I’m betting almost the entire WaPo op-ed page is going to stage a synchronized fainting session tomorrow:
Fresh from raising taxes on upper-income Americans to help expand health insurance coverage, President Obama and Democratic lawmakers are targeting them again.
When Congress takes up Obama’s proposed $3.8 trillion budget this year, it will include extending President George W. Bush’s tax cuts for middle-income families enacted in 2001 and 2003. Tax cuts for individuals with income above $200,000 and couples above $250,000 would be eliminated.
The effective tax increase on the upper income would yield about $41 billion next year and $969 billion over the next decade, according to the Treasury Department. The White House says that would help reduce the $1.5 trillion budget deficit.
The horror of it all.
dr. bloor
But did they figure in the impact of all those upper income folks going Galt on us?
Comrade Dread
Why stop there?
Republicans like to venerate the 50’s as a time when America was a moral paragon of good virtues. As an olive branch to their ideals, let’s roll the tax rates back to 90%.
Violet
I really wish Obama would say, “If these tax rates were good enough for Reagan and Eisenhower, they’re good enough for me.”
Bulworth
Awesome.
Ryan
Such a disingenuous argument. Those making above the threshold will only have their marginal rate increased, they keep the same tax cuts on income below $200k as everyone else.
R-Jud
I suggested this a while back to a winger relative. The expression on his face was priceless.
dmsilev
Oh, the humanity.
Let me channel the GOP for a second: “Soshalism! Tax and spend liberals! Class warfare! Polly want a cracker, brackkk!”
dms
comrade scott's agenda of rage
Let the “raise taxes” framing begin!
Assholes.
some other guy
@Ryan:
This.
handy
“upper income” what a nice euphemism.
Our news media is run by a bunch of weasels.
neill
Holy fucking shit!
This is REALLY gonna piss off those tea party idiots, living off medicare, and less than two grand a month social security.
If you go after those making $200K a year, soon you’ll be coming after the cat food eaters…
That’s how it worked in Germany and the USS-fucking-R!
Dick Armey’ll tell you. Palin’ll tell you. The Newtster…
toujoursdan
@Comrade Dread:
AMEN
L Boom
How about Obama says those lapsed tax cuts pay for the unemployment benefits Coburn currently has on hold and we call it a day?
Oh, I know: sockalism, class warfare, etc. etc. etc.
Gregory
That’s an “effective tax increase” voted for by Republicans and signed into law by Republican President Bush.
Sure, the sunset clause was just a pretense to mollify a few remaining deficit hawks before the GOP borrow-and-spend orgy truly began, and the GOP had no real intention of letting them expire, but the fact remains that expiration was something they did.
Not acting to extend taxes that the Republicans voted to sunset is hardly the Democrats raising taxes. If only the Democrats had the sense to emphasize that point.
debbie
@dmsilev
Alexandra Penney will never be able to afford another crisp, white shirt again!
artem1s
how will they ever afford the upkeep on their fainting couches?
Napoleon
Followed the very next day by an op-ed on how the Federal Government needs to cut the deficit.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Allow me to translate the Rethuglican Call to Arms:
You there! If you and your grubby little friends organize a protest against this dreadful threat to my bank account there will be a nice shiny dime for you. [And they have their fingers crossed about the dime.]
Joel
Jonah Goldberg is taking a stand against tyranny!
Zifnab
@Ryan: Tell the guy making $500k a year that he gets to keep the 25% rate on his first $75k and he’ll laugh at you.
Of course, I honestly don’t care about the general income brackets nearly as much as I care about the capital gains rates. That even under the “higher” taxes, you’re paying 20% on capital gains rather than whatever tax bracket you are actually in is outrageous.
That earned income is taxed more heavily than investment income continues to widen the income gap between the haves and have-nots.
JScott
I see that I am not the only one old enough to remember that in the Good Old Days when the American economy was a juggernaut & the envy of the planet the tax rates ran up to 90% (that was on unearned income on the well rich).
Craig
“Tax cuts for individuals with income above $200,000 and couples above $250,000 would be eliminated.”
Incidentally, this statement is a damned lie. Individuals making above $200,000 will KEEP their tax cuts on the first $200,000 of income. Only the two-hundred-thousand-and-first dollar of taxable income starts being taxed at a higher rate.
I can’t wait to hear the editorial page again expound on how many Americans paid “no tax” this year–if you ignore Social Security and Medicare taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, et cetera, et cetera. But somehow, only the Federal Income Tax ever counts as “taxes” to this lying filth.
Roger Moore
It’s hard to see how it wouldn’t. Of course, when put in a position where their stated dislike for taxes conflicts with their stated dislike for deficits, we know how the “Conservatives” will decide. They’ll go for low taxes and high deficits.
Mnemosyne
@Craig:
You know, they keep trying to tell me that I don’t pay any federal income tax because I make less than $50,000 a year, but they can’t explain why it fucking says FEDERAL INCOME TAX WITHHELD on my fucking W-2 every goddamned year when I do my taxes. I tell them that and they just look at me like a dimwitted dog who doesn’t understand why he’s getting yelled at for pooping on the carpet.
Rick Massimo
@Roger Moore: “The White House says.”
“The White House says” that $969 billion in new revenues would help close the budget deficit.
But that’s just an opinion! And we’re not into opinions here! Don’t want to get too crazy!
But “effective tax increase”? Well, that’s just a stone cold fact. The fact that it’s a Republican talking point? Coincidence!
Gawd, what a bunch of tools.
Comrade javafascist
@Joel: By which you mean he’s continuing to sit on his fat ass talking about stuff he doesn’t understand in the least. Goucher College must rue the day it decided to admit men.
Comrade javafascist
Oh, and sign me up as a supporter of the 100%
Estate TaxDeath TaxGOP Young Eagle Club tax.Sue
Any word on if they’re going after the companies that aren’t paying any taxes? That might bring in a buck or two.
forbes.com/2010/04/01/ge-exxon-walmart-business-washington-corporate-taxes.html
Khârn the Betrayer
You fools! You blew it all up! 2010 is the year McMegan is provoked into raining fire down upon all our heads!
SFTST/BFTBG
freelancer
Cole, you need a graphic to go with this post.
punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/political-pictures-teabaggers-work-ethic.jpg
You’re welcome.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
Y’know, we just did our taxes.
Gross household income was in the low to mid-100s.
Our effective income tax rate was 6% for the Feds, and 3% for the State of Cali-worst-governed-state-fornia. Property tax is about 3% of income.
I’m fucking undertaxed. I’d gladly fork over an extra 10% of income if it stopped our teachers getting laid off and a decent healthcare system.
trollhattan
That does it. I’m getting a Big Fat Raise so I can be in the bracket that enables me to scream about our Kenyan-in-Chief raisin’ my taxes. Also too, Barbara Boxer wants to take away my big screen.
Thank you
Roger Moore
@Mnemosyne:
Obviously, your problem is that you aren’t an average American family. The average American family that earns what you do doesn’t pay any income tax, so you must be doing something wrong. My guess is that your family doesn’t have enough cute little tax deductions, so you need to get breeding if you want to catch up.
Brian J
If this were a saner country, we’d strike a deal where the income tax cuts could stay in place but replace the revenue with ending loopholes and other, possibly smaller taxes on emissions and stock transactions. If Republicans were at all interested in making a deal, I’d bet large sums of money that the White House would jump at the chance, provided the overall sum of money was actually going to make a difference. But that’s not the world we live in, sadly.
Instead, we live in world where Exxon Mobil pays a grand total of zero dollars in income taxes in 2009 to the U.S. Government while receiving billions in subsidies. Call me when the Teabaggers start complaining about that.
DMD
Every WSJ columnist, media personality, and supply side politician needs to be asked what is the median income for an adult in the U.S. whenever they whine about raising takes for those over $100k or $200k or whatever, or talk about the estate tax.
The answer of course is $39.4k for men, $26.5k for women, and $46k for households. Our politicians and media types really are a bunch of rich people yelling at each other.
The Moar You Know
@Zifnab: And until that changes, the destruction of the middle class will continue apace, with their full consent.
A bare 50% of the nation has anything invested in the markets. Most of those, who for technical reasons we’ll refer to as “suckers”, have those investments in low-yield 401k funds, which essentially serves as Monopoly play money and insurance backstop funds for those who are the real movers and shakers – that 5% of Americans who own 90% of the wealth.
Until we start taxing capital gains at the same rate as earned income (and ideally at a far higher rate, as it is income paid to folks who don’t produce anything at all) the conversion of the middle class to de facto slaves will continue.
Brian J
@Gregory:
Oooooo, I like that. It’s so blindingly obvious and simple, yet upon first thought, I didn’t even consider it. That’s pretty much the exact line of defense the White House should use.
Cris
Instead of grumbling about “paying more than their share,” why can’t the rich learn to be proud of their role shouldering the burden? It’s like being dad of the country.
Bulworth
Speaking of taxes, I just filed mine, and darned if I’m not getting a pretty good-sized refund. Again. But Tax Day is somehow supposed to be bad. Not sure what percent of workers actually end up owing the IRS money on April 15, but it can’t include people like me who get their fat mortgage-interest deductions, along with their charity and other write-offs. Hell, I get to deduct my state taxes. What a life.
ChrisNBama
I hate it when Obama keeps his campaign promises.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Brian J:
Haahaahaa heehee hoo boy that was a good one, thanks, I needed the laugh.
What were you saying again?
4tehlulz
It’s shit like this that forces the Heritage Foundation to admit that America has less economic freedom than Canada.
Keith
What’s next? A tax on backgammon boards and polo mallets?
Cris
I had no idea about the Making Work Pay tax credit. If I hadn’t gone through a professional tax preparer, I’m sure I would have missed it.
Brian J
@Bulworth:
What state do you live in?
I can’t particularly complain about having to pay a decent amount in income taxes to New York State, since I made more money last year than I ever did before, but I’m starting to wonder if I should have paid someone to do my taxes instead of using Free File through H&R Block. I keep hearing about people who are like me (don’t have dependents, don’t own a home, and so on) who get so much more back. Unless it’s a matter of withholding, I am probably losing out.
Morbo
Hey, the amount I have to pay on my high deductible HSA only went up 65 cents. Of course if I was still on traditional it would’ve gone up %16. Not bad compared to some I’ve seen-and compared to the 90% it went up last year. Hence my move.
geg6
@freelancer:
OT, but “Lost” was awesome last night, huh?
I find Desmond yummy.
scav
Upper Crust? Mmmmm, thinking, thinking, thinking . . . Breadcrumbs! Or, how ’bout sandwiches? (seriously. don’t miss the sandwich).
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Keith:
I’m thinking a tax on champagne magnums served at bondage themed strip clubs. Remember that the power to tax is the power to destroy!
Brian J
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
If you had read all of what I wrote, you’d see how the Republicans were going to nominate someone like Gerald Ford in 2012 and, in a responsible move, cast aside the Teabaggers. They’d embrace true bipartisanship. They’d make serious moves on climate change, tax reform at all levels, privacy issues, cutting defense spending, and the like
\sarcasm
Bulworth
@Brian J: Well, the mortgage interest deduction, combined with the property tax write-off, is a pretty big one.
licensed to kill time
O frabjous day! Caloo! Callay! Reply arrow is back!
Oh, and I am weeping tiny tiny tears at the thought that people who make a fuckton of money will have to pay a bit more in taxes. Microdot tiny.
Gregory
@Brian J: Sadly, the Democrats haven’t seemed to have considered it either, though it has the advantage of being absolutely true.
toujoursdan
@4tehlulz:
Freer and richer. The Canadian dollar (Loonie) is passing the U.S. dollar in value and Canada has the strongest recovery in the G-7.
CBC: Parity regained: What a strong dollar might mean for you
Toronto Star: Canada ‘enthusiastic rebound’ best in G7, OECD says
Suck on that enemies of Soviet Canuckistan and communist healthcare. Prepare to be invaded by hordes of border crossers seeking bargains south of the border.
flukebucket
I just wish like hell I was one of the guys who is going to see a tax increase.
eemom
I like this new peekaboo reply button.
Brian J
@Bulworth:
That’s my point. I can see why someone who pays a mortgage and gets to use the deduction would fare differently than me, but not people who are like me–who don’t have dependents, for instance.
El Cid
@Ryan: There are no such things as marginal tax rates.
Once you make a million dollars, the IRS agents raid your home and take everything and sell your wife to Hugo Chavez and make you live in a barrel. It’s true. I heard it on the radio.
geg6
On topic, I found out the other day that I pay thousands of dollars more in income tax than Exxon does. I pay a 25% rate plus $4675. I have taxable income of less than $40,000.
How is this possible? I mean, really, how is this possible?
Granted, I’m not married and have no children. I was told for years to buy a home, but on less than $40,000 a year, there is no way for me to pay for one. Not if I wish to have electricity and heat, that is.
So how is this possible? How can this country hold up if this is how it goes, if the richest of the rich pay nothing and I pay thousands and thousands that I can barely afford?
I’d really love to see how McMegan rationalizes my predicament. I’m sure it will all be about how I’m not worthy in some way. Probably it would be some version of it’s my commie, working class family’s fault for sending me to college and grad school and expecting more out of my hard work than getting fucked up the ass by Masters of the Universe like her.
jenniebee
@dr. bloor: If they did go Galt, it occurs to me that we would be able to get rid of a hell of a lot of regulation and inspections, since they’re the primary offenders when it comes to fucking people over for profit.
Ash Can
Allowing the tax cuts on the wealthy to expire will obviously destroy the American way of life, turn our children gay, and force all us women to wear burkas. (I’d like a purple one with gold trim, plz.)
Sentient Puddle
@geg6: I’m not freelancer, but I agree. Finally starting to get a hint of what these flash-sideways are supposed to be. That and Desmond is just an all-around awesome character.
Violet
@geg6:
She’d tell you that tax cuts would help you be able to buy a house. And the Republican Party really cares about people like you.
Brian J
@geg6:
Shut up, that’s how!
Ash Can
@toujoursdan: Oh, don’t believe a word of any of that, you silly
rabbitlibrul. Sozialistic overregulation killed off Canada ages ago. There’s nothing north of the US now but pine trees and suburbs of Detroit.Alex S.
Use Occam’s Razor: Is there anything that suggests that the Republicans actually want to reduce the deficit? No, the easiest answer is that they want to collapse the government (to drown it in a bathtub).
Zifnab
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
Is that why cigarettes don’t exist anymore?
Digital Amish
Yesterday I googled historic tax rates. The era that I recall as the greatest boost of standard of living for the U.S. (late 40’s through the early 80’s) had top marginal tax rates between 90 and 70 percent. I’m waiting for the next yahoo to tell me that 35 percent tax rate is stifling economic growth.
geg6
Completely OT, but I found this interesting:
firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/04/07/2259778.aspx
catclub
@Gregory:
The sunset clause was there because it was rammed down our throats under satanic reconciliation rules.
Oh, there was no rammin’ down the throats then?
jenniebee
@The Moar You Know:
A bare 50% of the nation has anything invested in the markets. Most of those, who for technical reasons we’ll refer to as “suckers”, have those investments in low-yield 401k funds
Hey – I resemble that remark!
I’ve thought for ages that the best thing going would be a local small business stock exchange – some place where people like me, who don’t particularly want to send money to Wall Street, could instead buy $1000 in shares in getting somebody’s plumbing company off the ground, or in opening an art-house theater, or things like that. Very small, local businesses only. I have no idea how to start such a thing up, or how to manage it, but it would be lovely if some enterprising young MBA out there would create one.
geg6
@Sentient Puddle:
Ha! We were on a thread last night freaking out during the show. I’m loving Lost this season. If only every great tv show went out like this! Love, love, love it.
Bob In Pacifica
How about if you haven’t made $200,000 in your lifetime?
RSA
@Gregory:
Exactly! This was a Republican plan from start to finish. It’s not the Democrats’ fault that they’re following the Republican plan, despite wishful thinking among the rich about having the hands of future Congresses. Tough shit.
Digital Amish
@Comrade Dread:
After reading the thread I see you said more concisely than I.
geg6
@jenniebee:
I like how you think and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Seriously, I’d drain that piece of shit 401K in a minute to do a local investment option.
Ed Drone
@Comrade Dread:
I clicked on “Comments” to say just that, and find I was beaten to it by hours. It seems like such common sense to me!
Ed
Bill Section 147
The WaPo Editor’s are the comic strip wives who tell their husbands, I just save you $500 on this mink stole.”
…effective tax increase on the wealthy…
And Reagan taxed the hell out of the wealthy compared to George Washington – and he was a founding father and the direct spiritual forefather of Glenn Beck!
Remember that top 400 richest are only paying about 16% on their millions now thanks to the “I make money without working by investing in China” capital gains tax.
And again that is only those that actually cannot hide their income in their business expenses and overseas banks.
I think I will go look for a good book about the French Revolution…one of the ones where the people are the heroes and the King is the bad guy. Tea Bags have nothing on Head Baskets. I am not advocating violence, rather legal trials with predictable outcomes. Mob violence is too messy.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Hey it’s all good, because Greenspan was right 70 percent of the time.
Next up, Mr. Andrea Mitchell mulls over whether he should spend his retirement by taking up skydiving as a hobby, or operating a nuclear power plant. With a track record like that, I vote for skydiving.
mclaren
If Demos keep this up, they might have a chance in the November elections. Now, how about a 20% VAT tax for anyone who spends more than $1,000,000 per year…?
Zifnab
@jenniebee: I think it’s called your local bank. Admittedly, the interest rates are shit. :-p
Zifnab
@Bill Section 147: Don’t forget companies like Exxon and GE that spent $16 and $28 billion in taxes, respectively… just not to this country.
Gregory
@RSA:
To be sure, the Republican plan had some fool notion of a “permanent Republican majority,” so I’m sure their plan called for extending the tax cuts, deficits be damned, but the bottom line remains that it’s George W. Bush’s signature on the sunset clauses, not Obama’s.
geg6
@Zifnab:
Well, there are all those places where you can do micro-investing in things like women in Peru who make purses. I’ve done that once or twice, $20 a pop and gotten every penny back with a little extra (very little, but still). It changes the lives of these people, their families, their villages and towns. Why don’t we have something like that for local small business people here in America? I’d prefer to invest in that than in Exxon or GE through a fund I’m forced to participate in but have no control over.
Soprano2
@Mnemosyne:
There’s a commenter on our local newspaper site who said that if you get a refund you don’t pay any income taxes. When I pointed out that this isn’t true, since hubby & I didn’t get back nearly as much as we paid in last year, he completely ignored that and said that he wasn’t talking about FICA, so if I got money back it must be due to the EIC. Oh, and the only people who pay income taxes pay them quarterly, according to him. I once again (politely, so as not to violate their posting guidelines) told him that he was full of shit, because I never mentioned FICA or the EIC, which we don’t qualify for. This must be a talking point on right-wing radio and TV shows that’s been repeated over and over again – that’s the only explanation I have for it.
bemused
I was just reading the Forbes piece on what the top US corps pay (or don’t pay) in taxes. At the end the question is raised ‘would no more tax holidays for corps really help Mr & Mrs Taxpayer’. No surprise, according to Scott Hodge, prez of the Tax Foundation, it’s doubtful. He says taxpayers should be in favor of lower corp taxes because we are paying them anyway, as workers getting lower wages & fewer jobs, or as consumers paying higher prices or as retirees getting lower dividends & earnings on their investments.
Gah!
El Cid
Pity the poor 400.
catclub
@Soprano2: @ 85
Wow, they really have absorbed the ‘only the rich count’
message! Especially that – ‘you only matter if you pay quarterly taxes’. Another example of talking in a language that huge numbers of their fellow citizens do not understand.
jenniebee
@Zifnab: No, that’s me depositing with them and them loaning money out at interest, not necessarily to local businesses, and without me choosing what I think is a good idea and what isn’t. I’m talking about an exchange where local, I think it’s S-type corporations, could find investors, with one of those investors being the exchange itself. I could invest in the exchange fund, or I could buy shares in individual businesses. It would be a way to get local, small businesses in touch with local, small investors.
Brian J
@bemused:
Lower corporate taxes wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing if companies actually paid them. (The success of any tax reform is supposedly broadening the base, lowering the rates, and closing loopholes.) I’m not a tax lawyer nor an accountant, but my impression is that while the tax rate is high, not many companies pay it. Instead, they engage in a series of schemes and tricks to avoid paying the taxes, spending money that isn’t really socially useful. That’s why Obama seemed open to corporate tax reform: he wants to end the counterproductive system we have now.
Violet
@geg6:
A few years ago there was something like this, but they got shut down by the SEC. I can’t remember what it was called – there were two of them, that I remember hearing about, actually. I read about them in the WSJ. It was a way for, say, the person that wanted to open a flower shop to get some money. And a way for the average person to help and be involved in something outside of big companies.
I thought it was great, but the SEC shut it down.
John
I’m someone who will get hit hard in the pocketbook by changes in the marginal tax rates. I live in NYC and here, $200,000 is not rich–I certainly can’t afford to buy an apartment and luxury goods, and I haven’t had a real vacation in years. In short, I’m forced to have a reasonably frugal lifestyle, at least compared to the rest of the country.
That said, I would greatly prefer that they keep rates as they are now, and raise additional taxes through closing the million and one loopholes the wealthy exploit to pay little or no income tax. That and close the loopholes for major corporations.
geg6
@Violet:
Here’s a link for the one I have put money into from time to time:
kiva.org/
I do not see why this couldn’t work on a slightly larger scale in this country. I simply don’t.
Alien-Radio
@geg6:
for you and Jennibee.
try peer to peer finance.
webank.org.uk/?page_id=2
geg6
@John:
Well, I’m sorry if I’m not properly sympathetic, but I think if I can pay 25% + $4600 on less than $40,000 a year, I think you’ll probably survive.
asiangrrlMN
@jenniebee: I think this is a wonderful idea. It’ll never work, therefore. I think my head is going to explode from all the bullshit talking points of the right that have successfully permeated the traditional media. I watched Maddow’s section on ACORN last night, and it really bothered me that a completely fabricated video (the raw footage has been released)
All this bullshit is spread and believed by people who willfully don’t want to see differently. We can talk about better coverage or what anyone can say or do, but I still maintain that there is a sizable portion of the population who does not want to be educated on the issues.
By the way, Nancy SMASH! was on my MPR over the noon hour, and she was great. However, I wish she could have clearly stated that the Republicans were the problem, but I know that’s not politic for her to say. She did say, however, that the healthcare debate came down to whether you were for the American people or for the insurance companies. I haz a happy that I got to hear her.
ETA: Sorry, the link goes to Maddow’s show and not the link directly. I think all you bright people can figure out the right clip to watch.
Violet
@geg6:
I think there is some microfinance lending happening here. I heard the guy who started the Grameen Bank, Muhammad Yunus, speak a few years ago and he spoke of starting microlending in the US. And I think Kiva.org works with some US organizations.
What I liked about these other organizations was that they weren’t specifically tied to working with the very poor and there weren’t educational requirements, etc. It was just people that couldn’t get loans – tons of small businesses can’t in this environment – and if you wanted to invest in them, you could work with them via this online tool. It was pretty cool. Tons of people had signed up, so of course the SEC had to shut it down because they couldn’t allow that sort of thing to happen.
mai naem
If Americans fall for this shit then they are even dumber than I thought. Also too, I wonder if these stories aren’t appearing because these same people are the ones who do make more than $250K. Fuck ’em. The extra money if probably the equivalent of what they spend on looking pretty and going out to eat.
Joseph Nobles
@Digital Amish:
Yes, but imagine that period without those onerous tax rates! We’d have our Jetsons flying cars already! /wingnut.
WereBear
It sucks that the SEC shut it down, but I can imagine why:
Basically, there’s a metric ton of people who are paying 29% interest on their credit cards, and suffering.
And there’s another metric ton of people who are getting 1% on their savings accounts, and suffering.
If only there was a way these two bunches of people could meet in the middle at 10%, and make them ALL happy.
Uh huh.
bemused
@Brian J:
Exactly what the Forbes piece pointed out. Nice little thing they have going there. Wish I could work my finances that way.
Nylund
Do you mean to tell me that some of the temporary tax cuts that Bush and the GOP promised would expire so that they wouldn’t blow up the national debt might actually expire?
So now we have to witness a huge freakout because Obama is actually going to hold Bush and the GOP to their word and do what they promised they would do?!
scav
@Nylund: Du-uh. :)
Blue Raven
@John:
You aren’t being frugal by my standards, I’d bet. I shop at the dented-can stores. I figure out how to enjoy eggs as dinner. If I could handle the carbs, I’d be eating ramen and beans & rice. You’re middle class, John. I can’t sympathize. Period.
Nick
Last week, our local Fox affilate here in New York did a story on the idea in the state legislature to raise the rates at Bethpage golf course from $50 to $75. They were outraged OUTRAGED! by it…literally saying it would “hurt hard working New Yorkers in the pocketbooks”
They had some dude on who said “the low income families who are barely getting by will be hurt by this”
by raising rates at an exclusive golf course. You can’t make this shit up if you tried.
The best argument the Republicans have against tax hikes on the rich is trying to convince people that those tax hikes will hurt them when they won’t…and their media friends are helping. Now it’ll cost more if you wanted to go golfing at Bethpage, not that you ever would, but if you ever wanted to. Liberals are crushing your dreams (that will never be achieved because of conservatives).
some other guy
If you make $250,000 in 2010 your top marginal rate will be 33% and your effective tax rate will be around 27% (about $68,000).
Once the Bush tax cuts expire in 2010 your top marginal rate will be 36% and your effective tax rate will rise to 28% (around $70,000).
And that assumes the brackets are the same. The 28% bracket currently ends at $171,000. Obama has proposed raising that bracket to $200,000 which would lower your tax burden even more since you’d have an additional $29,000 of income taxed at the 28% rate instead of 36%.
See this page for more info.
Nick
@John:
My parents make a combined salary of over $270,000 and live high on the hog in their upper class outer borough neighborhood. Head outside of Manhattan, $200,000 is more than enough to live on.
YellowJournalism
@asiangrrlMN:
I watched that last night and started getting what can only be described as “emotional” over the whole situation and the fact that you will NEVER see a true retraction from any of the news networks, programs, or pundits who used the video, especially those like Beck and Hannity that continue to thrive from the supposed conspiracy of Acorn being a corrupt organization involved in helping prostitutes and helping people smuggle children across the border.
I explained the situation to my husband, and it got me thinking of all the jobs lost by Acorn workers and affiliates, not to mention the valuable resources and services it helped provide to those who are not able or do not know how to access them.
jenniebee
@asiangrrlMN: I think we on the left can unfortunately get as hung up on the idea that first step in doing anything is that we have to get absolutely everybody in agreement with us as the Tea Partiers or SoCons do. I think this is something that all it takes is one person who knows what (s)he’s doing to try making a living doing it, and who cares if the masses think it’s stupid?
Shit shit shit, now I gotta figure out a way to afford to quit my job, go back to school, learn how to do this, and do it. Goddamn it, I just figured out how to do this job well, and I really like it too.
PurpleGirl
John — May I suggest that you should contemplate how to live in NYC on something like $24,000 a year. Lots of people live on that or less.
El Cid
@YellowJournalism:
What’s really awful is that the conservatives targeted ACORN for exactly what it is they do, because they hate, despise, loathe anyone trying to help poor communities and communities of color.
What’s really, really awful is that the major billion dollar news media were more than happy to collude in the propaganda attack against such an organization and so did elected officials and Democrats, and none of them gave the slightest momentary shit that they were attacking the only major national organization doing actual organizing and fighting for the homeless, for poor area financial services, and voting rights.
They didn’t care.
Oh, but don’t you dare suggest going after going after particular banks or bankers or investors.
Those are important people, after all, and you better not go off half-cocked on them.
jenniebee
@John: The rest of the country isn’t getting real vacations either. Our cost of housing may be lower outside of Manhattan, but clothes cost the same everywhere, transportation costs for a 45 minute commute from the suburbs are considerably more than a monthly subway pass (even more so when you count in the car payment), vacations may actually cost less for you because it costs less to fly out of JFK or La Guardia than it does out of a satellite airport. When I was in NYC last fall, what really struck me was that so many of your beautiful restaurants with delicious, fresh food were actually at the same price point as my local Red Lobster. Compare the prices on Rosa Mexicano at Lincoln Center‘s menu to The Tobacco Company here in Richmond – we don’t pay less for the good life out here, our good life just isn’t as trendy as yours.
Yes, you have higher housing costs. You still come out ahead, you just don’t realize it.
Nick
@PurpleGirl: As a matter of fact, most people do.
I know someone who has been complaining about proposals to tax the rich, they bitch that’s its still difficult for someone making $250,000+ to raise a family in New York City and then point out that most of the ones complaining live in duplex apartments on the Upper East Side or Along the Hudson River.
Well of course it’s difficult to raise a family on $250,000 a year if you choose to live like a millionaire…but you live like someone who makes $250,000, you can live just fine.
David in NY
@John:
Poor John:
My handy “how much house can I afford” calculator suggests that you can afford (adopting the conservative number), an apartment costing about $750,000 (if you’ve got the downpayment, somewhat less if you haven’t bothered to save anything).
There are some very, very nice two-bedrooms in Brooklyn for that.
David in NY
Also, why is New York City full of rich whiners?
FormerSwingVoter
Remember back when the top marginal tax rate was 50% and above? You know, back during the Reagan administration?
Nick
@David in NY: Hell, you can buy a whole McMansion in Howard Beach, Whitestone, Bayside or Bellerose, Queens, County Club, Bronx or Mill Basin, Brooklyn…all very exclusive neighborhoods.
David in NY
@Nick:
Sure, but I expected that John would be more interested in the Slope or Heights. But since I also suspect he may also be a liar, who knows?
MarkJ
I love that the block quote says “the White house says” this revenue would reduce the deficit. It’s a matter of mathematics – more tax revenue reduces the deficit, there is no “says” about it. Just another piece of evidence that all facts are fungible for “journalists” – even addition and subtraction.
Garrigus Carraig
@toujoursdan: This is good news for the Blue Jays.
BruceFromOhio
@Herbal Infusion Bagger:
I tried to explain to my conservative bro-in-law the concept of ‘civilization’: fire departments that respond when you call 911, kindly state troopers that scrape up what’s left after you cannonball-run the newly paved Interstate, sewage treatment plants that keep the e.coli from infecting everything that walks, breathes or drinks water. All fine and dandy.
Assessing taxes to pay for it? Heh heh heh. Yeah, right. The poor slob has a fucking stroke about welfare queens.
thatguy
@jenniebee:
here’s a new startup coming aiming to do exactly that
profounder.com/info.html
AC in BC
Why not? These are the same rich who were “targeted” with the biggest tax windfall in history under Bush.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
“I’m talking about an exchange where local, I think it’s S-type corporations, could find investors, with one of those investors being the exchange itself.”
S-corps have a 75-investor limit, as well as other restrictions, so I don’t think an exchange for S-corp would work
Having said that, it’s not a bad idea, but I’d suspect the overhead costs would chew up a lot of the return on equity. In the SF Bay Area, there are syndicates of Angel investors for pre-VC startups, but that’s sizable shekels to be able to run in those circles.
How about banking with a community bank or credit union?
babagordon
As much as you think 250,000 is a lot of income, most of the people earning it are wage-earners. Lose the job, lose income.
The real gimmick behind this is the ceiling of tax rates set at $373,650.
To see what that gimmick is, see the graph here.
mybudget360.com/how-much-does-the-average-american-make-breaking-down-the-us-household-income-number…
That shows the meaning of rich.
Bracketing those who earn $250K (about 6 times the median of $46 K median) with those who earn $1.6 million (35 times median)?
What you see is millionaire CEO’s and non-wage earners hiding behind the skirt of common senior professionals (wage-earners) like accountants, programmers, nurses etc. Most of these are double-earner families who effectively end up paying more than 50% in taxes (70K Fed, 20-22K state, 17 K payroll) and in childcare (10-20K)
This is not taxing those who earn that 1.6 million on average. The rich pay 20% on their investment income and live on expense accounts.
This is taxing two sets of people – those who are senior enough to earn higher wages, and those who are professional wage earners living in cities.
The rich don’t have to pay taxes. That is why you wont see a
50%40% bracket on income above $1 million. Nor would you see a 35% tax on capital gains. Those 1.6 million earners pay less than 20%Sure these 250K earning families are better off – but it is ludicrous to term this as taxing the rich.
The 2009 income numbers are here. taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html
The average income for a tax return in this top 0.1 percent is $7.4 million, while the average amount of income tax paid is $1.6 million
A tax rate of less than 22%.
This raising taxes on couples making more than 250K is taxing the rich.
Yeah, right.
Mnemosyne
@John:
You do realize that you make more than the median income in the highest-income area of NYC, right?
Nick
@babagordon:
yes, and like everyone else, you would no longer be taxed and would get to collect unemployment, what’s the problem?
If you make six times the median income, you’re rich, the end. Now if you want to talk about changing the tax law to get millionaires and billionaires to pay their fair share, then I’m all ears.