Norman Ornstein (in an excellent post) asks:
That strategy, then decried by the House Democrats who are now using it, and now being called unconstitutional by WSJ editorialists, was defended by House Republicans in court (and upheld). Dreier used it for a $40 billion deficit reduction package so that his fellow GOPers could avoid an embarrassing vote on immigration. I don’t like self-executing rules by either party—I prefer the “regular order”—so I am not going to say this is a great idea by the Democrats. But even so—is there no shame anymore?
Shame went away about 20 years ago. We’re in a post-shame era.
I love Norman Ornstein and I like to ask questions like this in my posts too. But, no, there is no shame anymore, reality doesn’t matter anymore, there are no moderate Republicans in Washington anymore, etc.
We live in a really fucked up world, politically. Let’s accept that once and for all.
Things will remain this way until demographic changes make it impossible for Republicans to hold large enough minorities to have influence in Washington. So we are in for another 10-15 years of this. Hunker down.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Even more of a shame, IMHO, that we’re in a post ‘regular order’ era.
beltane
I take it Norm Orenstein has been asleep since at least 1994. Shame? Don’t make me laugh.
demo woman
OT.. If anyone is watching the President on FOX, can he/she please update us?
Cat Lady
They don’t have shame, but they’ve got victimhood cranked up to eleventy.
ajr22
Some Republican hack on msnbc was so eager to bash hcr today, that he came out in favor of the public option. I’m pretty sure there is no shame left for these people.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@beltane: Ornstein, IIRC, was a wonky critic of Republicans at least back to 2003, 04, on the old Franken show. He may have even turned against them back during Impeachment. I remember reading his column and thinking “This guy’s with AEI?” Can’t remember specifically.
Lev
It won’t take 15 years. The demographic trends are important, but if HCR passes, Obama wins another term and the Cheney/Rove wing of the party doesn’t produce victories, it might be a lot sooner.
Corner Stone
I expect full on gerrymandering and abuse of power by the US Attorneys still in place to stop this.
Get ready for the generation of Mother of All Vote Fraud.
JGabriel
Yes, it was decried by the Democrats, who took the GOP to court over it. The GOP won.
So if the GOP doesn’t like it, they have only their own “originalist” judges* to thank for it.
.
DougJ
@Corner Stone:
Every day the bucket a-go a well,
One day the bottom a-go drop out,
Ana Gama
But Eric Cantor thinks the “deem & pass” is legit, and said as much today. (I bet he thought ABC news would keep it a secret, though.)
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2010/03/17/hoyer-cantor-deem/
mcc
Seeing this reported in several places. Getting a bit worried. The CBO score that is needed to hold the reconciliation vote is not and some reports are that it’s not because the CBO is late, it’s because the CBO gave the reconciliation bill a failing score (i.e. found the reconciliation bill would increase the deficit over 20 years) and the Democrats are scrambling to make some fixes.
Zifnab
In this peculiar instance, it’s more significant and legitimate than in any other previous case I could name. You’ve got two pieces of legislation, joined at the hip. And you don’t want to risk the awkward possibility that the first bill passes but the second bill false, because support for the first bill is predicated on the passage of the second bill.
We are in this ridiculous stance because of a host of other arcane and convoluted previous rules in both the House and the Senate. Declaring the self-executing rule sacred today, after we’ve been fighting over the legitimacy of the filibuster and quorum calls and committee practices and reconciliation is absurd. If you’re going to argue against obscure rule 27A, you’re going to have to argue against the whole rulebook. One rule begat the others.
Ultimately, there was never any shame. The Republicans don’t want the bill to pass and they’ll argue every angle from swearing in Senator Franken to the final, inevitable SCOTUS hearing, to kill it. That they’ve gotten more creative simply illustrates how they’ve grown more desperate.
We probably do need to sit down and rewrite the Congressional rulebook. But we’ve been slowly doing that the last 230 years, and with the current gridlock I don’t see us whipping out white out and fresh ink faster. Let Orienstien petition his congressman, start a facebook group, rally some signatures, and go after this system if he likes. We could use a little more proactive reform.
But let’s not pretend all these arguments on procedure are anything other than another volley in the health care debate.
Violet
That’s so cute. You’d almost think he’s been asleep for the last 20 years or so and woke up to find himself in GlenBeckistan. Adorable.
But seriously, is he just asking that question now? Where the heck has he been for the last ten-ish years? It’s not a question – “is there no shame anymore?” It’s a statement – “Republicans have no shame. Here, yet again, is one more example.”
Randy P
Just out of curiosity and to close the hypocrisy loop, did the WSJ write an editorial defending the practice when the Dems were challenging it in court and the Republicans were defending it?
Mike Kay
No. They will still be able to fuck things up unless the Senate rules are reformed. Just look at how unemployment insurance was dragged out for 4/5 days because of one senator. They can do that on every single piece of legislation.
Grayson said today, there are 270 bills passed in the House that the Senate hasn’t voted on. And why, because goopers have poured molasses on all the gears.
Mike Kay
@Randy P: Not sure the Dems challenged it in court. It was probably a third party group, like the ACLU.
The danger is that the Goopers go to court to have this overturned, which if successful, would open the flood gates to throw out every piece of legislation the goopers passed using this procedure. Talk about cutting off your nose…
wmd
A weak public option would fix the CBO score.
Demographic changes may happen sooner than 10-15 years. The key is to re-engage the Millennials. If we can keep turnout up among 18-30 year olds we’ll see change much sooner than 10-15 years. And frankly the status quo should make it easy to motivate these voters as they see that it doesn’t work.
Yes we can – may not be Obama’s performance, but the Millennials can be convinced to make things keep happening.
Randy P
@Zifnab:
As I understand it, when the next Congress begins in 2011 so does a new rulebook, and I thought I heard somebody talking about new filibuster rules. But maybe I hallucinated that.
wmd
@Mike Kay:
Pelosi and Waxman were parties to the suit.
Zifnab
@Corner Stone: Voter fraud is, ultimately, a local thing. It’s much easier to cheat at the local level where individual votes are being tallied and the paper trail is short, than to cheat at the national level sitting at the DoJ or in Dick Cheney’s underground lair.
If the locals don’t want to participate in the voter fraud, it gets harder to rig the vote. I’m not sure how much grassroots support voter shenanigans are going to get this year, when the entire country is in “throw the bums out!” mode.
The local Tea Parties are going to be politically active, but they aren’t going to be as tied to the GOP as a fully fledged Republican party branch. I think the voter fraud of 2000 through 2004 isn’t going to be eclipsed for a while.
Tonal Crow
Ornstein has been going off the reservation — sometimes by leagues — quite regularly in the past year or so. I wonder how long it’ll be before AEI fires his ass?
Zifnab
@Randy P: Technically, you get a new set of rules every 2 years. But doing a full rewrite of the rules would invoke massive dissent both inside and across parties. Rules don’t vary much session to session.
Tonal Crow
@Zifnab:
You’re forgetting e-voting machines, which can be centrally programmed to cheat. And no, “voter-verified paper” receipts/”ballots” don’t help, in part because most voters don’t verify them.
Tim O
You know, not that I want to give winning advice to Republicans, but a guy like Paul Ryan, if he were smart, could save his party. How quickly would moderate rank and file Republicans and right leaning independents jump back to the GOP if he were to attempt to bring some actual reasoned tone into the debate from the right?
Again I don’t say this to help them, because I wholeheartedly want the Progressive Agenda implemented. But a bright young man, a new (mythical) maverick if you will, could really do some damage. The press would fall to their knees worshiping him.
I say this because unlike Pawlenty and others, he actually has a brain and is articulate. Thank the gods, Erick Erickson has his new found power, which will insure any reasonable conservative will never get a whiff.
Mike Kay
@mcc: Better Sunday than a saturday. It’ll make a bigger splash on the Sunday/Monday news cycle.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
The polling on HCR is already moving in dems favor and has drawn about even with opponents of it. Likely showing many of the no on HCR was about the messy process and disappointed dems. Once it passes, and if dems and Obama do a good selling job between now and election day, a big if mind you, and if the economy keeps showing signs of recovery, dems should do OK. They certainly won’t win bigger majorities and will lose some seats, particularly in red districts where the tea bag mentality rules the roost.
But the big dem massacre at the polls now trumpeted by the wingnuts will fizzle big time. The gooper campaign of lies and obstruction on health care reform will come around and bite them in the ass when people learn they will have more security with maintaining good insurance, not just on paper.
It has to pass for that to happen, which is why the GOP is pulling out all the stops and dropping any pretense, if any was left, to lying about everything all the time. When it passes, even without a PO, it will be the last card played and lost toward their preventing the New Deal coming full circle as completed.
Then things will get really crazy.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@demo woman: HuffPo says it got testy
Mike E
Our never-ending national tantrum.
Tonal Crow
On the deeming resolution itself, I dislike the process because it’s murky and hacky. However, I think that the cries of “unconstitutional” — aside from being hypocritical — are very likely incorrect. This is internal House procedure, which Art.I s.5 cl.2 (“Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings…”) puts pretty much entirely within the House’s discretion. The bill is still voted upon, to pass by a majority vote or fail by its lack. It’s immaterial that it’s wrapped up with other stuff (the rules for considering the reconciliation bill) that is also approved or not by the same vote.
Mike Kay
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
Bravo!
Corner Stone
@Zifnab:
Actual fraud is only a small part of what I am referring to. It’s the constant drum beat of vote fraud that keeps the citizenry from accepting legitimate election results, and keeps the certain segment of people up in arms about govt. Sometimes literally.
The gerrymandering is definitely real, but it’s the shadow cast over legitimate govt I am mentioning here.
Corner Stone
@DougJ: Well, you’re my only black friend so I’ll take your word for it.
John S.
Uh huh.
These same Millennials?
And that’s just over the fact they can’t get more paid vacation and a corner office their first job out of college. I suspect they are a lot of the people that clog the intertubes with their tales of woe over Obama not giving them a pony yet.
So yeah, not gonna hold my breath on that one.
Martin
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
They ask for his birth certificate? Ask when he’d rename us the ‘People’s Soc!ialist Republic of America’? Ask him for his favorite hamhock and collard green recipe?
(Not that any of those would shock me from Fox)
Snarki, child of Loki
@Mike Kay:
Nah, the robed goopers in the court just do a “ignore precedent only for this one” move, as in Dec 2000.
It’s all so easy when you have not a single shred of shame.
demo woman
@Martin: Fox tends to block youtube but maybe Josh at tpm can snag it.
Mike M
Frankly, I don’t see any problem with a self-executing rule. If a joint House-Senate conference committee agreed to compromise legislation, the final bill would have had only one vote anyway (aside from all the separate feet-dragging procedural votes).
Republicans give Oscar-worthy performances claiming that Democrats are trying to pull a fast one and approve legislation without actual voting for it, but the claim is bogus and everyone in Congress and the media know it. There is no mystery about the process; it has been followed so many times as to be nearly routine.
People argue process when they are unable to win the argument based on substance.
mcc
@Mike E: I feel like I shouldn’t bring this up, but I cannot help but wonder if what’s left of the “kill the bill” crowd on the left will now rally behind the tenthers challenging the mandate.
Martin
@demo woman: I’ll bet anything the WH will have the full interview posted. If not, Maddow, Stewart, and Colbert will have to suffice for me.
Mitch Guthman
There are still moderate Republicans. Obama is basically a moderate Republican.
Mike E
@mcc: Crazier bets have paid off lately. A sure sign has been the gnashing of progressive teeth all through the intertoobs–I think twice before I bait the outrage trolls on GOS, ’cause I don’t want to be the one who pushes them over the Hamsher.
Mike Kay
@mcc: Well, I’ve seen that pop up in their comment section.
Joseph Nobles
HA!
I just thought – why not a constitutional amendment that treats filibusters like presidential vetos? Maintaining the two/thirds majority needed for the second vote, of course, but if the Senate can’t invoke cloture on a bill the House has already passed, the President of the Senate can decide to send the bill back to the House for a second override vote and then on to the President?
I know, it wouldn’t solve our problem with the healthcare legislation, but it made me laugh…
mistersnrub
Speaking of no shame, here is a tea partier throwing dollar bills in the face of a man with Parkinson’s disease!
http://gawker.com/5495880/tea-partiers-know-the-founders-didnt-intend-for-anyone-to-be-nice-to-sick-people
wmd
@John S.:
Don’t hold your breath, engage with them – help them to realize their voting power.
Gen X dropped the ball the boomers handed them with 18 year olds getting the frachise. Which led to the cynicism and Reagan conservatism that has caused so many problems. Time for the ball to be picked up and moved by the Millennials, and we can help coach and cheerlead this generation to great things.
Or not.
I gave up cynicism sometime in the 90s. We really do have to be the change we believe in. Permanently burning out isn’t an option.
batgirl
@Martin: Haven’t you heard that according to Glenn Beck “democratic” is now a bad word? No reason to use sociaIism anymore:
WTF?!
John S.
@wmd:
You’re right, and I have been trying with some success. I guess if anything it has been easier to convince the Millennials I work with that they have a voice and should use it than to convince some of my fellow Gen-X friends of how batshit insane their conservative views are.
So it’s a mixed bag.
R. Johnston
@wmd: Nope. The Public Citizen suit involved some Democratic congresscritters as amici, not as parties, and since the amicus brief doesn’t seem to be available online, nor is it referred to in the decision, and there were multiple issues in the case, there’s no telling what those congresscritters were actually arguing.
http://openjurist.org/486/f3d/1342/public-citizen-v-united-states-district-court-for-the-district-of-columbia
wmd
@John S.:
The demographics favor Millennials leading us out of this mess.
I’m on the cusp between boom and Gen X (don’t remember Kennedy assassination, do remember Neil Armstrong). I see my son and his friends have the energy and drive to improve the world. They need my generation to not succumb to cynicism, to remember our ideals and help guide solutions.
wmd
@R. Johnston:
Thanks for the correction. The reporting I’ve seen said their Amicus brief supported “deem and pass is unconstitutional”. I don’t have any further evidence, just what I’ve read (ie Ezra). Which could just be received Village wisdom.
drillfork
As long as there’s one Republican in the Senate (or JoeLie), corporate Dems will have the cover they need.
And you folks will keep cheering them on…
Toast
A-fucking-men.
mcc
Er, wait.
mcc
@Randy P: If you are talking about the public citizen case as far as I know that had nothing to do with deem and pass, or self executing rules. Reading the documents I find online by searching for the case name I find the complaint referred to whether a particular law was valid even though the House and Senate never passed the same version technically due to a clerks’ error during conference (“12” mistyped for “36”). I have seen people claiming this has something to do with self executing rules but have yet to see it explained what.
(Am I missing something? Ornstein says the republicans “defended deem and pass in court” but he doesn’t mention public citizen and even if he did I’d want a cite before trusting an AEI blogger.)
The important takeaway from that case if anything seems to be that if the presiding officers in the legislature rule something is valid, no matter how fishy, courts will not touch it or even consider the merits of the arguments against it.
RareSanity
@wmd:
You must be a baby boomer or close to it.
Only a boomer could make a statement as ridiculous as this.
Do you care to expound on this revelation that Gen X “dropped the ball”? Gen X is half the size of the Baby Boomers, can’t make a difference unless they move out of the way like their parents did.
Restrung
silly libruls still thinking that truth matters–
Take a look at Virginia’s shiny new governor. You run to the center and win, then it’s hell’s bells and pearly gates and If You’re Not With Us, You’re a fucking traitor. New reality.
They learned it from George W Bush, I guess. The shit works. And it ficking scares me.
wmd
@RareSanity:
Voting participation of Gen X has been lower relative to Boomers, Silents and GIs. Not just in terms of raw numbers, but also per capita.
Panurge
What is this “move out of the way” business? Why should anyone? When will GenX?