/2/2/832988/-The-2010-Comprehensive-Daily-Kos-Research-2000-Poll-of-Self-Identified-Republicans
As I read it, the GOP has gone Galt, leaving the legislating to whatever vote the Democrats can cobble from the wreckage. They seem to believe (stupidly) that this will lead to a Phoenix-like rise from the ashes, and that the gridlock won’t cause complete collapse.
I’m finding myself bemused over pensioners and SS recipients on Medicare getting their just desserts when they screw up to such a point where they’re not getting their White-Entitled stipends anymore.
It’ll be a big-assed “oopsie”.
I think I enjoy, even more, the thought of our incompetent, spoiled, whiny assed titty baby military going without paychecks.
With luck, when I finally croak in the chaos and mayhem, I’ll take out a lot of conservatives with me….
Elie
@Houstonian:
I don’t disagree that they WH could have been more effective in its messaging, but if we don’t get true grassroots change, there is nothing that they will be able to do. To keep blaming this up at that level and not start working on the citizen level to get the information and attitude change necessary, is a study in futility. The Republicans have the nonstop media propaganda to inject ongoing messages day and night and millions of ignorant, distracted citizens.
We Progressives need to be at the community level figuring out how to bring services and voice to the people and not waiting for a single Messianic figure to magically bring us change. We are lazy and unable to grasp the scale of the work we need to do and unless we do, we will not get what we know is the best for this country.
I have got to rethink what I am doing and try something else. Banging the key boards and bitching about what Obama could not do is leading to failure all around. Obama will be long gone and we will still be bitching and not doing much else… a recipe for more of the same. This is why the Democrats run. They know we don’t have their backs and that the people down at the roots aren’t getting it — we did not complete the change down at that level as demonstrated in Massachusetts …and they won’t fight for themselves. I truly at this point wonder if blogging isnt actually hurting us. People think we can type in change and that our reps will listen to that. They will not — indeed cannot because we aren’t backing it up with boots on the ground change
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
The public would only be interested if it was done like an American Idol contest. It would have to be done in a way that makes it a sort of popularity contest with lots of corporate sponsors. Of course, two of those sponsors would have to be Wal Mart and Brawndo.
Just Some Fuckhead
Ho ho. That one never gets old.
Napoleon
@flounder:
Also during some of the votes over the last 6 months I recall that the Republicans offered some kind of alternative plan to something that included eliminating Medicare that Pelosi let come to a vote. Every Rep voted for it. If the Dems do not blanket the appropriate House districts and Senate races with ads this fall on the subject they are morons.
Mouse Tolliver
You can’t argue with someone who speaks Authentic Frontier Gibberish. Mel Brooks portrayal of the town hall meeting from Blazing Saddles… It’s funny because it’s true.
dan
@taylormattd: I’m sorry, but I missed this.
You had high level conservatives, both publicly elected and not, beating their talking points to death and making headway. Death panels. Socialization. Etc.
What was the democratic counterpoint? What was the coordinated effort?
There wasn’t one, because the democrats had to sit on their hands and wait for the centrists to agree to something, anything, that could pass. No one could make a definitive counterargument because the democrats were completely fragmented on the issue. None of them knew — and none of them know now — what their party stood for on HCR.
And these complaints about new reporting are absurd. The most respected news program on TV is the PBS News Hour. What is there theory of news? It is news because decision makers say it. It is not news because it is “true.” Death panels make it onto the broadcast because powerful people are saying the words “death panels.” That it. The media has never been a truthfinder, and certainly isn’t now.
The Pale Scot
” Iâm thinking maybe being in a percocet haze with a throbbing shoulder wasnât so damned bad after all.”
Yea, as I get older I’m getting the notion that going sober wasn’t a good idea, I wish I could reminisce over the eighties, but I can’t remember a damn thing
Sentient Puddle
@Michael: He made a bunch of tweets about that poll yesterday as a sort of preview. Made me really curious…and of course, the bastard made me wait until today.
But boy oh boy, this should be fun to dive into!
Violet
@asiangrrlMN:
Yes.
SATSQ.
Okay, maybe everyone isn’t that bad, but people are busy and soundbites are essential because they work. They stick. Even ones that are untrue. So Dems should have easy and TRUE soundbites to counter any argument the Republicans can make.
Plus this kind of thing: @maye:
They need a smart, coordinated messaging system. It’s pretty obvious that it barely matters if it’s true, from what Republicans have shown. What matters is it’s short, memorable, and easy to repeat.
The Republicans like to scare people and that’s part of what works for them. So adopt some of their scare tactics where applicable. Grayson’s “Republicans want you dead” comes to mind as a somewhat effective technique. Put the Republicans on the back foot and make them say why the don’t want you dead (or whatever issue it is they have to defend).
This isn’t that hard. The Dems suck at it though.
DonkeyKong
Oh C’mon Cole, was it over when the Carthaginians stoned Pearl Harbor?
The Republic of Stupidity
Perhaps you’ve merely chosen the wrong week to kick strong, highly addictive, yet ever-so-soothing painkillers…
Seriously… when the Dems cobble together a roughly TWO THOUSAND page bill in less than a year’s time and on top of that, do such a piss-poor job of presenting it to the public, I question if they ever REALLY wanted it to pass in the first place…
Uhhhhhh… have any left over… by any chance?
Just asking… for a friend, you see…
asiangrrlMN
@jeffreyw: I love you! I hate you! I love to hate you! Aaaaaargh! (Me tearing my hair out).
Just Some Fuckhead
I don’t know the answer on health care other than blow up the filibuster and pass the best bill we can with 50+1 but in the event we don’t do that, we oughta at least shoot for something popular, something a majority of Americans like and something that starts working for them immediately.
Cat
@asiangrrlMN:
When you realize this is exactly the same thing conservatives say at their dinner parties things might start become a little clearer.
If you can come to accept the fact they are also just as right as you are when you think the same thing its another step to understanding.
mcd410x
When will liberals ever return their seat backs and tray tables to their upright and locked positions?
(and why won’t espn ask david vitter if he’s wearing diapers?!? fucking liberal media)
Zach
@Violet: “Plus this kind of thing…”
They should’ve had the biggest PR blitz possible immediately after the bill was signed in both houses of Congress. They should’ve projected an aura of inevitability and not allowed the conference debate to enter into the national conversation at all. Obama & co. should’ve had multiple appearances saying “now that we have reformed health care,” and loudly denounced anyone delaying the conference report. Nelson fucked this up w/ his objectionable last-minute change, but it was still doable.
Stooleo
Mmmm food pr0n.. Heres my attempt.
Citizen_X
Well, here, in a survey of Republicans (that may have oversampled the south, but still), is some more evidence of how stark raving nutters a large portion of the country is. Apparently,
not to mention that
and
Edit: I see Michael beat me to it.
John Cole
@The Republic of Stupidity: I don’t know how anyone gets addicted to percocet. Maybe other painkillers give you a high and make you feel good, but percocets are horrible. It might be just my body chemistry, but they put me in a haze, made me feel lethargic and tired, I itched and sometimes sweat and had drymouth, was forgetful, and had no pleasant feelings associated with them at all, and I just did stupid shit while taking them- like lim into another room to do something, stand there for five minutes trying to remember, leave, and then do it again. Or doing fun stuff like putting soft soap on my toothbrush. That is win.
I quit taking them before surgery as soon as I could, and I stopped again after surgery as soon as I could. Just awful drugs.
Violet
@Zach:
Do you mean when the bill passed? And wasn’t that at Christmas? Wouldn’t it have gotten lost in the holiday shuffle? Don’t for the Christmas underwear bomber consumed most of the media space for the next several weeks.
flounder
@Napoleon It was the one described by Ryan here: http://is.gd/7yLag He was pushing his Medicare privatization plan back in April. FYI, only about 130 Republicans, or 2/3 of their caucus supported privatizing Medicare.
Martin
I gotta call bullshit on this thesis, John. Obama has picked up +6 net job approval so far (rolling average, so it probably needs another day or two) based solely on his two talks. I haven’t found any HCR specific polls since then (Aside: the DKos poll of republicans on their front page is fucking scary)
A nationally televised town hall – particularly if it’s not a bullshit media managed ‘debate’ and allows the administration time to respond would be a very good thing and wouldn’t get spammed by teabaggers, etc. simply due to the security surrounding the event. Unquestionably a good thing.
But I don’t see the need for a town hall with citizens. How about a series of town halls with their elected officials? Representatives, governors, etc. It would give these people excuses to reach out to their voters for questions to relay to the President.
Bender
So, who was the uninformed idiot who “spooked” his addle-brained audience with tales of EVIL PEDIATRICIANS yanking kid’s healthy tonsils and EVIL SURGEONS chopping off feet because Obama thought that they get $50,000 that way (he was, as anyone with a shred of intelligence could tell you, incorrect on so many levels that it makes you wonder whether Obama is truly a moron, or just so arrogant that he thought he could fool his ignorant constituency with huge, scary lies)?
If Bush had said that, you know you’d all be screaming about what a lying, hateful idiot he is, and we’d still be hearing about his idiocy on Stewart and Letterman.
Alice B. Stuck
Here is my hope for you John Cole. And I know you have been under the weather and somewhat out of touch with the goings on in politics and your blog.
I hope that if you decide to carry on with it, that in remains a beacon of rigorous honesty and clear eyed thinking that really transcends advocacy for dems and even Obama. It was why I came here and stayed. This is rare in the blogosphere and out of it as well. There are those of us that will help you with this, but you have to make the decision and not let personal feelings for anyone here, moi included, everyone but yourself, and not let any person(s) in the right or left camps to deter you from keeping your eye on the fact based ball. Good Luck sir. You will need it. Rough times ahead.
follow the White Wabbit.
The Republic of Stupidity
@John Cole:
I know… I was being a wise arse…
***hangs head in shame***
I hab a problem, don’t I?
I’ve pretty much avoided opiates my whole life. Had a wisdom tooth pulled once, did ’em for a day and then lived w/ it. Same after reconstructive knee surgery back in the early nineties. Quit taking ’em as soon as I could stand it.
One time only, I took something I had left over – had some sort of opiate derivative in it – and felt really good for a few hours… but by and large, I want nothing to do w/ ’em.
matoko_chan
I know you guys don’t like Bell Curve talk, but half the electorate is on the left side…..the conservative half.
Religious, afraid of change, afraid of the Other, highly permeable to scaremongering, demogoguery, IQ-baiting and race-baiting, anti-elitism and classism.
That is why all the ressentiment.
Conservatives don’t have the substrate to understand HCR.
Keith G
Riffing off Maye:
My refrain: Things have just not gotten bad enough to shake the fucking “What’s Wrong With Kansas” paradigm.
Lower blue collar types are led to believe that tax cuts, deregulation, and union bashing is a prime road to salvation. They swallow that shit hook, line and sinker. I guess it makes them feel better that the problems are limited and external to them.
And to shore up their notions of correctness, they get our version of bread and circuses: Cheap HDTVs from WalMart and reality TV.
A grand depbate will not change this. We are so fucked.
The Republic of Stupidity
Speaking of Republicans and media… here’s a depressing set of numbers…
Large Portion Of GOP Thinks Obama Is Racist, Socialist, Non-U.S. Citizen: Poll
Nice to see just how effective the right wing noise machine has been in educating the masses about the REALLY IMPORTANT issues of the day…
Madeline
I’ve been on TV news blackout for weeks because it occurred to me that I learn nothing from any of it and it only makes me feel angry and helpless. I came out of blackout to watch the Obama smackdown on Cpsan over the weekend. That’s when it finally hit home – for the most part, our news is nothing more than an empty vessel to fill up with ad revenue. It’s P! E! Entertainment television, with political celebrities instead of movie stars.
jeffreyw
@Stooleo: Yay! I’ve been bearing such a heavy burden, glad to have someone share the load!
cleek
it is a very short distance from here:
to here:
once you realize that arguing policy with committed partisans is like arguing evolution with committed Baptists, you start wondering why anyone bothers at all. the only reasonable thing to do is to point and laugh.
Citizen_X
@John Cole:
But I do stuff like that all the time anyway.
Soap on the toothbrush, though; I don’t go that far.
The Republic of Stupidity
Why Bender… you seem to have a hair up yer Cheney this morning…
Napoleon
@flounder:
Still, I would be willing to bet that plenty of people voted for it that could be in a world of hurt if the Dems run ads on it.
Violet
@Keith G:
Right there you disprove your argument. Why do they believe these things? Because someone told them they were true. Who told them and how? Politicians aided and abetted by the media. They hear it over and over and they believe it.
Why shouldn’t the Democrats come up with a few claims of their own and start bashing them home? Package them in soundbite form and show why tax cuts for the rich don’t work to help the little guy. Why is deregulation bad? Get a catchphrase and have every politician repeat it.
The truth is on the Dems’ side. They just have to sell it. And they haven’t.
The Republic of Stupidity
@Madeline:
And that’s why I get almost all my information from print media these days. I truly go out of my way to avoid television these days.
That way, I can control the rate of intake (and I’m a hella fast reader). I can skip over what I want, like the ads, go back and re-read what I want, and I DON’T have sound bites floating around in my head for hours afterwards.
Seriously… if your in a room w/ a teevee machine or radio on, you CANNOT prevent the sound from getting into your head. No matter how hard you try to ignore it, your ears STILL pick it up – it ends up inside your head.
Think about it and check it out. It’s true. I feel I have so much more control when I deal w/ print.
Bender
@matoko_chan:
You know, that would be slightly more compelling (still vapid, though) without “ressentiment.” Try harder to convince us how smart you think you are next time.
The Republic of Stupidity
I believe it was Robt Vigurie who originally figured out and preached to the GOP the virtues and power of controlling AM radio, back in the late 70’s/early 80’s.
He was right. A low tech solution to a lower tech problem.
jeffreyw
@John Cole:
I do that entirely unassisted by medication.
The Republic of Stupidity
@Bender:
Chill out, dude. ‘ressentiment’ is simply the French form of the word. W/ your level of education, that should have been obvious.
And who is ‘us’?
Speak for yourself.
Zach
@Violet:
Christmas Eve. And Obama could’ve said, in his Christmas address, “The holidays are a time to look back on the year and what you’ve accomplished and what challenges you’ve faced, and a time to look forward to the future. Michelle and I are proud that, today, America has revolutionized health care after a year of hard work and compromise. This means that, one year from today, thousands of American families won’t have to skip Christmas presents because of a medical bankruptcy, thousands more will be looking forward to many Christmases to come because they now receive care for preexisting conditions, and tens of millions of uninsured Americans will soon have affordable insurance.”
Republicans would’ve thrown a tizzy that Obama was politicizing Christmas. This would result in everyone hearing the most popular immediate consequences of the bill over and over until wingnut hysteria died down.
Zach
@Martin:
A speaking tour to state legislatures might be a good idea. Repeatedly engaging the same DC GOP caucus would be a very bad idea. It worked like gangbusters once, but they’ll focus group the format and figure out how to game it into a talking point fun fest when it happens again. Saying that they enjoyed the frank dialog was damage control. They’ll avoid it in the future.
kay
@Citizen_X:
I want someone to call them on that.
There were liberals who wanted to leave the country during Bush, but they weren’t arrogant and insane enough to believe they were taking their state with them.
They truly, truly have a basic problem with democracy.
Imagine sitting in your house, as an individual, and deciding secession is a rational response to losing an election?
Elie
@Violet:
What makes it hard is that on the grassroots level, the everyday, factual level, we do not have the same means to influence the electorate. The MSM has the bullhorn and our schools and other means of public education do not teach people to think but to spout “facts” they are told to memorize, or are repeated so often, they become fact — like that government does not work. I can’t tell you my surprise to hear sentiments like that dropping from the lips of some of the leftie commenters here! Along with that VERY few arguments about how we need to help the poor and weak and cover everybody. Folks in fact did not WANT to pay for everybody, just save their own asses as cheaply as possible. That to me signaled a totally distressing and catastrophic reality that unless we deal with it somehow, we cannot and will not succeed not during Obama’s tenure or any time in the foreseeable future. Fundamental change is bottoms up — not top down and we want to put icing over a very distorted and weak cake.
My question is, what can I do, and how can I do it WHERE IT MATTERS —
Violet
@Zach:
I don’t think his Christmas address would have been given much play, except for wingnuts to focus on how Obama was “getting distracted by healthcare and losing focus on keeping us safe” after undiebomber appeared. They did that anyway, but “politicizing Christmas” would have given them even more of an opening.
Heck, I didn’t even know Obama gave a Christmas address. I was kind of busy with Christmas stuff myself.
slag
Shorter John Cole: “I believe in nothing, Lebowski. Nothing.”
I think it may be time for a “We’re all nihilists now” tag.
Toni
I wonder how many days does Obama wake up and wonder what’s the point of having 59 caucus members (60 till next week) in the Senate? Yes the republicans are idiots and obstructionists but if the Dems were together, they would get a lot done. On every issue so far, healthcare, energy, financial reform, jobs, it is the dems who are standing in his way. His nominees that couldn’t get confirmed, same reason. Just yesterday I saw a story about Baucus now wanting to markup the jobs bill, even though it had been worked on for months by others, which is just going to slow down the vote.
Obama has been shielding the Dems in the Senate by not forcing them to vote on nominees or on bills that have passed the house. If he does it will hurt the Dems even further because it will show them to be just as hypocritical as republicans. For example, there is a student loan bill that will stop the government guaranteeing loans that private lenders give to students. The government will just deal directly with the students. They did a study showing it would save billions which can be used to give more loans. It passed the house, but hasn’t been brought up for a vote in the Senate even when they had 60 votes because there are Dems against it. Dems always run on improving access to college education but if they have a way to do it that’s not going to hurt the middle class, it’s not even a tax increase, and they still won’t take it, its almost better to have republicans because at least they never pretend to care about access to college education.
I’m not advocating for more republicans but I see so clearly why Obama like Clinton might end up having to work with the other party controlling congress. Dems almost seem to work best with a republican WH. The centrists can work with the republicans to pass bills/give cloture, the progressives can complain and the base is continuously fired up to give money. Tranquility under the democratic big tent as it and the rest of the country go off the cliff.
Madeline
@The Republic of Stupidity: Oh I agree. But we’re still stuck with the millions of people who watch and listen to this drivel without questioning it. And sadly, I think it is wishful thinking to imagine that they will change anytime soon.
Elie
@kay:
Part two of the Civil War. Who knew?
Cat
@matoko_chan:
lulz, 75% of the population is less then one std deviation from average less and one std deviation above average isn’t terribly bright either.
liberals and conservatives have just as many uneducated and intellectually incurious members as each other. Just because they agree with your ideology that you ‘reasoned out for yourself’ doesn’t mean they aren’t just blindly following some liberal authority figure just like the conservatives.
change we can believe in, my ass
@maye:
That is absolutely right. Obama HAS TO TRY. So far he’s shown us that he’s just not interested.
He and his team were geniuses at campaigning. They know how to move public opinion. Selling HRC is no different; they could do it.
We’ve seen him try very hard, and act quite decisively, to give the financial sector what it wants, most recently Bernanke.
If the bankers need it, they get it.
When it’s jobless, homeless Americans, those without health care,he’s just not all that interested.
Zach
@Violet: Yes, Captain Underpants is a mitigating factor.
The plus side of that whole thing was that a bunch of green journalists got a day by themselves to run their respective television networks since the main folks all take vacation assuming no one’s watching the news.
Michael
Sweet baby Jesus and the Troops, this is some stuff that can be used as a hammer come fall:
******************
Should public school students be taught that the book of Genesis in the Bible explains how God created the world?
Yes 77
No 15
Not Sure 8
Should contraceptive use be outlawed?
Yes 31
No 56
Not Sure 13
Do you believe the birth control pill is abortion?
Yes 34
No 48
Not Sure 18
**********************************
Significant weirdness out there – too much to be statistically ignored.
Kinda puts the lie to the whole “we’re into freedom” schtick that the GOP pretends.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
Thing is, Obama is rather a unique individual in his power to persuade. Those who complain that he isn’t “leading” or whatever would like to see more of that Obama on TV every day, not the guy sending Geithner and Orszag out there to spout lame talking points in High Nerd. Christ, every time I see either of these twerps on the tube my mind’s eye sees a counter in the other corner of the screen, reeling off all the voters switching to Republican.
We’ve all seen that a portion of “independents” can be persuaded to vote for a black guy named Hussein, so there’s some potential for persuasion. There needs to be a genuine push for HCR and financial reform in the coming months with Obama’s mug front and center, and if he can’t get them pushed through the Washington miasma, oh well, at least he tried.
NR
@Toni:
Yep. The past several years have shown us that the right always wins, no matter which party is in power.
It’s no wonder the Democratic base is so apathetic right now.
The Pale Scot
John, having had more than my share of spectacular accidents, I can tell you from experience. Percoset is a combination of tylenol and oxycodone. It’s the high dosage of tylenol that’s unpleasant, especially if the dosage is 5mg/500mg. Get a different perscription; avoid the tylenol and replace it with ibuprofen. You need an anti-inflammatory to compliment your ice harness. There is a combination pill, or more effective would be celebrex and 5mg pills of oxycodone, which is a tiny amount, doing the Limbaugh requires much bigger dosages, the pill sizes go up to +160mg.
Just ditch the tylenol, I think it’s useless for serious injuries, it’s just used to dilute the oxycodone and made my hyper-sensitive to my body state. “itching”.
kay
@Elie:
Oh, just go, I say. We’ll muddle along fine without them.
That new country is going to be horrible anyway. Riven with religious factions, no one wants to pay for anything. We’ll loop the interstate around that smoking wreck.
slag
@Cat:
This made me laugh out loud. Thank you, David Broder.
The Republic of Stupidity
@Madeline:
Oh… I agree, fer sure…
That was simply my solution to the problem.
I have spent large parts of my adult life trying to figure out how to get people to THINK… and it has been a MADDENING, FRUSTRATING experience… but try, we must.
Violet
@Elie:
Yes, but they are very distractable by shiny objects. The Dems should give them a shiny object (pithy soundbite/scary soundbite) every day. It should be coordinated with other appearances and talking points so the public hears it/believes it over time.
Fixing the schools is a long term problem. Short term you gotta work with what you have. If this is how people operate it, then work with it. Don’t just hope they’ll change. Or don’t walk away because “people aren’t thinking.” That doesn’t help get you any further down the road either.
I don’t think it’s that people don’t want to help the poor and weak, but that they aren’t convinced the government should be the one to do it. It sounds like soshulism and people have been conditioned to think soshulism is bad (see above). Framing the argument in a way that shows how you and your family can be helped is going to have much more success. Then show how including everyone makes it cheaper and protects against you losing your health care when you most need it. Then you get the result you want, but don’t have to change everyone’s mind first.
I don’t think people don’t want to help people. But it’s not going to work to say we should do it because it’s right. Everyone knows healthcare is way expensive. So if we cover everyone then how much is it going to cost? You have to address that in the argument and get that issue out of the way.
Definitely bottom up change is essential. But top down has it’s place – like Social Security or desegregating the military. But that doesn’t mean they can’t happen concurrently. Getting discouraged isn’t going to help either.
Edit – Dang it! I forgot and used the dreaded soshulism word and went into moderation.
kay
@Michael:
Should contraceptive use be outlawed?
Yes 31
No 56
Not Sure 13
I keep telling people this. No one listens. That’s the end game. There ain’t no way to get from where they are to where they want to go without running right up against that.
They’re not big on compromise.
I love the “not sure” people, by the way. How much longer do we think they might need before they decide? “Time’s up!”
Sentient Puddle
@Cat:
A false equivalence worthy of the goat fuckery on CNN.
I would also like to thank @slag for reminding me that this isn’t the first time you’ve done it this thread.
Cat
@slag:
Its very likely everyone at both those different cocktail parties are of average intelligence and merely think they are informed, intelligent, and creative people.
The Pale Scot
Was my last comment objectionable in some way???
Nick
@maye:
My grandfather once said to me “you can’t win unless you try, but should you lose, people will always say it’s because you didn’t try hard enough”
How many press conferences did the President give? So many the networks decided to stop airing them because they were interrupting reruns of “So You Think You Can Dance.” So many that reporters had to change the subject to a stupid racial incident in Massachusetts. Remember Skip Gates? How many town halls did the President do? A bunch…remember Montana?
In the end they did try, but failed.
Andy K
@The Republic of Stupidity:
Well, seeing that the 300+ pages of the Patriot Act were passed about 5 minutes after being introduced, HCR should have taken about an hour.
Michael
The ugly part is that somewhere along the way, middle of the road, mainline GOPers who may not buy into the social conservatism have become convinced that they HAVE to give in to the nutcases to expect their continued support, lest the Democrats come in and raise taxes and install bureaucrats on every street corner.
As a result, rather than having a polity that resembles the UK, we have a disfunctional cluster fuck with a substantial minority of folks who view going Galt (with all the fucking laziness, cynicism and psychosis that ensues) as a legitimate political solution.
I live in one CD and work in another. The one where I live is represented by a teabagging fruitcake. The one I work in is now represented by a very sane, tilted-toward-progressive Dem. Unfortunately, a financial advisor that I have known and who has been a friend and client for 25 years is running against him. My friend has gone full metal teabagger, and is supported by some big money assholes of the type that the world would be better off without. Also, my friend has absolutely zero business whatsoever being in Congress due to a personal life history with lots and lots of skeletons.
Sad thing is, he may win in this environment, which would be a disaster, as he’s a complete idiot.
The Pale Scot
Well;
John, it’s the tylenol in the percosets that are making you uncomfortable. Try getting another script with a oxycodone/ibuprofen mix instead, you need an anti-inflammatory to assist the ice harness.
Celebrex and 5mg oxycodone is better. Percoset is oxycodone and tylenol, but I think tylenol is useless for serious injuries. It just makes me more aware of my body state “itching”
Cat
@Sentient Puddle:
lol, like saying the GOP is full of mouth breathing smacktards is a nice progressive meme.
They are just the same kind of people the Dems have as their constituents when the real problem is the people they are following.
You just come off as a elitist bemoaning how the proles don’t know whats best for them and only your side has the smart ones even though in reality its made up of the same types of people.
Really, the hypocrisy is staggering.
gex
If the media is going to go ahead and just give “equal time” to the right, why not insist that the fairness doctrine apply equally? Because that’s what that was. Of course, IOKIYAR, so nevermind.
slag
@Cat: Your insinuation that liberals and conservatives don’t have very different value systems is staggering. There’s a reason Democratic presidents look and sound very different from Republican presidents. Democrats, by and large, value nuance and detail. Republicans, by and large, value authority and “common sense”. Those may be stereotypes, but they exist for a reason. So, to assert that conservatives run around touting their intelligence and creativity is stupid. More likely, they run around touting their morality and their “common sense”.
To not see a difference is to willfully not see a difference. Really, the stupidity is staggering.
matoko_chan
@Cat: well….I haz data.
Check out Murray here.
Now consider the negative correlation of religiousity and IQ, documented by Lynn et al.
Aren’t conservatives more strongly religious than liberals?
The base of the republican party is nearly pure WEC/Mormen at this point.
This is interesting.
Hmmm….supernatural thinking? Like, creationism should be taught in schools?
henqiguai
@maye (#24):
Um, no. That then makes you no better than them. Should African-Americans (and Latinos/Latinas and Asians of all origins and LTGBs and …) push back against their detractors and assailants with the same tactics ? While the early Malcolm X was thrilling, the latter was much more effective.
A tad hyperbolic ? Yes, but I find the whole fight-fire-with-fire meme in the political and policy arena entirely too simplistic.
Elie
@Violet:
I was sloppy in my comment. What I needed to say was the “poor and the weak” are going to be all of us if health care costs keep going up while our standard of living, real wages etc keep going down. Like it or not, we help ourselves by helping others. You were right about packaging the message, but the underlying reality is the absolute necessity of socialistic adaptation if we are to survive.
And I am not giving up at all. Just asking us what we are spending our time on and questioning how much can be accomplished from the fifth row in the bleacher seats rather than on the actual field of play — politics brought into small ball on our local level…running good folks for school boards, showing up to the jokers at public hearings in local government issues. Talking forthrightly to people about things that matter rather than keeping quiet out of politeness… that sort of thing. I am knee deep in our frequently frustrating local politics
gex
Sometimes this is the only way I can stay sane or stop myself from burning shit down.
I don’t have children, I don’t plan on having children. I am currently a middle class “winner” in our society, and so long as we can stagger along for another 30 or 40 years, the failure of the public and the government to act like adults is not my problem. I remind myself that the people most likely to advocate for ruinous policy are also the people who tend to start families young and have big families to boot.
Nearly every liberal policy I support would have little benefit to me (except SSM) but would be good for society at large. If society at large wants to give me tax cuts instead, so be it.
matoko_chan
@Cat:
False again, Cat.
Conservatives are uniformly white, religious, and older as a demographic. They uniformly fear change, and seek to maintain the status quo. They harbor supernatural beliefs like supply-side economics and The Virgin Birth and that dinosaurs and homo sap. coexisted.
And conservatives could have maintained an electoral majority forevah….except….they are racists. So black and brown voters with natural conservative tendendancies run from them like scalded cats.
Sentient Puddle
@Cat: Y’know, I always hate having to say this because it implies a certain level of failure on my part, but in this instance, I’m 100% sure that that isn’t the case, so here goes: You should actually read what I wrote.
You speak like you assume anyone replying to you is merely throwing a bomb at the GOP. And yes, I realize that in many instances, distilling something down to a core point like that is useful so that you don’t have to waste time reading through a wall of text, but you can’t do that here. Because it is factually wrong.
matoko_chan
@Cat:
Which is actually true.
6% of scientists are republicans. 30% of post-baccs are republicans.
Not only does our side “have the smart ones”, but we have taken out an option on all the future smart ones.
Because academe is painted blue.
Who teaches in unis? Teaching research scientists, post-baccs, and Murray’s intellectual uppers, who he correctly identifies as extreme liberal.
hmmm
Who are the culture producers? ^^ look up
Who are the culture consumers?
Everbody else.
That is why conservatives bitch about hollywood, academe, and media…..the culture producers are extreme liberals.
lawl
matoko_chan
lawl
See Cat?
quod erat demonstrandum
Elie
@gex:
I don’t think that you fully mean that. ( that the tax cut would provide similar satisfaction if that is the only thing that can pass). There are externalities to a “liberal” culture that is more than the sum of its parts. Liberal culture is freedom to individual ideas and action and citizen beliefs that naturally opposes the group think of autocracy. We cannot afford to take our eye off of the ball in this country anymore or we would wake up in a police state, snap, just like that. So while I hear your point, that you will be ok financially so it doesnt matter really what happens in your lifetime, I truly would argue that you are not really thinking about it deeply enough. I know however, that you were just making a point…
Cat
@slag:
We werent talking values, reread the posts. We were talking self perceptions compared to reality. We were talking about their functional intellegence.
You read into it what you wanted, poor reading skills or whetever. You missed the point completely.
I’m under no illusion that democrats and republicans believe the same things. The only belief they share is that the other side is stupid and wrong.
Chad N Freude
@kay: Enthusiastic agreement here. And they’ll get along just fine without federal government project funding and federal government contracts.
matoko_chan
@Cat:
But…..conservative beliefs ARE correlated with lower IQ strata, and I gave cites above.
So the liberal belief that conservatives are stupid is actually scientifically verifiable and also quite true.
:)
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
Or race and IQ. Where exactly are you going with this?
I don’t know what Cat’s point is exactly so I won’t try to distill it. I don’t think you’re contending that intelligent or persuadable conservatives literally don’t exist, are you? Michael Shermer describes himself as a “fiscal conservative”, how do you deal with people like that?
matoko_chan
And conservatives know they are stupid. See, ressentiment. That is why crits of Palin whip them into a frenzy.
lawl.
Cat
@matoko_chan:
/facepalm
Saying someone scored 2 points more means they are roughly the same intelligence. The same is true for a 6 point difference. There is no real functional difference between someone with an IQ score 96 and 102 they are both of average intelligence.
There needs to be a 15 point, the typical standard deviation for IQ test, to show any marked increase in intelligence.
The fact its less then half a standard deviation between the ‘persuasions’ shows there is no actual deviation.
matoko_chan
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.): i am not saying anything about race and IQ, which I believe has insufficient and contradictory data to draw conclusions.
However, religiousity and IQ ARE negatively correlated, and there has been vast quantities of research and multiple books proving this in world sampling.
Read the paper i cited.
AND conservatives are nearly wholly religious.
No one denies that……do you deny that?
Dogmatic and supernatural beliefs like having creationism taught in science class correllate with lower IQs.
Thats a fact, jack.
Cat
@matoko_chan: @matoko_chan:
Let me distill it down for you. You are to stupid to understand how to interpenetrate the results from an IQ test.
The individual numbers mean nothing. They are there to guide you to the IQ Chart where you look up your score to see which ‘bucket’ you fall into.
There is no bucket where a 6 point difference makes a difference into what bucket you end up in.
matoko_chan
@Cat: lawl that is a ridikkulous objection to a peer reviewed paper with excellent statistics.
The researchers aren’t administering Stanford Binet, but using MDS (multidimensional scaling) to investigate separation in religiosity, IQ and SES (Socio-economic status) in white american adolescents. Your comment makes no sense.
address my other data points please, since you are incapable of reading that paper…….oh…….are you a conservative?
Perhaps you don’t have the substrate.
:)
slag
@Cat: Are you frakkin kidding me with this? My “poor reading skills” or whatever? asiangrrlmn said this:
You said this:
I said this:
I’m right. And you have “poor reading skills” or whatever.
Also…to be fair to liberals, we not only think conservatives are stupid and wrong. We think other liberals are stupid and wrong too. Which is what you and I think about each other.
matoko_chan
@slag:
truedat.
Conservatives despise “intellectuals” and “elites”. Notice conservatives stopped touting Thomas Jefferson when they realized that he would have voted for Obama as an avatar (lol) of the natural aristoi, and decried the talentless, virtueless Palin as a demogogue.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
You are talking about IQ correlations. Again, to what end?
IQ is a test score. Identifiable groups have higher/lower average scores. That’s simply the case.
Right, just as with race. So your point is what?
I just want to know where you’re going with your correlations. What’s your point? What do you think of Michael Shermer?
matoko_chan
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.): correlation between religiousity and low IQ is not causation.
However, we CAN say that nearly all conservatives express religiousity, so our hypothesis is that they have lower IQ than irreligious people, or people who are religious without being dogmatic (religiousity)…which is the liberal half of the curve of political affliliation….and individuals like Micheal Schermer can certainly be in MENSA……im talkin Law of Large Numbers and the base, lol…and I have no personal opinion of him.
I presume you are referring to Sailer’s Folly. No real theoretical population geneticist gives any credibility to that. For one thing….nearly all black americans are some percent genetically white.
Unless you are going to measure that percentage with DNA testing for every sample individual you have no data, and no conclusion.
slag
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.): Just to point out there is a distinct difference between religiosity and race. Religiosity is a belief system. Race (while technically nonexistent) is considered an inherited attribute. Religiosity and IQ would more likely have a connection since they are both in the mind.
And technically, since race is in the mind, you may have a point but not necessarily the one you think you have–see “stereotype threat”. You could argue that religious people are also vulnerable to stereotype threat, but you’d have a harder hill to climb with that one.
That said, I don’t believe IQ to be a reflection of inherent intelligence.
PS All this is predicated on the notion that there are coincidences. You could say that people with big teeth also have bigger IQs, and that’s not going to be mean anything to anyone unless you can somehow show you have a reason for making the connection.
latts
Count me as someone who thinks the debate over intelligence & political leanings is mostly meaningless. There are smart conservatives, of course, although probably not very many real intellectuals (and I won’t comment on their overall character), and there are certainly hyper-emotional, muddled liberals as well. However, I’d personally (and subjectively, based on years of enduring Southern culture) posit that while Democratic voters are not necessarily brighter on average than Republican voters, there’s likely much more of a gap between the politically active members of the parties. IOW, less-bright Democrats only get involved sporadically & aren’t even that reliable as voters, while Republican boneheads are in an endless political frenzy, carefully engineered by more clever (if soulless) operatives. Everything from signage at demonstrations to the relative integrity of their policy papers certainly makes Republicans seem dumber, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that (for example) Mrs. Joe SUVmommy who votes for Republicans is so much dumb as emotional and anxious, and not particularly interested in the broader issues beyond the comfort of her little corner of the world.
I agree, though, that I’ve never come out of a social encounter with Republicans blown away by their brilliance or insight, although I’ll grant that libertarians can be amusing as long as they never try to address anything important.
matoko_chan
@latts: Only 6% of scientists are republicans.
Do you have a hypothesis about that?
Cat
@matoko_chan:
How can you say they weren’t comparing results from IQ test when you quote the paper that says atheists scored ~6 points higher then “Dogmatic persuasions” on IQ tests.
If they were not in the typical normal distribution of the IQ tests then you made a very large mistake in calling them IQ points.
I also looked up the author of the paper. This same author claims a 5-8 point IQ difference in favor of men. Which is roughly the same measure you use to claim Atheists are more intelligent then “dogmatic” people.
Still standing by his methodology?
latts
@matoko_chan:
How about two:
1. Some smart people do not pursue scientific careers.
2. Scientists with conservative political leanings may identify as independents instead of Republicans, which is an appropriate– and not especially intellectual– response to GOP policies.
Huntski
“Iâm getting to the point that I just donât give a shit anymore.”
You and everyone else, but where does that leave us?
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
To restate your hypothesis so as to make some sense out of this goulash, conservatives (assuming we can meaningfully demarcate this group) have a lower mean IQ than non-conservatives, and the religious have a lower mean IQ than the irreligious. Assuming all that, so what?
Hoo-kay. Again, to what end? It’s not a trick question.
You seem to have an opinion about the classes of people to which he belongs.
Not sure what this means. Are you talking about the writer Steve Sailer? I’m not talking about him.
And nearly all religious individuals have some degree of doubt. So what? I’m asking a straightforward question. Assuming your correlations to mean IQ, so what?
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
This statement makes no sense to me. IQ is a test score. Higher/lower IQ either correlates with an identifiable group or it doesn’t. Researchers have identified groups and found their mean IQ. The question is, once you’ve done that, then what?
I’m not sure what you’re getting at. What I’m asking is, once you’ve identified the set of religious people, and established that their mean IQ is lower than that of irreligious people, then what?
And the reason for making the connections that Matoko Chan is making is…
reality-based
by the way –
now that Jonathan Chait and Jonathan Cohn and Ezra and Andrew Sullivan and a whole bunch of supposed centrists ARE now blaming Rahm – –
can those of us who have been shouted down, and repeatedly hippie-punched, for blaming Rahm all along –
CAN we blame Rahm now? If not now, When?
slag
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.):
Religious people value religiosity over intelligence (as it’s measured by IQ test)? That would be my guess. Another possibility is that one of the elements is compensatory. Either IQ is compensating for lack of religiosity or religiosity is compensating for lack of IQ.
That said, as I mentioned, I don’t believe IQ measures what some people think it measures.
Also, FYWP.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
Again, so what? You’re still talking about a statistical mean. Assuming the hypothesis, what are you going to do with the information that Their Side has a mean IQ a few points lower than Our Side?
slag
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.):
As I said, I don’t care about IQ. I was just pointing out that an inverse relationship isn’t entirely implausible or even necessarily coincidental (as it would most likely be with race–psychology of race, notwithstanding–or teeth size).
But there are a ton of reasons to learn about and discuss differences in values. And to not dismiss or ignore those obvious differences.
matoko_chan
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.):
This means conservatives lack the substrate to recognize that HCR is actually a good deal for them…….they are permeable to demogoguery.
So to answer Coles readers question, no good a’tall.
Umm….no. Conservatives hate intellectuals…..because they cant be intellectuals……Sanchez’s conservative inferiority complex, or ressentiment.
That is why the conservative elevation of their superior “commonsense” and “morality” is so evident……try this–
@Cat: umm….relative IQs of the XX and XY has nothing to do with this discussion, AND relative between group IQs as in race has NOTHING to do with this discussion.
There is a substantive body of evidence that religiousity is negatively correlated with IQ. The correlation of conservative ideology with religiousity is also high, approaching over 95% evangelical or other dogmatic religious identification, ie most conservatives exhibit high degrees of religiousity, as in trying to impose WEC values on gay citizens….
Therefore I can state my hypothesis as “conservatives have in general lower IQ than liberals.”
There are far far fewer conservative post-baccs and scientists and film-makers and uni-professors then there are liberals in those professions.
Now, you may say what you like about the value of IQ as a predictor for performance……but I am just stating the facts.
QED
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
Will we be talking about the difference in values between proponent A and proponent B, or will we be talking about mean conservative values vs. mean liberal values?
matoko_chan
I meant to say…… most conservatives exhibit high degrees of religiousity, as in trying to impose WEC(white evangelical christian) religious values on gay citizensâŠ.and high school science teachers. 77% of repubs polled believe creationism should be taught in science classes.
<3
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
Thank you for cutting to the chase. We now know that nothing you say can be taken seriously.
Also, you didn’t make clear that the latter two blockquoted sections were not my words.
Appending this to a post does not in fact demonstrate anything.
matoko_chan
H@Bruce (formerly Steve S.): how do you explain redstate antipathy to HCR when the citizens need it worse than bluestate citizens? How do you explain medicare recipients protesting against government healthcare when they are ON government healthcare?
lower IQ substrate, lower amounts of education, permeability to demogoguery.
there is a reason the conservative highly religious base is described as “low information”…..that is a euphemism for low IQ.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
According to you because everybody with inferior substrates moved there.
You’re a clown, go away.
matoko_chan
pfft.
this is a very old fight, and its been going on since Kylon and Pythagoras. Sort of pointless to blame me for just stating the obvious.
Nope. It is just that a whole lot of people with the ability move away.
matoko_chan
honestly….these people are dooming their children to the “low information” cycle.
QUESTION: Should sex education be taught in the public schools?
YES: 42%
NO: 51%
NOT SURE: 7%
QUESTION: Should public school students be taught that the book of Genesis in the Bible explains how God created the world?
YES: 77%
NO: 15%
NOT SURE: 8%