Why are Lieberman, Nelson, and the rest of the Senate concern trolls not at the HCR summit? Where is Bart Stupak?
It is telling that the people who did the most to screw up this process and have inordinate power are not even deemed by their peers and their leadership to even be experts on the topic. But there they are, every day, screwing shit up.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
That’s an entirely different summit. I imagine it involving Obama slam-dunking each of them through a basketball goal.
Sentient Puddle
I don’t know, after listening to the back end of the summit, my impression is still that Republicans are the ones who fucked up the process the most.
Napoleon
If any one Dem did the most to screw it up it was Baucus and he was there and got to speak.
SIA
I think certain members of leadership were invited, and they were allowed a limited number of guests. No one wanted those assholes I suppose.
Every time I think of Lieberman blowing up Medicare for 55+ I want to spit bullets. Can we now strip that fucker’s citizen-paid health insurance?
Punchy
I’m as excited as all get-out awaiting Charles Toddler’s assertation that Obama looked weak and ineffectual, while the Repubs clearly articulated their well-designed and cogent alternative HRV plans
Mike Kay
Loserman musta crapped his pants when McSame walked into the buzzsaw.
The Dangerman
I turned it off; what a vacuous exercise. The Republicans, at least in the Senate, will never provide a single yes vote on anything. I’d almost call them on their bluff, break the bill into lots of little bills, and have them vote no on something extraordinary popular.
So, fuck it all, go reconciliation, and get it done.
Redshirt
So, at the end of the day, nothing changed, right? Repugs lie, are never held to account, and Dems – for some reason that no one really understand – will do everything and anything they can to accommodate people who would not piss on you if you were burning.
eastriver
Answer: They weren’t invited.
But then, that was a rhetorical question, wasn’t it, JC?
cat48
I think the Speaker and Majority Leader picked extras; committee chairman were invited by the WH; Boehner asked for another space last night and when he got it, he invited STUPAK……I have no idea why he didn’t show…..the reasoning behind the invites was on the WH Blog….invites, lists, etc. Ck there…..suppose the monkeys you list did not want to come
Mike Kay
How many times can McSame crash and burn in one lifetime?
Osprey
Well, I don’t think this had anything to do with bringing the Republicans on board, trying to work with them, or sharing ideas (kinda obvious). This was all about re-affirming on a national stage how utterly useless they fucking are.
Having Hair Nelson, Lieberdouche, and Stumpfuck there would’ve killed the Summit’s mojo of pitting D against R. Having those assholes agreeing with the Republicans would’ve killed the message.
IMHO^
JC
The one hope I have, probably false, is that everyone gives lip service to the fact that “this is a big problem”. I’m hoping that gives “bipartisan support” for the fact that the Democrats are passing something that attempts to solve the ‘big problem’, even if it picks up no Republican votes.
JGabriel
John Cole:
They’re represented by John McCain, John Boehner, John Barasso, Tom Coburn, and Mitch McConnell.
.
Mike Kay
@The Dangerman:
that’s the point. it was to take all the air outta the goopers boogie man about process.
jenniebee
Go Nancy, go!
Pelosi for President in 2016!
Zifnab
@The Dangerman:
Then you’d run the risk of getting the popular components passed while leaving the necessary components on the cutting room floor. It’s like letting us vote on eating broccoli and ice cream. What do you think is going to pass?
All that said, listen to Nancy Pelosi. Go grandma.
cat48
This was also about rebutting their arguments live while they happened and most important; calling the lies as they occurred………no votes expected……..Coburn came off as truly sincere today……. for some odd reason; he and Obama came in at the same time may be it
I’ve heard him say he tries to write O encouraging notes of support………so strange
Zifnab
@JGabriel: Man, I wish. Those jackasses are totally freelance.
jenniebee
Obama’s wrapping up… I think we’re about to see how this summit was two moves to checkmate in that 11 dimensional chess we’ve been talking about…
General Egali Tarian Stuck
I don’t know. Maybe the adults in the Senate dem caucus finally realized those motherfuckers are more trouble than the Club Med senate decor calls for. We are entering crunch time and stakes couldn’t be higher. I’ve been saying this for a while, that house and senate dems will not let these Cinderella dipshits burn down the dem party marqui issue.
And I believe that the dems have an overwhelming majority in their caucus of decent dems who have had enough of this shit and actually care about people not dying cause they don’t have health care. Despite their dependence on big corp campaign contributions that every pol in our system has to worry about.
JGabriel
Mike Kay:
Running count is at least half-a-dozen.
.
Sentient Puddle
@cat48: Apparently, Obama and Coburn have a really great personal relationship. But that aside, yeah, Coburn did actually surprise me today.
freelancer
@Mike Kay:
5 planes, divorcing his disfigured wife, voting against MLK day, S&L debacle, 2000 primary, publically against use of torture before voting for it, “that’s not the change we can believe in” green screen speech, Palin, “That one!”, Suspending his campaign, Election night 2008, “Bush made me suspend my campain”, Palin, Palin, Palin, Palin, and today.
Quite a few.
What did I miss?
Tonal Crow
Still callin’ those Senators to PTFB. How about you?
jenniebee
@Zifnab: True, but there’s something to be said for the argument that if they did vote for all the ice cream, the insurance companies would come roaring down on Republicans to make sure that the broccoli got passed too. It would put Dems in a position where Republicans really really seriously needed something unpopular passed, which is a pretty nice position to be in.
Dr. Morpheus
@Osprey:
This.
Oh, dear me, I am succumbing to another Intertubes tradition.
Waynski
The Republicans all had their talking points as usual. Everyone of them asked for a clean sheet of paper. Don’t they have any legal pads at Blair House? Glad the centrist Democrats weren’t there. As some one up thread mentioned, they would have been shooting at their own side.
mai naem
@Sentient Puddle: I was listening to a man being interviewed on the radio and he sounded so freaking reasonable and I didn’t realize it was Coburn until several minutes into the interview. But Coburn is also the same guy who thought that lesbian teachers turn their student into gays and that the biggest problem with Oklahoma is lesbians in school bathrooms.
matt
Shorter Obama: Hey all these things we agree on…THATS THE BILL ALREADY
geg6
Boner invited Stupak. Stupak, being smarter simply by the fact that he’s a Dem and only for that reason, ran away so hard and fast from that that he left skid marks on the House Chamber floor, saying Boner didn’t consult him on the invite and he wasn’t interested. LOL.
Mike Kay
@freelancer:
An affair with a washngton lobbyist with legislation before his committee.
Can you imagine if Clinton did that…..
El Cid
But, tort reform, malpractice reform, tax credits, compete across state lines with no fedral regulations, big gubmit, Washington bureaucrats, small business, FREEDOM, individual choice, AMERICANS DON’T WANT OBAMACARE.
If you missed today’s GOP input.
El Cid
Ouch! And Obama just mocked the notion of a 5 page bill as “baby steps”.
JGabriel
@freelancer:
Charles Keating’s bribes? Or were you including that under the rubric of “S&L debacle”?
I count them as separate travesties, but don’t have a major issue with conflating them.
.
The Dangerman
@Zifnab:
Therein lies my point; I don’t think there would be a single Republican yes vote for ice cream.
Tagg
It’s physics. You can only squeeze so much bullshit into a confined space.
Elisabeth
@freelancer:
Flip flopping on his own immigration bill?
CalD
Lieberman’s busy spearheading an effort to create the appearance of action on DADT.
Skepticat
@freelancer: Making radio broadcasts for the North Vietnamese.
El Cid
Hee hee — Obama says, if we drop everything we’ve done and adopt Orange Boner’s bill, we’d probably get a lot of Republican votes. Probably not a lot of Democratic votes.
But then in 5 or so years, we’d still have to confront all of the problems we have now, and more, if we took that approach.
georgia pig
They weren’t invited to send a message as to how useless they are unless they choose sides. As some have said, one purpose of the show was to deflate Republican whining about process. The pundits will yak about who won, etc., but that’s beside the point because they covered it gavel to gavel and Republicans are all over the airwaves.
But the potentially more important purpose relates to why the concern trolls were cut out. Obama is not necessarily looking for Republicans to go along. In fact, all the repeated talk about philosophical differences and “bridges to gap” by idiots like Cantor underlines the fact that there is no compromise with the Republicans. They’ve got their story and they’re sticking with it, and that’s fine. The real compromise is between progressive dems and conservadems, who have become the heirs of what used to be the Republican Party before FoxNews took it over. That compromise has already been struck in the Obama plan.
Hopefully they get the message and will want to be included in the future (i.e., “Joe Lieberman, do you still want to stick with a loser like McCain?”). We’ll see. But I don’t see any other way Obama could have played this given the schisms within the Democratic Party. It’s like a Socratic dialog, but with the members of your own party. The Republicans are merely props.
dmsilev
Obama: “I’d like the Republicans to do some soul searching themselves”.
Assuming they have souls, that is.
-dms
matt
Obama just gave the go ahead on reconciliation.
El Cid
@dmsilev:
This sounds like some sort of demonic hunting expedition by the undead to steal the souls of vulnerable infants or something, when you apply it to Republicans.
Midnight Marauder
President Obama: We have some fundamental disagreements but “that’s what elections are for.”
In other words:
Game on, motherfuckers.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
Because they are radical centrists and have nothing to add. If one side of the debate was, “let’s respect children,” and the other side was, “let’s rape them and kill them,” the radical centrists would urge, “let’s rape children” as a compromise.
NovShmozKaPop
Obama is awfully good in this format. He does a great job of being a teacher in a roomful of immature kids. I love the way he has been answering e.g. Boehner, politely telling him he’s full of it and not contributing constructively to the conversation.
jenniebee
Damn.
You know, we hear a lot about government being run like a business. If this was a meeting at my business, there would have been a lot more clarity about action items.
8 hours of televised posturing. CNN saying that Obama made concessions today, interestingly those concessions made today were already in that 2700 page bill…
El Cid
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.): I used to say this all the time with Reagan’s Central America policies — the news would talk about opponents as one of the two “extremes”, as though one extreme side said “we should hire thugs to shoot civilians and overthrow governments / eliminate the opposition” and the other side said “we should NOT hire thugs to shoot civilians and overthrow governments / eliminate the opposition”, and the sensible moderates would endorse, I dunno, only shooting some civilians, or only eliminating some of the opposition, or maybe shooting them but trying to only wing them, etc.
dmsilev
@El Cid: We’ll know for sure if they put out Dick Cheney as the lead in the project.
-dms
JGabriel
Obama’s one of the last ones in the room, still talking to people, getting their input, making sure they feel their contributions and presence were valuable.
Can’t imagine Bush ever doing that.
.
gwangung
This is to occupy their time, since the Republicans sold theirs to the corporations long ago; it’ll take them months just to track them down given private sector bureacracy.
slag
More thoughts than these, please!
Seriously, John, you have an interesting perspective on these things being a former Republican and all. At one time, I’m guessing you found the arguments that Republicans used at this summit at least marginally persuasive. I want to see you lay it all out. What arguments you heard from them you still found credible and what you found ridiculous. Same for the Dems. Pretty please?
Tonal Crow
@georgia pig: Right on.
El Cid
C-Span Republican caller: Obama should have thrown away everything Democrats done and just take another few months to do whatever Republicans agree to.
Tonal Crow
@matt:
Linky: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/25/AR2010022503828.html .
Now’s the time. Please call Congress and ask them to PTFB…er, excuse me, PTDB. If you also want a public option, please ask for that. http://whipcongress.com/ .
Mike Kay
Tweets to CSPAN and indie callers giving Obama & summit rave reviews.
NovShmozKaPop
@jenniebee:
Listening to him today I realized that he is very good at seeming to agree with an opponent and make concessions – except that if you listen carefully he’s generally not really giving ground.
JGabriel
gwangung:
Republican souls = Mortgages sold to Goldman Sachs, cut up like Voldemort’s essence using the Horcrux spell, and repackaged as derivatives.
.
Cain
@jenniebee:
How would they know? They kept breaking away to talk or have a commericial when a dem started talking? What is their goddam problem anyways?
cain
gwangung
@JGabriel: Damn. I bow to a [MUCH] superior quip.
Mike Kay
Dem Leadership on CSPAN 3 pounding the mic.
mai naem
@JGabriel: AIG is played by Max Baucus and Ben Nelson in that scenario.
Zifnab
@NovShmozKaPop:
/Checks his pants for the public option.
dougie
Dem leadership press conference is pretty clearly laying the ground for reconciliation. Is it just a bluff to encourage GOP cooperation or did they have the summit as a pretense to justify reconciliation?
cincyanon
Mary Matalin quotes today:
A majority vote is: “It’s tyranny of the minority.”
The republicans want to scrap everything and start the process over yet “Republicans have immediate proposals right now to help the American people.”
Up is down!!!!
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@JGabriel:
LMAO
jenniebee
Ladies figure skating tonight, and may I say I really miss the days of Tonya Harding. It was great knowing that when you watched, no matter what, somebody was going to crash and burn…
geg6
JGabriel FTW.
Mike Kay
@dougie:
they did it to dispel the myths/fears about “big goverment”
JGabriel
@gwangung: Thanks. Not superior really, merely building upon your observation.
.
Island in Alabama
@JGabriel
So Tranches are Republican souls?
Heh
mcc
@dougie: I think they held the summit as one last sincere attempt to get Republicans on board with some plan, any plan, in order to lay the groundwork for reconciliation once the Republicans refuse.
Uloborus
@NovShmozKaPop:
I am discovering to my delight that Obama delivers the most polite ‘fuck you’s I’ve ever heard. I assume after a hard breakup he leaves a really generous tip by the bed. That’s basically what calling this conference was.
How long has he been doing this and I didn’t see it?
Svensker
@Zifnab:
And did ya find it?
arguingwithsignposts
Well, Ron Fournier has already mailed in his “analysis.” I think he’s angling for the Broder Chair in Bipartisanship.
I wish the AP would get out of the “analysis” business. Hell, I wish most of journalism would get out of the “analysis” business.
geg6
Now we get to hear what the GOPers think happened today. Aaaaaaaaand…they are discouraged because NO BLANK SLATE! 2700 PAGES! HE TOOK MORE TIME AND ARGUED WITH US! TAX AND SPEND! POLLS!
JGabriel
Shorter Jon Kyl: The President spoke more than we did! Wahhh!
.
JGabriel
dougie:
Both. It works either way. That’s why Republicans kept calling the meeting a trap, even though they asked for it.
.
Nick
@Cain: They make shit up, that’s what they’re paid to do.
Tonal Crow
A staffer just told me that Sen. Klobuchar supports passing a bill with a public option via reconciliation. Please keep calling.
Midnight Marauder
@Uloborus:
Day 1. Really.
He’s just gotten exponentially better at it over time.
geg6
Some guy with a foreign accent is screaming about illegal immigrants on CSPAN. And Independent callers are slamming the GOPers.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
To answer the top post question, consider the Council of Elrond scene from Lord of the Rings, rewritten with Blue Dogs Dems in attendance:
[Elrond]: The Ring is pure evil. And Sauron knows we have it.
[Gandalf]: We can’t use it, and we can’t throw it away either.
[Elrond]: That leaves us no choice, we must send it to Mt Doom and cast it into the fire to be destroyed
[Boromir]: Hey come on guys, just let me use it for a while. A little bit of corruption of the soul never hurt anybody. I promise! The war will be over in 1 Friedman Unit, and then I’ll totally give it back.
[Blue Dog Dems]: Let’s compromise. Give the Ring to Saruman – He’s better than Sauron at least. Hey, look at this really cool swag I got at IsengardRulesAll.com (holds up a totebag and a baseball cap with a White Hand logo). And it was totally free!
Mike Kay
Callers to CSPAN have been stellar (even on the gop phone line).
Tonal Crow
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: Good one!
valdivia
@Mike Kay:
oh details please, stuck watching something else here.
Kryptik
You know…sometimes, I wish I could go up to people who, in response to the health reform issue, claim that ‘We have the best care in the world, why should we change it’, punch them in the nose, and ask ‘hey, how you gonna pay for that best care there, bub?’. Then again, I’m growing increasingly bitter about things these days. That and I throw a wimpy ass punch.
geg6
If CSPAN callers are any indication, the numbers on this may move. Even GOPers are not happy with the GOPers.
Mike Kay
@Tonal Crow:
dude, don’t get your hopes up on the po.
as of this moment, Dodd, Wyden, and Feingold have refused to sign on. If raving liberals don’t support it, then the votes aren’t there.
Zifnab
@Svensker: No, sir. No I did not.
Just Some Fuckhead
You are clearly not aware of Oklahoma’s Steers and Queers problem.
robertdsc
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
Win!
Tonal Crow
@Mike Kay: I’m calling, not hoping.
Mike Kay
@valdivia:
the Dem line, Indie line, and GOP line are all praising Obama, calling him masterful, and they’re saying, whether you’re for it or against it, it’s time to vote.
Tonal Crow
@Mike Kay: Upperdown vote! Upperdown vote! Upperdown vote!
valdivia
@Mike Kay: awesome. Let’ s see the Village spin this against Obama. Today was an incredible day.
Nick
@valdivia: David Gergen on CNN “Intellectually, the Republicans had their best day in years”
What do they care? They’ll just say shit.
kay
I’m glad we got the GOP catastrophic care + Health Savings Account plan out in the open.
We have two largish employers here who use that approach and people hate it. Even ordinary costs, like a mildly complicated pregnancy (which can total 20 grand) can put them into bankruptcy, once they spend the 2500 bucks they socked away in the HSA.
Why is this plan taken seriously? How are you supposed to cover the amount between 2500 dollars and 100,000? Republicans think ordinary Americans are going to put 100,000 dollars in a savings account? When have they ever done that, and where are they going to get it?
Dreggas
@Nick:
well if he means they didn’t drool on themselves and sputter a lot then yes, it was their best intellectual day in years.
Tonal Crow
@Nick:
If that was a good day, I’d hate to see what it’s like when they forget their Aricept.
Martin
@Nick: Sadly, that’s probably true. Of course Sarah can also say the same of Trig fairly regularly as well.
valdivia
@Nick:
you are joking right? Is gergen saying they ‘won’ the summit?
dmsilev
@Nick:
Sad thing is, he’s right. Compared to, say, Bill Frist’s remote diagnosis of Terry Schiavo, the GOP was positively professorial today.
-dms
El Cid
Republicans had a wonderfully intellectual day. They kept repeating TORT REFORM, MALPRACTICE REFORM, TAX CREDITS, FREEDOM, INDIVIDUAL, NO MANDATES, GUBMIT TAKEOVER, COMPETE ACROSS STATE LINES WITH NO FEDRUL REGULATION, CANADA SUCKS, and PEOPLE SHOULD JUST SHOP FOR HEALTH CARE BARGAINS.
Midnight Marauder
@Nick:
This has to be the ultimate definition of “damning with faint praise.”
geg6
Well, we did get one moment of bipartisanship today. I think that people of whatever political stripe now agree that Paulie Walnuts sucks and is a total loser.
Corner Stone
@Kryptik: That’s why the sweet baby jeebus and his older brother made your forearm / elbow into such a fine smashing implement.
Dreggas
@kay:
I had that option at my work, get a HD plan and an HSA. I can barely put money in my regular savings account let alone put money into an HSA. Not to mention that the first 1200 a year in med expenses had to come out of my pocket BEFORE insurance kicked in.
Instead I am on the plan where I better never need surgery, and don’t get me started on the cost of my prescriptions.
Corner Stone
@El Cid: Obviously the three things Frankie Luntz told all of them to use were:
1. Cross state lines
2. Malpractice reform
3. Government takeover
Every one of them hit one or all of these three things.
Just Some Fuckhead
@kay: I think the only way an HSA plan really works is as the place you store the money to pay the deductible on a high deductible health insurance plan with lower monthly premiums.
And, of course, as an incentive to forego preventative and/or maintenance health care so the laws of supply and demand can work their magic on an inelastic health care market.
Svensker
@kay:
Boy, are you dense. All you have to do is cut taxes and we will all be rich! Didn’t you get the memo?
kay
@El Cid:
It’s like frivolous lawsuits. It’s frivolous use of health care.
The problem is all these people, doing things….them and their alleged problems.
MagicPanda
@Corner Stone: You forgot “clean sheet of paper”
kay
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Right. I get the mechanism. My problem is with how high a deductible we’re talking about.
Catastrophic expense means one thing to someone who makes 20,000 and another thing entirely to someone who makes 200,000.
If they can’t make the payment on the hospital bill, their wages get garnished, unless they file bankruptcy, and then we’re back at square one. Worse than square one, because they also purchased an insurance policy.
Midnight Marauder
@Corner Stone:
Ahem. What about “CLEAN SHEET OF PAPER!”, good sir?
SIA
@MagicPanda: The phrase drove me nuts. We had a clean piece of paper a year ago. Now it has some stuff on it. Deal.
/silent scream
mcc
I think the “clean sheet of paper” is the Republican health care plan.
Corner Stone
@Midnight Marauder: @MagicPanda
It’s funny because that didn’t stick with me at all. Maybe it went subliminal on my ass. Hold on a second cuz I took notes during the summit…nah, these are too messy let me just get a clean sheet of paper.
…
…
oh.my.god.
Corner Stone
@Just Some Fuckhead:
This is how we will become good purchasers, just as Uncle Dr. Tom Coburn suggests is the goal of all this jabbering.
les
@Dr. Morpheus:
Dr., in light of your comment, you may enjoy this.
geg6
Snuffalupagus needs to die now. On one hand…and on the other… Gawd, I hate that shit.
FlipYrWhig
Why does Luntz think “clean sheet of paper” is so much more effective than “start over” or “blank slate” or “fresh start”? I can’t imagine the focus groups dramatically preferring that many more syllables.
DBrown
Best health care in the world (false, unless you add) that people with money can buy.
I just got the bill for a blood test; the testing place charge $1000.00; my insurance paid $52.00 and my share is $9.32 … great deal BUT if you are not insured guess how much you pay. This is fucking robbery of the poor. If I even had to pay the insurance share too, big deal but why are the poor charged the $1000? This system is the worst anyone could ever put together and is a ripoff of our society. This system is INSANE! The wealthy (or just well off) get all the breaks and the poor get SCREWED! That is not health care anyone should accept – the system is terrible.
nwithers
@mcc:
The clean sheet of paper is obviously the republican plan for Healthcare.
“Boring, White and Dead”
kay
@Dreggas:
1200 a year you could do, 100 dollars a month, that isn’t that high a deductible, but what happens after that?
I think the policy that goes along with it has to be really affordable, and cover everything, or you’re just paying out of pocket 99% of the time and paying for an insurance policy.
Martin
@Just Some Fuckhead: Well, HSAs were never designed to deal with critical care, and they’re hamstrung by a market that is relatively unfair due to insurance deals.
The main premise was that most mundane health care should be paid out of pocket, just like we pay car repairs and home repairs and pretty much everything else out of pocket, where you shop around. The problem is the medical industry doesn’t work that way for the most part, so if you’re wandering around with your HSA card it can be really damn hard to find a doctor or pharmacist that won’t ream the shit out of you for not being part of some big group plan. It’s something of a catch-22.
Of course, the advocates of HSAs won’t permit the other side of the market to play out properly, which is moving critical and long-term care into a single payer system to free up the mundane medical market. Without the latter, the former will never work, and to be perfectly honest, I don’t think a comprehensive single-payer plan (which includes most regular medical stuff – appts when you have the flu, sprained wrist, and so on) can be made cost effective without really cranking down REALLY hard on either doctor/nurse salaries or by throttling access to the system so much that the bureaucratic cost of dealing with the exceptions would rocket the cost back up again.
But then you also come back to the same kinds of abuses of the HSAs that conservatives complain about food stamps – where I go in and ‘buy’ 10 boxes of catheters and return them for cash with a cut back to the store. You just can’t win.
El Cid
I like the idea that if we just all grew concerned (and / or were stricken with cancer and used catastrophic care as Barasso suggested) and used Angie’s list and shopped around, we’d be able to find a doctor to do our broken limb repair in a big 50% off sale, maybe if we waited until July 4th or something.
Dreggas
@kay:
Well the way I read it, it meant I would be paying for all my meds and any doctors visits out of my pocket until I hit the 1200 mark. Maybe it doesn’t sound bad but my prescriptions cost enough with my co-pay, it would be worse if I were to have to pay for them out of my own pocket.
kay
@Dreggas:
I don’t mean to minimize the expense to you. That’s one of my objections: that “expensive” is relative.
The deductibles here are higher. I have a guy whose kid broke a bone in his foot, just a normal break, but still, the father still did not meet the deductible.
So he’s pissed, because he’s socking money away every month, he has an insurance policy, and he still ended up with a huge bill he can’t pay.
geg6
As for framing in the MSM, Chip Reid just called this a big O WIN. And had a good story about how broken the system is small business people. If CBS is any indication, I think O is champ today.
El Cid
@kay: Well, see, according to Republicans today, if only the kid had had a catastrophic illness, then the Dad would have gotten off his ass and ‘shopped around’ and found some street vendor to fix his son’s broken foot for $17.85.
JMY
Somebody needs to challenge Kucinich for his seat….soon I hope
Jay B.
Really? Those are frank words.
No foolin’? Republicans are going to bitch about majority votes and things they don’t like?
Now of course, the President isn’t wrong. And he’s always good when he’s talking to Republicans, it seems. But good God almighty, what part of this wasn’t exactly true last year? What couldn’t the Democrats have done then, before the tea tantrums, to have made the same obvious point?
Republican obstructionism on health care wasn’t a secret. And, as always, the facts are on reform’s side. How was this not obvious? Why wait for the polls to tank and the opposition to define the issue?
CADoc
Some health policy people applaud high deductibles and HSA plans because they feel people should pay something out of pocket so they have some “skin in the game” but what I see in practice is that cash flow and fear of big bills cause patients to make decisions that aren’t in their best interests. They put off good cost effective prevention and skimp on medications. Last week I spent days trying to convince a women in her 60’s that when you pee blood and the urine test shows it wasn’t due to an infection, you need tests to make sure it wasn’t due to cancer. Just crossing your fingers and hoping doesn’t work, but many people are forced financially to do just that.
jenniebee
@El Cid: They did better than that. They essentially told the American people that, given their druthers, they’d eliminate Medicare and Medicaid and put everybody on catastrophic insurance (if that) because if each of us is only getting the health care we can pay for in cash, we obviously won’t have a fiscal crisis in health care anymore. QED.
Just Some Fuckhead
I think the solution is another public forum with Republicans.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Jay B.: You are the king of Monday morning quarterbacks here dude. Why do you live in the past other than to torture yourself and us a little with all the coulda woulda shoulda wanking. It’s done and looks quite like lesson learned for obama and dems. And you may even be right to a degree. So the fuck what.
Nobody has a playbook on this shit, especially with reforming HC. We are in the here and now and it looks as good as ever that this will get done where it never has before despite the best efforts of democrats for 60 plus years. Hell, even fuckhead has his muzzle of stoopid on today, at least to a degree.
I realize you are likely just howling at the moon for whatever your real reasons are, but give it rest why dontcha. And when a fixed bill gets passed by the House in a few weeks. You can tune up yer hissy fit engine to full whine for the next bill on the queue/
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Preferably a Roman style one involving lots of very large and very hungry lions.
They are all Christians, right?
joes527
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
Trying to parse …
Does “despite the best efforts of democrats” refer back to “this will get done?” ;-)
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@joes527: Something like that.
eta sometimes phrases have two meanings when there’s a bussell in your hedgerow.
Sanka
I know right? It’s not like they have the in depth healthcare experience and the “expertise” on 1/5th of the economy like Nancy Pelosi or Barack Obama do…..seriously…
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Sanka:
Your experts all got wedgies today. Again.
Dreggas
@kay:
I know, and it’s ridiculous. I am still stuck on a plan that has a 500 deductible, not as odious as the other one, but it only applies in certain circumstances.
If you ask me the worst insurance scheme in this country though, is dental insurance. They only cover x amount a year while the cost of work is pretty high and we get screwed on it.
Martin
@jenniebee: They didn’t even include the catastrophic insurance. Ryan’s plan was to convert Medicare into a tax credit program, so everyone over 65 would be out shopping for insurance, or have to keep their annual medical expenses under the $11K or so credit cap.
eemom
@geg6:
I’m deliberating whether to click on Chris Cilizza’s list of “winners and losers.” Curious, but Cilizza is such a typical little Milbank-wannabe WaPo drone.
jenniebee
@Martin: Are you saying that it’s not a good idea to turn the target demographic for Publisher’s Clearinghouse out to comparison shop for health insurance?
Martin
@Dreggas: Most dental costs are preventable. That’s why the deductibles. $100 per filling is supposed to be an incentive to floss, which is pretty cheap to do.
John S.
I wish these damn wisdom teeth were…
Martin
@John S.: Well, not all, but usually coverage of wisdom teeth is a higher % since it’s considered a surgical procedure.
Malron
The Great Orange Satan has a post on the front page from Dave Waldman saying the Progressive Caucus signed on to pass Obama’s plan yesterday.
I expect an avalanche of “they sold us out” blog posts from the Jane Hamshers of the Left any moment now…
Nellcote
@FlipYrWhig:
Dog whistle for KKKlean sheets.
Jay B.
That’s funny. Scores of us here have been critical in real time about this endlessly stupid process. In fact, and this is actually an example of a sort, this is the “bully pulpit” for the President. Something we’ve been told is useless and can never work. It might be too late, but this kind of posturing might have helped last year when they were meeting with other health care stakeholders. That said, Obama is actually doing something we thought would be great to do and which the “realists” here thought would be useless. And now you’re, what?
Moreover, I’m not the only person who thinks this fetish of “bipartisan” solutions has been fruitless. And now, after months and months and months, we’re finally at “Republicans have to come to grips or else it will pass without them”?
We have to figure Obama isn’t delusional, so what’s the long game here? To make Republicans look like the obstructionists they’ve been since he took the oath? Once again, it looks like the bloggers who thought the President had to take the fight to the Republicans were right from the start. Which is the exact opposite of Monday Morning quarterbacking.
They fucking well did, or they should have. Jesus Christ, how do you think politics works? Just a bunch of shit that happens? How can you not plan out an approach and then have a backup plan when that doesn’t work. And then a few more after that.
Maybe Obama pulled the Democrats’ fat from the fire on HCR today. I sure hope so. But what this has done has shown me all of the wasted time and stupid political decisions that have been made to date.
Nellcote
I think the saddest part was the semi-coverage by the cables. I was hoping they would just show the meetup and save commentary until the breaks or the end. The goopers keep saying “the american people don’t like the bill”. I think most americans don’t even know what’s in thedamn bill and was hoping that might change some after today. Oh well, teevee never fails to dissappoint.
John S.
The trouble with this notion is that when the problems on deck are:
1) Reducing the costs
2) Improving quality
3) Not adding to the nation’s debt
You only get to pick two. There is absolutely no scenario where you can have all three. It’s the same Rule of Three that applies to products/services with regards to 1) Good 2) Fast and 3) Cheap.
The Democrats have decided to go with #1 and #2, thereby eliminating the third option. The Republicans of course have decided that #3 is the most important thing EVER, and therefore all of their plans either exclude #1 or #2.
There is no magic plan that can achieve all three.
mclaren
The HCR summit is like a wedding. Lieberman and Nelson and the rest are the gang rapists who come in after the wedding and rape the bride.
That doesn’t happen during the wedding — only after.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@mclaren:
Nice analogy there Mclaren. I think now though it is time for your shot.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Jay B.: Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah .
YAWN
kay
@Nellcote:
I honestly feel as if most of media are downright hostile to health care reform. It comes across as this jaded disregard, or like they’re picking up this heavy burden and being forced to discuss something complicated, almost against their will.
They keep going to the horserace because this 1. does not concern them, personally, and 2. bores them.
I personally think they don’t give a shit because they all have health insurance.
Plus, it’s hard to figure out and it can be dead-dull.
The reporting has been uniformly dreadful. Americans don’t know anything about the bills, because no one reports on the bills.
Jager
The good Bro in Law had gall bladder surgery just before Thanksgiving, he has as good Insurance as you can buy. There were complications, infection, bleeding all kinds of nasty shit. He was in intensive care for 5 days, in the hospital for ten. He had all kinds of specialists, tests and everything else they can do to you in the medical environment…his share when everything was figured out and billed…31k. Good thing he has a good job and isn’t old, poor, underemployed, etc, etc, etc,
Upthread, someone mentioned dental insurance…the $1,500 really helps when you have to replace a 3 tooth bridge with implants and the new bridgework…total cost; 4k for the implants and 3,400 for the bridge. The joys of having played hockey before the cages!
NovShmozKaPop
@Uloborus:
Maybe he’s doing it more now that he’s getting a bit frustrated, or maybe it takes careful listening. It’s a thing of beauty, isn’t it?
No Joy in Mudville
The best I can say for the Republicans is Boehner must be an inspiration to people who like the color orange.
I’d love to see an in-depth psychological study of the mechanisms involved in structuring one’s denial in such a way that any Republican today can be considered anything but an unbelievably stupid waste of DNA.
In other words, how the hell can anyone support any of those guys?
@John S.:
While I think the general principle you espouse is often true, I’m not sure in this case, i.e., American health care, that your statement is correct, at least in theory. Unfortunately, moving from theory to reality involves our elected officials, and that makes things a lot harder (as in probably impossible, because of the generally disastrous quality of the personnel involved).
But with better leaders and representatives, I’m reasonably confident we could create a system that would do all three. Of course, once you choose 1) and 2), 3) becomes more difficult, but improving the system the right way should save us lots and lots of money. Getting rid of private insurance companies saves a bundle. So does using a single payer system to lower drug prices. By switching from a system that relies on the ER to one that emphasizes preventive care, the savings should be substantial.
Another major problem with our health care system is that there is a lot of wasteful, unnecessary care. By eliminating a significant amount of that waste, once again we should 1) reduce costs, 2) improve quality, and 3) not add to our debt.
In the end, if we had the people to design and run the system, I’m pretty sure we could accomplish all three. The only place magic would enter the picture would be in transforming our current legislative houses into effective bodies filled with sane, intelligent, and honest senators and representatives. To achieve that, absent magic, we’d need a completely different electorate — and now we’re back to magic again.
Given the mess of a plan we’re likely to get, you’re probably right that all three together are impossible.
(Only in the US would a single-payer system be considered “magic.”)
NovShmozKaPop
@Zifnab:
I’m not 100% sure of this, and you may be able to find a quote to prove this wrong, but while he has said many times that it would be a good idea, I can’t remember him saying that he would fight to the death for it. I’ve always had the feeling that he has resisted being pinned down on the issue.
No Joy in Mudville
@Uloborus:
The sad thing is that he’s so smooth doing it, I don’t think the “fuck you” part is fully appreciated by lots of Americans who are used to people screaming at each other.
I thought the best part of today’s summit was Obama’s response to liars like Boehner. For my part, I thought the more polite he was doing it, the more effective it was. But I talked to a couple of neighbors and Obama’s message seemed to have soared over their heads, because it was so politely delivered.
JGabriel
No Joy in Mudville:
Ask, and ye shall receive: The Authoritarians (Online Edition) by Bob Altemeyer.
Well, at least it’s an in-depth psychological study, though you still might come away thinking of today’s GOPers as “an unbelievably stupid waste of DNA”. It was the primary source for John Dean’s Conservatives Without Conscience.
.
Um Yeah
Ok I am not sure if Republicans know this (stupid or evil?) but the only country I know where HSA’s work is Singapore. It works because the government covers anything remotely catastrophic.
No Joy in Mudville
@JGabriel:
University of Manitoba? Canadian? But they live in igloos and drive dog sleds, so what do they know?
(More seriously, thanks for the link, I’ll take a look. My assumption is that nothing is going to change my mind about the stupid waste of DNA.)