Really all I have to say:
This is why I laugh when I hear the term principled conservative or I listen to the folks at the Next Right or the Frum Forum talk about principled conservatism. Nice party you got there. I’m sure the Fonzi of Freedom Nick Gillespie will appear on Fox News or at Big Government to decry this bullshit.
Anyone with any associations with the GOP at this point has no excuse.
hal
Figures they would single out the brotha. Look! He’s black, just like Obama!
4tehlulz
So what’s the over/under on how many receive “white powder” in the mail?
gex
Wait, I was still thinking we were under Bush-Cheney rules where tattling on what the executive branch was up to was verboten. Now it’s patriotic, I guess. Instead of the color coding for terrorism, we simply need a one character code , R or D, indicating the party of the sitting president. Otherwise, how are we to determine on our own which way is up?
General Egali Tarian Stuck
Dear Gawd almighty. Nothing had better happen to any of them or their families, or I may have to go urban guerilla. Arthritis and all.
MikeBoyScout
Just another in a long streak John.
That side not only will not play fair nor by any reasonable principle, they have no qualms about killing you.
Until reasonable people get that, we are all in danger.
Omnes Omnibus
Hey, if those people were innocent they would not be in Gitmo. Since they aren’t innocent they don’t need lawyers, so the only lawyers who would help them are terrorist symps.
/Rightwing dipshit
Joseph Nobles
Call these lawyers the John Adams 7 to combat the heinous tag Liz Cheney’s group is pushing.
Gus
Shit, I can’t keep up. I thought McCarthy was an American hero.
demkat620
They really have no more lines at all, do they?
God help us when these people get back in power.
jrg
And when they do, it won’t be terrorism. Heavens, no.
El Cid
Maybe somebody ought mention that the names of the DOJ attorneys (doing their Constitutional job, given, you know, trials and defense and whatnot) were revealed by the DOJ itself, and not FOXNOOZ.
Again, one side of the political spectrum literally comes out opposing the notion of a fair trial with a defense against charges, and it’s fucking treated like this is some sane part of national politics.
MikeJ
@Joseph Nobles: Excellent branding. I assume you’re referencing the Boston Massacre (a war crime in which nobody was convicted. Damn you Rahm!).
mcd410x
I’m sure these people really believe in what they’re doing, but they’re some really sick fuckers.
PaulW
The law is only for the rich people. The poor and furriner-born don’t need the law. They just get shipped straight to jail.
And remember, the Republicans are the Law-And-Order Party.
MikeJ
@mcd410x:
Why?
Brian J
I’m not yet a lawyer, so perhaps I am wrong in assuming this, but I imagine that these guys were assigned to represent the terror suspects like a public defender would be to a suspected criminal who couldn’t afford his own counsel. Is that right? Even if it isn’t, it’s not like these lawyers were on retainer or something. Just what the hell do the clowns trying to out them think they are accomplishing or proving?
Tattoosydney
Yep – fuck them.
Lawyers get a lot of bad press, a lot of it deserved.
What isn’t reported very much is the amount of time that lawyers at even the biggest firms spend helping community groups, civil rights groups and the poor and disadvantaged, or fighting to protect cherished human rights principles, usually with the blessing of the firms they work for, and usually for no monetary gain for either their firm or themselves.
Admittedly we charge like hell, and a cynical view might be that the firms let this work happen so they can trumpet it in their annual reports and publicity blurbs. However, a lawyer in a big law firm generally doesn’t take on work representing a detainee or advising a cancer charity or assisting a preschool because of the money or because its good for their career – in fact it’s usually a net loss for your prospects because the impact on your profit margin. They usually do it because they believe that they can make a difference for the better, in that tiny area of their lives at least, and might count for their karma.
Then again, I suppose that that is the problem from the wingnut perspective – helping other people is bad. Helping yourself or helping a big corporation is the only good.
freelancer (itouch)
Fuck the Cheneys.
Fuck the GOP
Fuck. Them. All.
Omnes Omnibus
@Tattoosydney: This.
El Cid
@PaulW: Yeah, but by “Law & Order” we just meant, youknow, the arrestin’ and lockin’ up and hangin’ part, not this sissy gay shit with people in robes going ‘Oh woe, does the defense have somethin’ to day,’ and then some talky-talk dandy type says ‘Oh I sure do yerhonor’ and then there’s like ‘evidence’ of how the guilty guy was the poor victim of confessions tortured out of people and other nonsense that liberal justice haters hate.
El Cid
@Tattoosydney: You know, I think somebody in Congress ought to propose a Constitutional amendment that no one charged with a crime gets to have a defense attorney. Period. It’s just you and the prosecutor. Maybe a jury if you look nice enough.
Omnes Omnibus
@El Cid: That might pass.
Joseph Nobles
@MikeJ: Got it in one.
batgirl
@mcd410x: I think you forgot the “+5”
Unless you are drunk, your comment makes no sense. They don’t really believe it. They are manipulators of the worst kind.
kay
Shameful, and deeply, deeply anti-American.
Looks like the John Adams 7 are going to need a little help here.
SpotWeld
So…. Bush attempts to politicize the DOJ but filling it with handpicked “loyal Bushies”
The current administration… (I suspect Obama is not directly involved) is keeping out of it, and keeping the lawyers out of it…
And now it’s only a matter of time before O’Reilly sends an intern to harass them.
The Dangerman
Pity the poor fucker (likely a Public Defender) that has to defend the piece of shit that just killed a 17 year old near San Diego (this is big news out here; not sure if it is getting National attention). By the reasoning of the Cheney’s, criminal defendants don’t deserve lawyers.
These fuckers are out of their mind.
someguy
Nope. Center for Constitutional Rights – which ironically enough is staffed in part by the relatives of the Rosenbergs, who were railroaded and murdered during the McCarthy Red scare – organized a lot of defense efforts and legal strategy for the people warehoused at Gitmo. These guys were pro bono volunteers from big firms, not court-assigned attorneys. And it’s a good thing, because if these prisoners didn’t have top flight counsel, they’d have probably been permanently disappeared by now.
El Cid
Had these accused been captured and tortured and then shot with a bullet in the head, the GOP leadership would be screaming that the torture was too soft and the gunshot to the head let them escape suffering.
Tattoosydney
@Tattoosydney:
Apologies for syntax and apostrophe errors in that post. These people make me so mad.
Tattoosydney
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yep – with every Repub and a huge block of alleged D’s voting aye.
El Cid
@Tattoosydney: They wouldn’t want to look like they had been weak in standing against defendantism.
Kryptik
So, if one of these guys is assassinated by the Tea Party Paranoids or the Beck Brigade, or Breitbart’s Heroes or whatever they wanna call themselves….does this mean they’ll be against the assassins having any legal council?
Seriously, I’m genuinely asking, because I’m god all fearful right now that this will result in blood.
DFS
Now that we know who these folks are, where’s the address to send them fruit baskets?
Midnight Marauder
@Gus:
Well, if Texas gets its way, that’s what the bright young children of this fine nation will be reading in their textbooks for years to come.
This is honestly just appalling and infuriating on so many levels. “Fox News has uncovered the identities…” — like they fucking unearthed some diabolical cabal of a sleeper cell lurking in the DOJ. Un.fucking.believable.
It is time to rally to the cause of the John Adams 7.
+4
El Cid
@Kryptik:
Why? Are you thinking there would be charges? ‘Cause, I’m thinking they feel that ticker tape parades would be the proper response of the DOJ and local prosecutors.
SP
You know they’d be right back at innocent until proven guilty if a proper upstanding citizen like the IRS kamikaze had lived to face charges.
gex
@DFS: Just watch John Daly’s twitter feed.
El Cid
@SP: I think you mean “innocent until proven awesome“.
Jamie
Principled conservatism was pushing up daisies before Dubya got to the White House
Zuzu's Petals
Fox News.
There’s a surprise.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
@El Cid:
Fix’t.
These fuckers are reprehensible, to say the very least. They are a bunch of chickenshit weasels who only care about themselves and anyone who agrees with them. They don’t love their country, they are in love with themselves and virulently hate everyone else.
El Cid
@DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal): Drowning might have been cheaper, but guns-R-awsum, so clearly a series of Desert Eagle (TM) shots to the soft tissues would have been preferred. Ideally done while the accused was tied to a pole on a trailer being driven around populated areas of whatever Moozlim or Ay-rabb country needed scarin’ that day.
Omnes Omnibus
@El Cid:
Hectoring?
Jason Bylinowski
OK, I’m aware this is going to make me either seem like an idiot or a jerk, but I have to ask……why weren’t the names of these lawyers already a matter of public record? I mean, is it a military thing? A general fear of reprisal from the public? A matter of national security which I just don’t understand? (Note: A lack of understanding on my part is assured in most things. Try not to point and laugh.)
Tonal Crow
Wanna hit the haters where it hurts? Donate to the ACLU or to CCR and write about it here.
BDeevDad
They are seriously going back to McCarthy’s “name names” tactic. Next they’ll ask those attorney’s for the names of partners and colleagues they consulted with through the paralegals and secretaries that worked for them.
Tonal Crow
The GOP can hardly do better than to start harassing lawyers at the DOJ.
Svensker
@Jason Bylinowski:
All DOJ attys names are part of the public record. What cases the individual attys worked on in private practice is not. The freaks were demanding to know who pro bono’d turrists.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
@El Cid:
With the sudden Repub concern over spending, I firmly believe that these suddenly budget-conscious assholes would want to make sure that we do the killing of dark people as cheaply as possible.
Of course I could be wrong since it’s easy to misinterpret the motives and actions of the criminally insane.
@Jason Bylinowski:
In a sane country, knowing the names of anyone involved in anything wouldn’t matter one bit. Problem is that we aren’t very sane right now. I would guess that about 30% of the country is totally ignorant, deranged and psychopathic, 40% are confused or don’t give a shit and 30% are sane but suffering from the antics of the criminally insane.
I really feel sorry for these seven people because I just know a storm of stupid is going to rain down on them. I am sure we will be getting counter top reports any time now.
BDeevDad
What’s the odds the names were leaked by a leftover Liberty University DOJ attorney from the Bush years?
Donald G
Picard: I recognize this court system as the one that agreed with that line from Shakespeare, “Kill all the lawyers.”
Q: Which was done…
Picard: …leading to the rule “Guilty until proven innocent.”
Q: But, of course. Bringing the innocent to trial would be unfair.
It looks like we don’t have to wait until the year 2079 for Western Society to go mad.
Svensker
@BDeevDad:
No, the names were released by the DOJ.
http://rawstory.com/2010/03/doj-reveals-names-lawyers-smeared-alqaeda-7/
Northern Observer
It is time to start call the Cheney’s unAmerican and enemies of the Republic as often as possible.
Zuzu's Petals
@El Cid:
Actually, if you follow their link to the Fox News story, you’ll see that FN “uncovered” the names and the DOJ merely “confirmed.”
The spokesman’s disgust comes through loud and clear:
Rick Taylor
Good thing the administration decided to let bygones be bygones and not actually prosecute anyone for torture. It’s so important to look forward and not point fingers after all.
MikeBoyScout
@DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal):
Right, because the publication of their names is the dog whistle. The intent is to release the storm upon them. Remember Tiller?
This is not a game, and this is not politics as usual. This is the Cheney Crime Family flexing its muscle.
Joel
Its about high time that the Cheneys are tried for treason.
Zuzu's Petals
@Svensker:
Of course that wouldn’t stop the countertop brigade from springing into action:
TenguPhule
Fixed.
Its infuriating that the guilty boast openly of their crimes and are cheered on by the mindless mob.
Zuzu's Petals
Some responses?
Donating $ in their name to:
Center for Constitutional Rights
Human Rights Watch
The Democratic Nominee Fund, Iowa Senate Race (via ActBlue) – and be sure to call Grassley’s office and tell them why.
———————————–
Edit: Hmm, maybe I’ll donate to the first two in Liz Cheney’s name, and have the acknowledgment card sent to her.
Mark S.
I get sort of annoyed when people allude to every little thing as Orwellian, but this is fucking Orwellian:
Also, Andrew McCarthy is the most loathsome person who works for National Review, which is quite an achievement.
Jason Bylinowski
@DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal): OK, fair enough. I figured that whatever it was I was missing would probably only make me sigh.
Sigh.
OK, that’s over. Now I just wish that whatever camel-breaking straw that has yet to happen in this country would just go ahead and happen, because I’m frankly tired of all this weirdness. I mean, it’s always been an amorphous thing, knowing what it means to be a real American, right? And now it’s much more difficult to really know. There is a sizable population of people in this country who would be hard pressed to recognize my worth as a citizen. And I’ll be honest and say that I sorta feel the same way about them.
Does anyone else ever feel that we are playing out a drama that has been in the works for centuries? History has a real heft these days for me, just thinking about how, all through the days of this nation, it’s been one big great food fight with the puritans on one side, the humanist/enlightenment brigade on the other. Both sides are of course completely ignorant of the dead Indian on the floor.
chrome agnomen
since the cheney’s are terrorists, i think we can dispense with the trial, and go right to the execution. just to be consistent, you know.
Jason Bylinowski
@Jason Bylinowski: And that, kids, is the story of how Jason Bylinowski went insane.
Loon Juice
I’ve always admired the lawyers who work the hardest cases. Clarence Darrow remains one of my heroes. I hope the seven come through this with the respect they deserve
Jason Bylinowski
@chrome agnomen: Yeah, but seriously, what the chances that Dick Cheney will ever see justice? I don’t really have a very firm opinion on what justice means for him. Oh, I’d just be happy as could be if he lived to see everything he worked for swept aside and forgotten. Irrelevance beats prison any day, though sure, I’ll take both. Hey there, dream, you’re looking pretty awesome in that pipe.
So perhaps the better question to ask is, what is Liz Cheney running for and when is she planning to announce?
TenguPhule
Well you have you start the bonfire somewhere.
Tattoosydney
@Jason Bylinowski:
… at the other end of the desert….
TenguPhule
You never know. The Gods can have a wicked sense of humor.
Tattoosydney
@TenguPhule:
It’s a god-eat-god world.
ETA: There’s very good eating on one of those, you know.
EATA (and to prove that once you start quoting Pratchett it’s hard to stop fincing relevant quotes: There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
Tattoosydney
@TenguPhule:
Ash Can
@Svensker: Isn’t that basically what BDeevDad said?
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Jason Bylinowski:
I do. And it doesn’t end well.
Johnny B
They have an excuse. The excuse is that the agree with this shit. It took a long time for me to realize that the plebes that dutifully listen to the ramblings of Limbaugh, O’Reilly, and Beck know perfectly well what they are selling. And they are bullish on the product. Too bad I found this out through long conversations with my educated, conservative father who becomes a little more intolerable with each passing year.
TenguPhule
@Tattoosydney
Heh.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
Same here. I have this feeling that I am watching Rome burn. What is really funny is that once again the fire started in the shops surrounding Circus Maximus, I mean the Republican party.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
@DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal):
One other note is that this time the Christians did the torturing and set the fire.
tc125231
auntieeminaz
@chrome agnomen: Good point.
Steeplejack
@Tattoosydney:
Small Gods. One of my favorites.
Ruckus
@Jason Bylinowski:
Does anyone else ever feel that we are playing out a drama that has been in the works for centuries? History has a real heft these days for me, just thinking about how, all through the days of this nation, it’s been one big great food fight with the puritans on one side, the humanist/enlightenment brigade on the other.
Remember the puritans didn’t come to america to escape intolerance, they came to practice it. And you are correct, we have been paying for it ever since.
Tax Analyst
@Ruckus:
Yes.
asiangrrlMN
@Ruckus: Yup. To practice their religion without interference. Not, as we are told, so that everyone could have religious freedom in general.
@El Cid: Snort. You made me laugh. That’s good because this whole thing is infuriating and…scary.
@Tattoosydney: They need to support their conclusion somehow, anyhow, and this is how they choose to do it–by attacking the lawyers. It’s sick and disgusting and vile, but that’s pretty much what Cheney means, anyway.
victory
http://americanhistory.about.com/cs/johnadams/f/adamsboston.htm
I can only imagine what the right wing wackos (i.e. GOP standard bearers) would do had this been, say, Obama.
kay
@victory:
They’re dumbing down the populace one conservative at a time.
They’ve never understood the constitutional role of the defense. Never.
They always fuck up the burden, which is on the state, not on the accused. You can repeat this until you’re blue in the face to one of these idiots and they’ll go right back to reciting how terrible the bad guy is, and smearing the defense.
It’s a simple concept, really.
The job of the defense is to make the state prove each and every element of the charge. That’s it. The defense doesn’t have to “like” the accused, or believe they’re innocent, or any of that, because the burden isn’t on the accused, and the lawyer isn’t the judge and jury.
They’ve never fucking gotten it. They didn’t get it in John Adams day and they still can’t grasp it. It’s too difficult a concept for them.
They actively work to make sure Americans don’t get it, either.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Something tells me that when Republicans read To Kill A Mockingbird they end up resenting the actions of Atticus Finch.
Ming
I’ll be overly serious here, as is my wont:
1. This is completely nauseating. Those poor lawyers and their families — what kind of anxiety, verbal abuse, implied and real threats are they going to go through, because they upheld the principle of a fair trial with representation?
2. A deep irony here is that the people at Fox who outed the lawyers feel they are expressing their love of America, when to me it’s they (Fox) who are being profoundly anti-American — they have no love for the rule of law, our system of justice, our Constitutional protections — for the best things about America. They are simply tribal.
3. I refuse to assume that all Republicans would agree with Fox’s move here. I think it’s unhelpful to paint everyone in a group with the worst actions of a select few of their members. On the other hand, it would be nice if some enterprising reporter would put this to the RNC — see what their official position is.
Ming
@victory: thanks for that.
kay
@Ming:
Well, I would submit, that it is ON REPUBLICANS to denounce this.
This isn’t a matter of not agreeing, silently. This is where they STEP UP, or DON’T.
They’re independent actors. It’s not my job, or the job of the press, to force them to do the right thing.
In this case. silence makes them complicit. I know it takes a lot to man up and defy the Cheneys, but I’m hopeful one or two conservative lawyers might finally, finally step up.
El Cid
@asiangrrlMN: I always like it when you laugh.
kay
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford:
Conservative parents here objected to “To Kill A Mockingbird” because it is “about a rape”, and high schoolers shouldn’t be exposed to rape.
Of course, it’s not “about a rape” any more than this witchunt is “about” terrorism, but they completely missed the whole trial-justice angle.
They read that book and got “rape!” out of it. I mean, Jesus Christ.
It’s part and parcel with believing a defense lawyer is a species of criminal. In some very fundamental way, they don’t get it.
El Cid
@kay: I keep repeating it: the modern conservative movement sees things like fair trials, Constitutional rights to privacy, control on police actions, standards of evidence as gifts that the state chooses to grant to worthy individuals.
They aren’t restraints upon one-self and the state in order to achieve a desired level of civilization, rather, they’re signs of weakness extended to unworthy accused by unmanly types.
kay
@El Cid:
I hate to be so ungenerous, but in my experience, it’s fact.
I can repeat and repeat and repeat that the defense forces the state to prove the case, that’s the job, and they’ll look at me with this dumb, stubborn face and flat eyes and say “but he’s a criminal”, or, “there’s PICTURES of what happened”.
They’re not budging on this. El Cid, and it’s fundamental that they they get it. This isn’t a difference of opinion. They have to get it, or the two sides got nothing to talk about.
I’m right, they’re wrong. We can’t debate it.
Ash Can
@kay: Who other than Ted Olsen would even consider it, though? Republicans nowadays aren’t exactly known for the qualities it would take to do this (courage, honesty, patriotism, decency, etc.).
kay
@Ash Can:
Sandra Day O’Conner finally stepped up and denounced some of the loony anti-judge jihads, you know, when she personally received threats.
She’s not my favorite jurist, but at least she recognized a threat.
It will be interesting, because it’s not at all uncommon to switch sides. My husband did it. He went from county prosecutor to defense. It’s almost a right of passage for criminal defense lawyers to start on the state side because prosecutors get so much trial time, right out of the box.
He could switch back, too. He’d have to recuse on conflicts, but that’s it.
It’s also really common for prosecutors to go on the bench. Our current county judge and the last one came directly from the state side. The idea that they would then have some broad ideological conflict or inner war of loyalty is just ridiculous.
It’s insulting.
socratic_me
@Ming,
Given that Sen. Grassley has been pushing this line for months without any Republican pushback, I think it is probably fair to extend this to the party as a whole.
BDeevDad
IOKIYAR
someguy
The idea that a lawyer’s work for one client would influence their work for another client is laughable, particularly when the lawyer has moved on to a new job. This is just another case of the Republicans making smoke where there’s no fire.
kay
@BDeevDad:
It’s just this profound, sweeeping statement. I mean, what am I to take from this New Bedrock Conservative Principle?
Every lawyer who was ever the defense is forever barred from the state side? And vice versa? Does this apply to judges? Judges who were either the prosecutor or the defense are “biased” and can’t handle the leap to neutral arbiter?
Conservatives are going to have to write some new rules. This is radical.
Ming
@socratic_me: Oh my god. That’s awful. Thanks for the link, Soc —
heh. i guess that’s just me being librul again — assuming innocence until blahblahblah…
sparky
one could write a history of american intolerance, but that would be un-american.
mistersnrub
It astounds and frightens me how conservatives can rail against “statism” and “tyranny” and “centralized power” etc. and then support the complete unshackling of the State’s awesome prosecutorial power.
kay
From NRO. We have an explanation.
They didn’t know Adams represented British soldiers. Or, they “forgot”.
Because “unearthed” as used here is pretty silly. It’s one of the best known stories about the Founders, so I’m not sure how the conservative brain trust reached adulthood unaware of it, but apparently they did.
[Mike Potemra]
The recent controversy over the “Gitmo Nine”—Justice Department lawyers who previously served as counsel to terrorism suspects—has unearthed a fascinating fact, one I didn’t remember, from colonial history: that John Adams served as lawyer for the British soldiers accused in the Boston Massacre. Retired Air Force colonel Morris Davis, who was for a time in charge of the military-commission prosecutions at Guantanamo, said the following: “It is absolutely outrageous for the Cheney-Grassley crowd to try to tar and feather [some of the attorneys] and insinuate they are al-Qaeda supporters. You don’t hear anyone refer to John Adams as a turncoat for representing the Brits in the Boston Massacre trial.”
kay
Adams’ law practice dropped by half, due to the smearing by the Cheney-Grassleys of his day.
Here’s what he wrote about it:
“This was one of the most gallant, generous, manly and disinterested actions of my whole life, and one of the best pieces of service I have ever given my country”.
Koz
Oh bullshit. Those lawyers were already known, or at least they were publicly speculated on. Maybe terrorists should get legal representation, Mafia members do. But that doesn’t mean we have to like the lawyers who take them as clients. If they want to earn an honest living as lawyers, let them represent drunk driving defendants like the rest of the bar does. There’s no reason to employ them at DOJ.
Zuzu's Petals
@Koz:
Liz, can’t you come up with at least a halfway intelligent troll persona?
kay
@Koz:
I don’t know, Koz. Conservatives and the Cheneys are trashing an American icon.
I wouldn’t mess with John Adams, despite the fact that you-all just learned about him today.
Back to the history books for the conservative intelligentsia!
With hard work and perseverance, maybe the writers at NRO and the former Vice President and his daughter could learn some US history.
At least at the level of a high school freshman.
deadrody
LOL again!!! The new McCarthyism.
That affects 7 fucking rich lawyers / Obama pals. You people are fucking kidding me. Such douche-tards.