Just for kicks, I listened to a few minutes of El Rushbo yesterday. His first call after a long tirade about how “no legislation is permanent in DC” was from a serious young dittohead who asked how, exactly, repeal was going to work if Obama still has a veto and Republicans don’t have a veto-proof majority. I really don’t think the guy was trolling: he was expecting Rush to have an answer.
Rush blathered on for a few minutes on that one, saying that a real revolution could occur and get veto-proof Republican majorities in the House and Senate. But even he seemed to admit that was magical thinking. Of course, left unsaid was the fact that getting a veto-proof majority in the Senate is impossible, and entitlements like Social Security and Medicare have not been, and will never be, repealed.
I really think that it’s hard to understate how stupid and ineffective the “repeal the bill” strategy will be as an election message. I still think Democrats are going to lose some seats this Fall, but jobs and the economy will do the work, not the horseshit that the de-facto leader of the GOP is trotting out.
geg6
I read this morning at TPM that the even the Chamber of Commerce has told them they would not be financing any sort of repeal effort.
When you’ve lost the Chamber…
tyrese
they’ll keep pushing for repeal. Because the people they’re talking to are so dumb they don’t understand repeal is impossible. when you’re talking to the stupidest people on the planet, who cares about the truth?
dmsilev
There’s a pretty strong correlation between a President’s approval rating and the number of seats that his party gains/loses in the midterm election. I put this graph together before the 2006 midterms (and then updated it later with the 06 results). Since changing the House control would need a shift of something like 70 seats right now (ie the GOP winning 35 seats, and the Democrats losing the same 35), we’re talking sub-Nixonian levels to make that happen.
And that’s just *control* of the House. Veto-proof majorities are simply impossible.
-dms
Some Guy
Agreed re: what will costs Dems seats. However, if the unemployment picture improves at all and small business tax credits for health insurance actually pay out like they say, you might well see some Dems in more iffy districts run stronger than expected.
And one must never discount GOP implosionicity. Tea party challengers from the right may cost Republicans some pickups.
As much as progressives are not satisfied with this bill, rightwing extremists are making themselves even more unpopular. “Repeal the bill” won’t just be an issue, it will be a symbol of Teabag extremism. GOPers who cling to that will be signalling their loyalty to radicalism and that may well temper the losses Dems will suffer.
Napoleon
I strongly encourage the Republicans to follow this election strategy. The Republicans pursued short-term political goals that so completely destroy their long-term prospects for years really is catching up to them. They are so completely cementing in the electorates mind (at least those under 60) that they are such a bunch of spittle spewing extremist that it will take 20 years to undo the damage.
Personally I think the Dems are going to fair far better this fall then most expect.
SiubhanDuinne
Great title and post, mistermix, but please go back and fix the spelling: it’s -freude, not -fruede! Thanks, and in case I haven’t said previously, welcome aboard as a BJ front-pager.
Zifnab
I don’t think that should be “left unsaid”. At the height of the Bush Administration, Republicans had some very real plans to privatize social security. That would completely rewrite the legislation in a way not entirely apart from killing it.
And lest we forget, two of the major cost cutting measures in the HCR Bill were reigning in prescription drug spending (although it failed to go all the way and allow Medicare to openly haggle prices) and ending Medicare Advantage. Those were major milestones in the Republican Drown It In The Bathtube strategy. Had HCR not passed, we’d be looking at backbreaking deficits in the years to come. I think, in many ways, this bill was as much about preserving Medicare and Medicaid as it was expanding coverage to the millions of uninsured.
jibeaux
Ah, yes, repeal the bill. I believe a wise person here yesterday was picturing the ads with a diabetic child who now can get insulin interspersed with the oompa-loompa saying “hell no you can’t.”
My husband caught a few minutes of Rush yesterday too. He said he claimed Obama didn’t campaign on health care reform before he was elected.
You know, if I could find doors to alternate realities like these people can, I’m sure I would open them sometimes too. But they would lead to places that are cool, not places that suck.
dr. bloor
They won’t push repeal, they’ll run on improving the bill with the same package of highly efficient, free-market mechanisms that worked so well for us during the reign of King Shrub.
cleek
it’s fun to think they’re doing that. but if the MSM isn’t telling anyone about these incidents, how is the public supposed to learn about it ?
danimal
Last year, most pundits were expecting that this would be a good year for Dems.
Last month, the GOP was poised to win the majority of both houses.
Consistently, Obama has shown the best sense of political timing I’ve seen in a politician.
We’ll see what November brings.
SiubhanDuinne
Damn, I always forget that using a couple of hyphens will do that. Ignore the unintended strikeouts.
It’s freude, not fruede (is what I was trying to say).
SpotWeld
Here’s the thing.
The economy, while perhaps not markedly declining is still at a low point . It seems that we’re still due for a few dips before returning to any sort of steady upwards trend. (And I know I’m being all hand-wavy here.)
So that means there will be some serious churn as people lose jobs and new jobs are (slowly) created.
While all that’s happening a lot of people will become painfully aware of how tentative health care is when you are unemployed (if not though direct experience, though the experince of friends and relatives.)
I don’t know what the final result will be, but there will be a lot of people angry at the administration for the bad economy (rightly or wrongly, that’s just how opinion goes) but I wonder if that will be mitigated by the people who suddenly relaize how much worse it could be if Health Care Reform hadn’t been passed.
(Of course this leads right into the arguments about what will be kicking in, in the short term vs. the long term.)
The most obvious plan of GOP attack will be to flow down to the teabaggers that HCR “does nothing and costs too much” despite all evidence to the contrary. It has the nice bonus of not requiring the GOP to do anything but complain loudly. (And not read anything)
SiubhanDuinne
Damn, I always forget that using a couple of hyphens will do that. Ignore the unintended strikeouts. FYWP.
It’s freude, not fruede (is what I was trying to say).
SpotWeld
Wondermark (webcomic) sums it up nicely.
LarsThorwald
Well, when you have idiots like Michael Steele go on National Television and affirm that the health care bill will lead, no shit, to “apocalypse,” you realize the Republican ‘Just Say No” strategy is very short-sighted. It paints them into a corner, because you have nowhere to go from “No.” If your strategy is to have every Republican — every single Republican — vote no, then you have to demonize the thing you are voting no to pretty badly. It has to lead to all sorts of evils, up to and including the apocalypse. you have crazy shit like Kristol, mad as heck, predicting that the bill will be repealed by 2013. That’s insanity.
And then when the apocalypse or whatever doesn’t happen, well then you can paint them as wrong on policy, wrong on politics, wrong for America.
Assuming you have Democrats ready and willing to pound pound pound them on it. After Bunning got away with it, I’m not so sure.
we need David Plouffe to help plan the fall campaign. That man don’t take shit from no one.
Bill Rutherford, Princeton Admissions
Even if the Dems only lose one House seat, the CW will be that the public was revolting against the health care bill. Look at the gloating on the right after Scott Brown’s victory. They thought it was a complete repudiation of Obama’s entire platform.
mr. whipple
Yup. There’s nothing left but crazy. I think it’ll be tougher for the GOP to make serious gains this fall than most. Like the last election, you have to have some sellable ideas, and they got nothing but rage, spittle, and the same discredited solutions.
The rage is effective in low turnout midterms if the other party isn’t motivated, but the success of passing HCR is just another step toward keeping the Dem base happy. They just might show up more than recent polls would indicate.
Brian J
Here’s the thing: repeal would probably be possible, if not likely–if it turned out to be even half the disaster the Republicans are claiming. But if it’s even half as good as many Democrats think it will be, it’s there for good. I’m not sure what would be harder–repealing specific provisions, or the entire thing–but I know it won’t be easy either way.
@LarsThorwald:
Yes, they absolutely painted themselves into the corner. This doesn’t mean they will never be able to win power again. It just means they added a pretty big weight to themselves, however temporarily, and now have to figure out a way to get it off. The only solution, I think, might just be time. For the first few cycles, Democrats will be able to say that this passed without any Republican votes, quite correctly, and that’s a hard thing to respond to.
L Boom
@Napoleon: I’d tend to agree with this. Anecdote does not equal data, of course, but I had an interesting phone call with my mother last night. Both my parents are very conservative Fox news watchers who’ve more or less trusted what they hear from the more professional, truthier-sounding newsmodels on Fox.
But they’ve finally hit the point where they feel like they’re getting so much misinformation and just general crap from the network that they want me (their liberal son who they’ve argued politics with for decades) to dig up as much good info as I can find and send it to them. They’re slowly moving from “you can’t trust any media but Fox because it’s fair and balanced” to “you can’t trust any media”. Not really ideal but at least it’s some movement in the right direction, and I know they’re not the only ones.
Speaking of which, has anyone found a clear, concise summary of the changes that’ll kick in once the reconciliation bill passes? I’ve found some good stuff at the Kaiser Family Foundation site, but it’s a bit too wonky on some topics.
Svensker
@SpotWeld:
I love Wondermark.
Bill E Pilgrim
Then there’s this, Yglesias in this case but others have pointed this out also:
So a total of 52% are either in favor of the bill or wanted it stronger.
This is the poll that a lot of right wingers are quoting when claiming that “The Americans don’t like this bill”, which means that their willful misinterpretation of this and similar polls has once again blinded them to reality.
If 52% of people polled are in favor of health care reform equal to or stronger than this bill, then running on a platform of repealing it is not just evil, it’s insane.
That’s the danger with using pure spin to bamboozle people, you start to believe it yourself.
Even the Democrats saying “People will come around once they see the details” is wrong. They already are around.
gbear
Why should that even begin to stop the republicans. Michelle Bachmann is like a reverse black hole. Her mind is so dense that no light can penetrate into it.
Brian J
In There Can Never Be Too Much Megan McArdle Refuting News, here are a couple of links devoted to debunking her Derbyshire-Lite “DEMOCRACY IS ENDING” rant. As Henry Farrell says:
EconWatcher
I’ve been convinced (and ranting) for quite a while that Obama was foolish not to pursue aggressive financial reform before tackling HCR. My thinking was, he could have built political capital by going after the banksters. Then he could have used the momentum to go after HCR.
But now, coming off a tough win on HCR, it looks like Obama could put Republicans in the unpleasant position of defending Wall Street against aggressive reform right before the mid-terms. Then the Dem posture for the mid-terms could be, “We’re the guys who told insurers not to cut you off if you have a preexisting condition. They’re the guys defending unlimited bonuses for investment bankers. Got it?”
Plus, Obama may have thought that aggressive financial reform could not really begin until the economy started to come back (for fear of suppressing lending).
I don’t want to drink the Kool-Aid. But there may be something to the “eleven dimensional chess” theory. I’m quite prepared to eat my hat. We’ll see.
jeffreyw
@SpotWeld: Thanks, dude. I remember spending hours a few years ago going thru the archives there but had forgotten how enjoyable it was. Bookmarked the site in my comics daily read folder.
Xenos
@mr. whipple:
A good fight over financial reform is just what we need right now. Once again, there will be millions of dollars of dishonest tv commercials, lots of hysteria, and then a weak but modestly effective bill getting done. Meanwhile the teabaggers may start to realize the GOP is anti-populist, and you could get a scenario where the Democratic base turns out and the GOP base gets depressed.
geg6
@Bill E Pilgrim:
This. And the GOP bringing out the crazy to eleventy billion isn’t gonna make those numbers move in the direction they think.
r€nato
Actual repeal isn’t the point. “Repeal” another issue to rile up the base, like “restrict/ban abortion” and “ban gay marriage”.
jackie
@L Boom: The New York Times has a pretty good summary, unless those commies are unacceptable to your folks.
mistermix
@SiubhanDuinne: I obviously fell prey to the Internet law that anyone who makes fun of spelling errors (as I did in the previous post) will make an ugly one in the near future. Thanks, I fixed th post.
Napoleon
@cleek:
Huh? Did you watch NBC Evening News last night? I think we have reached a tipping point with this stuff.
DuggleBogey
Just like Iraq. They are “at war” with no exit strategy.
Brian J
@Bill E Pilgrim:
When I asked a work friend where he heard that 70 percent of the country opposed the bill, his response was THEY ARE CALLED POLLS BRIAN.
When I asked him to name which one he was talking about, because as someone who pays attention to this stuff closely I had never seen one he was talking about and thus the onus was on him, he told me that he just didn’t like the bill because he didn’t want to pay for lazy people who didn’t want jobs to get health care.
When I told him that he wasn’t paying for this, because he likely wasn’t getting his money from investment income or something similar (as in, he’s not in the top 5 or top 1 percent), he said he was entitled to his opinion.
When I repeated this, he still said he was entitled to his opinion.
When I said he was entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts, he said “LOOK YOU LOVE IT I DON’T PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE!”
Sunday night, as I was telling a mutual friend what an idiot this guy was acting like, he asked me why I bother. Now, hopefully, I’ve learned not to any longer.
Zifnab
@EconWatcher:
:-p In all fairness, it’s more like “We’re the guys who added a small surcharge for insurance companies to reject you for pre-existing conditions. They’re the guys who we’ve been asking polite person of to slightly increase regulation on a select few banks who have most grievously offended us.”
With Dodd leading the
chargegentle nudge towards financial reform, I’m not above seeing Democrats getting rolled. Again.Napoleon
@L Boom:
Check out Ezra Klein’s site.
Brian J
@L Boom:
Yes. This is by way of Kevin Drum and Brad DeLong. It’s very, very good.
Seanly
Rush isn’t packing his bags to head to Costa Rica? With a side trip to the Dominican Republic for some sex tourism?
EconWatcher
@Zifnab:
I don’t disagree, it could play that way. But a guy can hope. Aren’t we all hopey-changey now?
Andy
I read the other days that Alf Landon ran on the Republican ticket for president in 1936, with repeal of the (then new) Social Security program as a cornerstone of his platform.
How’d that work out, I wonder?
Ailuridae
@L Boom:
Read BrianJ’s link. Politifact did a pretty good piece on misconceptions on the bill as well.
Brian J
@geg6:
The problem is that they’ve experienced the most success with lying through their teeth about what’s in the bill. They will probably continue to make stuff up, because it’s the only thing that’s proven to work even a little bit.
This will probably include attributing anything and everything that’s even slightly irritating to this legislation. Have to wait an additional day to see the doctor? That’s Obama’s fault. Have to fill out additional forms? Damn that Obama big bureaucracy! And so on.
It doesn’t necessarily matter that it won’t be true. If enough people believe it…
Andy
@Brian J:
You should have pressed your friend just a little more, to elicit the classic, “Because. . . because. . . because shut up! That’s why!”
jibeaux
@Brian J:
This is what every conversation with a winger is like, forever and ever, amen. The same basic parameters are always there. Unless and until they learn to rewire their brains to acquire critical thinking skills and logic, the “discussion” is doomed.
cleek
@Napoleon:
god no.
but i did take a look at the NBC website, and i think i saw the segment you’re thinking of. this?
good start. we need about 2 more weeks of this stuff – non-stop, in all media.
i’d be surprised. the GOP is nowhere near ready to stop – they’ve just kicked into an even higher gear. i suspect it’s going to get a lot worse before anything tips. don’t forget, they went for years and years like this, in the 90s. it took McVeigh to knock them back, and the election of W to shut them up.
they’ve got huge reserves of crazy built-up. and they’re not afraid to open the spigots.
batgirl
@L Boom: Here are a couple of good links from Reuters summarizing the bill:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62I4KD20100319
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62H5AK20100319
Brian J
@Andy:
Without getting into too many details, he’s one of the people everybody at work crack jokes about. I do, too, a lot of the time, even though I actually like him. He’s a good guy, even if he is a bit annoying. But part of the problem is that he thinks he’s the center of the world and that he’s always, always right. It doesn’t matter if there’s an easy way to show that he’s wrong, like telling him he doesn’t make that much money (and I don’t know his specific finances, nor do I want to know, but I am sure he’s not making enough money to be hit by these new taxes). He still thinks he’s right.
He’s not a dumb guy, and I do like him as a person, but I am done talking politics with him. It’d probably be better to talk about them with my dog, who would end the conversation with the “Yeah, yeah, that’s good. Where’s my damn Milkbone?” stare.
geg6
@Brian J:
This is exactly what they always do. State some ridiculous “fact.” And then when someone asks them where they got the “fact,” they say everybody knows it’s true. And then when you ask them to point out exactly where so you can read it, it’s all nevermind because I said so.
It’s just like the forced birther I have as an administrative assistant. She is always going off about how abortion should be illegal and how any doctor or nurse who participates in it are murderers. So I ask her, well, what about the pregnant woman? If the doctors and nurses should go to jail for murder, shouldn’t the woman who voluntarily sought out the abortion? And then I get a nasty look and she won’t talk to me for the rest of the day. Which, honestly, suits me just fine.
Ash Can
@Xenos: I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if things turned out exactly as you describe. And I’m already bracing myself for when people on both the right and left start flipping their shit over financial regulations turning America soviet-communist/selling the entire country out to Wall Street. It’ll be deja-vu all over again.
FlipYrWhig
I remember as a kid seeing either film or still photos of white people red-faced with rage about black kids on school buses, and being extremely confused about what the big deal was.
That’s where we’re headed on this. People will look back and say, What the holy fuck was THAT all about? Giving people subsidized health insurance was “the apocalypse,” the fundamental loss of American liberty? It truly makes no sense.
LuciaMia
Did Rush explain why he’s still in the country? I thought he was heading for South America if the bill passed. Bon Voy-a-gee!
FlipYrWhig
@Brian J:
Didn’t the Daily Show have a montage of Fox News’s Megyn Kelly repeatedly using a number like 70 percent, never accompanied by a graphic? One thing that became clear about “the polls” is that the figures that kept being brought up were the lowest, not the most recent, and almost no one in the media–and few politicians–updated their statements accordingly.
Brian J
@jibeaux:
Sadly enough, he’s not really a winger. He voted for Clinton twice, or so he says. Even if he is a conservative, he’s not a true nutcase.
Brian J
@FlipYrWhig:
Oh, well, if Fox News said it… /snark
FlipYrWhig
@LuciaMia: I think he said that if all the stuff that was promised was implemented within 5 years, he’d leave. So unfortunately even if he keeps his promise he’ll be on our hands (ew! gross! get it off!) a long time.
Honus
@Brian J: That’s the republican mentality. they’re entitled to their opinion, they’re entitled to their own “facts” they’re entitled to “their country” even though they’re not the majority and haven’t been for quite some time, and they lost the last two elections by significant majorities. HCR shouldn’t happen because they don’t like, regardless of how large a majority wants it and elected representatives to enact it.
It will be interesting to watch the teabaggers react to financial reform. If they oppose it the same way they did HCR, it will completely undress them. Financial reform is clearly populist; if they defend the bankers, it will be clear that their anger is not based on some weird patriotism or principle, but on the fact that the two most powerful people in the country are a black man and an Italian woman.
SiubhanDuinne
@mistermix #31
Oh hell yes, eye dew that awl the tiem.
(Thanks!)
FlipYrWhig
@Brian J: Fox News has that effect, and I think it’s part of their ethos: they repeat so many fact-esque unattributed unsourced claims that they bore into your mind like a familiar tune and replicate themselves virally as “true.”
Napoleon
@cleek:
I am at work and can’t play your link but I suspect you got it.
Although that is true I think the big difference is that the press now is slowly beginning to realize the Republican Party is not operating like a normal American political party may have in 1980. It has taken forever it seems but when the old editor of the NY Times is writing op-eds for the WaPo wondering why the press does not call out Fox for the political operation they are, and NBC is all but running a story which can be summarized as “did you see how crazy the Republicans are” you finally have some segment of the MSM that is comfortable abandoning the “he said-she said” dynamic that has led to the Republican party being able to be outright extremist yet the press will still treat them seriously.
FlipYrWhig
@Honus:
They’re just going to say it’s another “takeover.” I have grave doubts that any teabagger has any notion of what he wants to see _done_ to the big banks they occasionally demonize. Because their real complaint IMHO was “Don’t bail them out with MY TAX MONEY!” Banks were the superficial cause of the complaint, but the government was the underlying cause.
L Boom
Excellent, great stuff here. Thanks, all. :)
FMguru
The other problem with pointing to the polls is that last week was probably the low-water mark for HCR’s popularity. It had undergone a year’s worth of deceptive attacks by the right, the sausage-making process had gone on forever, and in the most unpleasant way possible (with lots of corrupt-looking special deals), Democrats looked feckless and incompetent, and liberals were on the verge of walking away from the bill as being compromised to the point of worthlessness. But now it’s a done deal, all the process stuff will disappear from public consciousness, liberals will come home (they already have, for the most part), Obama and the Dems look like winners, and the focus will shift to what the bill actually does (bans recission, keeps kids on parent’s insurance through age 26, etc.) rather than the crazy things the Republicans said it would do (death panels, mandatory abortions for all, fascism, etc.).
The poll numbers for HCR are only going to go up. Republican beliefs that people will become increasingly critical of the bill now that it’s passed and people are learning what’s REALLY in it are simply ridiculous – a year of sceaming about death panels didn’t sink this bill or break public opinion, so why would it start working now?
The GOP, instead of realizing the battle is over and moving on to the next thing, is going to refight this – in an environment where it will be getting more popular and the likelihood of repealing the bill is effectively nil. They gambled heavily on stopping HCR completely, lost that bet, and are now doubling down on repeal. I think they’re going to lose that bet, too.
Seven years ago public opinion was split something like 43-43 on the decision to invade Iraq. Where was all this concern about the majority opinion of the American people then?
ericblair
@FlipYrWhig: I remember as a kid seeing either film or still photos of white people red-faced with rage about black kids on school buses, and being extremely confused about what the big deal was.
I think you pretty much summed it up. When we’re old farts, I doubt we’ll have much to be embarrassed about in our political lives. For all the caterwauling the wingers make about freedom, they sure do get upset when people actually get some.
cleek
@Napoleon:
i hope you’re right.
Tommy
Uh oh, this could be a problem:
McCain: Don’t expect GOP cooperation on legislation for the rest of this year
HA!
Violet
I listened to Rush off and on yesterday. Great entertainment. Honestly, I’ve never heard him sound so down. And then he was seriously pissed off. It was really fun to listen to.
rachel
@LarsThorwald: Now, now. Bloody Bill ‘s prediction sets my mind at ease; he’s never right about anything.
jibeaux
@Brian J:
Well, you know, it’s one of those things where no winger is capable of critical thinking, but not all people incapable of critical thinking are wingers. I think there’s a name for that, but I can’t recall it.
Violet
@Napoleon:
I so hope you are right. It’s obvious to anyone with a brain that this sort of thing is happening, is systematically being encouraged by the GOP and rightwing institutions. And it’s terrible for our country. I’m all for free speech, but encouraging hate speech and encouraging nutjobs to commit acts of violence is unconscionable. These people should be ashamed.
catclub
SiubhanDuinne @ 57
It is spelled thyme.
Xecky Gilchrist
@Napoleon: the press now is slowly beginning to realize the Republican Party is not operating like a normal American political party may have in 1980.
Cynic that I am, I’d say that from time to time the press is unable to hide how much that is true. But the press knows very well who signs their paychecks.
Ash Can
Guys, C-SPAN and other channels are broadcasting the HCR signing right now.
mandarama
I’ve had this song in my head all day, and found a fun YouTube mashup that made it even more joyful. Ahhhh, “Schadenfreude.”
bemused
@Brian J:
We probably all know people who no way in hell will ever make enough money to worry about new taxes but who are totally convinced that one day they will if they just stick with the republicans. As one faithful believer said, ” But I might some day”.
They typically are also some of the biggest buyers of lottery tickets & casino junkies.
mandarama
@Ash Can:
Can you just tell how keyed up everyone is?! Very joyful. And Joe Biden is embarrassing the POTUS with praise, heh.
PaulW
He’s signing it with 150 pens, one pen for each brushstroke. Doesn’t he realize how SOCIALIST THAT IS?! A TRUE AMERICAN SIGNS WITH ONE PEN DAMMIT! JUST ONE PEN! FREE OUR CALLIGRAPHY!
sputnikgayle
I deliver eggs to several of our rural neighbors once a week and we seldom discuss things beyond our farms’ common borders–predators, drainage, fencing problems, etc. We are all busy people and we enjoy the utility of these brief agenda-setting visits. We often save each other trips into town (15 miles away!) by doing this.
However, I had to engage the lone wingnut among them this morning to correct his certainty that he would now have to buy health insurance for his part-time farmworker/mechanic, his sole employee. He was pretty colorful in this assertion and I was extremely respectful (and knowledgable, if I do say so myself!) in my response.
He then told me that I was a fool to believe that this wasn’t the case and that everyone he listened to on the radio and the television said he was correct. I did tell him that I was very offended that he called me a fool based on something he heard on television and radio and that I thought our good neighborly relations required more trust than that. He really backed off, apologized, and said he’d call the guy who does his taxes to find out. Sheesh. I just want to go back to talking about compost with him.
FlipYrWhig
@sputnikgayle: I think a lot of people will be very relieved when they come to realize how few of the things they’ve worried about will actually come to pass. Your neighbor is probably among them.
He sounds pretty good at slinging it!
Randy P
@mandarama: I can’t do Youtube at work, but the song that goes with this word for me is “Copenhagen” from the musical “Hans Christian Anderson”. I loved that musical as a kid and every song in it is stuck in my head for life.
Wonderful, wonderful Schadenfreude…
Felonious Wench
@Brian J:
This is why I haven’t given up on talking, talking, talking to people who are still getting their news from Fox and their ideology from Rush. Maybe they will never support the bill, and that’s OK, but under the weight of evidence that they’re being lied to, they may get enough to be more critical of the source.
Call me a blind idealist, but even if one person listens, it’s worth it. And it’s been more than 1. Some are completely hopeless, but not all.
Zifnab
@EconWatcher: :-p I guess so.
I don’t know. The fact that health care passed at all was a relief. But when I see another massive backlash winding up and actually look through what we got, I can’t help being disappointed.
Felonious Wench
@FlipYrWhig:
Husband’s students are already there. He teaches government to high school seniors, he went over the bill with them, and they’re all asking what the big deal is. Why are people flipping out over death panels and socialized medicine?
They really don’t get the angst. “Stupid” is the general analysis.
jibeaux
@sputnikgayle:
Who is, chances are, someone who works in a strip mall with a guy standing outside in a Statue of Liberty costume waving down cars. I understand maybe some people don’t have access to teh google easily, but I dunno, public television or radio? Schools really need to spend 5 minutes or so teaching kids how to be discriminating about their sources of information. I mean, I am one naive person, if someone is telling me a personal story it pretty much never occurs to me to think that they might be lying. (Well, except when they’re trying to get money and the story involves the exact car part they need to replace, which they are carrying, and how they are just in town because they were asked to speak at such-a-such a church.) But I am skeptical that media sources will have bias, and I look for facts first. Opinions about those facts can be helpful, but the facts need to be nailed down first. Do we not teach this kind of thing anymore, or is our wingnuts just not learning?
Dr. Loveless
@Brian J:
“A Party member is required to have not only the right opinions, but the right instincts. … The first and simplest stage in the discipline, which can be taught even to young children, is called, in Newspeak, crimestop. Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity.”
jibeaux
@Felonious Wench:
Well, that’s good news. Hopefully they can talk to their parents about it. The bad news is that younger people seem in general to be more sane.
Dr. Loveless
@Violet:
I’m guessing he’s heard, “So when’s your flight leaving for Costa Rica?” approximately eleventy billion times by now.
Chuck Butcher
@Dr. Loveless:
Oh, he’ll just say he can’t abandon the Real Americans and the Good Fight.
Leelee for Obama
That sounds like the birth-control method I used years ago. Did I mention I have two kids, not three or more?
The Populist
@Felonious Wench:
Your husband is a good man. I hope more teachers do the same. This generation could be the ones that finally tell their tea bag loving parents to STFU about race and to also tell them to calm the hell down.
Leelee for Obama
@The Populist: Well, I can tell you my GrandKids are definitely more likely to think their elders have lost their shit if they behave like that. The middle Granddaughter, who’s 7, once told her parents they had to stay calm when they’re angry at her teachers, or they’d get a Red Card. Laughed my ass off, I did.
My oldest Granddaughter vets her potential friends by watching how they behave towards fellow students who are different from them. If she thinks they aren’t sufficiently empathetic, she’ll just cut them dead. It’s amazing to watch them, really.
Elie
@mistermix:
Also wanted to belatedly welcome you as a front pager to B-J.
Elie
@Leelee for Obama:
LOL — protective stupidity — yeah — we all used it!