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You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Something For Nothing

Something For Nothing

by John Cole|  March 15, 20108:46 am| 87 Comments

This post is in: Domestic Politics

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This story pretty much sums up the state of affairs regarding everything in this country:

Mr. Hawkins’s answer to such problems will not please a lot of citizens. Like many of his counterparts in cities like Detroit, Cincinnati, Atlanta and elsewhere, his job is partly to persuade the public to accept higher water rates, so that the utility can replace more antiquated pipes.

“People pay more for their cellphones and cable television than for water,” said Mr. Hawkins, who before taking over Washington’s water system ran environmental groups and attended Princeton and Harvard, where he never thought he would end up running a sewer system.

“You can go a day without a phone or TV,” he added. “You can’t go a day without water.”

But in many cities, residents have protested loudly when asked to pay more for water and sewer services. In Los Angeles, Indianapolis, Sacramento — and before Mr. Hawkins arrived, Washington — proposed rate increases have been scaled back or canceled after virulent ratepayer dissent.

So when Mr. Hawkins confronted the upset crowd near Dupont Circle, he sensed an opportunity to explain why things needed to change. It was a snowy day, and while water from the broken pipe mixed with slush, he began cheerily explaining that the rupture was a symptom of a nationwide disease, according to people present.

Mr. Hawkins — who at 49 has the bubbling energy of a toddler and the physique of an aging professor — told the crowd that the average age of the city’s water pipes was 76, nearly four times that of the oldest city bus. With a smile, he described how old pipes have spilled untreated sewage into rivers near homes.

“I don’t care why these pipes aren’t working!” one of the residents yelled. “I pay $60 a month for water! I just want my toilet to flush! Why do I need to know how it works?”

I guess Norquist was wrong about one detail. The great conservative plan of the last four decades wasn’t to drown government in a bathtub, it was to drown all of us in feces and storm runoff.

That half trillion dollars plus we are spending on the military could probably come in handy. As could those tax cuts that fueled the awesome “growth” of the Bush era.

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Reader Interactions

87Comments

  1. 1.

    Michael D.

    March 15, 2010 at 8:49 am

    We really do have a sense of entitlement in the West, don’t we? I know you think it’s an American disease. It’s not. It’s everywhere.

  2. 2.

    Michael D.

    March 15, 2010 at 8:50 am

    or, perhaps, it’s been exported everywhere.

  3. 3.

    arguingwithsignposts

    March 15, 2010 at 8:51 am

    I don’t understand why they don’t use “D.C.” instead of Washington. I had to check to make sure he wasn’t in Washington state.

  4. 4.

    cleek

    March 15, 2010 at 8:51 am

    “I pay $60 a month for water! I just want my toilet to flush! Why do I need to know how it works?”

    resentful ignorance is bliss !

  5. 5.

    Punchy

    March 15, 2010 at 8:51 am

    Somewhat related….you should see the fucking dustup in KC about the decision to pink-slip HALF of all their public schools next year. Parents, politicos, dumbasses all screaming bloody murder. But raise taxes to support the schools? HELL NO! The cognitive dissonance is palatable.

    In fact, there’s a serious effort underway to eliminate a surcharge/tax that brings a gazillion dollars to both STL and KC. If that passes, KC is so fucked they might as well have the whole city move to Galt’s Gulch.

  6. 6.

    rob!

    March 15, 2010 at 9:00 am

    “I pay $60 a month for water! I just want my toilet to flush! Why do I need to know how it works?”

    All you need is a little “Palin 2012” below it and you’ve got a bumper sticker. Although that is a lot to read for the average tea-bagger.

  7. 7.

    MattF

    March 15, 2010 at 9:00 am

    But… if you get enough people together to protest high taxes, and buy gold, and buy ‘survival seeds’, then… it will all be OK, right? Teleprompter! Dijon mustard! Kenya!

  8. 8.

    HL_guy

    March 15, 2010 at 9:01 am

    In grad school, I went on a ‘field trip’ to a water pumping plant on the Sacramento Delta that controls a section of the California Aqueduct. The manager, in grave tones, said something like, “This system was designed to supply water to X-million people, but the California population will soon reach 2X-million.”

    I said, “Since this water costs almost nothing to use, why don’t we just raise the price so individuals and businesses use less water per person, or in more profitable ways?”

    He replied, “That won’t work, because this system was designed to supply water to X-million people, but the California population will soon reach 2X-million.”

    Not a satisfying answer, but maybe instructive.

  9. 9.

    The Moar You Know

    March 15, 2010 at 9:02 am

    “I don’t care why these pipes aren’t working!” one of the residents yelled. “I pay $60 a month for water! I just want my toilet to flush! Why do I need to know how it works?”

    For the first time in my life, I can understand how God’s sense of humor manifests itself in typhoid and cholera.

  10. 10.

    BR

    March 15, 2010 at 9:02 am

    If you haven’t seen it yet, the best analysis of the something for nothing mentality that has brought us to where we are today is the new Chris Smith documentary, Collapse:

    http://www.collapsemovie.com/

    He’s the guy who directed The Yes Men and some other cool documentaries.

    If you search on YouTube, you’ll find that folks have posted the movie so you can watch it there, since it’s in limited release. (I think it’s also on the file sharing networks, speaking of something for nothing.)

    It’s a pretty chilling take on how our energy and monetary problems and our something for nothing attitude has gotten us to a precarious place as a country.

  11. 11.

    Zifnab

    March 15, 2010 at 9:03 am

    @Michael D.:

    We really do have a sense of entitlement in the West, don’t we?

    Hardly. The lower classes are bleed to death with taxes and fees, public and private. I spend $30 / month for cable internet. $60 / month for water seems a little on the high side. And when I shovel out another couple grand in property taxes, it gets a little annoying being told “Oh, we just don’t have the money to fix that.”

    Everyone knows money is being collected – lots of money. But no one knows how that money is being spent, and no one knows how much a functional infrastructure actually costs. So when you tell a guy making $15 / hour that he’s being greedy for demanding a water bill on par with his cell phone bill, you’re not going to make a lot of friends.

    We’ve just seen a massive disconnect between taxes and product. When people see successful and valuable public works completed, they’ve got less of a problem ponying up the extra scratch. But when the pipes under the city haven’t been updated in 76 years – where the fuck have my taxes and fees been going the last 76 years? Why do I think this year is going to be different?

  12. 12.

    TJ

    March 15, 2010 at 9:03 am

    It’s not entitlement, it’s just corporate management stupidity and short-sightedness imported into government. You can always defer maintenance and upgrades for a couple years and get away with it, right up until the whole thing collapses. Just plan on being elsewhere when that happens.

  13. 13.

    RedKitten

    March 15, 2010 at 9:03 am

    That’s pretty typical — people want everything, but the concept of having to give something up for it? No way.

    A small town near me was looking at building a large interpretive centre based on some important local history. I lost count of the number of people who bitched, moaned and complained about the idea of all of these tourists coming in to their peaceful town, creating all of this traffic and noise. And yet, these are the exact same people who bitch and moan because local businesses are closing due to lack of customers.

    Most people just don’t seem to want to accept the fact that if you want something, there is usually a trade-off.

  14. 14.

    Robin G

    March 15, 2010 at 9:04 am

    In the smallest defense of the ignorant DC resident — no one’s all that happy to see their bills go up right now. Also, since BGE (the main energy company in Maryland, I don’t know if they also handle DC) went unregulated, their energy prices skyrocketed out of nothing more than pure “free-market” greed; by the time I moved, I was paying almost $300 a month for gas and electric in my one bedroom apartment. So some people, when they see their utilities hike suddenly, in addition to wondering where they’re going to find that additional money, may be wondering if they’re just getting fleeced.

    Granted, the moron yelled something moronic when the guy in charge was actually trying to explain to him how it all worked. So my sympathy is minimal.

  15. 15.

    Adam Collyer

    March 15, 2010 at 9:05 am

    Agree or disagree with the politics/attitude of Mike Bloomberg, a few years ago on the Charlie Rose Show he made a comment about how when New Yorkers were smart enough to know that certain services had to be paid for and they were willing to spend money because it was going toward reinvigorating the city.

    That’s always been a point of pride amongst my neighbors. New Yorkers don’t expect something for nothing. Everything has a price, and we’re mostly willing to pay for it.

    Of course, this was in a better economic climate….I can’t say that I’d be surprised if that attitude changed.

  16. 16.

    someguy

    March 15, 2010 at 9:06 am

    I know Republicans are evil and all that, and that most things in life that are f***ed up can be blamed on them, but the District has had home rule for close to 15 years now and it’s still a complete cluster, and everything the District government touches turns to sh1t, in this case literally. $10 million parking ticket scandals and $5 million school scandals are common, and you may want to consider carrying cash if a District inspector shows up to look at your plumbing or electrical if you’re renovating your house. Perhaps at some point, we may need to stop blaming Ron Reagan for the Marion Barry legacy…

  17. 17.

    rachel

    March 15, 2010 at 9:06 am

    @Punchy:

    The cognitive dissonance is palatable.

    Mmmmm! Yummy cognitive dissonance!

  18. 18.

    Morbo

    March 15, 2010 at 9:06 am

    And it’s only going to get worse.

  19. 19.

    Adam Collyer

    March 15, 2010 at 9:08 am

    Also, just as a note, we have a real problem in this country with infrastructure that needs to be addressed. The New Deal is now 80 years old. The projects that served us so well for so long need to be redesigned and overhauled. It’s going to take an investment by the American people and we better be willing to do it.

    Crumbling from the inside-out is not something I think my generation had in mind.

  20. 20.

    Zifnab

    March 15, 2010 at 9:11 am

    @HL_guy:

    I said, “Since this water costs almost nothing to use, why don’t we just raise the price so individuals and businesses use less water per person, or in more profitable ways?”

    The only problem with that idea is the massive disparity in incomes make this another regressive tax. If the majority of water use is concentrated in affluent areas (people with big lawns and swimming pools and 4000 sq ft houses), then doubling the rich guy’s meager water bill isn’t going to impact his water use habits if he’s making twenty times as much as his neighbors.

    Meanwhile, impoverished individuals have to tighten already tightened belts.

  21. 21.

    Blue Neponset

    March 15, 2010 at 9:11 am

    @someguy: This is just an example. Go to Bismark, ND or Cranston, RI and you will hear the same thing. Even in my beloved Commonwealth of Massachusetts a property tax override in the next town over failed. The specific reason for the override vote was to keep one of the grammar schools open. The vote failed and now there are a ton of students per class. In 5-7 years when test scores go down the crapper they will be able to point to this vote as one of the reasons.

    It is short sighted selfishness. There is plenty of that everywhere.

  22. 22.

    Ash Can

    March 15, 2010 at 9:14 am

    @Zifnab: John’s point, though, is that finally here’s a government official who’s trying to be accountable, who’s trying to explain just where all the money goes, and these idiots don’t want to hear it. Sure, it would be great if every government entity on every level issued quarterly and annual reports, but how many people do you think would even bother to look at them?

  23. 23.

    BR

    March 15, 2010 at 9:17 am

    Given that it’ll be difficult to stop deficit spending for another few years, and congress is unlikely to either raise taxes (blue dogs will object) or cut spending (mainline dems will object), the upcoming oil problem is going to hit us like a ton of bricks.

    By upcoming oil problem, I mean this:

    http://peakoiltaskforce.net/

    http://peakoiltaskforce.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/final-report-uk-itpoes_report_the-oil-crunch_feb20101.pdf

    In the UK apparently their civil discourse isn’t quite as infantile as ours is, so they can at least discuss the fact that in about 4-5 years the world is likely to face a massive and permanent oil shock.

  24. 24.

    Norbrook

    March 15, 2010 at 9:17 am

    @Zifnab: One of the other problems is that it’s relatively easy for both the politicians and the public to agree on spending for new projects. It’s not easy to get money to repair what they already have. I see this when it comes to parks – I can point to several groups who right now are advocating for the creation of new national parks. What they never do is add money to the budget to maintain the parks we have, so now there’s a 9 billion dollar backlog of maintenance, that’s been getting larger every year. It’s popular to build a new bridge, roads, water lines, or something. Most people tend to think of these things as a “one time deal,” not as the ongoing expense they really incur.

    It shouldn’t be hard for people to understand, but apparently it is – and politicians don’t want to tell them what they think people don’t want to hear.

  25. 25.

    Punchy

    March 15, 2010 at 9:22 am

    I was paying almost $300 a month for gas and electric in my one bedroom apartment.

    That’s unfuckingreal. WOW.

  26. 26.

    Janet Strange

    March 15, 2010 at 9:25 am

    @Zifnab:

    The only problem with that idea is the massive disparity in incomes make this another regressive tax.

    This is really pretty easy to address. Charge a low rate for a basic amount of water that will address most people’s non-extravagant needs and a much higher rate for anything over that. In my city (Austin) the charge for the first 2000 gallons of water is $0.93/1000 gallons. It’s $2.43/1000 gallons for additional water use. Wastewater charges double over 2000 gallons.

    Sure the big lawns and swimming pools people bitch about how unfair it all is, but we’re pretty cool here with using rate structures to encourage conservation. Also, we have a city owned utility, so we don’t feed some private company’s profits. The utility does make a profit, but it goes into the city treasury, lowering our property taxes.

  27. 27.

    Michael

    March 15, 2010 at 9:26 am

    It’s going to take an investment by the American people and we better be willing to do it.

    Demilitarization is about the only way that is going to get accomplished. You can start by shutting down the USAF – they’re fucking useless anyway.

    Next on the block is the bloated military retirement system. Too many guys who topped out as ordinance sergeants with mostly CONUS postings are sucking us dry due to excessive pension and benny packages while voting teabagger.

    Fuck ’em. Let those “heroes” eat dog food. Save the better packages for actual combat vets, not the retired USAF E-7 who worked as a hangar maintenance supervisor in Florida.

  28. 28.

    Robin G

    March 15, 2010 at 9:36 am

    @Punchy: Deregulation — such a beautiful thing.

    @Norbrook:

    Most people tend to think of these things as a “one time deal,” not as the ongoing expense they really incur. It shouldn’t be hard for people to understand, but apparently it is – and politicians don’t want to tell them what they think people don’t want to hear.

    I agree, but I think it’s somewhat unfair to say it’s hard for the people to understand, when no one ever says it. It’s not like the people are, in general, clapping their hands over their ears and going “Lalalalala” — the politicians actively sold these projects and whatnot as one time costs, and just swept under the rug all of the on-going expenses. Then they didn’t do the repairs, people got used to paying $30 a month for water, and then when the politicians come back and go “OMG we need more monies!” the people say, “But water costs $30, and I pay my taxes, so fix it yourself!”

    We do have a big problem with “something for nothing” mentality here in the US, but I think we also need to be honest with ourselves — its from free-market Randian crap that’s been sold to the people as beautiful truth. The American people aren’t just coming up with these ideas all by their lonesome, they’re being told that they’re entitled to all these benefits and tax cuts at the same time, that it’s even possible. Very few people are policy wonks; most are busy enough with trying to stay afloat that they could care less about the details. All they see is that they’re paying what feels like (and, from the perspective of someone barely getting by, is) a much-needed chunk of change, but the roads are falling apart anyway, and now the government says they need more money, and why don’t they seem to be doing anything for the roads with the money you’re already giving them? Yes, people should educate themselves, but a) not a lot have the time for that, and b) there’s an active disinformation campaign out there by Republicans that has to be overcome to even get a shot at seeing the truth.

    Not to mention that if you’ve got a Republican governor (:cough: Pawlenty :cough:), the people are going to be inundated with daily evidence that their tax dollars don’t seem to get them anything, so why just throw more money at it?

    All of this, again, with the caveat that the official in this case seems to be a good guy trying to genuinely educate the public and the guy yelling in the crowd seems like a dick.

  29. 29.

    Mike in NC

    March 15, 2010 at 9:45 am

    Well, ‘Something for Nothing’ was the gospel preached by Saint Reagan, so you can’t do anything about that now, can you?

    The great conservative plan of the last four decades wasn’t to drown government in a bathtub, it was to drown all of us in feces and storm runoff.

    Coupled with the other great conservative plan to ship millions of lower and middle class jobs overseas for short-term profits.

    Maybe they thought we’d all move to Mexico or China, leaving more room for the Masters of the Universe to build bigger mansions.

  30. 30.

    Linda Featheringill

    March 15, 2010 at 9:46 am

    In spite of the fact that some of us have been complaining about infrastructure for a long time, the country is crumbling.

    How will physical collapse within affect our civilization? I don’t know. Historically, some cultures have withered away when their physical facilities were destroyed. Don’t know if we can do any better.

  31. 31.

    jl

    March 15, 2010 at 9:48 am

    Things were much more colorful when we could read about neighborhood privy explosions in the papers, and the threat of such explosions taking out a house or two will also enforce a more stringent code of self-reliance and personal responsibility over one’s privy gases. David Brooks would approve.

    Why is Cole resisting this return to all-American individual responsibility?

    It would also do wonders for the air freshener market, which would be good for jobs!

    So exactly who is being spoiled and childish about this, huh?

  32. 32.

    Steeplejack

    March 15, 2010 at 9:49 am

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    By long-standing convention, “datelines” use cities, not states or areas. And some cities–e.g., Washington, New York, London–are deemed so well known that a qualifier isn’t necessary.

    (Exception to the rule: Occasionally you will see reports from “near the front lines in Iraq,” etc.)

  33. 33.

    ET

    March 15, 2010 at 9:49 am

    As a single DC resident I pay less than $20 a month to DC WASA. Since I have always thought this was a ridiculously low amount I don’t have a problem paying more.

    I am sympathetic to the argument that this is a regressive tax however the people this would hurt the most don’t have problem paying lots of money for those cell phones and cable/satellite so that argument only goes so far.

    Generally speaking government is horrible about explaining to people what they get for the money and people are notorious for not caring when they try.

    Infrastructure is like the roof on your house. It is not sexy or shiny and obvious. You can’t see it and you take it for granted. You hate shelling out the money so you delay. Of course when it fails it fails badly. You still end up having to pay for the roof and generally have to pay more because of all of the problems the failure caused.

    With infrastructure the added problem is the cascading problems are little understood by most. Of course those yelling the loudest will likely be the whineist when it fails (i.e. Councleman Graham – one of the biggest idiots on the council).

  34. 34.

    west coast

    March 15, 2010 at 9:51 am

    The Norquist right altered the old saying to: Billions for defense, but not one cent for socialist infrastructure!

    Morains, all of them.

  35. 35.

    Phyllis

    March 15, 2010 at 9:52 am

    @Zifnab:

    Everyone knows money is being collected – lots of money. But no one knows how that money is being spent, and no one knows how much a functional infrastructure actually costs. So when you tell a guy making $15 / hour that he’s being greedy for demanding a water bill on par with his cell phone bill, you’re not going to make a lot of friends.

    A prime example of this is going on in Columbia SC right now. City Council has been raiding the water/sewer coffers for years for the general fund and other projects to the tune of 70 million+, while ignoring the need for repairs & upgrades. It’s coming home to roost for them now.

  36. 36.

    Citizen_X

    March 15, 2010 at 9:56 am

    That half trillion dollars plus we are spending on the military could probably come in handy.

    What, and not be able to defeat the Soviet Union at a moment’s notice? I guess you don’t love a Strong America(c)

    @Michael: OK, here I disagree. We made a commitment to those guys, whatever their duty station. Cutting them off would be a regressive way of balancing budgets or paying for needed investment. Let the contractors who have been riding the gravy train for decades pay. They can win contracts for better batteries or something else cheaper and more necessary.

  37. 37.

    norbizness

    March 15, 2010 at 10:03 am

    I too want to look great in sexy high heels.

  38. 38.

    Leo

    March 15, 2010 at 10:03 am

    @Punchy: And in StL right now there’s a lawsuit pending to strike down the entire storm drain/sewer rate structure and force any future revenue measures to go on the ballot. Meanwhile, because of capacity issues, when it rains really hard we have human shit flowing into the Mississippi. I’m sure that putting sewer rate issues on the ballot will quickly lead to that problem resolving itself.

  39. 39.

    ChrisS

    March 15, 2010 at 10:03 am

    The higher taxes people are experiencing are pretty much in line with the economy – except that American’s wages are stagnant or even in decline compared to 40 years ago. Flat wages combined with higher property prices make taxes seem like they’re gobbling up more and more income. Some school districts are paying more for buildings and technology and teachers (plus a dedicated bus fleet) compared to the 1950s, but shouldn’t the next generation be invested in?

    There’s no way to combat the feeling of taxes not returning the same bang of the buck without heavily increasing the tax on five-percenters that are making billions off of globalization and redistributing that back to the people that are getting killed by globalization. But that’s socialist and communist. And the tea-baggers are eating that shit up.

  40. 40.

    AhabTRuler

    March 15, 2010 at 10:05 am

    PEPCO is the elctricity supplier for DC; gas is supplied by ashintin Gas.

    And any discussion of the city gov’t’s disfunction must also include a discussion of the depressed tax base, the impact of Federal property ownership on commmercial property tax revenues, and Congress’ quashing of a commuter tax.

  41. 41.

    Mnemosyne

    March 15, 2010 at 10:07 am

    I don’t know how it is in other states, but in California the big agricultural companies get their water dirt-cheap and end up wasting a huge amount of it because they have no incentive to even try and conserve.

    When up to 80 percent of the water in California is used for agriculture, people are going to get pissed when you tell them that they have to pay much higher prices for their residential water use so the farming companies can continue to waste water.

  42. 42.

    ChrisS

    March 15, 2010 at 10:07 am

    In moderation hell …

    wages stay flat
    taxes stay the same percentage-wise
    property values go up

    taxes take bigger chunk of income, same or fewer services

    solution: raise taxes on the fiver-percenters, redistribute wealth, cut military budget

    pros: stimulate economy, reinvest in America
    cons: socialist, tyranny, never-gonna-happen

  43. 43.

    Skepticat

    March 15, 2010 at 10:08 am

    Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.

    The torrential rain we’re having here in Massachusetts is creating expensive problems, and the public work crews are out in force. You’d think Mother Nature is getting a commission.

  44. 44.

    Face

    March 15, 2010 at 10:09 am

    If only D.C. could put a tax on every ounce of salt used to prepare restaurant foods, they’d have enough to repair a few pipes.

    By the way, they should ask Edwards, Ensign, Spitzer, and other Congys to make the repairs. I see in the news, almost daily, how often they love to lay pipe.

  45. 45.

    Citizen_X

    March 15, 2010 at 10:10 am

    @Leo: You know, one of the positions the Teabaggers are pushing is to require a two-thirds majority to pass any new taxes.

    Because that’s worked so well for California, right?

  46. 46.

    Punchy

    March 15, 2010 at 10:12 am

    I’m sure that putting sewer rate issues on the ballot will quickly lead to that problem resolving itself.

    Honest question — when’s the last time voters voted themselves a tax hike to pay for shit? I’ve never ever, EVER heard of one of these amendments passing.

  47. 47.

    Michael

    March 15, 2010 at 10:13 am

    We made a commitment to those guys, whatever their duty station. Cutting them off would be a regressive way of balancing budgets or paying for needed investment.

    Too many of the non-combat pension suckers are teabaggers, though. I think it would be fun to let them scramble around in all this free enterprise just to feed their bloated redneck jowls, not to mention having to navigate our fine private healthcare system.

  48. 48.

    nancydarling

    March 15, 2010 at 10:13 am

    Water is the new oil. We want cheap oil so we can tool along the highway in our clever little cars without paying the true cost in blood and treasure. We want to flush endlessly and have green lawns without paying the true cost. We want the ponies we have been promised without the inevitable piles of shit they will produce

  49. 49.

    The Moar You Know

    March 15, 2010 at 10:14 am

    Next on the block is the bloated military retirement system. Too many guys who topped out as ordinance sergeants with mostly CONUS postings are sucking us dry due to excessive pension and benny packages while voting teabagger. Fuck ‘em. Let those “heroes” eat dog food. Save the better packages for actual combat vets, not the retired USAF E-7 who worked as a hangar maintenance supervisor in Florida.

    @Michael: Horseshit. Just because you weren’t smart enough, or vocal enough, to be willing to fight for your rights, don’t take away some guy’s retirement who worked for it. The problem isn’t that he has a good retirement package, it’s that YOU have a shit one (or most likely, none at all). And that’s not the fault of the E-7 hangar supervisor. It’s yours. You were willing to settle for less, and now you’ve got it.

    Your sentiment, frankly is pure teabagger – “If I don’t have something nice I’m going to make fucking sure that nobody else does, either.”

  50. 50.

    AhabTRuler

    March 15, 2010 at 10:14 am

    ashintin Gas = Washington Gas

  51. 51.

    Rick Taylor

    March 15, 2010 at 10:18 am

    Trillions to fund wars all over the globe, but we’ll tea party them if they make us pay for water. I don’t understand this country.

  52. 52.

    eyepaddle

    March 15, 2010 at 10:19 am

    @Zifnab:

    I believe the best response to concerns such as that are graduated water bills–the first x number of cubic feet are free (or very low cost) and then the price is ratcheted up for each additional unit delivered.

    There are a lot of ways to skin that particular cat (many have been tried in drier and poorer countries so we could look to those for examples) but I think the assumption is to allow for very cheap basic needs (showering, toilet use, cooking and cleaning) and expensive swimming pool and golf course lawn mainienance.

  53. 53.

    ChrisS

    March 15, 2010 at 10:19 am

    @Mnemosyne:

    I’ve read that something like 50% of Atlanta’s water is lost to leaks in decaying infrastructure.

    http://www.11alive.com/news/local/drought/story.aspx?storyid=128096

    “The city of Atlanta loses on average about a million gallons of water every day to leaks in its aging drinking water system.”

  54. 54.

    Corner Stone

    March 15, 2010 at 10:20 am

    @Michael: There are a few different “Michael” ‘s (with no other initial) that post here and it’s playing absolute hell with my snark meter.

  55. 55.

    eyepaddle

    March 15, 2010 at 10:26 am

    @eyepaddle:

    Oops, I see I missed pretty much this exact reply upthread!

    It’s still nice to put my old, almost-forgotten hydrogeology to use every once in awhile though.

  56. 56.

    bcinaz

    March 15, 2010 at 10:27 am

    @Punchy: Same here in AZ, our schools alread rank pretty close to the bottom, we’ve been suffering drought conditions and water rationing for years, everybody wants good roads, safe streets, a fire department that answers the alarm; our legislature is no better at responding to a budget crisis than California’s.

    And on topic. Let the pipes fail. Make the smug idiots fighting a rate hike have to get their water out of a truck for a few months and take baths in recycled water.

  57. 57.

    Corpsicle

    March 15, 2010 at 10:27 am

    @Corner Stone: Exactly. Is this one being sarcastic, or is he just a brainless douchebag?

  58. 58.

    Leo

    March 15, 2010 at 10:32 am

    @Punchy:

    when’s the last time voters voted themselves a tax hike to pay for shit?

    Pun intentional?

    Anyway, I agree with you. If this goes on the ballot we will never see another dime for the sewer district.

  59. 59.

    Zifnab

    March 15, 2010 at 10:37 am

    @eyepaddle: I’ve got a forty foot hard-on for Austin, so that system instantly sounds good. And this would definitely be the intelligent way to approach water use without imposing a hard cap.

    Still, am I reading that right? $.93 / gallon for the first 1000 gallons? That’s practically grocery store prices. Are you sure it’s not $.093 / gallon?

  60. 60.

    Corner Stone

    March 15, 2010 at 10:42 am

    @Zifnab: You must have trouble parking.

  61. 61.

    ruemara

    March 15, 2010 at 10:47 am

    I work in local government in california. After many years, I am sure that the bulk of californians are waiting for a serious, dramatic, body-count watching disaster to understand they must not only pay taxes, but tell their legislature to make sure that the richest amongst us pay their damn taxes. And the ignorance of it all, willful ignorance is galling. America is crumbling and you can’t get americans to quit being crazy jingoistic and hear the hard truths. Before this decade is out, that idiot is going to look at $60 a month for water as a golden age of cheap.

  62. 62.

    Comrade Dread

    March 15, 2010 at 10:48 am

    Well, the cost of maintenance is a projected long term estimate, so the utilities should have been built into the rates from the beginning. Therefore, I can understand a certain rate of ire among the current generation of customers who will now be footing the bill.

    However, that being said, the rational approach would be to realize that you’re being screwed, but it’s unavoidable, so your best option is to demand changes to the system so that this doesn’t happen for your grandkids in another 80 years.

    Also, I’m so proud we could take hundreds of billions of dollars to shoddily rebuild the infrastructure of Iraq that we needlessly bombed into disarray to begin with, when we have crumbling sewer lines at home.

    So I think the problem is two-fold: the public demands a certain level of service, but is often unwilling to suck it up and pay for it, and government spending is often misguided, stupid, and unaccounted for.

    Kudos to this guy for trying to explain that side, at least…

  63. 63.

    Bill H

    March 15, 2010 at 10:48 am

    Well, this is one place I actually get to brag about the people of San Diego. We get our water in part from the Colorado River and in part from the Northern California delta. We’ve had rate increases every year for seven years, and in some years two increases, and the smallest has been 8% or so. Water bills have more than doubled. This year we have rationing.

    You know how much people complain? Not. People just shrug, use less water and say, “Well, that’s the cost of living in a desert.” People bitch about taxes, they march in the street over closing libraries, but water rates… We’re cool with that.

  64. 64.

    Corner Stone

    March 15, 2010 at 10:54 am

    @ruemara:

    After many years, I am sure that the bulk of californians are waiting for a serious, dramatic, body-count watching disaster to understand they must not only pay taxes, but tell their legislature to make sure that the richest amongst us pay their damn taxes. And the ignorance of it all, willful ignorance is galling. America is crumbling and you can’t get americans to quit being crazy jingoistic and hear the hard truths.

    As I am sure you are well aware, when that disaster happens and they can’t turn a faucet or otherwise immediately get what they are used to they will scream to the highest heavens about how awful govt is and where the hell did all their tax money they’ve been paying go!

  65. 65.

    lol

    March 15, 2010 at 10:55 am

    @Punchy:

    Oregon this year.

  66. 66.

    Cydney

    March 15, 2010 at 10:59 am

    I don’t blame the person in this article complaining about local taxes. My gas, water, and phone bill seems to mysteriously increase every couple of months. I’m not getting extra services, but new and higher taxes appear all the time. There isn’t any construction happening on the water pipes that I can see. It’s frustrating to the average consumer to have to pay more for what seems to be nothing with no accompanying explanation of *why* we have to pay more for services that used to be dirt cheap.

    We don’t already pay enough to keep up our infrastructure? Bullshit. I’m lower middle class, single, and child-free, and I pay plenty. Ask someone with real wealth to pay more. Ask the corporations to pay more. Stop spending so much on “defense” around the world.

    People know that *something* is wrong with our government, and they don’t know how to stop it, so all they can do is lash out.

  67. 67.

    ChrisS

    March 15, 2010 at 11:02 am

    “Well, the cost of maintenance is a projected long term estimate, so the utilities should have been built into the rates from the beginning.”

    True, but a lot of places have experienced crazy population growth in suburby-sprawl areas. It costs a lot less to pipe water over 10 square miles to service 100,000 people than it does to pipe water over 50 square miles to service 50,000 people. So when utilities have to extend their service areas, money gets eated up. And 50-75 years of maintenance is a lot of money that gets deferred so that politicians can pay for other necessary and possibly unnecessary services without hiking taxes (win-win!).

    I really like progessive water rates and can’t understand why more places don’t embrace them.

  68. 68.

    Jay in Oregon

    March 15, 2010 at 11:02 am

    It’s times like this that I understand why people tune out in front of their TVs or play World of Warcraft.

    Of course, that just accelerates the decline of empire…

  69. 69.

    Nylund

    March 15, 2010 at 11:07 am

    Does anyone else see the irony in that quite a few Americans pay THOUSANDS of times MORE per unit of water voluntarily ALL THE TIME when they buy bottled water at the store?

    At home you pay what? A couple cents per gallon, if that, and it might go up by a fraction of a cent and people claim highway robbery. Yet, most of them will at some point walk into a store and pay $1.50 for a quart of tap water without any qualms whatsoever. (many brands, like Dasani, really are just tap water).

    Maybe if these people had to pay Evian to flush their toilet or water their plants they’d realize just what a great deal we Americans get for a commodity that quite literally, most people in the world are DYING to get their hands on.

  70. 70.

    les

    March 15, 2010 at 11:14 am

    @Punchy:

    Too right. And the genesis of the KC school problems was a desegregation ruling, itself the product of voters refusing to approve a school funding bond issue for something like 4 decades.

  71. 71.

    Francis

    March 15, 2010 at 11:16 am

    hmm. As a (currently unemployed due to recession) California water/land use lawyer, this is a topic I know a lot about. And the short answer is that there aren’t any easy answers.

    Ag — The physical corpus of water is free; it just falls from the skies. The cost of water is in the energy needed to move it to where the people are, in cleaning it, and in building the infrastructure and purchasing the water rights and infrastructure to have 100% reliability. Farmers’ water (a) is shipped much shorter distances; (b) isn’t potable; and (c) gets cut first. So, it’s cheaper.

    Market pricing: There’s no such thing as a free market for water. If you don’t have it, you’ll pay any price. On the other hand, residential delivery is as pure a monopoly as exists. (what, you want two sets of water pipes in your street?) Because of these two factors (plus health issues, sewage disposal, etc.), people (voters) have always insisted that government heavily regulate the delivery of water.

    Maintenance — Cities for years have stolen from their water funds. (That’s finally illegal in California.) So voters created special purpose water districts. But nobody cares about those agencies so they become rife with cronyism, corruption and incompetence. So voters turn over their districts to regulated utilities. But they need to return a profit to their investors, so rates are higher and there’s still no guarantee of competent regular maintenance. And so it goes.

  72. 72.

    Elie

    March 15, 2010 at 11:21 am

    I read this thread and I find myself without words to describe what I feel after 2 1/2 weeks in Vietnam, a burgeoning economy in the new Asia — filled with youth and energy — and swimming in garbage and unregulated toxins flowing into the rivers, streams, rice paddies and ocean…

    We are so wealthy and in theory more knowledgeable about what the impacts of unregulated dumping and unclean water can mean — the payment that would come due should we not keep this up…

    Human beings are almost at the point of maximum carrying capacity for this finite world of ours. We pay now, or pay big time later, but pay we definitely will and the cost may be the ultimate correction….

    We in the US are in a balloon of delusion… go to a corner in Hanoi, or Shanghai or Delhi and look carefully what people are doing to survive and tell yourself that we are going to be able to keep up our bullshit for long. Lets tell those people as they work two and three jobs to make ends meet how we are pissed to pay the relatively small proportion of our incomes for our clean water and flush toilets while they grovel to recycle parts for their motorcycles and hock anything sellable from dawn to dusk.

    We are fools.

  73. 73.

    ruemara

    March 15, 2010 at 11:23 am

    @Jay in Oregon:

    I object to this statement as a tv fan and a warcraft fan. Yet I am also a person who writes on politics and food while being very politically active. If you choose to care, nothing is an opiate.

  74. 74.

    Norbrook

    March 15, 2010 at 11:31 am

    @Robin G:

    I agree, but I think it’s somewhat unfair to say it’s hard for the people to understand, when no one ever says it. It’s not like the people are, in general, clapping their hands over their ears and going “Lalalalala”—the politicians actively sold these projects and whatnot as one time costs, and just swept under the rug all of the on-going expenses. Then they didn’t do the repairs, people got used to paying $30 a month for water, and then when the politicians come back and go “OMG we need more monies!” the people say, “But water costs $30, and I pay my taxes, so fix it yourself!”

    I think it’s fair in that the first thing people scream about is their taxes. Now, I agree that there should be acknowledgment that there’s ongoing costs, and they should be built into the budgets for the future. The problem is that if people are told “we’re going to extend the water line to X village, and it’s going to cost Y dollars to build, and we’re going to add Z dollars a year to your tax bill to keep it up,” either it won’t get built, or people start complaining about the tax raise when it’s a new line. I see it happen all the time.

    It’s also quite true that the first thing that gets cut when budgets are tight, and politicians are looking to cut taxes is maintenance. In my area, there’s a state agency maintenance facility. It used to have about 25 full-time employees, who were responsible for a sizable area. Right now, there’s 10 people there, and it’s looking like they’re going to be cut some more. None of their responsibilities has decreased, but every time the budget gets tight, lo and behold, some of the field positions (which this is) get pruned back. The end result is that they tend to run from one disaster to another, instead of doing what they used to do, fixing it before it got to that point.

    Yes, I’d love to see that better understood by the public, and yes, I’d like the politicians to step up on that. Unfortunately, the common gripe is the taxes and the “evil government workers” – so it’s not until it fails that someone wonders why it wasn’t fixed.

  75. 75.

    IndieTarheel

    March 15, 2010 at 11:34 am

    @Corpsicle: Is there any reason he can’t be…oh, wait…

  76. 76.

    Janet Strange

    March 15, 2010 at 11:56 am

    @Zifnab: That was me with the Austin prices. Yes, it’s $.93/1000 for the first 2000. I picked up last Feb’s water bill and I used 2700 gallons. Bill for water = $8.91including the $5.35 “customer charge.” But wastewater is billed separately, reflecting its higher cost of infrastructure and processing wastewater I suppose. That bill was $18.49 – and the rate was higher for the 700 over 2000, just like the water part. Still cheap given how miraculous it is that we get clean safe water at the turn of a tap, when so many in the world don’t have that.

  77. 77.

    toujoursdan

    March 15, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    @Adam Collyer:

    I only wish that were true but look at the decaying state of the MTA. Anyone who knows where the funding comes from is aware that most of the recent shortfall is due to falling real estate prices and taxes. But if one looks at the City Room section of the New York Times they all believe that firing the head of the MTA and opening their books is going to rebalance the budget. The MTA has had corruption problems but even transforming it into the most efficient organization in the world isn’t going to fix this hole.

    @BR:

    I watched that movie over the weekend and it is spot on. I have been a follower of James Howard Kunstler for years. Everyone should read The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of Oil, Climate Change, and Other Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-First Century. Anthropologist Jared Diamond’s book Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed

    We’re pretty much in a classic Malthusian Collapse scenario and I fear that it is only going to get worse.

  78. 78.

    Seanly

    March 15, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    I guess Norquist was wrong about one detail. The great conservative plan of the last four decades wasn’t to drown government in a bathtub, it was to drown all of us in feces and storm runoff.

    Win.

    And new regulations require the storm runoff and sewer to be separated. Yes, more money to build concurrent systems, but savings every year when you don’t need to treat all the runoff.

    There are many other areas of the infrastructures that are in relatively similar states of crisis. Check out the latest ASCE Infrastructure Report Card. Full disclosure – I am a card-carrying member of ASCE and stand to personally profit (ie, remain employed) when we get our heads out of our asses and start devoting more money to infrastructure.

    I had a buddy who once asked me why we don’t privatize all road work. Number 1 – it is mostly privatized. Most engineering work is done by consultants and low-bid contractors build it. The pared down local or state agencies more & more just provide oversight and review/approval and even some of those functions are being performed now by consultants. Number 2 – how do you pay for it? There just isn’t any means better than taxes to collect money from everyone to have the government or contracted agents perform work. Privatizing doesn’t make the cost of something magically go away.

  79. 79.

    tigrismus

    March 15, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    @Seanly: Privatizing doesn’t make the cost of something magically go away.

    The notion that it does stuns me; sure it can sometimes lower costs, but in many cases things cost what they cost, and the need to make a profit over that cost is not an issue when the public sector does something.

  80. 80.

    trollhattan

    March 15, 2010 at 2:14 pm

    @ 41 Mnemosyne

    I don’t know how it is in other states, but in California the big agricultural companies get their water dirt-cheap and end up wasting a huge amount of it because they have no incentive to even try and conserve.
    __
    When up to 80 percent of the water in California is used for agriculture, people are going to get pissed when you tell them that they have to pay much higher prices for their residential water use so the farming companies can continue to waste water.

    What people hear instead is Noted Water Expert Herr Hannity telling a group of pissed-off (& wealthy) Westlands farmers that the reason they don’t have sufficient water isn’t a three-year drought but rather, a three-inch golldurn minnow.

    FWIW the state water project delivers its product to the water contractors (who are primarily urban) for the actual cost of delivery, i.e., the actual cost of building, operating and maintaining the system, including the bond financing costs.

    The federal project, OTOH, delivers subsidized water mostly to agriculture. To “fix” the purported lack of supply would only take changing the contract cost to reflect the actual cost of delivery. This will occur approximately on that day the sun rises in the west.

    What’s happening instead is folks are getting out of the raising crops business and into the water marketing business. It’s a lot less work.

  81. 81.

    DonBelacquaDelPurgatorio

    March 15, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    The great conservative plan of the last four decades wasn’t to drown government in a bathtub, it was to drown all of us in feces and storm runoff.
    __
    That half trillion dollars plus we are spending on the military could probably come in handy. As could those tax cuts that fueled the awesome “growth” of the Bush era.

    This is surely my favorite blurb from a BJ top post of all time.

    The drowning scheme has worked. Alas, it is us that gets drowneded. You are doing a heckuva job, Grover!

    First drowned in shit, and then raptured. Isn’ t that exactly what Nostradamus predicted, after all?

  82. 82.

    AngusTheGodOfMeat

    March 15, 2010 at 2:52 pm

    We want to flush endlessly

    Not really. Just once each time I ….. well, you know.

    Of course, I am just not into recreational flushing the way some of you are.

    Although now that I am retired, I might try it as a new hobby.

  83. 83.

    elaine

    March 15, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    I’ll take the flush once reliably, please for extra tax money.

    Here’s your example of failed infrastructure: Dec 30th either a sewer or water main burst one block south of me. Then the other main broke. Then there was the first of two related gas line leaks. It took a month to fix the problem. For that entire month, my neighbors had their feces and urine vaccuumed out of their houses by pump trucks running day and night. And now the repaired area is collapsing, causing structural damage to the sidewalks and possibly nearby houses.

    So you know, a few extra tax dollars are starting to look really appealing to me.

    Of course, that doesn’t help if you don’t have the extra dollars, which is why some tax hikes are non-starters…

  84. 84.

    goblue72

    March 15, 2010 at 3:58 pm

    @Nylund: Not only that, but the same water that comes out of your tap that is potable to drink is the same water going into your toilet to shit in or to water your lawn.

    The amount of water wasted in this country is obscene.

  85. 85.

    JohnR

    March 15, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    “I don’t care why these pipes aren’t working!” one of the residents yelled. “I pay $60 a month for water! I just want my toilet to flush! Why do I need to know how it works?”

    Let me translate for you: “Don’t tell me facts I don’t care about!” one of the residents yelled. “I just want Santa Claus to bring me my stuff like he always did when I was a child! Why should I have to pay for what I get – this isn’t how capitalism is supposed to work!”

  86. 86.

    grumpy realist

    March 15, 2010 at 7:05 pm

    Reminds me how my condo fees have just gone up $50/month which actually has me grinning from ear to ear. I’ve been bitching to the condo board for a year about tweaking the rates so we have all the expected projected replacement expenses built in (including the $70K for replacing the roof 30 years down the road.) They’ve finally done it. (The $50 is overkill, mainly to pick up the lack of investment last year. I expect it to go down next year.)

    Infrastructure: something that libertarians don’t believe exists, or something that gets built by the Infrastructure Fairy.

  87. 87.

    The Raven

    March 16, 2010 at 12:02 am

    @Zifnab:

    But no one knows how that money is being spent, and no one knows how much a functional infrastructure actually costs.

    This is public information. In most places in the USA (except the incredibly corrupt ones), it is easy to find. Believe me, no-one listens to the people who make the systems work–they’re usually delighted to explain when someone asks politely.

    Hominids. You’d think they’d forgotten they’re all going to end up as food or something.

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