As the investigation regarding the sexual assault allegations against Steelers quarterback Ben Roerhlisberger continues, KDKA-TV in Pittsburgh reports that Roethlisberger admitted to having “sexual contact” with the woman who claims sexual assault, but that there was no intercourse.
The admission came during an interview of Roethlisberger conducted at the scene.
Per the report, Roethlisberger claims that the woman fell and injured her head after the incident. She then went to a hospital and alleged that she was sexually assaulted.
So at the very least, Ben spent an entire night with a presumably drinking underage woman, with his crew plying her with alcohol, and then they fooled around. Classy, Ben. Really classy. In the best case scenario, he’s a total asshole when it comes to women.
I’ve heard from some sources in the ‘Burgh that the Rooney family is just absolutely furious with him.
Too bad he can’t be cut and barred from playing ever again.
You don’t need sources, just read what Rooney has said himself. The Steelers don’t ken to this sort of shit, particularly from a guy who has been labeled an asshole since college.
This is exactly the conclusion I came to about Kobe, too. I don’t know what could have been proved in court, but we he admitted to made him an asshole.
And . . . thanks for this, John. You are a good guy.
Well, they’re rich. The people’s family he’s hurt or assaulted have more of a case to be angry, IMO.
That is of course if he’s actually mistreated anyone. Which I don’t know at this point.
What a Dumass.
Coming this fall — Ben Roethlisberger is “The Longest Yard”
@JohnCole Almost makes me nostalgic for Tommy Maddox and Kordell Stewart….
Yesterday was gay day, today is asshole day. What’s the theme for tomorrow?
Let me clarify “asshole” by stating a guy who uses women for sexual gratification by playing them with alcohol and then “having sex” with them.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
I’m sorry but this bullshit won’t fly. I am always hesitant to believe accusations like this about celebrities, at least at face value, until facts come in. But a statement like this sounds like consciousness of guilt to me.
Ha. the Rooney’s are furious, but will they cut loose their golden boy?
Just Some Fuckhead
Ray Lewis woulda just killed the
This reminds me of the Senator Bob Packwood’s sexual assault history
@General Egali Tarian Stuck: They aren’t going to do anything unless he is charged.
And I’ll reserve judgment as to whether he is just an asshole or a sexual predator until I know what is actually going on.
Ben is just an idiot. I’ve actually been in bars here when he was also there and he has always been really great-friendly with fans and happy to buy a drink or sign a shirt or cap. But just because he was celebrating his birthday does not mean he gets to get 20 year olds drunk and grope them. What a dickhead thing to do, especially as he is too old to act so stupidly. I know Pat Rooney pretty well as she used to work with my sister at Robert Morris U. She emailed my sister yesterday and, though she didn’t say Ben’s name, she intimated that her husband, the Ambassador, is extremely upset over not being able to be there to keep an eye on what is happening with the team, both on the field and off. They are such nice, down to earth people and I hate to see them suffering for how this asshole reflects on them and their team.
I still remember the Duke case, so I’m going to wait to see how the facts come together… but, yeah, this sounds like some pretty sleazy behavior at best.
So Ben jacks off on a twenty year and then after wards she falls and he just leaves? At least he hired Garland, who’s used to defending wealthy sports players.
She also didn’t wait to get to the hospital to make her claim of assault, she and a friend flagged down a passing patrol car to report the alleged assault.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@John Cole: That’s fair enough, I was just giving my impression of his statement. We should always wait until there is an investigation, that is proper.
As Woody Allen said, “the heart wants, what the heart wants”
Sorry John, but plying and underage female with alcohol (as a prelude to sexual contact) seems to me to be criminal activity even with the females consent.
Ben sounds like a jerk. But I’ll also wait for all the evidence to come in. Maybe she’s underage and he assaulted her. Maybe she’s 21 and can drink legally and any sexual contact was consensual. Doesn’t look good for him at the moment, but who knows how it will all play out down the road.
Meanwhile… Tim Tebow is going to do a private work out (sounds dirty) with the Buffalo Bills pre-draft.
Jim Kelly is a big Tebow fan and has been trying to sell Timmah as a young him.
Not sure how I feel about any of this.
His whole MO reeks of football player/rapist entitled asshole preying – he deliberately, and weirdly for someone of his age and status, parties with college kids who are more likely to just be awed in that sweet aww shucks way – Big Ben’s here wow cool hey he likes me wow Ben can I see your ring hey he said I’m cute etc. etc. He chose poorly.
@Keith G: What I meant to add, while cooking a yummy dinner, was that it seems to me that *at best* Ben took part in a petty crime *and* is an ass hole….
I grew up very close to Oxford, OH, and am only a bit younger than Ben, so I know a lot of people the same age who hung out/worked in the college hangout spots when he was there, and I’ve heard stories like this about him for years. To be honest, I’ve never heard anyone say anything nice about the guy. He’s apparently a complete and utter dick to absolutely everyone he comes across.
With all due respect John, “Big Ben” never was your buddy sent to help the blessed Rooney family save the world.
He’s a steroided douchebag, the same as the other players in the league.
Oh, fuck it.
Like this even fucking matters.
A bunch of millionaire entertainers behave badly.
Because we just want to be entertained. We really don’t want to know what kind of characters they are because we will have the announcers on the telly tell us that. What storylines are they slinging this week?
Does it matter?
Following pro sports is for the feeble minded.
@DougJ: You can trash Ben all you want, but step back on the Rooney family. I got limits.
Dennis Dixon, fantasy sleeper.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Brien Jackson: I was born in Middletown, through left for kaintuck at around 8 YO. But still have relatives there. Oxford is a cool little college town.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
Oh boy. Front pager flame war? Two overlords go in, only one comes out. [email protected]!
I’m not going to get in the weeds here but the circumstance you describe – IMO, consent does not exist. Which I think you’re saying too.
WTS, I, like others, am waiting for more info.
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Funny you should mention him…
I wonder how Roethlisberger will look in the blue-and-gold of Saint Louis, or the blue-and-silver of Detroit. It would please me to no end to watch Pittsburgh
fleecestack up draft choices from desperate and cluelessly-operated teams like the Rams or Lions in exchange for them taking their headache off of their hands.
Tebow> I don’t think he’s ready to play for a cold-weather team. He’s better off aiming for Jacksonville, as he can continue to surf the wave of adoration he’s rode throughout his life in Florida. Meanwhile, the Jaguars will ride Tebow as their last best hope of keeping a viable NFL presence in northern Florida. If not, get used to the phrase “Los Angeles Jaguars;” it rolls pretty easily off the tongue, eh?
@DougJ: Damn! Somebody put on their crankypants this morning!
Run. Run away. Now.
He will not put butts in the seats in Buffalo, and he will kill your team.
Worst of both worlds for a franchise.
ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED??
– Russell Crowe
As we say down here, “Claro.”
Just Some Fuckhead
@Midnight Marauder: New here, huh?
If they’re coming to my town, I don’t want them with that name.
Rams? Maybe. Lions? Not one chance in hell. The new management is actually competent, and it makes me wonder how much Millen stomped on them during his tenure to get the team as bad as they did.
Regardless, they’re not in the market for a starting FA QB.
I can wait for the particulars of this instance, but, in general, using alcohol to get a woman (or worse, a girl) inebriated (and incapacitated) and then have sex with her is borderline criminal.
@Dan Robinson: elitist.
Just Some Fuckhead
You realize you are describing a prevalent American mating ritual, right?
Hmmm. I don’t know any Ambassadors.
I do know the Mexican Consul stationed in Houston. He and his family aren’t really down to earth people but they are very polite and generous.
@Corner Stone: I tend to agree.
Wonderlick Test Scores (24 average for QB)
Bradford scored a 36 out of 50.
Colt McCoy had a 25
Jimmy Clausen had a 23
Tim Tebow had a 22
However, consider this:
Ryan Fitzpatrick – 48 (current Bills back-up QB)
Alex Smith – 40
Matt Leinart – 35
Dan Marino – 15
Jim Kelly – 15
Donavan McNabb – 14
Vince Young – 6
So, clearly that test is total shit.
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
I grew up about halfway between Oxford and Eaton.
@Keith G: Sí, digo eso también.
@Just Some Fuckhead:
To this thread? Indeed, I am.
As long as we’re talking about sports-related assholes can we bring up sports-related peeing?
What If Everybody in Canada Flushed At Once?
What the fuck do you mean by that?
ETA: Suggesting that (alleged) rape=love, even in a joking way, really, really, really fucking piss me off.
@Max: His mental strength is less important to me than his physical fundamentals.
And I’m not committing multi-millions to these guys so I can be a little blase about their scores.
BTW – Vancouver, WA? You’ll do anything to move further away from me, won’t you?
Good luck up there.
I’ll wait for the evidence, but it is colossally stupid behavior from someone who should know better regardless.
Even if he assumed the woman was 21, you’re a professional athlete in a country that worships professional athletes, I’m sure he didn’t need to booze a woman up to get sex.
If that particular young lady was unwilling, I’m sure there were probably at least two or three others in the bar that would have been willing to say yes without alcohol.
He’s also Al Gore fat.
Dude, you’re on a football team: work out.
@robertdsc: To be fair, this name could also be a revival of an old one–the Los Angeles Rams. STL has a looming lease issue regarding the Edward Jones Dome, which will have to be addressed soon by either the current ownership or the prospective new owner.
(My admittedly whacked-out fantasy world has the Rams moving back to Los Angeles, with the Jaguars moving out of Jacksonville to Saint Louis, where they would become the Stallions. In reality, if the above were to happen, Saint Louis would not be lucky enough to get a third crack at the NFL; the Jaguars would more than likely move to San Antonio.)
@Max: I have to say, people like Marino and Kelly, players guaranteed to be drafted high, probably didn’t take the test seriously. For example, if I was guaranteed to get into a top university based on my high school record alone, I probably wouldn’t have taken the SATs seriously.
Millen should be hounded from polite discourse for his actions in Detroit.
He’s actually a middling entertainer as an announcer but good God he should never live down his awful GM-ness.
I’d be amused if the Steelers just cut the fucker outright; yeah, one gives up the picks, but they’ve raised the trophy twice in recent years. Time to step up and do what is right.
Look, if he sexually assaulted her he’s a criminal that should be locked away, no question. And if I had to bet on his guilt/innocence, I’d guess he did it.
A 20 year old, however, is not “underage”. The way that keeps getting thrown around, it gives the impression that she’s 12 or something. If they were in a bar, couldn’t he assume she was 21 anyway? Checking ID is not his responsibility in that situation. Let’s not infantilize the victim just to make the alleged crime seem worse.
That’s the whole point of it, at least to me.
Hey, I thought it was the Vikings that were supposed to move to LA. At least that’s the message-o-fear up here in their push for a new stadium.
They can all move out to LA for all I care.
@Betsy: I’m comparing woody allen’s perverse entitled indulgence that he would so abrasionly say his affair with his adopted daughter was okay (the heart wants…), with Ben’s perverse entitled indulgence to think it’s okay to ply underage women with booze and then take them into a bathroom to take advantage of them.
So, I am curious, I understand there is a point where consent is impossible, but where exactly is that line?
If someone is out having fun in a bar and meets someone and they’re both drinking and they opt to leave, how exactly is someone legally to know if they’re partner has passed that line, other than the obvious signs of unconsciousness?
If the Rooney family is truly furious with him, they should cut him. And they should also file suit to void anything in the contract requiring them to continue paying him, because Ben is clearly undeserving of ANYTHING from the owners at this point.
Aren’t there any clauses in his contract regarding off-field conduct that can be deemed ‘detrimental’ to the discipline needed on-field? This would surely count.
The ‘bad boys’ of sport keep behaving the way they do because they never get held accountable for what they do. It’s time they were held accountable. Then maybe our sports news sections won’t read like police blotters every day.
This is one of the most common and insidious fallacies about sexual assault/rape. Rape is not about “needing” to coerce sex.* Rape is committed by ugly and handsome people, rich and poor people, those for whom it is easy to find a sex partner and those for whom it is not.
*Besides the obvious point that no one on earth “needs” to rape someone.
I have no idea whether this dude did what he’s accused of. I agree with Cole that at the very least he’s a raging asshole. At worst…well, we’ll see.
We don’t want them; we always get the good TV games as no local team can screw it up for us. Besides, the Coliseum is a POS, the Rose Bowl wants nothing to do with the Pros, and a new stadium is a crack pipe dream.
After the Rams and Raiders left, it was the biggest case of “yeah, fuck, whatever, let’s go to the Beach” I’ve ever seen.
Ah, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying for me.
meh. When’s opening day?
Take the wonderlic yourself …
Just Some Fuckhead
I believe the correct answer is Who Fucking Cares? That’s why yer getting drunk, so you don’t care. Me and Mrs. Fuckhead conceived the boy, Slow Tony, this way and our hastily arranged marriage is stronger because of it.
@Betsy: yeah, it’s been 18 years now, but Woody’s affair with the daughter he and Mia Farrow raised was sick. But the depth of his depraved indifference was displayed when he went on 60 minutes and said he couldn’t help himself, saying “the heart wants, what the heart wants”.
Not one of you schtups knows what the hell happened between this young man and woman. Why is it so necessary for you to decide ahead of police and court procedures, and without anything to go on other than hearsay and rumors, that an accused person did this or that or nothing at all?
I’m thinking because it makes you losers feel superior and righteous in your premature judgments. Cause, god forbid, you know, you would just wait to seehow the legal aspects play out.
If this guy did something illegal and bogus, then I hope he gets slammed for it. If not, then I hope he gets off scott free. What is so difficult for you about assuming a similar, non hysterical attitude in regard to these types of news stories?
I honestly wish I could agree with this sentiment but once again the Astros have a starting pitching roster that sounds like a TX-MEX bordertown flea market lineup.
Just brutal. A couple young hard throwers who are going to get SHELLED in our small park.
@Mike Kay: Yes, that was shocking, and he also kept choosing more and more subordinate women, with age and abilities and confidence lacking from their situation.
Then to abuse a trust on several levels that way.
One of the participants throwing up is usually a pretty good sign that they should call it a night. Especially if it happens in the other person’s car.
Stay Classy Ben.
Yes, I’m pretty sure Mrs. Dread and I conceived our second child the same way after an office Xmas party where we both imbibed heavily.
Though we did not write that in his baby book.
@tim: Get a grip clownshoe.
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
You are an agitator.
He may be a total dick towards women. He sounds like somebody I wouldn’t want my sister to be around. And the Steelers can always release him from his contract. You know there’s a moral turpitude clause. If they don’t excercise it, then either they don’t disapprove of his behavior (and the resulting bad press) enough to get rid of him, or his behavior hasn’t reached the level covered by such inevitable clause.
I’ll also note that the only reason he hasn’t been arrested is because he’s rich and famous. He’d be in jail (or MAYBE bailed-out after putting up his home equity) right now if he was anybody else.
“Meanwhile… Tim Tebow is going to do a private work out (sounds dirty) with the Buffalo Bills pre-draft.
Jim Kelly is a big Tebow fan and has been trying to sell Timmah as a young him.
Not sure how I feel about any of this.”
I do know how I feel and I have to keep repeating “I am a lady” (my parents’ teachings on how to be one are with me forever)
Let me simply say I see the resemblance if Kelly thinks it’s a young him.
For those who talk about millionaire a-holes, I offer Field of Schemes, an excellent blog that tracks the owners and their stadium bullsh*t. While players can be jackasses, there are many in the boardrooms of pro franchises who are even worse from a financial perspective. The Rooneys seem to be slightly less.
God I hate this attitude so much. It seems to come from women (who are way too quick to accuse guys of being sexually suspect) more than men, but it’s becoming more and more pervasive in our society. It’s ageism, pure and simple. For one thing, the 21 drinking age is a joke and everyone knows it. In most of western Europe it’s 16, Making it over 18 is beyond absurd. Far more importantly, it has nothing to do with the accusations against Rothlisburger. Absolutely nothing.
I party with college kids and date girls who are college age and I’m about the same age as Rothlisburger. I’m single, have no kids and don’t see why in the world anyone would expect me to date divorced moms. I am not attracted to 30 year old women (I went out with one once, and while she was smart, attractive and successful… it just didn’t take) so why on earth would I date them? I certainly won’t do it just to appease your hangups.
However… I do NOT get girls hammered and then go money shot on them. Nor do I leave concussed girls lying around unattended. That is the issue here. Finally…
It can’t be said enough when all the man haters come out of the wood work claiming that everyone from Kobe to Bill Clinton is a sexual predator and that rapists never get convicted because of the patriarchy or whatever. Innocent until proven guilty. If he did it he’s a creep and should be punished. Rant concludes.
Corner Stone @45: Well, I can attest that Dan and Pat Rooney are the least entitled rich people I have ever known, despite being probably the richest people I’ve ever spent time with. They remind me of my parents in how they carry themselves in life. And my parents were children of steel workers, my dad was a steel worker with a side job digging graves, and my mom didn’t go to college until she had 6 kids and was over 40. But they were smart, had wide interests, and worshipped education and having respect for others. The Rooneys, at least the Ambassador and his wife, remind me of those people. So at least this ambassador is down to earth.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
I don’t live anywhere near Pittsburgh and I’m still aware of several off-the-field incidents for Roethlisberger, so this doesn’t come as a big surprise, does it? And frankly, he’s not that great of a quarterback is he? Seems to do well when the Steelers go into that attacking defense/conservative offense mode which made even the likes of Kordell Stewart and Tommy Maddox look good. So is he worth the headache?
Who said anything about 30 year old moms? Ben’s exactly my daughter’s age, and a high school friend of hers went to college with Ben – I know what I’m talking about. He’s an immature loser who apparently can’t interact emotionally with someone his own age. Sounds like projection, buddy.
Talk of cutting him tends to end when you think about who that makes the starting QB for PIT. He’d have to you-know-what to Kittens before they’d actually dump him, no matter how much the owners may dislike him. Unless he’s behind bars or get injured, he’s the starter.
This. It’s the mindset, not the birthday.
@Cat Lady: Sounds like projection, buddy.
Uh… QED, I think.
Man, buncha self righteous folks working these parts tonight. Can you all tell me honestly that you haven’t regularly slept with a woman for the first time after having drinks?
Look. Consent matters. But bars and booze is what we do, all of us. People in the program do the same thing in coffee shops, but you know what I mean
Just Some Fuckhead
@Ranger 3: You better just keep yer lady-rapin parts in yer pants, manwhore!!!!!
LOL!!!! Listen, dude, don’t do us any favors. If there’s anything we *don’t* do, it’s sit around hoping that some 28 year old who prefers dating college sophomores will rescue us from our lonely, spinsterish ways.
@Betsy: Frankly, I’m fucking baffled at his statement. She was awesome…but not 22.
WTF mi hijo?
“I dated one once” ?
Jeez, dude, chacun a son gout and all, but here’s one woman who hopes you stay single and childless at least until you grow up a bit.
As a women if someone took me or followed me to the bathroom I would be screaming my head off. what was she thinking? I realize we get to say no at anytime today, but in my day I didnt put myself in those situations. I think He suffers from very poor judgement as did she.
Word. That’s the attitude that explains why Ben hangs out with 20 year old college girls instead of women his own age- he can still be the football hero BMOC. Pathetic. He’s good at football, but real life is another thing entirely, and he appears to suck at that. Lots of pro athletes have that problem and he’s just another one of them. Too bad there’s always collateral damage.
I worked in L.A. for many years with both actors and musicians and, believe me, the combination of being young, very successful, and rich beyond your wildest dreams is something very few people handle well. The ones who don’t OD on drugs or alcohol sometimes become OK people when they finally grow up. Sometimes. Usually not.
‘Furious with him’? Are they gonna send him a sternly worded letter cutting his salary to $96,000 PER WEEK from the $125,000 or so it probably is now?
Do you know how sad and lost you are, or is the realization only now starting to creep up on you?
Thanks for the heads-up, though; I had no idea women were automatically assigned children once they hit 30. I wonder where they hide the kids when I’m around…
EDIT: So that’s why her dog “thinks he’s people!” Chinese Crested my ass.
Although I agree with you that the drinking age is really quite ridiculous, I would say the fact that he chose to hang with a younger crowd does have a lot to do with the accusations, if he is guilty of rape or some other sexual assault. His age and (more importantly, for sure) his position make it more likely that someone younger will look up to him and be easily influenced by his attention/status/etc.
When did we women all get our ages imprinted on our foreheads? I hope by attraction you mean the area of their life they’re in, because I’m sure there’s women out there that don’t look 30.
Huh? Where the hell did you get the part about dating divorced moms? Is someone pressuring you? Tell them you’re not ready for that kind of committment.
You want to party with a younger crowd. You’re more comfortable around that age group, more into the fun times they’re enjoying. Have at it. Just be careful you don’t become “that guy” at the party. Kind of like Eric Stolz in Say Anything, but not as cool and older. I’ve met “that guy” a few too many times when I was in college. Unless you’re enrolled in the university and asked to the party because you’re a classmate, it’s weird. Okay, even then, it can be awkward and weird. Unless you’re really fun to be around, like Eric Stolz in Say Anything
, only cooler.
Nope, it’s still weird.
Oh, and for anyone who is saying people are pearl-clutching over the whole woman being under the influence thing, the point is that she was (allegedly) assaulted by someone who wasn’t in it for consensual sex. It’s a grey area, I know, but her physical and mental state being affected by the alcohol made the assualt that much more sinister. And if he was supplying her with the alcohol and she was anythning under 21, he’s going to get it for that, too. No matter how silly the law is, that’s the law. Even if it’s consensual sex acts, he still may have supplied a minor with alcohol, unless she concealed her true age from him. Call your elected officials or do whatever to get it changed.
Well, I do think Ranger 3 is right in the sense that it’s not really fair to condemn a 28 year old for being in a bar that could possibly contain a college sophomore who is in there drinking illegally. That would be pretty much every bar in Boston.
I mean, that’s why they call it “twenty something”, no?
At the same time, I couldn’t imagine dating somebody in college or just out in my late twenties… but hey, whatever, as long as they’re consenting adults.
Having a reputation as a drinker or drugger is bad, but usually redeemable. Serial sexual assault charges is of another magnitude, and puts Ben in a different category now. I don’t think he realizes yet how deep the shit is he’s in – even with his big shot attorney. He’s about to find out, fame and fortune notwithstanding.
@Max: Good god, no. The Bills don’t have a competent, QB this won’t help.
The reason this rings serious “oh shit, he did it” alarm bells for me* is that “sexual assault” isn’t limited to intercourse. His “but we didn’t have coitus!” addendum feels like a misdirection to me. We’ll see, of course.
*Innocent until proven guilty, naturally, but it’s not a good sign. Like I said, we’ll see.
“Per the report, Roethlisberger claims that the woman fell and injured her head after the incident. She then went to a hospital and alleged that she was sexually assaulted.”
-She hit her head after she hit his head.
A shaky civil suit and a case under investigation is not the same thing as “serial sexual assault charges.”
Unless charges are actually filed, and they haven’t been yet, Ben is not yet deep in doo doo. I realize that it would be irresponsible not to speculate, but still, a little perspective is in order.
By the way, I am not in any way trying to minimize the seriousness of the charges that Roethlisberger might be facing.
J. Michael Neal
Uhm, I can. Neither woman I’ve had sex with in my life had had anything to drink the first night we slept together. Now, granted, I had to fend the second one off after the first time we had dinner; she was engaged to someone else at the time, and I didn’t want to be in the middle of that. In retrospect, it should have been my first clue that things weren’t going to work out well, but the intervening 15 years before she walked out on our marriage were a lot of fun.
It was obvious Ben is a self-destructive idiot after his motorcycle accident. He was moving at multiples of the speed limit, on a tiny street that exits into a busy 5-way intersection. Oh, and without a helmet. Or a permit. If you saw the accident site you’d swear he was trying to commit suicide.
He’s the definition of a loose cannon.
@mikey: I can tell you that. I haven’t slept with anyone for the first time after a few drinks. Why? Because, oh, I don’t know it impairs judgment.
@Darkmoth: Ditto this. I am not commenting on this case until more is know about it, but he’s not the brightest bulb in the socket, that’s for sure.
Well, that sort of behavior is something that Steely McBeam would never do.
(NOTE: I may be bouncing off keywords in the above discussion, but some of it has gotten this close to true that I want to stomp on it now.)
Oh, man, these discussions always end up like this. Meta-arguments over whether you get to claim it was without consent because you did X before Y came up. Guess what, assholes, by which I mean Roethlisberger and anyone even attempting to claim it’s OK to take advantage of a drunk person for sexual purposes? You don’t get to set the victim’s boundaries. S/he does. And yes, people can and do cry foul after the act instead of stopping it before for valid cause. Like being scared. Or drunk.
Was it less a rape that Mackenzie Philips was hopped up on drugs the first time her father raped her? By your words, yes, but you don’t get to tell Mackenzie what she would have wanted in that situation. She gets to say. It’s a little thing called personal autonomy, something women continue to be denied every time someone argues “she opened herself up to it, she should suck it up and shut up.” Any bad judgment that may have been exhibited by the woman Roethlisberger admits to feeling up while she was drunk does not negate the crime of sexual assault should it be proven. If she didn’t want him to try for her, she’s within her rights to cry foul after the fact.
And as someone who was too scared to stop her rapist during a date, trust me, it DOES work that way and you are NOT entitled to tell me I wasn’t raped because I didn’t fight back. Go fuck yourselves if you do anyway. You’re not worthy of the comfort of a RealDoll.
Phone number or it didn’t happen.
(Hey, it might work better than bars.)
It’s too bad, because despite the people who insist otherwise, Big Ben is a hell of a QB. But this stuff makes me wonder more about the case last year which I had dismissed as most likely BS. If you couple this with his motorcycle adventure, it seems to show that he has some serious lack of maturity and judgment. I would hate to lose his talent at QB, but I wonder what else will happen with him.
May I just say I’m just overjoyed to see this type of post here at all. For a very very very long time, sports fans and the sports world as a general has taken the various strings of “at best, a total asshole to women” behavior among sports stars as the price one pays for sports and sports fandom to be regarded as a proper masculinity increasing pursuit.
One turns a blind eye to the suffering of women on the margins and the lack of regards to respecting full informed consent floating around the edges of the toxic masculinity often endemic to the “jock culture”. One does this because the deal is such behavior is still unfortunately considered “manly” and some of that manliness will leak down to non-women hating fans or at worst women-disregarding non-rapist fans.
And that cowardice on top of the general dislike we have of thinking poorly of people we admire for unrelated talents often leads to unfortunate consequences for women on the sidelines of sports culture. And this isn’t endemic just to American sports culture. European football (soccer for Americans) has the same problems. My favorite team FC Midtjylland who plays in ultra-commie Denmark took on a goalie for a couple of months who had been thrown off his last team for beating his wife. Not only was he not in jail for this crime, he was given an immediate contract with another team that only got terminated because he called for the deaths of the LGBT segment of his fan-base.
It’s a hard nut to crack and a problem wherever a particularly toxic idea of masculinity has become enmeshed in an unrelated culture like sports. It leads often to these sorts of stories being hastily jumped on as “women suck” and “rape isn’t real” before anything else.
It is such an amazing step that this thread where a proud fan of the team and a big time sports fan can recognize not only the problematic nature of the accusations if true, but also that they at best show an assholic disregard for full informed consent and instead an enjoyment of dancing around the gray lines where one is far more likely to violate consent even accidentally.
This is a major thing and it’s even more awesome that the comments for the most part have echoed this sentiment.
I can’t overstate how much of a big deal that is. This is a proud moment of male evolution in regards to issues of consent and women’s rights and a massive shift from the types of “rape is never real” sort of debates most feminists are used to hearing from fans of famous people.
In general, thank you John for making this feminist’s day. This is really an auspicious occasion.
Sorry about what happened to you, but do you honestly want to claim that something can retroactively become a crime?
Please explain to us how your inaction at the time can make something a crime later absent evidence of intent on the other’s part?
As for Ms. Phillips, I don’t think anyone questions whether or not she was able to give consent. Unless it’s known and provable that her father knew that she was too stoned to consent, it’s not rape.
Do we know that Rothlisberger knew anything about this accuser’s mental state at the time? No, WE don’t. The police may or may not. They aren’t saying.
The way our system is supposed to work is that the prosecution has to prove intent as an element of the crime. That’s that whole point of trials and guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and replacing the accuser with the state. The fact that in many jurisdictions the prosecution doesn’t have to prove that anything happened and the only requirement for conviction and incarceration is that the unsubstantiated claim of an accuser is morally grotesque. I guess you don’t need to explain anything about retroactive criminality. I just explained it myself.
She said she was too scared to fight back. She didn’t say that she didn’t say no. If she said no, or indicated a lack of consent, it is rape. The fact that she said she was “too scared to fight back” indicated the presence or real threat of violence.
She also didn’t say whether or not she said “stop.”
“I still remember the Duke case, so I’m going to wait to see how the facts come together…”
You mean the case where a bunch of privileged white boys, some of them underage, bought a lot of beer and hired black strippers for a big party in the middle of their lacrosse season but were turned into choirboy victims of reverse racism because the prosecutor was corrupt and incompetent and the crack-addicted exotic dancer wasn’t a great witness?
I guess I don’t understand why you’re assuming she didn’t indicate lack of consent (whether by “no,” “stop,” or something else). It seems weird not to give someone the benefit of the doubt about that, when she gave no reason for us to think that might be the case. Maybe not in a court of law, but this is the fucking internet for god’s sake, it’s someone commenting under a handle, not accusing anyone specific, with no material reason to lie. Why the suspicion?
@Betsy: because that court of law thing is the only standard to which we should be holding this.
At what point do we decide that since we’re not in a court it’s OK to assume? You either have cultural standards or you don’t. Words mean what they mean or they don’t.
Do we assume that because this is the internet and that we’re posting under a handle that I’m a child molester and you’re an arsonist? After all, it’s never going to be in court, so why discuss it?
Does the term rape mean something different on the internet than it does in a court of law now? What about using the word on Newsweek.com vs. Balloon-Juice? Is it the same thing then?
We either decide what it means so that we can have a meaningful discussion or we keep talking past each other for one thing and for the another thing, the word itself loses meaning and value.
Yes, as regards the football player. But when someone comes in and says “I was a rape victim, and here’s my perspective,” that is not an invitation to cross-examine her. If you were having a conversation with a group and someone said that, you wouldn’t start grilling her on how exactly she knows she was raped, would you?
Edit: I agree that we’re talking past each other, and I can’t figure out why. I thought you were asking Blue Raven to describe the circumstances of her rape to “prove” that she’d been raped, which A) seems wildly inappropriate and cruel and B) is impossible on the internet anyway. If we’re talking about Big Ben, then of course, I agree, as I said above, that I have no idea whether he’s guilty of sexual assault or not.
No, I wouldn’t start grilling this person, but I also wouldn’t accept at face value that accusation. I have my reasons.
Having said that, either rape is rape or it isn’t.
If there was no intent to force another person to engage in sexual intercourse against that person’s will, then it’s not rape, and we shouldn’t be calling it that.
The moment we start saying that it doesn’t really matter because it’s not court, we start letting ourselves in for all sorts of unpleasantness.
That’s one way to look at it. The other way to look at it is that some of them were probably drinking under age, which has its own appropriate charges and punishment while engaged in an otherwise legal activity during which no rape ever took place. One crime generally results in a fine and community service, and the other one generally results in long-term incarceration and permanent loss of rights as a felon. Oh, and the main reason the accuser was a poor witness was because nobody was raped and she couldn’t keep her story straight as to what happened. She hadn’t actually, you know, witnessed anything. If you’re going to say things that are easily contravened by physical evidence and other witnessess, you need to at least be consistent with your own stories, and the accuser couldn’t even manage that. The only person she ever identified with consistency wasn’t even there the night the event took place.
Actually, no, intent isn’t what matters. What matters is whether one person had sex with another person without legal consent.
Anyway, I guess we’re just going to have to disagree. Certainly, I agree with you that when we use the words “rape” or “sexual assault” that we should be referring to the legal definition. But I do NOT agree with you that we should treat every person we encounter in life who says that they have been raped as if they’re probably A) lying or B) too dumb to understand what rape means.
Edit: If only because statistically, there are vastly more rapes than there are false accusations of rape. So if someone tells you she was raped, the odds are very, very good that she was raped.
Things get much harder when someone accuses a specific person of rape, since we presume innocence until guilt is proven. And as you probably realize, guilt is extremely difficult to prove in most rape cases. But that wasn’t what happened here. Someone explained that she was a victim of rape, and you immediately reacted with suspicion and cross-examination. I find that unsettling.
And when did we start doing that?
I am probably the last person to bring this bullshit to.
First, Sooner, having read your posts for a while, I understand the reasons for your sensitivity to this.
My point about those Dookies is that yes, they were probably falsely accused of rape, but they sure weren’t at a prayer meeting either. In fact, they were doing things that would get them disciplined by their coaches and the University regardless of their legality, and that don’t justify the halos that were put on these guys afterward. (for instance, one of the players was offered a lucrative internship with a Wall Street brokerage as sort of a reward after the charges were dropped. I don’t see that happening if the races of the accused and the accuser were reversed)
So if it turns out that Big Ben didn’t rape the girl, and she turns out to be a cheap drunken skank, I’m still not finding him a victim or his behavior particularly admirable.
Hey, if they’re not actually in Los Angeles I don’t want them called the “Los Angeles” anything. Call them the “City of Industry Idiots” or whatever, but don’t call them “L.A.”.
Not that anyone involved in the NFL discussion gives a shit what I want or think.
It IS?…oh, oh…
Yeah, I agree, it’s pretty sleazy.
Yeah, I agree. Me no wantee NFL team out here again. The latest efforts run the gamut from the usual NFL-city extortion racket to con-men developers plying near-by smaller localities with mostly illusiory fantasies about adding large chunks of revenue to the city’s coffers.
The City of Industry MIGHT rake a few bucks after having to pay increased police and other municipal expenses attendant to having a large influx of people there all at once, but the other near-by localities will mostly suffer. Fans attending the game are mostly going to be driving straight to the game and then heading straight home afterwards. There aren’t going to be a whole lot of them stopping off in Maywood for a “dining experience” or whatever.
Well, they were certainly falsely accused of rape. Whether their accuser did so out of malice or stupidity or just being nuts is an interesting side argument, but since there’s absolutely no evidence that any of them had sex with her at all and that’s what she accused them of doing, then yeah, they were falsely accused of rape.
As for the other part, no they weren’t at a prayer meeting, but why the hell does that matter? They were engaged (with the exception of the underage drinking) in activities that were otherwise legal. Their races have nothing to do with it. If today’s version of racial equality is that now white boys can have their lives ruined and threatened and be incarcerated for crimes they didn’t commit just like black boys, I would hope that you would agree with me that we are moving in the wrong direction.
I’m honestly surprised because my own experience, and the narratives that I know of tend to support the opposite. False Accusation victims are frequently passed over for jobs the moment the background check comes in, if not fired from the jobs they have. Many have had to change their names and relocate at considerable personal expense because just the accusation is enough.
At least you have a realistic chance of getting an NFL franchise. We’ll never see one here in Oklahoma. In any event, your subsequent post is more correct in my view. The amount of money these people put up in the form of a sales tax increase to support the billionaire owner of the NBA team by rennovating an arena that was only 10 years old (and built with a tax levy aimed at bringing an NBA team in the first place) was just plain bullshit.
And when I note that, I note that these are the ones who can afford such. Justice, like many things unfortunately, is dependent upon the size of one’s wallet.
“And when I note that, I note that these are the ones who can afford such. Justice, like many things unfortunately, is dependent upon the size of one’s wallet.”
Absolutely, Sooner. And I do agree that “If today’s version of racial equality is that now white boys can have their lives ruined and threatened and be incarcerated for crimes they didn’t commit just like black boys” we would be moving backwards, but that didn’t happen to the Duke boys. As I noted, at least one got offered a big job on Wall Street. The NCAA gave the all of them an extra year of eligibility, even though it was the school that fired the coach and canceled the season, and not the NCAA.
Then there was the McFayden e-mail:
“A couple of hours after the party ended, Ryan McFadyen, a member of the lacrosse team, sent an email to other players saying that he planned to have some strippers over and made references to killing them and then cutting off their skin while wearing his Duke-issue spandex and ejaculating.”
Once again, no real price was paid:
“McFadyen was not charged with any crime, but he was suspended from Duke, due to what the university described as safety concerns. However, on June 29, 2006, the university reinstated him citing the fact he had broken no University policy through his actions.”
Somehow I just can’t feel too bad for these guys.
@Honus: McFayden, no. The guy is (or was) clearly an asshole, and he should’ve been dealt with by whatever mechanisms existed for that purpose. Don’t feel a lot of pain for him.
But for a few of those guys, I do. And again, they are the minority of cases here. If their case didn’t have national attention, it is highly unlikely it would’ve turned out like it did. Many of them weren’t even present for any of that night, and while there was apparently a culture within the lacrosse program of excessive drinking, there was also a cumulative GPA higher than any of the other sports programs and the student body as a whole and yet every single one of them was put on “wanted” posters up around town.
All of that, however is a distraction. Back to the central point, which is that Rothlisberger hasn’t even been formally charged with so much as jay walking. He may be another entitled asshole jock. I used to live in Norman, OK. I knew a few of those guys with their special dorm and their five-year full ride scholarships, so yeah. There’s guys and gals like that at every major university in the country and it’s a sad joke when you think about what a university is supposed to be about and how much money gets wasted on these self-important jackasses.
But for every Duke Lacrosse and Ben Rothlisberger, there’s the Hofstra incident last year, and the Scottsboro boys in 1931 and hundreds if not thousands of other incidents like the lynchings in the south and other cases of men and boys, many of them minorities, who lost their freedom or their lives because of false accusations. And the attitude of many of the commenters on here, which is the same attitude we see over and over and over again the moment an accusation is made, the attitude that ‘the guy is probably guilty’, which usually morphs into ‘the guy is probably guilty of something‘ when it’s shown he didn’t do it is no less morally grotesque because it happens on the internet than it is when it’s your life being threatened and your car getting vandalized, and your co-workers refusing to work with you in person.