Via BTD at TalkLeft, Joe Lieberman has a novel solution to handling accused terrorists:
Joe Lieberman has a creative solution: Take away their citizenship. “If you’ve joined an enemy of the United States in attacking the United States and trying to kill Americans, I think you should sacrifice your rights of citizenship,” Lieberman, an independent from Connecticut, told reporters Tuesday.
Why stop with accused terrorists? Accused pedophiles and rapists are pretty awful people, too. And people who are accused of mistreating animals. And the people who cut me off in traffic. College kids who jaywalk while wearing earphones (at least the ones Darwin doesn’t get). And old people who wait to start filling out their check at Kroger’s until they have the total (PROTIP OLD PEOPLE: IT WILL STILL BE KROGER’S AND YOUR NAME AND THE DATE WILL BE THE SAME WHEN THEY ARE DONE RINGING YOU UP). And people who have BO on the bus or train.
Actually, I might be serious about the people with BO.
If the media does not get over itself and become acquainted with the Constitution rather than getting the vapors about not having internet on Air Force One or whether or not the President insulted someone, we’re probably looking at GOP star chambers deciding who gets to keep their citizenship in 10-15 years.
Kilkee
Wait. But wouldn’t we have to kind of ASSUME they are guilty in order to take away their citizenship, and…oh, never mind.
Chuck Butcher
For once I’m ahead of BJ
asiangrrlMN
I’m fine as long as we start with Lieberman.
Bnut
So who qualifies as a terrorist? Do you have to bomb someone? Do you have to be associated to a certain degree? Visit internet forums of a brown people flavor? Also, what groups are categorized as terrorists? AQ, IRA, the Catholic Church? There is not a single lawmaker in DC who I want making these kinds of decisions (and that includes the ones I trust in all other things).
BDeevDad
I said it in another thread and I’ll repeat it, as a Jew, Joe should know better. The first thing the Germans did was take away the citizenship of the Jews.
BTW, this is so stupid on it’s face. Are you telling me, the accused wouldn’t get a day in court anyways with all due process to determine if he/she gets to keep their citizenship or do we just take it away on a whim and a prayer? The whole argument lacks logic, but I guess I should not even be surprised.
CynDee
Yes, Joe, that’s real creative and helpful. Wonderful way for a person in the public trust to spend his time. Don’t work too hard on big problems; you might fall over, but I’m sure you’ll still have that sneery smirk on your face that we still have to look at.
THIS IS WHY WE NEED TUNCH AND LILY. Every day.
How about this: take away the citizenship of greedy SOBs who cause lots of harm to the ordinary population, loot the treasury and waste, waste, waste, time, money, human resources, etc.
Thing is, everybody has a idea about whom to exclude. Pretty soon no one will be a citizen. So then what do we got? Nothin’.
Go home, Joey, and take the rest of the loons with you.
schrodinger's cat
John Cole@ top
How is Tunch kitteh, haven’t seen him after his birthday bash. How does he like his new home? Is he all settled in?
Cronin
Yes, clearly the answer here is to revoke the citizenship of anyone accused of something we find reprehensible.
Does that mean we can revoke Dick Cheney’s citizenship on accusations of war crimes? Or Scooter’s?
Warren Terra
Um, not to interfere with your righteous rant or anything, but I don’t get the post title. Despite what a lot of “law’n’order” types seem to think, Constitutional Rights such as the protection against self-incrimination aren’t supposed to be restricted to citizens. In fact, if you search for “citizen” in the Constitution, the only rights obviously restricted to citizens are voting and officeholding.
You knew this, of course, but it bears repeating. And it made the post title incongruous for me.
P.S. It also is in no way clear to me that there’s a distinction for constitutional rights in your dealings with the American government between interactions here in the US and interactions overseas. In other words, so far as I can tell, we’re really supposed to give full Habeas and Miranda rights to people we detain abroad (consistent with the short-term exigencies; I’m not saying this has to happen immediately during a pitched battle). Too many of the comments I’ve been reading defending Miranda for this schmuck who got arrested today seem to make a point of his having been arrested on the ground in the US, which isn’t a distinction whose value is obvious to me.
Linkmeister
People who lose their primaries and run as independents solely because their state doesn’t have a “sore loser” rule should lose their citizenship too.
slag
Don’t forget people who pick up iPhones in bars.
Rosalita
@asiangrrlMN:
one way ticket to Israel anyone?
General Egali Tarian Stuck
Just another form of poll tax. Probly the only tax they support.
Chicken/Egg – We arrest you for being a suspected terrorist. Take away your citizenship so you don’t get a lawyer or trial. Let the CIA hang you upside down nekked over a bucket of your own shit till you confess. Then claim you confessed to committing treason that justifies losing your citizenship we took away. Lizard Brain Law.
Quiddity
Lieberman is unfamiliar with the concept of a person being a “suspect”.
Question for Joe: If you take away their citizenship, does that mean they are no longer a traitor?
matt
GREEN BALLOONS
cokane
it will be Kroger not Kroger’s
fucen tarmal
we should’ve made them think we were at least considering turning dead eye dick and the turd blossom posse over to the u.n. for war crimes prosecution…
opportunity lost to pin them on the issue of removing or renouncing citizenship…
not to mention it would just feel damned good.
beltane
My guess is that they would move from stripping suspected terrorists of citizenship to stripping suspected drug dealers/users of their US citizenship. It would be the perfect synergy between the War on Terror and the War on Drugs.
Between Joe Lieberman, Dunacn Hunter, Jr., and the state of Arizona, it has been a bad week for United States Citizenship as we know it. Is there nothing about this country these people wouldn’t cheapen and destroy?
asiangrrlMN
@Rosalita: Oh, Israel has enough problems without him. I was thinking Somalia just because.
cleek
in other words: all that stuff about due process? it’s irrelevant because the framers got it wrong. we don’t need trials and evidence. we need Lettres des cachet.
what a passel of cowards.
Comrade Kevin
@Warren Terra:
Sarcasm. I assume you are familiar with it.
Bnut
Joe Leiberman is slowing creeping up towards top 3 people I want to punch in face after Osama Bin Lade, GWB, and my father.
KBBoston
As long as we’re taking away rights, why not just seize the property of, oh, I dunno, financial services firms who crashed our economy? To paraphrase a (not-at-all) great American, “I know there is this due process of law thing, but still.”
fucen tarmal
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
sure when you say it that way, but if you do that exact same thing, over time, with some confusing externalities to muddy each feature of the plan, no one will ever put it together.
no one that isn’t a paranoid conspiracy truther or some such….
ellaesther
@asiangrrlMN: Thank you, and bless you, too. Not only does Israel have enough problems, it already has its own fucked up asshole of a Lieberman (Avigdor, the foreign minister! For realz!), so yeah. My other country doesn’t need him, thank you.
Just Some Fuckhead
Maybe we could also strip citizenship from Senators that have dual loyalties to countries that are continually caught spying on us and are otherwise paid handsomely to represent the interests of such countries.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@beltane: The current wingnut mindset is, if we can’t run the thing, then let’s hit it with rocks.
Sometimes, I think this message is subliminally registering with voters the polls are telling us, with that little devil on their shoulder telling them, jeebus, we better vote for these crazy motherfuckers, or no telling what they’ll do.
El Cid
Is everyone forgetting that the right has always hated Miranda?
They’ve always bitched about Miranda — not just for terrorists, but for anybody.
Jeebus Cripes, how many Chuck Norris movies do you have to see to get the world view of right wingers? The people who are arrested are filthy punk crooks who’ve been escaping the long arm of the law, so after a few rounds beating the shit out of them, maybe they’ll be willing to talk.
This isn’t about destroying Miranda for “terrorists” — it’s like everything else for the right: to roll back rights and protections they have always hated using the excuse of terrorism.
This is so not new.
Corner Stone
Isn’t this exactly what was said here at BJ earlier? I thought it was spoof then but who the fuck knows anymore?
Spoof?
Jason in the Peg
@beltane: Is there nothing about this country these people wouldn’t cheapen and destroy?
NO!
Not a good goddamn thing.
Billy K
I totally support killing people who don’t start writing their check until they have the total.
I mean deporting. Or whatever…
fucen tarmal
citizenship, and corporate citizenship could also be tied to where your money is, load up your account in the caymans or wherever, and as far as we are concerned, that is where you are a citizen….
mr. cheney, can i see your green card? papers? anything?
i sure hope you applied to be a citizen where ever you put your money…
rush too, i hope your affection for costa rica is mutual.
SpotWeld
People were wondering why Connecticut was freaking out.
It’s because a significant proportion of the population voted for this guy.
And the remainder is aware of the fact that a lot of people voted for this guy.
Mark S.
In Joe’s world, foreign tourists who get accused of crimes have no rights. That should do wonders for our tourism industry.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
PROTIP OLD PEOPLE: IT WILL STILL BE KROGER’S AND YOUR NAME AND THE DATE WILL BE THE SAME WHEN THEY ARE DONE RINGING YOU UP
Well, it’ll still be Kroger’s.
It surely was extreme of us crazy extremist liberals to want to drive Joe “Guilty Until Proven Innocent Which You Probably Can’t Do Because You Don’t Have The Right To Counsel And Anything You Say Can Be Used Against You And What The Hell If We’ve Stripped Your Citizenship I Guess We Can Torture You Too So Then You’ll Confess And That Proves You’re Guilty So I Was Right All Along” Lieberman out of the party. I think I’m gonna grow up, stop saying “fuck” and listen to David Broder and Tom Friedman.
someguy
@Bnut:
I think you should start with terrorist inciters, Limbaugh, Beck, Palin, Hannity, and go from there.
beltane
@El Cid: That’s an important point. The right’s hatred of Miranda dates from well before anyone thought about the War on Drugs let alone terrorism. This is one of the decisions that define the right’s view of an “activist court”.
Unlike the left, the American right is patient and will scheme for decades until the time is right to hatch their plot. This is just another part of their project to undo all the progressive gains of the mid-twentieth century.
kay
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Oh, no you can’t. From the article:
beltane
@SpotWeld: It was a misunderstanding. I thought you meant the people of Connecticut were freaking out because of the attempted car bomb, not because of your bomb of a senator.
Please continue with the widespread freak out.
El Cid
@beltane: The right isn’t really “patient”, in the sense of waiting. They’re hatching their plots all the time, engaging in huge, nation-scale projects funded by billionaires, with grandiose-sounding aims such as “Defund The Left” or “Roll Back Communism,” and then they get what they want, while the left gets bitched out for being unrealistic and wanting too much change and not knowing the political process enough.
Corner Stone
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: My snark’O’meter…you have broken it.
beltane
@kay: What a brazen SOB this man is. That is just shameless stuff right there.
Corner Stone
@El Cid:
Stop it. Just stop it. Political realities have led some of us to better understand the art of the possible.
Join us. Join us, or die.
kommrade reproductive vigor
In addition to dumping the idea of due process in the toilet, I love that Schmoe’s special fancy solution would specifically exclude many domestic terrorists, i.e. the assholes who blow up abortion clinics.
Stupid fuck.
Mike Kay
it’s a day like today when I want to smash every goddam firebagger and puma in the face for saying, “obama is worst than bush”.
Annie
Just took a shower…From now on, before I write a comment, I am going to take a shower…Don’t want to loose my citizenship…Also, bathed the cats, too. Just in case.
Corner Stone
@fucen tarmal:
Oh, it is. Anyone worth a few hundo million really loves all these places where services and lives are bought more cheaply.
Corner Stone
@Billy K:
Every time someone whips out their checkbook I almost lose my shit in line.
WTF?? I mean really – WTF are you people doing?
I suggest to the commentariat here that check writers are indeed the true suburban terrorists. Anarchists.
rootless_e
if they weren’t guilty, they would not be suspects in the first place – said by Ed Meese who should have known about being guilty.
BR
I’m tired of this.
If this guy wasn’t brown, we wouldn’t have heard a peep from Lieberman or the right wing.
I’m waiting to see them be called out on that, because it seems like flat-out racism to me.
Corner Stone
@Mike Kay: You have real problems. Problems beyond this arena.
Martin
American Catholics have sworn loyalty to a foreign head of state. Clearly they must have their citizenship revoked.
And don’t even get me started on these individuals that make regular pilgrimages to Israel. Are they receiving terrorist training there? I think we better revoke their citizenship before it’s too late!
rootless_e
And our constitutionalist conservatives who know that health insurance reform is not in the constitution, also know that there is nothing in the constitution that says you have a right to not be tortured if you are a terrorist.
The Main Gauche of Mild Reason
Hey, I hate Liberman as much as the next guy, but huffpo says
Which would get around most of the due process concerns. I think it’s pretty reprehensible anyway, but this downgrades it from frothing mouth insane to just insane.
But I could maybe be convinced to go along with it if home-grown militia types/abortion bombers would be subject to this punishment.
Mike Kay
@Corner Stone: damn. now I have to add you to the list.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Corner Stone: He’s like a more literate version of Stuck.
Michael
Shit like Lieberman’s bill makes me want to send a donation to Hezbollah.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@BR:
Scott Roeder
Timothy McVeigh
Terry Nichols
Eric Rudolph
Michael Griffin (the terrorist assassin of a physician whom Joe Scarborough defended pro bono in order to makes his bones with the right wing).
None of them stripped of their citizenship or rights to counsel, trial, etc.
ellaesther
Miranda!
I’ve just fucked a right named Miranda,
And suddenly I know
How wonderful a Constitutional death blow
Can be!
Miranda!
Say it loud and they’ll probably stop talking,
But say it soft and we can send their rights walking….
***
Nope, I got nuthin’. I’ve been trying though! For, like 15 minutes!
Corner Stone
@Mike Kay: It’s like you have one reflex.
PUMA!! Firebagger!!
Ugh!..Errr!! AhAhAhAhAh!!
Nothing too small or grandiose to put you off your game.
oklahomo
Good idea, Joe, after we strip them of citizenship, they can maybe wear a special patch on their clothes.
Too bad we can’t take Lieberman’s jowls and use them to plug the oilcano in the the Gulf, along with the head they’re attached to.
ellaesther
@Michael: Uh, may I suggest a donation to his opponent in the next Senate election instead?
@kay: If I’m not mistaken, it’s not that Lieberman would exempt Israel from anything, but that Israel is exempted — and as someone who has some experience with American-Israelis serving in the Israeli army (some after serving in the American army) my understanding is that it’s not just Israel that’s exempted, but the armies of other states that a) allow dual citizenship and b) are not in a state of conflict with the US. If memory serves.
dm
In fact there is a Supreme Court case that specifically says it violates the Eighth Amendment to strip someone of their citizenship as punishment for a crime. It’s Trop v. Dulles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trop_v._Dulles
asiangrrlMN
@dm: Party-pooper! Throwing in your ‘facts’ and shit.
@ellaesther: Well, I liked it. I thought it highly creative.
Sentient Puddle
Ugh
It would really help if people who are wont to say stupid shit like this take a few minutes and research whether or not historical record will support their stupid shit.
For instance, my immediate thought was along the lines of “Hey, aren’t there constitutional issues with arbitrarily revoking citizenship from people?” So I looked it up!
Afroyim v. Rusk (1967): A United States citizen cannot be deprived of citizenship involuntarily. The only way you can lose citizenship is to renounce it. Preferably to someone who gives a shit (some government official, or something).
Vance v. Terrazas (1980): Clarification of above for instances of, say, treason. Congress may pass laws that designate certain actions as a means of renouncing citizenship. But even here, you have to prove that the offender knew that the act in question would be effectively saying that you’re renouncing your citizenship, and did it anyway.
So no Joe, any attempts to legislate and enforce this kind of shit would be incredibly difficult, at best. And you certainly won’t be able to strip citizenship of any domestic terrorists as of today, if that’s your intent.
Seriously…all this from five minutes on Wikipedia. Not that hard, Joe.
The Main Gauche of Mild Reason
Before you go hanging the BO producers, you should be aware that a subset of the population is genetically unable to smell androstenedione and related chemicals in sweat (which contribute somewhat to the strong sweat smell in men). I have a couple friends that I called on BO awhile back that seem to be legitimately afflicted by this.
kay
@The Main Gauche of Mild Reason:
I don’t think that’s better. It’s worse, because it starts to look like one of his fully-realized horrible ideas, like a BILL, rather than his usual on-camera fear-mongering.
Who’s going to charge and convict on treason? Him? Who does the appeal go to? Susan Collins? She got the basic facts wrong the last time out, with the Christmas would-be bomber, and then lied when she was corrected. Let’s not send it to her court.
Sentient Puddle
@dm: Hey, thanks for catching that one! Looks like it’s more succinct than what I found.
beltane
@dm: Activist court. An Earl Warren decision and therefore not legitimate in the right’s eyes. The Robert’s court could very well overturn that.
For all our sakes, I hope the new Supreme Court justice is someone who has magical powers over Justice Kennedy.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Mike Kay: Put fuckhead on it too. with an asterisk for idiot.
Mike Kay
what rights does a citizen have that an alien (resident, non-resident, illegal) doesn’t? I can only think of voting, contributing money to a political campaign, and ability to apply for some government jobs. Even then, if you’re convicted of a crime, you could lose your right to vote and hold those restricted government jobs.
Brachiator
I’m sorry. I’m missing something here. Why doesn’t Joe Lieberman like Carmen Miranda’s right? Does he prefer her left?
Oh, bananas.
El Cid
@rootless_e: Remember, Ed Meese got his fame by crushing down on the 1960s Free Speech Movement at Berkeley.
Ah, America’s right wing heroes. Such noble legacies, beating hippies to much public approval.
Phoenix Woman
General Paul Eaton on KO reminds John McCain and other Republicans on Capitol Hill that he and they all took oaths to defend the Constitution of the United States:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk3-OauUgrM
Thank you again, General Eaton. You did not forget your oath, as you showed again tonight.
Mike Kay
@beltane:
Please welcome Justice Megan Fox.
Martin
@Phoenix Woman:
I know they swore an oath to defend the Constitution, but still…
Ouish
I have a better idea. Let’s revoke Connecticut’s statehood. They can be a U.S. protectorate like Guam.
valdivia
@matt:
well played sir.
Mark S.
@kay:
Holy shit, I thought this was just Joe shooting the shit on Hannity or something. He actually has a bill saying all this?
Martin
@Mike Kay: However, I bet if we went with Justice Hot Oiled Rent Boy we could bring over both Scalia and Alito.
Mike Kay
This is what the Nazis did to the Jews in 1935 with The Reich Citizenship Law – they stripped them of their citizenship.
You would think even a Kapo like Loserman would find this abhorrent.
Mike Kay
@Martin: a friend of mine who has been gay his entire life (not simply latent), and he freaked out when he developed a huge crush on Natalie Portman. He started to wonder if in fact he was a latent bisexual.
stannate
Once again, thanks must be given to Harry Reid, who proclaimed that Holy Joe is with us (i.e. Democratic Party) on “everything but the war.” Next year, when Harry’s sitting alone in the dark watching TV in his garden-level condo located in Carson City, he’ll finally realize the futility of his earlier statements, prompting him to lunge out of his La-Z-Boy, only to sit back down again because nobody else is around and no one really cares what he now thinks. Meanwhile, Joe will be back in DC, watching Rambo 3 for the 79745th time, cheering lustily while Rambo shoots several Afghan fighters.
RadioOne
I think one of the biggest mistakes we’ve made is blowing up the right wing craziness constantly this year. This is exactly what Fox news has been doing since Obama was sworn into office, and it’s working. When we’re not the governing party, then it makes sense to ridicule the opposition party when they make crazy claims. But since most of us want the government to remain in Democratic hands, we should stop mocking the opposition, and start defending and promoting the things the Democratic Party did this past year for the 2010 mid-terms.
ellaesther
@Mike Kay: No, it’s not. No, really. It’s not.
I am entirely opposed to any suggestion that someone accused of a crime, nay, terrorist activity and/or serving in a foreign army be stripped of their citizenship. I am very much in favor of the regular and scrupulous Mirandizing of anyone and everyone suspected of a crime in this country — I think we should even Mirandize the non-citizens!
But saying that “this is just like 1935” is so ahistorical as to be almost too daunting to counter. Calling Lieberman a Kapo is likewise — not only is the casual use of that word in political insult truly beyond the Pale, but the Kapos betrayed their fellow Jews. I don’t think the Jews are the target of this particular bill.
The Nazis stripped an entire community of people of their citizenship in order to soften them and the broader community up for their eventual mass slaughter. Not one or two — or twelve or twenty — Jews that the Third Reich didn’t like or suspected of doing bad things. Every single Jew, by virtue of being a Jew, was being set up for murder.
These things are not the same. And I believe we’ve already had a conversation about false equivalencies today. They serve no one, other than those who might rather ignore us.
Amanda in the South Bay
Actually, in all pseudo-seriousness, I work as a cashier part time whilst in school, and customers always complain about how slow the lines are. Yet, they seem to have no problems writing checks (or paying with cash, which can also be time consuming-especially people who try to look for exact change to get rid of). It ain’t just the elderly-if in an ideal world everyone used plastic, the lines would go a lot faster.
Comrade Luke
So does the kid who ran on the field at the Phillies game lose his citizenship?
skippy
@ellaesther: except for shoving seven syllables into one beat at the end of the third line your song was great.
and the last line should be
“miranda! i’ll never stop stalking miranda!”
RandyH
I would have no probelem revoking people’s citizenship as a punishment for a crime. But until they’ve had a fair trial, starting with their Miranda rights being read to them, on through habeus corpus, a speedy trial with a jury of their peers and a GUILTY VERDICT from that jury, they must be considered innocent.
…And this basic rule applies to all “persons” whether they claim to be citizens or not.
Bnut
I wonder if we’ll ever have something worse than Nazis to compare things to. God I hope not. We’ll need a new internet rule. (However, if it were zombies, that would be ok.)
Chuck Butcher
@ellaesther:
Jumpin’ catfish in a swimming pool, Miranda has not spit to do with citizenship or whether you’re from the same damn planet, it is legal notification of the rights of those accused of crime in the US. If you’re from freaking Mars and get arrested for robbing a liquor store you’ll get Miranda Warning.
Bnut
@Comrade Luke:
Yes, for being a Phillies fan.
Mike Kay
@Comrade Luke: just his balls.
ellaesther
@skippy: Thank you! I think you may have uncovered why I felt the need to apologize for my effort. I’m embarrassed to say how long it took me to come up with it, seven-syllables-in-one-beat and all.
Michael
OT, but I’m watching Justified right now, and the dialogue in this hostage scene is inspired.
Out freakin’ standing.
Chuck Butcher
Back in the days when zombies were still eating our children some Senator in greyface advocated stripping them of their citizenship for zombizm…or something…
Bnut
@Michael:
I actually like that show. FX does good things. Watched last weeks episode, and, cover your ears children, Timothy Olyphant mentioning he’d rather stick his dick in a blender than look at some guy’s are collection made me spit up my food.
Bnut
@Chuck Butcher:
Arizona is trying to pass a law that amounts to “shambling while brown”.
Mike Kay
I wonder if this as ever been proposed before. Has anyone in the 234 year history of the united states proposed stripping someone of their citizenship for merely being a suspect to a crime?
Martin
@Comrade Luke: If every jackass from Philly lost their citizenship, the city would cease to be.
Mike Kay
@Bnut:
the yankees. surely, even the most literal person would agree, the yankees are today’s storm troopers.
Martin
@Mike Kay: Just to make a point here, in what way is this worse than killing someone for merely being a suspect to a crime? That actually happens with some regularity in this country.
Bnut
@Mike Kay:
Thems fightin’ words sir. And coming from someone who’s name is the same as a famous Yankees broadcaster, you should be more respectful of the greatest team of all time.
Kevin Phillips Bong
@Michael: Elmore Leonard (and a writing staff mimicking him) generates some of the best dialogue in the English language. So much fun to read, and if adapted into a screenplay by Scott Frank, to watch.
Martin
@Mike Kay: I agree. I mean, the Nazis were pretty bad, but the Yankees… shit, that’s some pure distilled evil right there.
mvr
Independent Senators from CT are pretty bad folks too. Perhaps we should try the suggestion out on them and see how it works before we extend it to others.
Mike Kay
@Martin: apples and oranges. deadly force is only allowed in self defense. you can’t kill someone for running a stop sign.
Bnut
@Martin: @Mike Kay:
This
fasteddie9318
I’ve got a related idea: how about if you quit your political party after losing that party’s primary for the Senate, you sacrifice your right to run for that Senate seat as an independent in the general? And can we make it retroactive please?
PaulW
Can someone get us statistics?
I need to know the number of cases in the past 9 years (since 9/11) where Mirandized cases were brought to trial where the suspects were successfully convicted of their crime(s).
And I need to know the number of non-Mirandized cases from 9/11 that were brought to trial successfully.
I have a feeling that the numbers for Mirandized cases are going to be a lot better than the non-Mirandized.
Warren Terra
@Mike Kay
I didn’t folllow the link, but JC’s blockquote doesn’t have Holy Joe saying he’ll strip the citizenship of suspects prior to conviction. But the US has no power to take anyone’s citizenship.
fucen tarmal
@RadioOne:
for better or worse, pointing and laughing is what motivates the donors. its also fun.
more importantly, its been decided that its more effective to buy the middle with ads and whatnot, than it is to systemically attempt to reason with them. understanding that the voters that are up for grabs are the least opinionated and involved already, reasoning with them might be like pounding nails with a flyswatter.
MattR
OT: But, take that Arizona.
slag
@ellaesther: Bravo! Yes to musical interludes.
Nick
@The Main Gauche of Mild Reason: Um, I’m hoping he means strip citizenship AFTER a trial, because when you go to court, you’re usually not the one with the burden of proof…that is proof that you’re worthy of a staying a citizen.
Cacti
Let’s not lose sight of the fact that the same politiical cadre who support this type of shit…
Are the same ones who think Corporations are people with strong First Amendment rights.
Mike Kay
@Warren Terra: I got that from HuffPo.
here is the text:
“Lieberman proposes taking away citizenship of suspected terrorists.”
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Warren Terra: The only way I know of is after a conviction of treason, as defined by the Constitution with necessary witnesses and such.
Martin
@Mike Kay: Really? Tell that to Oscar Grant, Sean Bell, Omar Edwards, Amadou Diallo, Erson Alexander Welchen, Orlando Barlow, Douglas Steven Cloud, Jeremy Runyon, and countless others.
People are killed all the time for being a suspect, even when unarmed.
Mike Kay
@Martin: don’t be pious. no one was killed for simply and only because they were a suspect. they were killed by trigger happy cops or wired cops acting out of a misperceived and even racist perception of self defense.
JasonF
Small nitpick: In general, I agree that it is unconstitutional to revoke someone’s citizenship as a punishment, and Senator Lieberman’s proposal is unconstitutional. In the specific case of this suspect, he is a naturalized citizen, and naturalized citizens can have their citizenship revoked under certain circumstances. Assuming those circumstances have been met, and assuming due process is followed, then we could revoke this guy’s citizenship.
ChockFullO'Nuts
Well, at least he didn’t suggest making them switch parties.
Dr. Psycho
“[M]aking war on the United States” is the only crime which is specifically mentioned in the text of the Constitution. Why is Joe Lieberman trying to interfere in the prosecution of TREASON??
Anne Laurie
And, since Dennis hasn’t asked this already — how many Treason in Defence of Slavery, I mean, Confederate-Republican defenders get ejected under Lieberman’s Law?
Martin
@Mike Kay: My point is that we don’t make nearly a big enough deal out of a widespread culture of responding quickly and too often erringly with deadly force.
Your outrage was over anyone had ever even proposed stripping someone of citizenship. Sure, that’s been proposed countless times. I don’t see it as any more outrageous than the death penalty. I don’t see it as any more outrageous as a society being numbed to the regular incidents of killed-while-suspected. Some of these people were suspected of nothing more than theft. Not even armed robbery.
I have deep respect for police. I like and trust my local police and I chat with them regularly. I have officers in the family. But there’s something wrong with the culture that is increasingly militarized, eager to taze old women during traffic stops, and too often eager to shoot rather than risk a theft suspect get away.
Church Lady
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OTUwNTU1OGVmZTUyN2VlOTNmM2Q3MjVmMThiZTg3MzE=
I apologize in advance for the source of the link, but it was the only place I could find a youtube of Lieberman actually talking about this. The Huffpost piece takes what he said a little out of context. You might want to watch it before deciding whether or not what he says is out of bounds.
WereBear (itouch)
From now on, I’ll be thinking: PROTIP OLD PEOPLE while I’m standing in line.
John’s sarcasm has been on an amazing roll of late.
JohnR
Get ahold of yourself – this is Lieberman here; what are the odds?
Jrod, Slayer of Phoenix
@Church Lady: Having seen the context, I can confidently say that it changes the meaning of what Holy Joe said not a tiny bit.
Perhaps you’d like to explain what exactly is in the context that Huffpo missed? You have to understand, as somebody who lives near the poverty level my malformed brain doesn’t think nearly so well as an upstanding WASP like yourself. So, please explain as you would to a small child.
Church Lady
@Jrod, Slayer of Phoenix: I didn’t take any type of stance on what Lieberman said. All I did was point out that the actual recording differs somewhat from Huffpo’s report. I’ll go back and listen again, but I don’t remember the words “suspected terrorist” or “accused terrorist” coming out of his mouth. The Huffpo writer formed an opinion of what Lieberman said and, I think, took what he actually said somewhat out of context.
Robert Waldmann
That would not make Miranda moot. Non-citizens have the same Miranda rights as citizens (try to find the word citizen or eqivalent in the bill of rights).
Obviously people can’t be deprived of citizenship without a trial. It isn’t even clear if Lieberman imagined any such thing. Although given that he’s Lieberman he probably did.
Calouste
@JasonF:
Citizenship can’t be revoked. What can happen, and what has happend with people like Demanjuk, is that the government finds out that they lied on their citizenship application (specifically in that case of course about activities in WWII) and that the application is retroactively declared invalid, thereby stripping the person in question of their citizenship.
It could possibly apply in this case as well, as the suspect has only last year become an American citizen and might have been connected to terrorists, a somewhat disqualifying circumstance, before that.
Jrod, Slayer of Phoenix
@Church Lady: First of all, Huffpo was reporting on a different set of remarks than Holy Joe’s Fox interview. Even so, he seems to be making the same point, except that he tells Fox that the loss of citizenship would be “automatic,” whereas Huffpo reports that he said the opposite. Now, knowing what an honorable and upstanding mensch Joe is, there’s no way he said two different things to different reporters, so obviously Huffpo is LYING.
At least I know where you’re coming from now. You don’t think Joe meant that an accusation alone would be enough to strip citizenship, because he never said “suspected” or “accused” terrorist. What he said was, as helpfully transcribed by the Corner:
It’s not that he wants to strip citizenship from people who are merely suspected of being a terrorist. He only wants to do it once charges are made. Thank you for helping clarify this super important distinction.
Brachiator
@Bnut:
Kodos the Executioner?
TenguPhule
Great! I call dibs to be on the firing squad executing former citizen Sarah Palin!
mclaren
It’s not just the media that needs to get over itself and refamiliarize itself with the Constitution — the bully worshiping toadies and groveling authoritarians on this forum need to refamiliarize themselves with the Constitution.
I have not yet heard any draconian unconstitutional “show me your papers” police state proposal than the craven cowards on Balloon Juice haven’t rushed to embrace.
Cops who taser people to death for no reason? No problem!
National biometric ID card that anyone with a job has to produce on demand? The Balloon Juicers love it, bring it on.
Preventive detention of suspected terrorists? Great stuff, the Balloon Juicers love that too.
Just 2 days ago I posted a link to the trial in which a cop who executed a drunk driver by shooting him 7 times in the back was acquitted, and when I pointed out this was unacceptable, the two-fisted red-blooded all-American cowards on Balloon Juice screamed that I was “an idiot.”
You people are so busy kissing the baton of the homeland security goon who’s beating you to death that you can’t hear the sound of the Constitution getting torn up.
It’s high time we all stopped blaming the goddamn media for this authoritatian adoration of the rapidly approaching police state. The media follow the ratings. The media merely reflects the will and desires of the American people, and it’s the American people who have fallen in love with torture and police state “show me your papers” goon squads and rampant sadistic use of tasers as torture devices and cops doling out unprovoked beatings of innocent citizens and black masked special forces thugs using “preventive detention” (AKA felony kidnapping without charges and without a warrant) on anyone some mugger with a badge in the Pentagon decides to torture and hurl into a dungeon.
The American people are the ones responsible for this headlong rush into a police state. The American people can stop it. Here’s a hint: you people are goddamn sure not going to stop this rush to a police state by hurling insults at me. Screaming frantic obscenities at me, or at anyone else who points out you people are authoritarian boot lickers, is not the solution. The solution to this creeping police state is to speak up, speak out, start demonstrating, march on Washington in crowds 2 million strong and demand your constitutional rights back.
Batocchio
I don’t think even Lieberman and McCain are this dumb. They’re just evil.
Yutsano
@Batocchio: More like pandering to a certain audience, one they think will keep them in the seats of power they both so enjoy. Walnuts’ tears shall taste so sweet should he lose to that idiot Hayworth.
@mclaren: Sigh. Not worth it anymore.
Lupin
Has anyone above pointed out that removing the US citizenship doesn’t automatically make one a citizen of Furrinistania?
You’ll be left with a stateless person on your soil, pretty much where you started, except you’ll now look like idiots.
kay
@Jrod, Slayer of Phoenix:
How long has this person been in the Senate?
These knee-jerk panic-induced laws are always terrible. Always. You see it in states (Arizona!) and you see it at the federal level too. I’ve gotten to the point where when I see a lawmaker standing up and bloviating on an individual or individual set of circumstances I’m immediately wary. I know stupid shit with unintended consequences is coming.
I would think the public would learn, and I would certainly think lawmakers would learn, and resist the temptation to fire back with a “solution” to every high-profile individual situation, but they don’t. Because voters love this shit. They love a “strong stance and clear-cut solution”, and they don’t admire thoughtful consideration or consensus.
There might be a connection, too. There might be a connection between those lawmakers who love the camera and reckless, ill-advised lawmaking, because it is always the loudest and most media savvy lawmakers who indulge in this stuff. Not the hardest working or the smartest, but the loudest and most-televised.
Va Highlander
I’m only 47, John. I’m not that old.
You can wait a few more mintutes in the checkout line and, after a smart-ass comment like the above, by God you’re gonna have to.
celticdragonchick
The legal view of trying to strip citizenship without consent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroyim_v._Rusk
The SCOTUS has decided this and the 14th Amendment forbids doing what idiot Joe wants to do. You cannot strip citizenship involuntarily.
estamm
Every few years, I rewatch ‘Starship Troopers’. It is really about the evils of right-wing fascism. One of the plot points is that only people who have been in the army can be ‘citizens’. The movie also makes the point that the only thing fascism is good for is killing bugs.
Annie
Citizenship can’t be revoked. If it could, we all would be eligible. I remember when I went with a good friend to her swearing in ceremony. The government official stated at the beginning that once they were swore in, they were the same as every other citizen of the US. NO DIFFERENCE. They were now Americans.
ericblair
@celticdragonchick:
Yes, thank you. This has been adjudicated repeatedly, and Holy Joe should know that the original case was to do with Israeli and American dual citizenship.
As for stripping people of their citizenship for crimes, besides currently being unconstitutional, two problems. First, you’ll probably leave them stateless, which is a violation of the UN Charter (not that Joe cares, I’m sure) and nowhere for them to go. Second, any nasty government will take that opportunity to gin up bullshit crimes and strip their political enemies of their citizenship so they can’t vote or run for office.
Another great, well thought out idea from Joe. Thanks, asshole.
Barry
The right runs off of freudian projection. In the case of Lieberman, his primary loyalty is to Likud; he is an agent of a foreign power, and as such is a spy and a traitor. Therefore, he assumes others are spies and traitors.
Svensker
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Nu uh. Joe wants to strip citizenship from any U.S. citizen who fights in a foreign army — unless that army is Israel’s.
twiffer
i’m sure it’s been mentioned already, but the rights one is reminded of via Miranda are not dependant on citizenship. they are granted to anyone arrested in the U.S.. if we didn’t grant these rights to everone in U.S. jurisdiction, we’d be able to just round up tourists, anyone on a work or school visa, etc.. and you know what? people would stop coming to this country.
so, by all means, if you think putting the U.S. on every foreign country’s travel warning list is a fantastic idea, continue to insist that U.S. law applies only to U.S. citizens. i’m certain that businesses that rely on foreign tourism, major universities and corporations that have a heavy dependancy on techs with H1-B visas (er, pretty much the entire financial industry) will be absolutely thrilled with such a decision.
par4
How about professional politicians that switch parties and the people who still support them.
Paris
Where do you deport these new people without countries to?
Svensker
@Paris:
That’s what Gitmo and Bagram are for — win win!
les
Not just this. Why is it that so many people–sorry, sorry, but in large proportion women–don’t even start hunting for the means of payment, whether cash, card or check, until the total is rung up? An amazing number of people apparently can’t anticipate that they will have to pay for their purchases, much less begin filling in a check. And they seldom seem to remember where they have hidden the billfold/checkbook/whatever.
chuck
There is no “out of context” to his remarks, just standard politician weasel-wording around the fact that he wants unilateral punishment against suspects without the bother of a conviction.
He’s co-sponser with McCain of a bill called the “Enemy Belligerent Act”. Go look it up. If I ever see him in person, I will call him a Nazi to his face.
Ray
To be fair, what Lieberman suggests might not be completely unconstitutional
I looked up the law on revoking citizenship (here). The key points are that citizenship can be removed if someone:
– serves in the armed forces of a foreign state if such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or
– commits any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction.
The second one certainly seems to apply to this case (bearing arms against the United States.) Of course, what Lieberman failed to read was the “if and when convicted by a curt of competent jurisdiction.” Since his rationale was to remove citizenship in order to take away Constitutional rights *before* the conviction, this is useless to him.
Tom Hilton
@The Main Gauche of Mild Reason:
That was my first thought as well. If it means we round up and deport all militia members, I’m on board.
(Obviously, it wouldn’t mean that in practice. A man can dream, can’t he?)
Jbird
What an unpleasant mercenary Lieberman has become – dependent now not just on the Republicans, but on the Republican fringe.
Stripping citizenship, indeed. If you want to restrict someone’s rights as a citizen, you convict the person of a crime and punish him or her through due process. It’s not an obscure aspect of our system; it’s right there in Amendment XIV, which even senators should be able to recognize.
It’s difficult to have any sort of dialogue with people who have such ignorance of the law of the land – or with people like Lieberman who display utter contempt for it, and know better.
mds
@Martin:
Naaah. That would be targeting Chief Justice John “Ignore the flames in my closet; here are the wife and children I purchased on eBay” Roberts.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
But people who cut me off in traffic really are guilty! Deportation only makes sense!