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You are here: Home / Guns Don’t Kill People

Guns Don’t Kill People

by John Cole|  February 28, 20104:45 pm| 93 Comments

This post is in: General Stupidity

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I will never, ever, ever understand the American gun fetish, and I spent a number of years in the military:

A gun instructor accidently shot a student in the foot Saturday during an NRA class to receive certification to carry a concealed weapon, Orlando police said.

Robert Frauman Jr., 50, was taken to Florida Hospital after instructor Michael Phillips’ firearm discharged about 11:45 a.m., police said.

Phillips, 32, could not be reached for comment. The accident happened at Summit Church, located in a former movie theater near the Fashion Square mall.

Probably a bunch of people getting guns because Obama is going to take ’em all away.

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Reader Interactions

93Comments

  1. 1.

    Comrade Mary

    February 28, 2010 at 4:51 pm

    And don’t forget this classic: “This is an unloaded gun. I’m the only one in this class professional enough to handle it …”.

  2. 2.

    Yutsano

    February 28, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    That’s not the worst part John. The worst part is the guy who got his foot shot WILL STILL GET HIS CONCEALED WEAPONS PERMIT. Oh and there will be no ramifications for either the instructor or the church. Gotta love the Second Amendment.

  3. 3.

    Denton

    February 28, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    So did the student get his certification for his efforts?

  4. 4.

    KG

    February 28, 2010 at 4:54 pm

    There are so many interesting things in that snippet… an NRA instructor (accidentally) shooting a student. The class being conducted at a church. The fact that the church use to be a movie theater. It’s almost funny, really.

    As for the gun fetish, it’s all the stories of the old west and pioneers, and revolutionaries (the good kind, circa 1776) and rebels (see the South, circa 1860). We’ve all grown up with those stories, for some, it’s a big part of the idea of “who we are.” At least that’s my pop-anthropological answer.

  5. 5.

    Cat Lady

    February 28, 2010 at 4:55 pm

    I will never, ever, ever understand the American gun fetish

    Gun = penis.

    You’re welcome.

  6. 6.

    gbear

    February 28, 2010 at 4:55 pm

    The accident happened at Summit Church, located in a former movie theater near the Fashion Square mall.

    That sentence says far too much about life in America now.

  7. 7.

    MikeJ

    February 28, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    @Yutsano: Why would you deny the permit to the victim? The sad thing is the idiot instructor has already proven he can’t be trusted with a gun and will probably be allowed to carry one.

  8. 8.

    gbear

    February 28, 2010 at 4:58 pm

    So did the student get his certification for his efforts?

    He got a voucher to attend the class again for free once he recovers.

  9. 9.

    Xenos

    February 28, 2010 at 4:58 pm

    I can understand why someone might want the permit, and I can get that there is a risk of some fool teacher firing a gun by accident. But in a church? What kind of church invites people to bring their guns in?

    Who do they pray to, the Prince of Peacemaker?

  10. 10.

    Bob K

    February 28, 2010 at 4:58 pm

    When I was a kid and my father would get really really pissed off at me he would say “You’re too dumb to exist.” I really think as a nation we’re pretty much there.

  11. 11.

    Thomas

    February 28, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    I own three guns myself but I don’t understand people who treat them as more than a hobby. I feel about guns as I do playing the guitar, reading comic books or watching sports. A few people make a living with these things, most of us don’t and can’t honestly consider them essential to our day to day lives. I also for the life of me don’t understand people who treat owning them as a matter of personal safety. Are you not statistically more likely to shoot yourself or someone you love in an accident then to shoot someone who meant you or a loved one harm.

  12. 12.

    Irony

    February 28, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    Bizarre is reading this post and looking up at the top of the page and seeing a banner ad for “Front Sight Firearms Training Institute.” I know – gotta pay the rent, just sayin’

  13. 13.

    SpotWEld

    February 28, 2010 at 5:04 pm

    There’s this weird push for the mentality of “I must have many guns”… arguably you only “need” one gun. (maybe two if you want to argue a long gun for hunting, and a handgun for self defense). A well maintained gun should last a lifetime (multiple lifetimes since they can be handed down in fully working order over generations.)

    As near as I can tell, the only people pushing the myth of “the scarcity of guns” are the people selling guns.

    I still expect a glut of 2nd hand guns to hit the market.

  14. 14.

    SteveinSC

    February 28, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    Yeah, and the irony is, in this state where huntin’, fishin’ and fuckin’ are the main pastimes, with more guns than shoes, they are afraid of incarcerating a few camel fuckers. Go figure.

  15. 15.

    Josh Huaco

    February 28, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    In an individualistic culture like ours, a gun is a talisman of safety, independence, and potency. At least that’s always been my idea of where the fetish comes from.

    There were gun shops here in Texas that were playing ads after the 08 election, encouraging people to buy one WHILE YOU STILL CAN (caps=exact words)

    EDIT: I don’t necessarily have a problem with Bubbas and guns (caveat: as long as they’re not stocking up for a race war or something). It’s part of the culture, and familiarity helps. The soccer moms who are running out and buying a piece because they think they’ll have to gun down someone in a Chili’s someday, those are the ones who worry me.

  16. 16.

    thejoz

    February 28, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    I proudly and happily own a handgun for target shooting and self defense, regardless of what statistics are out there.

    But I have always considered the NRA a bunch of whackjobs, and I too also do not understand the fetishization of firearm ownership.

    Sadly I am not surprised by this or any other story similar to it, which is really unfortunate in many ways.

  17. 17.

    smiley

    February 28, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    Just so happens this was in today’s newspaper:

    When xxx wrote that only the police and our military should be allowed to carry hand guns, I as a former police officer felt Mr. xxx needs to learn more about our culture.
    From the earliest time in history, we as citizens have carried hand guns and long guns for not only our own protection but for the protection of others, whether it be at home, or in the street. If we surrender our rights to carry guns, then the only people who will have guns will be the criminals that our law enforcement officers can not protect us from 24/7.
    If all the citizens who can legally carry a firearm did, then criminals would think twice before committing an armed robbery or any other criminal act. When I, as a certified police officer, was injured in the line of duty and then fired from the department due to my injuries (preventing me from ever returning to duty because of those injuries), my carrying of a firearm became as limited as any other citizen.
    Some members of my department feel that – even though I was an under-cover narcotics agent for a while – the chance of someone attacking me is limited.
    So, even though I have a legal weapons permit, my area of carrying is limited. Yet criminals can and most do carry a weapon everywhere they go.
    I feel that every citizen who can obtain a weapons permit should carry their weapon every place they go with the exception of bars or night clubs.
    And if a person with a permit gets caught carrying a weapon while under the influence of alcohol or drugs, they should lose their right to carry a weapon or to obtain a permit.

    A little bitter, a little paranoid, and a little wingnut.

  18. 18.

    serge

    February 28, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    I’m assuming that Swinging Dick Cheney wasn’t involved?

  19. 19.

    Incertus (Brian)

    February 28, 2010 at 5:16 pm

    Florida. Not shocked. (We can smell our own.)

  20. 20.

    Kryptik

    February 28, 2010 at 5:20 pm

    I honestly don’t mind gun ownership. I just find myself amazed at how quickly people balk over reasonable gun regulation stuff, like ensuring it’d be VERY difficult for people with a criminal felony record and such to get guns, that kind of stuff.

    The fact that states have made a proactive attempt to loosen gun laws further, in reaction to Draconian Gun Law from Obama that will never come, just makes me depressed.

  21. 21.

    bystander

    February 28, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    I own an array of handguns and long guns. It’s all about the zen of target shooting, and physics/ballistics of reloading for me. If I were a whole lot younger, and wanted to train for a winter sport, it would be the biathlon. That said, the minute someone wants to get belligerent or defensive about the 2nd amendment, I am done with that soul. Don’t even want to share a shooting range with them. A defensive belligerence is a lousy attribute for a gun handler, and a safety risk to anyone around them.

    As it would turn out, an awful lot of NRA members aren’t quite as wacked out as the NRA leadership is.

  22. 22.

    Corner Stone

    February 28, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    I will never, ever, ever understand the American gun fetish

    Where’s the fetish part? In this story of an accident, where’s the fetishism?

  23. 23.

    JGabriel

    February 28, 2010 at 5:32 pm

    Bob K:

    When I was a kid and my father would get really really pissed off at me he would say “You’re too dumb to exist.” I really think as a nation we’re pretty much there.

    I think I prefer Michael Moore’s conclusion in Bowling for Columbine — not that we’re “too dumb to exist”, or that guns are inherently evil and lead to murder (c.f., Canada’s low mirder rate vs. its high rate of gun ownership), but that too large a portion of the U.S. population is too crazy to possess them.

    .

  24. 24.

    The Sheriff's A Ni-

    February 28, 2010 at 5:32 pm

    I think the paper just yesterday said Ohio just set a state record for concealed carry. ’cause you know that Obama’s Gonna Take All Yer Guns So Buy As Many As You Can Now!. (This message brought to you by the NRA – No, Really, That’s Not The Firearms Industry Hand Up Our Ass, Honest.)

  25. 25.

    eemom

    February 28, 2010 at 5:32 pm

    the other day I was waiting for a prescription in the drugstore when I noticed that a dorky-looking guy wearing jeans, also at the prescription counter, had a gun in his belt.

    He didn’t look dangerous, but WTF?? I scoped out my escape route just in case he was, in fact, a homicidal maniac. I also thought about asking him why he was carrying it, but refrained, also on the theory that there was a greater than 0% chance that he was a homicidal maniac and I do have kids to raise.

    Much to my astonishment, no one else seemed to even NOTICE……
    and there were lots of people, including little children, around.

    Evidently it is legal to carry a gun in this manner here in Virginia, the marketplace of the northeast for all things gun, but it still freaked the crap out of me. Why would anyone need/want to carry a gun in a
    fucking drugstore in a suburban neighborhood?

  26. 26.

    JGabriel

    February 28, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    Corner Stone:

    Where’s the fetish part?

    The apparent popularity of concealed weapons class in a church kind of screams fetish , in both the Marxist and Freudian definitions.

    .

  27. 27.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    February 28, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    I will never, ever, ever understand the American gun fetish

    I blame Barney Fife for making gunplay seem so cool back in this country’s formative years.

  28. 28.

    Svensker

    February 28, 2010 at 5:36 pm

    Grew up in a hunting family, men (only) who learned to shoot when they were kids and had it drilled into them how to be careful, how to act with a gun. These were serious guys. One day my uncle, who was a great hunter (and a great guy) was showing my brother his “unloaded” rifle. It was loaded. The shot missed my brother by centimeters.

    Then I worked for a pistol manufacturer in the 70s. The gun designer was an ace gunsmith, old hand with all kinds of weapons, in his 60s. One his way to a demonstration of the gun, he was checking an “unloaded” pistol in the parking lot before going in to the show. Fortunately he only shot the trunk of his car, missed the gas tank and his friend.

    Even really careful, knowledgeable folks can get careless with guns. Sometimes they also get lucky.

    Strict regulation seems a really good idea to me, seeing as how most folks aren’t careful and knowledgeable.

  29. 29.

    PaulW

    February 28, 2010 at 5:37 pm

    They’re teaching weapon safety at a CHURCH?

  30. 30.

    Corner Stone

    February 28, 2010 at 5:39 pm

    @JGabriel:
    Not sure how the location of the CHL course makes it a fetish.

  31. 31.

    M. Bouffant

    February 28, 2010 at 5:40 pm

    Guns don’t kill people. People w/ guns kill people.

  32. 32.

    Corner Stone

    February 28, 2010 at 5:42 pm

    @M. Bouffant: And people w/ cars, and people w/ alcohol, and people w/…

  33. 33.

    andrewsomething

    February 28, 2010 at 5:45 pm

    I will never, ever, ever understand the American gun fetish

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLzo9pOXa-s

  34. 34.

    Snarky Pickles

    February 28, 2010 at 5:45 pm

    My late father-in-law was a rare bird: retired military, big-time gun collector, lifetime membership in the NRA, who thought what we really needed in this country was stricter gun control laws. I miss him.

    Each of his four kids was taught how to properly handle the guns. (First rule: don’t.) When he passed away several years ago, none of them, now all adults with their own families, wanted them. Don’t want them in our homes, don’t want them where they can get back on the street, ever. So they’re being gradually removed by the executor, one or two at a time, to be melted down. They served their usefulness; time to let ’em go.

  35. 35.

    Mnemosyne

    February 28, 2010 at 5:45 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Not sure how the location of the CHL course makes it a fetish.

    Because of stuff like this.

    No, it’s not a joke. Go to the website that created it.

  36. 36.

    PaulW

    February 28, 2010 at 5:46 pm

    @eemom:

    Evidently it is legal to carry a gun in this manner here in Virginia, the marketplace of the northeast for all things gun, but it still freaked the crap out of me. Why would anyone need/want to carry a gun in a
    fucking drugstore in a suburban neighborhood?

    This was at my former workplace, a library. A staffer noticed a guy at one of the public computers with a concealed machete inside his flannel shirt. Entire staff freaked and they called the sheriff’s office. After a few tense minutes the cops show and they interview the guy. Turns out he’s a yard maintenance guy and the machete is standard shrub-clearing gear for his crew. He didn’t even think of it as a weapon. Problem was/is the libraries here are considered ‘safe zones’ akin to schools. The sheriff’s office I think took his name down but didn’t arrest him.

    It’s not just the guns you gotta worry about. But that’s the problem: it’s the person, not the tool, you gotta worry about and we can’t tell which guy is gonna be the threat.

    Caveat: I do personally believe that ‘guns don’t kill people, but guns make it too damned easy.’ But I understand the complexity of the issue.

  37. 37.

    Snarky Pickles

    February 28, 2010 at 5:53 pm

    @PaulW:

    I do personally believe that ‘guns don’t kill people, but guns make it too damned easy.’

    Well put.

  38. 38.

    cat48

    February 28, 2010 at 5:54 pm

    “The watchword for gun owners is stay ready,” said Wayne LaPierre, chief executive of the National Rifle Association. “We have had some successes, but we know that the first chance Obama gets, he will pounce on us.”

    I think paranoid stmts like this only increase the intensity of feeling one has to stock up immediately. The gun manufacturers and ammo producers love this……the ammo mfgs. have added a shift and production goes round the clock/3 shifts. They also have to make ammo for the troops so they are extremely busy.

    All adds up to extreme paranoia on the Right.

  39. 39.

    eemom

    February 28, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    @PaulW:
    @Snarky Pickles:

    yes, that is it exactly. And when it’s too damn easy to get guns that make it too damn easy to kill people…..

  40. 40.

    Dan Robinson

    February 28, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    Being a soldier cured me of my gun fetish. Don’t have one now.

    The accident happened at Summit Church, located in a former movie theater near the Fashion Square mall.

    Which 9 would Jesus carry concealed?

  41. 41.

    Nellcote

    February 28, 2010 at 6:11 pm

    @PaulW:

    They’re teaching weapon safety at a CHURCH?

    Considering how many people have been shot in churches in the past year, it’s not altogether unreasonable…if you look at it from a certain angle…and disregard the whole Jesus as the Prince of Peace thing.

  42. 42.

    Nellcote

    February 28, 2010 at 6:15 pm

    @smiley:

    And if a person with a permit gets caught carrying a weapon while under the influence of alcohol or drugs, they should lose their right to carry a weapon or to obtain a permit.

    I can agree with that bit anyway.

  43. 43.

    Mike G

    February 28, 2010 at 6:21 pm

    A student gets accidentally shot in an NRA concealed-weapon-permit class being held in a fundie church that used to be a movie theater, next to a mall in Florida.

    It would be difficult to pack more white-trash, Ugly American stereotypes into a single news sentence.

  44. 44.

    John T

    February 28, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    And people w/ cars, and people w/ alcohol, and people w/…

    Cars are designed to safely transport people. If people with cars kill other people in accidents, it’s because something went horribly wrong.

    Guns are designed to kill people. If people with guns kill other people, it’s because they have successfully used a gun for its primary intended purpose.

  45. 45.

    Kyle

    February 28, 2010 at 6:36 pm

    “We know that the first chance Obama gets, he will pounce on us.”

    “We know that right-wingers are paranoid, easily-led authoritarian followers and dumber than dirt, and that scaring them into spending hundreds of millions of dollars with the gun manufacturers that run the NRA is easier than stampeding sheep off a cliff,” LaPierre should have added.

  46. 46.

    ruemara

    February 28, 2010 at 6:37 pm

    @Mnemosyne:
    uh, wow. Just wow.
    Wow.

    I love weapons. Swords, staves, knives, old fashioned pistols. So I have a collection of them. At no point do I feel the urge to carry one while I run out for a coffee. The most they do is accentuate my elf wench costume at nerd conventions.

    @Cat Lady:
    THIS.

    @gbear:
    AND THIS.

    And seriously, a church that was a theatre in a mall? I may have to flee this land before the madness takes hold.

  47. 47.

    TheWatcher

    February 28, 2010 at 6:38 pm

    It happened in Florida. That figures.

    Two months ago I was driving down the Florida Turnpike, when I passed a Ford F-650 towing a jeep with a LOADED 50 caliber machine gun. True story.

    Gun fetish=penis fetish.

  48. 48.

    ppcli

    February 28, 2010 at 6:43 pm

    Weapons classes in a church, eh? I expect the pistols are made from recycled plowshares.

  49. 49.

    Yutsano

    February 28, 2010 at 6:54 pm

    @ruemara:

    The most they do is accentuate my elf wench costume at nerd conventions.

    I have to admit it, if you showed up as an elf wench with antique pistols, that would be all kinds of awesome.

  50. 50.

    Mjaum

    February 28, 2010 at 6:57 pm

    The US:
    You’re allowed to carry weapons in public, in some places even concealed such.
    Getting a gun is easy, by law.
    And millions of your citizens do not have basic health-care, so people with mental illnesses walk around and, untreated, get worse.
    (Might also add: And the right-wing noise-machine loves making people more and more scared.)

    It’s a wonder your cities are still standing.

  51. 51.

    Corner Stone

    February 28, 2010 at 7:03 pm

    @John T: If there is one thing history teaches us, it’s that human beings are very inventive.

  52. 52.

    jrg

    February 28, 2010 at 7:08 pm

    Guns are designed to kill people.

    Really? I’ve only used a gun to kill waterfowl. Guess I’m doing something wrong.

    I do find a lot of gun fetishists to be hypocritical, though. If you’re going to argue that outlawing handguns or assault rifles is a slippery slope leading to Nazi Germany, you should be more concerned about torture and locking someone up without trial.

  53. 53.

    jody

    February 28, 2010 at 7:10 pm

    You’re absolutely correct John.

    The number of otherwise reasonable people I know that are CONVINCED Obama is determined to revoke the second amendment and take away all their guns is staggering.

    The number of unreasonable dipshits I know that are convinced of the same is also staggering, but unsurprising.

  54. 54.

    Shawnzilla

    February 28, 2010 at 7:20 pm

    “England, where no one has guns; fourteen deaths. United States — and I think you know how we feel about guns; whoo! I’m getting’ a stiffy — 23,000 deaths from handguns. But there’s no connection, and you’d be a fool and a communist to make one.” – Bill Hicks

  55. 55.

    gbear

    February 28, 2010 at 7:23 pm

    @Snarky Pickles:

    Just have to say that I love your comment.

    @jrg:

    Hunting rifles have their place, but what kinds of hunting are handguns used for? I gotta agree with Ronnie Van Zant when it comes to handguns.

  56. 56.

    wasabi gasp

    February 28, 2010 at 7:28 pm

    Maybe the guy was also a dance instructor.

  57. 57.

    Corner Stone

    February 28, 2010 at 7:31 pm

    @wasabi gasp: Nobody puts baby in a corner.

  58. 58.

    Pasquinade

    February 28, 2010 at 7:42 pm

    Gun control? We need bullet control! I think every bullet should cost 5,000 dollars. Because if a bullet cost five thousand dollar, we wouldn’t have any innocent bystanders. – Chris Rock

    Somebody just proved the Nuge wrong…

    There are hundreds of millions of gun owners in this country, and not one of them will have an accident today. The only misuse of guns comes in environments where there are drugs, alcohol, bad parents, and undisciplined children. Period. – Ted Nugent

  59. 59.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    February 28, 2010 at 8:12 pm

    If you plan on storming one some day then what better place than a church to get firearms training?

    @Svensker:

    The first thing I was taught about firearms is that they are to be handled at all times as if they are loaded and the safety is off. You never point a firearm in the direction of any living being unless you intend to pull the trigger, and you never put your finger on a trigger until you are ready to shoot. No exceptions or excuses.

    The men who taught me this never shot anyone they were training, nor themselves. Firearms are a serious matter, not something to just decide to go get because the president is black. Stupid shit happens when idiots have firearms and right now a lot of idiots have firearms.

    I’m waiting for one of these ‘John Wayne’ pistol-packing types to be standing in line when the crazy guy behind them grabs their gun and goes gonzo. I have no doubt that one of these days it’s going to happen. These gun owners don’t have eyes in the back of their heads and the best way to attack someone is from behind. Nothing like having a weapon handy when you decide to do so.

    Some criminals only need the opportunity to present itself to commit the crime. The same goes for the insane.

  60. 60.

    kid bitzer

    February 28, 2010 at 8:19 pm

    this never would have happened if it were not for these crazy unconstitutional laws that restrict concealed carry.

    if that student had been allowed to exercise his constitutional rights to begin with, he would have returned fire as soon as the instructor shot at him.

    “shoot me in the foot, punk? you got another thing coming!” blam, blam.

    furthermore, if the student had been allowed to shoot the instructor, in accordance with his constitutional rights to shoot back at people who shoot you in the foot, then the bullet would have traveled back in time and deterred the instructor from shooting him in the first place.

    because the only thing that caused the instructor to accidentally shoot the student in the foot was the fact that the student was unarmed.

    more guns, less accidents. it’s as simple as that.

  61. 61.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    February 28, 2010 at 8:22 pm

    @Pasquinade:

    Shorter Nuge: “I endorse the killing of abortion doctors.”

    Nuge can go FOADIAF, the guy is fucking nuts. He’s what happens when you mix stupidity, drugs and wingnuttery in copious quantities.

  62. 62.

    Josh Huaco

    February 28, 2010 at 8:42 pm

    @DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal):

    Nuge can go FOADIAF, the guy is fucking nuts. He’s what happens when you mix stupidity, drugs and wingnuttery in copious quantities.

    I think fornication, not drugs, was/is the Nuge’s chief vice. But I agree with you insofar that an identity as a cock-of-the-walk-crazy-sex-guns-and-rock’n’roll guy is great as an entertainer, but it makes you an asshole in real life. And I say that as a fan of his music who saw him perform here in Waco a couple years ago.

  63. 63.

    dmhlt

    February 28, 2010 at 9:34 pm

    Hell, no – guns don’t kill people.

    BULLETS kill people!

  64. 64.

    Svensker

    February 28, 2010 at 9:37 pm

    @DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal):

    The first thing I was taught about firearms is that they are to be handled at all times as if they are loaded and the safety is off. You never point a firearm in the direction of any living being unless you intend to pull the trigger, and you never put your finger on a trigger until you are ready to shoot. No exceptions or excuses.

    Yes, exactly. But the two times I know of personally where firearms were discharged accidentally were when they were being handled by experienced, serious experts. So imagine what happens when novices or numbskulls have firearms in their sweaty hands.

  65. 65.

    Chuck Butcher

    February 28, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    Funny how the same people who get a case of the ass about BushCo stomping on civil liberties in the name of security are all for it in this case. I don’t like either argument. And, I don’t like hypocricy.

    Ooooh a gun in the house is sooooo dangerous … but then your swimming pool is more likely to cause death or injury. Don’t like them, scared of them – then the answer is simple, don’t own one. Guns aren’t made to kill people, they’re made to accurately launch a small projectile. The target makes all the difference. Cars are made to carry things at speed – but they also can kill. They’re supposed to stay on the road, they’re supposed to be used responsibly – they’re not. So???

    Some of this shit differs from wingnuttery rhetoric in no measurable amount. Guns and penises? C’mon – demonization is a stupid game and the tool of those with no argument.

  66. 66.

    Zak44

    February 28, 2010 at 10:26 pm

    Aside from the fact that they burn the beans and use pretentious language to justify charging ridiculous prices, the fact they have apparently decided to bend over for Wayne “Lucky” LaPIerre and the whole damn gun lobby, here’s another reason to get your coffee anywhere but Starbucks:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/28/starbucks-gun-policy-refu_n_480062.html

    PS: I got a sense of what carrying a gun can do to you the first time I pulled sergeant of the guard in the Army and got to wear a .45 instead of carrying a rifle. I drew the weapon, strapped it on my pistol belt, and started heading down the street. I couldn’t have gone more than 20 or 30 yards when I suddenly realized I wasn’t walking normally. “Holy shit,” I said to myself, “I am swaggering like John fucking Wayne.” But the problem is, these guys believe they ARE John Wayne. Or whoever it is they fantasize about being.

  67. 67.

    Arclite

    February 28, 2010 at 10:59 pm

    John, I relate to your failure to understand.

    I love playing COD and BF2 and shooting virtual guns on my computer. And I even have a 6mm pellet gun (airsoft, I think they call it). They’re fun. But the idea of having a real gun? No thanks. I get the willies just thinking about the permanence an accident with one of those things can cause.

  68. 68.

    drillfork

    February 28, 2010 at 11:00 pm

    @eemom:

    Guns in Virginia you say?

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_guns___coffee

    I have no problem with hunters or target-shooters. But this open-carry bullshit is going to get a whole bunch of people killed.

    The sad part is, all these paranoid losers are quite wussy:

    “Dale Welch recently walked into a Starbucks in Virginia, handgun strapped to his waist, and ordered a banana Frappuccino with a cinnamon bun. He says the firearm drew a double-take from at least one customer, but not a peep from the baristas… Welch, a 71-year-old retired property manager who lives in Richmond, Va., doesn’t see any reason why he shouldn’t bear arms while he gets caffeinated. ‘I don’t know of anybody who would provide me with defense other than myself, so I routinely as a way of life carry a weapon — and that extends to my coffee shops,’ he said.”

    We really are back in the Old West. Fucking psycho…

  69. 69.

    Arclite

    February 28, 2010 at 11:03 pm

    @ Zak44
    The problem isn’t Starbucks, per se. It’s the open carry laws. Or at least open carry laws that permit open carry in retail stores. That just seems like an accident waiting to happen, what with the concentration of people in retail outlets. I wonder if they let open carry in bars?

  70. 70.

    TenguPhule

    March 1, 2010 at 12:04 am

    I wonder if they let open carry in bars?

    Only if the funeral parlor is next door.

  71. 71.

    Geoduck

    March 1, 2010 at 1:03 am

    @ruemara:

    It said the church/theater was NEAR the mall, not in it. There’s one of these in my town in Washington State; the theater re-located to a new bigger site (which is quite an improvement all around) and the church took over the old building.

    I do think the instructor have whatever permit he possesses revoked.

  72. 72.

    Cerberus

    March 1, 2010 at 1:39 am

    Agree with others upthread, talk with any wingnut for any amount of time and it becomes painfully obvious that guns are penis extenders. Guns are Hummers are wars against brown people, something to make their anxious masculinity feel soothed and catered to so they can view themselves as big tough dogs who couldn’t possibly be mistaken for women or gays.

    I blame toxic masculinity and the cultural pressure to constantly “prove” oneself by antagonizing everything deemed feminine and desperately fluff anything masculine.

    And sadly, right now, killing someone or having the power to kill someone is considered really big on the manliness scale so anxious men everywhere are falling over themselves to prove they’re more willing or able to kill someone than the next guy.

    Unfortunately for the rest of us, twitching men constantly paranoid that “someone” will “take away their masculinity” at any moment without warning (which is exactly what they’re talking about when they’re talking about “liberals taking their guns away”) are exactly the worst people to have guns (as scores of battered women, women’s health care volunteers, and pretty much every victim in most every mass shooting there has been* in this country can attest).

    *Seriously, look at the history of mass shootings and look at the origins. Almost all of them start with a guy trying to assert ownership of a girl after she dared leave him or snub him (LA fitness murders was about “them mocking him by refusing to date him”, Virginia Tech started when the guy’s girlfriend broke up with him because he was an abusive psycho, Unitarian church shooting was because he wanted to kill his ex-wife) or otherwise “get back at women” or defend the right to owning them (such as the big shoot-outs of the Texan cults, Dr. Tiller).

  73. 73.

    Cerberus

    March 1, 2010 at 1:40 am

    Huh, moderation. Weird. Oh well. Hopefully John’ll fish it out in the morning.

  74. 74.

    Ruckus

    March 1, 2010 at 2:51 am

    @Mjaum:
    It’s a wonder your cities are still standing.

    I imagine a lot of americans (like me for example) would agree with this. For the same reasons.

  75. 75.

    Hypnos

    March 1, 2010 at 5:37 am

    I don’t remember who mentioned the Nazis, but it is completely ridicolous that they would be brought up as an example of gun control.

    Gun ownership was forbidden in Germany in 1919 as a result of the Treaty of Versailles. In some cases, owning a gun could mean the death penalty.

    The law was considerably loosened in 1928, by the democratic Weimar government, with the ban being lifted and a system of licences being established. This is probably unrelated, but by then and for the following years Nazi and Communist militias regularly battled it out on the streets; it was this unrest that eventually led to the Nazi triumph at the ballot box.

    The law was revised again, in 1938, this time by the Nazi dictatorship. And again, gun restrictions were considerably loosened. Only Jews were forbidden ownership. In fact, one could say that gun control laws in Germany in the 20th century were most permissive during the Nazi dictatorship.

    Go figure.

  76. 76.

    Zak44

    March 1, 2010 at 6:07 am

    Arclite: Yes, but as the article points out, stores are within their rights to refuse admission. As two other chains–California Pizza Kitchen and Peet’s coffee–did in Virginia.

  77. 77.

    kay

    March 1, 2010 at 6:46 am

    You can’t use cars as a comparison.

    Automobile use is regulated out the ass.

    You have to be licensed, carry the license, have the car inspected (in many states) register the car and carry car insurance in every state.

    We regulate the driver and the automobile, in every state, and we damn sure force auto owners to insure against any damage they do to others.

    When gun owners are willing to do all that, they can use the automobile comparison. As it stands now, the two things are almost polar opposites in terms of regulation.

    We have a constitutional right to travel freely within this country. No one screams and yells that it’s a slippery slope to loss of that right when the state forces you to carry a driver’s license with a photo on it.

  78. 78.

    kay

    March 1, 2010 at 7:00 am

    In addition: title the car, using a unique number tied to that car, so any transfers of the car can be tracked and taxed, and buy tags every year, again so the car can be tracked and taxed and identified while going 70 miles an hour, by the trooper coming up behind you.

    When gun owners are willing to be regulated to the same extent automobile owners and drivers are, then we can talk about the gun-car comparison.

    There’s no comparison.

    Cars are dangerous and guns are dangerous, but only cars are regulated, and cars are regulated heavily. Many, many people cannot drive because cars and drivers are regulated.

  79. 79.

    DecidedFenceSitter

    March 1, 2010 at 8:01 am

    Friend works as a Waitress in Northern VA – has to deal with open carry more frequently than one would think. Generally from other patrons “He’s got a gun” “He’s allowed to have it out in the open.”

  80. 80.

    kay

    March 1, 2010 at 8:12 am

    @DecidedFenceSitter:

    I think I’d prefer open carry to concealed carry. We have concealed carry, but any business owner or government entity can use an opt-out clause, and post a sign forbidding entry with a gun.
    I have the sign, because the people who come to me are under a lot of stress, and we do a lot of mediation and negotiation, on really contentious and personal issues. If they’re too frightened to talk or deal with me without ready access to a firearm, they can find another lawyer.
    They leave the gun in the (unlocked) car.
    I tell them they may as well start donating arms to criminals, directly.

  81. 81.

    Karen

    March 1, 2010 at 9:05 am

    I don’t have time to read all the comments, so this may have been addressed already, but:

    A lot of churches are getting threats made daily. My frootloop husband has a CCW & he’s on the security team at our church. He’s also the one closest to our pastor because his reflexes are faster & he can handle himself in hand to hand. We’ve had arrests of several people, one of which had a trunk full of guns that were ready to be used against the pastor & members. There are also more violence prone men now that are intent to pursue their wives who have a bullshit (I say that because all it does is piss off the person it’s supposed to be protecting them from. Like the teacher in Washington state.) protective order out on them.

    Some of the people who have a CCW have valid reasons. The security team at our church is headed up by a member who happens to be a full time cop, so he knows what he’s doing.

    The people who have a CCW “because the 2nd amendment says I can” are the ones to stay away from. They will get that permit pulled by shooting someone mistakenly or by brandishing. Those are the nuts.

  82. 82.

    Darkness

    March 1, 2010 at 10:31 am

    “We won’t be having anything like that in our church in the future,” Lawley said.

    Why do the Fashion Square Mall Abandoned Movie Theater Church people hate America so much?

  83. 83.

    Sir Nose'D

    March 1, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    Slightly OT:

    Does anyone know gun ownership rates per 1000 among self-identified liberals vs. conservatives? I would suspect if you were not counting the number of guns, they would be pretty close to equal with a few caveats–you would need to statistically control for living in areas with gun control regulations, for example.

    I don’t get the whole gun fetish thing, either, except that it must make people who normally feel powerless feel empowered.

  84. 84.

    liberal

    March 1, 2010 at 12:09 pm

    @eemom:

    the other day I was waiting for a prescription in the drugstore when I noticed that a dorky-looking guy wearing jeans, also at the prescription counter, had a gun in his belt.

    This is why I’m against concealed carry. People who want to carry should be forced to display their weapons. That way, I can avoid having anything to do with them.

  85. 85.

    tde

    March 1, 2010 at 12:10 pm

    There’s this weird push for the mentality of “I must have many guns”… arguably you only “need” one gun. (maybe two if you want to argue a long gun for hunting, and a handgun for self defense). A well maintained gun should last a lifetime (multiple lifetimes since they can be handed down in fully working order over generations.)

    Whaaa?

    For duck/goose hunting you need a 12 ga shotgun capable of shooting 3 1/2 rounds. And you probably want a semi to tame the recoil.

    For upland quail you want light, fast handling 20 or 28 gauge shotgun.

    For elk and really big game, you want a powerful centerfire, someting like a .338 or a 300 WSM. You could use a garden variety 30-06 if you keep the ranges close.

    For general big game you’ll want a 30-06.

    For shooting varmints you’ll need a very flat shooting smaller centerfire caliber.

    For home defense you’ll want a centerfire semi-auto pistol or a short barreled 12 gauge. (You _could_ get an interchangeable barrel and use your duck/goose gun for this, I suppose).

    For general shooting and practice, you’ll need a .22 rifle.

    And those are just the guns you __need__.

  86. 86.

    liberal

    March 1, 2010 at 12:15 pm

    @gbear:

    Hunting rifles have their place, but what kinds of hunting are handguns used for?

    This.

  87. 87.

    Bob L

    March 1, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    Getting qualified to carry a concealed firearm at church? Who would Jesus Shoot? Classic.

  88. 88.

    liberal

    March 1, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    @Chuck Butcher:

    Funny how the same people who get a case of the ass about BushCo stomping on civil liberties in the name of security are all for it in this case. I don’t like either argument. And, I don’t like hypocricy.

    There’s no inherent right to carry a dangerous weapon, in the same manner as there’s an inherent right to speak, travel, associate, etc.

    And don’t cite the 2nd Amendment, unless you cite the whole thing.

  89. 89.

    LongHairedWeirdo

    March 1, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    The big reason for the gun fetish? It’s part persecution complex (“Those *libruls* want to steal your guns!”) and part fear (“if you disarm us, we’re helpless against all those dangerous criminals! Do you know what your chances are of being a crime victim?” (Very high – and would you want someone to step on your lawn without your permission (TRESPASSING!) if you couldn’t pack heat to protect yourself?)), and partly that shooting is fun, and relatively easy to get pretty good at.

  90. 90.

    Chuck Butcher

    March 1, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    @liberal:

    And don’t cite the 2nd Amendment, unless you cite the whole thing.

    Guess what, I can not only cite the entire thing, I can cite grammar rules of the time (and current), meanings of words, and the literature surrounding the goddam debates. Yours is the half-witted argument that something that was never even discussed is the meaning – that the military is allowed weapons. Yes, it is a universal right – see bear. No, arms are not nukes and cannons.

    Your authoritarianism is no more appealing than BushCo’s and no more based in fact.

  91. 91.

    Chuck Butcher

    March 1, 2010 at 1:55 pm

    @Sir Nose’D:

    gun ownership rates per 1000 among self-identified liberals vs. conservatives

    That kind of data is almost impossible to get, I can tell you that in Commie Oregon in the Commie Democratic Party of Oregon the second largest Caucus is the Gun Owners Caucus.

    In re:cars are regulated – your success is a shining example isn’t it?

  92. 92.

    Paul in KY

    March 1, 2010 at 2:26 pm

    PaulW, has it right. Back in the early 19th century, if you had a gun, & Caleb had defamed your honor, you would have to go through at least a 5 minute procedure to get the thing ready to fire.

    Now it’s pick it up and blast away.

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