How do we give this woman a hand:
A former teacher and county commissioner will challenge Rep. Bart Stupak in the Aug. 3 Democratic primary in Michigan, the Detroit Free Press reported this afternoon.
Connie Saltonsall, a former commissioner in Charlevoix County, tells the paper she’s challenging Stupak over his refusal to allow health care reform to move forward without abortion language attached.
“I believe that he has a right to his personal, religious views, but to deprive his constituents of needed health care reform because of those views is reprehensible,” Saltonsall told the Free Press.
If you want to concern troll me about her not being able to win the general, I don’t care. Health care is the signature Democratic legislation for decades, and it is in trouble because of this jackass running against a settled part of the party platform. There has to be some concept of accountability in the caucus. He can be anti-abortion all he wants. He just can’t make shit up to destroy his own party. That isn’t being a purity troll, that is merely enforcing the very basic level of party discipline.
And for the love of everything holy, why are other Democrats not repeating, daily, what Saltonsall said: “I believe that he has a right to his personal, religious views, but to deprive his constituents of needed health care reform because of those views is reprehensible.”
It really IS that simple.
*** Update ***
Heh. Get back to me when I am screaming for the head of Bernie Sanders or Lynn Woolsey. But Stupak? Game on.
mr. whipple
Awesome. How can I give some $?
demimondian
I’m seeing these odd visions of…a Balloon Juice thermometer? I don’t fully understand the visions, but that’s what the FSM has given me as guidance…
mcc
It says her first step is to get 1000 signatures within her district.
She doesn’t seem to have anything like a web presence. Maybe the first step should be someone hooking her up with whoever could effectively get her one.
robertdsc
Before folks start to give, could they please do some homework on the challenger like policy positions and the like?
That said, I hope she boots Stupak out. Give his ass a rusty pitchforking in the best AsiangrrlMN style.
Zifnab
Throw up an ActBlue page. This spat of rebellion alone is worth $20. I’ll be happy to donate more once I see a platform past “FU Bart Stupak”.
mr. whipple
@robertdsc:
Good thinking, I got carried away. I want to know her complete tickle history.
dr. bloor
Stupak better be getting his next career set up as he squeezes everything he can out of his fifteen minutes, ’cause if he doesn’t fall in line I suspect he’s going to find that Pelosi deals with this sort of shit in a very different manner than we’ve seen from the likes of Harry Reid.
qwerty42
Stupak represents Michigan’s 1st District. This includes the entire UP and the top of the Lower Peninsula as well. Not sure what their sentiments might be. I’ll let others find links to Da Yoopers.
The Populist
Gotta find her website and donate. Yay!
Jeff Fecke
Whether or not Stupak can be beat in a primary, we should help out those who want to.
Heck, I’m planning on donating to his GOP opponent in the fall if need be; Like Holy Joe Lieberman, he’s a Democrat we’d be better off without.
MikeJ
MI-1 is the UP and the top of the mitten. “Big” towns? Marquette and Sault Ste. Marie. If I were closer I’d go canvas for ballot sigs, but it’s a bit of a trek from the west coast.
edit: Damn you faster typing qwerty! I guess your name has aided you.
Tom Hilton
Looks like she ran in 2008. Have to see if there’s anything on her from that run. If she isn’t completely terrible (always a possibility), I’ll donate.
BombIranForChrist
Yeah, I think this is a no-brainer. The only way to get a politician’s attention is to put his ass on the line. It’s amazing how quickly “principles” evolve when it’s a politician’s ass, instead of his constituents ass, that he is saving.
Mike Kay
but, but, but…. he’s standing on principal, just like the anti-choice Dennis Kucinich.
Tom Hilton
Moderation hell. She ran in 2008, is the gist.
dave anderson
As mentioned upthread, we need a plan.
1) Find out if she is a LaRouchie or Truther
2) If 1 is a double NO, find her website
3) Find ActBlue page
4) Donate
Warren Terra
Google is pretty sure her name is actually Connie Saltonstall, not Connie Saltonsall as your blockquote has it. No obvious campaign site or ActBlue page yet.
Elisabeth
@BombIranForChrist:
This.
At least make Stupak think.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
Not on Stupak, he needs to go, and some primary pressure at least might loosen this tight ass dickweed to back off a little from his bullshit on abortion language in HCR. This dude is a real shitweasel, first telling people yesterday he was ready for compromise language, and then this dollop of shit/
I do disagree about Lincoln and dems trying to get rid of her.
Eric
Hell. Yes.
Er, I mean, John Cole is shrill, &c.
Allan
@qwerty42:
Beer and ice fishing.
Tom Hilton
My mistake–she didn’t run for congress, she ran for state representative. Sounds good: Sierra Club endorsement, “strong proponent of universal health care”, etc.
AnotherBruce
I’ll give some cash, but I want to make sure that she’s a viable candidate. Former teacher and county commissioner sounds like a good start.
I like this trend, liberals are finally learning how to play ball after somehow forgetting how it’s done for the last couple of decades.
demimondian
So, here’s some quick data.
The M listI (which supported the EMILY’s list slate in 2008) listed her as one of their endorsed candidates. That means she got the EMILY’s list nod, which tends to rule out her being a LaRouchie or a Truther, and suggests that she was at least nominally pro-choice in 2008.
Makewi
It helps you to frame the issue in such a way so as to give it more weight, eh John? Because I was unaware that the Stupak amendment sought to eliminate abortion or that the Democratic platform included taxpayer funded abortions.
demimondian
@Makewi: Are you aware of the difference between your mouth and your anus? I ask sincerely — the rest of us have a hard time telling.
Linda Featheringill
I went to the Free Press article. Apparently, her name is Saltonstall. [not as bad as Featheringill, though]
The lady does not have a website, from what I can tell.
She has to get something together and up. The greater hippie community [that is us] cannot vote for her but we can help defray some of the expenses.
Midnight Marauder
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
Wait a minute. You don’t think Blanche Lincoln should be facing a primary challenge in the upcoming election? I have to say, that’s one of the most nonsensical things I have ever seen from you, which is to say, it’s a comment in voluminous company.
kansi
Thank you, John. More of this, please.
Makewi
@demimondian:
When confronted by an actual point, be sure to hide behind your grade school taunts. Bravo.
I know contrary opinions and pointing out inconvenient truths make you squirm, but do try to be adult about it.
Tax Analyst
@mcc:
I’m with mcc & robertdsc on this. When she’s got the qualifying signatures and can demonstrate something resembling some sort of actual campaign platform, etc., I could consider putting in some scratch. Otherwise I’ve got my own windmills to tilt at.
qwerty42
@Allan: The classic Second Week of Deer Camp.
Aaron S. Veenstra
I was born and raised in the U.P. Winning there does not require anything like Stupak’s level of anti-choice vehemence. I don’t know anything about this woman, but her opposing Stupak’s amendment doesn’t mean anything for her chances in the general. That’s not to say she’s a good or bad candidate otherwise; I have no idea. But, if she looks decent I’ll send some money her way, and encourage my still-in-the-district dad to do the same.
Makewi
I think her website should say something like “Whaddya mean you don’t want to pay for my abortion!” or “Abortion will always be a more important issue than health care to Democrats, and if you don’t like it you can go f**k yourself!”. How about, “Democrats, making you pay to kill babies since 20xx)”
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Midnight Marauder:
No. I didn’t say I didn’t want her to not have a primary challenge, I said I disagree that we, or out of Arkansas dems should mount an effort to get rid of her. I was referring specifically to using Actblue, but obviously that is not my call, but I will not contribute to it or join in blogosphere effort to beat her. Mainly, because other than HCR, and her specific objection to a PO, she has a pretty good voting effort on prog issues for a red state dem senator. She did not join a repub filibuster on that, and has not to my knowledge done so on any recent bill.
qwerty42
@Makewi:
…do try to be adult about it…
Just a thought.
iLarynx
Amen. More of this please. Etc., etc. And I don’t care if she turns out to be a truther (though it looks like she has the right agenda at first blush). Stupak needs some heat on his backside. He needs to be looking over his shoulder. Might cause him to lose his focus on being an asshole for a while.
CalD
I got no problem with this. This isn’t a fight over throwing the baby out with the public option. Stupak has come within ace of completely derailing action on a central plank of the Democratic party platform over a fucking semantic technicality and his district is only R+3. Screw him.
Are we going after Dennis Kucinich over his no vote as well. ;-)
PS: Speaking of Kucinich, does anyone but me suspect a connection between his HCR vote and him getting to bring his Afghanistan pull-out bill to the house floor for debate this week? The timing seems odd and I’m hard pressed to think of anything he’s got that Mrs. Pelosi might want more than that at this particular moment…
seabe
I’ll quote a friend of mine on this issue:
“it won’t work. There’s a reason why Stupak was elected in the first place. He’s perfect for his district, both stylistically and ideologically.
Primarying him won’t solve the problem, anyway. The problem was never the Stupak amendment itself; it was how unexpected it was. Stupak is a Pro-life Catholic activist’s best friend: He’s a mainstream Democrat on every single issue…except abortion. In fact, he’s a far-right lunatic on abortion. That’s why he was so dangerous. We weren’t ready for it. So a primary challenge won’t solve the problem. C-Street will just find someone else: Zack Space, Marcy Kaptur, Stephen Lynch, the list goes on and on.
So the solution isn’t primarying him. We just have to be better prepared for this in the future. You need to understand districts and their representatives well enough to see the problems that might arise in advance. Then you can take necessary action. It’s hard, and I don’t know exactly how something like that can be streamlined into an easy message for activists, but I think that will be the only way.”
kth
It seems to be a safe seat; Stupak hasn’t won less than 60% of the vote since 2000. So there wouldn’t seem to be that much danger of the seat flipping if Stupak were to somehow lose the primary.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Makewi:
Stay the fuck away from my reproductive choices idiot. Religious beliefs (and abortion is one of those) have no place in legislation. End of story. How about I establish a religion where it is considered an act of worship to the FSM to slap the shit out of other religious bigots, would you support legislation that would make slapping the shit out of other religious bigots “freedom of religion” and not a crime?
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Midnight Marauder:
Sort of sounds like an insult. But that’s ok.
Makewi
@Litlebritdifrnt:
You don’t even understand the issue, and yet I’m the idiot. Hey, here’s a thought, why not get really mad about something that’s not even being discussed. Idiot.
Litlebritdifrnt
OT but interesting from the BBC World twitter feed
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8558958.stm
Ex-MI5 chief says “US concealed suspect mistreatment”
Tom Hilton
@CalD: My understanding is that we’re never getting Kucinich’s vote under any circumstances. (It isn’t single-payer, you see. Also: only 36% unicorn, and he won’t vote for anything less than 99%.)
And yes, I’ll donate to a primary challenger for Dennis “Narcisssistic Douchebag” Kucinich.
mr. whipple
“No. I didn’t say I didn’t want her to not have a primary challenge, I said I disagree that we, or out of Arkansas dems should mount an effort to get rid of her.”
Dood, she was also for the EFCA, before she was against it. She’s a scourge, and I’m ashamed to say I gave her money before, so I sure can give to someone else now who will hopefully be better for Merka.
One might say I shouldn’t have any say in who Arkansas elects, but in the end her votes affect the entire country. She’s gotta go.
mr. whipple
“And yes, I’ll donate to a primary challenger for Dennis “Narcisssistic Douchebag” Kucinich.”
I’ll knock on doors and kick unicorns.
Makewi
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I don’t think my last comment went far enough to pointing out how ill informed and idiotic your comment was. Good show.
DarrenG
@Makewi:
Projection much?
You clearly have no idea what the Stupak amendment says, or what it would do if passed (hint: Stupak != Hyde), yet you feel the need to troll this thread with ridiculous wingnut “zomg, the libruls just wanna kill babies!” nonsense.
I know it’s been making the rounds in reference to Massa’s meltdown, but this seems equally apropos to your posts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNHuqHWefU
Midnight Marauder
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
See, I was kind of with you on this, until it got towards the end, where your reasons are belied by events in recent months. Outside of her atrocious performance during the HCR boondoggle, let us not forget about her siding with Sen. Lisa Murkowski in her attempts to prevent the EPA from regulating greenhouse gases–you know, since the Senate is inherently incapable of doing something about it. So assuming that the final push of HCR is successful (and I think it’s just a matter of what form the “finished” product comes in now) and the Senate moves on to the rest of its legislative to-do list (which will, hopefully, feature a climate change bill of some kind), what are we going to say about Lincoln’s continued Obstructionist Asshole antics, particularly as they stretch deeper and deeper into Election Season?
Because I hear where you are coming from in saying that she has a “pretty good voting effort on progressive issues” for a Democratic senator in a red state. But I don’t think you can make that argument with the same force or credibility that you could have a year ago, or even 6 months ago, now that she’s releasing ads shitting all over the Democratic Party as a whole, or defiantly threatening to join with Republicans to undermine any attempt at combating climate change in this country.
Her intransigent behavior has become more than just a problem for the millions of Arkansans in need of a multitude of services and reforms. Sen. Lincoln has turned herself into an obstinate and incompetent figure who has decided that she will obstruct the progress of the country as a whole if it will buy her a precious few more seconds on the sinking ship that is her political career.
If that’s how she wants to play the game, then we’ll play the game that way. She lost the right to play the “This is between me and the good people of my state” card a long time ago.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Makewi: Please explain to me with your vast wisdom why I do not understand “the issue” the issue being that a Catholic is using his religion (ie the worship of a mythical being) to hold up reform that is desperately needed in this Country by people who are dying because of lack of health care. Please explain to me why a fetus is more important than a living, breathing adult, walking about on the Earth who is being allowed to die because of no health insurance. I shall await your “pro (only a fetus) life” response.
Makewi
@DarrenG:
To be fair, libruls do want to kill babies and having had great success with that, they now want others to pay for it.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@mr. whipple: I posted her voting record the other day, so I’m not going to do it again. She is doing what she’s doing to win in a very red state that seems to be getting redder every day. If you or anyone else thinks a liberal democrat right now can win in that state, you are nuts. Senate seats are precious and there are a lot fewer of them than the house. You start going after every conservadem that takes some votes you don’t like as a liberal, then the wingers get the senate back and no more liberal SCOTUS appointees, and Clinton era gooper light bills will be the only ones that gets passed.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Makewi:
Do you have a womb? If not then STFU.
demkat620
OT but, sometimes I think this country has become too stupid to survive.
Did y’all see this?
And that is one of the leading voices in the conservative movement. These assclowns should change their name to the Gimmick party.
That’s all they have. Gimmicks. Back wax, rock salt, Gas Tax Holiday, Caribou Barbie, TABOR, the Iraq War.
You name it, they don’t have a policy to fix it, just a gimmick to make it worse.
bemused
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Amen. Although, I would amend that to womb or not, STFU.
Makewi
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Please explain to me why abortion needs to be funded by taxpayer dollars? The ones who are “holding up” health care are those who insist that this is a requirement. So congratulations, it is you and your insistence that you get your way that is causing people to die due to lack of health care. It’s not enough for you that abortion is legal, now you want to make sure that those who disagree with the practice get to pay for it as well.
Sorry bob, I know you’re going to die of cancer due to your lack of health care insurance but hold your chin up because Sandy over there insists that we make all those dirty Catholics pay for her abortions.
Midnight Marauder
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
By no means, General. You do have a tendency to say a lot of outrageous, nonsensical things on occasion, but it’s one of the reasons I love you, big guy. I just wanted some clarification on what you were saying there, since I was genuinely surprised to read that. But it makes much more sense now.
mr. whipple
I totally understand where yer coming from, but I’m not one for ideological purity. It’s one thing to vote ‘no’, it’s another to frame the reason with RW frames and make other dems look like crap. In this sense, Kucinich is as bad as she is, and I’ll donate to opponents of both.
In addition, her approval rating amongst Democrats in her own state sucks, so they apparently don’t think she’s representing them well, either.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Midnight Marauder: Okay, then you will get a bonafide wingnut for senator in that state. It is not unusual for a red state dem senator to swing right before a tough election. And there are none tougher than a mid term in the first term of a new president of the same party. Go for it if you want to, I won’t be joining you,. because it’s just dumb.
demkat620
@Makewi: Please explain to me what part of the legislation overturns the Hyde Amendment?
Makewi
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Classic. STFU she explained. It’s a real puzzle why you guys don’t last long once you get in power.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@mr. whipple: She has cut in half the wingnut lead in just the past month. Never underestimate the power of incumbency.
demimondian
@Makewi: Since you’re just shitting out lies about the issue, I don’t see why anyone should treat you as other than the vandal you are.
So, I ask again, do you know the difference between your mouth and your anus? Of course, you probably don’t recognize the literary reference — I’ve found that a lot of you who purport to be conservatives don’t actually know much Western Literature.
DarrenG
@Makewi:
(I know I really shouldn’t since there’s a 94.3% chance Makewi’s just an ineducable troll, but on the off chance anyone is taking him/her seriously…)
The Stupak amendment does not, in fact, ban using taxpayer dollars to fund abortions. That’s the Hyde amendment, which is already law, and included by reference in the bill Stupak is cock-blocking.
The Stupak amendment bars women from purchasing health coverage that covers abortions with their own, private money.
Bubba Dave
@MikeJ:
Also Houghton– Michigan Tech should be worth a few young voters, and as of last summer the OfA storefront office appeared to still be open.
The whole UP is a mess, economically speaking, and has been for decades. There ought to be room for solid populist voice up there, although anyone who represents that area is probably going to be fairly conservative on hunting issues and the like.
I vacation up there every summer, and if she’s the nominee I’ll knock on as many doors as her campaign wants to give a friendly Texan….
kid bitzer
@52–
hey, makewi?
fuck you.
okay? if you come here and tell lies about what us liberals want to do, then fuck you. you’re a lying sack of shit.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Midnight Marauder:
So do you, but i loves ya anyways.:)
Chauncey Baker
Stupak’s district (MI-01) is a huge one in MI. Geographically, it’s about half the state, all of the UP and big chunk of the Eastern LP. Obviously very, very rural. If you look at the GOS 2008 Presidential results you might think that it’s a tough fight for a liberal Democrat. It was really a tough fight for a black man (no offense), many 51-47 decisions in the counties that make up MI-01.
I grew up in MI-02, the West Coast of MI. It thrives on tourism. Accommodating “others” is a way of life for Michiganders. It’s a pretty fucking liberal viewpoint. For example, I live in Bumble-fuck IN, a college town, no organic food store. The town I grew up in has less than 2,500 people and has an organic food store and the local grocery has a micro-brew beer sample that is amazing.
Keep in mind that this state put an fairly unpopular Democratic Governor back in office rather than have Dick DeVos (related to the Amway founders) take the reigns of the state. The DeVos family is from Kent County (Grand Rapids) and Kent county barely went for Obama, although the surrounding areas went for McCain.
The real fucking crazies live in MI-02, in Holland. My soon-to-be-wife is trying to compose a blistering commentary against the people who live in Holland, MI. I’m more willing to take a more direct, succinct approach: Dutch Reform, Calvinists. Their unspoken motto: If you ain’t white, you ain’t right.
Just to calibrate the crazy, maybe you remember a company called Xe? No? It used to be called Blackwater. The CEO is Erik Prince, birthplace Holland, MI. Father served in Congress representing MI-02.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Makewi:
Because people like you do not like Welfare Mothers, because people like you do not like to feed children once they have left the confines of the womb, because people like you do not like to provide health care to said children, because people like you could not give a shit what happens to a child once the umbilical cord is cut, because people like you would prefer that a child die rather than provide preventative care and decent health care, because people like you would rather said child never reach adulthood due to a lack of healthcare, because people like you preserve the rights of a loosely joined collection of cells over a living, breathing, working, struggling, striving, fully formed human being. THAT IS WHY!
mr. whipple
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
She’s starting to have some second thoughts about the wisdom of running as a wingnut:
“No one could’ve predicted that a primary challenge would turn Blanche Lincoln into a better Democrat.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/3/9/844399/-AR-Sen:-Look-who-is-running-scared
Like I said, her approval rating among Democrats in AR sucks.
Elisabeth
@Makewi:
No, asshole, we think a woman ought to have the right to choose.
MikeJ
@Bubba Dave:
As a lifelong liberal with elk in the freezer, I’m not really sure what you mean by “conservative on hunting issues.”
jl
If this becomes official, someone post a link and I will contribute…. just as long as I can still complain about the ‘John Coles of the left’ working against the Holy Democratic Establishment on this blog.
Bad Horse's Filly
Great, great, great! Say often! This is what frustrates me about the Dems. The inability to have a solid, clear message when they are often handed to them on a platter.
Also: Dan Pfieffer’s blog has been fun to read lately:
So That’s Why They’re Raising Rates So Much …
bemused
@DarrenG:
R’s are consistent at least. They detest the idea of taxpayer funding for abortions and taxpayer funding for assistance to babies/children in need equally.
Napoleon
Lincoln needs to go. It is one thing to vote against something it is another to threaten to vote against closure and bad mouth core positions of the Dem party. I plan to continue to contribute to her opponent as long as he seems viable.
Jay C
Uhh, John, just WHAT political Party were you talking about, here? One of the ones in THIS country???
CalD
@Tom Hilton:
Funny thing is, prior to his presidential vanity campaign in 2004 — at which point he “had a journey” on the subject, according to his campaign web site — Kucinich had always been one of the most reliable pro-LIFE votes in the House. It would have been really interesting to hear his thoughts on all this if this bill had come up then.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@mr. whipple: Like I said, I am all for primary challenges. They often have good effects and focus the minds of straying dem ccer’s. It’s just ginning up a movement on the web that I am leery of. Except for those dems in the state at issue. They can do what they want, it’s their state. And by most accounts, Lincoln would not have obstructed the medicare buy in compromise, Lieberman alone is the culprit for that.
Makewi
@DarrenG:
Bullshit DarrenG. Here’s the actual text, why not try reading it yourself? Then tell me exactly where it does what you claim it does. Better yet, tell me where it does anything other than what I’ve claimed.
Midnight Marauder
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
Again, I think there is a major difference between “swinging to the right” before a tough election, and outright sabotage of your supposed party’s priorities. And this is another thing about the dichotomy you’re setting up here. Right now, Lincoln is against reconciliation for HCR, against the EFCA, and against any kind of cap-and-trade/climate change bill; I am sure she will be equally recalcitrant if/when Immigration Reform comes to the surface. She just released her first ad of the election season, and it was all about how she has nothing to do with those evil, dirty Democrats in Washington. When she asked her question to President Obama during his Question Time with the Senate Democrats a month or so ago, this is what she said:
You do know what she classifies as “extremes,” right? Things like HCR, climate change legislation, any kind of coherent and functional finance reform.
I ask you, with this information on the table, what are the major differences between her and a wingnut in the same position? Because from where I’m looking, the differences don’t appear to be all that substantial.
demimondian
@jl: Just make sure you don’t contribute under your screen name. Then nobody will ever find out, and you’ll be JUST FINE.
Makewi
@Elisabeth:
Another idiot who wants to pretend that this issue is about whether a woman would lose the right to choose (to kill her unborn child). It isn’t, but keep pretending.
demimondian
@Midnight Marauder: In addition, she has been a consistent vote against late-term abortions, even when medically necessary — and that’s been the case for years. She’s been a huge supporter of Joe Lieberman, even after the 2008 election.
She has to go.
CalD
@Napoleon:
Nope. Sorry. We need every Democrat we can hang onto in the Senate — even the stinkier ones. And I seriously doubt anyone’s going to win a senate race in Arkansas running to the left of Blanche Lincoln.
Tom Hilton
@CalD: Just to be clear, I would be all for a primary challenge to Kucinich even if he weren’t quote-pro-life-unquote. His staunch support for the status quo on healthcare (i.e., his opposition to anything short of single-payer-with-added-unicorns) makes him utterly worthless.
MikeJ
Taegan Goddard’s QOTD:
“It’s hard for us to understand, if I can put it that way.”
— United Kingdom conservative party leader David Cameron, quoted by Vanity Fair, on Sarah Palin’s popularity.
mr. whipple
Why? How is it any different than a movement ginned up by say, Labor, or Emily’s List or The Siera Club or the Club for Growth?
And BTW, the first 3 groups, IIRC, have pulled their support of Lincoln because she hasn’t come through for them.
Makewi
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I see, no now you want to change your earlier assertion and admit that you do want to force people to pay for abortions? I appreciate your honesty. My answer is no. However, you may feel free to pay for anyone’s abortion that you wish. In fact, why not start up an organization to do just that.
So then, you admit that it is those who are trying to force others to pay to kill the unborn that is holding up this reform. Quite selfish of you if I do say so.
DarrenG
@Makewi:
Section 265.B.2, as is clearly explained in any number of articles on the issue, including the one already linked to you in response by demimondian.
Nor have you answered the question about the Hyde Amendment already posed to you.
Makewi
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I do find it laughable how you are reduced to a rant which pretends to speculate about what “people like me” believe or care about. I suspect you only say you care about those things in any case, and that in reality you only care about yourself.
Napoleon
@CalD:
No we don’t. The only way we get better Democrats down the road that allow us to get things done is to take some existing dems out and Lincoln needs to be first. That is the only way we are ever going to get the Dem caucus to change.
Lincoln has to go.
Elisabeth
@Makewi:
Yeah, I’ve made it; been called an idiot by an idiot.
If the language Stupak and Co want isn’t covered by the Hyde Amendment already why are they fighting like hell to incorporate it? Right, because they are trying to find all avenues to prevent women from getting a legal procedure. One, by the way, I am against. But what another woman does is her business, not mine (and sure as Hell not that of some goofballs in Washington).
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Midnight Marauder:
When she starts joining wingnut filibusters like Nelson is currently doing, then she is obstructing the dem agenda. Otherwise, she is just one vote. A case in point, if her seat had been held by a gooper for the HCR senate vote, there would have been none. The gooper senator from Arkansas would have been the 41st GOP vote to defeat cloture and we would have nothing. That is the difference, and sure as shit, somewhere down the line if she is replaced by a real wingnut, something will get defeated by one vote, where a dem in that seat could have pushed it over the line. You just don’t throw away senate seats like you might in the House, they are too important. IMHO>
Midnight Marauder
@CalD:
But is Bill Halter really “running to the left” in the traditional sense that we all here usually think about? Because I would argue that he hasn’t been doing that at all, and instead, has been making very targeted moves to box in Lincoln and her unpopular opinions on an array of positions; just as one would attempt to do if they were running an insurgent campaign of this nature in a place as conservative as Arkansas is right now. Positions like the ones she has on HCR, the public option, the EFCA, and eventually, financial reform. Halter doesn’t have to turn into some kind of crazy flaming liberal, and I don’t think anyone is seriously under the impression that he’s going to do that.
Tax Analyst
@Makewi:
I usually try and stay out of your foolishness, but Christ-on-John-Cole’s-healing shoulder, that is an asinine and wholly inaccurate statement.
demimondian
@Midnight Marauder: I personally don’t think the Halter will be much of a “progressive”. Then again, I don’t think he’s going to win in November, even if he gets the nod in the primary. Simply put, he isn’t Mike Beebe, and Beebe isn’t stupid enough to run this year.
gwangung
@Elisabeth: Makewi has ALWAYS said that she just throws up shit without thinking about.
Her technique really hasn’t improved much.
But let’s not make this thread about her, as much as she craves it….
demimondian
@General Egali Tarian Stuck: Here’s the key point. Blanche Lincoln is not going to win in November. if I thought she had a bat’s chance in Hell of winning, I’d be cheering her on — and I have deep roots in that state.
She doesn’t. She’s *going* to lose; the only question is to whom. In that case, I have no reason to not do some housecleaning in the primary.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@mr. whipple: Because we aren’t a member of those groups. The internet is our realm, and my sentiment would include those groups, if I was part of them.
Listen. I understand the bad feeling towards Lincoln, cause I have the same ones. I want all the BD’s to behave different than they do sometimes. But it is not a zero sum game. You sacrifice the only real chance to keep a gooper out of a senate seat they would likely have without an incumbent and the advantages of that, and you have only lost, not won anything. The exception is if she or anyone else starts joining winger filibuster, then that equation changes.
Makewi
@DarrenG:
There is nothing in that section that states that a person can’t use their own money for supplemental coverage which would cover abortions. Nothing. You are either dishonest; don’t understand what is being said in that section, or (my guess) taking someone else’s word for it that that section bars anything other than funds whose original source is the federal government. Try again, and this time be specific or admit you are wrong.
The Hyde amendment has it’s own limitations. One of them being that it only prohibits funding for abortion that come from the normal appropriations for the HHS. Since Obama Care doesn’t secure it’s funding in this way, Hyde would not apply. I’d tell you to look it up yourself, but you didn’t really shine last time I suggested that.
Elisabeth
@gwangung:
I generally hate to get involved with folks like that. I’m just not in the mood for it today.
Thanks for the reminder, though. :)
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@demimondian: I don’t agree that she is certain to lose. The last polling I saw she cut the gooper lead in half. And the new guy, or LT Governor is way back in the polls, and he is pretty well known. Incumbency has a lot of pull with voters, and it is way too early to write her off because she is currently behind. You can. I’m not.
Makewi
@Elisabeth:
See my response to Darren, and then explain to me how an issue of funding for abortion equates to an attempt to remove a woman’s right to choose. Or admit you are giving a kneejerk response without understanding the realities.
@gwangung:
I’m giving factual information, and providing the source material to it. I understand why this frightens you.
mr. whipple
@Midnight Marauder:
Here’s the other thing: I think it’s very important for people to fight when they need to fight. For instance, I never thought I’d see Brown win in Ohio, but he’s out there day after day fighting for HCR. People admire that. Now, I know he won’t vote for cap and trade. Ohio is a coal-fired state, and unemployment sucks there, and they’ve already been running commercials against him/it for months.
So, I don’t expect him or anyone else to be pure. But one thing that I don’t think you should ever do is adopt wingnut talking points against your own party. When Brown votes no on cap and trade, he won’t say the Dems that do are idiots beholden to the environmental lobby.
The one thing I’ve learned from watching Lincoln is that there’s no Democrat he isn’t willing to bash, no wingnut talking point she won’t adopt. She’s craven, and I believe, dumber than a sack of hammers.
demimondian
@General Egali Tarian Stuck: Stuck, do you have roots in the state? See, I do. I know that the plural of “anecdotes” isn’t “data”…but I have enough anecdotes at this point that I can be quite sure that she’s a loser in November.
DarrenG
@Makewi:
Here’s the full analysis explaining how the Stupak amendment goes way beyond Hyde and will, in fact, limit women from buying coverage with private funds:
http://www.gwumc.edu/sphhs/departments/healthpolicy/dhp_publications/pub_uploads/dhpPublication_FED314C4-5056-9D20-3DBE77EF6ABF0FED.pdf
Here’s a less wonkish version (contra the URL):
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/11/09/stupak-amendment-jessica/
And as I’ve already mentioned, and as you continue to ignore, the Hyde language is incorporated by reference in the Senate bill and extended to apply to all Federal funds appropriated under the Senate HCR bill.
Midnight Marauder
@demimondian:
I don’t think he will be either, but that’s not really what I’m concerned about here. I’m mainly focused on whether he will be a “better” Democrat than Blanche Lincoln. And, quite frankly, that does not take much.
I think it was too early to write her off 6 months ago. But now…? She.Is.Toast. She has absolutely no chance of winning this seat–and this is what’s really awesome about this situation. Assuming she does win the primary and makes it to the general, who else is looking forward to Lincoln denigrating and denouncing anything and everything put forward by the Democratic Party? This is why I’m throwing my entire weight behind Halter. Because a) Lincoln has no chance of winning this race; and b) her entire campaign is going to be based around how terrible and awful the Democratic Party is for the American people.
She doesn’t need to join a filibuster for her deplorable behavior to have a negative impact on the Democrats chance of success, and more importantly, legitimizing the nonsense coming from the rest of the Obstructionist Assholes in Congress. They don’t need her for that, man.
Jay B.
@mr. whipple:
@Midnight Marauder:
What you guys don’t yet understand is that there is exactly one right and sane answer in these arguments — one that’s exact, perfect and basically unquestionable. And it ain’t yours.
I mean what would the Lt. Governor know about winning a statewide election in Arkansas anyway?
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@demimondian: Then go for it if you are that certain and send money or whatever. Halter won’t win either, the primary and certainly not the general. Put up the Actblue again mr. Cole, it won’t make any difference other than lighten a few wallets. I just stated my opinion and really don’t care very much one way or the other.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Makewi:
Then please feel free to provide to me instances of where “people like you” give any thought to a child once it leaves the birth canal. Seeing as “people like you” have been opposed to every social programme designed to help children and working familes. I have long said that a great way to end this foolishness of the “pro life” movement is to propose a complete ban of abortions as of Jan 1, 2011. Prior to that every person in the US (above the age of 18) has to register as “pro life” or “pro choice”. On Jan 1, 2011 when a woman tests positive for pregnancy she has to sign a statement that given the opportunity she would have an abortion. When she eventually gives birth the baby is given to the first person on the “pro life” roster to raise to adulthood. As of December 2011 all peoples above the age of 18 are again required to register as “pro life” or “pro choice” I can guarantee you that after the “pro choice” advocates have been given a baby to raise in 2011 by December 2011 they will be “pro choice”.
Mnemosyne
@robertdsc:
The nice thing is, having a challenger announce their plans to run can have a salutary effect on a wavering Dem all on its own. Funny how politicians suddenly decide the opinion of their voters is important when the voters look like they might vote them out.
Sometimes the mere threat is all you need, so why not make it?
Gwangung
@Makewi: Awwww…you’re so adorable like this.
Makewi
@DarrenG:
I give you the actual text, simple and readable. You give me 14 pages of speculation in the first link, which does not state in any way that Stupak will restrict women from seeking other sources of funding for abortion. So thanks for that, but I wonder if you bothered to read it yourself, seeing as how you haven’t conceded that point.
Do you concede that Stupak does not prohibit women from seeking funding other than federal to pay for abortions?
As for Hyde, please provide the actual text in Obama Care which states that the Hyde amendment will be applicable, or that the funding for the program will come under the normal appropriation mechanism for HHR.
Thanks.
Just Some Fuckhead
@jl: Hah.
Mnemosyne
I see we have a typical free-spending right-winger here: he’d rather have the government pay $1,000,000 for 18 years of child support of an unwanted child in the foster care system than pay $2,000 for an abortion.
Dude, you can spend your own money that way if you want, but why are you insisting that the rest of us have to spend our hard-earned money on your social programs? Or are you planning to have people abandon unwanted babies in the street to die so you don’t have to worry about any innocent zygotes losing their lives?
Makewi
Just a quick point, I think it’s awesome that anyone would think that an individual women would have enough abortions (thus necessitating the need for coverage to offset the cost), that a whole new secondary market would arise to fill this need.
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I decline your invitation to try to prove to you that I am not the monster you think I am. I do appreciate your need to shift the topic to such after having admitted that forcing others to pay for abortions is something you are absolutely for.
In any case, if anyone would like to prove, via the actual text of Stupak that it would either take away a womans right to choose or even to seek any funding she desires other than federal, please do so. In addition, any link or text snippet of the actual Obama Care bill in which it states plainly that Hyde would be in effect, would be appreciated.
Makewi
@Mnemosyne:
You don’t actually “see” anything. What you do is try to shift the conversation to the part of your fantasy world in which you are comfortable giving opinion. If you wish, I will play along momentarily by calling you a baby killer, so as to help you more fully flesh out your delusions.
Baby killer.
There, feel better?
AnotherBruce
@CalD: You don’t know that, but I suppose listening to the right wing for years has had that effect on a lot of people.
gbear
Hmmm. TBogg has linked to this post.
…and starring John Cole as The Hamsher
He didn’t mention Cole’s earlier link to FDL though.
Makewi
@Gwangung:
Thanks. Feel free to contribute an actual fact if you want. I know feeling superior is nice for you, but you could try to refute something or offer up a contrary fact or something.
Mnemosyne
@Makewi:
You’re trying to shift the conversation to your fantasy world where banning abortion is consequence-free and the only result is happy women and happy babies.
Unfortunately, that’s not reality.
But, hey, you’re not the one who’s going to die because doctors were too afraid to give you cancer treatment or end the ectopic pregnancy that’s killing you, so why should you trouble your beautiful mind thinking about the actual real-world results of the policies that you support when you can build a lovely fantasy world in your head and then impose it on the rest of us?
Ash Can
@Elisabeth:
@Litlebritdifrnt:
She does seem awfully sensitive about this subject, doesn’t she? I mean, inordinately so. Like it’s a raw nerve, or suppressed guilt or something. Things that make you go hmmm…
Mnemosyne
@Makewi:
But I thought that abortion was exactly like the Holocaust and that millions of babies are being murdered every year. Are you saying that’s not true and abortion is actually not the enormous healthcare expense you’re trying to pretend it is?
pattonbt
I dont understand how primaries can be a bad thing ever. If my choice is I have to take a bad democrat or no democrat then I’ve already lost. This is a long game and I’m willing to fight in the primaries to move the party to the center left, not the center right, over time.
After the primaries, well then, reality has to come into play and I could not see myself voting republican ever. But if I am told “well, you cant primary candidate X because we would lose the seat” then what is the point? We cripple the state party by keeping a bad elected official in a position of power and influence thus continuing to retard real progress on center left issues in that state. And then we have an entrenched bad political actor that the national party can really do nothing about. It may not be lose-lose, but it surely is not win.
So why is primary-ing any candidate bad? More and better democrats please.
Mnemosyne
Here’s another of Makewi’s friends: Church excommunicates doctor for performing an abortion on a 9-year-old rape victim.
But I’m sure that child rape victim had it coming and should have been forced to carry that life-threatening pregnancy to term, right, Makewi? If she didn’t want to have her life endangered by a pregnancy, she shouldn’t have let her stepfather rape her.
Elisabeth
@Ash Can:
Only if you care enough to go “hmmm….” :)
I let my grouchy mood overcome my better sense and engaged twice.
Jim C.
I seem to recall a few days back somebody asking why Bart Stupak should care if out of state liberals and Democrats call in to express their displeasure with him and get blown off by his staff.
I believe the comments in reply to this topic are why he should care.
SiubhanDuinne
@Ash Can #124
Yeah, interesting. I’ve been sitting here wondering just when and under what circumstances Makewi had her abortion.
BruceFromOhio
@mr. whipple:
I remember then-Representative Brown showing up in a Lakewood bar on a Sunday night, painfully hoarse from non-stop stumping. Maybe a hundred folks had turned out to hear him rasp through some fine DeWine bashing, and boilerplate Democratic planks. There was no doubt he would be Senator, and so long as he pays attention to his constituents, he’ll be Senator for for a good long time.
Regrettably, Ohio is definitely powered on coal, so he has to make some choices that may not sit well with party, voters, fundraisers or possibly all three at different times.
But you nailed it: the man is blue to the marrow and a junior member. I can’t imagine what would ever push him to trash a fellow Democratic, even one as misguided as Lincoln.
BTW: DeWine is trying to slink back in as SecState – the soulless ratfucking bastards know that 2010, the census and redistricting are in play. If you haven’t checked in on your state-wide office races for this November, please do so – you may be surprised at what is at stake!
Zuzu's Petals
@Makewi:
Well of course the Stupak amendment does more than simply prohibit taxpayer funds from being used to pay for abortions.
It also prohibits the use of taxpayer funds to cover any part of the costs of any plan that includes abortion coverage.
Why didn’t they stop with the first prohibition, do you suppose?
(I’m hoping you’ll apply a little more intellectual rigor than you did in this recent exchange.)
gwangung
@Makewi: Even cuter. She thinks we’re taking her seriously. Silly; we only do that with serious posters. We’re just indulging you.
gwangung
@pattonbt:
It’s bad when that’s all you do, and no gruntwork gets done in moving BOTH the party machinery AND the grassroots to the left.
Both are part and parcel with making better Democrats; primary challenges are necessary, but not sufficient.
El Cid
I just want to be clear that given the horrendous things I’m forced to pay for, I’m more than okay with forcing taxpayers (who, of course, have merely the tiniest indirect say on what they pay for) to pay for abortions.
After all, we pay for torture, we pay for the death penalty, we pay for counter-revolutionary subversion and to bomb the shit out of brown people.
So, screw those who think they get to say whether or not women have the right to terminate a developing fetus. I don’t care what you do or don’t want to pay for.
Anne Laurie
@Chauncey Baker:
As someone who spent 15 years living in the next district over, I would add that for the hardshell Dutch Reformists, Irish Polish and even German Catholics do not qualify as “white”, much less those heathens whose ancestors spoke Romance dialects.
Alan Coren once wrote a column explaining that the modern Netherlands was a wonderful, peaceful, sane place to live because the Dutch had successfully exported the worst of their violent religion-driven crazies to South Africa and Northern Ireland. He didn’t mention central Michigan, but the rule holds.
demimondian
@gwangung: It’s actually pretty pathetic. I keep hoping it’ll grow up and become a menacing troll, but all it ever manages is troll drool.
HRA
@Makewi:
“Please explain to me why abortion needs to be funded by taxpayer dollars? The ones who are “holding up” health care are those who insist that this is a requirement. So congratulations, it is you and your insistence that you get your way that is causing people to die due to lack of health care. It’s not enough for you that abortion is legal, now you want to make sure that those who disagree with the practice get to pay for it as well.
Sorry bob, I know you’re going to die of cancer due to your lack of health care insurance but hold your chin up because Sandy over there insists that we make all those dirty Catholics pay for her abortions.”
I did not read past this reply.
You can also die of a pregnancy. Maybe googling deaths due to pregnancies will enlighten you.
Look if we can fund a bridge to nowhere, we certainly can fund the healthcare needed for pregnancies. That is the heading under which an abortion for the health of the mother would fall under.
I’ve seen where the disagreement has evolved to include miscarriages in some religious fanatics. That’s totally disgusting.
You should realize even Catholic women have abortions and still practice their faith. In fact there is no line drawn religiously when a woman needs an abortion.
IOW your argument is lacking.
Morbo
@qwerty42: Fun fact: only the singular congressional district that represents all of Alaska has more shoreline than Michigan’s 1st district.
Oh, and what Chauncey Baker said. The first is probably still a little redder than the rest of the state, but it has a lot of union and manufacturing roots to it. But I still don’t see a lot of room to compete with Stupak, even symbolically. The real problem is that he’s pretty standard center left with the exception of abortion. So the challenge is going to have to be basically a single issue campaign. And the region is pretty Catholic, so that’s an uphill climb.
Calming Influence
As the one true Calming Influence around here, I’m going to have to formally request that Makewi dial the dogma down a notch. A ball of eight pluripotent cells is not a “baby” any more than a baseball is a baseball game.
If you want to fight for the rights of zygotes over the rights of walking talking human beings, fine – but please use the proper terminology when you do.
brantl
Hey, Makewi. You’re a soulless dick, you know that?
Bubba Dave
@MikeJ:
As a lifelong liberal with deer in the freezer, it was my polite way of saying “Don’t you San Franciscans freak out if/when it turns out she has a Life membership in the NRA, okay?”
Great conversation with my Boston cousin: “Dave, you have a shotgun in your apartment? Doesn’t sound very liberal to me….” “Listen, I’m a liberal in Texas. I’m surrounded and outnumbered; I’d better be armed!”
Bob S
@Calming Influence: Anytime I discuss the issue with zealots like makewi, I’m constantly forced to correct them when they erroneously use ‘baby’ to refer to an ’embryo’ or ‘fetus’, or when they incorrectly refer to the anti-choice movement as being ‘pro-life’, when in fact it’s just a very small percentage of anti-abortion crusaders who are also equally condemnatory of war and the death penalty.
asiangrrlMN
@El Cid: This is why I fake-married you. Great response–right on target.
gwangung
@Bubba Dave: There are an awful lot of liberals and progressives who have no problem with guns. Our idea of gun control is being able to hit the target you aim at.
But we get reallllll pissed if some idjit shoots the crap out of passerbys or if their ammo punches a hole through their target AND the tenant next door…
TooManyJens
@El Cid:
I don’t really understand this line of reasoning. Surely the better approach would be to try to stop the government doing those things you don’t want your money (and I don’t want mine) paying for?
demimondian
@Bob S: First, makewi isn’t a zealot. It’s a spoof troll. I don’t know which of our spoofs writes it, but it’s a spoof. (As a connoisseur of spoof, I’d say that it’s pretty good. Not up to DougJ or any of the true masters, but…adequate.) Second, I’m increasingly liking one of the terms that the FP-ers on Kos have been pushing: “forced pregnancy”. These folks have nothing to do with being pro-life: they’re pro-war, anti-assistance to the poor, and pro-state-sponsored murder. All they can about is mandatory gestation.
Mrs Tilton
I have to say that Makewi is the only intellectually honest person in this thread. Anybody who does not agree to giving Stupak whatever his priests demand obviously values killing babies with taxpayer money more than she values affordable health care for all. Just submit to Stupak and the men who tell him what to think, and you can have your health care!
It’s the same thing with an issue that is dearly important to me. Everybody disses the appendix. “Oh, it’s so vestigial,” they all say; “oh, all it does is occasionally get infected and threaten its owner with agonising death“. Well, it can’t be vestigial, because that would imply that our Creator isn’t very intelligent as a designer.
Now, nothing is more important to my personal religious beliefs than that the Creator not be insulted. It’s unfortunate if you don’t share those beliefs, but your ignorance and vice cannot be permitted to thwart my God’s will. HCR must not be allowed to pass unless there is an amendment that forbids use of taxpayer funds to pay for appendectomies, and also forbids people to use their own money to buy riders to their policies to pay for this wicked and blasphemous “operation”.
Any of you who protest against this pro-appendix amendment don’t really care about health care. You just want butchers in surgical scrubs to rip open bellies and tear out the innocent little appendices, every one of which our Lord treasures and cherishes as He does the sparrows that fall on the ground. And you want the taxpayer to foot the bill for your heathen hecatomb! No doubt you also want the taxpayer to underwrite your gay sex orgies, free medical marijuana and capitulation to Islamic terror. Well, not on my watch. I will pray for you, though.
Andy K
@Chauncey Baker:
The spoken motto being “If you aren’t Dutch, you aren’t much.” And they fucking mean it.
Also: Kent County, not just Grand Rapids, went for Obama. First time the county has voted for the Democrat in a POTUS election since 1964. The congressional district, however, went for McCain. That part of Ionia County that’s in the district is solidly red.
And reading down-thread, i see that Anne is hip to the Dutch thing.
David in NY
My brother in Petoskey (lower Peninsula, just north of Charlevoix), whom I used to think of as sort of conservative, says this: “Thanks for forwarding this–Connie is a good alternative to Stupak and has our full support, but I’m not optimistic about her chances.”
Zuzu's Petals
@HRA:
Well of course she can’t even frame the issue in any sort of honest way. After all, if she simply objected to taxpayer funds being used to pay for abortions, she would acknowledge that the Senate bill does just that. Hence, there is no reason for Stupak not to vote for the Senate bill.
As I pointed out @132, Stupak intends to go much further than that.
El Cid
@TooManyJens:
No, you don’t really understand this line of reasoning; secondly, I don’t oppose the funding of abortion and I don’t care about those who do; and yes, it would be nice to “try and stop” the funding of things I don’t want paid for, and it would also be nice for me to be able to snap my fingers and turn sewage into gold.
Next, I really don’t like people who think that the removal of an undeveloped bit of fetal matter is actually morally comparable to things like war and torture. I know they think that they have convincing moral arguments about it — but then, lots of people think things like that about weak arguments.
So, yes, the “better approach” would be to completely transform government as I saw fit.
In the meantime, I’m not going to let one particular group of people command policy because they think their beliefs of what they “don’t want their money used for” is somehow publicly relevant.
Nor am I going to engage in some game where I pretend to really care about their whining about what they “don’t want their tax dollars used for.”
Just like anyone else, they’re free to access the political system to fight for their ideas and preferred policies, but part of that isn’t getting those of us who don’t agree and don’t care to pretend for one second that we respect those ideas and preferences.
I don’t, and I won’t.
Remember November
Good ol Ronnie Raygun would have been savvy enough to stay the hell away from religious diatribe. Politishuns hav just got stoopider and more selfish…egads it’s a zombie virus…I think I’m infected…
anyone who challenges Stupe-pac should get BJ’s full on choke-slam support.
Shelley
Connie Saltonstall is building her website as we speak:
http://conniesaltonstall.com/
Contributions at ActBlue:
http://www.actblue.com/entity/fundraisers/24052
And on behalf of Michigan’s 1st District which, contrary to Mr. Stupak’s public persona, contains residents who possess critical thinking skills, thank all of you in advance for your support.
tenkindsagrumpy
Bless you John Cole.