Just so you know the things I do for you, I’ve been reading every post on “The Corner” on my RSS reader for the past few weeks. Mostly they’re a disappointing mixture of stupid and insipid. Sometimes, they’re just strange (e.g. this exchange about roofies). Today I read the first one I really liked:
I started to read Mark Levin’s massive bestseller Liberty and Tyranny a number of months ago as debate swirled around it. I wasn’t expecting a PhD thesis (and in fact had hoped to write a post supporting the book as a well-reasoned case for certain principles that upset academics just because it didn’t employ a bunch of pseudo-intellectual tropes). But when I waded into the first couple of chapters, I found that — while I had a lot of sympathy for many of its basic points — it seemed to all but ignore the most obvious counter-arguments that could be raised to any of its assertions. This sounds to me like a pretty good plain English meaning of epistemic closure. The problem with this, of course, is that unwillingness to confront the strongest evidence or arguments contrary to our own beliefs normally means we fail to learn quickly, and therefore persist in correctable error.
I’m not expert on many topics the book addresses, so I flipped to its treatment of a subject that I’ve spent some time studying — global warming — in order to see how it treated a controversy in which I’m at least familiar with the various viewpoints and some of the technical detail.
It was awful. It was so bad that it was like the proverbial clock that chimes 13 times — not only is it obviously wrong, but it is so wrong that it leads you to question every other piece of information it has ever provided.
Update. And the inevitable Fruming begins in earnest. Also too.
Comrade Tank Hueco
Shouldn’t this have a “I Read These Morons So You Don’t Have To” tag?
/nitpicky
beltane
Epistemic closure is the new black.
Crashman
You are a brave man, DougJ. Thank you for your sacrifice.
DougJ
Yeah, but I didn’t want to tar the guy (Jim Manzi) who wrote this piece with that.
SpotWeld
Why didn’t more people have this reaction when the GOP put up Palin as the VP nominee?
ThatPirateGuy
They did, didn’t you see our margin in 2008?
licensed to kill time
This sentence from the post most likely describes the whole book:
Not that I have read it. Mark Levin, sheesh. His voice alone qualifies him for the lowest circle of Hell.
MoeLarryAndJesus
The moronic Andy McCarthy has already posted a pathetic non-response where he cries about Manzi’s unfriendly tone. Identifying obvious wingnuttery as wingnuttery makes widdle Andy feel sad. I suppose that’s because he’s as wingnutty as they come himself.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
Treason!, blasphemy!, un-wingnut!!. Mr. Manzi better give his soul to Frum, cause his ass belongs to Limbaugh.
I mean Wingnuts confronting contrary arguments. Saddle up the RINO posse.
licensed to kill time
@licensed to kill time:
Not that I have read Levin’s book, I mean. The post was good. BJ server went down or something and I was unable to edit.
Fencedude
Doug, the link at the end of the post is busted.
erlking
Methinks brother Manzi will be Frum’ed out of the corps soon.
EconWatcher
OT, but I have a question, and I’m curious what folks here think:
Is it possible that, within the constraints of his caucus, Bob Corker is actually a decent guy who is trying to do what’s right for the country? Stop snorting and jeering and hear me out.
Yes, he signed on to McConnell’s silly letter. But while avoiding open confrontation with McConnell, Corker’s public statements seemed to make it pretty clear that he would not partake in any prolonged obstruction.
And I think he actually came pretty close to publicly chiding the leader of his caucus for using hyperbolic and inaccurate language in describing the financial reform bill–which takes some cojones for a freshman, particularly in a caucus not known for its tolerance of independent thought and action.
Reading between the lines, it appeared to me that part of the reason McConnell buckled was that Corker looked ready to go off the reservation.
Also, Corker just co-sponsored a resolution honoring Benjamin Hooks. Sure, you can call it hypocritical window-dressing. But real wingnuts don’t even try to dress their windows. And it seemed like possibly his way of subtly responding to the Confederate History stuff from his teammates.
Maybe someone from Tennessee can disabuse me with videotapes of him killing puppies. But just from the evidence of the last several weeks, he seems to be showing signs of being a real human being. No?
jl
@Fencedude: Yes, is busted, so we don’t know what ‘inevitable Fruming’ means.
Is the poor NRO author is being Frummed at this very instant, or that you expect the Fruming to begin?
Or that there is, gasp, self-Fruming behavior?
SiubhanDuinne
We don’t seem to have had an Open Thread since about 10:00 o’clock last night, so the hell with it, I’ll just go O/T (right . . . like that’s anything new and different for me).
Earlier today I received the following WaPo alert:
——————–
I am perplexed by their use of the word “scandalized” as an adjective to describe Massa. The way I’ve always used it, we the people are scandalized (or maybe not) at Massa’s behavior, but it seems really odd to describe the perpetrator (ETA: alleged!) this way. Am I just being way too picky and anal? Yeah, probably.
licensed to kill time
@jl: It was the Frumious Bandersnatch.
Mark S.
@MoeLarryAndJesus:
K-Lo jumps in too, not with anything substantive, of course (“I found Jim’s tone deeply disappointing”).
This could get pretty entertaining.
LuciaMia
That seems to be the current RW response. Don’t address whatever point they’re making. Just complain how they’re being so, so meeeean to us.
The desperate search for martyrdom is becoming ridiculous.
Mark S.
@SiubhanDuinne:
At least they didn’t say “snorkelized.”
max hats
This is great. KJL’s post is especially hilarious – echoes of “never has an argument been made with such seriousness and care”
gogol's wife
@SiubhanDuinne:
No, you’re absolutely right. This is right up there with the NYTimes obituary that said that while alive the deceased lady was always superbly quaffed.
The Moar You Know
@EconWatcher: No, because the “constraints of his caucus” don’t allow doing anything that would be good or right for the country. The only allowable action is to obstruct, obstruct, and obstruct some more.
I’m not engaging in hyperbole. One look at Corker’s record is enough; he will vote how he is told, period.
buckyblue
My guess is he’ll be gang-Frummed.
El Cid
The Little Frumer Boy?
MoeLarryAndJesus
“Especially at a time when Liberty actually is endangered and Mark Levin is not to blame.”
Why do they keep her around? Is she the only one willing to give Victor Davis Handjob his daily spongebath?
jl
Is this author Mark Levin the, IMHO, crazy radio hate-monger Mark Levin?
(IMHO added to spare B-J any exposure to liability.)
Corker is far better than THAT Mark Levin. I’ll go that far.
carol
I could never get the Corner’s RSS feed to work.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@EconWatcher: It’s all relative on Planet Wingnut. When you have slipped the surly bonds of rationality, or any concern whatsoever for the country, and have been only, and I do mean Only, concerned with your own personal electoral agenda with the single tactic of denying dems and Obama any passed bills (legislative victories), then even a smidgeon of cooperation seems tectonic.
So in the current environment, Corker comes off looking like an “ok” repub, but he is still a southern wingnut to the core. And I think there are other wingers who are getting worried that Mcconnell’s scorched earth strategy will have some considerable blowback if the GOP gets painted as complete obstinate asses, and even borderline seditious, by stopping all and everything the senate and therefore the government and Obama do.
Martin
@EconWatcher:
Deep down, I suspect most of the GOP in Congress are decent folks. There are exceptions, of course. The problem seems to be that they are uninformed and overly dependent on too few non-decent folks to guide their policy decisions. By comparison, Democrats are generally uninformed and overly dependent on too many decent folks to guide their policy decisions. I think included in there is an axiom that any good strategist is by definition non-decent.
Roll that all up and you have the current state of politics in America.
licensed to kill time
@El Cid:
Come, they scold me
frum frum frum frum frum
Julia Grey
@SiubhanDuinne:
I am perplexed by their use of the word “scandalized” as an adjective to describe Massa. The way I’ve always used it, we the people are scandalized (or maybe not) at Massa’s behavior, but it seems really odd to describe the perpetrator (ETA: alleged!) this way. Am I just being way too picky and anal?
No. They used the word incorrectly. Unless Massa was scandalized by the behavior of his unknown alternated personality.
robertdsc
He’s harshly anti-union.
ajr22
OT: I just saw the video of morning Joe giving Joan Walsh shit for saying there was no Beck and Rush on the left. Mika Brzezinski should have got punched right in her face by Joan. What the hell was with that attitude, name names or shut up. Don’t act like someone is being an idiot regarding this issue, and then hide when asked why. If it is so bad to compare someone to Rush on national TV, then clearly they are not like Rush.
robertdsc
My blockquoted tidbit is from here:
UE Union.
demkat620
What Liberty being endangered is K-Lo talking about?
Maude
@jl:
Yup. Sounds like he talks with a clothespin on his nose.
binzinerator
@beltane:
Epistemic closure is the new
blackmoran.Fix’t.
Julia Grey
@Julia Grey:
ALTERNATE, not “alternated,” dammit.
jl
In the first ‘Frumming’ link, McCarthy asks ‘Why pick Mark for the Pearl Harbor treatment?’
What does ‘Pearl Harbor treatment’ mean? Levin did not realize his book would ever be reviewed? Or what?
freelancer
@demkat620:
That would be the freedom to talk like an insular maroon without any sort of criticism.
You know, what the founding fathers fought for.
Culture of Truth
Mark Levin, wrong??
That is truly shocking.
grape_crush
And K-Lo’s joined in the Manzi-bashing as well:
Of course, K-lo misses the point; after having read Levin’s book, Manzi can’t take it seriously;
Levin, et al are hucksters and opportunists, peddling their snake oil on Fox News and their radio shows…which are the equivalent of the Home Shopping Network and infomercials.
someguy
Ah, Jim Manzi. A thoughtful conservative.
When he’s not being barking ratfuck insane, which is the other 99.99999% of the time.
But seriously, I have a lot of common ground with many conservatives – at least in those rare moments of sentience when they are pointing out that other conservatives are utterly batshit. At all other times I find I have nothing in common with them whatsoever, except for the fact that we probably share some of the same genetic material.
Then again, I could say the same thing about fruitflies.
freelancer
Not to toot the ole horn, but I wrote about this “epistemic closure” thingy over the weekend, and used a couple different voices to illustrate the crippling difference between the parties. Levin vs. Bacevich, and the meaning of “fringe” on both sides.
El Cid
@licensed to kill time:
Little Reaganite, pa frum frum frum frum
I’m still on the Neo-Con right, pa frum frum frum frum
But that’s not sufficiently mean, pa frum frum frum frum
Now we must prove ourselves to the Palin Queen,
Frum frum frum frum, frum frum frum frum,
God are We Dumb.
Funkhauser
Bob Corker, IIRC, has the check-cashing shops as major donors. If you want to judge him by the friends he keeps, he’s not that great of a guy.
nwithers
Hm. Frumming isn’t in the lexicon. anyone want to come up with a definition?
Violet
From that Andy McCarthy link in the post, about Levin:
Model of civility? Seriously? Has Andy McCarthy ever listened to Levin on the radio? I’ve heard him on Hannity’s program several times and he always comes across as mean-spirited and having a massive grudge against anyone who doesn’t agree with him. Model of something, but it ain’t civility.
El Cid
@grape_crush:
The point is that you’re not supposed to look at the book to figure out whether or not it’s a valuable effort by Levin.
Looking in the book and, like, reading the words, and then, like, thinking about them — these are the ways of Satanists and libruls.
Mark Levin wrote it, I believe it, and that’s all they is to it.
Citizen Alan
@EconWatcher:
Bob Corker was easily the most moderate of the three Republican candidates for Bill Frist’s Senate seat in 2006. He narrowly beat Harold Ford, Jr. (who was running as a conservative Democrat) primarily because of some of the most shockingly racist campaign ads I’ve seen in my adult lifetime. One played “jungle drum” music when showing Ford’s picture and patriotic music when showing Corker’s. Another infamously included a slutty-looking blond white girl who talked about meeting Ford at a party at the Playboy Mansion and asked Ford to “call me.” To his credit, Corker at least had the decency to seem embarrassed over those ads (which were put on by the RNC and not by his own campaign) and his complaints led to them being pulled fairly quickly.
My impression is that he’s very conservative, but not noticeably insane or overtly racist. That probably puts him in the top 5% of Republicans in my book. He’s up for reelection in 2012, and yet he has been remarkably open to actual (rather than pretend) bipartisanship. I imagine he’ll get teabagged in two years.
jayackroyd
Heh.
All they have is ad hominem. Content doesn’t matter, at all.
Jim was mean to Markie. Infuriating.
Citizen Alan
@robertdsc:
He’s from Tennessee. Democrats down here are harshly anti-union.
SiubhanDuinne
@Mark S.: LOL
@gogol’s wife: ROFL
@Julia Grey: LMAO
licensed to kill time
@El Cid: Nice! Played with chicken drumsticks for topical flavor.
Martian Buddy
It amused me that K-Lo defended Levin’s screed with the following:
Aren’t we always told that liberals are the ones who are focused on everyone’s fee-fees, rather than logic and evidence?
Stefan
Deep down, I suspect most of the GOP in Congress are decent folks.
When I was younger, I knew lots of older people who had been Nazis in wartime Germany, and then later also had family friends who had been devout Communists in East Germany before the Wall fell. They were all generally nice, decent people. Make of that what you will….
BonneyAnne
@SiubhanDuinne:
when sailing a gaff rigger in a brisk wind (and who doesn’t, nowadays?), you can slow down quickly by dropping the mainsail’s gaff; the mainsail then loses all shape and goes loose and floppy. The technique is called “scandalizing”, and you achieve a) less speed and b) a “scandalized main” (correct use of the adjective, in context).
I imagine the WaPo did not actually mean to imply that type of scandalizing, but I like the image of Eric Massa flopping around all loosely in the breeze nonetheless. Obscurely dirty or something.
someguy
… when they aren’t longing for the days of segregation, slavery, and the wimmin folk knowin’ their place, anyhow.
DBrown
The scientific case for AGW was closed years ago and only a very stupid person would think there are two sides to examin; yes, how best to approch a solution (or none) is open to debate and could be even handed. As soon as anyone attempts to defend an imaginary side of a debate that does not exist – you know they are full of shit just like palin – QED.
Brien Jackson
I love McCarthy’s response, because he just completely proves what Sanchez, Chait, et. al are talking about:
Let’s take this at face value and believe that McCarthy does respect Manzi and finds that he’s normally very civil in his criticisms. Wouldn’t the normal human reaction be to pay even more attention when someone whose opinion you respect and is normally reserved absolutely goes off on someone? But in wingnut world, all that matters is that Manzi is going against dogma, and challenging one of the Big 3 on top of it, so his criticisms can’t even be considered seriously. It’s absolutely unbelievable. Conservative dogma is like AI in the Matrix at this point; it’s totally conquered the movement. No one can challenge it.
gwangung
@DBrown: They’ve done it for DECADES with evolution. Why change a winning plan?
gizmo
Articles like those written by Manzi and Frum are threatening to the conservative mindset because they are examples of rational, independent thinking. The Right has such a huge investment in their Castle of Myth that they get pretty defensive when anyone challenges the orthodoxy.
Capri
@ajr22:
They didn’t say anything in response to Joan Walsh because they believe that Keith O and, to a lesser extent, Big Eddie are the left’s equivalent to Rush and Glenn. They know they can’t say that on the air on MSNBC without getting a stern talking to by their higher ups. So they are left hemming and hawing on air and berating Joan for being crass enough to try to get them in trouble by having to name the names of fellow network employees.
georgia pig
@Citizen Alan: Corker doesn’t appear to be a howling fool like some of his cohorts, but he isn’t Mother Theresa. He probably thinks that McConnell’s strategy may be a long-term loser, especially for him. As you say, it’s Tennessee. His constituents include a lot of gun nuts and birthers. I don’t recall him talking that up, but he’s not going to turn into Dick Durbin. But I sense some of the smarter R’s know demographics are going to bite the current R plan in the ass, and are beginning to think about how to hedge their bets. The financial reform stuff McConnell floated was unadulterated stupid (even Halperin saw that), and that may have been the tipping point for some of the R’s that have been uncomfortable with the leadership’s strategy.
matoko_chan
Please keep in mind that Manzi is in the process of writing his OWN epistemic closure teatard blockbuster called “Keeping America’s Edge”, in which he offers deregulation, recycled supply-side economics, and school vouchers to maintain the Glorious American Exceptionalism that iz Us.
Manzi is an intellectual whore……he is a faux-scientist that puts a gloss of “sciencism” buzzwords on teatard mythologies like creationism and vouchers.
My absolute favorite was when he tried to recycle free market capitalism by saying theory of cooperation as a new social cohesion model would keep the bankstahs from cheating,……all the while studiously ignoring the fact that cooperation benefits only accrue in-group
calipygian
@Capri: Really? Olberman and Shultz have the audience and reach of Limbaugh, Beck, Levin, Hannity, O’Reilly, Savage, etc.?
Seriously?
If you really believe that, you are demented.
EconWatcher
georgia pig: Nobody’s saying that Corker is morphing into Mother Theresa or Dick Durbin. But speaking for myself, I’m just looking for a break in the seemingly unending deluge of venality and stupidity coming from the other side. Corker shows some promising signs.
I’d like to have a sane and decent conservative opposition to the Democrats, to keep them honest and practical. Britain appears to have three sane and decent parties–can’t we have two?
Julia Grey
@matoko_chan:
he is a faux-scientist that puts a gloss of “sciencism” … on teatard mythologies like creationism
So let me get this straight. Manzi supports creationism’s pastiche of non-evidence, yet he can clearly discern non-evidence when he’s discussing global warming?
How is it that this guy’s head doesn’t spin off his neck like a tin top?
SiubhanDuinne
@BonneyAnne:
Now that’s fascinating. Thanks, I’ll have to seek out opportunities to use this in conversation (ideally with someone even more landlubberly than I am, so they won’t be tempted to pin me down on specifics).
And yeah, it offers up a nice mental image of Massa.
matoko_chan
@Julia Grey: My considered hypothesis is that conservatism has become a religion instead of a political philosophy. That is how its congregants can be counter-rational.
Zach
The most amusing part of the to-do over Frum was learning that Jonah Goldberg is a visiting scholar at AEI.
Uloborus
@EconWatcher:
Yeah. It’s sad when we’re pining for the days when Republicans were MERELY assholes.
Citizen Alan
@Stefan:
This. The whole point of the expression “the banality of evil” is that it refers to the fact that perfectly ordinary, otherwise decent human beings will commit monstrous acts of evil if put into a position where society and culture expects them to do so. If you want an image closer to home, imagine a happy turn-of-the-century homemaker baking pies and preparing sandwiches to pack into a picnic basket so the family will have a nice afternoon out watching black folks get lynched.
georgia pig
@EconWatcher: Of course. The thing I was ineptly trying to point out is that it doesn’t matter that much whether he’s a “good guy” — Corker is not dumb and mostly going to be motivated by what he thinks is good for Corker. But as long as the current rigidly ideological base rules the R’s, he’s on a short leash. It helps that he’s not stupid, because it’s hard to negotiate with stupid people, but he doesn’t have that much latitude, and it’s a mistake to think he does. It would be great to have some sane opposition, because then, for example, Obama wouldn’t always have to kowtow to jokers like Lieberman to move stuff through the Senate. Not all interests align along party lines, e.g., there are differences in regional interests that don’t break down neatly along party lines. For example, some R’s don’t really have that much to gain from Wall St., while some D’s are deeply connected to Wall St. What’s mainly going on with Corker now in this financial stuff is that it has an immediate negative impact on his constituency, i.e., teabaggers don’t like bankers any more than liberals. Corker isn’t likely, however, to become all compromise and understanding about healthcare, for example.
Citizen Alan
@EconWatcher:
Yeah, I mean, just compare Corker to Jefferson Beauregard Session III, to name just one example. I could imagine having a civilized meal with Corker if we could avoid talking about politics and religion. I could not, however, imagine myself remaining in the same room with Sessions without succumbing to a moral imperative to tell him I thought he was a disgusting racist monster.
melmoth
I had no idea the nutters were so delicate. It’s not as if this writer put like a Hitler mustache on Levin’s face or anything …
RSA
@Brien Jackson:
I was going to post the same comment from McCarthy. We notice that he completely ignores the substance of Manzi’s complaints about Levin’s book; instead he objects that Manzi is being mean to someone playing for the home team. Truly pathetic.
WereBear
I believe it has. Dogma instead of principles; the inability to allow criticism; relying on faith instead of facts; and a spittle flecked redfaced rage upon being questioned or challenged…
What a devil’s bargain the R’s made with the Evangelicals. Now, they’ve been assimilated.
The Grand Panjandrum
Boo fucking hoo, Andy. And he used to an assistant US Attorney? Holy shit , Batman words fail.
El Cid
@RSA: Because you’re supposed to ignore the substance — all that matters is the tribal identification codes: Are you us, or are you not us?
ondioline
@Citizen Alan: I’d punch that fucker and face the consequences.
Annie
@Violet:
I listen to Levin on the way home after teaching…It’s not easy…Mean-spirited would be a compliment. He is pure evil…Willing to say and do anything to make money. Yells with a lot of drama — to me, he is the worst of the wingnuts. Today’s rant was how the worst administration ever is putting a small soup maker out of business because he uses salt in his soups…Another example of how the Obama — the liar-in-chief — wants to control every aspect of our lives….
And, his second rant was how Obama hosts every socialist on the planet while refusing to meet with the poor and misunderstood Wall Street bankers. According to him, the same bankers that were forced by the Democratic Congress to make bad decisions.
D.N. Nation
Mark Levin = Grown-up Eric Cartman. In voice, demeanor, and weight.
psycholinguist
@EconWatcher: Corker, while mayor of Chattanooga, was actually responsible for some of the “green” developments with water usage, etc. Hurts me to type that by the way.
Steve J.
Manzi’s analysis of “Foamer” Levin’s agit-prop was echoed by Daniel Larison at Eunomia I can’t wait to listen to Mark tonight.
Steve J.
@someguy: I have a lot of common ground with many conservatives – at least in those rare moments of sentience when they are pointing out that other conservatives are utterly batshit.
I consider those rare events as merely run-time errors.
matoko_chan
@WereBear: not just a metaphorical religion……an actual one.
Tea Party Christianity.
the interesting social marker is not political affilitaion……it is religiousity.
Protestant 61% Catholic 22% Jewish 1% Other 5% None 7% dk/na 3%
Do you see a problem?
Where are the mormons who represent 2% of the electorate? Not in the democratic party.
Here is my first revision…christian including mormons and other non-catholic non-protestant christians.
Christian 88% non-christian 12%.
Wish i had access to the cross-tabs….i think % christian is actually much higher.
The survey question should been binary, christian or non-christian.
My hypothesis is for full sample response (no dk/na, which means refusal to answer)…..that 1% jewish and 7% none would hold….the Paulites prolly do have an atheist cohort.
92% christian and 8% non-christian.
And that is TPM SUPPORTERS.
What do you think the %christian is of tea party attendees? how about tea party activists?
If an entire movement is homogeneous on religion…..doesnt that make it a religious movement?
Disclaimer: I apolo in advance for fee fee kerbstomping of resident christians.
matoko_chan
.
well….I originally thought they were all christians but its obvious to me now that they have become Daleks.
exterrrrrminate!
exterrrrrminate!
Liberty60
@WereBear: matoko_chan: conservatism has become a religion instead of a political philosophy
they do have this scary Stalinist cultish sense of paranoia, of constantly beingencircled byenemies, from within by spies and saboteurs, and the relentless hunt for heresy and thoughtcrime.
matoko_chan
They have liturgy, a pantheon, dogma, a guild….all the traditional trappings.
El Cid
Stephanie Miller frequently points out the Levin is only on the air because the stations can only get Sean Vannity if they also agree to take on the Levin deadweight.
Mark S.
@El Cid:
Really? I can believe it. Levin is almost as painful as listening to Savage.
giantslor
LOL at this whole kerfluffle. Manzi is not even disagreeing with Levin’s batshit conclusions — he’s saying that Levin’s batshit conclusions should be backed by better arguments. But even that is sacrilege to the Levin worshipers. I agree that conservatism has become a religion.
frankdawg
Little frummer boy is sure to be a holiday classic in my home for years to come!
Now to get the coffee splatters out of my keyboard . . .