Christ- I hate waking up and seeing things at TPM that I normally see at the Politico:
So Much For That! Bipartisan Jobs Agreement Falls Apart Almost Instantly
And then Brian goes on to explain the bill wasn’t bipartisan at all, because the Republicans refused to sign on to it after larding it up and then were informed by Grassley that the bill could only go forward if the Democrats would do something about the estate tax.
But what will be the message gleaned from this piece? Not that the Republicans are up to their same old bullshit, but that the Democrats fail at “bipartisanship.”
Robin G.
Really? I think it could be taken the other way, as well.
Not that Politico meant for it to be anything other than Good News for Republicans(except that it was actually TPM, I’m an idiot), but it seems to me that the headline could cut against the GOP, too. I mean, they backed out instantly? My goodness!anon
Look it sucks but its the frame that our own leaders from Obama down have decided to go with. They suck as leaders.
TR
I took that headline to be written in a “good riddance” tone.
t jasper parnell
Exactly right.
dmsilev
What talking heads should be saying: “Republicans believe that tax breaks for Paris Hilton are more important than jobs for ordinary Americans.”
Why, oh why, can’t we have a political party that at least *tries* to push back hard against the other side?
-dms
Comrade Mary
John, even our “liberal” Globe & Mail framed the story in the same damned way.
Democrats cut GOP out of Senate jobs bill
(Oops — it’s sourced to the AP. Figures.)
Robin G.
@Comrade Mary: Wow. That’s some truly impressive slant there.
Dan Robinson
I can understand why Obama continues to quest for Republican involvement in government. During the Civil War, Democrats tried to stone everything that Lincoln was doing, including fight the fucking war.
These Republicans are lightweight. It’s Democrats like that shit bird from Nebraska and that trollop from Louisiana who deserve condemnation.
John Quixote
@Dan Robinson:
Comparing Mary Landrieu to a trollop is an insult to trollops.
Max
Saw the report the Obama is going to give commencement address at Univ of Michigan.
Can’t wait for the outrage of last year as the rest of these announcements are made.
Who can forget the Univ of Arizona’s misstep, or the Notre Dame hypocracy.
Good times.
AnotherBruce
It might have been headline fail, but the article is a pretty straight up summary of what went down. I don’t see this as some kind of jab at Obama. It can be read as criticism of the Republicans as easily.
MagicPanda
Hey… I was just happy that Harry Reid rejected it. And if this turns into an actual media story with legs (why did the democrats reject the bipartisan bill?) it would just shed more light on what was in that bill that we rejected.
The framing isn’t perfect but it feels like not a huge deal to me.
Zach
The Dems fucked this up. Should’ve had a bill that was 100% tax cuts; in the form of instant rebates for jobs created and things of that nature. You can come up with a bill entirely consisting of tax cuts that progressive Democrats will like (for instance, instant tax credits for anyone who goes into a job training program). Make a separate bill for extending unemployment benefits since that will be relatively uncontroversial.
The point would be to have a bill that Republicans will vote against (because while these things are tax cuts, they don’t get the omgdeathtax or capital gains tax or corporate tax). Democrats can say, loudly and publicly, “WTF; these are all tax cuts? What do Republicans really want except to say no?”
So you either get a bill that passes with 80+ votes since no one wants to vote against it (and thus get bipartisan cred) or you get a bill that fails against a filibuster with 59 votes and win a huge advantage in the midterms. Seems like a pretty obvious strategy.
Edit: And since it would be entirely changes in the tax code that sunset in a year or two, you can pass it through reconciliation if the GOP’s ballsy enough to filibuster it.
Zifnab
NO ONE EFF’N CARES.
On Nov ’10, no one is going to be asking “Gee, was such-and-such Senator / Congressman bipartisan enough?” inside the polling booth. You’re not going to get reelected based on how many hugs you gave to opposition party members.
It’s about Jobs. Jobs, jobs, jobs. If I’m unemployed, I’m likely voting for the other guy. If I’m still employed, but my paycheck isn’t going up, I’m likely voting for the other guy. If I just think Congress is sitting on its thumbs, wasting my time, I’m likely voting for the other guy.
Republicans know this. And since they’re the “other guy”, they’re fighting tooth and nail to make sure everyone hates people currently in office.
The media might be running a continuous stream of bullshit nonsense, but it won’t matter by November, because the rhetoric will all be thrown on its ear anyway. All this “bipartisan” crap will be down the memory hole at the end of the media cycle. But the legislation will still be on the books.
GReynoldsCT00
I read that as a smack against the Repubs. Our guys have no stones but the Repubs are just a bunch of insideous wankers.
J.W. Hamner
Progressives have been screaming for Reid to abandon the pretense of bipartisanship since the start of Obama’s term… so we’ll see if they’re right. Though if the call was to go it without Republicans then they should have made the case for a reconciliation jobs package to avoid these bad optics.
The real question is whether Reid has the stones to hold on, or whether he is going to walk it back today.
Chat Noir
@Max: Here’s the announcement on U of M’s website. Commencement is May 1.
Max
@Chat Noir: Hopefully, they are able to avoid the drama that comes with these things because our president is a black, kenyan, soc-list, pinko, teleprompter.
suzanne
@Max:
It was Arizona State, actually, not the University of Arizona.
(Sorry, I’m sensitive; my bachelor’s is from UA and I’m getting my master’s degrees from ASU this May.)
And, actually, it was pretty cool. ASU set up a scholarship program in his name for poor kids, and Obama shook every single one of their hands during the graduation ceremony last May. (Including one from my high school.) Obama said in his speech that he would prefer programs like that in his name to an honorary degree anyway.
Eric U.
@AnotherBruce: I felt the article could have been more clear. It looks to be another case where the republicans got everything they wanted, but wouldn’t vote for the bill.
John Cole
@Zifnab: You are missing the damned point. If the frame is the Democrats fail at bipartisanship, you are not accurately portraying the Republicans as obstructionist. And that DOES matter, because it means the Republicans can keep doing what they are doing, which is blocking all the things that Democrats are trying to do that voters WILL remember in November.
John Cole
@AnotherBruce: Oh, the article was great. It was the headline that sucked.
The Bobs
Don’t know if any of you are watching the America’s Cup race, but Oracle is absolutely smoking Alinghi. What an awesome boat.
Kristine
Slanted headlines draw clicks and reader eyeballs. Conflict. If things seem to be going well, or no change is expected, who will click through to read the story and the surrounding ads?
I hate to say it, but I think business is trumping fact here. Shocking, I know. Could be a little Eeyore-ism along for the ride–progressives seem to love to wallow in angst more than conservatives. But when I see an irritating headline, I click through, even when I’m on a site like HuffPo which I know slants headlines like nobody’s business.
Ash Can
I honestly don’t understand why I’m reading all the griping in this thread, and that includes the original post. According to The Hill, the lovely and talented Max Baucus, along with all his Republican BFFs on the Senate Finance Committee (the same BFFs who assured him he had their backing on HCR, yessirree), produced a “jobs” bill that gave the GOP concessions up the wazoo. A bunch of other, actual Dem senators cried foul, Reid agreed, and said, “Fuck you and your committee, Baucus, I’m rewriting this piece of shit.” (OK, the language is wishful thinking, but you get the idea.)
And the reaction here is to complain? WTF is not to love about this situation? What am I missing??
::heads back to the kitchen for more coffee::
::Returns with coffee and edits:: OK, now I see the original griping is about the framing. I see. I guess I don’t do reading comprehension or nuance too swell when I’m not sufficiently caffeinated.
gnomedad
In other news, Hens cut Foxes out of housing talks.
saucy
I have the impression that TPM has been going downhill recently. They’ve been getting more shrill and less analytical. Having a blaring headline every day doesn’t help. They’re still worth reading though.
Woodbuster
Same shit, Different day.
Michael
OT, but nyceve is now getting desperate at the GOS. She’s still getting recced to the top, but little commentary on her new shifted crusade to please pass the Senate bill.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/2/12/836394/-Is-the-Senate-bill-better-than-nothing
Guess the Hamsters should have thought about that some time ago.
Assholes.
Napoleon
What could possibly be going though Baucus head with this bill? You have to wonder with Reid giving it the hook so quick whether Baucus will be back as the chair next year (but I guess that assumes the Dems grow a pair).
Elisabeth
@Chat Noir:
The statement says President Obama was born in Hawaii ~ have they seen the birth certificate then?
Bill E Pilgrim
The word bipartisan has become meaningless in the current climate. It’s as abused as the filibuster is.
If the Republicans had four people in Congress you’d still hear David Broder and the Villagers whining about how any vote that didn’t include those four was “partisan”.
Strictly speaking, of course, he’d be right, since it means “of one party” or “of one part”. But when one part has 59 votes, that’s a huge majority, which is what should matter.
We should accuse the Republicans and the Broders of the world of being “non-majoritarian”, which is far more damaging than what they’re complaining about.
Max
@suzanne: Sorry for that mistake.
I think the scholarship program is great, but the thing that got me with Arizona State was their statement about how he didn’t merit an honorary degree because his body of achievements wasn’t impressive enough, yet they gave one to this random group of people.
gnomedad
Democrat seeks
ideascheese fromRepublicanscheese shop.Napoleon
@Michael:
Was she for killing the bill before?
GReynoldsCT00
Good post from Benen
MikeJ
I think Obama has done a good job in the past week or two pointing out that bipartisanship has to work both ways. And as TDS and Colbert showed us in nearly identical pieces (down to the punchlines), the GOP screaming about Obama setting a trap with talk of bipartisanship is fucking *hilarious*. .
HRA
The jobs issue has me thinking about times past. I finished growing up in an area where every smokestack that spewed orange and black was proof there were jobs to be had without an education. Now all those stacks are gone. No one cared then for it was what we did to shore up the economy of those we conquered in WWII.
This general area only has mediocre jobs for anyone. It does not matter if you are educated. In fact it’s not very easy to get one of those mediocre jobs.
When a really good job comes along, the lines of applicants are enormous. At the same time, many stores are closing their doors forever and empty buildings are dotting the scene every week.
Many jobs are being outsourced and businesses of all kinds are downsizing. When I started working at the U., my office had 72 employees. Today we are at 19 employees with 6 being student workers.
The trade treaties have done us a world of hurt.
I don’t see a path to getting out of this mess.
John Quixote
@MikeJ:
As Senator Ackbar declared – It’s a trap!
Bill E Pilgrim
@gnomedad:
That’s actually pretty good. It reminds me of that long-awaited “budget” the GOP released.
Democrats: Not much of a budget, is it?
Republicans: Finest in the District!
Democrats: Why do you say that?
Republicans: Uhm… it’s so clean!
Democrats: Well, it’s certainly uncontaminated by any numbers, that’s true.
mr. whipple
That’s TPM for ya: always eager to frame in GOP terms.
cat48
NYT spelled it out…..$31B expiring tax cuts not related to jobs; $10B expiring Medicare pmts to Drs., and the estate tax reduction had to be attached. Reid plans to do several smaller bills so the Dems won’t get attacked for a large spending bill in election. Really brave of them.
Obama budgeted $266B for jobs and stimulus.
Gravenstone
Ya know, TPM could have saved John a wee bit of bile this AM simply by using air quotes around “bipartisan”.
Mike Kay
got it
dmsilev
@John Quixote: Well, you have to admit unleashing a tiger on the Republicans may be a bit over the top.
After all, I’m sure there are plenty of American large cats who will do the job without needing to outsource to India.
-dms
Chat Noir
@Elisabeth: There you go!
It’s the University of Michigan, so, yes, they did their research. Excellent institution of higher learning. And this from a Michigan State University alumnus. Still, good on U of M for getting Obama to speak at commencement. I would love to be in the audience to hear the speech.
The Republic of Stupidity
@John Quixote:
Didn’t Grover Norquist decry bipartisanship as on par w/ date-rape, or some such silly nonsense as that?
I think it’s safe to assume Grover hasn’t been anywhere NEAR a living, breathing woman in quite some time.
Ash Can
And in other (good) news, pssst. Don’t look now, but while the Prez and the Pentagon have been calling for a year-long study of DADT, it now appears that they’ve quietly pulled the enforcement foundation out from under it, so that it now has all the solidity of a sand castle that’s been built a little too close to the water’s edge.
arguingwithsignposts
@Ash Can:
Just words, you o-bot.
Mike Kay
Michael:
Wait a minute, are you saying Dumb and dumber are NOW favoring the Senate bill?
I ask because I refuse to click on GOS.
What cause them to flip?
suzanne
@Max:
Yeah, I concur that was bullshit.
His speech was great, though. He took the whole “his body of work is still to come” line, and crafted his whole speech around it. My husband graduated last spring, so I got to see it. Everywhere you looked, people were crying. It was quite a night.
Mike Kay
@Ash Can:
But Obama is still a Homophobe, cuz I-want-my-pony-now say Obama should have repeated the same mistake Clinton did by repeating the ban in his first week in office by fiat.
Joy
@Max: It was ASU not UA! Big difference!
liberal
@Zifnab:
Agreed. I don’t see why people think this bipartisans$it affects election outcomes.
John Quixote
@dmsilev:
That’s a good thing, since Tunch is currently looking for work. Although he’ll have to get in line with the four monsters I currently house. And they never pay thier part of the rent.
Pangloss
This deal falling apart is a feature, not a bug. We’ll get Republicans on the record voting against a jobs bill. That’ll be a nice final line on the campaign ads this fall.
Elisabeth
@cat48:
CSPAN is the next best thing without the traffic. :)
(I went to Ohio State so I refuse to give U of M too much credit, though.)
Zifnab
@John Cole:
I mean, I agree. However, framing the debate on February 12th isn’t going to matter on November 4th. People have a hard enough time remembering where our trillion dollar deficits came from. They’re not going to recall the degree of partisan nicety as portrayed by a schizophrenic and continuously bullshitting media.
Framing the debate doesn’t matter today. Getting legislation out the door matters. If the Democrats passed a larded up tax cut bill, the Republicans would tear them apart for a) being fiscally irresponsible and b) not cutting enough taxes come November. And all the media would be able to talk about is how the Democrats failed. If they pass their own bill, the Republicans will tear them apart for a) being fiscally irresponsible and b) not cutting enough taxes come November. And all the media would be able to talk about is how the Democrats failed (because the DOW moved down 0.2% yesterday!)
The Democrats need a media game, but they don’t need it messing with their policy game. The Republicans have mastered the art of divorcing how they vote and what they say. The Democrats need to learn how to do that, too. Democrats need to hammer out legislation on jobs, with a healthy mix of whatever tax cuts and spending will be most effective, but they need to hit the Republicans on whatever rhetorical strategy works best on the spur of the moment, regardless of what is in the actual bills.
This desire to build legislative policy around yesterday’s GOP talking points is insane. It generates bad bills, it pisses off the left-wing base voters. And it doesn’t garner one wit of GOP support.
And since the independent “swing” voter really just translates to the uninformed rube too lazy to so much as Google a bullshit claim, all Obama has to do on Nov ’10 is give the age-old Reagen platitude “Are you better today than you were 2 years ago?” Let the legislation do the heavy lifting, score cheap points with mindless talking point three weeks before voting day, and the middle will come to you.
John Quixote
@The Republic of Stupidity:
Oh, I’m pretty sure he has. He just has to pay for it. No woman (or man, for that matter), would willing screw a guy who wears suspenders without some sort of compensation.. Why do you think Larry King is on wife number seven, or whatever it is now? Alimony is a real bitch. Ask El Rushbo.
The Raven
Holy Joe has shown the Way. Baucus apparently is an incompetent negotiator–how the devil did he ever get into the Senate? Why is he still there? And how are the Democrats going to hold on to his seat, now that he’s been exposed as weak and incompetent?
Tune in next election for another issue of we’re so f’d.
BTD
@John Cole:
Did you see the White House statement prior to Reid’s putting the kibosh on it? Here is the statement:
Was that statement politically astute in your estimation?
John Quixote
@Zifnab:
You assume that the MSM would go along. They are too fucking lazy and brain dead for that. They want the GOP in power. ‘Cause they get thier precious, precious upper class tax cuts, and Big Daddy will protect them from teh dirty mooslems.
They get nothing out of pointing out that the GOP are nihilists. They might have to suffer the indignity of having thier taxes raised by 4% if they do.
Pangloss
Montana only has 900,000 people. Baucus may very well be in the top 50% in competence.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@John Cole: Reid did the right thing by sinking Baucus, the story itself supports that the Dems aren’t signing on to Rep blackmail in the name of biwhatthefuck, and some people here are bleating their usual manic-progressive bullshit about how the Dems are bad at “framing” because some shithead in the media wrote a bad headline.
I get your frustration the media (or the headline writers anyway) is ignoring Rep thuggery, thievery, and obstructionism. Me too. But I’m getting really tired of the fuckwits on the left who take up this howl about bad leaders and failed democrats at the drop of a headline, or at the mentioned of some anonymous staffer saying something negative. If the problem is media misperception and misreporting, these people are giving cover to that misreporting by feeding the “failed Dem policies” and “weak ineffective leaders” bullshit.
“Reality-based” progressives? It is to laugh.
slag
My significant other and I took the day off yesterday and visited all three of our national representatives. We couldn’t get a commitment from anyone (all Democrats) to pass healthcare reform.
According to the staff, one of my senators said they were “committed to getting a bill that would pass with 60 votes”. As I was writing my comment sheet out for the senator, I couldn’t decide whether including the phrase “that’s bullshit” would make my comment more or less persuasive. I decided against it and went with “I don’t care about 60 votes; I care about comprehensive healthcare reform”.
I hate these people.
The Raven
@Pangloss:
Montana–where cows vote.
Sigh. I croak too. But the truth the of the matter is there are plenty of smart, competent people in Montana. Why isn’t one of the sitting in Baucus seat?
Tune in next election for this year’s edition of, “We’re so f’d!”
Bill H
@The Bobs:
I tried to watch it, but the video keeps restarting to to beginning. I have been “welcomed to the Americas Cup” about fifty times, and sat through a whole bunch of repeats of waiting for a start. Have actually gotten fairly close to starting a couple of times, but all of a sudden we’ere back to “Welcome to the Americas Cup.” I am not feeling all warm and fuzzy toward ESPN right now.
I take it Oracle won?
Comrade Scrutinizer
@BTD: I’m curious. Do you think that Congressional leadership, in particular Reid, is trying to wrest power to form legislation back from the White House?
General Winfield Stuck
@BTD: That’s just boilerplate WH rhetoric for a process in it’s early stages. How do you know the WH didn’t know that Reid was going to clean out the wingnut lard? At this point in the sausage making for this bill, what would you have Obama say? If it had been wingnuts in charge of the senate and this was their first draft, then it would likely be close to the final product, but dems are in charge, so the need for early shrill rhetoric threatening veto’s and such just isn’t necessary.
You seem as well as other progs, more interested in immediate optics and posturing.
BC
You’ll have Baucus around until 2014 – he was re-elected last November. Then, he might retire and Brian Schweitzer will get the seat (Schweitzer is governor now and all-around good guy – won’t be a liberal, but better than Baucus).
Ash Can
@arguingwithsignposts: Hee hee! Of course it’s “just words.” Gotta dangle a few shiny objects in front of the press, wingnuts, and other cretins to distract them from what’s actually getting done, so that they stay the hell out of the way.
Michael
@Mike Kay
It appears to be so.
I should follow your example. There’s little there that is worth a shit to read anymore – just a horde of manic progs with TU status who love to pitch donuts at opinions that make them squeal.
I’m guessing the realization that by repeatedly dropping steaming turds in the punchbowl, people are eagerly writing them off the party invite lists, and that they’ve got to repair that.
I think they’re kinda late for that. Outside the cohort of assholes who drive 20 year old Volvos that are held together with bumperstickers and aging, barrel-bodied battlebot professors of feminist ecology or deconstructed something (most of whom I want to punch in the neck until they can do little more than wheeze), nobody is going to give a shit about anything that Ralph Nader or Jane Hamsher or any of their minions have to say for the foreseeable future.
Zifnab
@John Quixote:
They want access and they want status. Part of that comes from the bosses at the studios and the parent companies. But another substantial part of it comes from the Washington cocktail circuit. The Washington Press Corps needs to be handled like the fussy French aristocrats under Louis XIV. They need a place to hold endless parties and they need constant fawning admirers and they need validation.
Obama, Reid, and Pelosi control the access these peacocks get on the Democratic side. They just haven’t learned how the game is played. Getting invited to a Presidential Ball is a big deal. Getting on the White House Press Corps is a plum job. These are prizes the current administration hasn’t learned to wield for media influence.
And, again, all of that is somewhat meaningless if the base voters aren’t seeing results. You’ll swing the independents with a good news cycle, but you need the base voters for reliable turn-out and strong fund raising. And you need a powerful message broadcast by your base that their agenda is winning. Because independents love to be on the winning team.
Obama needs legislative victories now so that – come November – he’s got a base with something to crow about. He can worry about winning news cycles later, and bills passed today – even bills passed through reconciliation with the slimmest of margins – will snowball into rhetorical victories down the line, as a jobs bill here and a HCR bill there get defined as successes / failures by the talking heads on election season.
BTD
@General Winfield Stuck:
You think? Did you read Ezra Klein today on a related matter?
Is there ever going to be a point where you might think the White House is mishandling these issues?
BTD
@Comrade Scrutinizer:
I think in essence it has.
The House will not pass the Senate Stand Alone health bill without a reconciliation fix despite that being the wish of the White House.
The White House statement n the Baucus-Grassley disaster demonstrates that they were good with it.
The Senate Dem Caucus revolted.
I think the entire process is quickly spiraling out of Obama’s control. No one fears him. And why should they?
The Republic of Stupidity
@John Quixote:
And if those women are charging by the inch… they’re the ones doing the screwing here…
***rimshot***
Thank yeeeeeeeeew… thank yeeeeeeeew verrrry much…
You’ve bin a wunnerful audience…
The Republic of Stupidity
@BTD:
What? Has The Sternly Worded Letter™ lost its ability to intimidate?
jibeaux
Eh, it’s pretty clear to me that it was a bipartisan proposal that looked promising until the Republicans backed out. Anyway, it’s TPM, not USA Today, it’s not a place where low-information voters are even going to be going, much less swayed by the wording in a headline. I’m all for going after liberal blogs when they’re substantively wrong, because I’m sure they can be influential, but I don’t think we have to fret about them in this kind of detail.
TooManyJens
Let’s talk framing. Screw bipartisanship, we need to accuse the Republicans of being anti-democracy. The fact that the majority of the electorate voted for Democrats and wants to see Democratic policies enacted means nothing to them, because that’s not what they want. The voters can go fuck themselves as far as the Republicans are concerned.
John Quixote
@BTD:
Klien isn’t wrong, but he’s not exactly right either.
The rules are different. Because Obama is:
A – a Democrat
B – Black
C – Someone who won’t suck the collective cock of the MSM
Recess appointments? That would be framed as hyperpartisan. Doesn’t matter if Dubya and the Big Dog (get well soon) did it, the MSM will frame it that way because it will draw eyeballs and GOPers will fall over themselves to get in front of the cameras and claim as much, and the MSM talking heads will nod in agreement. The MSM will get thier precious conflict.
Reconciliation? Same as the above.
Is Obama a saint? Nope. But don’t kick the guy around because the GOP, the MSM and members of his own party are constantly playing Calvinball.
All 3 want to fuck him over.
General Winfield Stuck
@BTD: The issue of recess appointments has about zero to do with the WH rhetoric on a single bill in it’s early stages of being legislated.
On the recess appointments maybe you missed the part of your own blockquoted statement from Ezra. That he has actually made it harder for himself to do by defining them as a last resort. Those of us who care about excess presidential power kind of admire and respect Obama for acting this way.
And apparently, Mcconnell and other senate wingnuts got a little Obama fear during the meetup this week where obama read them the riot act on their obstruction of appointees in particular and obstruction of his agenda in general.
That means there are now just 34 holds left on his appointees and he is not letting up demanding they by confirmed.
Recess appointments are a bad way to govern. They are limited to 18 months or less, with the promise of taking up more time later on to fill the position when the recess appoint. runs out, and the appointees do not have the blessing and credibility of a senate confirmation.
You don’t like Obama’s style, ok, that’s cool. I do, most of the time, because things nearly always work out not only his way, but a better way than taking shortcuts. You folks want Obama to be more like Bush, it seems. I don’t.
Kay Shawn
“I have the impression that TPM has been going downhill recently. They’ve been getting more shrill and less analytical. Having a blaring headline every day doesn’t help.”
What he or she said.
I think TPM jumped the shark last weekend when they went nutso with the Patterson rumors. I’m so sad to see this.
t jasper parnell
@BTD: Ezra Klein, boy columnist, is wrong. Not that hard to figure. Not only is he wrong but he shows signs of having adopted the whole Dems can’t do anything right cant. It stupid unreflexive, knee jerk, journalism.
John Quixote
@General Winfield Stuck:
This.
t jasper parnell
@t jasper parnell: And before I am accused of Obototudeness; the Administrations policy decisions, for example civil liberties, are wrong. They aren’t wrong because Obama et company are dirty lying no good lying liars who hate democracy, liberalism, and the very concept of ponies.
Comrade Mary
Ah. I was joining in the grumbling about recess appointments because I didn’t realize that were spackle, not concrete. Why do something both dramatic and half-assed if another route gives at least half of what you want the more durable way immediately? He can still use the recess appointments in a few weeks if they’re needed for the remaining appointments. It’s probably a better mixture of political and process wins than charging ahead with appointments now (and having no choice but to deal with them again in 18 months.)
Political strength is important, but a political move that requires more political maneuvering at a point where you may have lost some flexibility and power is a sign of a gambler. Obama isn’t a gambler. As long as he can be tough as needed, I’m fine with that.
BTD
@General Winfield Stuck:
Oh I strongly disagree. It has everything to do with the Post Partisan Unity Schtick
I find it interesting though that the worm has completely turned on this – Mark Schmitt has recanted the Theory of Change. Cole won’t write the words Rahm or Obama White House, but his critiques are basically the same now.
The “All is well” line and the “Don’t Worry He’s Got it” rubbish is now a thing of the past.
The Inside Game, Rahm’s Game, is at its nadir.
The Obama Team is just not quite ready to accept that.
But I think they have to now.
BTD
@t jasper parnell:
Sure – it is always the guy who disagrees with you who is the “stupid knee jerk.”
The guy who agrees with you is always reasonable, thoughtful and brilliant.
It is pretty funny.
And of course I am exactly the same way.
Who do we ever really convince anyway?
General Winfield Stuck
@BTD: You want a 50 +1 political strategy for democrats and Obama to adopt. And it seems you are not alone. Maybe Hillary could make it happen. And the worm for you BTD never has never turned the Obama way, despite your declarations of support from the primary forward. Just to get that straight.
NR
The Democrats dug their own grave here. The fact is, they only need 50 votes plus Biden to pass legislation in the Senate.
But instead of forcing the Republicans (and their ConservaDem allies) to mount an actual filibuster of a very popular bill (such as the House’s jobs bill), time and again they have bought into the frame that they need 60 votes to pass anything.
Just think how different the political climate would be today if the news stories read “The Republican filibuster of the jobs bill continued into its third week today. This is the Republicans’ 23rd filibuster since this Congress was sworn in last January….” instead of “The Democrats once again failed to secure the necessary 60 votes for their legislation….”
At what point do we realize that the Democrats simply don’t want to pass progressive legislation, even when it’s very popular? They could use the nuclear option, reconciliation, or even just force the Republicans to do a “real” filibuster to get what they want.
After a full year, “We need 60 votes” just looks more and more like an excuse.
t jasper parnell
@BTD: Actually no. The guy who disagrees with a process decision based on the main actors being incompetent, rather than disagreeing with them on tactical grounds, is a knee jerk maroon. Sorry that wasn’t clear.
See, Klein isn’t content to argue that appointing more temporary appointees is a good idea not doing amounts thanking the Republicans and shooting themselves in the foot.
t jasper parnell
@NR: 60 votes to move to vote over the objections of other senators, i.e., cloture, is, in fact, a rule. How do you propose the Dems change the rules?
ETA I agree, however, that some of the Dems wish that the progressive/liberal wing would take a long walk off a short pier. Only some.
NR
@t jasper parnell: Did you read my entire comment? If nothing else, they could force actual filibusters, instead of just saying “Well, we didn’t get 60 votes, time to chuck the bill.”
El Cid
Is our Senators learnin’?
kay
@General Winfield Stuck:
Ezra Klein is probably disappointed that health care reform is stalled, and who can blame him?
He worked his ass off to put honest arguments and facts out there, and he was essentially alone, in both the traditional media and liberal internet sites.
I don’t have any opinion on recess appointments, but he’s credible in a way that many Obama critics are not.
I will always be grateful for what he did on health care. I learned a lot, his work was well-sourced and reliable he was almost unique in that, and he’ll be important when opponents of reform try to rewrite the record of what actually happened here. And they will try. They’re already trying.
jibeaux
@NR:
Look, it’s been talked to death, but an actual Jimmy Stewart-style filibuster is harder on the majority (they have to all be there, ready to vote, while the minority just needs one guy) and it tends to provide teevees and attention to the minority party to talk about whatever they want indefinitely and without opposition, such the imminent death panels, yadda yadda. See one of many brief summaries of the problem here.
jibeaux
@El Cid:
Why do your linky look it’s going somewhere, but it don’t?
BTD
@t jasper parnell:
I actually do not understand this comment.
t jasper parnell
@NR: Did you read the linked article?
t jasper parnell
@BTD: Not that hard really, Klein doesn’t just disagree he defames. What is clearly a success following on Obama doing what all or many of his critics have been saying he hasn’t done, i.e., directly confronting the Republicans in manly man maner, Klein insists that the success is actually a failure.
t jasper parnell
I think I better go do something else for a bit.
BTD
@General Winfield Stuck:
This is of course deflection Stuck. On a number of levels.
Hillary Clinton is not at issue here. She is not President. so who knows what she would have done.
But let me make my views clear – I think she would have been pulling the same shit. The Fighter routine was pulled out as a campaign tactic. I doubt that is where her head was at. But we’ll never know.
As for the worm turning with regard to MY views, of course not. I have been advocating against the PPUS for 5 years.
The worm has turned in the sense that MORE people are seeing it my way, even amongst the Village Dems.
In many ways, Balloon Juice hosts the last big contingent in the blogs that are still strongly resistant to this reasoning.
It is an interesting phenomenon. The funny thing is that Cole and the commenters are more than ready to fight with any Dem or progressive that disagrees with their take on this (and good for you for that), but seem reluctant to see Obama do the same with Republicans.
It is an interesting irony.
El Cid
Sorry — corrected link to Durbin on helping reform the filly bustah.
kay
@t jasper parnell:
Ezra Klein will probably be listened to. Because he’s credible, he deals in facts, he knows his main subject area better than anyone else out there, and he hasn’t been announcing failure since election day, with something like glee.
Him I listen to. Anyone who gloms on to his specific complaint here to announce they “were RIGHT, about EVERYTHING, because Ezra agrees!” is probably a hack.
So don’t put him in a group where he doesn’t belong.
BTD
@t jasper parnell:
All that means is you disagree with Kelin’s argument.
I really do not see how that makes it “defamation” or “kneejerk stupid.”
It could be both those things certainly, but I do not see your argument for WHY that is.
General Winfield Stuck
@kay: Ezra is my main man for HCR and generally for most topics on actual governance, though with some occasional disagreements.
And the truth is, after 8 years of Bush “my way or the highway” method on presidenting, I can see, up to a point, why some folks on the left get exasperated with Obama’s slower and respect for process style. I never have used the 11th dimensional chess thing to describe it, but have stated he is usually 3 or 4 moves ahead of his opponents. But not always, sometimes the wingers and members of his own party throw knuckle curves that don’t seem rational by historic standards on political moves, so some vapor lock occurs.
But for me, though some mainstream issues like HCR were at the top of my list of importance to be dealt with by Obama, the number one and over riding issue for me is returning to governing with respect to the rules and law and separation of powers. And most of all, trimming back presidential powers more in line with what the framers wanted. And was shredded in large part by Bush and Cheney, and even some by Clinton.
And I think Obama is smart enough and capable enough to do that plus get more directly relevant issues to peoples daily lives done to. It just takes longer this way and causes impatient people to be impatient.
BTD
@kay:
Heh.
You are too funny.
Just to be clear, I agree with myself because I think I am right, not because anyone agrees with me.
I mentioned Ezra’s post because I thought he made a good argument about how Obama messaged the recess appointment thing.
Believe it or not, people who disagree with you are capable of independent thought.
It is easy I suppose to label those you disagree with hacks. As I noted earlier, we all do it.
But it is meaningless. As all of this is.
No one is going to be convinced.
BTD
@General Winfield Stuck:
Stuck. you write the “over riding issue for me is returning to governing with respect to the rules and law and separation of powers. And most of all, trimming back presidential powers more in line with what the framers wanted. And was shredded in large part by Bush and Cheney, and even some by Clinton.”
How are you feeling on those issues? Parnell has stated he is not satisfied. I’d be curious to hear your view.
John Cole
I’m complaining about the damned headline that makes it look like Democrats fault for failing at bipartisanship, not the fact that the Republican concept of bipartisanship is to load up a jobs bill with bullshit tax cuts and then to fail to endorse it. Christ, I’ve been pretty clear.
John Cole
@BTD: No. It was idiotic. But at this point I think the WH is just so shellshocked by the incompetence of Senate leadership that they will take anything they can get.
Ash Can
@John Cole: I know. That’s why I edited my comment. Thanks anyway, though.
General Winfield Stuck
@BTD:
Obama has 90 percent approval with registered dems and similar with likely voters. The “blogs” are but a tempest in a teapot of the body politic, full of piss and vinegar and dumb as sacks of hatchetts. And aligning yourself with the village idiots we call the MSM and the resident sheeple dem pundits is not something to brag about in my opinion.
I see it different. I see your tribe willing to adopt any wingnut frame and meme to get your Obama FAIL message out. I see idiots setting fire to their own house with nary a clue nor fact why. Other than coveting something that doesn’t exist, a democratic dictatorship where shit gets done by decree, and if it doesn’t, and some patience is called for, it’s break out the kerosene and burn the motherfucking dem house down.
And it is laughable in the extreme to suggest this blog doesn’t go after wingnuts. It’s just that lately, we have had to deal with a slew of concerned dem morans without two facts or brain cells to rub together on how this countries government works.
kay
@BTD:
Baloney. Here’s what you wrote.
I don’t have to add anything. You’re as transparent as a 5th grader.
What I find most interesting is how far you’ve gone from your own actual positions. You’re no lefty. I’ve read your stuff. You’re a left-leaning centrist, like Obama.
So, I’ve concluded that for you, it’s personal. You allied with real lefties because they were going after Obama. Any port in a storm, eh?
General Winfield Stuck
@BTD: I could care less about what Parnell says, whoever he is. And it is comical that in a thread where you are complaining that Obama is not making enough recess appointments to suit you, that you ask for an opinion on how I am with him reserving or trimming back presidential power.
My opinion of how he is doing is that he isn’t torturing people, he is working toward resolving Bush’s nightmare of imprisoning people without trial or giving POW status.
You will need to provide specific examples of why you think he isn’t cutting back Bush’s excess in these areas, and then I will comment on them.
General Winfield Stuck
@John Cole: Sorry, I don’t agree. It has no meaning at this stage of senate sausagmaking for a jobs bill. It was a generic public statement meant for Village consumption and little to spin, though they still did, that’s not Obama’s problem. And whereby we have no idea of what is going on in private. Harry Reid scuttled the SF committee bill. Do you think the WH had nothing to do with it? I don’t, but nobody knows for sure, except it was a good thing
Corner Stone
@BTD: I know it was a rhetorical question but surely by now you have more than enough to answer it.
kay
@BTD:
I must have misunderstood “the worm has turned”.
I think you’re bootstrapping off Klein’s credibility, and in my personal opinion (so don’t put it on Cole, please) you haven’t earned credibility on critiquing Obama policy or tactics.
Based on my reading of your stuff. Past and present.
I think that’s a cheesy and transparent tactic.
MNPundit
I’ve said it again and again but he doesn’t care. Josh Marshall forgets that his job is to make the country liberal and enact liberal policies.
NR
@jibeaux: The point is not necessarily to wear the Republicans down physically, the point is to change the media narrative. Forcing the Republicans to shut down the Senate for weeks at a time in order to stop popular legislation would result in a very different media narrative than the one that currently exists. Right now, the Republicans are getting all the political benefit of filibustering everything the Democrats do while paying none of the political cost. And the Democrats have only themselves to blame for this situation.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
“Shellshocked”? Christ, I hope not. They’ve got the nuclear go codes. They appoint the people who run the Federal Reserve. They’d better be completely impervious to “shellshock”.
And isn’t that why he appointed Rahm as COS? Isn’t that why he surrounded himself with old Washington hands in important positions? I just don’t buy the argument that they’ve been stunned by Washington’s inertia. If we simple bloggers and commenters saw it coming a mile away it stretches credulity to think that the White House team didn’t.
Nick
@NR:
they do. It’s when they can break filibusters that they chuck the bill.
For example, a filibuster happened over the Becker nomination. DId you hear anyone talk forever? No, because that’s not how it’s done unless the filibustering senator wants it that way.
Nick
@NR:
Let me explain to you what will happen here, and I work for a newspaper, so I can confirm this is the narrative that we’d go with.
“Democrats won’t negotiate with Republicans, so nothing popular can move because Democrats won’t negotiate with Republicans. Democrats are incompetent because they can’t pass popular legislation. Why are dems so partisan that they’re willing to hold up popular legislation for their own special interests.”
NO ONE and I mean NO ONE is going to frame this as Republicans shutting down the Senate. The President, the Majority Leader, Al freakin’ Franken can scream to the high heavens and we, the media, will spin them as just “spinning partisans defending their own”
Republicans will win, trust me on this. We’ll make sure of it.
General Winfield Stuck
And yes, I am an Obot. sosume. I am because somebody has to be. But I don’t do it without making an argument as to why I think this or that.
As a peace offering to all the wounded in this dem civil junk kicking, I offer
The Clown Cannon.
I just pretend the clown is politics in general and my own rancorous musings in particular. You can pretend the way you want.
Ash Can
@Nick:
Why not? And I’m asking that because I’m genuinely curious about your take on it from a newspaper-insider’s standpoint. We all have a great time here lambasting the press when reporters and pundits do dumb things, but it’s all essentially spleen-venting on our part. We don’t have the insight that you do. I’d be interested in hearing your take on this.
Amanda
Maybe the best rule change would be to require 41 votes to continue debate rather than 60 votes to end debate.
Joy
It’s kind of like the headlines or storylines at HuffPo. I’m not sure which way they are going there anymore.
General Winfield Stuck
Is Reid some kind of hero that put Rahm in his place, or someone losing his marbles. Flipping and flopping with the changing of the tides. Looks like “I have Liebermans vote for HCR compromise” all over again. He had better be willing to fight tooth and nail with a certain wingnut filibuster, or go the budget reconciliation route, or this is just another dumb half ass gesture that will sink a jobs bill.
Wonder what 180 degree changes will come tomorrow.
Nick
@Ash Can:
Simple, because we in the media like conflict, we like to get the public all riled up, we like surprise elections.
We don’t want the Democrats to succeed, lest they keep winning elections and Republicans are marginalized that conflict doesn’t exist. We need Republicans to make a comeback and we’ll do what we can to allow it to happen.
I’m not kidding about this, the media IS NOT YOUR FRIEND.
Nick
@Joy: Huffington Post is a great place if you want to read about Kourtney Kardashian tasting her own breast milk or vegetables that look like penises.
BTD
@kay:
“Earned credibility?” This is just the nonsense I expect.
Here’s a thought – think for yourself. If the argument makes sense to you, then think about it. Maybe the argument might be right.
Sheesh.
kay
@BTD:
Non-responsive, BTD. I do think for myself.
You, on the other hand, have to bootstrap.
You went from Klein’s objection to Obama’s handling of recess appointments to “the worm has turned”. Wow. That wasn’t subtle.
Not “I, BTD, agree with Ezra Klein on recess appointments” but “the worm has turned, and a credible person like Ezra Klein now agrees with BTD”.
I don’t necessarily object to it, you may or may not need Klein’s credibility to make the point in your post, that the worm has turned in BTD’s direction, but let’s not pretend it isn’t a tactic. It is.
I didn’t write the comment where you went from recess appointments to a much broader interpretation. You did.
NR
@Nick:
The 60 votes are to cut off debate and proceed to a final vote. If they don’t get 60 votes, that means debate continues. Debate requires someone to be talking.
The reason people aren’t talking forever is because Harry Reid isn’t forcing them to.
General Winfield Stuck
@General Winfield Stuck: After doing some more reading on the ins and outs of the jobs bill, and how the SF committee bill was constructed and the winger reaction to Reid’s stripping out some of the bizarre shit like extending the Patriot Act etc.. and even with all that whacky wingnuttery not committing to vote for it before it was taken out by Reid. My conclusion is the US Senate is completely and irrevocably broken and Obama and the country might as well just say fuck it, there is no use trying to get anything passed through that body, not even giving wingnuts everything they want seems to work. It is a near Psychotic branch of government as it currently stands with no end in sight. Maybe a Constitutional Convention or some other drastic measure will fix it. Today, at least, I am not so opposed to the nuke option on the cloture rule, if it comes to that.
It is not even worth following politics with things as they are. It seems the country is being held hostage by the ghost of Jefferson Davis and compromise is not in the offing. And a house divided cannot stand, and it must be all of the one thing or all of the other.
And if you doubt this, then read again Cole’s little opus yesterday on where it stands. The answer as to why is mostly there.
galt
kay
@General Winfield Stuck:
You are vacillating wildly between hope and hopelessness.
Decide, already :) I’m getting dizzy.
sparky
i concur with the sense of frustration about the “framing” issue per our gracious host. as far as that goes, let’s see: the Ds had years of watching RR beat up on them, and then they could have read the various books put out. they could also certainly have gotten access to the weekly distribution of bullet-proof talking points; more importantly, they could have figured out a response before this. after all, the wurlitzer, though it has some new shiny objects attached to it, has been doing the same old same old for the better part of two decades. the Ds, frankly, stink at appealing to the general public. and after almost twenty years it’s their own damn fault. the only people who beat this system are people like Clinton and Obama, who are personally popular. unfortunately for the party and the country, that personal popularity doesn’t carry very far, partly because those actors are, at bottom, rather timid and apparently unwilling to risk their auras on substantive policy that might anger an entrenched constituency.
Nick
@NR:
this is incorrect and has been disproved AD NAUSEUM for like three years.
When a Senator filibusters, all he needs to do is object to cloture and then suggest the absence of a quorum. If there are not 51 Senators on the floor, a quorum call goes forth until there are, once there are, debate continues, at which point said Senator can suggest the absence of a quorum leading to another quorum call and another and another under 60 votes can cut him off.
sparky
oh, and if you want an example of why people like me think some of the thinking here is just wrong, you need look no further than the comments above about DADT. for some reason, the notion that a sub silentio ignoring of DADT is good news trumps the reason it’s being ignored, according to the linked post–that the US has now essentially exhausted its reserves of troops, having continued to fling them at a world which, for some reason, continues to be unhappy with being bombed and shot at by the US and its various mercenary armies.
it’s not that i disagree that the policy is foolish and wrong. it’s that claiming this is good news in this context is a bit like being happy about getting a good view on the Titanic.
General Winfield Stuck
@kay: I think the senate is hopeless, that is my conclusion. And without that body functioning, then hope is in short supply. That is where my vacillation comes from. All this pooh flinging by me and others is parlor fun and of no great consequence. A totally dysfunctional senate is of great consequence. Something needs to be done to correct that situation. I don’t know what exactly, but something. Because it stops everything, and as a country, if we are not moving forward, we are moving backwards, I think.
You add that on to now having unlimited corporate cash for elections, which will certainly help wingnuts get their insane message out and drown out all other messages of hope, then we are in a big shitpile in this country. And I wouldn’t be surprised that is what wingers are hoping for, and why they have just quit participating in the US Senate, in hopes that big money will get them back into power. And that doesn’t make me hopeful.
BTD
@kay:
You really believe that? Look, I’ve been writing stupid shit all on my own for a fairly long time.
But you go with whatever you want to believe.
Mnemosyne
@sparky:
In other words, now that you’ve actually gotten the thing that you’ve been screaming about for over a year, you’ve moved the goalposts so there’s a way that you can continue to bitch and moan about how horrible Obama is (“He’s only repealing DADT so he can kill gay and lesbian soldiers!”).
And you wonder why no one here takes you seriously.
NR
@Nick: The tactic you suggest requires a Republican Senator to be on the floor doing it. It doesn’t matter if he’s doing that or reading the fucking phone book, either way he is actively preventing the Senate from completing its business. Make the Republicans do this and we’ll start seeing headlines like “Republican Filibuster of Jobs Bill Continues” instead of “Democrats Shelve Jobs Bill After Failing to Secure the Necessary 60 Votes.”
Nick
@NR:
So? They’ll do what they’ve been doing, which is send a different Republican to call for a quorum call every time the call is finished. Clearly you’ve not watched filibusters on CSPAN recently.
Yeah, no, you won’t. You’ll see “Republicans fight partisanship” and “Democrats fail to get jobs bill passed”
mclaren
It’s entirely evident by now that Barry Obama is a superb writer who has no skill as an administrator and no organizational or leadership ability.
Obama seems like a really nice guy. He’s in completely over his head. Time to admit it: we’re looking at another failed presidency.
Gotta admire the Republicans. They’re ruthless and determined. Evil, yes — but they’re committed to what they believe in. This is a replay of Spain in 1937. The sadists and thugs are fired up with unholy fervor, while the forces of decency and justice are filled with apathy and disinterest.
The Republicans said health care reform would be Obama’s waterloo. It was. The Republicans said they would break him. They did.
If only the Democrats had fought as fiercely against the Iraq war, against torture, against the abandonment of habeas corpus…
Time to pack it in. America is finished. The Republicans can’t be defeated. Their inhuman total discipline will crush everyone and everything in their path. No opposition has a chance before a party that can command total 100% unanimity in vote after vote. If you own a house, sell it and emigrate. If you rent, leave what you own behind. The descent into totalitaitarian nightmare begins soon, and it will only get worse as the Supreme Court’s recent corporate-free-speech campaign donation decision turns American politics into a nightmare from hell. Get out of America now while you can. It’s over. Save yourselves.
General Winfield Stuck
@mclaren: Go soak your head Mclaren. You add nothing to the debate but mindless wankery.
scarshapedstar
I disagree. No one who reads or writes TPM would be so dumb as to think that bipartisanship is a possibility, much less something to be desired. The message I got was “HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES ARE THEY GOING TO TRY TO KICK LUCY’S FOOTBALL? A 2-MONTH-OLD WITH A BROKEN MAGIC 8-BALL COULD HAVE TOLD YOU HOW THIS WOULD GO DOWN!”
Nick
@mclaren: LOL!
Nick
@scarshapedstar:
No one who reads or writes TPM would ever consider voting Republican, that’s not the audience we’re talking about.
mclaren
@General Crackpot Stuck:
That’s rich, coming from you:
General Winfield Stuck
@mclaren:
Yes, but I’ve been soaking my head and am all better now.
And besides, Rahm made me say so things, the fiend.
edut – and am certain I said it better, mr Mcwanker.
Comrade Kevin
@mclaren:
I stopped reading your comment right there. I can’t imagine it gets any better.
scarshapedstar
@Nick:
Here’s my one big problem with the line of thinking that you and John seem to espouse. It makes the deeply flawed assumption that “swing voters” (if they even exist; I’ve seen more unicorns in my lifetime) are any more thoughtful or informed than Frito Pendejo, the “lawyer” from Idiocracy.
The people who are so goddamn stupid that they’d still vote for a Republican… would never read TPM in a million years. Maybe that’s elitist, but really, who falls into that lamentable category these days?
1) Teabaggers
2) Assholes
3) Clueless, ADD-addled, casual CNN/Fox News viewers
None of them care what Josh Marshall thinks, and few even know he exists.
mclaren
@Comrade Kevin:
Perfect example of how most Democrats are crackpots.
You people are kooks. Classic cranks. A bunch of tinfoil-hat loonies. Use a guy’s born name, and you go berserk.
Instead of dealing with the actual serious issues, you whimper and whine about bullshit about whether somebody uses the name a person was born with.
Pathetic. No wonder the Democratic party is circling the bowl. Keep it up. President Palin will applaud you.
Nick
@scarshapedstar: I just said that.
You don’t need to see “swing voters”all you have to do is look at election results. Indiana didn’t go from 60%-39% GOP in 2005 to 50%-49% Democrat in 2008 without a huge number of voters going Bush-Obama.
Part of the problem is you don’t believe there are a huge swath of voters out there who voted for Obama and is willing to vote Republican now. Look at Massachusetts where over 22% of Obama’s voters voted for Brown and like half of them still liked Obama.
These are the people we’re speaking to, these are the people who think bipartisanship is possible and do fall victim to the GOP/media lies that we’re not attempting at it.