House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer is pushing back against the March 18 deadline that White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs indicated was the target for a vote on health care reform.
Asked by a reporter about a potential health care vote on the 18th, Hoyer replied, “Your premise is incorrect. You mean that date that Mr Gibbs mentioned. None of us has mentioned the 18th, other than Mr Gibbs. We are trying to do this as soon as possible. That continues to be our objective.”
I’m thinking a couple more months of acrimonious debate and deal making, on top of the last 13 months of bullshit from both houses, is precisely what we need to gain momentum. It is almost like after 50 years of talking about health care reform, they were caught off guard with a majority. Why take advantage of the President flying around the country making his case for health care reform when you can sit on your hands and worry about November!
Also, I am sure this is Rahmbama’s fault. Somehow.
He should be out there fighting for it using the bully pulpit! Maybe Rahm should deploy his massive penis in the showers again?
Per TPM, Waxman is pushing back on the deadline notion, too; told Rahm (not a naked one, though, presumably) that much at a meeting today. They’re going to back this thing up so long we’ll be at mid-term time and nothing will get done.
the Dems are incapable of leadership. truly. they are unwilling to organize, to fight or to unite as a party. the are a bunch of ignorant little chieftains, trying to preserve their little fiefdoms.
on the bright side, that the Dems manage to get elected at all is a testament to the total fucking malicious incompetence of the GOP.
Well all I have to say is fuck Hoyer. Might be time to call him tomorrow. Let’s wait and let the gop run more ads to convince us not to vote for the bill. By the way did I say FUCK him..yet.
I look forward to a second August recess of agitation combined with an approaching election SO MUCH. Actually, I’d rather have a Hot Massa Tickle.
Fuck Steny Hoyer and Henry Waxman and double fuck Dennis Kucinich with a rusty shovel. Pass The Goddam Bill Already!!
No one could have predicted this would happen.
I pretty much called this the minute that the White House set that deadline. Remember, “I’m extremely confident that House/Senate will have a bill on my desk for signature before the August recess”?
It’s almost like they purposefully try to defy Obama’s deadlines just for the sake of being defiant. Fuck. Them. All.
I totally know! The idea that Obama might use the bully pulpit is so silly. It makes me giggle.
Of course, I now await my betters, in the form of BTD, Fuckhead and Glorious Glenn Greenwald, to tell me why my opinion is wrong. Wankers.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Some idiot from Wisconsin was quoted today as saying “we need to break it up into little pieces we can all agree on”. Translation “If I curl up in a fetal position and whimper, maybe Nelson GOP Muntz will stop giving me this wedgie!”
They really are just stupid fucking cowards.
John, all he’s basically saying is, they don’t have the votes.
It’s not a matter of leadership, or Rahm, or anything other than it being a shit bill, that unfortunately has to be passed, because not passing it would be even worse.
So yeah, heckuva job, Democrats (and that includes most of them).
I have a question for the men. Is it common for guys to just stand around naked in the shower room, chatting or arguing or whatever? Don’t you wear towels for conversations?
What is the usual gym ettiquette?
Are they taking turns trying to f over Obama? It was stupid Stupack, the 3 stooges in the Senate, Hoyer, et al.
WTF is wrong with these fools? Can’t they see the train coming down the track? The intertubes are keeping watch and they don’t get that people are not as stupid and passive as they wish.
I think there is a lot of resentment against Obama. The House and Senate now have to wrok instead of lunches and dinners. They have an active President and that must tick them off. Oh, and never mind the Repubs, they will just repeat the same tripe over and over again.
This bill begins the breakdown of the two class system. Their sense of superiority and power is going down the drain.
How may super rusty garden implements do we need to get the damned bill passed?
@Kennedy #6: Was it ever specified, August recess of *WHAT YEAR*?
@sfinny: No, they let it all hang out. Towels are for snapping, ala Boy Bush.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I did notice a lot of the waverers are from upstate NY. I can only assume that in their tiny little minds (and not just theirs, see my comment above about the nitwit from WI), they have to vote against health care now, because that guy down the road tickled a staffer.
Who the fuck puts these ideas in their heads? I assume there are young Plouffes and Axelrods and Begalas working for these people. Can no one get the whole “Winners win, losers lose” thing through their marble noggins?
Sheesh, all of the womens locker rooms I’ve been in have been so tame. I learn something new everyday!
So they don’t want to pass the bill now cuz they don’t have the votes but they would rather string us along thinking they have the vote so we will vote for them and give them money.
Okay I get it now… Just treat us like abused spouses.
Well just fuck em…
This is such bull. First the White House doesn’t show leadership and when they do Congress is all; step off we got this.
Does anyone remember August? Do we WANT more teabagger rallies for Easter? Because frankly, I don’t need to watch more folks climbing up on a cross because 30 million folks will have access to health care.
This is simple.
Pass the damn senate bill. Pass the reconciliation bill. Have the senate pass the reconciliation bill. Easy as pie. And since the house goes first on the reconciliation; they know what’s going to be fixed and frankly you can’t make an add about the cornhusker kickback when there is no cornhusker kickback. That would be stupid and lead to a marvelous opportunity to highlight Republican obstructionism.
This is the kind of thing that is genuinely freaking me out; Hoyer wouldn’t be pushing back so hard if they could find the votes.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@demo woman: I’ve been mulling all day sending money to HCfAN. Things are a little tight, but I’ve gotta do something. These people are pissing me off so much I’m gonna start grinding my teeth again. And the Chamber of Commerce and the insurance cartel are gonna start flooding the airwaves.
Very, very bad – OFA made calls today saying March 18 is the day.
Can it be so hard for Congress to understand that the more people see and hear and watch them, the less they like them?
I know that’s probably hurtful, but surely there are hard-nosed political types that can just tell them this, straight out? Because they’re not getting it.
OT, but Throne of Blood with Tishiro Mifune as Macbeth is about to come on TCM.
They are just useless. I have no idea how to get them off their collective rear ends and get them to do their freaking jobs. If they were in the private sector they would have been fired years ago for incompetence.
It’s so incredibly frustrating to watch. I feel helpless. Who can you vote for? The Republicans? No. And they know it. The only solution seems to be to primary the useless Dems. It seems to be having some effect on Blanche Lincoln.
Please! Democrats don’t want health insurance reform anymore than Republicans do but as long as the “debate” is going on, insurance companies will keep throwing gobs and gobs of money at them.
Obama’s given a few deadlines (or at least dates of wishful thinking) down the road and been slapped around for it. But, hey, we’re supposed to be happy he’s fighting now even if he loses because of those jerks in Congress.
damnit…I wanted to say something and got distracted by my tea making (not a joke). The Pink Floyd on Slacker didn’t help either…
Stop fucking saying you are confident that the bill will get passed on Monday, then on fucking Tuesday insinuate that there may not be enough votes to pass the bill. It’s March, the bill should have been passed already. If you are going to complain that Obama needs to be a leader and be out in front and push HCR in order to raise public opinion and get it through Congress, you damn well better pass the bill. But what has changed? Nothing. He’s providing the leadership they’ve been begging for and they are just stuck.
I think it’s time for Obama to say “fuck that noise”. I’m not talking about the bully pulpit. I’m talking about calling every goddamn one of them. I don’t get the impression that he’s doing this behind the scenes.
He’s given them over a year to dick around on this. I don’t even care what the cold, hard realities are. He does not need to meet them in the middle and delay this further. He needs to make it clear that he’s pissed and most of the country is pissed and if THEY don’t get their shit together then many Congressmen — not Obama — are going to lose their jobs in November. And each day that they delay, call up the holdouts and tell them that they will not get a dime from the national party ever again if this bill does not pass.
Obama needs to shift the “shut the fuck up and do what I say” window. What happens, happens. If the proverbial indians don’t want a proverbial chief, well, too fucking bad. They’ve had their shot at self-determination and they SUCK ASS.
Well done, sir.
As to the topic at hand….fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, and fuck these loser democrats.
And yet, there WILL be a bill. In spite of their sorry selves.
One of the best movies of all time. But grim. Very grim. Cool outfits, tho.
@sfinny: Mr Screaming, after watching the Hot Massa Tickle story, looked at me and said, “No one’s ever done that to me at the gym.”. I was relieved.
What Glenn said about the Dems deliberately not passing shit is ringing truer and truer every day.
I doubt even that would work. Then you would have Dems complaining about that.
The prez will be in St. Louis tomorrow. Be interesting to see what he says assuming Rahm’s passed along the message.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: What’s even worse is that he already voted for the house bill. So he’s going to campaign in November on a flip-flop? What an idiot.
And people think the WH could have just handed these folks a bill and they would have passed it. If they’re pushing back on a deadline that is 8 months behind schedule, I think it’s safe to say they would have told the WH where to put their bill.
What? Steny Hoyer has been recruited by the Hamsher/Kucinich/Nader Axis of Evil? Who knew?
In that case he should say “You’re like a waiter who can’t get the orders straight because he keeps sneaking outside to toke up with the dishwashers. The manager is gonna take over your tables now. If you pull this shit again you’re fired.
Or have you not noticed that EVERYONE thinks you’re doing a shitty job?”
Does anyone have a link that breaks down where the votes are in the House? Are they a couple votes short, or is it a lot more than that?
What kills me is that everyone knew what the gameplan was once Brown won. This really shouldn’t be taking so long.
But I honestly don’t know what he can do to get this legislation passed, because the Democratic Congress refuses to do what it takes to get this legislation passed. You start to wonder if lawmakers are trying to sabotage this administration.
Maybe, just maybe, the House leadership is pushing back against the deadline because they don’t have the votes yet.
Nothing wrong with the White House trying to push the process forward, but no one – not even naked Rahm in the shower – has the ability to just wave a magic wand and make the bill pass.
Anger is justified, but the deserving targets are probably Stupak and the other asshole holdouts. Not to mention Kucinich, whom I did my best to defeat in the primary last election!
Isn’t the problem in the house both stupak (12 or some imaginary number of asshole votes) and the blue dogs who already voted against the bill–and I thought there were at least twelve of those. The democrats have the votes, had the votes, will have the votes only so long as all of them vote the party line. To the extent that each of these assholes imagines themselves to be a free agent, the democrats never had the chance to pass anything good in the house twice. They squeaked through on the original house vote because some members thought they’d get a second bite at the apple with the Senate Bill/conference bill. The vote on *this* Senate Bill, now, with no hope of blue dog changes, or stupak kill the women changes afterwards is an entirely different matter to some of these congresspeople. Its not steny hoyer’s fault that he can’t get them to vote right. They are either stupid or evil, at this point, or both.
Bad Horse's Filly
Anymore talk about hot Rahm’s massive penis and I might have to start a tickle fight.
@Mark S.: I treid twice to post a link to hotline, but both times it just vanished, not even showing up in moderation. There’s a whip count from yesterday up.
@Mark S. : David Dayen @FDL’s News Desk is doing this and he’s got a 192 yes, 194 no. So that’s the baseline. Apparently, the house hasn’t started whipping on this bill I’d assume b/c they’re waiting on CBO.
Wow, Steny. Way to motivate your party’s voters to zzzzzzzzzzz.
Time to restart that machine!
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@aimai: That’s what I thought too and I think it’s mainly the blue dogs. But there could also be some liberal members still balking, especially trusting the Senate to fix their bill after the House passes it. And it’s hard to not have some sympathy for that, but it’s not a good excuse to continue to hem and haw. The path on this has narrowed to the point, there is only voting for and passing the senate bill by the House and trusting the senate to keep their word, though the senate parliamentarian is somewhat of a wildcard in all this.
I don’t wonder anymore — they are very clearly, flat out, trying to sabotage the administration. What it gains them I have no fucking idea, but they’re not pulling all of this “oh, wait, you wanted me to vote on the bill?” by accident.
As I’ve said before, elected Democrats are pissed off that this nobody half-term Senator from Illinois could waltz in and win the presidency when half of them have tried the same thing and flamed out spectacularly. You think it’s not in the back of Kucinich’s mind that he wasted thousands of dollars running for president three times and Obama made it there on his first try?
Is anyone primarying any of Stupak’s gang? Sure seems like a good time to bring that up, if it’s happening. Or maybe a good time for someone to get in the game.
J. Michael Neal
That’s funny. All of the women’s locker rooms I’ve been in have been full of lots of shrieking and yelling, and even threats of outright violence.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Violet: Stupak himself (See two or three posts down). Dan Lipinski had two challengers in the last primary, though I can’t remember the details. Betsy Markey I think is seriously underestimating the damage she’s going to do to her fund-raising. Joseph Cao beat money-in-the-freezer guy, and I think he’s considered the most vulnerable Republican in the House.
Whoops — Kucinich ran for president twice, not three times. But my point still stands.
@Violet: TN 6 and 8 are retiring, , AR 1 and 2 are retiring. Ellsworth is running for Senate in IN. AL 7 LA 3 running for other offices.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Also, labor is pissed, which may scare some of these people, right?
There is more than enough blame to go around all over the big tent as of late.
Well no more slacking for me, tomorrow I start calling my rep (John Hall NY) again. I was calling bi-weekly but got lazy the last month. It’s just frustrating because I haven’t gotten a definitive answer, but the aids seem happy to hear pro-reform comments, although I do always mention that the lack of a public option is disappointing. Maybe they need to know that some of us are not public option absolutists.
@Rhoda: thanks for this, but calling Matheson (UT-2) “possible” instead of “less possible” or better, “goddam unlikely” is a bit wishful. I’ll keep calling him, tho.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
all kinds of interesting news out there
Labor On Dems Who Block Health Reform: We’ll ‘Take Them Out’
Gibbs: House Should Take Note That 50 Senators Support Reconciliation
and, while I still think this is at best a longshot, it might make negotiations more interesting:
Still Surging: Public Option Picks Up Three More Backers
I see Obama is going to Cleveland next week.
@mr. whipple: Don’t they have a big unicorn ranch there?
Indeed they do.
@mr. whipple: Exactly. Just today I was observing to myself that there seems to be a itsy bitsy teeny bit of momentum goin’ on heah. Now – not so much.
They’re self-centered, mincing, dim-witted assholes, but they’re still going to pass it. They have no choice. But by the time it passes, we’re going to detest every one of them.
Forgot to add:
SIA: “I was relieved” gets hilarious deadpan response of the day.
What I think is funny is these House critters were all whining that Obama wasn’t lighting a fire under their butts, and then when he does, they give him the old hippy punch.
OT: Oh god. Marc Thiessen on Daily Show.
And he just compared the lawyers working pro bono for detainees to Mob and Drug Cartel laywers.
So, once again, the White House tries to lean on Congress to get something done, and Congress tells them to get bent. But hey, you know, the whole mess is Rahmbama’s fault for not showing leadership on the thing. Also.
I agree with you, but this is bigger than Obama for Democrats, and some of them have been in Congress for decades.
Those better be some safe seats, is all I can say, because I do not know what they run on. There’s simply no good reason for any Democrat to go out of their way to retain them, and despite all this constant nattering, the majority of their votes come from the Democrats who turn out and vote “for the Democrat”.
I don’t even know how they frame the defeat, and “move on”, in real terms, when actually campaigning in their districts, and this includes those Democrats who voted “no” the first time around. Even “blue dogs” have a base. They don’t win without some reliable percentage of democrats turning out. Blue dogs especially don’t win without that.
@sfinny: Why, thank you sfinny!
OT, but someone needs to send a hearse down to the Daily Show stages to collect the corpse of Marc Thiessen.
And Jesus Christ, he’s an idiot. Looks like Tiffany Amber got all the brains in that family.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Thanks for posting this little bit of reporting before I drown in self-induced speculating. From the HuffPost article (and yes I hate that site, but it’s Sam Stein, who I like):
One or two less prima dona assholes and we have a bill.
OT: Marc Theissen is such a little bitch. Jon Stewart was great.
I think I understand what’s happening. All Obama needs to do is to announce that it would be a big mistake for congress to pass this bill before the end of March, and it will happen before you know it.
A BIIIG mistake, congress. A BIIIIG mistake!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@SIA: I don’t like HuffPo either, for all the celebrity and Oprah-esque bullshit, but she’s got a couple of good political reporters. I don’t even look at the fucking diaries anymore.
@colleeniem: Stewart just made him look like a little girl. That was amazing.
Well, *I’m* sold.
(ETA to misspell of the bad word)
Thiessen is apparently butt-hurt because he believes that Jon wouldn’t let him talk (this is at the end of the interview, mind you) and wasn’t letting him create his own reality; of course, I’d say that Thiessen was allowed to say too much because Jon was being overly deferential, but I think Jon did cut through the bull when it was most important.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@mr. whipple: I hope he shares a stage with Joe Cimperman.
Somehow, I’m thinking that all this is going to have to get added to the lexicon, if not the creation of a new tag.
ETA: Hmmph. Blockquote fail, and I await moderation.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
The bill will pass with the usual democrat angst beforehand but not before they run out of ammo and pause to reload for the next round in the perpetual donkey circular firing squad.
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
That would be sweet. Can’t wait to see exactly where he’ll appear.
@ajr22: Indeed. I can’t wait to see the full interview where I am sure Thiessen continued to make an ass of himself.
I never bought that. We’ve been here, before, after all.
The last Democratic President was too autocratic on health care. He handed them a bill, his wife had that secret committee, and that was an outrage.
This one had them draft it, then put his own ass completely on the line to sell it, and that’s not just right either.
I just don’t know that anyone can put together all of the elements Democrats require to pass legislation. That President may exist, theoretically, but these last two Democrats have been pretty damn smart and politically talented, and neither could (apparently) engineer the perfect climate for legislation-passing.
@colleeniem: His whole argument is contra to the justice system. He just assumes guilt, and since we are always at war with eurasia we don’t have to give people lawyers. Its scary as hell really. The idea that lawyers should not represent people the government accuses of “crimes” is an indefensible position. Stewart ran circles around him, he really didn’t have any valid points left to make.
Marc Thiessen whining at the end of the Daily Show interview was nauseating. Not even exaggerating. I felt it in my gut.
I might have to check it out when they re-run TDS tonight.
Goddamn it. Do I really need to get all my rusty garden implements honed and season? Because I will do it! Don’t think I won’t. Pass the fucking goddamn bill already.
@cleek: Hey, you still got that pie filter available? I can usually avoid reading the trolls, but there is one that always seems to slip under my radar.
I think what Thiessen would say (and let me clear that I do not support this line of argument in anyway whatsoever) is that they’re not criminals in the same way that murderers are criminals (and he’d probably object to the use of the word “criminals”…); they are foot soldiers in “war” and should be treated as such.
To him, the only proper treatment of these people is summary execution.
Note to Thiessen Re: TDS appearance: You know, when you play the sneering authoritarian the entire interview, it looks kind of pathetic when you end by whining about how unfair the host was.
Steny Hoyer raises his ugly head again. Anyone remember this? “After Dick Gephardt betrayed the majority of House Democrats and plotted with Bush, Cheney and some Blue Dogs to thwart the will of the majority and rubber stamp Bush’s decision to attack and occupy Iraq, he was forced out of his role as Democratic Leader. Steny Hoyer deserves the exact same fate.”
Maybe it’s time to contribute.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
Time for another dispatch from the really weird shit files.
Dumbest wanna be terrorist of the week prize goes to “JihadJane” (and no below the belt hippie punching please.)
And no it doesn’t come from The Onion.
“Oh shit, you mean people will actually expect us to do something about this now?”
@asiangrrlMN: Seasoned. I am so irate that I used the wrong verb tense. Teh horrors!
@Citizen_X: I suppose I should watch it. I really, really, really loathe Thiessen’s smug, smarmy, sneering ways, though.
You know… all this RAAAAAAAAAHHHM!!!! stuff has actually made me like Emanuel. And given that I don’t like Emanuel’s political leanings, and think that triangulation in the name of national political narratives is a pretty fucking stupid waste of time and resources, this has made me hate the hippies more than I already did.
Kinda like how Dick Cheney making me defend the CIA only served to make me hate Dick Cheney even more than I already did.
@Quackosaur: Yes but he doesn’t even want to let a lawyer determine if they’re soldiers. To him if you are picked up and put in Guantanamo you don’t deserve a lawyer, and lawyers should be questioned for defending you. The point he made about questioning lawyers who defend pedophiles pretty much shows his contempt for the justice system.
That ending made my knotted and combined locks to part and each particular hair to stand on end, like quills upon the fretful porpentine.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Sly: I think we should primary the big dicked fucker myself. Just to be sure.
Kevin Phillips Bong
@Citizen_X: That whining, paunchy little f*ck. I just want to punch him in his jowly little face. This country is going to sh*t.
I haven’t seen the interview yet but did either Stewart or Thiessen mention at any point that his wife is the director (staff director?) of the Senate Republican Policy Committee? I’m just curious because Chris Hayes at least once offered that his wife was in the employ of President Obama today when he was covering for Ms Maddow tonight. (He was insanely nervous but all things considered did all right)
I know that was supposed to be all deep and think about Shakespeare, but this is really what it made me think of:
“That’s right. Locks, of course, not socks. Odd that he should have said porpentine when he meant porcupine. Slip of the tongue, no doubt, as so often happens with ghosts.”
(As the man says, read the whole thing.)
@Mnemosyne: I love those books, but after three or four I have to put them away for a while and come back later.
Although if you’ve got a summer place in the country I’d be glad to show up and not get engaged to your niece.
Good Krugman post suggesting it will be passed, and that it will be a plus for the Democrats. It also praises Obama for finally getting on the bus –which, BS conspiracy theories aside, is a factually accurate.
I am surprised to see nobody mention Mighty Markos going all Chuck Norris on Dennis the K over on Countdown tonight. He was employing that primary verb in all directions threatening to create a thousand Little Liebermann Lite parties. Wow. Give the boy some firecrackers and a lighted punk.
I did not read this thread, but F**K! these people have had a f**kload of time to get their sh*t in order. It’s not like they’re digging f**king coal or pouring steel. Stenny Hoyer can suck a d**k, as far as I’m concerned. PTFB!
we now return to your regularly scheduled programming.
I just read some of the detailed descriptions of waterboarding over at Yglesias’ website.
Can you believe they had to resort to feeding the detainees Ensure so that they wouldn’t choke to death on their own vomit?
No wonder these monsters burned the videos……Who would want to be caught dead treating a human in such a monstrous way?
Sick fuckers…sick…..sick….sick…Bus, The Cheney’s, Yoo, Bybee and the rest.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Sly: I don’t know what to think about Rahm, I’m skeptical of all the shit that gets thrown at him, and not particularly impressed with what’s public. But if that shower story is true, it’s just the kind of crazy ass shit I kind of admire in a pol. From a distance. In the third person.
And double fuck that flabby faced Thiessen.
Markos is about electing Democrats who vote with the party. I’ve only met him a handful of times (long before Kos) but I imagine it enrages him as it enrages me to suggest that voting against progressive legislation because its not progressive enough is a good idea. That’s basically the Armando/BTD nonsense that Chris Bowers so happily slaps down here:
And double fuck that flabby faced Thiessen.
On this point is it really impossible to find people who aren’t 50+ pounds overweight to spit out the same insipid talking points. Party of No? Party of No Jawlines?
Regarding timing, what is first needed is a draft reconciliation bill to be put on paper. Then, that needs to go to the CBO for scoring. And if the scoring is not okay, they might need to change the draft reconciliation bill somewhat. Then, they can run it through the committees, get a rule and go to the Floor. That process, at minimum, takes 2 weeks – the CBO just doesn’t move fastly.
So, until there is an actual draft reconciliation bill on paper, the clock really doesn’t start ticking. We can call Hoyer all sorts of names, but that won’t really change the timeline.
If they’ve got the votes, my prediction would be the last week of March or the first week of April for House passage. Then, it’s to the Senate which has no effective timeline (except for reconciliation bills).
Ailuridae, my view of Armando’s “position” (at least as it was demonstrated the other day on BJ) is that he thinks everyone is an idiot worthy of name-calling and that on the great matter of health reform, he abstains.
@kay: Obama did get further than Clinton but its been a clusterf**k. If there are progressives in the house who vote against the bill, they need to be shot. If you follow the history of reform, each effort has gotten more conservative so the idea that a more progressive bill will be produced in the future belies history.
I see many comments from those on the left suggesting if this bill passes, nothing else will happen. But if it fails, things will become more dire and will force ‘real’ reform such as a robust PO or even single payer. What is the makeup of congress that will pass that is never discussed. If this attempt fails the next effort will be selling insurance across state lines, tort reform, and vouchers.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
IMO, that’s the plan for some of these pols, delay until after the elections and then move the goalposts some more. The longer they delay the more money they will collect from the various big players in health care. Once this passes you can bet the cash is going to dry up and move over to the opposition.
Being a fractious party gives cover for the scumbag pols who only live to milk the system to their benefit and not really get anything meaningful (read: controversial) done. I can’t stand the Repubs but I do admire their ability to unite behind something and fight tooth and nail for it, something I haven’t seen the Democrats do in fucking eons. They just don’t have the same commitment to their goals as the Repubs and that’s why the Repubs hand their asses over to them on a daily basis.
Being a member of a party that votes in lockstep is nuts, just like being in a party that can’t agree on a fucking thing except to do absolutely nothing that might endanger their cash and job. We have one statesman left, Obama, and that is it. He can’t do everything on his own though.
He’s not a Republican.
I see many comments from those on the left suggesting if this bill passes, nothing else will happen. But if it fails, things will become more dire and will force ‘real’ reform such as a robust PO or even single payer
And of course we know that passing huge progressive legislation gets revisited. You don’t have to look further than CHIP for that.
This should be an opportunity for those who think this bill doesn’t do enough (and I tend to agree) to make clear cogent arguments in print and on-line about how to fill in the gaps. I think the obvious case for that can be made as a greater than cost Medicare alternative for all Americans. But while that is both great policy and great politics the work of convincing the American people hasn’t been done.
I relate this often but my current costs for Medicare if it were made open to me given age, smoking preference etc are likely 1/3rd what I pay in the private market and I have absolutely no assurances of receiving treatment for anything outside of a bike/car accident and then being able to continue to pay for insurance. I would happily not only pay more than Medicare costs for my actuarial class I would pay more for Medicare than I pay for my current private insurance. A lot of people would and like me, they would take it to be some mix of security, convenience and duty. Opening it up in this way would help Medicare (an immensely popular program) in the long fiscal security run, it would allow people who wished to have a single set of care-givers and records for their entire (adult) life.
@Toni: I’m sorry, but no. After the Clinton administration’s failed health care reform push, we have waited over 16 years for this to come up again. If this round fails, I would rather not wait until I’m a few years away from Medicare.
When have you ever known Champions of Freedom™ to ever admit to conflicts of interest?
A clue: no.
Shorter WH: “We’re trying to piss away our majorities in Congress, so we can get reelected running against Republicans in power!”
Shorter Democratic Congress: “Screw you, we’re plenty capable of pissing away our majorities on our own, before you can!”
Anne Laurie? Are you up? We can haz fresh, new, shiny thread, plz? kthxbai.
Angry Space Cadet
Oh don’t worry folks. I’m sure there is enough time left before the mid-terms for the Democrats to tackle health care, financial regulation,immigration, and fail to pass anything. On the bright side, I’m sure Obama, like Alexander Kerensky before him will have a long academic career in exile. I’m sure his 2015 book, The Triumph of Dopes will be a real page turner.
I wouldn’t immediately leap to take this at face value. There’s a lot of posing going on.
I think what’s going on is that Obama is pushing the unmodified Senate bill, and a House fixes bill later, which there is no reason to believe will pass. The House Democratic leadership, not wanting to be a rubber stamp, not wanting to pass an unpopular bill, which will probably cost the House Democrats heavily in November, and perhaps even having some real concern for the welfare of their constituents, is pushing back.
John, I don’t think Obama deserves followers like you.
@asiangrrlMN: Someone must be conscious. I think a bunch of comments just got liberated or something.
@Yutsano: You think? I’m not conscious. Then again, I don’t have to liberate anything but the girls!
@Angry Space Cadet: Well, the name you’ve chosen for yourself is appropriate, at the least.
@Comrade Kevin: Ahh c’mon, it can’t be a health care thread until someone suggests Obama is nothing but teh total fail already and there is no hope for his Presidency. It’s a Democratic specialty.
Brick Oven Bill
Obama is nothing than teh total fail already and there is no hope for his Presidency.
In case you haven’t figured it out yet, health care “reform” will get delayed until November 2010. At that point, the Demos will shriek that they must get re-elected in order to bring magnificent social justice and a health care paradise for all to America.
If they are re-elected, they’ll quietly shelve the HCR bill. If they aren’t re-elected, they’ll throw up their hands and whimper, “Well, what could we do?”
Either way, problem solved.
@Brick Oven Bill: You’re no fun when you just phone it in. I demand my trolls at least try. Sheesh.
You might be worse at trolling than BOB or makewi
@Ailuridae: Purity is an ugly burden to bear. It’s so funny how those who are in the kill the bill camp can’t then map out any coherent strategy for getting their much purer bill passed the current make up of the Congress. I find it curious to criticize the current strategy then refuse to come up with one of your own. It’s almost as if they didn’t put any thought into it. Of course that would be unpossible!
They’ve developed an interesting strategy of “tails I win, heads you lose” with the rest of progressives right? If a bill is signed into law its not “real reform” and if no bill is signed into law its a failure of not listening to them.
Living in the only metro region that has shed more jobs than Detroit/Livonia I’m just worried about people around me not dying because of routine treatable illness. I’m such a centrist loser
Bingo. That right there is the difference. Everyone I’ve seen who wants this bill to pass acknowledges its flaws but still touts that IT WILL DO A HELLUVA LOT OF GOOD FOR A HELLUVA LOT OF PEOPLE. We’re not going to get to single payer or public/private split on the first go round, and if you research the history of every other country where this has been put into place, it didn’t happen there either. I choose to acknowledge this reality and work with it the best I can. It’s not a one and done deal by a long shot, just like every other single major piece of progressive legislation has ever been anywhere. But we need a something before we can change the something.
@Ailuridae: You do realize that even if the bill passes, people will still be dying of routine treatable illness until 2014, right?
This is the elephant in the room that no one who supports the bill seems to want to talk about. 40,000 people die every year in America due to lack of health care. Now, I don’t believe that this bill will save very many of those lives, but let’s say for the sake of argument that the bill supporters are right and it will. Well, even if the bill passes, universal coverage (such as it is in the Senate bill, anyway) doesn’t start until 2014.
So, 40,000 people a year, times five years, equals 200,000 dead Americans. It only took LBJ 11 months to get Medicare up and running (and this was in the 1960s, before personal computers, the internet, and an existing Medicare system), and it only took Clinton 3 months to get SCHIP up and running when it passed in 1997. So why do Obama and the Democrats want to let 200,000 people die before giving us “universal coverage?”
We could do absolutely nothing for the next three years and still easily beat Obama’s Jan 1, 2014 commencement date (between now and then will be a longer period of time than between Pearl Harbor and the end of World War II). All we’d have to do is pass a bill by February 2013, and then get the system up and running at the same pace that LBJ got Medicare up and running in the 1960s.
Kucinich is right, this bill is dog shit.
@mclaren: Shouldn’t you be happy about that? Weren’t you a bill-killer?
Kucinich is right, this bill is dog shit.
Umm no. And Kucinich’s alternative is to wait for things to get worse than they are now so that we can pass another bill in the future. Guess what? Same number of dead folks if not more.
More importantly this bill doesn’t provide universal care but inform me when the Medicaid expansion and the individual health insurance market reforms start again? Oh, wait, you have no idea, right?
He’s more of a cop-killer than a bill-killer
@Ailuridae: Don’t worry, I know all about Obama’s ‘stopgap’ measure:
Yeah, we’ll see how far that 5 billion dollars over 4 years goes to provide people with affordable coverage. It’s pretty sad that the “immediate” reform for the uninsured that Obama has to show for his bill is a John McCain proposal, except that even the inadequate McCain proposal had twice as much funding.
I didn’t ask you about the high risk pool. I asked you two direct questions wholly unrelated.
When do the Medicaid expansion and individual health market reforms start?
Just speculation, but you have to wonder if certain parts of labor has told certain members in Congress that they will oppose the bill because of the excise tax so long as Obama has not recess appointed the pending appointements. His next opportunity is 3/29.
You have 2 waiverers in the extreme southern edge of the media market and Kucinich. That is why he is coming here.
This has been written about a million times. The bill has to be revenue neutral to be permanent. The bill is $900 billion dollars. Part of the delay is to increase revenues to offset outlays. Even countries that have large single-payer systems do so on a revenue neutral basis.
By comparison, SCHip was a $40 billion over 10 years.
Exactly, goin to kleveland for krack-pot kucinich would be a waste of time.
I wonder about that. After my original post I read that labor is threatening to take out people who vote against it. IMO Dennis is not as safe in that seat from a primary challage as some may assume and with parts of the Democratic business and Jewish communities dying to take him out (and actually tried last time) you have to wonder what would happen if labor suddenly turned on him. It may be Dennis suddenly wakes up and realizes his friendship with Sean Penn and Shirley Mclain and the fact his wife is hot isn’t going to do jack for him if all these other forces suddenly align to take him out.
The weirdest part of this whole debate is this: the expansion of Medicaid has gone completely under the radar. I’ve decided this is a good thing.
I thought that would be the line of attack for the GOP. I thought Democrats would have trouble defending it: it’s tough to defend the working poor on television, no one in media really cares, and the truth is working poor don’t vote in anything like the numbers that middle or upper class do.
But Democrats who aren’t voting for the bill don’t want to mention the Medicaid expansion, for obvious reasons, and Democrats who are voting for the bill decided (wisely, I think) to focus on the parts of the bill that apply to people who have health insurance, because most people have health insurance, and 94% of people with college degrees have health insurance.
But working poor are really in a depression, not a recession. The unemployment rate for college educated isn’t all that high. It’s around 6%, according to Calculated Risk, and people with post-grad degrees are at (essentially) full employment. Unemployment is at 25% for those without a high school diploma and it’s not much better for those with a high school diploma.
They usually go under the radar. They have in the discussion of unemployment, where everyone is pretending the pain is shared, and it’s not. People without a college degree are bearing the brunt of the recession.
In this single instance, the fact that no one talks about the working poor or the expansion of Medicaid actually helped their case. They went under the radar in a good way, for once. They never came up as a target, because they never came up at all.
@kay: Well said, and factually accurate.
Funny how Kucinich doesn’t move to a country with single-payer. In fact his hwat wife is from England, so he could comfortably move there.
14 friggin years in Congress and he hasn’t passed a single bill.
Haven’t you heard? The working poor will become slaves to Aetna!
It’s not just Medicaid. It’s pretty much everyone that is up to 400% of the Federal poverty line. The House subsidies and cost-sharing limits are better, sure, but even under the Senate version a thirty year old individual making 16k a year will have their cost-sharing extremely limited (so they won’t be priced out of everything except high deductible junk insurance) and have their premium costs subsidized out the wazoo.
If that person picked a plan with a 2.5k annual premium, which is close to the premium cap and something that in no way they could afford now, that premium would be subsidized by %75 or so. Under the Obama alternative, which I think is safe to say is close to the reconciliation amendment that’s gonna be on the table, its even lower. It’d be something like 40 bucks a month for insurance that actually has to cover care. And that amount decreases as they get older, because the subsidizes increase with the age of the enrollee.
When I tell Bill Killers this, they look at me like I have three heads or something.
I don’t necessarily blame hippy bloggers for this. Well, I do… but not directly. There are some Single Payer advocates out there that are deliberately spreading propaganda designed to appeal to the emotional sensibilities of Progressives. I saw Dennis Kucinich say somewhere that the bill forces poor people into high deductible plans that they can’t afford, which is a huge fucking lie and he knows it. But we got a lot of fellow leftists and center-leftists who fall for appeals to authority and hero worship as much as wingers, so they’ll just repeat those talking points without any kind of critical analysis.
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
Saw that this morning on ABC and laughed about it all of the way to work.
Jihad Jane. Yeah man. That is covert.
I saw the Calculated Risk graph on education distribution among the unemployed, yesterday, on Andrew Sullivan.
It’s really striking. Unemployment is only at crisis levels for those without a college degree.
I saw the same data on CNN months ago, and wondered at the time why it wasn’t more widely discussed.
If it’s 5-6% for those with a college degree, why do we spend the majority of time talking about the unemployed who have a college degree? They’re not really in bad shape. 6% isn’t a “crisis”.
Yet most of the “human interest” unemployment stories in media are about managers or professionals or technical people. People with college degrees (probably). Shouldn’t we be talking about the people who are at 25% unemployment?
I’m still wondering.
Thanks. The problem for me is this: they are discrediting themselves, to me. I assume the GOP are going to lie about the bill, but I started this assuming people like Dennis K. would not lie, and they have. It’s not just lies. It’s omissions.
On a related note: this is a pain in the ass request, but can you link me to something specifically on Medicaid? I know it will be tweaked by states, but I can’t find the Medicaid cut-off in the Senate bill, and I really can’t go wading through there again, because it makes me cranky.
I use a “150% of poverty level, 5% of gross” formula in my practice for Medical Support Orders, which are a state mandate for health insurance for children.
I’m looking for something like that. 2 numbers, Medicaid, Senate bill.
If it’s ONE number, that’s better! Is that available? Can anyone pull that out of the legislation, or does it have to go to the states?
Isn’t it the best?
Awready happened at 118.
See, there you go using things like “history” and “reality” and “facts.” We’re Americans! Just because no healthcare system in the world has gone directly from private insurance to single payer in one fell swoop with a single piece of legislation doesn’t mean we can’t.
Is anyone surprised that NR has no idea what s/he’s talking about when it comes to Medicare?
Oh, and NR? Medicare didn’t magically appear in the years between 1964 and 1965. It was bandied around for 40 years before it was finally enacted. So to say it magically appeared within a year of being passed is dishonest, to say the least.
Yeah, and he came in after the House bank scandal so he probably hasn’t passed a check either.
And just because we have never wiped out an industry, except the liquor industry in a spasm of religious insanity,
doesn’t mean we can’t get the insurance boys in a New York minute.
Can someone figure out how this is Obama’s secret plan to not get healthcare done? Why are they delaying this? Do the Democratic party members all secretly want to lose mid-terms?
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
In the larger sense yes, in that they initiated the process and then sat back for several months issuing deadlines, knowing full well that Congress is full of Republican obstructionists, conservadem assholes, blue dogs, Kucinich progressives, Stupak anti-abortionists, and tens of thousands of lobbyists. As if one of the most complicated and contentious piece of legislation in history was going to just jump out of that stew pot at the snap of the President’s fingers. Rahmbama finally figured out in September that the President needed to get more engaged in the process, seeing as he started it in the first place, but that was after spotting the industry lobbyists and death panel lunatics a half year’s head start. So, bad stategery from the White House at the start, though they’ve been doing a little better in recent months.
There seem to be a lot of people that think the House is just dragging its feet because it likes to do nothing. Well, there might be a little truth in that, but the real reason is because there are pretencious fucks like Kusinich who will only vote for a bill that only about 15% of the current Congress will vote for, and fucks like Stupak who want their pet issue resolved in this bill because they know they have the rest of their caucus by their collective nuts and ovaries.
Don’t blame Pelosi, blame those fucks. Call them and give them a piece of your mind! Fuck ’em if you aren’t in their district. They are fucking up everybody’s district. Call them and tell them (politely) that they need to get over themselves and get this damn thing passed.
If you don’t have the votes, you must acquit –err– I mean delay until you do. It’s a damn sad, sad fact. But putting this up to a vote and then losing the vote is a hell of a lot worse!