Read this link.
The old Ed Morrisey would have been able to tell the difference between the then proposed nuclear option and reconciliation. And, we can assume, should the Republicans ever come back into power in the Senate, he will suddenly rediscover the distinction.
The nuclear option is an explosion of existing Senate rules and had never been done. Reconciliation is a Senate procedure, and used quite commonly, most recently by Republicans.
Mike Kay
Chuck Butcher
My argument would be with the word “become.”
Zifnab
Wow, really? That’s kinda like saying, “Give me your money or I’ll shoot you” and then concluding that you were never robbed because I never pulled the trigger. As for executive appointments, the Bush Era was nothing if not the Age of the Recess Appointment.
Meanwhile, it really doesn’t matter all that much. Biden was protesting what he believed to be bad policy. Had there been 51 or 61 Republican Senators, he’d be protesting just as hard filibuster be damned.
Now he’s championing good legislation, and the Republicans are opposing it. That the legislation is behind a 60-vote firewall hardly matters to the public. People just want affordable universal coverage, and I honestly don’t think they’d care if it was done via unanimous consent or military coup, so long as the damn bill got signed.
I mean, Christ on a crutch, imagine if in 2001 Bush had turned to his constituency and said, “Gee guys I really wanted to get those tax cuts passed, but the Democrats filibustered the legislation. What was I to do?” They’d have Ross Perot’d his ass out of town on a rail through the kester come ’04.
dmsilev
Hang on. You’re assuming that he wasn’t a hack *before* joining Hot Air.
-dms
General Egali Tarian Stuck
They have no respect for the truth, only that which creates the most convincing lie. Of the 22 times budget reconciliation has been used, most often it was the wingnuts that used it. And used it for ideological legislation they couldn’t get passed by regular order. Namely Welfare Reform.
Fuck Ed, he is just one more tune in the wingnut wurlitzer. I despise nearly all republicans, most of the media, and many democrats for their utter lack of respect for common truth, without which, no democracy can survive for very long.
jenniebee
Is it possible to spin in good faith?
Martin
Personally, I think the only response to this repeated lie by the GOP is to actually invoke the nuclear option. Why not? Can’t wind up any worse than it is now.
demkat620
@dmsilev: What he said.
But point of fact, I can’t understand why my party can’t come out and make a cogent argument for anything.
They have a registration advantage, a favorable opinion advantage, a money advantage and they could still be looking at historic losses in the fall.
To a party filled with hacks and crazies just like Ed.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
The old saying goes that in wartime the truth is the 1st casualty. What DougJ calls “postrealism” is a symptom of the militarization of US politics. Our politics is the continuation of civil war by other means.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@jenniebee: No one has a monopoly on what is completely true, lots of gray area and cases to be made. As far as spinning in good faith, that’s where the term “respect” for the truth, or an honest effort to get to it comes into play. Political lies imo, are kind of like what Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart offered in definition of obscenity.
Of course, people have to be sufficiently informed about what is going on around them and in the country they live . Short of that, the wanking spinmeisters have their hay day.
Chuck Butcher
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
I’m not too sure about that, the death toll per day is lower and most of the deaths are by brown foreigner surrogates, but other means is a bit strong. The dying here…well.
Tonal Crow
@demkat620:
I also don’t understand it. Most national Democrats seem positively allergic to effective rhetoric. It might have something to do with a natural shyness at calling a lie a lie. And the fact that GOPers lie so much that, to be correct, you have to say that they’re lying not once, but many times. Daily.
Tax Analyst
@Zifnab:
Boy, Feinstein has really been pissing me off the last few years. I guess she’s gotten too clubby with the asshats on the other side, because she’s really been obsessive about “bipartisanship”. Hey, look, it’s OK to try and bring the other side over, but when they absolutely refuse to budge on every single issue it’s time to do what you need to do to pass good legislation.
She can buddy up to whoever she wants after she takes care of business.
demo woman
Was this headline meant for another blog?
Eric U.
It always amused me when the freepers were up in arms about something until their betters in the Bush administration made an about-face. Then some freeper that hadn’t gotten the memo would get horribly flamed or even banned for making a post that would have received praise the day before.
zmulls
This was the official line on Rush Limbaugh today (as I found out in the 60 seconds between the time I turned on the radio and changed the channel. Deliberate blurring of the line between “nuclear option” and “reconciliation,” deliberate feigning a lack of knowledge that you can’t use reconciliation for judicial nominations, etc.
It’s just too tiring sometimes.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: I really do think we are having an ideological war in this country for the rights to run it, albeit a cold one. It’s gone well past individual candidates and their personal virtues for leadership.
That is in full display with the current GOP and it’s demand that everyone act as a single force for their core beliefs, whatever they are. And there are many dems clamoring for our side to do the same and cut whatever cord of commonality of purpose with the other side, and just pursue our will on the left only.
And it is getting harder to disagree with this thinking, though if it fully takes hold, then we are on a slippery slope to politics by other means, and all the possibilities that implies. Sad shit, but not that surprising in this innately bifurcated society on basic world view.
JoshA
I really can’t believe this “argument” is making the rounds. Give me a break.
“Nuclear option” = elimination of the filibuster for all Senate business by declaring all filibusters unconstitutional.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_option
The use of reconciliation, by contrast—which is only available for budgetary items—was repeatedly used by Republicans, its only Democrats who have shied away from it, using it only once since taking over.
http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2009/04/the-legislative-history-of-reconciliation-19802008.html
In addition, the GOP’s “nuclear option” threat came in the face of far less Democratic obstructionism than the GOP has offered once they went into the opposition. Cloture is the way filibusters are ended, and cloture currently requires 60 votes. The number of cloture motions needed more than doubled during the first term the Republicans were a Senate minority, and is on track to increase again:
http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/reference/cloture_motions/clotureCounts.htm
And that’s not even getting into stuff like Shelby’s “blanket hold until the foreign companies that back me get a $40 billion military contract” stuff, or the fact that GOP Senators are forcing cloture votes even when they support they underling legislation (as with the recent pathetically small jobs bill, which just got over 70 votes on the bill after getting only 62 for cloture).
Ugh.
cat48
Never read Ed before he was at Hot Air so I’m neutral.
There is a really good article that was written last year by Brookings about Reconciliation. It has a table that shows all the bills passed and when and who. I’ll attempt a link in case anyone is interested:
href=”http://www.brookings.edu/articles/2009/0420_budget_mann.aspx?p=1″>
I collect this stuff for when my Republican relatives come to visit since they are, uh, misinformed.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
@demkat620:
No matter how cogent the argument made by Democrats is it is always drowned out by shit like “Death Panels! Teleprompter! and “Teh Soshulizm!” And then it is reduced to “he said, she said…the truth must lie somewhere in between?”
Take “Teleprompterz!” Everyone knows this is bullshit but it just keeps on going with no sign of abating.
We’re fucking doomed.
Tonal Crow
@General Egali Tarian Stuck: Governance is a game in the mathematical sense. That surest way to lose the game is to repeatedly cooperate with an opponent who has decided to win at all costs. To restore some balance, you must fight back. I see little to indicate that this will lead to “politics by other means”. I expect in most cases it will cause the opponent to re-evaluate his stands and become more cooperative.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Chuck Butcher:
One of the truly bizarre things about US politics today, at least on the GOP side, is that instead of pressing the Dems as a means to try to effect policy changes, they pick policy for no better reason than to hurt the Dems (see for example the budget deficit commission brouhaha). It is tribalism run amok with no rational relationship between ends and means, of the sort which is implied by Clausewitz’s famous sentence “Der Krieg ist eine bloße Fortsetzung der Politik mit anderen Mitteln“, the English paraphrase of which I used (with deliberate irony) in my comment, only with the ends and means reversed.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Tonal Crow: LOL, You confirmed what I was talking about. Well, I said slippery slope to politics by other means, not that it would certainly lead to it. But we do have history, and bloody history at that on the subject. So you may well be right. But does anyone see the GOP as it currently is being bludgeoned into cooperation by left side hegemonic politicking. I get the sense, the hard core of the southern ideologues are spoiling for a fight and not in the mood for compromise. These are people of the lizard cortex, and they have pulled their galt card to stop everything, and know full well it is a taunt to our side to escalate things a litter more with equally hyper partisanship, and strong arm tactics. tit for tat strategy.
Tonal Crow
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: The question is not cogency, but emotional appeal. The GOP understands that most people react from the gut most of the time. The Democrats act as if most people decide most things rationally. That’s an appealing concept, but also a false one. And (irrationally!) clinging to belief in it leads to Lousy Rhetoric ™, which leads directly to losing: do not pass Go, do not collect $200.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
And I will add, it is another reason I am an Obot. Because every fiber of my being tells me, though imperfect for sure, our current brainiac presnit is the very best person to sit in the Oval office right now, and deal smartly and sanely with this shit.
Rick Taylor
Actually, I learned Ed Morrissey was a hack a little while ago when he attacked Matthew Yglesias’s criticism of the filibuster by saying, ““Funny, but I don’t recall Yglesias demanding those changes while Democrats were in the minority in the Senate.”
Evidently, Ed didn’t read Matthew very carefully; even before reading Matt’s reply, I remembered his criticisms of the filibuster, and his warning when Republicans threatened the nuclear option that Democrats would regret defending it.
But that’s not why I’m critical of Ed Morrissey, everyone makes mistakes after all. What struck me was after Matt pointed this out, he wasn’t gracious; he didn’t say something along the lines of, while I still disagree with him, I see my off the cuff jab at him was unjustified. He basically replied with a post saying he was right on what was important even after it was pointed out.
Maude
@General Egali Tarian Stuck: It ought to be interesting tomorrow with the meeting. They always underestimate Obama. And he has that lovely smile when they do.
Chuck Butcher
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
Of the people available at the time I’m more than inclined to agree. But…
Kissy face with those holding your destruction near and dear isn’t apt to be productive for anyone other than the destroyers.
Tonal Crow
@General Egali Tarian Stuck: The Democrats have given the GOP ideologues so many free passes that they have come to demand them as a matter of right. Of course RightBlogistan is going to turn the volume up to 15 (of 10) should the Democrats really fight back. So what. The volume is already at 13 or 14; GOPers viciously attack Democrats no matter what they do.
Modern GOPers are, in large part, like spoiled 2-year-olds. And, likewise, they need a timeout. I would be happy if an adult, such as Obama, were to take their arms firmly in hand, usher them into the corner, and turn up his iPod to drown out the inevitable screams of “Not fair! Liberal Fascist Soshulism! Wah! Wah! Wah!”
Chuck Butcher
I have noticed that John’s opinion of the level of Cappy’s hackitude pretty much tracks John’s reluctant slide leftwards. Since I started well to the left of John and haven’t moved much my opinion of Ed’s earlier stuff is considerably less forgiving. He was a BushCo shill four years ago and now shills for whoever it is he thinks is king of their shitpile this week.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Chuck Butcher: You see kissy face, I see setting up your mark with non reactionary olive branches. Seeing Obama in action with the house wingnut meetup, it was like watching watching a cool cat lead those mice onto a dinner plate. I expect more of the same Thursday. And with all the smiling and glad handing Obama has shown the GOP, what has he really given up. Certainly not any of their biggest demands. A few clever crumbs, like temporary tax cuts for the poorest with the Stimulus.
It is funny to watch. Repubs know they are being outmatched at every turn, and get nothing of value. It is one reason they have taken their ball and gone home, and are painting themselves into the party of no corner. And when Obama dresses down the senate minority leader on holding up his appointees, the next day nearly half get released. He is skinning them alive, a little at a time and there is nothing they can do, but crawl a little farther into their shell, and in spasms of fear, bolt forth with grand gestures of cooperation.
And now, cutting up the cheese ball into little squares and forcing the mice out into the open with popular non ideological treats in the senate. And too many on the left, cannot, or will not see the strategy at work.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Tonal Crow:
I think a better analogy is they are acting like the leadership of the CSA would have acted if they had chosen to stay in the Union in 1861 and instead of trying to fight a war for their independence they had used all the tools available (e.g. the filibuster in the Senate) to sabotage and destroy the Lincoln admin. from within.
Desert Rat
What is the word “become.” I do not think this word means what you think it means.
Ensign Ed has been a hack since he started blogging.
Steve
I am with John. Captain Ed was always a winger, but back when he had his own blog he was pretty willing to call bullshit on his fellow right-wing bloggers. Now he’s just another megaphone for the faux outrage du jour.
Although I don’t think John’s example really proves the point he wants to make. The debate is whether Ed used to be a hack back when he had his own blog. I don’t see anyone around here claiming that he’s not a hack right now.
Interestingly, though, I’ve seen Allahpundit at Hot Air be reasonable more than a few times. Not saying he’s on my bookmarks, mind you.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Tonal Crow: I agree that CC’ers, especially in the Senate need to develop their own messaging strategy that is smart and focused, and not depend on Obama to do it all. That is obvious. But giving in to the taunts to break rules and such, I don’t agree with, as sometimes we hear suggested.
And Harry Reid is not the person for that, and that is part of the problem. He is really a back room negotiator type and not ready for prime time pol warfare in public. He was a good minority whip, not a good majority leader, imo.
Just Some Fuckhead
DougJ, maybe you could put up a special Obot thread entitled “For Those About To Barack, We Fellate You.”
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Just Some Fuckhead: Looky see, the cute little toothy troll jumps from under his bridge and bites some ankles.
Chuck Butcher
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
Are you suggesting he hasn’t gone along with the cutting the treats up strategy you just got done bringing up? Or is it that they got too cut up? Or what?
In regards to getting backstabbed, lied to, and generally screwed over by his own, I’d say Reid’s job sucks more than Obama’s, since Congress and the Senate are not Obama’s Branch. But then, I don’t ‘bot for anybody – ever.
Comrade Kevin
@General Egali Tarian Stuck: Or perhaps DougJ could put up a Naderite thread, so JSF can have a playpen all to himself.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Chuck Butcher:
I’m not a big Reid hater. I was referring to Reid not being good in public to lead the messaging charge against the wingnuts. Have you ever seen him on teevee?, it’s cringeworthy.
And I agree he has been backstabbed, especially by Lieberman and maybe one or two others.
And my guess is, the recent cutting up legislation into smaller portions strategy comes from the arrival of Plouffe back in the WH. And again, I have been a Reid supporter for a long time, but he is just not right for what we are dealing with as ideological pol warfare in the US Senate IMHO.
ETA and I also agree with Tonal Crow that in the senate especially that Reid has ceded to much to the wingnuts since 2006. Especially with how he has handled constant filibusters and letting them become almost like a regular majority voting. He did just this back in 2007, where every vote was for 60 and the wingers didn’t even have to formally oppose cloture, or formally filibuster.
Just Some Fuckhead
Yeah, cuz I got a history of just randomly making worshipful comments about Ralph Nader, no matter the thread topic.
Clowns.
Chuck Butcher
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
I have no illusions on that score.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
good for you
El Cid
This is the Republicans’ new game. I’ve heard it on right wing scream radio.
They had some R-bot call into Thom Hartmann with the same shit.
Over and over and over just repeat that RECONCILIATION is THE NUCLEAR OPTION, the latter meaning the practical elimination of the filibuster.
And in our post reality media, that will be enough.
Just ask Clark Hoyt if James O’Keefe feels that reconciliation = nuclear option, and if O’Keefe says it, that’s good enough.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
No doubt the work of Frank Luntz basement Gnomes.
El Cid
@General Egali Tarian Stuck: I wish I could punch in the mouth the next liberal fucker that talks about what a nice and cool guy Frank Luntz is in person.
Tim F.
Sadly, no. The old Ed never understood why the ACLU would file suits on behalf of groups like Nazis who disagree with the idea of civil liberties. I tried to engage with him several times, but it was like someone gave Hannity a thesaurus.
Chuck Butcher
The “old Ed” was shilling for those in power, the new Ed is shilling for those out of power (politically). Same asshole, different circumstances.
schrodinger's cat
I have no idea who this Ed person is, should I care?
Peter J
Special Ed got his talking points and his paycheck.
If he wants to get paid, he has to write what they want.
Simple as that.
pcbedamned
@Steve:
Ed entered complete hackdom after the election and first open registration. Like Glenn Beck, he is playing to the crowd. Anyone familiar with Hot Air pre-election compared to post-election re: the comment section, would know what I am talking about. But then again, without the continual hate-fest that manifests itself over there on an hourly basis, I would not have found Balloon Juice. So, hack on Capt. Ed. Will be interesting to see where new management takes you all…
I will admit, I still love Allahpundit. He is able to get the idjits over there riled up like there is no tomorrow. And meanwhile, he is laughing all the way to the bank on their stupidity…again, like Beck.
Karen
@JSF
And who would you rather fellate instead?
Anne Laurie
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
You’re
rightcorrect, of course. Sometimes I think “First as tragedy, then as farce” will be carved on the national tombstone.starfleet dude
I spent a few years on Morrissey’s former blog and found out how he could be prickly about dissenting points of view, and the move to HotAir all but made him a shill for whatever line Malkin is paying him to spout. Morrissey isn’t very interesting to read now, unlike Allahpundit who does himself dissent at times from the party line.